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[pintobean]

This message was self-deleted by its author (pintobean) on Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:13 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Warpy]

1. His better posts were passionate, his worse were intemperate

and he held grudges. So RIP.

[TeeYiYi]

2. I'm sorry to hear that. :(

TYY

[sabrina 1]

119. Me too ...

Seems like progressives are not really welcome here anymore. I guess, like so many Americans, he has had enough and was unable to hide it.

We will probably see more and more people disappear from what used to be Progressive Forums. But that is okay as they will and have, taken all that passion that they thought was shared by their party, into the RW. I remember when I thought that the internet was where the people had a voice. How naive that was.

And then I see the right wing posters who appear to be untouchable here.

[pintobean]

123. That's just crap.

nt

[sabrina 1]

138. No, it's not crap. I'm just saying what a whole of other progressive dems believe some of whom

have just moved on to other venues where they believe they can push a Progressive Agenda without constantly coming under attack, wasting their time, from right wingers who have invaded most Dem Forums. I enjoy taking them on, but a whole lot of people don't want to waste their time. I understand that too. I otoh, use them to expose the problem Democrats in this country face. And I learned long ago the real action is not taking place on internet forums. We were hopeful at one time that we could use this medium to change things, but no one believes that anymore as Dem forums were pretty much taken over. No problem there are so many other venues where people can actually make a difference and where it is more difficult for the infiltrators to take over.

I just view it all as entertainment at this point. No point in mourning what might have been.

[hfojvt]

197. it is crap though

since Taverner apparently was NOT PPR'ed for "being liberal" or "progressive".

He was PPR'ed for creating multiple sock-puppets and sending insulting messages to the admins.

I feel like Taverner is an old friend of mine, although he perhaps does not like me at all, and I, for my part, did strongly disagree with some of his OPs. I remember joking with him in the lounge, and wasn't he the guy who started a bookstore? We would seem to have that in common, and he was also, IIRC, a fellow Cheesehead.

But I cannot defend at all that kind of behaviour, the creating of sock-puppets and sending nasty emails.

I am not sure why his account was flagged for review, but he could have, should have, especially if he cared about staying (which he apparently did not) kept his composure.

[winter is coming]

208. His transparency page is showing. He got flagged for review because he had multiple hides

in quick succession. The hides weren't about his politics. Getting flagged could have put the brakes on a death spiral (and even prevented him from racking up so many hides that he'd be on "time-out" for months), but he reacted badly.

[bvar22]

463. 4 hides in the last 90 days.

Taverner Transparency Page:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=142485&sub=trans


Here is a thread with one of the hides,
which does seem to indicate that there was some Goading & Alert Stalking going on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023945165

I would caution other Progressive Posters at DU to look at this thread,
and realize that there ARE group attacks whose sole purpose seem to be goading and baiting a liberal poster into posting something that can be Alerted on,
and trusting the vagaries of the Jury System to score a "hide".

Alert Transparency would put an end to this.
I would be happy to sign my name to every single Alert I have ever sent,
and sign my name to every comment for the Juries I have served on.

---bvar22

[PowerToThePeople]

509. That is why I have stayed away from DU

After the whole 5 hides in 90 days thing, I decided to step away. This site has too many right wingers and they use the jury system to shut out progressive voices. I may continue to lurk from time to time, but I doubt I will be posting much, if any. I will have to find other avenues for my political voice. Hey, a socialist just got elected in my State, things ARE getting better.

Stay well Taverner, be strong and don't let the fascists beat you down....

[MrMickeysMom]

309. You guys are better at this nomenclature than I am...

Please explain the lingo, "sock puppet" and "PPR"… When I can once again in the future have more devotion to keeping up with this, I won't ask so often.

Thanks… MMM

[pintobean]

310. Sock puppets are additional accounts by a single member

PPR is posting privileges revoked, what we use to call tombstoned.

[MrMickeysMom]

430. Thanks, pinto bean...

I guess the language changes as fast as the social networking seems to. Last thing I knew, tombstoned described it well. And, then, sock puppets…

[Pretzel_Warrior]

386. PPR=posting privileges revoked

Sock puppet=creating additional usernames besides your original identity.

[Lasher]

355. Reminds me of EFerrari

We sometimes disagreed but she was a worthy and honest nemesis. I like her but I'm not sure she liked me back. She stopped posting, never to return, after having been attacked in an unjustified flamefest in META.

[seabeyond]

361. i liked her too. and no, she did not like me back. lol. but that was ok.

what was the flamefest? i am kinda remembering it.

or pm me please

[Lasher]

396. I can't link to it since META has vanished.

But I believe it was over something she'd done as a Forum or Group Host. She was accused of inappropriately using that role against a topic or person she didn't like. I found the thread too late to the pile-on to come to her defense.

It was a classy exit: No GBCW, she just showed up gone and didn't come back.

I did manage to track Elizabeth down after that - second hand since I didn't communicate with her directly. She's turned that page and she's doing OK. Her last post outside Meta:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=898241

[hfojvt]

367. dang, I did not know that

I thought she was great, and she seemed to like me fine. With Taverner, I sorta had the sense that he DISliked me, perhaps strongly. Not the same with E. Not that she necessarily counted me a friend, but did not actively dislike me either.

But I was probably strongly disagreeing with Taverner too, and perhaps acerbically.

Three days ago or so I was writing a post and as I prepared to hit reply, I noticed that the tone of my post was very snarly. It jumped out at me, and I questioned myself "what is with the tone here?" It was completely uncalled for, and I went back and took out the snark.

Quite possible I have posted some other stuff where I did NOT catch myself before posting.

I wonder now if that flamefest and fallout is what lead to the end of Meta, or a big part of it.

[Lasher]

399. On the subject, surely you noticed the passing of DKF, not yet a month ago.

I must admit I am not missing that one at all. In particular I couldn't stomach all the rightwing disparaging of our domestic social programs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023920003

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023926235#post48

[Adsos Letter]

429. RetroLounge is the one who started a bookstore, I think.

Several years ago.

[MrMickeysMom]

223. Case in point, I can think of one...

Well, maybe more than one, but I'm particularly irritated by what used to be called the dungeon (9-11) before it became "creative speculation"… Some people should have gone, but one who NEVER should have tomb stoned was Seems_Like_A_Dream.

So, I'm not sure DU's all the way "grown up" about progressive voices whose words will often "not be dug by others", if you know what I mean (and I believe you do).

[Blue_In_AK]

287. I can think of dozens.

All you have to do is go back in the archives and look at all the people who are no longer here -- or if they are, they've come back under a new name. Many of my favorite people are gone.

[hfojvt]

350. many/most of my favorite people who are gone

seem to have left of their own accord.

H2Oman is still around, but not posting OPs much
TimeforChange is gone, walked away
mythsaje is gone, walked away
from way back, Udokier walked away
Armstead is pretty quiet, if not gone
Sapphire blue died
as, I think, did NewYawker99

way back when I first started, in early 2005, I would read about people I liked being tombstoned and would search the archives trying to find out why. Every case I saw, had a good, solid reason. That, for one reason or another, they got really nasty.

I remember, for example, how Wonk flamed out. He got mad about DUers expressing sympathy for a FReeper who had lost a son (or some close relative). His argument was that people die all the time in this country, why should we care more about a FReeper relative than we do about anybody else. To prove his point, he started spamming DU with death notices. He was warned to stop. People who liked him were pleading with him to stop, but for whatever reason, he kept it up and kept it up until the axe fell.

Some were allowed to come back under different names, as I understand it, and read in other places. Dookus came back as MonkeyFunk, for example. But he was mostly a lounge lizard and not a GDer. LiberalLeftieLawyer came back as TangerineLabamba before she passed away.

And doubtless many others that I do not know about. Sometimes I read about these things on other sites, but then the question becomes - how do THEY know?

[KamaAina]

380. Lyric and Rhythm, KitchenWitch, Midlo

Rhythm checks in on rare occasion. Kitchy was TS'd.

The common denominator: All are staunch LGBT rights supporters, and were not known to be shrinking violets about expressing same.

Thank goodness for FB!

[Blue_In_AK]

382. Yes, after the mass name amnesty

some years ago, I was massively confused about who was who. I think someone made a list with old and new names.

I, too, know a lot of people who have walked away, many tombstoned, including those who went out in a blaze of glory, a la Walt Starr.

And does anyone know what happened to Old Crusoe/Saltpoint? I loved that guy.

[hfojvt]

384. I had that list bookmarked on DU2

but many of those people are no longer here.

These other name changes were re-admissions. Dookus was tombstoned, but then was allowed to return with a new name. Same with LiberalLeftieLawyer. She did not change her name, she was PPR'ed and then allowed to come back. Or perhaps sneaked back and was allowed to stay.

I think Saltpoint was tombstoned, but I may be mistaken. He may have passed away. Hard to keep up sometimes.

edit: whoops, no to both. I had read about him on this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3056346

Which never did say what happened.

[Blue_In_AK]

394. I liked OLL/Tangerine

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 05:06 PM - Edit history (1)

unlike a lot of people here. She was witty and sarcastic, two of my favorite qualities in a person.

[Puglover]

395. I really liked her.

But she liked me. If she didn't she could be a pistol. I miss posters like her a lot.

[Blue_In_AK]

402. She liked me, too.

We were just starting to get to know each other on a more personal level when she passed. I was crushed when I heard she had died and felt sad for quite a few days after. One of a kind.

[Puglover]

406. I read her book and loved it.

Got it used from Amazon.

[PeaceNikki]

397. I adored Annette. May she RIP

[Ghost in the Machine]

424. Yeah, I liked her too. I knew she was OLL after about a week of reading her posts...

I sent her a PM and told her I knew, but wouldn't tell anyone else. We used to talk a lot. It was a sad day when I heard she had passed on.

I know a few more that reincarnated a few times. One was TomInTib... Hid latest id is still active, though I can't tell the name as it may be seen as a call-out, but he hasn't posted since April 10th, 2013.

I read here a LOT more than I post, and you can pick up patterns, phrases and even the way someone will misspell a word, no matter what name they use.

Peace,

Ghost

[Puglover]

414. I have to be a name nazi.

She was OldLeftyLawyer.

[PeaceNikki]

447. To answer a question "how do THEY know?"

A lot of us become friends outside of DU.

Also, Dookus came back as MonkeyFunk and then got TS'd again and came back as RudyNJack before he passed away a few months ago. I am still reeling in shock over his passing. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023552428

Some of the absolute best people I know IRL have been TS'd from this place. Long-timers being banned from here is not necessaily an indication of anything other than you pissed off some people here or crossed some line.... here.

[Katashi_itto]

243. Agree. I find it hard to take DU seriously either anymore

[yuiyoshida]

393. But you have to admit...

There are some fun things here. I love chatting and reading about politics, and I may not be as smart as everyone here, but I learn things here, and I am able to post some things that some may not be aware about, like Asian culture and music. Posting documentaries has been really fun.. especially those about Dinosaurs!

You have to admit while there are some infighting, and the occasional battle with someone who is a bit right of us, this place gets rocking when the situation is right. I love DU...glad I was invited to join.

[Katashi_itto]

413. Oh very true!

[BootinUp]

225. just another day on DU, lol. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

254. Agreed.

Did she just say moderates will drive liberals to become RW? Or did I misinterpret? Lol. Just realized she meant real world.

[CreekDog]

130. oh come on

Dreamer Tatum was reinstated.

so obviously you're wr-, um...wait, what was it I was disagreeing with you on again?

[nomorenomore08]

195. Every forum needs the voice of contrarianism, don'tcha know...

But seriously, this sucks. Tav was one of the good ones.

[TeeYiYi]

159. Cliques and censorship...

...make me uncomfortable. PPRing people for no real good reason is unsettling...

As we traverse the rocky path to 2014/2016, if you find higher ground, fire me a DUmail. The next few political years are going to be precarious.

TYY

[sabrina 1]

173. Me too, TeeYiYi. It is unsettling. Progressives appear to be unwelcome in the Dem Party. I could

be wrong I suppose, but someone will have to convince me. I miss the progressives who used to post here. I assume they have found 'higher ground'. I too am seeking places where Progressives are welcome and not constantly under attack.

However, RL is probably where we Progressives are more likely to be effective.

Taverner was one of the good guys. It says a lot when a real progressive is considered a troll, while I could name a few here who are obviously right wing trolls continue to post without fear of being PPR'd. Maybe it really is time to move on to more effective Progressive venues.

[TeeYiYi]

220. Taverner's PPR...

...has been conflated into a supposed multi-sock carnival of cunning chicanery; when in fact, Tavener states on DUfacebook that he 'only created ONE sock.' A sock for communication in the face of suddenly finding himself banished. It is my understanding that he was honest about his intentions regarding that one 'sock.'

In that Taverner is a long time DUer, it is not a 'Twister stretch' to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his motives in this situation.

In the interest of honesty and fairness, it is my opinion that DU could use a little 'light of day' transparency disinfectant as we move forward through 2014 and on toward 2016. I say, "Make the super secret MIRT forum readable to all," so that DUers can observe the 'man behind the curtain' holding the ban hammer and not be relegated to speculating, with dread, the hypothetical intent behind his/her theoretical existence.

TYY

[Marrah_G]

251. MIRT would have had no say in this one

[TeeYiYi]

262. You don't believe...

...that MIRT's opinions and observations/conversations are considered by admin, when deciding the fate of a DU longtimer?

TYY

[Marrah_G]

264. No

The most MIRT can do when a long timer starts behaving badly is just call them to the attention of the admins, which frankly, any DUer can do. If MIRT had that power alot more people would be gone. I suggest serving a term in MIRT so you know what it is about.

[TeeYiYi]

277. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point...

I feel confident that the MIRT forum is monitored closely by admins when deliberating the fate of a DUer; particularly a long timer. You said yourself that MIRT alerts admins when they see a long timer "behaving badly."

TYY

[Marrah_G]

278. Anyone can send Skinner or Earl a note.

You don't have to be part of MIRT to do that.

Please serve a term in MIRT so you know what you are so afraid of. It's not what you have conjured up in your mind.

[Ms. Toad]

321. You seriously need to spend time on MIRT

if you think admins are hanging out there waiting for words of wisdom from the MIRT team.

