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Sat May 23, 2015, 06:26 PM

Guys, after seeing the Sanders supporters show their royal hineys in CaliDem's OP

about Hillary's black support, I am now even more concerned about our current crop of Democratic contenders.

I honestly don't know what was the most illuminating thing about that thread:

* The people who actually took it upon themselves to TELL black posters what is and should be important to us. (Hint: Not a winning strategy, folks!)

* The bizarre and beyond absurd contention that Hillary enjoys 87% support in the black community based on nothing but "name recognition" as if black folks are so stupid, that we will actually like and support someone MERELY because we know their name!

* The idea that Sanders knows much about civil rights and the black struggle because he was involved in the March on Washington. Honestly, serious props go to Bernie for participating in the march but that was in 1963, literally more than 50 years ago. To paraphrase Janet's BFF in her video, "I know he USED to do nice things for you, but WHAT HAS HE DONE FOR YOU LATELY???!!"

So far, we've got a candidate who's dog whistling in her previous campaign will not likely be forgotten any time soon. And we've got another candidate from a tiny, lily white state who even his supporters have to go back multiple decades in time to show his work in and support for the black community. If Bernie's done something more recent he needs to spread the word, 'cause if even his fevered supporters on DU don't know about it, what are the chances that most black people nationwide do?

Both of these candidates have their strengths, and Lord knows, both have their weaknesses. But if either of them wants to get 1/10th the level of strong, committed support that Obama got in both of his campaigns, they are seriously going to have to up their games in minority communities. That's just the reality for anybody running for president in a post-Obama political world.

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Reply Guys, after seeing the Sanders supporters show their royal hineys in CaliDem's OP (Original post)
Number23 May 2015 OP
gollygee May 2015 #1
Number23 May 2015 #2
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #141
awoke_in_2003 May 2015 #3
MADem May 2015 #35
Number23 May 2015 #53
MADem May 2015 #55
Number23 May 2015 #63
gollygee May 2015 #85
freshwest May 2015 #117
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #189
gollygee Jun 2015 #193
Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #4
Number23 May 2015 #5
BainsBane May 2015 #6
Number23 May 2015 #7
MADem May 2015 #94
greatauntoftriplets May 2015 #95
Number23 May 2015 #97
MADem May 2015 #101
freshwest May 2015 #119
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #127
freshwest Jun 2015 #181
BainsBane May 2015 #172
Hekate May 2015 #103
MADem May 2015 #104
Number23 May 2015 #105
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #128
MADem May 2015 #131
freshwest May 2015 #16
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #183
tularetom Jun 2015 #202
OilemFirchen May 2015 #8
Number23 May 2015 #9
gollygee May 2015 #20
sheshe2 May 2015 #34
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #110
Number23 May 2015 #113
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #114
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #184
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #186
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #195
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #196
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #198
freshwest May 2015 #118
freshwest May 2015 #120
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #10
Number23 May 2015 #11
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #12
Number23 May 2015 #13
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #14
Number23 May 2015 #26
freshwest May 2015 #17
Number23 May 2015 #24
freshwest May 2015 #30
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #148
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #197
qwlauren35 Jun 2015 #199
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #208
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #145
BainsBane May 2015 #18
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #19
dlwickham May 2015 #76
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #79
freshwest May 2015 #15
greatauntoftriplets May 2015 #21
Tarheel_Dem May 2015 #22
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #23
lovemydog May 2015 #36
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lovemydog May 2015 #48
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Tarheel_Dem May 2015 #44
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #149
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1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #159
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Number23 May 2015 #28
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sheshe2 May 2015 #61
Number23 May 2015 #64
freshwest May 2015 #81
orpupilofnature57 May 2015 #90
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JustAnotherGen May 2015 #107
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Number23 May 2015 #29
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lovemydog May 2015 #37
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JustAnotherGen May 2015 #56
orpupilofnature57 May 2015 #75
BainsBane May 2015 #87
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2015 #205
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freshwest Jun 2015 #194
BeyondGeography May 2015 #31
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lovemydog May 2015 #38
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orpupilofnature57 May 2015 #51
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #60
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1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #161
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zappaman May 2015 #166
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Behind the Aegis May 2015 #169
zappaman May 2015 #170
BainsBane May 2015 #171
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #174
BainsBane May 2015 #175
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #176
BainsBane May 2015 #173
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #111
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #162
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #165
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #160
orpupilofnature57 May 2015 #72
orpupilofnature57 May 2015 #84
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #86
Number23 May 2015 #108
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #115
Number23 May 2015 #123
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #126
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #125
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #133
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #134
Number23 May 2015 #142
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #124
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #135
Number23 May 2015 #143
Number23 May 2015 #96
Hekate May 2015 #82
Number23 May 2015 #99
qwlauren35 Jun 2015 #200
Number23 Jun 2015 #201
Cali_Democrat May 2015 #88
orpupilofnature57 May 2015 #89
Number23 May 2015 #98
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BainsBane May 2015 #106
Number23 May 2015 #109
Number23 May 2015 #112
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #129
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #116
freshwest May 2015 #121
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #132
Number23 May 2015 #122
steve2470 May 2015 #136
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #137
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greatauntoftriplets May 2015 #139
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1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #154
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1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #157
Number23 May 2015 #147
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #153
Number23 May 2015 #163
Lilith Rising May 2015 #177
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gwheezie May 2015 #179
Number23 May 2015 #180
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #190
Number23 Jun 2015 #192
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JustAnotherGen Jun 2015 #185
Number23 Jun 2015 #187
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Number23 Jun 2015 #191
heaven05 Jun 2015 #203
randys1 Jun 2015 #204
noiretextatique Jun 2015 #210
Number23 Jun 2015 #211
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2015 #212
yurbud Jun 2015 #213

Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sat May 23, 2015, 06:31 PM

1. I liked the post

that said that he grew up in Brooklyn so therefore he's a friend to African Americans. As if growing up in the highly segregated Brooklyn of the 50s and 60s would mean anything. I guess Archie Bunker would be a good candidate if he were a real person too. I grew up in a diverse desegregated school district and my God if there aren't some horribly racist people who went to my high school. Even growing up someplace desegregated doesn't prove anything.

I have been a Sanders fan, but I have to say that I'm concerned by what I'm seeing here at DU. Many of the most vocal Sanders supporters are the very same people who dismiss cases of racism, sexism, and homophobia routinely, or even as sport. But the Clinton supporters by and large are the people who have these issues on their radar. THere seems to be a real trend. It gives me pause.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #1)

Sat May 23, 2015, 07:15 PM

2. Perfectly said. And I forgot where one person enters the thread and said that Hillary's 87%

support in the black community was proof of people "voting against their best interests." Wow. And when told how smug and needlessly superior s/he sounded, just brushed it off as usual.

But your point about Sanders growing up in segregated America is well made. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. If he did grow up in segregated Brooklyn but still marched in support of black civil rights, that is really genuinely awesome and he deserves alot of praise for that. But what's he done in the last 50 years that deserves praise?

Many of the most vocal Sanders supporters are the very same people who dismiss cases of racism, sexism, and homophobia routinely, or even as sport. But the Clinton supporters by and large are the people who have these issues on their radar. THere seems to be a real trend. It gives me pause.

It actually doesn't surprise me that much. The level of political understanding and sophistication on DU is so tiny that it doesn't surprise me in the least that so many of the loudest, most clueless people here are screaming in praise of a 70 year old socialist who's not even a Democrat. And you can bet much of that praise is because -- even though they'd deny this until the cows come home -- they know deep down he would never win and thus, never have the chance to govern. Which means he'll never get the chance to "disappoint" them because he'll never have to actually do anything.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #2)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:18 PM

141. This ...

 

And you can bet much of that praise is because -- even though they'd deny this until the cows come home -- they know deep down he would never win and thus, never have the chance to govern. Which means he'll never get the chance to "disappoint" them because he'll never have to actually do anything.


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Response to gollygee (Reply #1)

Sat May 23, 2015, 07:23 PM

3. "Many of the most vocal"

 

I think every group, whether supporters of Hillary, Bernie, the president, etc, attract a small group of people who are incredibly vocal but relatively small in number. The vocal minority sometimes gives everyone else a bad name.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #1)

Sun May 24, 2015, 10:32 PM

35. +1. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #35)

Mon May 25, 2015, 05:59 PM

53. Hey you

You are one of a (dwindling) handful of people here whose posts I read knowing that this is someone who knows what they're talking about and I'm about to learn something.

What did you think when you saw CaliDem's thread?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #53)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:22 PM

55. I think we've got trouble, right here in DU city!

With a capital T and that rhymes with D and that stands for .... disruptors!!!

I gotta say, some of the people who are touting themselves as enthusiastic Sanders supporters are coming off like assholes. Total, complete, nasty-ass ASSHOLES. Racialicious, rude, prevaricating, bullshitting assholes. "Duuuuuh, I am going to vote for Clinton because I recognize her NAME" was particularly rich. Because, I guess, only "some people" are "smart" and consider things like "the issues," or "experience" or other factors when choosing a candidate.

Not all of 'em are disruptors, of course, some are simply Useful Tools, egged on by the disruptors, given "high fives" and "plus ones" and other expressions of approval--but the ones that are playing very specific games, saying things that Senator Sanders wouldn't ever say on his worst day after dropping a sledgehammer on his bunion-toe, those people have an agenda. The agenda is not to elect Bernie Sanders to anything. It's also not the DU agenda to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to public office.

It's obvious these specific disruptors don't care about "Bernie!" despite their rainbow colored sig lines--otherwise they wouldn't make asses of themselves and represent him as a "leader" of a bunch of crude, hate-filled "supporters" who can so easily shop falsehoods and express characterizations about people that can only be regarded as ... intolerant.

There's nothing wrong with Senator Sanders--he's a nice guy. He's sincere, he's well meaning, he is plain spoken. You get what you see with him, make no mistake. He's not the bad guy in all this, though he's getting splashed with some of the sewage put out by those who are pretending/claiming to help him.

Some of the people holding themselves out to be his supporters, here, though--they aren't emulating any of his traits. But they are working real hard to try to divide Democrats ahead of a general election.

I'm gonna laugh at them, and point 'em out when it gets too deep. I'm not going to take them seriously, though--because that's what they want. They'll have to try to fish in some other pond~I ain't biting!

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Response to MADem (Reply #55)

Mon May 25, 2015, 07:23 PM

63. See! This is why I asked!

I knew you'd straight shoot and give me the skinny!

There's nothing wrong with Senator Sanders--he's a nice guy. He's sincere, he's well meaning, he is plain spoken. You get what you see with him, make no mistake. He's not the bad guy in all this, though he's getting splashed with some of the sewage put out by those who are pretending/claiming to help him.

I feel exactly the same. He's not the bad guy. He seems to be a pretty straightforward, if remarkably UNremarkable long term senator. I'm not aware of everything he's said or done but what I am aware of, I've not disagreed with at all. So it truly baffles and befuddles me that such are remarkably UNremarkable man who seems to be a pretty decent, straight shooting guy has such hyper, unhinged and "devoted" "supporters" who are tearing down every other Dem candidate in order to hype him up.

What exactly is it about him that makes his fans carry on so much? Someone, I think it was frazzled, posted his achievements in another thread a while back. I kid you not, so far the most remarkable actual ACHIEVEMENT -- not what he's GOING to do, what he's actually DONE -- from Sanders is that he got a post office renamed. Ummmm, how long has he been a Senator again????

"Duuuuuh, I am going to vote for Clinton because I recognize her NAME" was particularly rich. Because, I guess, only "some people" are "smart" and consider things like "the issues," or "experience" or other factors when choosing a candidate.

You know, nothing shocks me here anymore. Absolutely nothing. But sometimes, something comes along that so markedly shows how some white people think about black people, hell how they think about their supposedly "fellow" Democrats and it just kind of gives you pause, you know what I'm saying? That was one of those times as well as the "well, they're voting against their own interests" bit as well. Because the idea that black people, Hispanics, women, Democrats as a whole are so stupid that they are giving Hillary these absolutely MASSIVE approval ratings merely because they know who she is or are too damned stupid to "know what's good for 'em" is one of those statements that says a hell of alot more about the person making it (that they've got their fingers in their ears and their eyes scrunched shut trying DESPERATELY to ignore the truth and the obvious) than about the people they're talking about.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #63)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:23 AM

85. This sounds very much like an argument

I've heard from right-wingers: that African Americans, by voting for Pres. Obama, voted against their own self-interests, and that they only voted for him because he is also African Americans. One person even told me that this was evidence that African Americans shouldn't be allowed to vote, because they displayed a lack of intelligence by voting the way they did. Yes, really.

Do progressive people realize what they're saying when they make arguments like this? I don't know if they're aware just what assumptions lie behind their statements.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #63)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:08 AM

117. I saw JAG's reply to you on a week old thread and got so mad, I burst into tears and signed out.

I found it from a new one. I wanted to see the latest on flooding and had to sign in to use my Ignore and Trash feature.

Sure saw one or two going at you for plain talking and I understood what you meant. It was ugly there.

Wondering if anyone else has that reaction can tell me how you guys stop that happening. TIA.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 03:01 PM

189. I disagree about Clinton Supporters here. I can't bring up

 

any criticisms about Bill's policies which have hurt black Americans as a whole.

I cannot bring up anything about Hillary, Bill, or their surrogates' horribly racist behavior during the 2008 primaries--those are dismissed, ignored. I am told to "chill out" and shut up. I am told that the Clintons are not racists. Rather than even acknowledge the scorched earth politics they resorted to in 2008, many Clinton supports quickly dismiss or even deny that such a thing happened. What is worse, they falsely claim that the Obama camp planted these things in the minds of black voters. But voters are not stupid. We are not dumb. I heard these statements myself. This wasn't a figment of my imagination. I heard it!

The Clintons never apologized for their behavior--even as black Americans have stood by them throughout all the scandals. Black voters have been most loyal of ANY constituency group.

