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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:33 PM

 

Why are you so *angry*, Manny?

Tonight I had dinner with an old friend who's in town for a job interview. Unbelievably talented engineering manager, possibly the best I've seen at what he does.

Like most people who are roughly my age, say, 45-60, he's been getting bounced around from job to job over the past decade as companies get bought, sold, and harvested by by the 0.01%. He just started a new job a few weeks ago, then found out after he started that - surprise! - his position's only funded for a few months. So he needs to look in case funding doesn't continue. Oh, and his new company is flush with contractors from India learning everyone's jobs. You know, the normal @#$% that happens everywhere in America today.

This is the state of America in 2013.

Confession: I went to an Ivy League college (although my acceptance was likely due to a fluke - buy me a beer and I'll tell you the story). At said school, I got to meet some really smart people. Today, those folks can be lumped into three categories in terms of how they've fared economically as we navigate midlife:

1. Unemployed/underemployed for months or years.
2. Scraping by - getting bounced around by the whims of the 1%, hoping to have enough to retire on.
3. Unbelievably rich. Yachts, waterfront mansions, that whole deal.

All three groups are made, pretty much, from the same people. All smart and ambitious. When we all get together, we're all still the same schmucks we were in college, there are no class distinctions. But due to luck more than anything (as far as I can tell) a few have made out fabulously while most are just scraping by or worse. This is a group of people who came out of college at the top of the world - yet most are, financially, on swampy ground.

So what becomes of the rest of our country? What about the folks that don't go to college? Frankly, I find it mind-blowing that they get by on the insanely-low wages that we pay blue-collar workers here. Even before a private equity firm steals their meager pensions, has them train their foreign replacement, then fires them.

Retirement? Ha. Middle-aged Americans don't earn enough to save, and Social Security is being cut every year through a COLA formula that understates inflation for seniors, rather than overstating it (as billionaires and their purchased politicians and pundits claim). Of course, cutting Social Security through phoney COLA math isn't enough for the Predator Class, so every few months they take another crack at slashing it outright, or making the COLA formula even worse than it is. Ain't gonna be much money for people retiring in a decade or two.

The ship's going down, baby. A few folks are getting away in jewel-encrusted lifeboats, nibbling on foie gras and sipping Sauternes, while our political class strips the few possessions still held by us fools in steerage as still-more plunder for their predator patrons. Paul Ryan's budgets are serious proposals, we're told. We need to compromise, we're told. Let's be reasonable, we're told.

We are being attacked, brutally attacked, and we refuse to fight back. Hell, most of us haven't even figured out who the enemy is.

This used to be a great country, now it is a wreck. Needlessly. We put people on the Moon, we hauled the planet back from The Abyss in the 1940s, we created a middle class that could live a good life on a typical blue-collar salary. Now we are reduced to predators and prey, a cold and hard existence, and the spectacle of our leadership hating math, science, and facts.

WTF?

That's why I'm so angry.

We need change, and we need it fast. Don't ask me to be nice to people who only want to complete our destruction a little more slowly than the other guys. That's not a selling point, sorry.

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Reply Why are you so *angry*, Manny? (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 OP
Fumesucker Nov 2013 #1
MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #2
Fumesucker Nov 2013 #69
bvar22 Nov 2013 #174
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sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #234
leftstreet Nov 2013 #3
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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:38 PM

1. The budget under sequestration is ~already~ less then Ryan's plans, isn't it?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:42 PM

2. Yes. But so wonderously bipartisan!

 

At least it cuts something from the "defense" budget.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:51 AM

69. I'm a bit puzzled by how many smart people can't recognize a "Briar Patch" gambit when they see one

I'm starting to think it's one of the most common political devices out there.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #69)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:08 PM

174. ...and NOBODY has to go home to the voters and take responsibility for cutting Meals-on-Wheels,

Head Start, Food Stamps, and all the other "Social Programs" that help the 99%,
because:
[font size=3]I didn't cut those programs,
The Sequester Did It!!!
[/font]

The perfect SCAM that grants Plausible Deniability to EVERYBODY!


You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their excuses.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #174)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:00 PM

186. Actually, you also know them by their excuses...

 

That and their bootlicker apologists.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #174)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:12 AM

234. Who do they think they are fooling? We KNOW who they are!

Now, what are we going to do about it. The same old game we've played for the past several decades? Everyone voting AGAINST something? Or can we begin to turn this around and start voting FOR something?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:44 PM

3. "Know your enemy and know yourself...

...and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster"

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:46 PM

4. 'Don't ask me to be nice to people who only want to complete the destruction a little

more slowly than the other guys. That's not a selling point, sorry.'

Perfectly stated. I know we helped to get us here because we DID buy the faulty logic that we had to vote for Republicans with Ds after their names. We so wanted to get rid of Bush that for a while we fell for the 'winning is ALL'. Then were left to wonder what exactly does 'winning' mean? Yes we get a few things, when they let the 'left' win. But not much.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:42 AM

115. +1. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:49 PM

5. Question Manny....

 

I don't mean to thread jack so I just wanted to ask quickly....

What if you turn it around and get things cranking for everyone. All those middle age people get retirement, comfort, security, money to spend to make em happy, etc, etc, and the GDP undoubtedly reflects all those things. Somehow you are able to implement a social democracy that cranks over the economy and spreads wealth from the bottom up to revitalize the nation. I'm positive there will be less economic hardship, which is awesome... But if the GDP is tied to carbon emissions, and climate change is going to damn well do it in for everyone's children and starve off billions, how do you reconcile this dilemma? Do you think we can really spread economic justice to everyone according to the current American standard while simultaneously finding a way to live on this small, blue planet, without some fundamentally shift to our civilization drastically outside of the current paradigm? Just curious if you've thought of that at all in your free time. And another question: if we figure out to solve all our economic and political problems to create an egalitarian society, what happens if Asia/India/Africa does the same following our example? Those would be some crazy boom times indeed

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:58 PM

6. Well, we need to fundamentally shift the paradigm

 

Our dependence on fossil fuels can be changed, and it will be changed one our country is again run by people with a brain in their skull, a bone in their back, and good will in their hearts.

Their is an unimaginable amount of renewable energy within our planet. And it's unimaginable that we can't find the way to tap it, once we have the will.

As to the poorer nations booming along with us? That's great. What we need to stop is the unbridled Capitalism that lets people profit from arbitraging the differences in costs between countries. For example, we should only have free trade with countries that have costs and policies similar to ours. Those with lower wages or looser restrictions should be hit with tariffs to equalize the situation.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:05 AM

8. Yet technophilia might not be drastic enough

 

IOW, the idea that we aren't doing anything wrong, but rather, we haven't developed the technology to save us yet and help us do it right (which will, according to the faithful, come in time so now we do not have to change our ways). Some people might not be able to have their cake (a booming modern social democracy) and live to eat it too. Just saying...