It is not what you imagine. IMHO new members who are klutzy, but would likely eventually fit in here, do have reason to fear MIRT. I was constantly urging a slower trigger finger - and to wait for consensus.

But long term members - comments were mostly restricted to "Not ours," or "Not ours, but ughh. Sending a note to the admins." Or things along those lines. And, as it has been pointed out, anyone can send a note to the admins. In two terms I am sure I can count on one hand the number of admin posts in MIRT.

You can be sure all you want, but until you actually spend a term on MIRT, you are engaging in pure speculation.

[TeeYiYi]

409. Agreed; mine is pure speculation...

Ms. Toad, have you served a "term on MIRT?" I may consider it in the future but for now, my star has expired.

For the record, I've changed my opinion regarding MIRT forum transparency. I agree that it should remain behind the scenes.

I've also changed my view regarding the PPR in the OP. I received a direct link to the "shitsmokers" post this morning. There's nothing more to say after that.

I still maintain my opinion that the admins most likely correspond with MIRT when it comes to PPRing long timers. They may not be posting directly in the MIRT forum but I feel confident that they are monitoring it and communicating via DUmail when deliberating a potential long timer ban.

Thanks for your response to my post.

TYY

[Ms. Toad]

440. I served 2 terms on MIRT

There is very little admin presence in the MIRT forum.

When we received notice of a long term member having posts hidden (at least when I served we got notices of all hidden posts with TOS checked), the discussion was along the lines I suggested in my last post - mostly just "not ours."

Occasionally, when the same more than 100 post member came to our attention because of repeated hides, the threads for each of the hides (each hide gets its own thread) were linked together for reference, and the link to the most recent thread was alerted on to send it to the admin's attention. Usually those were members who either awoke from a slumber and posted up a storm in a very short time (and got past 100 quickly), or new members - same story - rapid posting and got past 100 too quickly to evaluate in the normal manner.

They certainly did not ask our opinion, or post in any thread, about any long term member in the 6 months I was on MIRT, and I was never privy to any DU Mail correspondence about PPRing long term members (and I don't believe any other MIRT member either was, other than as a general member of DU). (We did get DU mail of every PPR after the fact.)

If they were paying much attention to us, it certainly wasn't obvious.

[Agschmid]

441. On currently and would agree with you.

[hrmjustin]

281. I am on MIRT and had no idea he was suspended. We had no recent discussions of him this term.

[TeeYiYi]

289. Thanks, hrmjustin...

I believe you and appreciate your reply.

TYY

[hrmjustin]

290. Your welcome.

[winter is coming]

257. Then Taverner must be psychic because that sock was created a week before he was flagged for review.

The YellowSnow sock http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=308860 was created on 10/21 and Taverner was active until 10/29. MIRT didn't know he'd been flagged for review until he used the YellowSnow sock on 11/11 and we initially thought it was a troll pretending to be Taverner.

MIRT doesn't have the power to put anyone on review, and we only ban newbies. The "super secret MIRT forum" is accessible to anyone willing to serve a term, an experience I encourage every DUer to consider. The transparency you desire would mean handing trolls a set of tips about what they should do to be less recognizable, so I doubt that will ever happen. There's no oath of secrecy, though, so if you look back through the old threads in the Announcements forum, you'll see lists of MIRTers, past and present. Perhaps you trust one of them enough to ask what MIRT is like.

[TeeYiYi]

273. Perhaps he created the sock...

...when he realized that he was being alert stalked.

I don't know Taverner personally. All of my opinions are conjecture. I still hope that he gets reinstated.

Upon further consideration, I agree that the Host/MIRT forums should remain cloaked from public scrutiny. I do, however, still believe that admin considers the opinions and conversations held within the private forums when making ppr decisions.

TYY

[winter is coming]

274. "still believe that admin considers the opinions and conversations held within the private forums

when making ppr decisions"

If so, they hide it well. Far from baying for Taverner's PPR, the thread about his first sock was a mixture of disbelief, sympathy for the tough time he's having with his dad, and wishing he'd step away from the keyboard and cool down before he shot himself in the foot.

[Violet_Crumble]

267. There was definitely more than one sock...

There was the initial one where they posted in the Lounge and said they were Tavener, then not long after that one got nuked, another appeared. They're the two definite ones, but there were others after that which could have been, though only admin can tell for sure.

Believe it or not, I saw Skinner giving him the benefit of the doubt when the sockpuppet thing happened, and it's abusive emails he sent that tipped the scales. I think it's sad he ended up getting nuked, but I understand why Skinner and EarlG were given no choice in the end...

btw, as winter is coming has said, there's nothing super secret about MIRT, and I also doubt it'd become an open forum as it would give trolls tips on how to avoid getting nuked...

[TeeYiYi]

291. After further consideration...

...I agree that the MIRT/Host forums should remain out of the public eye.

Also, I'm sorry to hear about the abusive emails to Skinner and EarlG. That would definitely not be acceptable and I trust admin to make the right decision in that situation. When admin PPRs a long timer, I have to believe that they had good reason.

I didn't follow any of Taverner's posts leading up to his PPR. My first knowledge of it was in this thread. I just hate to see so many long time DUers being nuked as we head into the 2014/2016 election cycle.

Thanks for your reply.

TYY

[Pretzel_Warrior]

276. You are questioning motives, methods, and truthfulness of admins

With your comments

[TeeYiYi]

284. What I'm questioning...

...is the ability of alert stalkers to get the posts of long timers flagged for review.

I do see where you created a supposed statement of my intent out of whole cloth. Clever.

TYY

[Mojorabbit]

366. I feel the same way

I look at how far right the party has moved since I was a young woman and it is unsettling.

[intaglio]

335. Sock puppets and insulting e-mails/PMs are a damn good reason to PPR

No matter who does it. That sort of action is specifically covered by the rules and making exceptions just leave the board open to abuse.

[L0oniX]

347. Many are looking for higher ground.

[woo me with science]

182. Well said. And the swarming and disruption from corporate mouthpieces is not just evident at DU.

It is pervasive in previously liberal meeting places across the internet, which shows what a massive, orchestrated creation it really is.

It's simply creepy, and it demonstrates for people first-hand how sick and deep and pervasive the authoritarianism being constructed around us really is. We see it not only in the unthinkable mass spying of the United States of America on its own citizens, but also in the creepy, relentless disruption of liberal gathering places and the propaganda machine right out of 1984.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

286. You are witnessing the radicalizing of America's middle. Tired of idealogues

On both sides. Pragmatic governance is the key right now.

[woo me with science]

304. That's a really disturbing perversion of the words "middle" and "pragmatic."

Orwellian, even.

THIS is the distribution of wealth in which our "moderate" President advocates cutting our social safety nets and fast-tracking the Trans-Pacific Job and Wage Killing Agreement.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024025231#post12

There is nothing "moderate" about what is being done to this country.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2517049

[bvar22]

461. I agree.

That was one of the creepiest posts I have read at DU.

The "Radical Middle" has targeted mainstream FDR Democrats,
and relabeled them "ideologues" because they believe in minimum standards and Human Rights protections for America's Working Class?

Well, at least they are out-in-the-open about their goals.

[KittyWampus]

332. progressives who use sockpuppets to disrupt probably aren't PROGRESSIVES.

[woo me with science]

341. Chronic defenders of predatory corporate policy are most certainly not progressives. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

353. Way to change the subject

[woo me with science]

360. Au contraire.

It's all over the discussion. Some obviously prefer it not be discussed.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

364. The point is really that tenure here or bona fides as

A progressive don't give you license to act like a 3 year old. Taverner did and paid the price.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[woo me with science]

370. That's pretty funny considering that

there's a core group here who make a career of drive-by insults on liberals and rarely participate in any other way. Taverner's posts were passionate, but they were substantive.

There are some here who would be happy if DU consisted of a daily dispensing of the corporate administration talking points and little else, and they spend their time trying to disrupt and provoke.

DU used to have vibrant discussions about progressive issues. It was not unusual for posts to garner hundreds of responses and develop into wide-ranging discussions of liberal policy and how to enact it. The typical discussion on DU now is hijacked immediately by the familiar band of corporate posters insulting liberals and spewing the corporate line. Chronic posting in defense of predatory economic and neocon (now neoliberal) policies used to be grounds for an immediate tombstoning at DU, but the very same garbage is now not only tolerated, but protected, as long as a politician with a "D" after his name supports it. It is no surprise that so many good progressives have chosen to leave or vent their disgust at the Third Way infiltration of our party and this community.

There are multiple posters here who are chronically ruder and more disruptive than Taverner, and who never have contributed the quality of posts that Taverner did during his time here.

[sabrina 1]

373. That can't be the reason: 'to act like a 3 year old'.

If so, there are a whole lot of people who must be immune from having that standard applied to them. And worse, they don't even appear to be liberals. Their whole MO appears to be to attack the left.

So if the standard is 'acting like a 3 year old', then hopefully it will apply to those who appear to be here to promote Corporate policies and slam the Left, also.

I could even get behind that.

[cui bono]

536. That's what I was going to say. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

381. +1000. You Better Believe It!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I'm sorry to see him go...

I know he had issues, and I wish he'd found a better and less disruptive way to handle them.

Fortunately, I do see him on Facebook.

[NuclearDem]

4. That's unfortunate. Disruptive behavior aside, he actually stood for something.

Put the Underground in DemocraticUndergroud.

[woo me with science]

189. +1 His posts generally were passionate and substantive.

Meanwhile, posters whose participation consists of little more than drive-by nastiness toward liberals remain.

[warrant46]

345. drive-by nastiness

Seem to see that when topic of the election of 2016 comes up

[woo me with science]

371. Whenever liberals oppose predatory corporate policies. nt

[warrant46]

378. Seen that too

[defacto7]

401. This is an excellent reply.

Why do long timers who fall out of line get bumped, and maybe or not rightfully so, while so many drive-bys just drop their bombs and run... then get away with it? I'm sure it's easier to determine a problematic user when there is more evidence to convict, but to think an Internet forum can be be judged simply on legal terms is misguided. Well taught trolls or even middling trolls figure out what the balance of tolerance is very easily and will play it.

Someone has to decide to allow or deny for the preservation of the community, and I would rather see the drive-bys get dumped on more stringent terms than reasonable users who lose their way. A hand slap is more reasonable and tolerant for progressives and lefties who may belong here.

[cui bono]

535. Exactly.

There are several posters who have nothing to add but snark, who never argue policy or the merits of a post and, coincidentally, they all despise liberals even though some of them call themselves liberal, me thinks just to try to dilute what it means to be liberal. They don't even stand up for true Democratic party principles, but because they snark under the radar with posts that don't technically meet "hide" standards, they remain here so that they can disrupt and trumpet conservative policies and values. It's messed up.

[proud patriot]

5. Grief sucks

[Electric Monk]

6. Ok, while we're gravedancing, so has RZM, finally

Troll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=251375&sub=trans

my comment: Reichszeugmeisterei

Hitler Youth knives and daggers marked with «RZM»

[tenderfoot]

7. Now this is something to celebrate!

[pintobean]

9. I knew you'd like that

Did you see what he did in ATA?

[MADem]

31. Were they the same person, I wonder? nt

[Starry Messenger]

46. Inevitable, but overdue.

edit to add, my friend LostinVa and I called that one in 2010. That same week she got TS'd, and RZM bounced on here for three more years, defending The Bell Curve, the fake Regnerus study attacking gay parenting, and harassing people in PMs.

Good riddance.

[CreekDog]

111. White people have lost a loyal advocate

:crocodile tears:

[bullwinkle428]

117. +1000

[JimDandy]

174. Puleeez... Not this white person. I think you meant to say:

Racist people have lost a loyal advocate.

[BainsBane]

156. He repeatedly asked to be PPR'd

And the other night flooded ATA with requests that Skinner ban him.

[NealK]

213. Good riddance but I have the strange feeling that he's still around.

Must be my imagination.

[Vashta Nerada]

8. Based on EarlG's explanation, looks like he deserved it.

[Arugula Latte]

10. I will miss him. I thought his point of view often just cut to the chase

and told it like it was.

[Laelth]

11. I am sorry to see that poster go. n/t

-Laelth

[TeamPooka]

12. Once you start creating sock puppets accounts and personally insulting Admin...

there is no place to go but out regardless of your eloquence on certain issues.

[Scuba]

15. If this is possible, it should be corrected.

Do you have evidence that it is happening?

[Pab Sungenis]

20. It happened to me, too

One poster even commented how they had been called to serve on three juries on frivolous alerts against me. They finally found three juries in the middle of the night and I got locked out of DU.

This is also what happened to Taverner. And although the notification says that the review is "usually done within 24 hours" I was locked out for six days, and Taverner for over a week.

The lockout procedure also kicks you out of ATA and sending messages to the admins, so there is next to no way to resolve the situation. I finally thought of alerting in the notification. I guess Taverner didn't think of that.

Locking accounts temporarily might be a good idea for stopping spammers or trolls before MIRT can get to them, but as it's currently written it's open for abuse.

ETA: the comment I was referring to: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=11140

[uppityperson]

30. You can always email them rather them DU PMing them so yes, you can resolve the situation. Notice

in the OP about sending insulting emails?

[Pab Sungenis]

35. Not defending the nastiness

but still, the back door way he was gotten rid of in the first place is disturbing.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. What backdoor way?

You were reinstated, right? Taverner took a different approach to his flagged for review status, apparently, and that earned him a PPR.

[pintobean]

52. They discussed it on

facebook's DU group, if you're interested. I won't link, though.

Darkangel was flagged about the same time as Tav. She was recently reinstated, as well.

[Gormy Cuss]

54. So darkangel, Pab Sungenis, and Taverner were all flagged for review.

Two of the three have apparently been reinstated by admin. So the flagged for review status worked for the ones who didn't try to circumvent it.

What am I missing?

[uppityperson]

59. +

[pintobean]

65. That sums it up. /nt

[William769]

68. There was another one also.

"Old and In the Way" was flagged for review and has been reinstated.

[Gormy Cuss]

75. I'm sure it's annoying to be flagged for review.

I know that I'd be livid if it happened to me but hey, I spend too much time here and could use the vacation.