Maybe we need to start having a more critical eye. Interesting I see more criticism of Obama (fair and not), but it was partly Clinton's policies that have continued to have an adverse impact on the black community; yet, I see no criticism at all of him.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #189)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 07:21 PM

193. That's a good point

I've read a bit about the 2008 primaries here and some Clinton supporters have dismissed that as well.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sat May 23, 2015, 07:39 PM

4. Can you link? I can't find that OP. nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #4)

Sat May 23, 2015, 07:56 PM

5. Pretty sure it's on the front page of GD.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sat May 23, 2015, 08:12 PM

6. I don't think the exclusionary nature of that politics is incidental

I actually think it is key, for some at least. We see repeated threads resurrecting presidents from the Jim Crow era, even after having it pointed out now problematic it is to long for those days. Some respond extremely hostility if you even raise the issue, call us idiots for not assuming they don't mean that. Well, if they don't, why do they keep hearkening back to a past when most Americans were denies equal rights and lived in crippling poverty? The hostile anger in response is hardly reassuring, nor is it intended to be.

African Americans are fine as long as they go along with what the people who matter--themselves--want, but if they start raising their own concerns and talking about stuff like white privilege and racism--if they start acting too black-- that is "divisive." Feminists are okay as long as they focus on abortion, on making it easier for men to have sexual access to women, but if they threaten the privilege of liberal men, then that is "divisive." People have openly lamented the drift of the party toward the concerns of women, people of color, and LGBT as part of the "Third Way." They have dismissed Obama's DOJ as doing "nothing," referring to "no-balls Holder," someone so ineffective as to be emasculated. In reality, we know Holder did a great deal for voting rights and rape victims on college campuses. Those accomplishments can only be considered nothing when they people whose lives they effect are nothing. The sum total of these comments leaves me with an impression that, like the GOP, they want to take America back, though they have somewhat different visions of what that past was like.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #6)

Sat May 23, 2015, 08:42 PM

7. Show me a DUer tossing out the "Third Way" insult and I'll show you an individual that I will be

PROUD to make sure that I am on the opposite end of every single position they hold. They could say "I'm pro-puppies!" and it will suddenly turn me pro-kittens.

Because not only is that insult the ravings of the paranoid and the stupid, it's also a surefire way to guarantee that whoever is tossing it out has NO CLUE of this country's racial history and couldn't care less about it. Like you said, the fact that this insult is usually accompanied by open pining for the "Good Old Days" and is typically tossed at people advocating for women, minorities and gays could not make their agenda more transparent. One of the many reasons alot of minorities don't see much difference between some of these folks and the Tea Party.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #7)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:31 PM

94. "Third Way!!!!!!" is as silly as "Socialist!!!!!!!!!!"

Hell, the Socialists don't want anything to do with Bernie, anymore--they insult him by calling him a (gasp) .... (wait for it) .... (I had to laugh, too...!)


DEMOCRAT!!!





Honest to GAWD, I am not kidding about this....

Just this month, courtesy of SocialistWorker.org (the whole thing is ugly, but here's just a snip):

In fact, on the decisive issue today of racist police brutality, Hillary Clinton is actually posturing to Sanders' left. She has raised questions about the drug war and ending mass incarceration--though, of course, largely to cover her complicity with Bill Clinton's vast expansion of both. By contrast, in a recent CNN interview, Sanders, after expressing sympathy for cops' supposedly "difficult job," managed to call only for jobs and community policing.

His foreign policy positions are to the right of many liberal Democrats. Sanders voted in favor of George W. Bush's original Authorization for Use of Military Force resolution that gave the administration a green light to launch the war on Afghanistan. While he did vote against Bush's invasion of Iraq, he repeatedly supported funding resolutions for both U.S. occupations. He is also a Zionist who supports Israel consistently, even after its recent escalations of the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza.

Sanders' backing of U.S. imperialism compromises his support for workers' rights. For example, Sanders supports the basing of the new F-35 warplane at Burlington's airport, despite the fact that the fighter-bomber's ear-shattering noise made scores of working-class housing unsafe for habitation.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

LIKE MANY leftists before him, the Democratic Party has co-opted and changed Bernie Sanders, using him to help hinder the development of a genuine alternative to the capitalist parties.

His campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination will be, at best, a re-run of Jesse Jackson's primary runs in 1984 and 1988. Jackson's campaigns galvanized an entire section of the left, channeled it toward the Democratic Party and directed its remnants to vote for a succession of corporate candidates like Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis.


http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/05/problem-bernie-sanders

And this is not a new theme--they have been shitting on that poor guy for nearly ten years, now:

http://socialistworker.org/2006-2/610/610_11_BernieSanders.shtml


But that was long ago. Now Sanders is independent in name only--he in fact supports the Democratic Party.

As his long-time antagonist and now ally, Democratic National Committee Chair Howard Dean, said on the NBC's Meet the Press, "He is basically a liberal Democrat, and he is a Democrat at that--he runs as an Independent because he doesn't like the structure and money that gets involved...The bottom line is that Bernie Sanders votes with the Democrats 98 percent of the time." Ironically, that's more often than most Democrats vote with the Democrats.

Sanders' voting record is also not so very left wing; one study found that 38 other congressional representatives had a more progressive voting record. ... In the 2006 Senate election, he didn't even really run as an independent. The Democrats cut a deal with Sanders--they wouldn't run a candidate against him, in exchange for him supporting Democrats in other races.

The Democrats backed up their word by nominating Sanders in their primary, which he refused to accept to preserve his nominal independence. But Sanders did accept support from national Democrats like Chuck Schumer, Harry Reid, Barack Obama and Barbara Boxer. He also accepted a large donation from Hillary Clinton's Political Action Committee, HILLPAC, which featured him as one of its most important candidates.

Sanders in turn backed Democrats against third-party alternatives. .... Sanders' endorsement of the Democrats no doubt helped him build his war chest of about $5 million, over 80 percent of which came from out of state.

To put an exclamation point on his all-but-declared membership in the Democratic Party, Sanders celebrated his election victory, contrary to his tradition of hosting a separate party, with the Democrats. He has promised to caucus with the Democrats in the Senate, and the media thus takes him for granted as part of the new majority in the Senate.


For some relentless scolds, NO one is "pure enough." There are jollies to be had for finding a candidate wanting, I guess. Bernie has seen this kind of excoration before--and he's not getting it from the people who are sitting just to his right, he's not getting shade from Clinton supporters, who regard him as an honorable guy-- he is getting crap from the people who are sitting to his LEFT.

For the Socialist Far Left, poor Senator Sanders is simply the Traitor of the Month. Those links are about as nasty and unkind as some of the crap flung at SECSTATE Clinton.

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Response to MADem (Reply #94)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:45 PM

95. Whoops! Those are some very inconvenient truths.

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Response to MADem (Reply #94)

Tue May 26, 2015, 05:45 PM

97. Now ain't THAT a surprise!



Sanders being slammed by the socialists??! Is NOTHING sacred anymore???!

Sanders getting slammed from the left! I have TRULY seen it all now. If this doesn't sound EXACTLY like the counter productive idiocy that's been hurled at Obama for the last seven years I don't know what will. This insane desire some on the "left" have to tear down and destroy anyone who even ATTEMPTS to represent their interests is the height of insanity and stupidity. I'm sure if our friends in GD saw this, they would just accuse the socialists of "eating their own" and "trying to tear down a good man."

I am DYING. I am blown away. That is one HELL of a contribution to this thread.


If Sanders had his heart set on national politics, he could have run for president like Ralph Nader as an independent, opposing both capitalist parties, the Democrats and Republicans. He would have been appealing for a protest vote, rather than any real chance to win, but Sanders rejected this possibility out of hand for a different reason. "No matter what I do," Sanders said in January, "I will not be a spoiler. I will not play that role in helping to elect some right-wing Republican as president of the United States."

In other words, Sanders refused to consider an independent presidential campaign not because he had little chance of winning, but because he didn't want to compete for vote with the Democrats' eventual nominee. There's no reason to believe he will be a "bold alternative" at the end of his doomed campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

In jumping into the Democratic Party primaries, Sanders appointed a quintessential corporate party insider, Ted Devine, to be his campaign manager. Devine has worked for a series of Democratic presidential campaigns, stretching back to Walter Mondale and running through to John Kerry.


Holy moly. Even an obligatory CORPORATIST shot too!! It's harsh but I have to admit that's actually some intelligent, legitimate criticism. And is much, much different and pragmatic than much of the idiocy that's been tossed at Obama from Firedoglake and Counterpunch.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #97)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:02 PM

101. They HATE him--it's astounding, some of the vitriol. As they say, "But WAIT-there's MORE!"

It sounds a lot like they've got the same copy editor as some of the Clinton-hatin' crew up in here!

They get so MAD about shit--Ooooh--he's a WARMONGER!!!! Oooooh, he's a RACIST!!!!! Oooooh--he's a ZIONIST!!!! OOOooooh--he's 'pro-NSA!!!!!"

I'm not kidding--read some of this stuff, take out Sanders, put in Clinton, and it sounds like some of the nuance-free pablum I've seen here--just hate, anger, misrepresentation and a complete failure to look at the Big Picture:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/05/15/sand-m15.html

When Burlington business interests and radical posturing came into conflict, Sanders came down unhesitatingly on the side his bread was buttered on. One former supporter, in a recent letter to socialistworker.org, describes how Central American solidarity activists picketed the General Electric factory in Burlington that manufactured machineguns used in military helicopters against peasant guerrillas: “I vividly remember Bernie standing arms-folded alongside the right-wing union officials from the factory and the Burlington Police Department as we were being arrested. He falsely insinuated that we were ‘anti-worker,’ and he refused to have any serious political dialogue with us activists.”
In 1990 Sanders ran for the House of Representatives, defeating an incumbent Republican and a Democrat in a three-way race. During congressional deliberations over authorizing the first Gulf War, Sanders declared his support for sanctions, diplomatic pressure and even the use of US forces to “pressure” Iraq into submission, while stopping, along with most congressional Democrats, just short of voting for the actual war. This caveat was dropped in 1993, when Sanders voted for US intervention in Somalia. Sanders then voted for the NATO air war against Serbia in 1999.....

Sanders voted in 2001 for the Authorization for the Use of Military Force, the congressional resolution that was the basis of George Bush’s invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and the launching of the “war on terror,” and which is still cited by Barack Obama as the legal justification for drone-missile assassinations in Pakistan, Yemen and other countries. He regularly voted for military appropriations bills, required to fund the ongoing war in Iraq Sanders claimed to oppose.

.....Sanders' stance on immigration is entirely in line with right-wing efforts to scapegoat millions of impoverished and exploited Hispanic workers
for the falling living standards of American working class. He has repeatedly introduced bills in Congress calling for the suspension of the federal visa program under the guise of protecting American jobs. For his efforts, he has earned the admiration of noted anti-immigrant racist and talk show host Lou Dobbs, who called him “one of the few straight talkers in Congress.”
....



Now, as I've said, I think these comments--where they take facts, votes, particularly, which happened after a lot of negotiation, compromise, and "best of a bad lot" bargaining, and put inflamed rhetoric around those facts to incite people towards hatred--are beyond the pale. I like Senator Sanders, and I find these characterizations of him egregious. But then, I find a lot of the characterizations of former SecState Clinton by some of Sanders' (cough) supporters (cough) here equally egregious. They should be ashamed of themselves--I can only assume they simply don't know HOW to feel that emotional response!

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Response to MADem (Reply #101)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:25 AM

119. OMGawd! The Turd Ways have set the SWP against the Messiah! Thanks, I needed the laugh.

Last edited Wed May 27, 2015, 03:29 AM - Edit history (1)

I've come to see the SWP like the Libertarians - because with of the take no prisoners, intense hatred of Democrats, far more than Republicans, they end up with the same effect.

I'm sick of such being collateral damage while these groups bring about a Utopia over me and my friends and family's dead bodies!

I look to the end results. I know these characters consider Democrats as inferior as the GOP and Libertarians do.

We're just dumb to them, don't know what we're doing, and refuse to listen to their wisdom.

Note: Using the term Messiah is not dissing Bernie, it may seem that way, but it's been a bit too much to listen to some of it. And doesn't it seem like some of the incivility has died down a little bit?

I really like both candidates, but that article would really set some of the members aflame. It's really OTT, but it does fit the way the SWP truly feels about Democrats. No POTUS what isn't doctrinaire will be accepted by them.

And as I said when Obama took office, those who railed about him being a warmonger, trying to end a war he disagreed with, didn't know what the job title entitles. I said early on, I knew I wasn't voting for the Prince of Peace when I voted, but a secular government official.

So why was he being held to that standard, even by those who didn't believe in such?

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Response to freshwest (Reply #119)

Wed May 27, 2015, 04:59 AM

127. That Utopia

Would come only with a great deal of collateral damage to human beings.

I'm just not ready to tear America to shreds when it could mean older people being thrown out in the streets - just to make a point.

And I'm convinced some of these folks think on day one - everyone with the tiniest bit of money or a home is going to be rounded up, given a potato sack to wear - and raw potatoes to eat for punishment.

It's an extreme concept - but I read a few posts last year / engaged with someone who thought everyone should be taxed down to $15 an hour. That was the way to equality.

My first thought - she lived in a square state and didn't own a home.

You send very single mortgage holder into the streets in NJ.

Utopia Freshwest - Utopia!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #127)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 03:06 AM

181. Thanks for what you said... And I found the post about confiscation... I've no problem with wealth

that doesn't seek to harm those without it. I loved the robust public school system I attended way-back-when where we had all income levels and types in the same classes.

There were also accomodations made for those with less money who worked off campus during the school day to help their families survive and plenty of vocational traiining on campus. When a person graduated high school, they had a trade of several types if that was what they wanted or fit into.

It was also interesting going to public college with stundents with more or less wealth. In all situations, they still acted as equals as the school treated them that way. But we all gave experiences of different lives and ways of thinking to each other.

A person could easily go straight to work or college upon leaving school. This 'pull the rug out from some other person' doesn't serve any group in a democracy. Some people are scratching the outside of their shoe to get to the itchy food that's more personal in how they approach others.