Maybe its not just a dependence on fossil fuel thats the problem. Maybe its the dependence on the notion of energy, and work, and consumption and environmental exploitation, etc, etc. Honestly, if you can put a solar panel on a bulldozer, it might not be enough at the end of the day. In any case, I will relent. Thanks. Enjoy.

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:29 AM

11. Both are true, IMHO

 

We haven't developed the technology, and we're doing things wrong.

Technology has transformed our lives in many ways - for example, a family can have a single child these days and be quite confident that their child will live to be an adult. When my father was growing up, two of his five siblings perished during childhood. Both would have been easily saved by today's technologies.

But, if anything, our new technologies increase the need to have more rational and enlightened ways of living with one-another. After all, we can now destroy an awful lot with minimal effort - we need a way of living that recognizes that power we have.

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:30 AM

133. Well, for starters, let's put people to work building that green infrastructure.

That is, let's put them to work for about 24 hours a week apiece and pay a living wage of $30/hour. We can do that if we just level the payouts a little.

Then we need to find reasonable ways to make drastic reductions in our birthrate. I think the world has a realistic carrying capacity of 1 to 2 billion people.

Nationalize anything that's "too big to fail" or inherently monopolistic: Banks, energy companies, health care etc.

Re-institute communities in which people know and care for their neighbors.

Rebuild our educational system and provide free education for everyone with the talent and interest, preschool through PhDs, MDs, etc.

Totally restructure our childrearing and childcare system, beginning with primary prevention, including intervening in abusive home environments, rebuilding school environments to meet the actual emotional, mental & physical needs of kids, thereby reclassifying things like "ADHD" as just part of the normal range of human ways of being, and generally making sure kids get what they need to be come fully functional humans.

Totally reform the criminal justice system, with a heavy emphasis on therapy and recidivism reduction. There is no need to incarcerate any but those who remain dangerous to others.

I have a few other ideas as well, but the modest measures I cite above should help to get us on the right path.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #133)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:40 PM

168. As long as we're dreaming...

Regulate the hell out of the breeding/raising/selling of livestock to discourage its production and consumption.

Result: Public health improves, environment improves and grain crops can once again feed starving people.


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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #133)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:25 PM

176. Nationalize?

I really like all of your points about how to climb out of this hole that we've been digging. I'm not sure that a country nationalizing some facet is the right course. It might be all we can do for now, but not sufficient.

However, I'd like all of us to start thinking about doing whatever we can to make these suggestions apply world-wide.

What are the inalienable rights of all of the world's populace? Should they be the same, or more, of those afforded by the US Constitution? I think so.

Should universal health care be planet wide? Education? Sufficient food and shelter and safety? Absolutely.

What stands in the way is nationalism (and its evil twin, religion). Of course parochial and racial tendencies are perhaps inherent and may take generations to cure.

Why is a particular country (USA, Australia, China, Kenya, Vietnam) held up as being the way to deal with universal problems? We (I'm in the USA) have shown ourselves to be particularly self-serving and dismissive of others' cultures and approaches to these problems. I forget the numbers, but it's something like only 30% of US citizens have ever been outside of the country. How can we understand the world without at least sampling other viewpoints?

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Response to erronis (Reply #176)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:55 PM

178. I won't quibble about nationalizing, and take your point.

Actually, I have a general distrust of governments about equal to my distrust of corporations, and would maybe prefer some sort of international anarcho-syndicalist model.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:56 PM

173. +100 Sounds good! Especially the last sentence.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:28 AM

244. Great point.

"Those with lower wages or looser restrictions should be hit with tariffs to equalize the situation."

That would also help our federal revenue problem.

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:56 AM

21. Well this is long...2 hours.

But if you have the time it is enlightening.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #21)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:06 AM

30. Thanks.

 

Bookmarking. Will give it a watch later.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #21)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:13 PM

175. Attitude altering hopeful film, thanks for posting.

Although in the end, it states that we will have to suffer much before we are dragged kicking and screaming into sustainability for the human race to survive.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:04 AM

7. My opinion?

This is one of your best OPs, Manny. And BTW, I look forward to your response to NoOneMan's comment.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:09 AM

9. I know why you are mad Manny. And we know who the enemy is. The 1% of course goes without saying.

 

The TeaBaggers carrying water for the 1% against their best interest. And then we have the Con-Dems that we can even find right here in DU City pretending they meet the criteria to post here of being "politically liberal". They may show disgust for the 1% and their Brown Shirted TeaBaggers, but they are afraid to fight back. They call their cowardice pragmatism. "Only a few millions of children going to bed hungry. It could be worse." I am mad also.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:44 AM

116. Me too. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:24 AM

10. I Love You Manny... Did You Catch This ???

 

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Response to WillyT (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:36 AM

12. Thanks for pointing it out - it's great!

 





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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:38 AM

13. This country was never quite as great as we like to say it used to be

I remember segregation; I remember the draft and Vietnam, and the 50,000+ young men my age who were drafted and died there—who never got to get a job or a home or a pension. I remember the stories of how my father, with his master's degree, couldn't be hired because the major pharmaceutical company in our area did not hire Jews. He never had a pension (though was able to work late in life and put some away, and is lucky enough to be part of the "notch" that gets higher Social Security than those who were born after him.) I remember Cesar Chavez and Delores Huerta.

I'm a little young to remember the Army McCarthy hearings, but I came to know several people who lost their livelihoods during that period--who had to leave the country and go to Europe to make a living.

America was really never that great if you were Black or Latino or, frankly, a woman: economic inequality was as great for these groups then as it is for everyone now. It was maybe pretty good if you were a white male, either working in a steel mill or a graduate of an Ivy League college. (It's still pretty good if you're the latter.) So white boys, you're angry? Join the rest of us.

The good old days were not truly all that good. And 40 or 50 years from now, people will be talking about how this used to be a great country in the 2010s, but now (in 2060), it's a wreck.

On edit: I remember too when we finally bought our first house. We were in our 30s and had two children already, and we still had to borrow money from my folks for the down payment, despite being highly educated. The interest rate on that house was 9%. It was about 1400 square feet and had one bathroom (we eventually made a 3/4 bath in the basement). We lived in it for more than a dozen years (and would have stayed there if we hadn't had to move to another state).

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Response to frazzled (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:44 AM

15. *Progress*

 

I think the measure is whether we're making progress or not. We made great progress for many years.

There were also awful periods - the 1920s and early 1930s were similar to today in many ways. Fortunately we got FDR and the better angels of our natures, and righteousness prevailed.

Do we get FDR this time? Or Hitler?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:46 AM

16. Oh, don't pull out the Hitler card ... please.

C'mon, that's what we do when we run out of things to say. I know you can do better than that.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:55 AM

20. Don't think it can happen here?

 

Have you made a study of Germany - and the the US - in the 1920s and 1930s?