[William769]

80. I know the feeling!

[Skittles]

214. you want I should kick your ass and force you to take a vacation, Gormy Cuss?

JUST SAY THE WORD MY SWEET

[Gormy Cuss]

221. Word!

[Kaleva]

93. Wasn't trumad also flagged for review recently?

[Pab Sungenis]

100. Yep.

Forget how long it took him to get back.

[pintobean]

102. The sacrifices that he makes for DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023902265

[SidDithers]

103. I believe trumad was also flagged and reinstated...

I think he posted a thread about it a week or two ago.

Sid

[L0oniX]

352. !

[msanthrope]

368. Stealing that!! nt

[Pab Sungenis]

105. But if I, for one, hadn't spoken up

I probably would have just ended up "disappeared."

Even if there's reinstatement, it knocks people out for days or weeks. And if the stalkers get two more hides, it's a 90 day vacation. I expect the same people who stalked me before to continue and I will be automatically locked out for 90 days very soon. Even if I post nothing but "puppies are cute" the gang will rule. Watch.

[pintobean]

114. Many of us have alert stalkers.

Don't make posts that a jury will hide. It's that simple, Pab.

[Pab Sungenis]

121. A bloc of six or ten users at 3 AM

can populate a lot of juries.

[pintobean]

124. Try starting a thread about it

in Creative Speculation.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

297. Lol

[alcibiades_mystery]

458. ROFL. The nonsense people come up with!

Alert stalkers and 3am Account Review Cabals. Jesus!

[jberryhill]

502. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya

[Kaleva]

127. One can serve on a jury only once every 12 hours or more.

A block of 6-10 here at 3 a.m. might provide a majority on a single jury but then they wouldn't serve again for another 12 hours.

[Pab Sungenis]

129. I had a poster tell me they served on three juries

against me in a day.

[Kaleva]

135. I was told this in Meta (about the 12 hour interlude)

And I do believe that to be correct as the most juries I've ever served on in a single day is two and that's when I've spent the entire day here. From morning till late in the evening.

The most recent time that took place was the 1st of October when I served on a jury at 10:17 AM and then on another that day at 09:57 PM.

Edit: did that person who said they served on three juries for your posts in a single day PM you the results?

[winter is coming]

166. No, that poster said it was the "second or third" jury "in the last day or so".

And those "middle of the night" hides? These are the only hides you've got in the last 90 days:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1137&pid=32884
A Jury voted 6-0 to hide this post on Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:12 PM.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113732919
A Jury voted 5-1 to hide this post on Thu Nov 7, 2013, 12:21 AM.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=11178
A Jury voted 5-1 to hide this post on Thu Nov 7, 2013, 06:57 AM.

Perhaps you can point out which ones you believe are the result of malicious alerting.

[Pab Sungenis]

170. The 12:21 and 6:57am ones.

[uppityperson]

201. Call out hides are the result of malicious alerting?

[Pab Sungenis]

209. And yet posts accusing me of hating women

Are not hide worthy?

In the LGBT group it's common practice to point out homophobia elsewhere on DU. It's a protected support group for just those reasons.

The person who alerted on that post specifically followed me into LGBT to alert because no one in that group alerts on those threads.

And mentioning that someone has a history in a particular group is not a call out. It's stating a truth.

[Violet_Crumble]

216. How do you know who alerts on what posts?

The only post you know who the alerter was was the one in the Men's group, where I replied to that claim of alert stalking by telling the person who claimed it that the post I alerted on was the one and only one I'd alerted on and I wasn't in the habit of alerting much at all.

Are you now claiming I alerted on a post in the LGBT group where you called me out and falsely accused me of homophobia? Because you'd be dead wrong, just as you continue to be wrong when you imply I'm a homophobe. I didn't even see that post till after it was hidden.

[Ms. Toad]

324. I note that each of those are at times the board is pretty well populated. n/t

[PeaceNikki]

179. hmmm... I served on one at 11:46 this AM and again just now...

[Mojorabbit]

218. Is that new? I have served on more than one in a single evening. nt

[Ms. Toad]

323. I doubt the online population ever drops low enough

for 6-10 users to make a significant difference.

[petronius]

207. Kind of off topic, but small correction: it's not a 90 day lockout, it's until the oldest

of the five hides drops off the transparency page (i.e., until the number of hidden posts in the past 90 days drops to fewer than five). So if a DUer picked up hide number five 89 days after the first, the lockout would be one day. (Of course, someone who racked up five in one day would - at best - sit out for 90)...

[RiffRandell]

81. Oh fuck.

Seriously? WTF? Too bad I went for my physical Tuesday as I need some medical advice.

[pintobean]

177. Put some ice on it.

[Baitball Blogger]

336. Can anyone join the DU facebook?

Is it recommended?

[pintobean]

340. I've never tried.

I wouldn't want to.

[CreekDog]

34. I never alerted on you, but let's face it, you've posted sexist remarks and statements

you've referred to me as a woman, you've referred to my thread as sexist and it wasn't, you referred to its authorship as that of a woman. all wrong, but that's what you attempted to do in order to not have your argument that my post was the rantings of a sexist woman (it wasn't sexist and i'm not a woman, but that didn't stop you...)

then you used a safe haven group to attack another DUer.

and you call that alert stalking? look in the mirror.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113732919

[sabrina 1]

136. Is this important? I don't now you or the person you are addressing. I thought this forum was

about major issues that affect millions of human beings, not about personal vendettas between totally unknown individuals who have zero influence on the lives of Americans.

[CreekDog]

140. if you have an issue with what is being discussed, you should tell him to not start the topic

he posted something about his experience, if you don't want a discussion about it, i suggest you ask him to not start such a discussion.

now that it has begun, i will weigh in with my own take on the topic at hand.

[sabrina 1]

149. Was this comment meant for someone else? I am for complete and open discussion about

everything. Do you have a problem with that? I stated my opinion about what I believe is important and what is not. That is all. You are free to disagree. I prefer to discuss ISSUES rather than PEOPLE, and pretty much stated that. You appear to be more insular in what interests you. Fine, if people on an internet forum are more interesting to you than major issues that affect the lives of millions of people that is your choice and I don't recall requesting that anyone be silenced, including Taverner.

[CreekDog]

152. i was discussing the issue/post that Pab posted about

in direct response to him. it is as relevant as what he posted in the first place.

[Violet_Crumble]

211. Then why are you posting away in this thread if yr only interested in *issues*? n/t

[DevonRex]

247. Well, that standard doesn't apply to

Sabrina, you see.

[Number23]

293. Ha!!

I'm sorry, but that just tickled the hell out of me. That person just continues to (unintentionally) amuse.

SEVERAL posts in an obvious grave-dancing thread, stating without a shred of proof that it's because "DU and presumably the Dem party don't like liberals" despite the fact that's it's been plainly stated that this was over sock puppetry and abusive messages and then loudly states that she is only about "issues." Oh my goodness gracious.

"Issues!!"

[sabrina 1]

346. This is an issue, did you miss it?

[Puglover]

348. What is telling to me are there are really two types of posters in this thread.

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Those who want to discuss Taverner's PPR. Pro and con.

And then there are those who can be counted on to pop in and lob insults at other posters in this thread. In other words shit stirring. When you see that is the sum total of what these posters contribute to DU it makes me wonder why they are not on admins radar.

Because IMHO it's this kind of behavior that makes DU just suck.

Edit for clarity.

[adirondacker]

379. That's exactly how I'm reading it. Thank You! nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

425. +1

[sabrina 1]

431. I couldn't agree more. And you're not the only one wondering why some disrupters are not

the radar.

[cui bono]

537. +1,000,000

I threw in a few hundred thousand +s for your little "I got your back" pic in your sig.

[Violet_Crumble]

404. You said: ' I thought this forum was about major issues that affect millions of human beings'

I didn't realise Tavener's online activity affected millions of human beings. There ya go. Learn something new every day!

[sabrina 1]

432. I didn't know Taverner wasn't a human being.

One of the reasons I always objected to dehumanizing people especially on Progressive forums by using words like 'troll' and then once that has been established, treating human beings, who may for all we know, be undergoing some major trauma in their personal lives, discussing them as if they had no human emotions and as if they cannot read what is being said about them.

I agree with the policy that used to exist on Progressive forums that once someone has been banned, they should not be discussed anymore being that they are not able to defend themselves. It was a far more civilized and decent thing to do.

As for the issues I was speaking about it had little to do with Taverner, more to do with the position of Progressives in the Democratic Party and how clearly unwelcome they appear to be.

[Violet_Crumble]

448. So yr giving up on the 'major issues that affect MILLIONS of human beings'' line now...

Okay, but I'd find something a bit better than trying to pretend I was disputing that Tavener's a human being. Pabs is a human being as well, yet you chided Creek Dog for daring to reply to him.

If you object people referring to others as trolls, why are you doing it yrself in this thread?

"while I could name a few here who are obviously right wing trolls continue to post without fear of being PPR'd."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4035928


Another case of one standard being set for everyone else but yrself, I see....

I dunno, but if I was someone who was telling others off for not concentrating on major issues that affect millions of human beings, I'd not plant myself smack bang in the middle of a thread about someone getting nuked to do it, because I'd think a major issue would be worthy of its own thread...

btw, not too keen on grave-dancing threads, but this one isn't really one, as many posting had/have sympathy for Tavener. I felt bad for him right up till he sent those really nasty emails to Skinner...

[sabrina 1]

468. Here, let me help you:

One of the reasons I always objected to dehumanizing people especially on Progressive forums by using words like 'troll' and then once that has been established, treating human beings, who may for all we know, be undergoing some major trauma in their personal lives, discussing them as if they had no human emotions and as if they cannot read what is being said about them.

I know, you were going for a 'gotcha' moment, but failed. Even a Right Wing Troll is a human being and may be going through some trauma people are unaware of and no matter how much people may disagree with them, the practice of discussing human beings, AFTER slapping on a dehumanizing label, is definitely not progressive. Was there something you misunderstood about that?

I don't believe I said I never used the word, although rarely, to make a point, but that doesn't include speaking about them as if they were not human beings. See, it's not so hard to understand that there was no gotcha moment there. It would have required ME to have said 'I never use the word'. But of course that is not what I said at all, as most others here fully understood.

I hope that helps. As for your lame attempt to put words in other people's mouths, that was so transparent, I'll leave it to others who are more than capable of comprehending childish attempts at personal attacks to figure it out for themselves.

Btw, as a veteran of confronting the inventors of online personal attacks, I am completely immune to them. Want to know why? It demonstrates the sense of defeat and frustration in those who resort to them. So feel free to continue, I have no problem with them, even one as low as comparing any DUer to Sarah Palin,( see your followers )because the lower they go the more frustrated and angry I know they are.

And that makes me smile.

[Violet_Crumble]

470. I see the double standards just fine. I just don't agree with them...

So let's deal with this 'but they're human beings!' thing and a few others:

1. No-one's said that anyone isn't a human being. You can keep on running with it, but I don't think it's taking you anywhere.

2. You said you object to people being called trolls, yet here you are in this thread calling people trolls.

3. You talking about how much you think DU sucks now isn't a major issue that affects millions of people. Yet you told off Creek Dog for daring to reply to someone whose account was flagged for review and pointing out something about *why* their account was flagged for review that first time. I don't think Creek Dog ever claimed that anything in this thread was a major issue that affected millions of people, but you seem to think what you say is.

4. Words in people's mouths? I copied and pasted exactly what you've said in this thread.

5. Keep on smilin'

[sabrina 1]

471. I will! You can count on it.

I love these kinds of 'discussions' btw, unlike so many others.

'Slapping a dehumanizing label on someone THEN proceeding to talk about them as if they were not human, unable to read what is being said about them' and additionally, unable to respond in defense of themselves.

Nothing about not using the word to make a point. No gotcha moment, sorry.

I am for a rule that once someone is banned, that is the end of any discussion about them. We used to have that rule on Progressive forums and it was a good one.

Not having it leads those who become subjects of 'grave-dancing' to go somewhere else, and it's a big internet, to defend themselves as happened here. Had there been no further discussion of this or any other banning, the person who is the subject of grave-dancing threads would not feel the need to respond in such a way.

You did copy and paste my words and then interpreted them WRONGLY as it turned out. All I did was correct your error.

[Violet_Crumble]

472. Counting on it will brighten my day!

Really? You love these sorts of 'discussions'? I find them enjoyable in the same way as banging one's head against a brick wall is enjoyable. I'm just doing my bit to lift the post count to give Taterguy a higher goal than 500 to aspire to.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024040563

Okay, I get it. When you call people trolls, yr just using a word to make a point. When anyone else does it, they're dehumanising someone.

I see very little in the way of grave-dancing in this thread. Most people appear to be sad that Tavener went the way he went, and many acknowledge that personal things going on in his life were a big factor. But you don't seem to have read anything in this thread where he sent abusive and really nasty emails to Skinner. This thread hadn't even been started before Tavener went ballistic....

Thanks again for pointing out my 'error'. See you in Taterguy's thread. He needs yr help to reach 500!

[sabrina 1]

498. Do you realize how much you have further enhanced my creds here on DU?

Let me put it this way, there is a well known fact here on DU when certain people, a small group thankfully, decide to involve themselves in a discussion like this through the 'third party' system, I know everyone reading this knows what I mean, it immediately enhances the creds of the person they can't confront directly, but do it through what has become known as the 'third party' system.

And THAT was what I meant when I said 'I love these discussions'. All I have to do is keep them going, doesn't matter what the topic is, right or wrong, that little cheering section guarantees a huge jump in creds.

Thanks for the fun. It is so predictable now it isn't even worth betting on as we used to do! Lol!

[Violet_Crumble]

503. Psst. Bragging about yr perceived DU cred isn't an issue affecting millions of human beings...

In fact, all yr post contains is having a go at DUers you don't like. Guess what? I don't care who you like and don't like. As much as the whole DU high-school cliché thing appeals, and I'd so love to hang out with the kewl kids, I have this terrible habit of truth-bombing that makes me unpopular, no matter how much I could brag about my LW cred. And having spent most of my DU day popping into the I/P forum with smartarse asides about something someone else said in the thread, I can tell you for a fact that the whole scoring cred points doesn't work for you anymore than it does for the one I saw ranting about how evil the UN and Cuba is.