I really appreciated you telling us about how The Gio gave a helping hand to the young lady to enter a different world. I was offered 2 4year all expenses paid art scholarhships, one in OR and the other in VT to attend but my family said they needed me and I stayed to help.

How different my life might have been if I'd left them. Water under the bridge, though. I did what I thought was right at the time I did it.

Those opportunities you and yours gave are changing lives. Bless you and The Gio for what you are doing.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #119)

Thu May 28, 2015, 11:13 PM

172. And you've talked about Sanders favorably for a very long time

while the rest were pining away for Warren. They've even alienated you. That is quite an accomplishment.

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Response to MADem (Reply #94)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:53 PM

103. Oh good Lord. Some people seriously have got nothing better to do with their boring lives...

....than to tear down other folks and their achievements.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #103)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:14 PM

104. I don't care for these crazy "purity tests." People are either good people who want things

like health care and choice and decent people on the Supremes, or they're not. We're never going to find a candidate who checks every block, EVER--because all politics is local.

Picking apart a candidate's record looking for the "gotcha" moments is just lame as hell, IMO. In order for candidates to gain experience, they've gotta make a few missteps. If they don't there's something not-quite-right.

I look at the arc of a candidate's intentions. Both Clinton and Sanders are on the right side of justice. They're on the right side of equality in all its forms. They're on the right side of children and the elderly. To try to tear one or the other apart is just silly. I did have to laugh at those World Socialist screeds, though--the HRC Bashing Club has apparently taken a few lessons over that way!

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Response to MADem (Reply #104)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:33 PM

105. I co-sign every single word of this post

Picking apart a candidate's record looking for the "gotcha" moments is just lame as hell, IMO. In order for candidates to gain experience, they've gotta make a few missteps. If they don't there's something not-quite-right.

I look at the arc of a candidate's intentions. Both Clinton and Sanders are on the right side of justice. They're on the right side of equality in all its forms. They're on the right side of children and the elderly. To try to tear one or the other apart is just silly.


For the win!

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Response to MADem (Reply #104)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:03 AM

128. That tearing apart

The cherry picking

Someone tried that int O'Malley group and called those who liked Sanders - Sandernistas.

Evidently the same poster posted something similar in the Sanders group?

I'm gonna say someone who posts something like that - doesn't really want any Democratic party member to ascend tithe white house.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #128)

Wed May 27, 2015, 11:11 AM

131. SANDERNISTAS? It's an hilarious play on words...if you're a Republican!

I think it's an effort to associate Sanders with "revolutionary" types who want to pull down the existing government. It does seem to me like a "scare" association.

Of course, the problem there is that kids today, thanks to Teaching to the Test, think Ronald Reagan was a founding father--they probably think The Sandinistas was one of their parents' favorite emo rock groups!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #6)

Sun May 24, 2015, 04:06 AM

16. 'The hostile anger in response is hardly reassuring, nor is it intended to be.'

Last edited Sun May 24, 2015, 05:56 PM - Edit history (1)

That right there:

'nor is it intended to be' because they are telling us to STFU.

And the maudlin longing for the past and 'my friends' routine is so Rush Limbaugh!

And the fans sound like Dittoheads!

I put on Ignore anyone who tried the canard of the 3rd Way. They diss a lot of people who don't agree with DINOs and all the rest, with a broad brush.

But they're telling those who don't follow the mob, to FOAD.

HRC and Sanders have some fences to mend with POC... I feel onpatrol said it best...

All of that 99% stuff is secondary to one's life being in jeopardy.

I feel we are being played, truly, by media and DUers on both sides of this issue (not the real people in danger) who want to cause more despair. They have no solution but yelling.

I'm not talkng about AA's - I'm talking about hangers on who hide behind the dead bodies of AA's for their agenda.

MADem explained how very well.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:19 PM

183. That was the hallmark of Hillary's campaign in 2007-8...

 

...her "hard working white people" comment was meant to get those white voters in states where they all knew Obama couldn't win due to his skin color voting for her. The more she found herself losing the caucuses, delegates and Super Delegates, the worse she, her husband and their surrogates became.

I can't, for the life of me, understand why some black folk here on DU and in the general black electorate don't remember--dismiss, even ignore--the despicable behavior of the Clintons, their surrogates and supporters during the primaries. The racism was so real and so palatable that I nearly became physical ill whenever I saw Hillary or her husband back them.

There were never any apologies to black voters who have always adored Bill Clinton, even when he lied to us. Black folk were always the most loyal and made the most excuses for this man's behavior...and worst of all--HIS HORRIBLE POLICIES that continue to have negative impacts on the black community as a whole. ( Oh, I'm sorry...we blame Obama for that, not those responsible! )

Anyway, for these reasons I simply cannot support HRC and I will not. I was working on that and trying to come to a place of forgiveness, but I just cannot. Clinton stink and hubris won't allow me to do so.

(At least not right now...maybe I'll feel different later...but not now.)

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #183)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 09:35 PM

202. I'm 75% white and almost 74 years old and I could not agree more

What the Clintons did to Obama in 2008 was not just play the race card, they played the entire race deck. African American voters who can forgive that are better people than I am and I don't have a dog in that fight (my other 25% is Native American).

I haven't always agreed with Obama's policies, in fact I've been critical of them on occasion. Nevertheless I still firmly believe that selecting him as the 2008 nominee was the correct decision, and that nominating Hillary Clinton would have more or less assured that Sarah Palin would right now be a heartbeat away from the White House.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sat May 23, 2015, 09:05 PM

8. I've long had suspicions about the bulk of the Puritopians here.

The Snoop Dog thread put all of that to rest. The thread to which you refer is another in what I assume will be an ongoing flow of confirmations.

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Response to OilemFirchen (Reply #8)

Sun May 24, 2015, 02:50 AM

9. I didn't read the Snoop Dogg thread but I can guess the responses

"Oh, he's rich so THAT'S why he's supporting Hillary!" "He doesn't care anymore about the hood since he got his so THAT'S why he's supporting Hillary!"

Because this is the same crowd that thinks that class is the last great hurdle to jump over now in Western society and so if a rich black man or rich black woman supports the Great Satan that is Hillary, it must be because s/he's got theirs and doesn't care about regular black people anymore. These folks also believe that because Beyonce and Oprah are stinking rich, that they no longer face racism or discrimination or that any discrimination they actually do face because of the color of their skin isn't really a big deal because they are rich.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #9)

Sun May 24, 2015, 12:52 PM

20. Yeah I think you nailed it. n/t

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Response to Number23 (Reply #9)

Sun May 24, 2015, 09:52 PM

34. Here we have...

One black man. Three women, one white, two women of color. They are rich. So they are free. Not.

Wealth without equality means absolutely nothing. Economic justice without social just is , in a word, meaningless.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #9)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:23 PM

110. I started the Snoop Dog thread that was trashed

As was my Beyonce thread.


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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #110)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:47 PM

113. What was your Beyonce thread? And I'm sorry that happened to you

It's the "new and improved" DU where libertarians accuse black people of being Third Way or not being black at all.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #113)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:54 PM

114. Snoop got trashed for being rich and saying he liked HRC because we need a woman's perspective.

I pointed out they wouldn't have made it one day in Calvin Broadus' world and that he married innate intelligence and business acumen to musical talent.

They also said he is an anachronism...He's as anachronistic as Paul McCartney, Elton John, and Mick Jagger who still play to packed houses and are seen as rock and roll elders.


Beyonce got trashed for being rich and some of the criticism was personal.


I tried autosearch to resurrect those threads but it was futile.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #114)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:23 PM

184. Not lost on me that Brodus and Bey ARE black. Not lost on me at all!

 

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #184)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 08:05 PM

186. This might give you a chuckle...

My gf and I lost everything in The Great Recession, everything!!!

Out of the blue I get a envelope in the mail at a condo in Orlando I was living in that my friend was letting me and her stay in temporarily for free...It's a check for $2,800.00 or so that was escrow money for the insurance on my foreclosed home.

We took that money to buy a one way ticket to L A where she is from. We were moving a lot and even lived for a while in a hostel in Koreatown.

She eventually found a job and we rented a room from a woman in Van Nuys. This is where the story gets good. Her daughter was a friend of Ice Cube's son... She even went to a Lakers game with him and her mom was telling me about all the security they had...One time she went to their home in Encino and Ice was there and she asked Ice if she could call him Ice. He said, "no, you call me Mr. Jackson."


I thought that was a great story.

BTW, there is a biopic on NWA that comes out on 8/14:




The young man who was her friend , Ice's son, plays him in the movie






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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #186)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 12:21 PM

195. WOW!! His son looks just like him. Spitting image!

 

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #195)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 12:25 PM

196. Complete with jheri curls./NT

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #196)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 01:02 PM

198. I ain't gon' laugh because I had one, too! LOL!

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #113)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:09 AM

118. We're all GOP operatives now is the new meme. n/t

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #110)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:29 AM

120. I remember that. I left when the attacks began. Sorry about it, should have been treated better.

It was just a show business endorsement. Why all the hatred?

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sun May 24, 2015, 02:56 AM

10. I saw all those things too.

I am surprised the collective groans from many DU'ers weren't heard the world over.

As a side note, from the gay perspective (they are slamming us too), I remember more than a few posts screeching about Clinton "pandering" to the GLBT community because of the rainbow "H", yet now all kinds of people, including a few of those who made "pandering" comments, are now supporting rainbow "Bernie" logos.

It is so insulting, and IMO, bigoted, to tell a minority person what they feel or don't feel, it is just a reminder they are the majority, and "we just live in their world!"

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #10)

Sun May 24, 2015, 03:02 AM

11. And there's a post on the front page right now with somebody "hurling" some letters at Obama

and purports to be a Bernie Sanders support thread.

I've said it before a million times, some of these people CANNOT BE FOR REAL. How stupid would you have to be to think that tossing fact free stupidity at the first black president with a 65-85% approval among Democrats is a winning strategy to win people, especially minority groups that no Dem can win without, to your side? Is it possible that anyone could honestly be that dumb?

And you're right - there is no doubt that it's a reminder for us to remember our places. That's why when that person came into the thread saying that the 87% support for Hillary from blacks was "people voting against their best interests" all I could do was just shake my head. Once again, another ignorant, paternalistic swipe that black folks are too stupid to support a candidate for any other reason than we know her name or because we are too stupid to know what's good for us. It's unreal.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #11)

Sun May 24, 2015, 03:16 AM

12. It does make one question how "real" they are.

The comment about Sanders being more aware of racial issues than Obama....thank G-d I wasn't eating anything or I would have choked! I'd like to say I am surprised by some of the comments, but I am really not. Even in college, before the internet, I would hear similar things in regards to AA and their relation to politics and other issues which directly affected them.

"Once again, another ignorant, paternalistic swipe that black folks are too stupid to support a candidate for any other reason than we know her name or because we are too stupid to know what's good for us. It's unreal. "

Know what else is as "unreal", more than few say the same about poor people! Yet, they are supposedly concerned about the poor. Shop at Wal-Mart? HEATHEN! HATER OF POOR PEOPLE! Too many are wrapped in their own worlds to actually see their world isn't the world. Their reality isn't the reality of everyone else.

It is maddening for sure. Is it any wonder than many AA, gays, Jews, and a few other groups no longer or rarely post here?!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #12)

Sun May 24, 2015, 03:22 AM

13. Yes!!

Know what else is as "unreal", more than few say the same about poor people! Yet, they are supposedly concerned about the poor. Shop at Wal-Mart? HEATHEN! HATER OF POOR PEOPLE! Too many are wrapped in their own worlds to actually see their world isn't the world. Their reality isn't the reality of everyone else.

Thank you!!! I have seen that a thousand times said about poor people, shaming them for picking Cheetos that cost 1.25 over organic vegetables that cost six times as much or having the nerve to not have a self-sustaining garden at home. They sound like reverse Paltrows! And yes, crap like this is one of the many, many, MANY reasons so many minorities have left.

When I think of black people who "vote against their interests" I often think of black Republicans. Yes, the Democrats are milquetoast on a lot of issues but in this instance, I'll take milquetoast over "open hatred and plotting my destruction" any day of the week.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #13)

Sun May 24, 2015, 03:43 AM

14. I am the same in regards with minorities who "vote against their interests" being Republicans.

I just don't get it. How does a gay person vote Republican?!? Seriously! Hell, even Jews! Sure, the Republicans "love" Israel, but they hate Jews! They don't "love" Israel, they "need" Israel, either to fulfill their end world fantasies, or serve as a military outpost in a hostile region. It is so confounding.

I have had to step away from DU a few times because of the poor "bashing" I see here. Hell, even those of us in the middle class. I go to Wal-Mart...EVIL. Go to Costco or Target, well, I don't live near either! It would be 60 miles round trip, which means driving a car...EVIL! I should be biking everywhere, never mind this town isn't bicycle friendly and I don't have a death wish. I buy cheaper food (usually with coupons...I am a really good couponer)...why don't you buy organic?! EVIL! I ain't paying three fucking dollars for a bell pepper (and no, I am NOT joking)! Why don't you grow your own?! EVIL! Well, I am not a gardener, any more than I am mechanic, so I have no business in the garden or under the hood of a car. But, when it comes down to it, I am pretty fortunate. I have a loving and good husband, a nice home, and a few bucks in the bank...knocking on wood. Others don't' live in my world. I do what I can, but for some, it is never good enough.

The constant pitting of minorities against one another, not a right-wing thing, but a left-wing thing! The right tramps us down, but some on the left, ignore us or remind us how they know such much better than we do.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #14)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:38 PM

26. You articulated one of the most bizarre and unexplainable things perfectly

Republicans "love" Israel, but they hate Jews!

What the HELL is up with that??! I have NEVER understood the Republican worship of Israel. And I have certainly never understood a group of people that think that everyone that's not a white (preferably blonde) heterosexual Christian is scum so adamantly in love with a country that is the birthplace of a religion that is NOT Christianity. Are there lots of blond Israelis now or something???

I saw a 60 Minutes piece a long time ago where a Rabbi was trying to understand the same thing. Apparently it had something to do with the Rapture and lots of Republicans feeling that the Jews are the gates to the Promised Land after they've all been converted to Christianity or something. Easily one of the most inexplicable things I've ever seen. And to be honest, I still don't get it.