When things get bad, things can get weird and awful, and fast. For example, Germany was the single-most tolerant country in Europe when it came to Jews in the early part of the 20th century. Then life got bad for the 99% in Germany, and... there were changes.

My wife's grandfather was a member of the American Nazi Party in the 1930s. The American Nazi Party was quite large back then. And it's not like Hitler's feelings were hidden - he wrote a whole book about how he felt about the Jews and everything else.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:00 AM

27. It could happen anywhere

And a meteor could crash into the middle of Brooklyn, too. (I'm not being facetious.)

It just has nothing to do with what I wrote, which was about how things were never as rosy as we like to paint them. Not even under the illustrious FDR: if you were an agricultural worker or a domestic worker or a government employee--or 50% of the population--Social Security wasn't meant for you. Just mostly the white guys (and I do mean "guys."

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Response to frazzled (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:08 AM

32. But Social Security went from 0% to 50% - huge progress!

 

As to whether America is exceptional in our ability to ward off rule by monsters - I hope you're right, but I see no reason for your optimism.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:17 AM

43. And we're still having progress today

Despite all the obstructionism from the right: we will have near 100% coverage for the previously uninsured in this country, achieving universal coverage for the first time in US history; and there will be parity for the first time in mental health treatment. We have achieved equity for LGBT individuals for the first time ever, with the full acceptance of gays in the military and the repeal of DOMA. We have historic fuel efficiency standards of 54.5 mpg in place, helping to reduce emissions. We got the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act -- equity for women many decades in coming.

We're not exactly standing still, and not moving backward ... at least from where we were in, say, the 90s.

We're even possibly going to get curbs on CEO compensation.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:21 AM

46. The median American wage is dropping, dropping.

 

While the wealthy get what they want.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:31 AM

51. Median ...

Yes, as I said, middle-class white guys are finally experiencing what the rest of America always had. That's why they're *angry.*

If you're African American, your income was far far below the average income for whites back in the good old days. It actually got better, but it's still far far below the average income for whites. Nothing's changed about that. It was never better before, not in the "good old days."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/daily/graphics/raceWages_101804.html

And I've been talking about income inequality and corporate salaries since the mid 1980s. This didn't spring full blown from the head of Medusa.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:35 AM

53. I'd like for us to all do equally well

 

Rather than equally poorly.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:30 AM

111. Interesting ...

 

After a soul bearing OP, you still refuse to acknowledge Frazzled's point ... which leaves me with, what I consider the key problem with white male economic progressives, you want us to do equally well, not equally poorly ... Starting with you ... you seem to want to get around to those troubling race/gender disparities AFTER the race/gender-affected help you change the world to YOUR ... erm, I'm sorry ... OUR benefit.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #111)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:48 AM

120. Important observation.

Just a question, though. Is Manny your ally or your enemy? How do you see it?



-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #120)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:59 AM

125. I'm still trying to figure that out ...

 

I would say that People of Color are far better friends to people like Manny, than people like Manny will ever be to us. Manny's argument seems to be that "a rising tide, lifts all boats"; but the reality is, I/we have no confidence that working to raise their boat will lift my/our heads above water.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #125)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:10 AM

127. Honest answer. Thanks. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #127)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:19 AM

131. I would add ...

 

that this lack of confidence is not without basis ... If the goal is to see us all do equally well, doesn't that really just enforce the status quo with respect to the working classes (read: lift up white males and they will lift up people of color.)

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #111)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:43 PM

152. A while back I got roasted alive for pointing out that minorities have gotten battered far worse

 

than whites in this last recession. I was called an Obama-hater and worse.

Even though people of color started far below whites at the beginning of the recession, they've slid backwards at a good deal further than white folks.

It's not the president's fault, but it is a strong indicator that racism is still the norm in this country.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #111)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:25 PM

180. "you seem to want"

 

Got a link or a quote?

My post said nothing of the sort.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #180)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:08 PM

209. Okay ... you're correct ...

 

you have said NOTHING about wanting to get around to racial/gender disparities ... only 1% vs 99% disparity.

My bad! But really, really troubling ... at least for non-white, non-males.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #209)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:14 PM

212. Did I break that in to black 99% vs. white 99%?

 

Please forgive my inclusivity. But yes, of course I believe that ending disparities due to race, gender, and sexual preference must end. We're all in this together.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #212)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:23 PM

214. Okay n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #111)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:18 PM

189. You must be reading somebody else's post since that is not what Manny wrote.

 

Perhaps, if instead of reading what is not there, you should actually read what is reality-based.

Perhaps I ask too much.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #189)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:09 PM

211. Okay n/t

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:53 PM

163. +1

me too

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Response to frazzled (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:41 AM

56. And we women too...

 

it's only now that "white guys" are feeling it....

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #56)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:01 PM

142. It works that way with class, too.

Shipping jobs out of the country, back when those jobs were blue-collar, was all a matter of capitalism's creative destruction and other such Fortune Magazine crap, and those guys who used to work at the lawnmower factory needed to upgrade their skills or be left behind in our newly competitive world.

Then, of course, when white collar professional jobs started getting shipped out, outsourcing was suddenly a crime against humanity and needed to stop right fucking now.

Of course, the same applies to LGBT issues. Back before the president evolved, DU was full of helpful straight people advising LGBT types to shut up and quite demanding their "fabulous pink pony" (in the words of one tombstoned and recently returned poster). Out "little pet issues" (in another popular phrase of the time) were just not that important in the bigger scheme of things, according to people with all the legal rights of free Americans.

Truth is, most people don't think something is important unless and until it touches them personally. That sucks, but it doesn't mean that the situation in this country is any less dire for the 99%.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 01:30 AM

288. I'm not seeing the big improvement since 1967.

 

Yeah, 47% increase in income, but the black/white gap in 2003 dollars is actually larger today than in 1967; $15986 v. $14580.





And the wealth gap between white and black widened considerably during and after the recession.


WASHINGTON — Millions of Americans suffered a loss of wealth during the recession and the sluggish recovery that followed. But the last half-decade has proved far worse for black and Hispanic families than for white families, starkly widening the already large gulf in wealth between non-Hispanic white Americans and most minority groups, according to a new study from the Urban Institute.

“It was already dismal,” Darrick Hamilton, a professor at the New School in New York, said of the wealth gap between black and white households. “It got even worse.”

The Urban Institute study found that the racial wealth gap yawned during the recession, even as the income gap between white Americans and nonwhite Americans remained stable. As of 2010, white families, on average, earned about $2 for every $1 that black and Hispanic families earned, a ratio that has remained roughly constant for the last 30 years. But when it comes to wealth — as measured by assets, like cash savings, homes and retirement accounts, minus debts, like mortgages and credit card balances — white families have far outpaced black and Hispanic ones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/business/racial-wealth-gap-widened-during-recession.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0




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Response to frazzled (Reply #43)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:13 PM

258. I guess it's how you measure. More unemployed, more losing homes, more

 

losing retirements, more in poverty. College graduates working part time at fast food. But corporate profits are at all time highs. How many more years of this can the middle class survive?