And I'll have you know anyone who compliments my sig line like zappaman did is a fine person regardless of yr dislike of them. Hmmmpf!

[sabrina 1]

505. ....

[zappaman]

519. Some folks just aren't worth replying to.

[Number23]

433. I'm sorry, but you just gave me another good chuckle. And the outraged sanctimony of a few others

did as well. And it truly does explain alot that there are apparently a small handful of posters in this thread that think that a half dozen posts about a person's tombstone affects "millions" and that it's the people who are kind of laughing at the silliness of all this that are making this place suck but not those pulling accusations out of their hinies in their rush to slime other posters, the owners of this web site, and the Dem party overall.

This thread is simply legend.

Edit: And after seeing exactly what Taverner wrote on Facebook about the admins here, anyone who doesn't have an issue with such vile, cruel language is a rare and special person indeed. I didn't even know much about that poster, but the folks waving his banner, pointing fingers at other posters, and crying over his tombing (not to mention his posts on Facebook) make me think that his leaving was probably long overdue.

[Violet_Crumble]

449. Thanks...

My favourite is when folk who've only been here since 2008-9 pine after the Good Old Days of DU when things were really progressive and it was all sunshine and happiness. They lament the loss of 'true progressives', even though they don't seem to be aware that people have always moved on or been tombstoned and more people join, which is the way most discussion forums work. And I hate to break the news to them that back when I joined DU in 2002, things were little different than they are now. Admin and the mods used to weed out the trolls, some surviving longer than others, and there were a few DUers who'd behave as though anyone they considered not as progressive as them was a RW troll.

Yeah, I went from having a fair bit of sympathy for Tavener just after he reappeared with his sock, to losing all sympathy when I read what he'd emailed to Skinner. That was really inexcusable...

[zappaman]

478. Thank you for pointing out the endless hypocrisy by the usual suspects

who just love to tell us how they are so progressive while everyone else on DU doesn't come close.

Hope everything is well down under and damn, I love your sig line!

[Violet_Crumble]

480. Thanks, zappaman. That was such an obvious example...

The purity test type stuff does tend to annoy me.

I'd forgotten about my sig line. I loved the Cult and love the Fooeys, so it really appealed to me

[Number23]

483. I just read your exchange upthread

I think we should all be honored to have such a "wordsmith" amongst our midst, someone who believes that they can twist and turn any sentence into something that conforms with their apparent view that they are a wise, caring and/or benevolent person. Even when openly, BLATANTLY caught being hypocritical and/or dishonest, it's something beyond their control and only the shortcomings of the person who caught the dishonesty that is at fault, and not them.

If they gave out medals for this type of Grade A Fuckwitter.... I mean, Wordsmithery, I know who I'd nominate, hands down.

[zappaman]

485. "Fuckwitter"?

[Number23]

487. That was a typo!

[sabrina 1]

506. Lol!

[Bobbie Jo]

462. Bizarre, no?

Why is it when I read her posts I hear the voice of Sarah Palin, dropping completely unrelated platitudes all over the place??

The total lack of self awareness on display here is priceless....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3929449

[Number23]

482. In all honesty, I think the Palin comparison is unfair

to Sarah Palin. And again, I say that in all honesty.

[pintobean]

489. Was it you that got a bunch of crap

from S1 about not having anything in your journal? I remember that happening in Meta, but I don't remember who it was. Only good DUers keep journals, don't you know.

[zappaman]

492. Hmmmm...

There is one DUer who seems to think having a journal makes their opinions more valid than others...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4042770

[Bobbie Jo]

499. lol

Yeah.....

and I didn't do my math homework, either.

[sabrina 1]

507. You really think that highly of Sarah Palin?

Unusual for a Dem to compliment that woman but nothing surprises me anymore!

[Bobbie Jo]

511. No

I think she's a complete idiot.

Weird, that you would twist that into a compliment. It wasn't....not even remotely.

[Skip Intro]

148. +100.

You are wasting your time with that one, btw.

[Skip Intro]

145. Hey CreekDog, not EVERYTHING is about YOU.

[pintobean]

151. Yes it is

[Skip Intro]

176. lol. n/t

[CreekDog]

249. Aren't you busy reenacting the Battle of Fort Sumpter or something?

[Rex]

255. LOL!

Series!?

[Cali_Democrat]

268. LOL

[CreekDog]

230. Are you saying this isn't about me?

you hate being called racist, one would think you'd hate it when I'm called sexist against men (and called a woman by Pab...)

Pab Sungenis (9,598 posts) Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:35 PM

Young women, are you upset you'll have to pay for Viagra

and prostate exams when you buy insurance?

Just curious, since you seem to be using insurance to spread your misandry here on DU today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023940422

CreekDog (38,643 posts) Mon Oct 28, 2013, 02:13 PM

Young Men, are you upset that you'll no longer be able to get health insurance cheaper than women?

for example, there's a low coverage policy with pretty gaping holes that costs just $63/month for men and $93/month for women.

one of the reasons that plan was cheaper was because you are male.

how do you feel now that you'll have to pay the same amount as women for health coverage?



highlights of the Kaiser Basic plan:


Outpatient Services
Office visit:
Not covered
Lab, imaging, and testing:
Not covered
Outpatient surgery or procedure (in doctor's office):
Not covered
Outpatient surgery or procedure (in hospital-based setting or ambulatory surgery center):
$500 copay

Inpatient Hospital Care
Inpatient care:
$500 copay per day

Maternity
Delivery and postpartum care:
Not covered

Emergency Care
Emergency Department:
$250 copay
Ambulance service
20% coinsurance

Prescription Drugs
Generic drugs (maintenance/other) (up to a 30-days supply) :
Not covered
Brand drugs (up to a 30-days supply):
Not covered

Other
Transplants and related services:
Not covered


details at:

https://kaiser.healthinsurance-asp.com/expressweb/plan/ViewPlanDetails.action?productPlanKey=PSUI32973

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023938561

[TeeYiYi]

87. I noticed...

...when that was happening to you. I'm so glad you survived it.

It looks like Taverner had no way to communicate other than to create a sock. The sock(s) ended up costing him; plus, whatever he said to the admins out of frustration. That sucks. I hope they reinstate him.

Finding out about datasuspect was also a surprise in this thread. Maybe the Meta forum needs to come back for awhile, as a potential way to stay abreast of and outmaneuver the stalkers.
The path to 2016 is going to be a bumpy ride.

TYY

[uppityperson]

95. He communicated with them through emails, like it says in the OP. And having multiple socks over the

last little bit sure didn't help either. But to address your first point, yes. He did have a way to communicate and he did communicate with Admin. I wish him the best, and am sorry to see him go.

[TeeYiYi]

131. I wonder if...

...different people react to perceived bullying differently?... "multiple socks over the last little bit" sounds like a panic reaction out of desperation on Taverner's part.

I don't know Taverner or any of the others from a hole in the ground but I wonder if finding yourself shut out and isolated from a place you've called home for over a decade, might not be disconcerting; disorienting at minimum.

I've read that multiple people were "flagged for review" and that 'some of them were reinstated.' That kind of sounds like the popular kids decided to do some hazing. And by "popular kids," I'm referring to the MIRT forum.

I don't have access to the MIRT super secret forum so I have no frame of reference. I sincerely wonder if the "MIRT super secret forum" should have just a smidge more transparency; ie: everyone logged in can look but only MIRT can contribute. The idea that there are DUers making decisions behind closed doors feels a little shady.

I don't know... Maybe I'm up in the night, but as we head into the upcoming elections, I wonder if a little more transparency might not be in order.

Thanks for your reply, uppityperson. I appreciate your input in this matter.

TYY

[BainsBane]

178. Here is what happens

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

A flag occurs if a member has multiple hides in a short period of time. That standing is imposed by the software. Once that occurs, the administrators are, according to Skinner, In a position where they have to decide whether they want the person around. A couple people have been reinstated quickly, a couple of gun trolls banned permanently, and others left in flag for an extended period because the administrators can't bring themselves to ban or reinstate them. DarkAngel has been on flagged for review for 2-3 Weeks now. Taverner decided to react hostilely, despite being on flag for less than a week. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that insulting the site owners is not going to help your case. It has nothing to do with his being more progressive than anyone else.

[TeeYiYi]

259. Thank you...

...for explaining the process.

It is my opinion that talk talk talk talk talk within a host or mirt forum can have a snowball effect on the intended target. I realize that only admins can ppr a longtimer but I have no doubt that the admins are influenced by PMs and the conversations held within the mirt forum hallowed halls.

Thanks again. I appreciate your explanation.

TYY

[BainsBane]

263. If that were the case

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Taverner would not have been PPR'd and some others who were reinstated would not have been.
MIRT deals mostly with members with under 100 points. We also get hides that are 6-0, which aren't that many. We have nothing to do with the flag process. I myself didn't even know Taverner was flagged until we had to deal with his socks.

[Blue_In_AK]

181. I thought MIRT was just for trolling newcomers.

[winter is coming]

190. It is. MIRT doesn't have the power to ban long-termers or to flag anyone for review.

Mostly, we spend our days banning the same handful of spammers and zombies over and over again. I encourage anyone to try a term on MIRT. It's an eye-opening experience.

[JimDandy]

196. I think that's a good idea. Sort of like ATA. n/t

[winter is coming]

199. Hmm, so you think we should tell all the spammers, trolls, and zombies how we recognize them?

The cavers will love that.

[JimDandy]

210. Never served on MIRT.

But if there are comments that are security sensitive, then maybe just those comments can be hidden.

What disturbs me is that flagged posters are not all being treated equally--the length of time on flag status should be the same for everyone. If it's supposed to be 24 hrs, then taking 2 to 3 WEEKS appears to be punitive rather than adjudicative.

[winter is coming]

215. MIRT has nothing to do with that, though. That's strictly an Admin call.

And our non-sensitive threads are merely things like, "Hey, I won't be around for a few days" or "Had a bad day at work".

Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure that everyone can/should be flagged for the same amount of time. If you've got a long-termer that you would like to re-instate but they got hidden in the first place for having a meltdown, you don't reinstate them while they're still in rage mode.

[JimDandy]

231. Then set it at 48 hrs, if it's actually meant to be a cool down period.

Whatever the reason for it, the time should be the same for everyone. I can understand the need to judge people's actions differently depending on circumstances (that's why I'm adamantly opposed to mandatory sentencing), but things like time till arraignment (adjudication of a flag, in this case) should always be the same for everyone arrested (flagged).

[cyberswede]

227. Admins make these decisions, not MIRT members.

You should volunteer for a term - then it wouldn't seem so mysterious.

[TeeYiYi]

244. You believe that...

...admin's decisions are NOT influenced by MIRT and the subsequent conversations that are held within the MIRT and Host forums?

I suppose I could 'fake host' a forum or group for access to the Hosts and MIRT forums but it would be a dishonest gesture on my part. I don't have the time or inclination to be "Charles in Charge."

My opinion of the secret forums: "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Thanks, cyberswede. I appreciate your input.

TYY

[uppityperson]

295. The only way you get into the MIRT forum is if you are on MIRT. Volunteer and see wheat

it is all about in there. The posts on Taverner were expressing sorrow over his dad and that it is too bad he posted what got hidden. Admin was trying to let him cool down and reinstate him but he just would not or could not stop. To say MIRT's wishes were taken into consideration may be true in that Admin really tried to give him time and chances.

If you want to see what happens in the MIRT forum, volunteer. You would be quite surprised it sounds like.

[warrant46]

450. `

[cherokeeprogressive]

153. I beg to differ on your second and third paragraphs.

Being locked out of ATA and being prevented from sending messages through the site to the admins DOES NOT prevent you from resolving any "situation", should the situation you find yourself in be "resolvable".

Look at the bottom of every DU page. There's a link called "Contact". It's underlined. Following it you will find, at the bottom of THAT page, a section titled "The DU Administrators". There you will find DIRECT email addresses for Skinner, EarlG, and Elad. Direct mailto: links.

How do I know this? In 2008, after the election and the Prop H8te bullshit that happened in CA, there was a poll. I believe it asked a question something like "do you support gay marriage?". Anyone who has followed my posts here since 2005 when I joined knows I have a gay child. I clicked the wrong answer by mistake, submitted my answer, and was immediately banned (it's hard to read the gravedancing... hurtful and mean). I traded emails with Skinner personally over the next few days to a week, and he made the decision to reinstate me (much to the dismay of some).

There's NO reason for socks, no reason for bullshit. If you have a case, make it. Make it by talking to TPTB.

[Renew Deal]

258. How did the alert system force him to create sockpuppet accounts and attack the admins?

That's quite a flaw in the jury system.

"Taverner created multiple sockpuppet accounts for the purpose of disrupting DU and sent a series of insulting emails to the Administrators."

[Pab Sungenis]

269. The sockpuppet (only one) was created

to post an explanation of what happened. He knew that he was not going to be let back in, so he forced the issue. He has shared his "requiem" elsewhere.

He's also posted the E-mails he sent to Skinner. Two went ignored. The third asked how much Skinner was getting from the DNC for running this site and accused him of selling out.

The alert system froze him out to begin with, and set in motion the actions that followed.

[winter is coming]

272. That particular sockpuppet was created 8 days before he was flagged for review. n/t

[pintobean]

339. That means you believe Taverner over admin.

I've seen Tav fabricate a lot of things over the years. I don't put much stock in his word.

[Pab Sungenis]

357. I wouldn't if

I hadn't been in a similar situation, along with other "controversial" DUers since the soft PPR came into being.

[pintobean]

415. You were put in time out.

It's over. Maybe you should quit whining about it and move on. Tav threw a shit fit while in time out, so he got expelled.

You both seem to want to blame somebody or everybody else. You are responsible for your own actions, as is he for his. All of us are.

[pintobean]

419. Dude, that facebook group is poison.

I see people over there advocating that alert stalking you keep talking about.

Eta:

[Tarheel_Dem]

16. LOL! Did the group make him write insulting emails to the Admins?

My question is, I wonder if they got 'em all?