The Rabbi's closing words in the piece was something like "God save us from these people" meaning these wacked out Republicans and that was the only thing that made even the slightest bit of sense to me out of the whole piece.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #13)

Sun May 24, 2015, 04:12 AM

17. I had my fill on that on one of the many 'cat food commission' threads bashing Obama.

Poor people are not stupid just because they are having trouble getting food!

I got so incensed on that thread and I posted and I have never heard it mentioned again.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #17)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:31 PM

24. I think the idea is that some of these folks on the "left" who purport to care about the downtrodden

minorities, women and the poor are only willing to do so as long as these poor misbegotten folks DO AS THEY'RE TOLD.

We've had this discussion in this forum a thousand times. That there is a certain cadre of white "liberals" who may have the noblest of intentions but honestly do believe that they are smarter/wiser/better than many of the people that they are "advocating" for. These people get the most love and affection from these white "liberals" when they do as the smarter/wiser/better liberals tell them what to do, think the way they want them to to think, and agree with the issues they think should be most important to them.

It is paternalism, prejudice and privilege at its most horrendous. Whenever I see these people, I am always tempted to ask, "well if you guys are so much smarter/better/wiser than everyone else, why aren't the halls of power filled to overflowing with your spiritual brethren?" but then that launches into unhinged howls about how the Powers that Be/Alien Overlords/Illuminati/Mafia etc. "won't let them" win and everything just goes to shit so now I don't even bother.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #24)

Sun May 24, 2015, 07:01 PM

30. You nailed it. That is exactly how it goes. n/t

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Response to Number23 (Reply #24)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:58 PM

148. +1 ...

 

What did the Black (Female) DUer post in her Goodbye DU OP? ... white liberals (DUer?) like their negroes, so long as we are victims or servants?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #24)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 12:59 PM

197. When I assert that white liberals can be just as horrible

 

as conservatives of ANY stripe, but white ones especially--THIS is what I meant. And you've articulated exactly what I and many others have been talking about.

But, let one of us call out the racism that is inherent in Liberal America and in the Democratic Party. What will happen? Gnashing of teeth! Demanding that we PROVE racism exists on DU and elsewhere in liberal and/or Democratic circles. Accusing US of being the racists. And the classic: telling us to "chill out," "shut up," and "it's not about race; it's all CLASS!".

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #197)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 05:47 PM

199. It's not about race, it's about class.

If I see that again, I will puke.

It lets me know how absolutely clueless someone is.

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Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #199)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 07:45 PM

208. I almost did when I saw your header before opening the post. :)

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #13)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:50 PM

145. But ... But ...

 

Yes, the Democrats are milquetoast on a lot of issues but in this instance, I'll take milquetoast over "open hatred and plotting my destruction" any day of the week.


That's picking the lesser of two evils ... wait!

"open hatred and plotting my destruction"


You WERE talking about the republicans, here ... Right?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #12)

Sun May 24, 2015, 04:56 AM

18. I missed that particular comment

and as absurd as it is, I can't really say it surprises me. They are so used to talking down to people, the idea that experiencing racism might actually matter is evidently lost.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #11)

Sun May 24, 2015, 07:03 AM

19. Thank god I missed that post

The one that made me realize that I'm going to have to be in it for myself was the class division amongst blacks nonsense.

The quality and extent of ignorance blew me away.

That's someone who has never been at a black wedding or funeral or family reunion.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #10)

Mon May 25, 2015, 09:33 PM

76. hey sweetie!



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Response to dlwickham (Reply #76)

Tue May 26, 2015, 12:06 AM

79. Hey, long time, no see!

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sun May 24, 2015, 03:53 AM

15. Thank you for keeping it on course, as onpatrol did, and glad I missed a whitesplaining thread. n/t

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sun May 24, 2015, 01:32 PM

21. Just finished reading CaliDemocrat's thread.

The hubris and condescension in there are staggering. Clearly, the then two-year-old Barack Obama should have hied himself from Hawaii to Washington, DC, to march with Dr. King. Or something. Sadly, there's a lot of that going round this place these days.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sun May 24, 2015, 05:01 PM

22. "WHAT HAS HE DONE FOR YOU LATELY???!!"

Uh, I'm gonna go with Nothing? Excellent o.p., by the way. And I stand by my earlier prediction that Bernie Sanders won't be able to make any significant inroads into HRC's support in the black community.

I don't know why anyone would be surprised that given the total lack of respect shown to the current president, that black folks took a hike from this place. Those of us remaining are either gluttons for punishment, or are just too damned stubborn to be run off. I'm not interested in Bernie Sanders, either as a legislator, and certainly not the nominee for the Democratic party. In case anyone's forgotten, he was the ornery asshole who was seeking a Democrat to primary the president (the first black POTUS) in his re-election bid. Bernie's not even a Democrat, what the hell gave him the right to insinuate himself into our intra-party politics? And caucusing with us is not the same as being a party member.

Bernie's supporters, and I'm almost certain Michael Moore will be one, haven't a clue how much they've alienated the black community. When Michael Moore can say that the first black president will only be remembered for that, I've got a serious problem with liberals and liberalism in general. There's something very ugly going on, and the blind contempt for Obama has obviously transferred to his black supporters. Maybe they think we're the only group of supporters left?

When I read a post of some young white know nothing, trying to explain black people to black people, I know we've gone through the looking glass, and there ain't no coming back from that. We have a poster who has obviously set out to drive a wedge between Black Lives Matter, and the black community at large (not that they give a shit about "Black Lives", but they're trying like hell to be divisive. Of course, that's never going to happen because in the black community we know that no matter what your status, or what you've achieved, to many outside our community we still "all look alike". They did the same thing with Occupy, when a civil rights legend who was only there to lend support (John Lewis) was booed offstage. Since the election of Barack Obama, I've learned much more about liberals than I ever cared to.

There was a poster the other day who thought that the election of Bernie Sanders would somehow be good for Julian Assange & Edward Snowden. Considering U.S. public opinion of those two, that's not something I'd be saying out loud if I were a Bernie supporter.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #22)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:26 PM

23. Plus 1000 on all of this

I don't see Sanders getting the black community OR the blue collar crafts/skilled workers aka three trucks at most business owners. I don't see him getting the financial support of the small business "shop" owners.

I don't see him offering much to working class kids in rural and urban areas that didn't get the basics in their formative education who need to start making serious money now - not in seven years. I see that from Webb and O'Malley - I don't see it from Sanders.

And if Clinton ascends - O'Malley and Webb supporters will throw our support and vote behind her.

But I'll be asking her to find room in her education budget for kids that want to learn welding, soldering, HVAC, auto repair, etc etc.

And for anyone who thinks that's a "male only" proposition - my husband's "fair haired girl" is a 25 year old African American woman from Camden NJ who used to hide in a cast iron bath tub to avoid bullets. She was on track to be a nail technician until he did career day 9 years ago and she heard "yes she can".

She's making 80k a year without student loans and has hung from church ceilings in Belgium, Spain, and Ireland this year.


She couldn't have imagined that ten years ago - that her passport would be filled, she'd have a condo in Bucks County AND tat she could pay for her younger brother to go to Community College.

Sorry for the rant - but Sanders may "get that" - but he might be spending too much time on Snowden and Assange to communicate ideas that will expand the skilled/artisan class. We can only get so far without people who can thrown hammers against anvils - and these 3D printers can only do so much.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #23)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:35 AM

36. I'm so happy for your husband's daughter.

While we can all get discouraged (I know I do at times) it's also amazing to think of positive examples like the one you gave.

I've seen this type of thing happen in my area too. One of my best friends started out as a production assistant in movies, then moved to the art department, has worked as a key grip and now she's working as an assistant director.

When I first met her she was living out of her car, she had just moved here and didn't know anyone. I liked her immediately. You can just tell with some people, how they are very attentive and you know you can recommend them. I introduced her to people who hired her and she's proven herself every step of the way.

I get so much satisfaction from that, seeing people work hard and get ahead, breaking down barriers in what used to be more male dominated departments. She has even worked as 'lead man' and it always cracks me up when she says it. She's just tough and cool.

Now I know I'm blabbing a lot, lol. It's fun sometimes to not just talk political candidates. I love sharing real stories too. I'm often encouraged by your posts (and those of everyone in this group) and just felt like sharing.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #36)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:14 AM

42. It's not his daughter!

That's - his star. .

All it took was someone saying - here's what you can do. Here's an open door. Here's a hand.

Imagine a country where learning how to install solar panels (we've seen training and certification programs priced in the 20K range) was as valuable as being a CPA or network analyst.

And your friend? We need a lot more like HER in the American Film Industry! She has a story to tell.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #42)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:15 PM

48. Oh I'm sorry!

I don't want to go starting any rumors, roflmao.

Yes, precisely. I love mentoring and providing a helping hand.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #48)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:15 PM

54. LOL! -

. . . That I know of.






On a side bar - I've asked what he would do if he ever found out he had a long lost 'love child' - he's like -

Shit like that you just gotta go with!

Then he posed the question back and I just shook my head in disgust.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #54)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:51 PM

78. He sounds like a very funny man.

Especially that he would pose the question back to you. You'd be like 'What? I had a kid? Gee. I didn't even know!'

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #23)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:52 PM

44. If only 20% of the electorate calls itself "liberal", then that's Sanders high watermark.

Someone may peel off a significant chunk of AA's, but it won't be Bernie Sanders, I can almost guarantee it. Except here at DU, nobody's talking about him. They're already griping that "the media" isn't covering him seriously. I use black barbershops & beauty salons as my gauge of public sentiment in my community. As we know, if they ain't talking about you where we "get our hair did" (per my Grandma), they either (a)don't know who you are, or (b)don't give a shit. I'm going with Option "B".

We see governments all over Europe taking sharp right turns, and quite frankly, it's kinda scary. Hopefully, we won't do that, but this country is not going to elect the leftiest of the left, when the rest of the western world is going in the opposite direction. Center left is just fine by me. If that makes me "Turd Way", so be it. Screaming about "millionaires & billionaires" can only carry you so far.

And kudos to your husband for seeing a need, and actually doing something about it. I wish there was much more of that. And to be plucked out of obscurity, and given an opportunity like this, must be an emotional rollercoaster for that lucky young lady. I hope she will pay it forward.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #44)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:22 PM

149. This weekend, while driving back from visiting ...

 

BabyGirl 1SBM, I asked (for the first time) what Mrs. 1SBM thought of Bernie Sanders? Her response was, "Who?"

Now this is a woman who, while largely disinterested in politics, has not missed an election since 1978; does about 10-15 hours a week doing volunteer work with the low-incomed folks ... (and sleeps next to a guy that IS fully politically engaged!) ... She is the demographic that Bernie needs (even more so than me) and she does even know who he is.

But even worse, after doing the google and seeing his platform, she said, "I like what he is for; but, I see he's been in Congress for nearly 40 years ... why am I just now hearing of him? He may have been talking about this stuff; but, he certainly hasn't accomplished much of note!"

Again, she is the demographic that Bernie needs.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #149)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:31 PM

152. Dammit 1SBM, I've been asking the same questions that Mrs. 1SBM is asking. Bernie's been huffing &

puffing around DC for decades, and what's he got to show for it? If he's as influential as his supporters seem to think, why hasn't he been able to drag his colleagues (kicking & screaming) to his causes? And what's going to make them listen to him in the White House, when he's been just across the aisle all these years? It defies logic. Much like your wife, I observe that Bernie says a lot of "good stuff", but that seems to be where it ends.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #152)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:55 PM

156. The pro-Sanders response is ...

 

"Look at all his amendments!!!" (Read: He voted for a bad bill because his amendment made it less bad?)

I hate to say it; but, it seems his 40+ year career can be summed up as, "He introduced a lot of stuff that never left committee; he voted against a lot of stuff that passed, anyway; and, he voted for some bad stuff that he made less bad through amendments."

That is not too impressive ... actual Dennis Kucinich (who was my early 2008 Primary choice, because I'm from Cleveland and knew his grit) comes to mind.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #156)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:06 PM

158. +1. Just being the loudest brings you no reward. You get a lot of facetime on the teevee machine,

but at the end of the day, it's about accomplishments (or lack thereof) over a period of four decades. Kooch was a firebrand, but here again, what were his accomplishments, besides naming a post office?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #158)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:22 PM

159. But let me stop ...

 

before I am labeled a Bernie-basher and in the HRC tank.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #22)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:36 PM

25. I didn't know about the primary thing. The Occupy thing got too Paulish for me. The coffins at the

2012 DNC and the insistence that they were the only ones who cared if people had anything to eat, that the DP had done nothing for the poor, etc., was a meme I refuted with data and they studiously avoided my post and continued to diss PBO and Democrats on the thread.

That is a pattern, so I no longer refute that way. ProSense was treated vilely for her 'blue links.' I was greatly disappointed at how so much of these 'liberal' things turned out.

Once again, I think MADem has a good analysis of what is going on with Sanders. And I don't see that the rude supporters care about him, he's just a tool against HRC and the Democrats.

As far as AA's leaving, I get that, but I would truly miss them since this group is the best informed of any group and it discusses things from all POV. The idea that AA's do not know what is going is ludricous. AA's can't afford to play ignorant and naive. It makes the discussions here much more important.



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Response to freshwest (Reply #25)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:57 PM

45. MADem always does "good analysis". And yes, Bernie was seeking a challenger for Obama in '12.



Bernie Sanders: Obama Primary Challenge From A Progressive Would 'Enliven' 2012 Debate

The Huffington Post | By Nick Wing
Posted: 03/18/2011 5:35 pm EDT Updated: 05/25/2011 6:40 pm EDT

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/18/bernie-sanders-obama-primary_n_837819.html

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #22)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:45 PM

28. I know that you are a Hillary supporter so I'm so glad that you're in this thread

I've said before, I have a mostly favorable opinion of Hillary but that doesn't necessarily mean I think she needs to be president. But I would be happy with her (or Sanders for that matter) and don't consider her the root of all evil the way so many miserably clueless people here do.