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Response to frazzled (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:19 AM

45. It sounds like we grew up at about the same time.

There were great accomplishments by our leaders and unmitigated man-made disasters.

I happened upon this video last week. It hit me like a ton of bricks---the dichotomy of the 60's.

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Response to blue neen (Reply #45)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:24 AM

48. Indeed!

That's a great video, that brings back memories. Some good, some bad.

I did live in New York City when it was dirty. I miss it! (My old neighborhood looks like a freaking shopping mall now.)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:05 AM

29. Manny, I know someone who is quite the expert on the NAZIs and Hitler, lived through the period

and through the aftermath "over there." And you are absolutely right.

I haven't done the math, but I question whether recessions result when the gap between the incomes of rich and poor in a country get to a stress or tipping point. I suspect that based on my knowledge of history.

And, yes. Hitler road in on the promise to end a recession. If you talk to people who lived during his Reich, they will tell you that he did bring pretty full employment. That is the positive that people in Germany and Austria remember about him. The negative they also remember, but they almost always told me but Hitler gave people jobs.

We Democrats have to figure out a way to return to producing jobs as well as products in the USA. That is why I am hoping we will persuade Elizabeth Warren to run in 2016. She could maintain democracy while creating jobs. We have to have both. One without the other does not work well.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:10 AM

34. Hitler and FDR both brought jobs.

 

We can do it one way or the other. I think those are our two choices, at this point.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #34)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:12 AM

38. Yes. Because people with college degrees are working in fast food joints, and that

is a terrible waste of a good mind. (I know. I used to do it.)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #34)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:50 AM

122. Spot on, Manny.

We need to choose carefully.

-Laelth

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Response to frazzled (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:44 AM

237. Oh, don't pull the 'godwin card' .... please.

Know anyone who lived in Germany during the late '20s and '30s or their children? I have talked to several people whose families lived there and I'll take their opinions over people who refuse to learn from history. Put it this way, ALL of them find what is happening here pretty disturbing.

'Those who refuse to learn from history are destined to repeat it'. Never Forget!

You might find Sen. Ron Wyden's father's memoirs regarding his family's escape from Germany just in time, interesting. He too didn't believe things could ever get beyond some 'difficult times'.

And their family history is the reason why Ron Wyden is often the lone, warning voice in Congress against the creeping fascism he so well recognizes.

Complacency allowed Hitler to happen. Vigilence could have stopped him. There is a lot of complacency around these days despite the familiar signs that went unchecked in history. We humans are not very good at learning from mistakes. Which is why history does keep repeating itself.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:40 PM

274. Manny, I assume you're white

 

You should actually listen to what frazzled had to say.

America was not great for minorities even during the days of FDR. Hell, FDR rounded up a bunch of Japanese-Americans simply because of their race.

The notion that America was great back then works well for white people like yourself, but minorities will have a different perspective.

You should respect that.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:43 AM

14. k&r

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:50 AM

17. It's probably all those

"This used to be a great country, now it is a wreck. Needlessly. We put people on the Moon, we hauled the planet back from The Abyss in the 1940s, we created a middle class that could live a good life on a typical blue-collar salary. Now we are reduced to predators and prey, a cold and hard existence, and the spectacle of our leadership hating math, science, and facts."

...minorities and poor people why this is no longer a "great country"...you know, the ones who weren't "Ivy League" educated and don't earn six figures.

Yeah, it should have a sarcasm tag...just in case.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:59 AM

24. Manny has the education to understand and analyze what he sees around him.

That is nothing to be sarcastic about. I don't have an "Ivy League" education, don't earn six figures, but I agree with Manny and am glad he is on DU and posting what HE THINKS and not the usual machine-washed drivel we get from some of the professional politicians and their spokespeople (unofficial and official).

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:00 AM

26. Yeah, we're doomed and they suck.

Free.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:10 AM

35. That's the way it is now. It doesn't have to stay that way.

We can move toward change. But when people try to persuade folks who get jobs that turn out over and over to be merely temporary, when young people can't buy homes or plan to have a family because between student loans to repay and job insecurity, they are too frightened to risk a pregnancy, we are in serious trouble as a country.

The powers that be at the moment can whitewash the mess all they want. But they just make it more likely that an extremist with easy, but very dangerous solutions will come into power.

All is not well, not well at all, and our government is not dealing with the dismal reality that so many of our brightest and best are facing. And if they are facing such a dismal future, what about those who didn't get the Ivy League education and aren't necessarily brilliant, like most of us. What happens?

A cheery, unrealistic optimism does not solve the problems that do exist. Just talk to teachers who have lost their jobs. Talk to people who learned skills they used working in factories twenty years ago. They will wake you up to the reality.

It ain't pretty out there. Why pretend?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:13 AM

39. What

"We can move toward change."

...does that mean? Seriously, look around. Advocate something. People can't live and survive on cliches.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:24 AM

47. Don't adopt the TPP. Change our trade agreements to protect American jobs -- not too much

but enough so that Americans have a chance to compete and earn the wages they need to survive in our domestic economy. Change our trade agreements and start making things, producing more ordinary things, more steel, start innovating more here and employing Americans to produce the new products we innovate and then we will have real change and jobs, jobs, jobs.

Today I shopped for blue jeans. I saw one rack of flimsy-looking cardigans that were Made in the USA. Everything else was made in Asia. Every imported item we buy means a higher unemployment rate for Americans. It is as simple as that.

Change our trade policy just a little. We don't have to become isolationist. We just have to encourage companies to employ Americans through our tax and incentive system. That's how we can improve the job situation and our country. When people can't get jobs, they lose hope for a better life. That either has to change or people will turn to those who provide absurd and even dangerous but at least some hope. Right now a lot of people do not have much hope.

The economy has improved a little, but not nearly enough, not nearly enough. And there is too little discussion about how to improve it faster and more. The TPP is not the way. It will drag us down further.

One reason I don't think Hillary should run in 2016 is that she will be haunted by slogans about the damage that NAFTA has caused to the American job market. That is going to happen, and it will be a disaster.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #47)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:25 AM

50. Best thing to do: Increase the minimum wage

That affects tens of millions of Americans.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #50)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:43 AM

57. The minimum wage doesn't apply if you're jobless

 

Which the TPP should accomplish in spades.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #57)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:49 AM

62. Yeah,

"The minimum wage doesn't apply if you're jobless. Which the TPP should accomplish in spades."

...because a not yet in effect trade agreement means more to people looking for a job than than increasing the minimum wage, right?

Maybe if they sign this next year, and it's ratified by Congress withing two years, then we can get around to the lesser stuff like increasing the minimum wage.