[Posteritatis]

37. I start undergoing sympathy failure when multiple sockpuppets show up. (nt)

[Chan790]

71. I dunno.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." -H.L. Mencken

In the face of some absurdities, like something out of a Camus novel, sockpuppetry becomes the only sane response to ongoing insanity. Of course, there's also Sartre's dim view "Hell is other people" but nobody who honestly believed that would be posting on DU.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

265. Wow. Philosophy. I'm impressed.

[defacto7]

407. I like your comment... n/t

[Nye Bevan]

76. Surely the best way to thwart these roving gangs of "alert stalkers"

is to only create posts that will not be hidden by juries?

[Pab Sungenis]

98. Everyone on here is offended by one thing or another

and everyone on here says something that pisses someone else off.

This lets mob rule control things.

[CreekDog]

298. We've given the word mob a bad name

[BainsBane]

160. Blame it on everyone else

That's a good way to ensure it happens again.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

193. he should have been "hard PPR'd" a while ago

[CreekDog]

299. from what I've heard, that word should be used under advisement

[Rex]

320. Not really, going off on any websites admins is a great way

to get banned from that site. It sounds like if he would apologize to them (which won't happen) they will let him back on.

[pintobean]

456. Gose/gander. You're calling in the Facebook troops

Since I'm soft PPR'd I can't alert, but maybe some of you would like to? And seabeyond's constant callouts of me today?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2426871461/permalink/10151990723166462/

[pintobean]

467. Threatening DUers from Facebook

while in your second time-out.

Pab Sungenis
Guess what, pintobean and seabeyond ... Live by the alert gang die by the alert gang.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2426871461/permalink/10151992317371462/

I'm not part of any alert gang and I don't believe I have ever alerted on any of your posts. I just find your behavior and your conspiracy theories hilarious. You are welcome to alert stalk me if, or when, you come back. It looks like you're scheduled for another time out around the holidays and well into the new year.
I hope you enjoy your Facebook experience while you're in exile.

[Number23]

488. How do you know how long someone is in time out? This thread has been illuminating

I never even knew "time out" existed until this thread.

[pintobean]

490. His profile says "flagged for review".

That's the only way it can happen right now. It happens when someone gets too many posts hidden too quickly.

Come Dec. 24th, anyone with an exposed transparency page will be in time out until it's no longer exposed.

Here's Skinner's thread about it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=2863

[Number23]

491. Gotcha. And you said that person was gone until winter because they are flagged until

the first of five hidden posts goes away. And since that person's first hidden post was the 6th of November, that means he won't be posting until the 6th of February, right?

[pintobean]

493. That's depending on how long he stays flagged

Admin hasn't explained how that works. So far, it's ranged from a couple hours to a few weeks. I would assume it depends on the poster's history and how pissed admin is. Pab had been flagged for quite a while and was reinstated. It didn't take him long to get flagged again. He could be reinstated again before Dec. 24. The other part you have correct, but it could go beyond Feb. 6 if he gets reinstated and gets more hidden posts between now and then.

Some people step in it once in a while. Pab seems to enjoy wading in it.

[seabeyond]

494. i was flagged a couple weeks ago. i got a couple hides within a couple hours.

i was pissed about the hides. i thought bad hides. but, when flagged, it was what it was. i was not mad about that. i went off du. i was flagged in the afternoon. reinstated the next morning.

i think that administration take the time to see if there is an issue, or if there is more to it. and as pinto says, approaches it in consideration.

it was not a big deal.

[Tarheel_Dem]

14. I'm all broken up!

[PeaceNikki]

17. Bummer, but I think he was done here. See ya around, Tav. My friend datasuspect, too.

[pintobean]

22. Wow. I didn't know about datasuspect

Do you know what he did to get PPRed?

[PeaceNikki]

24. It was stuff in an Incognito thread and bullying and shit.

I don't agree with all of his positions, but he's a good man. And Skinner is wrong. He was never a troll.

[kestrel91316]

116. I dunno. He wound up on my ignore list for being a complete asshat about something or other on

more than one occasion.

[PeaceNikki]

118. Neat!

[Electric Monk]

23. Oh, that's one PPR I didn't see coming

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=142161&sub=trans

[PeaceNikki]

25. Skinner is wrong. He was never a troll.

[sabrina 1]

155. I agree, he was a Progressive Democrat who obviously had had enough of the infiltration of

this party. And I understand his final frustration. A big loss to a Liberal Forum. And cause for reflection as to what these forums are really all about. I know that a lot of Progressives who I respected have already moved on. I hope Taverner continues to fight for Progressive issues. I am sure s/he will.

[PeaceNikki]

158. For sure. Some of the best people I know IRL have been banned from DU.

meh.

DU's loss.

[intaglio]

387. Having read what he put on the Incognito thread

He was no progressive, he was someone who believed that abuse and bullying were necessary to success and who believed in "alpha male" (type A) environments. Those sort of beliefs do not make him progressive, they make him a closet Libertarian and a believer in the fraudulent psychology pedaled by the Men's Rights Movement.

[morningfog]

313. He had been banned at least one other time, maybe more.

"Troll" is a broad catch-all for a poster who posts to disrupt or is just a total asshole when they post. It has nothing to do with political ideology or how good of a person they are. If they can't respect the community standards and intentionally stir shit up through personal attacks or assholish behavior, they are a "troll." It's about whether they are here in good faith to be a constructive addition.

[PeaceNikki]

318. I was fully aware of the meaning of "troll" when I made that statement. But... thanks?

[morningfog]

426. Then you obviously weren't fully aware of his posting history when you made that statement.

One or the other.

lol.

[Kali]

33. oh no!

I know a lot of people couldn't handle his persona, but I really liked him. Not enough blue collars around here.

[PeaceNikki]

36. Yeah, he added 'flavor' here, that's for sure.

[tenderfoot]

70. If datasuspect wasn't a troll, then I'm the Pope.

This wasn't trollish at all - he's just being Kooky!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3847701

[PeaceNikki]

73. lol, whatever, n00b.

[tenderfoot]

78. Been here since 2003 - new profile - N00B

Your friend was a troll and I'm glad he's gone!

[PeaceNikki]

84. lol. you still don't know him, but carry on with your bad self.

[tenderfoot]

96. I don't have to - I can simply go by what he posted here and...

I'll rely on info from other DU women that have received some rather disgusting messages from him.

Doesn't sound like there's much to get to know. Unless your into getting suggestive private messages from someone that finds the need to attach 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre" clip art to their profiles.

lol

Perhaps you know this person IRL and perhaps they are good people. However, online. Your friend is a douche and a really gross one I'm told.

[PeaceNikki]

104. OH MY GOD NOT TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE!!!!11

I'm not going to argue with you. I am not here to valiantly defend his honor. Whether you personally like him or not, he was part of this community for almost a decade and I thought some would like to know.

Have a great night!

:passive agressive lil wavey guy:

[tenderfoot]

110. Glad you came to the defense of your trolly misogynisty caddishy mate.

I'm sure he's activated a sock by now.

[snooper2]

183. You should probably edit some of your posts

Calling people a feminine hygiene product is kind of frowned upon-


Unless you are a member of Garfunkel and Oats, which I SERIOUSLY doubt LOL

[MADem]

169. Tenderfoot did do a name change.

I asked the question awhile ago, and got a very polite answer.

[PeaceNikki]

172. Whatever. I replied rudely to a rude response. Especially after I'd qualified he's a friend.

Tit for tat and shit.

[tenderfoot]

180. Your friend creeped out a friend...

that is not tit for tat - it really happened.

[PeaceNikki]

185. now who's being caddish?

go away. you've stated your opinion, just move on, ffs.

[Agschmid]

139. Classy Nikki...

[PeaceNikki]

143. thanks for your valuable input!

it was far classier than her reply to me.

[Agschmid]

147. Just call it when I see it.

[PeaceNikki]

150. then you should get your eyes checked.

[Agschmid]

186. Just for transparency for all...

This was her original reply to me above...

150. then you should get your eyes checked.
who the fuck are you?

Sure was a good edit if you ask me. I don't have to do much to prove my point around here huh?

[PeaceNikki]

188. And read the explanation. G'head. lol

That's super cute how you only have 'policed' my replies here. i don't know what your beef is with me, but get the fuck over it.

[LittleBlue]

18. I called it a few months ago

Taverner, if you're reading this, I told ya so!

[MrMickeysMom]

19. That's too bad, but why does this ever merit grave-dancing?

I still don't think the world's a fair place, especially when you can't have a conversation about certain "things" around here without them being placed under stupid folders entitled, "offbeat".

There are some real jackasses in those hills, brother… I've only known one to be rightfully go to tomb-stone territory.

Oh, well…

[pintobean]

28. I didn't post it for grave dancing

He was a long time DUer with a lot of posts. I just thought people would want to know.

[TeeYiYi]

40. Thank you for posting. I knew you weren't grave dancing...

I appreciate your OP. I am so sorry to hear about Taverner. I'm also sorry to hear about datasuspect. I don't know enough about RZM but the ppr news in this thread is a little disturbing. Sounds like there's an alert stalking/purge being carried out.

Thanks again, pintobean.

TYY

[Kingofalldems]

107. I don't believe that for one second.

[pintobean]

115. I don't care.

[Throd]

21. I am actually going to miss that annoying little twerp.

[WillyT]

26. Damn... Probably Could Have Used A Break From DU...

Love ya Tav...

[Kaleva]

27. Nothing goes on here that warrants insulting Admin and creating sockpuppet accounts

DU is a forum and nothing more then that.

[Strelnikov_]

29. Made him for a troll years ago n/t

[WilliamPitt]

43. You "made" wrong.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

270. You're still here?

Lol. J/k

[Blue_In_AK]

55. Not true.

[JI7]

58. not a troll, but he should have taken a break from DU

[malaise]

63. NOT n/t

[hlthe2b]

79. No, he was not... Intemperate, sometimes yes. Very impassioned, yes.

He let his passions get the better of him. That is NOT a troll.

[uppityperson]

99. Well, you were wrong. He wasn't banned for being a troll.

[Iggo]

122. No, you didn't.

[Renew Deal]

260. He wasn't a troll

He might have been rude, nasty, mean, whatever, but he was on our side.

[Marrah_G]

282. He was never a troll

Whatever happened with Skinner and Earl, he was NOT a troll. Even if they banned him for good reason, He was NOT a troll.

[woo me with science]

305. He was not a troll. nt

[L0oniX]

359. -1

[LittleBlue]

398. Same

The people replying above me are his buddies or something

He made sock puppets, and why else than to cause trouble? Good PPR, unfortunately that horrible poster developed a large following it seems.

[tblue37]

469. I did not know Taverner, and I do think he was not

always as civil as one might wish. Nevertheless, I have read many of his posts and thought to myself that I was glad he had posted what he did. He often posted powerful progressive statements and arguments.

I understand why he was banned, but he was not a troll. He was often a first-rate voice for strong progressive values.

[ellie]

32. What?

Wasn't he an old timer? I guess I didn't realize he was a disruptor but the I just remember seeing his name not any of his posts.

[Posteritatis]

38. Guh, I didn't see that coming. (nt)

[Xipe Totec]

39. I'm sorry to hear that

Regrettable loss, whatever the cause.

[MADem]

41. Did they get all the socks...or are there a few more bouncing around in the dryer?

That transparency page of his isn't a huge recommendation.

He's probably already back. Do we know who the other socks are?

What it is about disruptors? Don't they have LIVES? What a cheap--and by cheap, I mean both tawdry AND sadly pathetic--thrill they get from irritating people on the internet. How lame, how overbearingly stupid can they be?

[JI7]

67. i think he told who he was when he used his sockpuppets

i saw one of them and it was moslty just complaints about what happened to him and who he was and how that was a sockpuppet account.

[WilliamPitt]

42. He was here since 2001.

Longer than me.

When a culture loses its own history, a culture loses itself.

[pintobean]

44. His profile says 2004

Member since: Fri Apr 9, 2004, 12:58 AM

Did he start over in '04?

[JI7]

64. maybe changed his name ?

[pintobean]

66. I don't think that reset the date on DU2.

[MADem]

83. Well, not to "Godwin" but when Germany lost Hitler it was an improvement.

No one deserves abuse, certainly not the admins of this site.

[WilliamPitt]

89. "...but when Germany lost Hitler it was an improvement."

Really?

[MADem]

106. Why don't you wander over to facebook and have a look at what that guy

had to say to the admins, and then continue to cheerlead for him, if you'd like.

I don't do fanboy posts of people who wish others dead, who hope they "die unloved and unnoticed." And that's probably the nicest thing he had to say.

But hey, grab the pompoms and cheer on, if that's what you're into. The guy is toxic and has real problems. When "passion" becomes abusive, it isn't passion any more--it's perversion.

[Blue_In_AK]

109. He's angry, and he's been under a lot of stress with the illness of his father.

Maybe he doesn't belong in this particular incarnation of DU, but I personally am willing to cut him some slack.

[tenderfoot]

120. +1

He is a good man.

[MADem]

128. In the last month, I have had two relatives MURDERED by drunkards behind the wheel.

I am no spring chicken myself, and I'm feeling the weight of caring for aging and infirm relatives as well. I could list a few more "woes" but, really, I come here to forget my cares, not play "Poor Pitiful Me." And even if I did want to rehash all that ails me, that certainly doesn't give me license (pardon the bad pun) to say things like

You are a corporate tool When we are all their slaves, I hope you find happiness in that, fucker.

....Fuck you. You are just a fucking tool. Let's hope you die like my DAD is dying right now. That way, it will fuck up your children and make them heroin users at 12.

My family deals with their grief by uniting and commiserating--not getting on the internet and swearing at/insulting strangers. Those are just despicable words. There's no damn excuse for saying things like that.

Lashing out on the internet is just an ineffective way to deal with personal pain. There's just no NEED for that kind of shit. It doesn't make it go away, all it does is piss off or distress people who come here to have spirited political discussions, discuss the news of the day, have a little chit-chat and fun, and exercise the old brain.

Sorry, I can't get behind that kind of thing, where people say horrible things and expect to be forgiven, over and over again, because they are somehow "special"--people under that much "stress" need to get off the keyboard and get some help.