Yeah, the only thing here that's worse than the cluelessness about the black community is the efforts to try to "compartmentalize" us from people who have probably never had a black person in their homes as friends, let alone spend enough time around enough black folks to actually have a reality based opinion about us. The whole "there is a class divide in the black community" bit was the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. Until I saw the butthurt from someone who was actually pissed and alerted on my post where I responded to someone who noted that Bernie's supporters are "overwhelmingly white." Damn, if the God's honest truth hurts people's feelings here then I totally get why there is so much dishonesty and stupidity flooding these boards.

I honestly don't think Bernie has a strong chance with black, Hispanic and other minority communities either. His participation in the March on Washington 50 years ago notwithstanding. And any person that wants to be the Dem party leader and doesn't speak to or connect with minorities doesn't have a chance in hell in becoming President. It's really that simple.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #28)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:23 PM

46. Unless Joe Biden announces, and given his standing in the polls, that seems unlikely, I am a......

Hillary supporter. The good news is that some of my fellow Obama supporters are backing other candidates, and I haven't lost one of shred of respect for them. We just differ about this. That's what grownups do.

It's obvious to me that both Bernie Sanders & Elizabeth Warren have been used as a bludgeon against other Democrats, and that helped me make up my mind. Barack Obama was a once in a lifetime candidate who struck a nerve in a war weary population, and I just don't see anyone, including Hillary, capturing the imagination of the world in quite the same way, but I especially can't see that with a seriously unpolished candidate like Bernie Sanders.

Barack Obama's 2008 campaign is still being emulated across the globe. We saw it in India. We saw it in the UK, and I'm sitting here listening to a victory rally in Spain, where they're screaming "YES WE CAN"! or "Sí, se puede".

Truth be told, Hispanics backed Hillary over Obama in the '08 primary, but they got over it, and voted for him overwhelmingly in the general election. I don't see that affection transferring to Bernie, especially if the mindset of his DU supporters is the attitude of his campaign. We don't need some smug, pie-in-the-sky white liberal with more degrees than common sense, calling us "uninformed" or "low information voters", or that they know what's best for us. I mean damn, why not just pat me on the head, and be done with it, one gesture is just as insulting as the other. Screw That!

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #46)

Mon May 25, 2015, 05:37 PM

49. He absolutely was a once in a lifetime candidate. In terms of my political life, I am absolutely

ecstatic, I am overjoyed that I was around during this time and had the opportunity to vote for him twice. And you are so right, his achievements are being heralded across the globe and his campaign and style of campaigning is being imitated EVERYWHERE. His popularity in America is rising once again but it is nowhere near how popular he is around the world. In Australia, people are still talking about the smack down he gave to the Prime Minister here on climate change.

He has not been perfect and I have disagreed with him on some issues but overall, I am beyond pleased with his presidency and I am by no means alone. When Bush was in office, these same folks calling Obama a "liar" a "con man" and a "Trojan horse" looked at his dismal approval ratings around the world as proof of what a fuckwit he was. These same folks look at the high support Obama gets worldwide and think... what exactly? God only knows what goes through these people's minds beyond "MUST. SCREAM. LOUDLY. Will look like I have actual power and influence that way!!1" And I could not agree with you more that Warren and Sanders have both been used by their "supporters" as a cudgel to knock this president over the head with. Their agenda at sowing division between a popular Dem president and his base could truly not be more obvious and I sincerely hope it fails openly, loudly and grandly and it very likely will.

You mark my words TD, I think before either you or myself are in the grave, there will be a Barack Obama Day in this country. And the haters and ignorami on BOTH sides of the political spectrum who have screamed and cursed his every move will be remembered with the same disgust that we reserve for the bigots who threw rocks at and cursed every move that MLK made. Maybe Obama's opponents are as vile and violent as King's were (and God please let it stay that way), but they are no less ignorant. I can't wait until the moment they understand they are on the wrong side of history and always have been.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #49)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:53 PM

61. + 1000

For ever damn word you have written here.

Thank you for having two feet firmly planted in reality. You express yourself with eloquence and passion.

I was not here for 2008. Yet I was following Obama closely. I watched and listened hard to all of it. When we neared election day, I knew without a shadow of a doubt that he would be our next President. You could almost feel the ground swell that was happening. I just knew there was something happening here.

My only wish is that I will live long enough to see a Barack Obama Day~ Doubtful yet, one can hope. As it is I am so extraordinarily grateful that I was here for his 2 terms.

Thanks~ Number23

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #61)

Mon May 25, 2015, 07:33 PM

64. Yep. And so far, I haven't felt that "ground swell" for either of the current candidates

though it is still very early and anything could happen!

DU seems to be of the mindset that if a handful of posters can blanket this board with pro-Bernie posts and scream at and shout down the Hillary supporters, that will mean... something. The almost manic level of Bernie "support" here seems to be in direct counter to his support in the real world.

You weren't here in 2008 but this feels incredibly similar to the manic level of support that DU tossed to Dennis Kucinich as this place hurled the dumbest, nastiest things imaginable at Obama and Hillary which of course, had no effect then and will probably have the same effect now.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #28)

Tue May 26, 2015, 02:26 AM

81. The black class divide is so offsneive. It's like counting on the latino vote like it's in the bag.

It's who they want to USE for their OWN 'best interests.' They assume the poor, minorities, etc. are just looking for a hero.

They should look in the mirror and at their 1% saints, like the G.A.S. trio. Really, they think we are that credulous as to idolize their gods, who never did SHIT For us? Who call us stupid and all kinds of names? REALLY?

Then the ones who say they won't vote, and it doesn't matter who is in office, because it's all the same? Must be nice living up on that fluffy white cloud!

Then the really disgusting ones who say they want revolution and blood in the streets. And then, only then, will the dumb oppressed look up to them and say, 'Yessir! You were right all along! We'll put our ass on the line, just teach us, Jedi Master!'

People that are really so careless with the lives of others that they could help, but see them as just collateral damage, cannot be trusted wth leadership and aren't worth following.

I gotta go to sleep, excuse the rant but I can't think of where else I feel safe to vent about this.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #22)

Tue May 26, 2015, 03:25 PM

90. Another problem with Hillary " Edward Snowden is a traitor " MSM

 

Misanthrope Sycophant Monster .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #90)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:12 PM

91. She's not alone. I don't give a f**k about Edward Snowden, and neither do most of us.....

Edward Snowden Unpopular at Home, A Hero Abroad, Poll Finds
The whistleblower is viewed negatively by 64 percent of Americans familiar with him, results say.

April 21, 2015

A poll of Americans and people living in nine other Western countries has found exiled whistleblower Edward Snowden is far more popular abroad than he is at home.

Snowden, a contractor who worked with the National Security Agency, ignited an intense, ongoing global policy debate about mass surveillance in June 2013 by exposing the collection of vast amounts of phone and Internet records and communications by the NSA and allied intelligence agencies.

For his efforts, about 64 percent of Americans familiar with Snowden hold a negative opinion of him, according to KRC Research poll results shared with U.S. News. Thirty-six percent hold a positive opinion, with just 8 percent holding a very positive opinion.

The survey was commissioned by the American Civil Liberties Union, which provides legal representation to Snowden, who received asylum in Russia after the U.S. canceled his passport.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds



I guess you & the Paulites make up that 8%?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #91)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:19 PM

92. MSM obviously means everything to you .

 

See Ya, got a big Hill to climb .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #92)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:28 PM

93. When you & Dean Chambers "Unskew that Poll" you come on back now, ya hear?





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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #93)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:44 PM

107. He's been removed



I've the progressive, warren, and Sanders groups in the trash bin because I don't want to deal with it - read it it, etc etc

If you don't believe in something or someone - avoid it or that person.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #107)

Wed May 27, 2015, 09:23 AM

130. Trashed them both as they were created. Problem is, they won't stay put in those groups.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:42 PM

27. I kinda felt the same way watching Clinton supporters call Warren hopefuls "rapists"

 

And insisting anyone holding out for a more favorable candidate were "right-wing ratfuckers"

Welcome to the primary season on DU, I guess.

So, has O'Malley declared yet?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #27)

Sun May 24, 2015, 06:48 PM

29. Did you make a wrong turn somewhere? The OP could not be more clear what the topic is about

If you aren't interested in discussing the topic at hand, then you can just scoot along and hopefully derail another thread somewhere else.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #29)

Sun May 24, 2015, 07:03 PM

32. Am I misunderstanding the topic?

 

My impression was "The behavior of some of this candidate's supporters has me concerned about our contenders" was the topic. Is that mistaken?

I'm simply noting that it's not limited to one candidate's supporters, and that unfortunately, maybe we can't expect anything but such teeth-gnashing and slap-fighting during the primaries. I've sen some threads from "Back i nthe day" in 2008, it doesn't look like it was hte most polite period of DU history.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #32)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:38 AM

37. You're in the African American group.

You might want to re-read the original post here.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #37)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:52 AM

39. I know where I am, and I can read just fine

 

But I do want to know whether i am misunderstanding the poster's topic, just in case.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #39)

Mon May 25, 2015, 04:05 AM

40. Yes, imo.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #40)

Mon May 25, 2015, 04:09 AM

41. Well, could you help me out then?

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #41)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:24 AM

43. It's about the lesser of two evils

We are going to be asked to pretend that none of what happened the past 7/8 years did not happen. It's about being told its strictly class. It's about reading that there are class divisions at play in the black community,

That's simply one of the silliest things I've ever read at DU.

Tarheel said it well in the thread that the OP references - we have class divisions right in our own families. Your cousin who is a janitor and your cousin who is an attorney - those guys have the exact same experience in America.

And neither one believed they were ever owed a pony.

For us - looking at this field - it is the lesser evil. Let's just sweep Tamir Rice's murder and the pics of Obama as a witch doctor under the rug and play a good clean game of class warfare.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #43)

Mon May 25, 2015, 02:49 PM

47. Here's the problem...

 

The only people I've seen making the "only about class" argument... are people who are trying to attack Sanders and his supporters. it's a fake meme. The way it works is, Sanders talks economy, and these guys go "oh! so you don't care about social issues!" and run with it. They bounce the meme around until "Sanders talked about the economy" becomes "Sanders doesn't care about social issues" until that becomes "Sanders hates black people and women!" Of course this tactic would flow the other way too - we'd be hearing that Sanders doesn't care about economic justice and hates the poor, if he drew a bead on social issues. Because it's not about informing, it's about attacking any opposition to another candidate.

has Sanders brushed off Tamir Rice's murder, as you claim? Or the "witch doctor" shit with Obama? he hasn't. And if some of his fans here have, then I can't speak for them, but I apologize anyway, 'cause that's some fucking shameful shit.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #47)

Mon May 25, 2015, 05:54 PM

52. +1000

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #52)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:26 PM

57. Read my response

You guys have a long hard row to hoe in the black community.

And you are going to have to shift your belief in what you perceive as the 'successful black American'.

It's Obama, Holder, Booker, Hobson, Harris-Blackwell, etc. etc.

It might pain someone to read - but it is what it is.

If I would had to pick between my nephews turning out like Holder or Cornel West - I'm picking Holder.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #57)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:30 PM

58. The President made a big mistake dimissing Cornel West both terms .

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #58)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:39 PM

59. Disagree

I cannot relate to West at all. I'm not the only black member at DU who thinks he's a used car salesman.

Not stepping and fetching for someone held up by the B.A.R. - was a good thing.

What is it with a certain segment of the white left and West> What exactly is it he has DONE - lately? For us? I mean he and Smiley talk a good game but they aren't exactly out in the community. I'm trying to think of some community action in the streets that West has engaged in? I live in Central NJ - you won't even find him at a Hunterdon County Anti Racism Coalition event. We've had 10 this year - no West.

You realize West lives in Princeton and doesn't 'rub shoulders' if you will -don't you?

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #58)

Mon May 25, 2015, 07:48 PM

66. Cornel West? He's a joke in this community now. He has alienated the people who got him to the....

national spotlight. I'm gonna go out on a limb and speculate that Cornel's popularity in the black community is even lower than that of Bernie Sanders. Cornel & Tavis "split their drawers" (as my Granny would say) in this community, and given Cornel's age, he may not make it back in time.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #47)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:23 PM

56. What if it does deeper than that?

I respect your choice to support Sanders -

Respect my choice to support O'Malley.

Hear us - don't try to make up (not you - but an avid Sanders supporter late last week) bullshit that the black community is divided by class. That shows me someone who has never been to a black family gathering.

If anyone wants to believe that - I've got an election they can lose!

In the meantime - it's not what you've done for me in the past - or even lately - but in the future.


I'm probably going to make you throw up in your mouth a little bit -but to me and many black folks - Corey Booker is the future of just about everything in America. We relate to him. Good, bad, indifferent - non black Progressives need to understand that. Sit down, shut up, and listen to us and what we know we need as a community. The days of talking down to us ended in January 2009.

Your job as a Sanders supporter is to say - How can Sanders grab some of that "I can relate to"?

That's your challenge - make him look young black and aggressive - frame him in that way and you can gain support from all financial levels in the black community.

Nonsense about class division to black folks among black folks makes us shut our ears and eyes. It's a lie (part of where this op came from). We know it, and one loses their credibility when they tell black people lies about black people.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #56)

Mon May 25, 2015, 09:29 PM

75. Good advice , thanks .

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #47)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:16 AM

87. That argument has been going on long before people were talking about Sanders

and like most of what they say here, has very little to do with him and everything to do with them.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:41 PM

205. I see ...

 

wonder if they only like poor black people? Like - do they hate those of us that aren't on snap and tanf? Is there some hidden resentment there?