Ride it out, baby.


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Response to ProSense (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:53 AM

71. See my post #1 on this thread n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:56 AM

73. I suppose that if someone's punching us in the face, taping

 

a pillow to our head would be seen as the best solution by some. Others might call for justice and law enforcement.

Different strokes...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #73)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:58 AM

75. Like I said,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024013403#post62

...and apparently you have no valid response.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #73)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:58 PM

202. +1

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Response to ProSense (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:01 AM

76. A not-yet-in-effect minimum wage increase trumps a not-yet-in-effect "free" trade bill?

 

At least the minimum-wage bill's not secret.

How about we just scrap the TPP *and* raise the minimum wage?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #76)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:02 AM

78. Yes, and

"How about we just scrap the TPP *and* raise the minimum wage?"

...how about we raise the minimum wage this year? In fact, do it before Christmas.



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Response to ProSense (Reply #78)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:06 AM

79. A bill could be written that did both at the same time

Sounds like bad fanfic, eh?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #50)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:54 AM

89. Yes. But unless we change our trade policy, the underlying problems will not be solved.

The minimum wage increase is not enough in and of itself, although it would solve many problems especially with regard to the federal budget and tax revenue.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #89)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:03 PM

165. Seriously, this is a joke.

Yes. But unless we change our trade policy, the underlying problems will not be solved.

The minimum wage increase is not enough in and of itself, although it would solve many problems especially with regard to the federal budget and tax revenue.

The negative impacts of trade policies are well known, primarily losing jobs to overseas. The estimates are that NAFTA cost about 700,000 to 800,000 jobs since it was implemented.

That isn't to minimize job losses, and people are still speculating about the effects of the TPP. Could it be worse? Could it eliminate twice as many jobs as NAFTA after two decades?

The notion that increasing the wages of 30 million people is somehow less important than trade policy is ludicrous.

The impact of doing so this year would immediately and significantly impact the lives of tens of millions of low-income Americans.


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Response to ProSense (Reply #165)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:25 PM

183. Yes. Raising the minimum wage will help people short-term, but it will not bring back the lost

jobs. Changing our trade policies will.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #183)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:44 AM

231. "Raising the minimum wage will help people short-term"

Short term, incapable of extrapolating long term effects/conditions.

Yes this is what Muricans are good at.

So why belittle people that can see long term? Because they might expose the short term liars. Me thinks a control issue is at stake.

We all need to start thinking long term consistent effect. Period.

-p

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Response to ProSense (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:31 AM

102. No, THEY'RE doomed and they suck.

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #26)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:48 AM

238. We're only doomed if we don't start changing what we've been doing which sure hasn't worked

for a majority of people, here and in those countries we 'are bringing democracy' to.

It's past time for Progressives to start taking matters into their own hands and 'moving forward' rather than playing along with the same old tactics of, for one thing, voting AGAINST the 'other guy'. THAT has to go once and for all, just to begin with. That old game isn't working so well anymore.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:58 PM

223. 10000++++^^^^^^^^

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:02 AM

28. I'm reading this shitty OP and my eyes almost rolled out of my head

GOD I am so sick of certain people trying to tell all the rest of us how horrible this country is now and how the era of our grandparents getting the shit knocked out of them on a daily basis and being denied every goddamned opportunity that these folks got whether they fucking deserved them or not, that THOSE were the Good Old Days.

I know black and brown folks who have better political instincts in a coma than this particular OP and they did this without an "Ivy League" education. I am just so sick of the endless and beyond boring attempts at division and shit stirring.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:16 AM

42. So, how do you think things are going these days?

 

Better than I do, I reckon?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #42)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:25 AM

49. Who doesn't?

I think things could be a hell of a lot better. But I know how bad things have been.

And if I thought that endlessly complaining on an obscure web site would make things better for everyone, I'd be one of the main ones kicking and recing your unceasing attempts to make everyone as miserable as you seem to believe they deserve to be.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:34 AM

52. You don't understand,

the DLCNSATPP are more important than health care, the minimum wage and SNAP and unemployment benefits.

Mention the acronyms, and people mobilize. Those other issues are only relevant in passing. Those other issues that impact people's lives immediately and for the better aren't "march in the streets" issues.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #52)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:41 AM

55. Are things getting better or worse for the average American?

 

Do they have better days or worse? Are they more secure or less?

Throwing tax dollars at problems in an attempt to mitigate some of the pain may be better done than not. But it should not be confused with attacking the problem. It is palliative care, at best.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #55)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:45 AM

61. Well,

The ship's going down, baby. A few folks are get away in jewel-encrusted lifeboats, nibbling on foie gras and sipping Sauternes, while our political class strips the few possessions still held by us fools in steerage as still-more plunder for their predator patrons. Paul Ryan's budgets are serious proposals, we're told. We need to compromise, we're told. Let's be reasonable, we're told.

...based on that from the OP, it doesn't matter if it's "getting better or worse for the average American," does it?

"Throwing tax dollars at problems in an attempt to mitigate some of the pain may be better done than not. But it should not be confused with attacking the problem. It is palliative care, at best."

We're doomed. Just ride it out. "Throwing tax dollars" at food stamps and unemployment is a waste of money in this scenario.

Why even bother increasing the minimum wage? It's not going to be enough anyway.

We're doomed. Ride it out, baby!

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Response to ProSense (Reply #61)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:50 AM

66. Why wake up? The Sun will explode in a few billion years.

 

ProSense, you're better than that sophistry.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #66)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:51 AM

68. LOL! Yeah, you got nothing. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #61)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:32 PM

160. Just Ride it out?

The Top .01 Percent Reach New Heights
http://www.demos.org/blog/9/13/13/top-01-percent-reach-new-heights

US Wealthy Have Biggest Piece of Pie Ever Recorded
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/11-6

Rates of unemployment for families earning less than $20,000 - have topped 21 percent
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_JOBS_GAP_RICH_AND_POOR?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-16-08-11-23


Gallop: 20.4% of Americans now “going hungry”.
http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/12/20460846-1-in-5-americans-struggling-to-put-food-on-the-table?lite

Study: "Trade" Deal Would Mean a Pay Cut for 90% of U.S. Workers
http://citizen.typepad.com/eyesontrade/2013/09/the-verdict-is-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership-tpp-a-sweeping-free-trade-deal-under-negotiation-with-11-pacific-rim-coun.html

Obama Appoints Bain Capital Consultant Jeff Ziets to Top Post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662209

Obama selects former Monsanto lobbyist to be his TPP chief agriculture negotiator
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662210

The Totally Unfair And Bitterly Uneven 'Recovery,' In 12 Charts – HuffPo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662029


Income gap widest ever: 95 Percent of Recovery Income Gains Have Gone to the Top 1 Percent
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/09/10/one_percent_recovery_95_percent_of_gains_have_gone_to_the_top_one_percent.html