[JI7]

133. i remember he wanted to start the Pacifism Group

i wonder if he was going to make posts like that in there.

[MADem]

165. Ouch! nt

[Blue_In_AK]

134. I'm sorry.

My mother was killed by a drunk driver, too, many years ago.

But different people handle stress in different ways. I agree the language was over-the-top, and it's probably not the way you or I would have reacted in this circumstance, but it's just words and maybe he'll feel better after getting it off his chest.

[MADem]

162. Thank you for that, and I know you "get" how I feel,though I don't come here for that kind of thing.

I was simply pointing out that people can endure tragic circumstances and not feel a need to lash out at others. It's never a good move to do that.

He may "feel better" but feeling better by making someone else feel worse--and even more, causing them to be concerned about their safety and the safety of their children by all those creepy "I hope you die" comments---is just "not on" with me. I think there is no excuse for that kind of thing. It's wrong, over the top, awful, nasty, vicious, mean and you-name-it.

Sometimes words are precursors to actions, and when words involve violent imagery, there's good reason to be concerned. "Die, you f-word!" is a lot more serious than "I hate you, you meany-poopyface!"

IMO, anyway!

The admins live their lives out in "the public" insofar as this site and the internet are concerned, and I think they have a right to feel safe in their persons and not feel as though they or their families are being threatened in any way. And I don't think they are being unreasonable when they prevent people who abuse and threaten them from posting on their private website. We're the guests at their little liberal inn, here. They do the work to keep the place running, we should acknowledge their efforts by being decent guests and not tossing threats at them or others.

I hope the guy gets some help, but I don't want to see that kind of abuse heaped on anyone who posts here--it's just wrong.

[Blue_In_AK]

171. I think we both agree

that it would have been far better for him to just take a little break, if necessary (like I did when DU3 first came on line; I HATED it, and everybody here made me mad), and I could be wrong, but I think a lot of Tav's sputtering was hyperbole and that Skinner, et al., have nothing to worry about.

But I do take your point.

[pipi_k]

333. Which leads to a very important

point...

Nearly everyone has troubles going on behind the scenes.

Not everyone broadcasts their troubles...which, in some cases like yours, can actually be tragedies.

But unfortunately, there will always be some here (and in RL) who use their own troubles as an excuse to be nasty to others without even a thought as to what awful things others might be dealing with. No. In their minds, their pain is the only one that counts.

Which, I guess is understandable from one aspect, as anger is easier to deal with than sadness or grief.

But I agree with you that it's no excuse for being rotten to others. Write in a diary...get professional help...whatever.

[MADem]

446. +1

Write in a diary -- that IS a really good idea. Even write it in WORD, save it for a day, and then read it and delete it. It is easy to go OTT when one is mad, sad, angry, feeling like one has no control...but it's not a good idea to act that stuff out in a public arena.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

418. +A BRAZILLION!

[Vashta Nerada]

146. That's not an excuse to wish death on others.

[TeeYiYi]

144. I'm wondering...

...if you could help me with a link. I just went to DU's facebook and couldn't find what you are referring to.

Thanks MADem.

TYY

[pintobean]

154. Never mind

I didn't find that quote either. Maybe he edited it out.

[TeeYiYi]

163. Thanks for trying. ..nt

TYY

[zappaman]

279. It's in the DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND group

Which seems to be a place where people bitch about DU...

"My message to the shitsmokers on DU after they PPR'd me:

PUH-LEAZE Biotch

I never insulted a single one of you

If you can't take the heat GET OUT OF THE MUTHERFUCKING KITCHEN!!

Oh wait - I think I will let one of my NONEXISTANT sock puppet accounts do that

I had one. You killed it.

So uckfay, ouyay....

When I see you in person, don't be surprised if I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT RULES, MOTHER FUCKER

As long as I have been accused of insults, let me make some REAL insults

David "Skinwalker" Allen - You are a corporate tool When we are all their slaves, I hope you find happiness in that, fucker.

ELAD and the other guy - Fuck you. You are just a fucking tool. Let's hope you die like my DAD is dying right now. That way, it will fuck up your children and make them heroin users at 12.

And to DU - YOU FUCKERS ARE GODDAMN TOOLS

I hope you die unloved and unnoticed"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2426871461/

[Number23]

296. That sounds EXACTLY like the ravings found on Old Elm Tree

Holy hell. It's kind of interesting to note that all of these folks don't just hate the president, they appear to hate The WORLD.

[bunnies]

351. !!!

Holy shit. Doesnt get much more hateful than that. I never saw anything like that from Tav. wow.

[TeeYiYi]

375. I missed this last night...

...but read it early this morning. I was shocked by the comments toward the admins. Pretty sick shit. "Skinwalker" was a huge clue. I no longer care about his reinstatement.

TYY

[joshcryer]

427. Everyone defending him here needs to read this garage.

[rudolph the red]

328. When someone gets that worked up about an internet discussion forum

maybe it time for them to move on. That is just over the top ridiculous.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

292. Are you equating Taverner to indigenous people? Bahahahaha

[jpak]

410. Will is correct

n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Off the deep end...quelle dommage

[nolabear]

47. Oh, that's too bad. I worried about him a little.

[Hekate]

74. Bwa-ha-ha. You know this after FIVE Posts? Do tell us who you used to be here?

We await your reply with breathless anticipation.

[winter is coming]

88. Hmm. Looking at his profile, it appears that the problem wasn't "independent thinking"

so much as being rude and hostile to other DUers.

[snooper2]

141. You know what though, at least it's not fucking YouTube and Google +

I mean, REALLY-

The shit I have to go through now. Oh, can't just call a random person a Jackass on YouTube now because it might show up on my Google + account. Plus, the ascii dicks and cocks everywhere...Seriously! COME ON!

Francis explains it well-

[Rex]

261. Holyshit that had me rolling!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

327. OMG

[4Q2u2]

369. Tanks for a Great Laugh

I had people running into the office to watch. All of us were rolling. TGIF.

[msanthrope]

377. Omg...thank you for posting that! I can't stop laughing. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

417. this guy tries to be comical. but turns out he is unintentionally comical

[joshcryer]

428. "Francis" is his YT character, he's actually a nice guy.

Check his other videos to see what he's really like.

[snooper2]

442. you let the secret out!

[jazzimov]

49. Good. Although we need interactive discussion here

we don't need disruptive posts.

Personally, we need to stick to the issues and ignore distractions.

Another troll exposed and eliminated. Hopefully, more to come.

[xmas74]

51. If he was a troll he kept it up for many years.

He was here for a very, very long time. I've had a number of conversations with him in the past.

[Blue_In_AK]

56. Taverner was not a troll.

[leftstreet]

94. +1

And the obituary doesn't refer to being a 'troll' - only that s/he created several accts to be 'disruptive'

[xmas74]

308. Exactly.

I don't get the comments about trolls, especially from people who've only been here a few months. If he was a troll he held on longer than any I've ever seen on DU.

It's silly. He's never been a troll, just very opinionated, like many on DU.

[intaglio]

388. Perhaps not a troll but definitely stupid

for starting sock puppet accounts and sending insults to Admin.

[sharp_stick]

53. Man I'm good

with the ignore list or maybe just lucky. So many eventually screw up enough that they get caught and here's another one.

[pintobean]

62. I don't think it was a matter of getting caught.

He had a sense of entitlement and doesn't take criticism well. When he was flagged for review for two hidden posts, he reacted poorly. I'm sure there was a path to reinstatement, but he chose a different path.

[sharp_stick]

85. I think you're right

that's probably a more accurate interpretation.

[TomClash]

57. I hate this thread

Taverner brought something good to the table.

[Logical]

60. The jury system is a joke and then this. n-t

[L0oniX]

363. The jury system is a mistake or designed to censure and enforce lock step.

The mod system was light years better. You couldn't lock because you didn't like what someone had to say concerning the truth or wanting to debate what may or may not be the truth. What we have now is random and inconsistent. It might as well be hooked up to a mood ring control system or a church lady convention.

[1000words]

77. Agreed. The community is diminished by Taverner's absence

Alas, Taverner had multiple hidden threads in a short period of time, which likely prompted the account review. The effort put into insulting the administrators had to have been what sealed the deal.

Good luck, Taverner.

[Blue_Tires]

86. +1

[WilliamPitt]

91. THIS

[Dreamer Tatum]

97. He also was very polarizing.

As evidenced by this thread.

He had some fairly odd positions in addition to the more mainstream ones.

[CreekDog]

132. and you aren't polarizing?

[Dreamer Tatum]

164. I'm not the one trashing DU on Facebook. nt

[CreekDog]

191. you do it here

you want a medal?

[Dreamer Tatum]

192. Aww, poor baby. Let me submit my posts to you first

so your little feelings don't get hurt.

[woo me with science]

306. Case in point.

Why are you behaving like this?

[Dreamer Tatum]

280. Oh, it's you. Now I get it. nt

[L0oniX]

358. +1

[uppityperson]

61. That is really too bad. I wish him and his father well, or peace at least.

[AverageJoe90]

69. I'll miss the guy....faults aside, he seemed to be a pretty decent & principled fellow.

I suppose there's nothing else I can say, really.

[Starry Messenger]

72. He was a member of Socialist Progressives, a group I help host.

I'm sorry to see him go out this way. I didn't often find myself agreeing with him, but I appreciated that he asked questions and discussed things.

[TBF]

92. Yes, I considered Tavener a valued member of our group as well -

and appreciated his interest in socialism.

I haven't lost a parent yet but I imagine that has to be incredibly difficult. The admins need to do what is right for the site as a whole, but I will miss our friend.

[Schema Thing]

82. He once claimed to have gotten shot in the leg on his way home that day.

A year or two later, he seemed to have forgotten that story.


I bet he's forgotten a lot of stories.

[Cal Carpenter]

90. Wow

Happy trails, Taverner, if you're reading this.

[demosincebirth]

101. 'bout time

[Tuesday Afternoon]

108. for you, Taverner - where ever you are:

[rdharma]

137. I liked that..Concrete Blond!

[tblue37]

113. I am sorrry to hear this, though I understand he virtually "asked for it" at the end. nt

[Iggo]

125. Aw, sad!

I like that guy!

Later, Tav.
Good luck to you.

[Skip Intro]

142. Oh man, that is sad.

I'm not on DU as much as I used to be, but all the posts I can remember by Taverner seemed to me to be sincere and passionate. He was a big supporter of animals and animal rights. This is too bad. Who could blame him for getting kind of ticked at the situation?

Will miss him.

[CreekDog]

248. Watch this space for a rare thing

I agree with you.

[Dr. Strange]

439. Well shit.

The apocalypse must be right around the corner.

Next you'll be singing Rush tunes.

[Nye Bevan]

157. I used to wonder whether his persona was an intentional parody of a crazed far-leftist,

but I think he probably was sincere. I guess there are people who really do think that all Republicans are Nazis and/or fascists.

[TBF]

312. There's a very wide range on this site -

from the Reagan democrats to actual Marxists. Tavener wasn't that out there

[Schema Thing]

319. A storyteller. A fiction writer lost in their own fiction.

[HuckleB]

161. I can see why he was so frustrated, however.

Evidence mattered to him, even when I disagreed with him.

That's going out the window, culturally, at DU. The owners are not doing anything to change it, and, while there's no excuse for what he did, I don't think he'll be the last to do it.

There needs to be a concerted movement towards science-based progressivism. DU seems to be going in the other direction, and that means DU will become less relevant over time, unless it changes direction.

[1000words]

184. +1

Your point will be lost on many, unfortunately.

[HuckleB]

187. Alas, you are right. -eom-

[go west young man]

228. Totally agree.

Every time I get one here these days. It's just threads like this one with name calling and little cliques. Back in 2004 there were so many intelligent posts with true liberal progressives coming together and competing to gather the most well researched linked evidence on the internet. It was a fun challenge and truly educational. It made me feel good to be a part of it. Names like Peace Patriot and Time For Change come to mind. They and many others have taught me so much. I can't for the life of me find that level of debate here anymore. Maybe it is time for someone to come up with a truly progressive underground again.

[HuckleB]

242. +1000

[PassingFair]

349. +1 nt

[Scootaloo]

167. And yet posters who claim all Arabs are child-murdering death cultists get to stick around

Another day in the convoluted ball of yarn that is DU politics, I guess.

[Nye Bevan]

205. If you can provide a link even to one post that claims that all Arabs are murderers,

that wasn't hidden, I will be amazed. Just one. But I really don't think that you can, can you?

[Pab Sungenis]

212. Close enough.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113450188

This kind of thing stays unhidden too often.

[Scootaloo]

222. Exactly the poster I was referring to

http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=47028

I was trying to avoid a direct call-out, but hey, what the fuck, so long as the boulders' already rolling, right?

[Violet_Crumble]

233. What a coincedence! That's the one I thought of too...

I think that post you linked to from August was their 2,000 milestone for sticking 'Palestinian death cults!!!' into a post...

[Scootaloo]

235. Oh! I wish I had known, I would have baked a cake!

[NealK]

238. That's really an ugly post.

[Pab Sungenis]

256. The upside is that lately

the Admins have been zotting people like that who slip past the juries.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

420. not even close. try again.

[nomorenomore08]

217. Have there been recent posts of that nature? I'm not doubting you, I'm asking honestly

because I want to see for myself.

[Violet_Crumble]

246. Pabs already posted one...and that's one of many...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113450188

[azurnoir]

301. but a fan of "scholarship"

it starts here must be read to be believed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=47864

[NuclearDem]

224. That's just the tip of the iceberg that's tolerated here

Misogyny, anti-Latin America xenophobia, death fantasies, and anti-choice.

Taverner gets PPR'd and those people are allowed to stay. Pathetic.

[Scootaloo]

229. Oh, I know

I was lurking years back, when there was a news story about a pair of dead Roma people on an Italian beach, and Italian beachgoers were just skirting around them like nothing... and there were DU'ers who were defending antiziganism. And then there was that whole Trayvon Martin thing....

I'm from the internet. There are few surprises for me. Doesn't mean I don't sometimes just palm my face and go "Really, DU? Really?"