You see/hear what you want to hear rather than what is said. There was this classic (before it was self-deleted), "If you do see income equality as THE issue, then, YOU are the issue." And, that was not the rare case.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #205)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:56 PM

206. What's the quote from?

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #206)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:59 PM

207. One of the pillars of DU ...

 

He will now deny it ... and I can't bring it up being he self-deleted.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 9, 2015, 09:55 AM

209. The weird thing is o'malley and Clinton both have pretty bad form on race

Clintons history of race baiting and dog whistling is pretty well attested, but o'malley probably has it worse. He introduced zero tolerance policing to Baltimore which saw arrests of black people skyrocket, and laid the foundations for much of the trouble that persists today. Apparently the folks back home haven't forgotten it, either:-

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/04/omalleys-baltimore-protest-visit-backfires.html

Sanders, for all his faults, at least doesn't have an actively racist history like Clinton and OMalley both have, yet sanders is getting flak for simply being white, although Clinton and omalley are every bit as white as he is.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #43)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 05:47 AM

194. This right here:

Let's just sweep Tamir Rice's murder and the pics of Obama as a witch doctor under the rug and play a good clean game of class warfare.

I ain't falling for that game. No matter how many times they tell me I must. That scorpion will crawl back out of the rug to bite us all unril it's dealt with.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Sun May 24, 2015, 07:02 PM

31. Rec'd because this is the main reason why HRC will be the nominee, imo

She will have strong institutional support from blacks in the party and it will carry over to votes. And the 2008 contest has a lot to do with it.

Clinton/Obama was pretty gut wrenching for many black Democrats in power. Look at someone like Eddie Bernice Johnson who worked with Hillary on the '72 McGovern campaign, had a very strong relationship with her and still endorsed Obama, which I'm sure wasn't easy. She is already on board with Hillary 2016.

I'm sure most of Obama's black support in the party will make the same transition without much hesitation, even with the dog whistling that occurred as Obama gained momentum post-Iowa. Hillary is the frontrunner for a lot of valid reasons, paid her dues with a loss and was loyal to Obama for the last eight years, starting with the 2008 convention.

Now along comes Bernie, who has functioned as a political independent all his life, looking to chip away at Hillary's black support in the context of a Democratic Party nomination process. I really don't see why or how it would happen.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #31)

Sun May 24, 2015, 07:17 PM

33. Clinton's support from black people was so strong that there are black folks to this DAY that have

still not forgiven black people for shifting over to Obama, nor Obama for welcoming them with open arms. Cornel and Tavis immediately come to mind.

The strong support Clinton had from the black community -- admittedly combined with the strong impression that white people in America were still much too racist to vote for a black man named Obama -- kept her in the lead, even after Obama started to come into his own.

But of course, after Obama won Iowa black folks realized he may actually have a chance and flocked to him in droves. But that does not in any way mean that Hillary's support disappeared, though it may have dissipated due to the questionable and even clueless comments she and Bill made during the campaign that you mentioned. I think that residual and obviously still strong black support is what we're seeing now.

Now along comes Bernie, who has functioned as a political independent all his life, looking to chip away at Hillary's black support in the context of the Democratic Party nomination process. I really don't see why or how it would happen.

To be honest, I don't either. Not yet. But I'm not sure how "loyal" Clinton is being. Her silence on the TPP has been universally regarded as pretty strange and her tenure as SoS was not without its missteps.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:43 AM

38. I agree with you that all the democratic party candidates need to up their games

with minorities. Being the optimist that I am, I think and hope that they will. I'm very interested in what happens with the Obama coalition. I'm also feeling like I'm going to wait and see who President Obama endorses. I respect him that much. It's a little late here and I'm getting tired. But I just want to say that I love your posts. Love this thread too.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #38)

Mon May 25, 2015, 05:40 PM

50. "I'm very interested in what happens with the Obama coalition."

Me too, my friend!

Especially because we aren't going anywhere and no Dem can win without us. I am so proud to have voted for that man twice.

But I just want to say that I love your posts.

The feeling is more than mutual.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #50)

Tue May 26, 2015, 12:29 AM

80. And we are part of that coalition.

Most definitely agree, no democratic contender can win without us. It's a good feeling, like when you go to a fun party that's winding down and realize there's going to be more of the same parties. We're with each other through thick and thin. I'm proud of being part of this Obama coalition. We've had his back.

I don't know where some of the Sanders supporters get off thinking they can trash President Obama for years and then magically build a majority coalition in our party by browbeating us. And then tell us we are delusional. It's actually hysterically funny to me!

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 05:52 PM

51. Minorities are on the bottom of the 99%, if that isn't a reason, we're sold

 

and who do you think MOST of the country thinks would sell us first .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #51)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:46 PM

60. I'm not - and I'm in the 99%



1Strongblackman isn't.
Number23 isn't.

Quite a few others.

Now will any of us be pulled over for DWB? Sure. It's the nature of America. That is what we are.

But that isn't a class thing.

That's not a question - that's a strong statement.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #60)

Mon May 25, 2015, 07:10 PM

62. You are an exception to the statistics, no ?

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #62)

Mon May 25, 2015, 07:41 PM

65. I have no idea what your posts are saying in this thread

That because we are educated and not wearing sack cloth and ashes we don't "understand" our own community?

Or are you saying that you expect every black person on DU to be lower middle class? I don't understand your posts at all.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #65)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:02 PM

67. +1000

Except - I think we are all supposed to be living in abject poverty. You set the bar waaaay too high!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #67)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:11 PM

68. I guess that person somehow felt that I didn't have enough examples of ignorant, offensive, clueless

behavior from Sanders supporters and wanted to make sure I had more to add to the list.

If that and the obvious attempt to steer the conversation away from the OP doesn't perfectly encapsulate what I'm talking about then I don't know what will.

MADem could not have nailed much of this behavior harder than he did upthread: "I gotta say, some of the people who are touting themselves as enthusiastic Sanders supporters are coming off like assholes. Total, complete, nasty-ass ASSHOLES. Racialicious, rude, prevaricating, bullshitting assholes.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #68)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:18 PM

69. Your coming with facts ? or antics ? it's not our fault, don't kill the meassengers .

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #69)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:32 PM

70. If you have a "message" would you be kind enough to actually say it?

These cryptic responses from you don't seem to be eliciting the response you want, unless you were going for confusion, dismissal and puzzled laughter.

If you have something to say, why don't you come right out and say it? You guys have already made quite the impression on this board. May as well put all of your cards on the table.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #70)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:46 PM

71. Sure, Hillary Clinton represents to me and others the NWO

 

Oligarchy, and this includes educated , affluent good spellers, no matter what their race, religion, or life style .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #71)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:55 PM

73. And all I have to say is that I sleep pretty well at night knowing that you and the "others" you

speak of have almost completely removed yourselves from ever having even a semblance of power and authority over my life and the lives of those that I care about.

Keep rambling about oligarchs and the NWO. Keep screaming that educated black people and "good spellers" are your enemy. You'll make sure you'll stay politically impotent for DECADES which is probably what you want anyway. Allows you to continue hollering that you are being victimized by the Powers that Be instead of a acknowledging that you may be a group of no plan or message having, alienating individuals that no one wants to be affiliated with and especially not those Educated Negroes that terrify you guys so much.

You should take this stupid little show on the road. Will help Bernie Sanders alot with his efforts to make inroads into minority communities.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #73)

Mon May 25, 2015, 09:12 PM

74. Where did I say " Educated Black People " your delusional, most of You

 

Clinton supporters are these days, don't make it racial, please .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #74)

Mon May 25, 2015, 09:57 PM

77. You made it racial the second you came in here with your idiocy about "minorities"

Go away. And please don't come back into this forum.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #77)

Tue May 26, 2015, 05:39 AM

83. Done

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #74)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:42 PM

102. You are in the African American group

and you say don't make it racial? What kind of nonsense is that?

You just derided educated people who are "good spellers" as the same as oligarchs in a post above. Clearly you have a problem with education. If you read the OP, you would see Number23 is not in fact a Clinton supporter but rather undecided.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #73)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:32 PM

161. To be fair ...

 

he/she is not saying that educated black people and "good spellers" are his/her enemy ... we're just too damn stupid to be on his/her team.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #161)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:47 PM

164. No, when someone starts spouting about oligarchs and the New World Order, I'm pretty sure

they're listing their enemies.

The fact that educated folks of all colors also go into the Enemies List is very telling. Like I said, the line between so many of these folks and the Tea Party shrinks more by the day.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #73)

Thu May 28, 2015, 09:25 PM

166. This is easily

One of the greatest posts I've ever read on DU.
The OP ain't too shabby either.
Simply awesome.
I'm glad I found this thread from a link in GD.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #166)

Thu May 28, 2015, 09:29 PM

167. Nice to see you in here, zap!



What thread was this thread linked from?

And you can see this person I'm responding to's "contribution" to this thread. Which makes his braying all throughout GD that he was blocked from this group because of his "Bernie Sanders support" the blatant BS that it so obviously is.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #167)

Thu May 28, 2015, 09:34 PM

168. The link is here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026739071#post26

From a BB thread.

This entire thread nails it IMO!

I look forward to the primaries being over and these self-proclaimed "progressives" have to hold their tongue.
Cuz you know they won't leave DU.
Don't forget...posting privileges over principles!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #168)

Thu May 28, 2015, 09:48 PM

169. I wonder how they'll react when it is discovered people are claiming he is a dual citizen of Israel.

Someone posted a link to a site which claims Sanders is a dual citizen to Israel. It's not true, but that rarely matters to those who post that type of BS. I am wondering what the fallout might be when it is discovered it is being promoted here, at DU.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #169)

Thu May 28, 2015, 09:53 PM

170. So what?

Hillary eats babies and sells kittens for heroin!

Seriously though, what rock did that poster climb out from under?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #169)

Thu May 28, 2015, 11:11 PM

171. All concerns about any positions on which Sanders might not conform to the standard approved view

have been abandoned. We have been told, for example, that gun control just isn't important. The only thing that matters now is holding a great man above the rest of humanity. They have decided he is the one. Any concerns about his positions on issues or questions about his plans are treated as acts of war.

The standard procedure is to ignore any issues that are not in keeping with the group think and to wait until after the election to turn on him. Case in point: Barack Obama.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #171)

Fri May 29, 2015, 01:59 AM

174. The point is anti-Semitism is getting a pass.

It is another example of a minority group getting kicked in the teeth. Unlike the "Obama is a Muslim" lie, Sanders is a Jew. I find it incredible that people really don't think this is an issue which will be pertinent, including at this site. What makes this even more amazing is those posting this type of trash are usually Sanders supporters.

I have been repulsed by many of the recent posts in GD, it is one reason I have retreated to the AA group and few other smaller groups. It just isn't worth the headache. It literally raised my blood pressure!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #174)

Fri May 29, 2015, 02:09 AM

175. I haven't seen what you describe

Are you saying people who are Sanders supporters are making anti-semitic comments about him?

I must have misunderstood your previous post.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #175)

Fri May 29, 2015, 02:17 AM

176. Some have in the past.

But there is a post here (at DU, not in AA) listing "dual citizens of Israel", Sanders is on the list. So is Al Franken. To me, I am wondering how some are going to react to things like this, or even if it will be addressed. Of course, I made the big mistake of exploring the site, it is also a Holocaust denial site!

I am wondering how much they will let "slide". I have seen, repeatedly, to the point of being embarrassed for being white, at the amount of racism that was allowed to slide in relation to Obama, Holder, and a few others. I have already seen the sexist attacks on Clinton, so I am just wondering what will happen...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #168)

Thu May 28, 2015, 11:20 PM

173. The post worked

The guy had been following me around DU demanding I defend Clinton on this or that. It didn't matter how many times I told him I was undecided. He keep at me several times over the last couple of days. That post got me a reprieve, probably only temporary, but still much appreciated.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #67)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:39 PM

111. Twenty seven percent of African Americans live below the poverty line as do ...

Twenty seven percent of African Americans live below the poverty line as do twenty seven percent of Latinos:


Among racial and ethnic groups, African Americans had the highest poverty rate, 27.4 percent, followed by Hispanics at 26.6 percent


We have work to do but I don't know where folks get the idea that all or most people of color live in poverty comes from.

Robert Kennedy said the best social program is a job and hope...That's what all of us want.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #111)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:39 PM

162. Yes you do ...

 

you know where that idea comes from ... it's the liberal response to "welfare queen" narrative ... funny how the mentality is the same, only different ... I think Malcolm had something to say about that back in the day.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #162)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:56 PM

165. It was odd when that poster suggested all people of color are mired in poverty.

But that's what happens when you can't get past seeing the world exclusively through a 1%/99% prism.

It reminds of this guy I knew as a young man who would trace every problem back to the communists. We used to laugh at him behind his back.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #67)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:27 PM

160. Isn't that what the Black (female) Duer said her her ...

 

farewell DU post ... white liberals love their negroes ... so long as we are victims or servants.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #65)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:51 PM

72. Most people on DU have more education and money than me, And I

 

wouldn't presume because a person is a success they wouldn't " Understand " , Thanks .

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Response to Number23 (Reply #65)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:43 AM

84. You don't want to " exceptionalist " and that's why you can't .

 

See Ya .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #84)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:07 AM

86. Thanks - this will prevent us from having to block you from the group

You can go in and trash the entire group from the Profile page - I think.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #86)

Tue May 26, 2015, 09:58 PM

108. It appears that he would much rather race to GD and whine that he's been persecuted for his

Bernie Sanders support and "putting people on ignore" (that miracle must have come after he responded to me five (correction SEVEN) times in this thread) instead of his trolling of this forum, sounding as fearful and full of dislike at educated people as anyone in the Tea Party, and refusing to leave after being asked -- TWICE -- to do so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026731860



I will say it again. Some of these folks around here simply CANNOT be for real. They simply cannot be.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #108)

Wed May 27, 2015, 12:46 AM

115. Fee-fees! Won't SOMEBODY think of the fee-fees!?!

"Some of these folks around here simply CANNOT be for real. They simply cannot be."

Oh, but they are! While it is true there are conservative plants who play progressives, they are far and few between and usually expose themselves within a few hundred posts. The real issue is many can't seem to figure out how to disagree with someone without telling them what they think or feel. It is even more noticeable when it is to one of us because we are accustomed to being "told" how to feel about something or when we express an opinion how it is wrong because they (almost always a majority holder) know better than us.