Older Workers:.Set Back by Recession, and Shut Out of Rebound
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/booming/for-laid-off-older-workers-age-bias-is-pervasive.html?smid=tw-share&_r=3&

40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage
http://seeingtheforest.com/40-of-americans-now-make-less-than-1968-minimum-wage/


Daily CEO Pay Now Exceeds the Average Worker's Annual Salary –
http://thecontributor.com/daily-ceo-pay-now-exceeds-us-workers-annual-salary




76% of Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/24/pf/emergency-savings/index.html


New Rule (Passed by Congress and signed by President Obama) signals Kiss of Death for Pensions
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100694955


Corporate Profits Have Grown By 171 Percent Under Obama -- Highest Rate Since 1900
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/corporate-profits-have-grown-171-percent-under-obama-highest-rate-1900

Wealthy win lion's share of major tax breaks
http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013/05/29/wealthy-win-lion-share-major-tax-breaks/Ua0UyYle21EUXub7g1suCI/story.html

Half of America is in poverty, and its creeping toward 75%
http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0

Wealth gap widens as labor's share of income falls
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wealth-gap-widens-labors-share-income-falls-1B6097385

As the Economy Recovers, the Wealth Gap Widens
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2013/03/11/as-the-economy-recovers-the-wealth-gap-widens

Top One Percent Captured 121 Percent Of All Income Gains
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/top-one-percent-income-gains_n_2670455.html

Corporate Profits Hit Record High While Worker Wages Hit Record Low
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/03/1270541/corporate-profits-wages-record/?mobile=nc


THIS ^ does NOT happen by accident.
It is the result of carefully planned and implemented Economic Policy.
It requires careful preparation, marketing, buying the right politicians, message control, courts packed with Conservative Corporate Rights Judges, and the marginalization and suppression of any opposition.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #55)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:49 AM

63. "Throwing tax dollars at problems " is what wingnuts say and usually towards people of color

for people of color things were not great years ago. there are still many things to be done. and it doesn't mean things are great now.

but no need to pretend it's worse now.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #63)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:52 AM

70. Weird, isn't it? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #70)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:54 AM

72. coming from someone who said if they could overturn any election

in the last 40 few decades and picked 2008 i'm not surprised.



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Response to JI7 (Reply #72)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:40 AM

86. Yep. And I'll just leave it at "yep"

and my pre-edits. Sick of the tired and extraordinarily pointless little game being played and I have no interest in wasting my time.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #63)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:51 AM

123. You don't understand ...

 

it IS worse now ... people NOT of color are feeling what people of color have always experienced. The solution: People of color should get out-raged and help people not of color fight; they'll surly get around to the underlying race/gender disparity issues ... once they have vanished the 1%.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #123)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:41 PM

221. Dear Strong Black Man

 

Race analysis in this discussion is relevant and integrated with Class analysis. It's not divorced or separate. The implication, in my view is unwarranted.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #221)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:06 AM

224. I disagree ...

 

on both points ... the race analysis is not integrated with Class analysis; it is separate and, largely, divorced.

If the analysis were truly integrated, then the starting, and/or focus point for closing the gap would start with those most affected by the inequity, i.e., "minorities."

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #224)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:17 AM

227. Carlin and Marx

 

I understand that you don't recognize that the "starting point" for closing the gap of inequality and disparity must be based on class/race analysis equally. But from my experience, when we choose to give priority to one over the other, invariably (nearly 100% of the time) division/divisiveness is immediately created as a direct cause of giving priority to the other.

Our conversation demonstrates my point, making my case. Do you see what I mean?

I'm saying we can't have one without the other.. I'm trying to say that matters of race, gender and class (that is to say, issues of inequality) are the result of the very same construct.

Because I'm a woman, I might try to argue that gender inequality is more important than race or class. after all we've suffered inequality throughout millennium and to this day. And I can hold up history to make that case quite effectively, and we can have a pissing contest to see which group has suffered from the power of the white man more.

Or, we recognize that we share the same "enemy" ... and oh by the way, so does our blue collar white brother. It's the same fucking people who own us, who are making the rules, ripping us off every day of our lives, endlessly lying to us, sending us off to their endless wars and so on.. as George Carlin once put it, it's a Big Club, but You and I aren't in it.

I agree with Carlin and Marx.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #227)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 08:13 AM

250. Yes ...

 

I understand your point ... as whatever group whose condition is not addressed, except as an overall strategy will distrust that the benefitted group will work on their particular issues, once they gain parity. I, as a Black man, understand that all too well ... our history is full of examples to draw from; our history is full of examples where Black folks have fought for the greater good, only to find the favor to not be returned in any serious way.

And you are correct ... women can point to similar examples ... and that is why, we (Black folks and women find ourselves chronically disparate.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #250)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:51 PM

263. Indeed I agree with you..

 

There is also something of a paradox (for a lack of a better term) deeply rooted in the human condition in the form of corruption and greed - particularly within the political arena, members holding public office betraying those they were elected to represent..

Like Dianne Feinstein for instance.

Who knew she was actually intending to represent the ruling class because after all, she was always a member of the ruling class..... When we lift the veils from our eyes, we must realize what is there before everyone to see is essentially on the pages of Orwell's Animal Farm.

There's an image floating around facebook of a woman carrying a sign that says: Nation of Sheep, Enforcers of Wolves, Rulers of Pigs. Nothing new in this certainly, but it bares repeating just the same. If only to stir in us enough of a will and intention to flip this paradigm on it's head with an eye and intention towards racial & gender equality and socio-economic parity, in my view.



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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #224)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:30 AM

236. Hey man, good luck. You're dealing with some special stuff right there

No wonder you didn't come back to this thread.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #236)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:02 AM

241. thanks for bumping a thread you have no time for..

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #52)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:44 AM

138. +1

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Response to Number23 (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:50 AM

67. What is the minimum wage where you live? n/t

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Response to Number23 (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:24 AM

110. things are still bad

 

Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:12 PM - Edit history (1)

for black and brown people. Even on par with the 50's with the voting restrictions and unbridled racism and hate. Yeah, I grew up in those 'worse' times you mentioned and I say thank 'god' for THIS "OBSCURE" website. At the least it is a forum for a lot of discussion of what is wrong in this nation. I am happy we have people like MG, don't always agree with him, but people on here, by and large, I want in my foxhole. You're digging alone buddy. Get on board! There's room for your opinion, just stick with us blacks, browns, whites, LGBT's and other 'concerned' citizens. As long as we're 'fighting' we ain't lost yet.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:45 AM

117. Which brings us to Frazzled's point n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #117)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:50 PM

276. Frazzled posts in this thread should be the ones with 329 recs. But you and I know BOTH know

that would never, ever, ever happen here. And we know why too.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #276)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:57 PM

287. Yup ...

 

and Yup ... Sighhh ...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #42)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:52 AM

239. Manny, the comment you just responded to COMPLETELY validates this OP.

If I didn't already agree with it, after seeing that comment I wouldn't even have to read it. Some things are kind of like barometers. And now I know for sure how right you are! Lol!