[idwiyo]

302. +1

[woo me with science]

307. +10000 And constant trashing of liberals and liberal economic policies. nt

[PeteSelman]

168. Lots of old timers have gotten the axe.

For having one opinion out of line or one slip up.

If he had multiple socks, he's still around. No one ever really leaves if they don't want to.

[cherokeeprogressive]

194. Every DUer is a Troll to at LEAST one other DUer. It's the nature of the Democratic Party.

Big tent and all...

At DU we get:

Purity tests... clever and not so clever.

Lists made up from who recs which post...

Here's what DU is to me:

You know those posts that ALWAYS pop up whenever a holiday comes that merits a family get-together, and how much some people HATE their family get-togethers? The constant lament... "Oh My God not again... do we HAVE to do this? I HATE my family! My FIL, MIL, SIL, BIL etc. is SUCH a right-wing faux snooze sycophant (notice it's never a blood family member)!

DU is one neverending holiday dinner. I LOVE family dinners like that, and wouldn't trade it for the fucking world.

[1000words]

198. The key is to not take the place so seriously.

Refrain from getting sucked into the drama some here seem to crave.

[FSogol]

314. ^^^^Good Advice^^^^^

[Puzzledtraveller]

342. fresh air does wonders.

[quinnox]

200. Taverner, datasuspect, RZM - Very surprised by all these

Especially surprised by RZM, he seemed to me to be a level-headed duer, and never posted anything way "out there", which Taverner and datasuspect sometimes would. I wonder what happened there.

As far as Taverner and datasuspect, I thought they were colorful characters. Sure, they could be annoying or perhaps too confrontational at times, but they added color. Too bad, not sure this is a good thing for DU.

[CreekDog]

294. oh?

RZM (8,556 posts)
46. Perhaps if your neighbor had used the proper euphemisms, you wouldn't have been as horrified

The most common one is 'good schools,' though maybe she didn't have school-age children. Or better yet, she could have just said nothing. Or lied. Then your mind would have been totally at ease.

But to answer your questions:

1) Yes it is flight
2) No it isn't right or wrong. There is an unspoken rule that people are allowed to think this way, provided you never tell the truth about it. What isn't allowed is expressing it openly. That's the mistake your neighbor made. As long as you observe the rules, you won't get in trouble for it.

Obviously living in a diverse neighborhood works for you. More power. But it doesn't work for everybody. Many people prefer to live around people that look like them. It's not my job to pass judgment on people for where they decide to live. If this woman wants to live around other white people, I don't really care. Just as I don't care if a Somali immigrant decides to settle in Minneapolis, and Iraqi Christian in Dearborn, or a black family in Atlanta.

I'm glad you told this story because it's a perfect example of the bind white liberals are in when it comes to race. Many white liberals secretly think the same way your neighbor does. Believe me, I've known plenty who do. But they can't say it, especially around other liberals. Saying what your neighbor did would be an automatic tombstore here, for example.

But conservatives (white would be redundant) are much less concerned with appearing racist, at least in private conversation with other conservatives.

I'm not saying every liberal is like this. Obviously you aren't. But if you think this isn't a widespread notion, you are deluding yourself. The evidence of it is scant precisely for the reasons I mentioned. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

[FSogol]

315. LOL. Soon we will only be left with milquetoast trolls, right?

[BlueJazz]

202. Sorry to hear that. I liked him. He had fire.

[Cali_Democrat]

203. I liked Taverner

Sure he was over the top at times, but I thought he was a good guy.

Too bad.

[Major Hogwash]

219. He should be reinstated.

If what has been said about him being put on review for over a week, and then ignored, he should be reinstated.

[uppityperson]

300. His account was on review so long because he kept emailing bad stuff to the admin

If he'd settled down, he'd've been reinstated the next day, but he didn't. Admin did not ban him BECAUSE they were looking for a way to not do so. It finally got to be too much. Is your complaint that they did not simply ban him quickly?

[flvegan]

204. If that's what he did, then good riddance. n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

206. I've been here since 2001 and having read through this thread, so glad I am out of the

loop and have not a clue...........

[pipi_k]

362. Hah!

Same here!

Most of the time I don't have a clue what people are talking about.

I don't belong to any cliques...don't have any special "friends" here, and don't even have much of a "real life" (like working outside the home, or having lots of other commitments to drag me away from the computer).

I don't spend hours at a time hunting down trolls or keeping lists (mental or otherwise) on who's doing what to whom, or who's saying what in which group/forum.

Like you, I'm glad for my mostly clueless state.

[sibelian]

412. I also...

Threads like this one turn up and I go WHUH?

[JNelson6563]

226. Raise the hue & cry!1!

Someone got busted with sockies, obviously Real Progressives aren't welcome here!1!



Either there is a big lack of reading comprehension here or several DUers are quite adept at being deliberately obtuse. Either way, pretty sad commentary in this thread.

Julie

[1000words]

240. To me, what stands out in this thread ...

are the members who will take any opportunity to put in their digs.

Classy.

[Vashta Nerada]

271. He made death threats to the admins and intentionally broke their rules.

He deserved to be PPRed.

[JI7]

283. maybe he was upset he didn't get his Pacifist group

[Vashta Nerada]

285. Hahaha.

[JNelson6563]

372. I agree!

I think it's hilarious people are breaking out the persecution complexes!

So, on a more serious note, how do you feel about sock puppets on a forum like this?

Julie--the curious

[FSogol]

311. Seriously. He wasn't banned for his ideas/convictions, he was banned for being OTT nasty to everyone

and violating the rules.

[Capt. Obvious]

385. He was our Bobby Kennedy

[JNelson6563]

436. lolz Good one!

[hunter]

232. Sucks. A DUer in a bad place.

[JI7]

234. i'm pretty sure the admin will let him back on if he apologizes

but he should maybe wait a few months and just get away from this site for a while.

[RKP5637]

236. I'm going to miss him, I always enjoyed his posts and comments. n/t

[davidpdx]

237. I didn't know him that well

I followed what was happening with his father. It sounds like he has some controversial posts and started to go down hill the last few weeks.

I still wish him the best.

[DonCoquixote]

239. on the one hand

If his offense was the sock puppets, I could see a suspension, namely because sock puppets are somethign we should be flat out against.

However, the fact this happened because he ticked that magic number of negative reviews that make an audit scares me,. A few weeks ago, I posted another's warning about this, that cliques can and would get together to make sure people they did not like got enough reviews to get the Ax. I cannot help but feel this was a prime example..to quote Maddow, if I am wrong, talk me down.

Now, please do not think I do not enjoy it when someone who deserves it gets a pizza. I am still happy about DKF being gone. But then again, DKF had made tons of outright nasty, trollish posts. Simply put, what did Taverner do to tick people off?

[lpbk2713]

241. Fug with the bull, expect the horn

You did the right thing EarlG

[OmahaBlueDog]

245. No one can do it - but you...

Johnny Cash couldn't do it. John Lennon couldn't do it.

Bob Dylan couldn't do it.

Jack Kerouac couldn't do it.

Hunter S Thompson couldn't do it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018389863

I love the fact that the Dead came from San Francisco.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018380724

We are going about gun control the wrong way.

It needs to be treated like a public health issue - not a criminal one. Don't get me wrong, I know we need to get guns off the street and make them hard as hell to get. However, we'll never be able to do that by force.

Think smoking in the 1950s. Lots of people did it, and it was everywhere. When the surgeon general report came out, some people quit but in the late 60s to today, we've been running a public health campaign like no other. We were able to get 75% of all smokers to quit - simply by changing public perception from being cool to being the epitome of uncool.

Now we do the same things with guns - ads that make gun owners look stupid, careless, reckless, and dangerous. Ads that show kids finding guns. Ads that show kids getting into gun safes. Ads that show the numbers about the danger of guns. Then, have a long standing buy back program - no questions.

Soon, you will have thieves selling their stolen guns instead of keeping them. Instant cash! Put big warning stickers on the guns themselves - or etch it onto the gun itself. WARNING: HAVING A GUN IN YOUR HOME INCREASES YOUR CHANCE OF DYING BY x%, for example.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022467532

I want a flat system, dammit

Egalitarian

All as one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022042069

We are at war. You can pretend we can be one country again, but we can't.

The battle lines have been drawn and the troops are amassing on the field.

I hear many on DU who want common ground between us and the GOP. They want common ground between intelligent professors and inbred rednecks. Sorry, it isn't going to happen.

There is no chance to heal these wounds. Since Reagan, they have declared war on US. Remember "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem"?

That was code, saying we, the liberals, the progressives, the intelligent ones, the reason based community, are the problem and Lee Greenwood is the solution.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002879486

You think you're free?

Think again.

Just like "Angkha" during the horrific days of the Khmer Rouge - where "angkha" was why you only got a pinch of rice a day, why your neighbor was clubbed to death, why your children were removed from you. It was all to serve Anghka.

We're in a similar situation. Sure, they don't beat your neighbor to death in front of you - but try and speak out - and you'll soon find yourself sharing a cell with Bradley Manning or "accidentally" killed with a tear gas canister being shot right into your face.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002776337

I also remember a man who read every night

A man who appreciated the validated and proven

He wanted evidence of whatever claim you made

This prepared me for a world that required proof

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=500271

[antiquie]

376. Thank you.

I already miss his posts.

[Marrah_G]

250. Wow

I just don't know what to think

[Pretzel_Warrior]

252. Wow! His recent ones were a bit over the top

[Renew Deal]

253. Wow

Disappointing

[Jamastiene]

266. Fucking hell.

[BootinUp]

275. He'll be back. nt

[hrmjustin]

288. I was on earlier today and saw this come through MIRT and I was sorry to see it.

I had no idea he was suspended. I wish him well and wish him happiness.

[littlewolf]

303. I am sorry to hear this I thought he posted some interesting stuff nt

[G_j]

316. that's a shame

will be missed..

[madrchsod]

317. he posted an epic rant on facebook about his tombstoning...

ya he really went off on the guys who run the show.

[alcibiades_mystery]

325. Wow, that Facebook group is a study in bitterness, self-aggrandizement, and mental illness

They really do work themselves up into a tizzy over there!

[pintobean]

329. The person over there calling me a troll

is PPRed DUer The Doctor.

An admitted republican, and going by the PPR reason, a Limpballs follower.

Dec 4, 2012 In a DU mail message that was reported to Admin, The Doctor described certain DU members as "feminazis".
EarlG (Administrator)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=145185&sub=trans

[alcibiades_mystery]

331. I've read as much as I need to (about two minutes of their insane ranting)

Was interesting to see DU darling Nadin shitting all over DU, though.



I'm on the dreaded "iggy" list, though (supposing it actually exists - a doubtful proposition), so I'm sure she won't care!



It really is the cream of the crop when it comes to DU loony tunes over there. I've made my first and last visit!

[zappaman]

354. You noticed that too?

Yet she still posts here while she has more respect for the guy who runs Free Republic.

[Brickbat]

391. That's when I started cackling.

[Puzzledtraveller]

344. Wow, DU for me stays on DU.

Heck I mostly post at work out of boredom. At night or weekends I'm doing other things.

[Hayabusa]

356. Wow, that sounds somewhat interesting.

Got a link or a name?

[MineralMan]

365. That toxic Facebook page is home to lots of folks

who dislike DU for whatever reason. I remember when it started, and it was a DU support page. At some point, it changed to a DU attack page. It can be an eyeopener, but I haven't been to look at it for a very long time until today.

Unpleasant place.

[alcibiades_mystery]

403. Unpleasant people

[MineralMan]

405. There are certainly some of those there.

There are also people who are active on DU posting there. Not everyone at that Facebook page is an attacker. Some, though, are.

[Agschmid]

443. Yup.

Lots of issues there.

[Rex]

322. For some people it is like

for others it is like

[pintobean]

326. He knew exactly what he was doing.

We all got the notice to read the thread about the new rules. Taverner posted in that thread.

We are making some changes to the moderating/jury system. (THIS IS IMPORTANT.)

Please note that creating additional accounts in order to get around -- or preemptively avoid -- any restrictions on your account would be considered a Terms of Service violation. The best way to avoid restrictions on your account would be to avoid getting your posts hidden in the first place. It is not that hard.

[el_bryanto]

330. That's too bad - it's always a shame when someone gets PPRed. nt

[Orsino]

334. Gravedancing threads are unbecoming, and I hate them.

I sense none of that in the OP, but rather from the inevitable follow-ups.

[Capt. Obvious]

337. I'm sure the OP did not mean for this to turn into a gravedancing thread

That is completely out of character for him.

[pintobean]

343. How sweet of you

[Ichingcarpenter]

338. Death in his family

maybe he can come back after he grieves properly .

[adirondacker]

383. That explains a Lot. The emotional roller coaster of losing someone close can be brutal.

I had to exit the internet for several years after losing my sister. I had NO tolerance for narcissistic bullshit, denigration, and manipulation of Any sort.

I hope Taverner is taking care and returns, since I admire his gutsy stances on issues.

[bvar22]

465. Especially if one posts a legitimate OP...

...that is hijacked by a swarm of repeated Ad Hominens whose purpose is NOT to discuss the content of a post, but to goad one into posting something alertable.

The Purpose if not to convince anyone of anything.

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.

woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013

[JCMach1]

389. I almost always liked what Taverner had to say... even when I disagreed

there are times (over the years) when all of us need to take a step back from the DU and breathe...

[FedUpWithIt All]

390. When did we all go back to middle school?

Just read through a little of this thread...wow. It's like listening at the door of the bedroom my teenaged daughters share. Keep it classy DU.

[Brickbat]

392. This thread tho.

[Vinnie From Indy]

400. I have taken a break from DU for a few weeks and I cannot remember if I liked Taverner or not.

I think I did and even if I didn't, I am sad to see a long timer go. I am also not a grave dancer (I reserve the right however to dance on Dick Cheney's and a few others graves), but I was happy to get more information from this thread about what happened.

In the end though, behaving badly rarely influences people in your direction. I wish Tav the best and hope maybe he and Skinner & Earl can work it out and he can come back.

Cheers!

[Owl]

408. That's a shame. I always looked forward to reading his posts.

[defacto7]

411. I understand the intention of the post...

Unfortunately, it seems to have become the once or twice a year, "Return of the META" thread. Maybe it's necessary... maybe it's become decisive in the end.