It is the turning of the tables, where the aggressor becomes the victim, at least in their mind. Things will only get worse from here. I have seen it many times at this site. Take notice, too, of threads which are being hidden and those which are similar yet are not. It is pretty clear there are some, whether a majority or simply a very vocal minority, are being very clear; some of us need to know our place, and if we don't we shall be reminded of it! Thankfully, we have allies, otherwise our voices might be limited to a few loudmouthed individuals. We have to willing to stand up against those who may be like us in some respects (white, male, straight, Christian, able-bodied, with money (at least comfortable) when they disrespect those who are like us (AA, Latino, female, GLBT, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, differently abled (physically/mentally), and the poor).

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #115)

Wed May 27, 2015, 03:03 AM

123. There are people in GD screaming at Hillary supporters for saying things like "stop acting as though

his announcement to 1000 people in Burlington, VT is the same as Obama rallies with tens of thousands of people." I mean, that's it! That was pretty much the totality of a post that I saw from someone and the post was HIDDEN!!!!

Where was the personal attack?? Where was the anti-Democratic stances?? I have seen people call posters here "turds" and "trolls" and call the Dem president of the United States a piece of shit and those posts were not hidden. Now I'm seeing threads where people are alluding that black and female posters are "infiltrating" this place by pretending to be minorities. What the hell is going on around this place right now???

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Response to Number23 (Reply #123)

Wed May 27, 2015, 04:47 AM

126. Oh dear lord

Ignore that - they are just trying to get our personal info to use it against us.

In a sick plot twist - if I say I have a homeland security function at the evil empire telecom - then they should be able to call up their buddies Snowden and Greenwald and get my name. It's that simple - if those two have what they have - they have my name. There aren't thousands of people with that job in telecom.

We are all on the bi monthly calls for conflict minerals with each other. It's a small group - and we are easily identifiable.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #115)

Wed May 27, 2015, 04:43 AM

125. Yes indeed - they are for real

Tons of truth here bta.

I went and read the link -

He wasn't kicked out for supporting Sanders - he was kicked out for a lack of respect. If you never have posted in this group - and you just come back here to tell us how we are wrong and you have our best interests at heart . . .

It indicates to me at least that one doesn't have respect for adults who have done a little living and a little observing and might know a little more about their lives than you do.

A total lack of respect.

I think that is the only person on a time out right now from this group. We don't block people for opinions - we tend to block them for behavior.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #125)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:36 PM

133. Found this cartoon...sums it up pretty well, especially given some recent threads...

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #133)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:47 PM

134. Ha ha!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #134)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:27 PM

142. Oh girl, do we need to have a Troy Off up in here??!



LOVE that crazy man!!! LOVE him!! Although if he does actually hook up with Britta, that may all change very, VERY quickly.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #108)

Wed May 27, 2015, 04:30 AM

124. Why didn't he do that

In the Sanders group?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #108)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:51 PM

135. He was the self deleter from last Summer/Early Fall

I had to go look - he's stayed off the radar by just 'deleting his posts'.

I don't think he can just go through and delete now that he's blocked.

But it's an interesting search if you go back to July 1 2014 through December 31st 2014 and look at the AA Group posts by him.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #135)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:36 PM

143. I've never noticed his posts or his name at all until now. And yeah, I wonder if he can delete now

that he's been blocked from the group.

He's now one of, what 3-4, people in this entire web site blocked from the African American group. What a fine representative he makes for Bernie Sanders.

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #84)

Tue May 26, 2015, 05:28 PM

96. Don't come back here again, please. We don't need your macho "done" and "see ya" crap

when asked to not come back.

Just don't come back.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 03:51 AM

82. This is a brilliant op and thread...

It's quite late at night here for me to be trying to formulate my thoughts, but I'm glad I took the time to read it all. I'd say this Group "gives me hope for DU," but that's not quite true any more as I have just about given up hope for DU as such. I guess what it gives me hope for is you, and certain Groups, here.

'Night.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #82)

Tue May 26, 2015, 05:54 PM

99. Thanks alot, Hekate.

I'd say this Group "gives me hope for DU," but that's not quite true any more as I have just about given up hope for DU as such.

Such a sweet soul you have. Ever the optimist. I gave up on DU a loooooong time ago and have no idea what's keeping me here. It must be like Tarheel_Dem said upthread, most black posters have long since left and the ones that remain are just too stubborn to leave.

If you get a chance, I highly suggest you read the post from MADem upthread where he discusses the criticism that Sanders is getting from the socialists for running as a Democrat. I swear, some people are not happy unless they are failing as loudly and as openly as possible.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #99)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 09:15 PM

200. I Echo You.

I came back to DU this spring for personal amusement. I don't think I've been here in about 4 years. I am here because it's addictive to see how white liberals think. Sometimes I agree with them... and sometimes I definitely do not. In my brief (3 months) time here, I have tried to start racially driven threads and seen how fast they fall to the bottom. And I have also seen how quickly the issue of blackness gets dismissed, with suggestions that if we have economic justice, the problem of blackness goes away. Now that's some serious bullshit and MOST black people know it. Tim Scott and Clarence Thomas... well, what can you do.

I find myself happiest here in this forum. Where people care about the things I care about. I am too stubborn to leave.

BTW: We have some class issues in our community. But I think white people misunderstand them. I keep typing it and I'll get it right at some point. We have some people with a "poverty" mentality. We have some people who live in poverty but have not lost their self-respect. We have people who have escaped poverty, don't look back, and dismiss anyone who can't get off the treadmill. We have people who have escaped but do what they can to give back. We have people who have never been poor, but give back anyway, even if misguided. Then we have people who have never been poor who are so unable to relate that giving back doesn't occur to them.

The one thing we all have in common - DWB. And DWB is so powerful that when two black people have nothing else in common, they both know it could happen at any time, and have developed some mechanism for coping with it. Anger, denial, resignation, something. Knowing that they can't make it go away.

White people know nothing about DWB, they don't know the sinking feeling when you hear the siren, the uncertainty of what will happen, the realization that you can do your best to keep it a good situation, but it could still go bad.

I know little about it because I'm very light skinned, but I know enough.


Oh F*** I'm rambling.

I'm just happy to read others echo the reality of DU. There are racist white liberals here that don't know that they are racist. There are ignorant white liberals here that don't know that they are ignorant. There are selfish white liberals here that will never do anything about racial issues because it doesn't affect them. When it comes to white liberal issues, we relate, and some of those issues are my issues. But when it comes to black people's issues, it gets damned lonely.

Rant off.

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Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #200)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 09:27 PM

201. Absolutely yes. I agree with everything that you've written

And like you, the AA groups is the only forum that keeps me sane. Bumping heads against the clueless every day is TIRING as hell and especially, like you said, the ones that DON'T know that they're fucking clueless.

I'm just happy to read others echo the reality of DU. There are racist white liberals here that don't know that they are racist. There are ignorant white liberals here that don't know that they are ignorant. There are selfish white liberals here that will never do anything about racial issues because it doesn't affect them. When it comes to white liberal issues, we relate, and some of those issues are my issues. But when it comes to black people's issues, it gets damned lonely.

Yes. So please come hang out with us here. This is the sanest, smartest group on DU. And we can all be lonely together.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 01:43 PM

88. I think Hillary and her supporters realize that they need black support for her to have a chance

 

They seem to be doing their best not to alienate blacks this time around.

I can't say the same for many of Bernie's supporters. They are trying to boost Bernie by attacking Obama and talking down to black voters, the most loyal and important Democratic voters.

That's a sure fire way to get your butt kicked in the primaries.

So that begs the question, are these people really Bernie supporters?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #88)

Tue May 26, 2015, 03:19 PM

89. Some are Anti-Hillary, I've criticized the President on issues, I don't

 

see him as an African American, I see him as the man I elected twice and it was a joy the first time, not so the second time and those misgivings are attached to Hillary because unlike being influential in the Clinton administration , She is a part of this one .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #89)

Tue May 26, 2015, 05:50 PM

98. You were asked to not come back to this forum. You replied "done" and "see ya" and yet, are still

posting.

So I am now blocking you from this group.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #88)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:00 PM

100. "So that begs the question, are these people really Bernie supporters?"

I've long since suspected the answer to that was a big, fat no.

I saw an OP that said "Bernie is different from Obama. He's the real deal." The man whose major achievement is getting a post office renamed is the Real Deal compared to Obama, the most electrifying and transformative president of the last 30 years??

And then I see this stuff and my response to it and I realize that I am being totally manipulated. Totally played. Bernie is not a bad person and he is certainly not the bad guy here. The folks who do this kind of Bernie vs. Clinton, Bernie vs. Obama bullshit are not really his supporters and I'm willing to bet are not even Democrats. This is needless shit stirring, division and trolling. Nothing more.

And there was a lot of that going on in your OP. The "Sanders cares more about civil liberties than Obama and Clinton" post convinced me more than anything that we are having our chains yanked by amateurs and that we should not give any of them the time of day.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #100)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:36 PM

106. I'm afraid most of them are

a handful aren't, but the majority are true believers. I realize it seems improbable because they do more to drive supporters away than recruit them. My sense is that they care less about the election than in proclaiming themselves superior.

Note, the real deal isn't measured by accomplishments. They aren't looking for that. They are electing an entertainer in chief who will channel their anger for them. They refuse to even consider how he will implement any programs. They simply do not care about that. It's tribal. They want one of their own as president, and if he never does anything other than get post offices named, they prefer that to someone they dislike, not coincidentally a woman, who would get some of what they want accomplished but not validate their emotions.

They prefer a government that doesn't function to a president who will compromise to get legislation passed. In that way, they are very much like the Tea Party, and some hate government just as much as the Tea Baggers do.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #106)

Tue May 26, 2015, 10:07 PM

109. "They refuse to even consider how he will implement any programs." For me, that's got to be the

weirdest thing about all of this.

Two things seem to anger these people like nothing. 1) Noting Hillary's support from Democrats and members of the Democratic base and 2) asking Sanders supporters how he will implement his policies. I have seen people torn limb from limb for simply asking "how do you guys expect him to get his policies through this Congress?"

It's like they think if he scrunches his face up hard enough and through sheer force of will, he'll get his policies through with no help from Congress. It makes no sense at all.

The Tea Party comparisons enrage this group too but I think it's because they see the numerous similarities as well as the rest of us. I don't know if you've seen MADem's posts up thread but you should read them. You should see some of the socialist criticism of Sanders. That he's a warmonger, a Zionist with a dash of corporatist thrown in for flavor. It is the same side of the ill-informed, unhinged, maniacal coin that Obama supporters have been drenched in for years. It is nothing short of astonishing.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #106)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:45 PM

112. I'll edit this. But the sentiment sure as shit still stands

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #106)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:15 AM

129. Measured by accomplishments

You nailed my frustration.

How and by what process will the next Democratic President get things done?

Heaven forbid we ask that question.

I want reform in the financial services industry just as much as anyone else. But demolishing the banking system is not the way to accomplish that.

All we need is a few laws to make the leadership at banks/hedge funds comply to - and trials/convictions when they don't - and that will change how they do business. Destroying banks and seizing their depositors assets is dare I say - stupid?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #116)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:41 AM

121. Such innocous, positive OPs, nothing negative about any other candidate. Yet, can't be respected.

I mean, these were just 'news' reports, for crying out loud.


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Response to freshwest (Reply #121)

Wed May 27, 2015, 11:24 AM

132. That is their modus operandi; attack, attack, attack!!!

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #116)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:57 AM

122. Well, that was unfortunate. Though the Yanni suggestion was nothing short of inspired

Not that I think anything on this earth could calm that one down.

I don't need or even want to read the others. And I knew that the "but he's rich!" line would be tossed around by people who then want to turn around accuse OTHER people of being simpletons ie they're only supporting so and so because they know her name or they're not supporting Bernie because they DON'T know who he is.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 03:16 PM

136. Skinner: "I was so naive...I had no clue so many Democrats hated Democrats"

from ATA:

(Democratic Underground) was intended to imply an aggressive anti-Republican orientation.

We were the "Underground" fighting against the Republicans, who were in power at the time.

Ironically, it seems that many people took the name to mean "Underground fighting against Democrats." I was so naive. Back when I started this site I had no clue so many Democrats hated Democrats.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/12597937#post1

I thought this had a small bit of relevance to your OP.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #136)

Wed May 27, 2015, 03:40 PM

137. I saw that too!

Things that make you go "hmmm..."

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #137)

Wed May 27, 2015, 03:44 PM

138. yes indeed nt

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #136)

Wed May 27, 2015, 04:20 PM

139. Love that answer!

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #136)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:54 PM

146. Another (seperate but awesome) contribution to this thread. Thanks, steve!

First we got MADem upthread talking about how the Socialists hurl the same BS at Sanders that the "left" has been hurling at Obama for the last 7 years. That just about blew my mind.

But I'm not at all surprised by Skinner's response. He has called the morons blanketing this board out before, first with his "typo" calling them "prigressives" a few years back and he's gotten into it a few times with some of the loudest, wrongest people here. Probably why the "Third Way!!1 Thrid Way1one!" insult has been hurled at him more than a few times.

Maybe he'll start to take a more active approach to these boards again. When I first started lurking, I guess around 2006, Skinner and EarlG were on DU ALOT. Maybe not every day, but often. Now, it's like the stench from this board is so foul it's even keeping the people who created it away. We're doing good if we see anything from him on the boards once a month and EarlG is just about completely gone except for his Pic of the Day.

So it tickles me that the people responsible for making DU suck so horrendously, that have driven down the numbers of people that post here in droves -- especially poc, gays and the members of the actual Dem base -- and thus mortally wounded the site's importance and meaningfulness, are the ones leaping like frogs in GD with how "important" and "relevant" DU is now. Yeah, it's so "relevant" that the Alexa ratings are in the toilet, and the people that made the site won't step foot in the joint and are watching as its entire purpose is shit on and thrown off a cliff.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:03 PM

140. Okay ... Before I read the comments below ...

 

It should be noted that more than a few on DU believe the African-American vote is not needed ... or at least, won't be because of the 10s of 1,000,000s of voters that will suddenly appear ... once they hear Bernie's message! (I'm so glad Bernie hasn't said that ... though he can real damned close with his "I don't have to address African-American issues because if you are working class, then I'm your man" interview).