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Response to Number23 (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:29 AM

132. Then why dont you simply trash this thread and/or put Manny on ignore?

 

Instead you want to tell everyone how sick you are of others that are trying to deal with reality and not some denial led illusion.

Your pretense at being " sick of the endless and beyond boring attempts at division and shit stirring" seems disingenuous as you throw gas on the fire with statements like "this shitty OP" clearly aimed at shit stirring.

If a peak at reality makes you sick, trash the thread.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #132)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:41 AM

137. So why don't you ...

 

place Number 23 on ignore?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #132)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:56 PM

181. And here comes the White Knight to the rescue. No one with a less than glowing word for Manny

will be spared your pithy comments. I think fully 1/3 of your comments in this forum have to be at Manny's defense. How lucky he is to inspire such devotion.

If you think this post "peaks" at reality, I can understand why you are Manny's biggest fan and greatest defender and why my comment about the folks whining about the Good Old Days always seem to forget that millions of people writhed in misery while they enjoyed those Good Old Days flew over your head.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #181)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:12 PM

188. What I notice is that those of you that seem to attack in harmony dont have

 

counter arguments. You vilify those that dont want to accept the conservative status-quo.

And I get it that I made a misspelling error.

" I think fully 1/3 of your comments in this forum have to be at Manny's defense." I confess, that's true. When you attack the person and not the argument, I will speak up.

Are you here in DU to discuss issues or are you here simply to disparage the left?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #188)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:29 PM

190. Considering the amount of misspelled hysteria-ladden vitriol you spew all over this web site

The irony of you trying to dictate what people can post here is just about the funniest thing I've seen all month. Hint: My comment calling you the White Knight was truly sarcasm.

I'll remember your attempts to chasten others the next time you and your friends start up with the "corporatist Third Waying propanda!11" insults that make up the other 2/3 of all of your posts. And people that make it their life's mission to disparage centrists and moderates should be the last ones howling when people make less than glowing comments about the "left." Not that I consider you or the OP to be in that group anyway.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #190)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:57 PM

192. Let's look at the irony. You posted that the OP was shitty. Now why would you do that if

 

you arent trying to dictate what can be posted here? Do you and your friends think that disparaging the OP and Manny personally, that you can control what he posts? That's a rhetorical question because I know you think that. I have seen good, decent leftist ridiculed out of DU, so I know it works for some.

If you dont like the OP and you have counter arguments, then speak out. Save the ridicule and mocking for the schoolyard.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #192)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:59 PM

194. Posting an OPINION of a post does not mean that I am trying to dictate what is posted here

Which is exactly the same as "why don't you trash thread/put Manny on ignore" etc. etc. as you did in your response to my post which wasn't even to you in the first place.

And I'm not surprised in the least that you had to have that explained.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #194)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:04 PM

196. You just cant help yourself can you?

 

"And I'm not surprised in the least that you had to have that explained. " When you dont have any decent argument, just resort to ridicule and mocking.

Go bully someone else.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #196)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:09 PM

198. I see you attack dog anyone that dares to post a different opinion in thread after thread after

thread. As I noted before, my calling you the White Knight was the height of irony, especially after I made it clear as crystal what my issue was with this OP, something you blithely decided to ignore in order to try to come after me as you do everyone else.

And if this exchange has lead YOU to understand that *I* will not be bullied and especially by the likes of you, then it was worth it.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #198)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:47 PM

280. So let's look at who the bully is.

 

You start off with calling the OP shitty. That's not really an intellectual assessment. It's just ridicule.

And then you call me an attack dog, "I see you attack dog anyone that dares to post"

And here you provide more ridicule, "Considering the amount of misspelled hysteria-ladden vitriol you spew"

I believe that when posters have to lower themselves to using ridicule and mockery, they are trying to bully their world view through. They have no good arguments and rely on ridicule.

Go bully someone else.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #280)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:47 AM

281. The fact that you chose to overlook my comments is on you, not me

You were so incensed that someone dared to criticize your pop idol Manny Goldstein that you immediately leapt into attack mode. More than one person in this thread has tried to educate Manny (and even you, to little avail) that his OP could be considered insensitive and even offensive to people of color. But all you see is "oh my GOD! Someone criticized Manny1! MUST DEFEND!one!1" Like I said, that is on you, not me.

I think we are truly past done here. Your lack of self-awareness and idolatry of mere posters on a web site is truly remarkable.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #281)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:14 AM

282. Go bully someone else. nm

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #190)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:36 AM

229. And people that make it their life's mission to disparage centrists and moderates should be the last

 

Now I understand where your ad hominem remarks are rooted.

What I don't understand is why did you enter in this discussion thread at all, being that the OP is clearly an analysis to which which you have an issue with. Weird.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #188)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:39 PM

208. You are aware you lost any ground when you used this phrase:

What I notice is that those of you that seem to attack -- right? Are you even paying attention to what is being said in this thread?

It's a little more intense than Manny's OP and I think a lot of Du'rs could learn from it.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #208)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:25 PM

260. The OP is expressing the feelings typical of those on the left that are unwilling to accept

 

the status-quo that is seeing the wealth gap widening more and more. We see the large unemployment and poverty. We see college graduates lucky to work part time at fast foods with the minimum wage stagnated for a decade. We see American children going to bed hungry while foodstamps are being cut as well as meals for seniors.

And yet there are those here that attack the OP and Manny. I would like to know why. They dont present any arguments, just attack. Why?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #260)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:47 PM

261. Manny has laid out his premise. I think you are missing the deeper message here.

Those aren't attacks on Manny, but rather it is placing light on the fact that this has sadly been happening to certain segments of our society for a long time.

I can understand the resentment. There are people of color (for a lack of a better way to say it) that are expressing resentment -- and it's understandable. The subthread starts here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4013864


Yes, as I said, middle-class white guys are finally experiencing what the rest of America always had. That's why they're *angry.*

If you're African American, your income was far far below the average income for whites back in the good old days. It actually got better, but it's still far far below the average income for whites. Nothing's changed about that. It was never better before, not in the "good old days."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/daily/graphics/raceWages_101804.html

And I've been talking about income inequality and corporate salaries since the mid 1980s. This didn't spring full blown from the head of Medusa.


I wish no ill will with you, as I enjoy reading your posts, but saying this:
What I notice is that those of you that seem to attack
Bold face mine as that just sprang out to me to be very dismissive of the discussion happening here about race and class disparities.

There are people in this thread making very valid points. That's not an attack on the left, or even Manny, that's pointing out the disparities we have on our own side.