[LWolf]

421. That's too bad.

So many guilty of much worse still standing.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

422. +1 n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

423. Taverner was the only DUer I ever put on only PM ignore.

He had a way of not letting things go. It looks like it caught up with him.

From a political standpoint, I had 0 issues with him.

[Orrex]

434. Who?

[Warren DeMontague]

435. Walt Starr has still set the standard to which all DU self-destructs

should aspire.

[Blue_In_AK]

445. Indeed.

That was an exquisite flame-out.

[hrmjustin]

437. Damn! This certainly generated discussion.

[cherokeeprogressive]

438. Gone. Let it fucking sink already. Wanna pay MORE for your Star next year? (bandwidth)

Keep lamenting his flameout.

Keep dancing on his fucking grave.

Cost me a few more dollars if it feels good.

Why?

[Major Hogwash]

451. Skinner

I thought you said the forum's automatic "profile under review" system for hidden posts didn't go in to effect for 90 days, which was going to be sometime around Christmas.

So when did this system go in to effect?

[pintobean]

453. Link here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=2863

'Flagged for review' and the temporary suspension are 2 different things.

[Major Hogwash]

454. " . . . to catch and remove malicious intruders . . ."

Taverner was not a malicious intruder.
And everyone here knows that.

[pintobean]

455. "likely to happen if a member gets too many posts hidden in a relatively brief length of time"

Taverner posted in that thread, so I assume he read the OP.

[Major Hogwash]

457. Taverner was not a malicious intruder.

No system is perfect.
Even President Obama said he was sorry and reversed his decision to allow for canceled health care plans that are substandard to be allowed under ACA for another year.

If the President of the United States can admit that he made a mistake, and he's busy running the entire federal government, then surely Skinner can follow his example and reverse his decision.
He has done it before.

[pintobean]

464. Admin did not make a mistake.

Very few people here believe this PPR was unjustified. That announcement thread also said that creating a sock to get around account restrictions would be a TOS violation. That's exactly what he did, and one of the reasons for his PPR.
Some of Taverner's supporters completely dropped that support after his disgusting Facebook rant - copied in post #279.

[Major Hogwash]

466. Yes, he did.

Whatever Taverner said at Facebook is after the fact.

[BainsBane]

473. No, while under flagged for review

He sent insulting messages to the site owners. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that wasn't going to help his case.

Most people who are flagged for review have the flag lifted, some right away others after a couple of weeks. Taverner made it impossible for the administrators to reinstate him due to his behavior, which his tombstone message summarizes.

[Major Hogwash]

474. After being ignored for a few hours? For a few days? For a week?

Taverner had been posting here for at least 9 years.
He was NOT a malicious intruder, by any means, by any definition.

I don't think you understand that part of it.
Therefore, he should NOT have been "flagged for review" to begin with . . Taverner was not a malicious intruder.

Skinner CAN reinstate Taverner.
I know that he can, because he has reinstated other members before.

To err is human, to forgive devine.

[BainsBane]

475. Flagged for review happens automatically

After a person gets two hides in a short period of time. The software does it. The automated system doesn't account for the members you happen to like.
Several people have been flagged for review since the changes have been put into place. Taverner, as far as I know, is the only person who responded by sending abusive emails to the site owners.

Of course Skinner can reinstate If he wants, but Taverner's ongoing insults on FB of Skinner and the other administrators makes that highly unlikely.

I've explained how then system works. Other than that, you'll have to take it up with Skinner.

[Major Hogwash]

476. Skinner can reinstate Taverner.

I know of other members at DU that have been banned, and then reinstated.

Whatever Taverner is saying over at Facebook does NOT matter.
Skinner has already stated that he doesn't do Facebook, and that he doesn't care what is said over there.

[pintobean]

484. Not since DU3

with one exception (that I know of). That was when datasuspect went on pwi hidden post binge and MIRT PPR'd him because admin wasn't around and they wanted to put a stop to it. Mirt didn't have the authority and they knew it, but it was a good move.

EarlG has the authority. I doubt Skinner is going to override him. Skinner has said that once a member is PPR'd, that's it. They're done. He has said that some could come back with a new user name and start over - as long as they don't revert back to the same behavior that got them canned.

[Major Hogwash]

495. Taverner was NOT a malicious intruder.

So, I'm going to ask Skinner to reinstate him.
I hope you can understand the reason behind me doing so.

[pintobean]

496. I don't care what you do

or why. I was trying to let you know what i know.

Good luck with that.

[Major Hogwash]

497. Groovy.

[Major Hogwash]

512. You're wrong.

I received an e-mail this morning from another concerned DU member who informed me that Skinner has indeed reinstated another member who was erronously banned at the DU3 forum.

The section in Skinner's announcement thread talking about malicious intruders was to replace the auto-ban feature, which he said has been retired.

Therefore, Taverner should never have been subjected to the ban because he is NOT a malicious intruder . . . which is what the auto-ban feature was designed for.

[pintobean]

514. I guess it's not really groovy, huh?

I don't know why you're on my ass about this. I haven't banned anyone or called anyone a malicious intruder. I thought you were going to take this up with admin.

As to me being wrong, I stipulated "that I know of". That's still true. Unless you can provide details of this erroneously banned member that you heard about, it will remain true.

[Major Hogwash]

530. I'm just making comments in this thread.

I'm not on your ass, as you just claimed.
You started this thread, and I am simply making comments in it.
No one is requiring you to respond back to me.
My first comment in this section of the thread was directed to Skinner.

The problem is the system itself, the system that was supposed to be used to eliminate malicious intruders to replace the auto-ban feature.
It is now being used against every one of us.
That is wrong, and not what it was intended to do.

So, that part of the system has to be altered because being suspended by Otto is not a good system.
We need to work these kinks out of the system.

[pintobean]

531. Really? Do you expect anyone to believe

that your "you're wrong" post wasn't directed at me?

[Major Hogwash]

532. The first post I made in this section of the thread was directed to Skinner.

That is why it is says "Skinner" in the reply title.

[pintobean]

533. And I directed you to his announcement thread

because you had 2 things confused as one.

Skinner hasn't posted in this thread. I doubt he's going to read a particular post and respond to it at this point. I'd suggest ATA or DU mail if you want to give him your pov.

[Major Hogwash]

534. My first post in this section of the thread was directed to Skinner.

Because I think that Skinner needs to take the time to fix his Otto suspending system.
It was an apparent misallocation of resources.
Instead of spending some time to create a buddy list, he created Otto to suspend long-term members.

I really don't think that is what Skinner meant to do.
I don't think that is right, and when I see something going on that is blatantly wrong, I speak up.

[hrmjustin]

501. He has 7 days to appeal.

I just found the facebook group but I have to say I will not join it because it looks like a place where people complain. I wish him the best.

[Violet_Crumble]

504. But Tavener sent Skinner some really nasty emails before he was nuked...

Skinner was giving him a chance and didn't nuke him after he posted with the sockpuppet account. Tav was nuked after he sent emails to Skinner.

I get that you want him reinstated. I wish Tavener hadn't done what he did, but I can totally understand why he was nuked and I'd be understanding if Skinner made the decision not to reinstate him again...

[MineralMan]

460. I'm pretty sure the review policy went into effect immediately.

From what I can surmise from Skinner's post in ATA, he and the other admins value civility highly. The review and time-out stuff is based on alerts that lead to hidden posts. Most hidden posts, based on my own experience with being on DU juries, are hidden for incivility, primarily.

Maintaining civility on any discussion forum is always difficult. I've been on dozens of discussion forums on many different topics, and civility has been an issue on all of them. Even on forums having to do with something as innocuous as fishing or boating, keeping conversations civil is difficult. Some sort of moderation is necessary on every discussion type of site.

We've all seen what happens on unmoderated comment areas on news sites. DU, too, has had to find a way to deal with problems of incivility, and the current alert/jury system is pretty much unique to DU. It lets the community on the site moderate the site. The new review and time-out policies are nothing more than a fine-tuning of that system.

If a poster gets several posts hidden within a short period, the admins review that poster's behavior, and while that review is going on, the poster can't post. That has happened a few times since the policy has been put in place. Mostly, the poster's status is returned to normal after the review.

The time-out thing, which doesn't actually begin until late December is another thing. In it, posters who get five or more hidden posts within 90 days get a time out until they have four or less. Hidden posts drop from view after 90 days, so the system is designed to help DUers self-regulate in terms of civility and other issues.

How well will those things work? That's impossible to say, I think. Only after they have been in place for some time will it be clear how well they work in achieving better civility. But most DUers almost never have posts hidden, so neither policy will cause them any difficulty or restrict their ability to post. Just a few DUers will see any impact from the policies. How they react if their ability to post is restricted will be up to them, I suppose.

The issue of "Alert Trolling" gets brought up a lot. But the admins can see who has alerted, so that's certainly within their ability to detect and deal with. Does it exist? I don't know, but I believe that the admins have said that it hasn't been a problem. None of us can see who alerts on our posts, so we really have no idea. We don't even know that an alert has taken place unless a post is hidden.

I think the system works pretty well, but I'm just a DUer and have nothing to do with how this site is administered.

[WolverineDG]

452. about damn time

that one got away with too much for way too long.

[sibelian]

459. I'm inclined to agree.

Had been ignoring for some time.

[ileus]

477. 477

I have zero idea who taverner was, but I wanted to be a part of this epic thread.

[Tom Ripley]

479. Taverner and datasuspect were two of my absolute favorite DU-ers

I will miss both of them dearly

[tabasco]

481. 'bout fuckin' time. n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

486. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice.

[SidDithers]

500. DU rec...nt

Sid

[quinnox]

508. I read this whole thread, and I think this auto flagged for review thing is a mistake

and needs to be seriously tweaked. Duers who have been here forever should not be getting "flagged for review", that is bullshit. They are not "malicious intruders".

All this does is makes alert stalking that much more attractive for small minded people who want to silence other duers they don't like. Seabeyond, Taverner, and other veteran duers should not be flagged for two hidden posts, for heavens sake.

That is utter garbage, to be blunt.

[BainsBane]

510. It's meant as a time out

For people to cool off rather than flame out. That is how most have taken it. Taverner chose to become a MI. Even today he was again trying to sign up with a name that made it obvious who he was.

[TeeYiYi]

513. +1...

I agree with your assessment 110%. I thought 'flagged for review' happened after 5 hidden posts.
Now it's being used as a tool of harassment.

TYY

[pintobean]

515. Admin is harassing their members?

That seems like it would be an unproductive way to run a business.

Maybe it's actually the way they explained it, and Taverner was harassing them. His Facebook postings would indicate that that was the case.

[TeeYiYi]

516. Do you know...

...exactly how he ended up being 'flagged for review'? Did he have two hidden posts? Three? And then once flagged, was he locked out of using DU?...

TYY

[pintobean]

517. Two within about an hour.

Flagged for review is explained in Announcements.

[TeeYiYi]

518. Two...

What happened to five? Clearly, this result has the potential to be abused as a tool of harassment by alert stalkers. I hope the admins reconsider the 'flagged for review' process.

TYY

[pintobean]

520. Alert stalkers can't get posts hidden

unless four or more jurors agree with them. The simple solution is for members to be civil to one another.

[seabeyond]

521. i was very civil. the height of civility. i was blunt,

talking about grown men that buy schoolgirls soiled undies from a vending machine. but, i was ultimate in civility. because it offends those that want there not to be an "ick, or not shame, or hold a value judgment" on grown men buying soiled schoolgirl panties from vending machine does not mean that i was not civil when addressing the issue of grown men buying soiled schoolgirl undies from vending machines.

do you see how that works? that was the only thing that really bothered me. i was told if i was civil, then i would not have had my posts hid. that is crap. i was extremely civil and respectful when i called out a man that said we should not feel ick, shame or place a value judgment on grown men buying soiled undies of schoolgirls from vending machines.

otherwise, i totally agree with you.

lmao.

sons hungry. gotta go to store and buy some food.

[TeeYiYi]

522. Long time DUers...

...shouldn't be getting locked out of DU over two hidden posts. The fact that it can happen makes DU suck.

Lockout should be saved for disruptive noobs, spammers and low post count trolls.

TYY

[PowerToThePeople]

523. I agree here.

Perma-banned after over 8 years for a couple of posts on a subject the poster was very emotional about? I am not going to say much else. This place is following the same trend as the party, moving right and not looking back.

[tammywammy]

524. It was his follow up actions that got him banned.

Creating sock puppets and sending nasty messages to the admins is why he was banned. And rightfully so.

[PowerToThePeople]

526. I do not know specifics, so can not comment on them. n/t

[tammywammy]

527. It's in the PPR message.

He created sock puppets (no one is denying that) to circumvent his flag, which in the original announcement Skinner stated that would be a SOP violation.

He sent nasty messages to the admins. Again mentioned in the PPR message.

That's why he's been banned. If you want to see something eye opening, look at the DU Facebook group, it's linked above, if you want to see how he really feels.

[BainsBane]

525. How on earth does flagged for review represent a move to the right?

If you read through the thread and look at the PPR message for Taverner, he was PPR'd because of how he behaved while he was flagged, not because of two posts.

People definite left/progressive in strange ways. From what I can tell, people seem to think left = themselves and right equals everyone they disagree with.

[pintobean]

528. We are all guests here

regardless of how long we've been here. I think we should all remember that.

I can tell you, from my observations, Taverner has been cut a lot of slack over the years.

[pintobean]

538. Kick

[taterguy]

539. Dude, my thread was winning

I was a couple posts ahead.

THere weren't any posts in this thread for six fucking days.

WHat the fuack are you trying to pull here?

[pintobean]

540. I realized

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 10:13 PM - Edit history (1)

there was no tater in this thread. That's corrected now. Thanks.




Edit: I kinda feel bad about kicking this thread for a joke, so I'm self deleting the OP.

Here's a copy:

Taverner has been PPRed

Nov 14, 2013 While his account was flagged for review, Taverner created multiple sockpuppet accounts for the purpose of disrupting DU and sent a series of insulting emails to the Administrators.
EarlG (Administrator)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=142485&sub=trans