Which, BTW, is a lot like Webb's (and a couple DUers that support Webb) we can ignore the Black vote, if we can just win back the working class white vote ... by stop paying attention to the Black vote.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #140)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:44 PM

144. How about people of color who still experience prejudice and discrimination...

How about people of color who still experience prejudice and discrimination irrespective of their socioeconomic status?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #144)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:25 PM

150. Not needed! Per a DUer. n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #150)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:27 PM

151. Such a position seems unwise./NT

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #151)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:47 PM

154. Many, many of the folks we are referencing ...

 

have made unwise statements.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #154)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:52 PM

155. John 8:32

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #155)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:00 PM

157. Some random internet guy ...

 

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. But first, it'll piss you off!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #140)

Wed May 27, 2015, 05:58 PM

147. Wait...what???

"I don't have to address African-American issues because if you are working class, then I'm your man" interview

Oh Lord, please tell me Sanders didn't say that.

Although, he is a white guy in his 70s and that's probably not an unusual sentiment among people of that age. Even the ones most possessing "nobless oblige" probably still believe that if we just treat everybody the same (read: address white people's problems) than everyone else's will work out too. Because, trickle down. Or something.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #147)

Wed May 27, 2015, 06:43 PM

153. I'll try and find the interview ...

 

I found it on the google while trying to research how Bernie is polling among Black folks (I find it interesting that I could find zero/nothing/nada, when the same polling data that queries Candidate preference data for both HRC and Bernie, also asks the race of the queried ... but I digress)

While I search, I'll leave you with this: http://www.vox.com/2015/5/27/8671135/bernie-sanders-race

and this:

Accordingly, he (Sanders) believes that the only way to break the GOP's power is to turn many of their own core voters — white voters, rural voters, and seniors — against them, and against the power of the wealthy.

(and this ...)

A campaign focused on issues of inequality and the power of the wealthy, he argued, can convince people Democrats will fight for them again. "You win because you are there fighting for working families all across the board, for seniors, for the children," he says. "That's how you win."

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/14/6839305/bernie-sanders-running-for-president-2016


I'll be back when I find the exact quote I was referencing.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #153)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:44 PM

163. The thing is, that's a lovely sentiment. It really is

A campaign focused on issues of inequality and the power of the wealthy, he argued, can convince people Democrats will fight for them again.

If we can get all of the downtrodden, stepped on wretches to be on the same side, then we'll be able to unite in ways that will have the powerful and rich quivering in fear. That's a great and grand way to look at things.

Unfortunately, it has very little bearing in reality, particularly in non-homogenous cultures where the wants and needs of one particular culture have been placed above all others and they have been brought up to believe in EVERY SINGLE MEASURABLE WAY that they are superior to everyone else.

This is why there are social and economic movements in this country and there are minority sub-groups in just about every one of them. The feminist movement. The gay rights movement. Hell, I've learned recently that the disability movement even has black and other minority subgroups. And this is not done as a way to "divide," this is a way for minorities and poc to try to ensure that our issues will even be ACKNOWLEDGED let alone addressed by the mainstream cultures which have traditionally not only NOT acknowledged or addressed our issues, but in some cases have been openly hostile to them.

I think it's kwassa that has posted some really amazing information on the things that black folks within the labor movement had to go through to even have their issues acknowledged. And these folks hollering about the New Deal forget that this was yet another in a long line of initiatives to address the poor and downtrodden that didn't even consider the unique circumstances of people of color.

So, if the efforts to address our stuff is considered "divisive" because we have all seen first, second, third and 52nd hand how our issues get ignored, minimized, dismissed or "absorbed" into other issues (where they are then subsequently ignored) then I'm okay with being divisive. Hopefully Sanders realizes this kind of talk only appeals to a very narrow type of supporter and is not a particularly effective strategy for winning over the Obama Coalition.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2015, 04:33 PM

177. I'm so glad I followed a link here.

This thread has been the best political commentary I've seen at this site so far.



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Response to Lilith Rising (Reply #177)

Fri May 29, 2015, 07:26 PM

178. Thanks very much!

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2015, 08:53 PM

179. very thoughtful thread

I love this group.
I remember some odd moments in 08 when during the primary fight in my state the conventional pundits assumed Obama would get the AA vote automatically. Most of my friends were initially Hillary supporters. I live in Virginia so the field had been whittled away. Obama had to change minds. Some folks stuck with Hill, others switched to Obama but both candidates had to appeal to the community to earn the vote.
My family was split. We actually managed to still love each other. I have some family and friends that are excited about Bernie but most people I know are waiting to see how this pans out. We don't want to be told we're too stupid to figure out who we support.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #179)

Sat May 30, 2015, 02:41 AM

180. "We don't want to be told we're too stupid to figure out who we support."

I absolutely could not agree more.

Obama/Hillary in 2008 was a thing to behold, wasn't it? They both had such STRONG support in the black community but that was only after most black people came to believe that white people weren't too racist to vote for Obama. But just because a lot of black folks switched over to Obama doesn't mean that they stopped supporting Hillary.

She still has TREMENDOUS support, even after some of the really unhinged things she and Bill said in the primary on racial issues. But anyone who believes that Bill and Hillary are the only white Democrats who've said and done unsavory things re: black people is naïve. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any white politician who don't have many a well documented gaffe (or 50) about people of color and other minorities.

We would love to see more of you in this group.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #180)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 03:20 PM

190. I totally get what you mean here Number23. Even Joe Biden,

 

as much as I love and respect him, has said some untoward things. And some other ranking Democrats who've made stupid, idiotic, ridiculous statements about black people and other communities of color.

Here's the difference:

Bill Clinton hails from the Deep American South. (I'm also a proud daughter of the Deep South.) We know very well the Republican playbook--how they play racial politics. The Clinton Machine knew damn well what they were doing to divide the party. It is not lost on me that folks on that team like Carville are also southerner and a strategist, so he knows better.

When HRC made those untoward comments about MLK, Jr. vs. LBJ, that struck many black folk wrong. But when she continued to make these statements (e.g., "hard working white people," and references to Bobby Kennedy's assassination after knowing the death threats Obama faced) and her husband added to the hate; their surrogates like Ferraro, Carville, Rendell, et al. ran to Faux News to play the race card. These events are a bit different from a "slip of the tongue" gaffe here or there, or a Harry Reid-type, brain-fart moment.

The Clintons KNEW what they were doing. They were deliberately doing it, and that's what I find so concerning. I'm baffled by how many of us just dismiss this as if the Clintons didn't know or didn't mean any harm. Of course they meant harm!!

I know we don't agree on this issue and I'm very passionate about it; I can't just dismiss this behavior, on top of the fact that they are close to the McCains and the Bushes--and are not afraid to adopt very Republican, rightwing ideologies or agree to war.

This is just something I cannot reconcile within. I think we as black folk are far too accommodating and forgiving. That has allowed the Democratic Party to take advantage of us, to misuse us especially when they need votes, to talk down to us, and to dismiss all of our concerns. We see it right here on DU. If the folk on DU are bad, imagine what the attitude is of the average, rank-in-file Democrat who isn't supposedly as politically astute as we are.

I still believe that the Clintons have much to atone for. I really do. And I do not believe that HRC has this in the bag. Not by a long shot. Democrats are making a huge mistake if they think she's can just waltz in the White House. I can't be any more serious than I am. However, I do understand your point and I take it to heart.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #190)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 05:23 PM

192. Black folks are far too accommodating. But this is what happens when we know the deck is stacked

against us all damn day, every damn day of every fucking year. If we write off every single white politician -- even Democratic ones -- that have said and done some crooked shit towards us, who would we have to represent us in office? Hell, even some black politicians have done crooked shit towards us too.

I don't want to be like these white libertarians. These people scare the shit out of me they are so crazy and stupid. Look upthread at the post from MADem about how the socialists have been screaming at Bernie Sanders and calling him a war mongering corporatist for almost a decade. These stupid, deranged people tear down EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON who even ATTEMPTS to represent their interests. Look at how this board has treated Obama. Would YOU want to represent these people??

This, more than anything in the world, is the reason there is no substantive left party in the United States. How crazy would you have to be to try to represent these imbeciles? You know that the second you actually have to compromise, read GOVERN, they will turn on you and howl louder and worse than any conservative. They are every bit as reactive as the Tea Party and only slightly more informed. And the last thing I want is for black folks to emulate this behavior. This will get us absolutely NOWHERE and our issues are too important.

If you read my OP, you will see that I have not forgotten about Hillary's dog whistling. I have also said that I like Hillary but that doesn't mean I think she needs to be president. But it is looking more every day that she will be the Dem nominee for president and if that's the case, then I will vote for her. She is a bajillion times better than any moron coming out of the Republican, Libertarian, and third parties.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:09 PM

182. I'm actually shocked that I got away with this comment...

 

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #182)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:28 PM

185. They think

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Good grief. You said nothing but the truth.

They tend to talk down on people of color and tell them what is and is not racism.

They tend to tell people of color to shut up and stop being so emotional and "sensitive" about race.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #182)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:18 PM

187. Me too!

And the fact that your post ain't nothing but the truth doesn't mean a damn thing now and sure as hell hasn't in the past.

They tend to talk down on people of color and tell them what is and is not racism.

They tend to tell people of color to shut up and stop being so emotional and "sensitive" about race.


Yep, I've been saying that same thing around here pretty much since March 2008. And Ohhhhh, I've made SOO many good friends doing so too!!

The latest is the Libertarians here now insinuating that black and feminist and gay posters here are "infiltrators" trying to divert from the "true purpose" of the Dem party (which apparently means only addressing the economic issues of straight, white men) and aren't really Democrats at all. And I am dead serious.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #187)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 02:50 PM

188. None of that surprises me one bit. Libertarians also tend to be

 

the biggest closet racists, too.

The "government is bad" is a proxy for states rights.

As a government employee, we're often stereotyped as shiftless, lazy, do-nothing, ineffective people. It is not lost on me that the government has been the one entity where the black community, especially here in the DMV, can do well and move up along the economic ladder. Prince George's County, Maryland would not be where it is today were it not for its incredibly well-educated, professional workforce--many of whom work for the federal government and state and local units around the DMV region.

It therefore should not be lost on anyone that hatred of government not only stems from the fact that the government hires a lot of people of color, but also that it is supposed to support the downtrodden and underserved communities.

That's why any time someone complains about government "taking from someone and giving to someone else who doesn't deserve it," we know that they're talking about black folk as a proxy. Or, if they argue states rights, etc., they really are rallying against the Civil Rights and expansion of voting rights that we won, thanks to the federal government.

People who are white and call themselves Libertarian raise my eyebrow. Just like those on the left who are being fooled by Ron and Rand Paul. They are NOT Libertarians!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #188)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 05:12 PM

191. Absolutely right. That's been a big assed dog whistle for a long time

"taking from someone and giving to someone else who doesn't deserve it," we know that they're talking about black folk


That and the old pining for the Good Old Days bullshit that blankets this board daily. We know what that shit is about too.

Just like those on the left who are being fooled by Ron and Rand Paul. They are NOT Libertarians!

Did you mean to say that they're not liberals? These people on the "left" aren't being fooled by anybody. They know good and damned well why they are supporting the Pauls. I honestly believe that the Pauls' well known propensity for spouting racist crap is what INSPIRES alot of these left libertarians to support them but of course they pretend to brush off the endless racist garbage that spews from the Pauls because they support their "other" policies. This undercover crap doesn't fool anybody and never has.

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:47 PM

203. good post

 

keeps one(me) thinking....

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:04 PM

204. There is more hatred of Hillary on this site than I can find on the mixed boards I post at.

Boards that allow both cons and libs.

More here, way more.

and

white people have no clue what is and isnt important to another community, even though they spend most of their time lecturing other communities.

I know as well as you all do that whether it is Bernie or Hillary, the alternative is a nightmare for everybody, but it will take minorities to see that and explain it to the spoiled, white privileged

And lastly, I dont think any white person in America, including and especially politicians, really spend much of their time worrying about the wrongs done to the AfAm community.

A few do, but so few it is hardly worth mentioning.


(Even my comment here could be construed as a white person lecturing Black people as to who they should and should not vote for, and I recognize that.)

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:34 PM

210. proud Sanders supporter: I could give a shit about the idiots in GD

https://berniesanders.com/issues/

i don't know if he has a chance in hell of winning, but i do appreciate the issues he addresses. and he has my primary vote. as for Democrats, i will likely vote for the candidate in the general...what fucking choice do i have? it will be a reasonable person bought by corporate interests, or a rat-fuck republicon totally beholden to corporate interests. as i have my entire voting life, i will vote for the lesser of two evils. that is a reality that black people know intimately. am i an enthusiastic supporter of the Democratic party? Hell no! talk about taking one for the fucking team: black people have take more than our share for the D team. will i support a Democratic candidate in the general: DUH...hell yes.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #210)

Wed Jun 10, 2015, 05:25 PM

211. Sanders has not said one thing I disagree with him on. Not one

I really like his stance on banks and I'm right there with him screaming about the unsustainability of an economy that only works for rich people. I am concerned though, about his idea that economic issues are the most important and that social issues will be addressed after we've fixed the economic ones.

And I said the same thing upthread about black folks always having to choose between the lesser of two evils. That if we wrote off every politician that said or did something crooked towards us we'd be screaming and baying at the moon like these libertarians that have flooded GD. And that's the last thing that I want. Our issues are too important. So if we have to choose between a milquetoast Dem that may give us 60% of what we need versus a batshit fucking crazy Republican that will not only give us 0-10% of what we need but will work his ass off to actually take AWAY rights that we already have, there's really no contest.

And it is fabulous to see you again, by the way. Check your PM.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #210)

Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:35 PM

212. +1. n/t

 

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Response to Number23 (Original post)

Mon Jun 15, 2015, 03:47 PM

213. in fairness I think most of Hillary's WHITE support is based solely on name recognition

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