People are saying things that are just as important as Manny's op and they are all intertwined. Dismissing them with something that comes dangerously close to you people comment doesn't help. It reinforces what people are saying.

Thanks for responding, rhett.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #261)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:10 PM

268. There is a misunderstanding. I am referring to those posts that provide

 

no arguments, no discussion, but only attack the OP and Manny. For example, " I'm reading this shitty OP" and "Another "Dems are the same as GOP" thread disguised as a populist rant" and "Entirely anti-Dem " OP.

These posters that clearly attack the OP and Manny are supporting the conservative status quo that sees no end to record profits and no end to the increases to poverty.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #268)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 09:23 PM

278. No. I disagree with this.

I honestly think you are unable to to see a bigger picture happening here.

What you are reading, and interpreting is completely different from what you interpret as 'posters that clearly attack the OP and Manny'

Manny is the OP, you know that. I get the feeling that you are very protective of him, and that's great, but as a member of this DU community, people have objections.

That's not an attack. That's debate. The people who you seem to take offense to are DU's who happen to be people of color. They disagree with him. And to be quite honest, I agree with them.

Manny can say anything he wants, but Manny should be strong enough to face a challenge to his opinion.







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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #261)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:47 PM

275. Great post and I sincerely appreciate your trying to understand and explain to those who need this

explained to them. I mean that seriously.

But as you can see, the conversation is not one that means anything to those who are determined to kick and rec these types of sentiments. They simply are INCAPABLE of stepping outside of their cushy bubbles of denial. I called this "a shitty OP" because as a black woman, I am (and please excuse my lack of eloquence right now) I am sick and GODDAMNED tired of white people on this board of a certain age pining openly and loudly for an era in which my grandparents, my mother, my aunts, uncles etc. were denied opportunity after opportunity regardless of how brilliant, qualified or hard working they were. I am SICK of it. And what is worse is the close-mindedness and defensiveness from certain quarters than give less than a shit how this makes people of color feel.

There are only a handful of black posters here. But there are several (me, Prosense and 1StrongBlackMan) that are in this thread and saying that we reject the premise of this OP. That we find it offensive. There may be other black posters that love this OP, but there are at least a few of us that are saying we have problems with it and have clearly articulated WHY we have problems with it. And all the person you are trying (very kindly) to educate can see is that someone dared to call this OP and "shitty" without even bothering to read WHY it was called that. You also have others high-fiving the OP after they see how it has upset black posters (one poster downthread said that they knew "Manny was on the right track" when they saw how upset I was. But considering this same poster had a SPECTACULAR Meta Fail thread last year where she attempted to speak about bigotry but did absolutely nothing but reveal her own massive shortcomings in this area, I guess it's not all that surprising).

To be blunt, THIS is the kind of shit that has led a mass exodus of black posters from this web site and there have never been many to begin with. DU is known for being a haven for the less than racially sophisticated (to put it kindly) but to some, the most important thing is to PROTECT MANNY!!! Most likely because it is far, far easier than checking their own privilege and attitudes and listening to how others see an issue.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #275)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:04 PM

279. I wish my point was understood by more than you.

I truly get what you, Pro and 1StrongBlackMan are saying. (and these 3 are not alone in this thread, imo)

I got the message early on, and it made sense to me.

Total sense.

That's not an attack -- it's a clarification about what's happening. I learned this stuff in real life. I saw it in real time.

Thanks, Number23.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:46 PM

162. The whingeing of the overprivileged is a sound that can be heard for miles. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #162)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:59 PM

182. Ain't that the truth. And the whining of the overprivileged left is practically indistinguishable

from their righty counterparts. A bunch of noise saying nothing and doing nothing but pushing people (especially people of color) even further away.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #182)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:29 PM

216. How much is the minimum wage where you live? n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #216)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:37 PM

217. Didn't someone else already answer your pointless little question?

I'm pretty sure that you got an answer so the fact that you keep asking is as dumb as it is pointless. Did you ask the same thing when I was in the Middle East or South America? There are other posters in this thread that are EXTREMELY open about the fact that they live in other countries, by choice, not by career. Have you asked them your tired little questions too?

Why don't you quit trying your boring little gotcha game. You obviously have nothing to say about the millions of Americans IN America that were miserable during you and your buddies' Good Old Days so that means we don't have a thing to say to one another. I will be so glad when you come to grips with that.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #217)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:55 PM

219. Most of those other posters aren't telling Americans to shut the fuck up

While they reap the benefits of living somewhere the minimum wage is over twice what it is in the land of the free.











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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #219)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:44 AM

225. LOL Like I said, we don't have a damn thing to say to one another

If you get "shut the fuck up" out of my posts, oddly I have absolutely no problem with that. Try it.

And the day you or your ilk decide that I can't post or comment on things in the United States will be the day that I ask your opinion or care what you have to say. About ANYTHING. Which is to say it won't EVER be happening.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #225)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:52 AM

226. Bless your heart

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #226)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:19 AM

228. Oh, honey I have been blessed in so many ways. Which is why I have 1/100th the level of bitterness

jealousy, and cluelessness combined with that charming extra wide dash of xenophobia that afflicts you and your crew. Life is a beautiful gift. So glad that I can appreciate it.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #228)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:53 AM

232. Three hundred and twenty recs for an OP you described as "shitty"

And I'm the one who's bitter?


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #232)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:28 AM

235. LOL! You say that like it means ANYTHING at all. To ANYBODY

300 recs on DU! What an honor! Like this web site means that much or as if that's unique around here or something! I've seen much, MUCH stupider get many, MANY more recs.

When the only thing you can rustle up is "*sputter* this OP got 320 recs!1one" it's truly time to call it a night. You've got nothing and have had nothing from the start. But your needless hounding of me and others has surely opened some eyes. And yes, "bitter" (among many, many other and far worse descriptions) certainly comes to mind to describe your behavior. Good show.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #235)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:58 AM

240. your reactions are curiously over the top

 

chill dude, or call it a night.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #240)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:04 AM

242. Are you lonely or something? You keep replying to me... why?

I see your other posts haven't gotten much attention and I can certainly understand why after reading your responses (all I can say is... WOW. Truly) so you keep squatting in this thread chatting with yourself in the hopes that someone will engage you in conversation. Whoever that person is, it most definitely won't be me so you take good care of yourself, you hear?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #242)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:06 AM

243. oh, really? Like You for instance? LOL!

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #182)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:40 AM

230. define "Over Privileged Left" please.

 

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Response to 2banon (Reply #230)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 09:30 AM

254. Going to an Ivy. Which is why I don't whinge. nt

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #182)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:28 PM

270. Well...the two ends meet at "Damn You Obama!" and

 

both sides agree that the president has failed to live up to their ideals of what the first African American president of the United States should have been.

That both sides could have listened to Barack Obama through a brutal primary process and a 2008 election.... and still fundamentally misunderstood who he is as a person is a telling commentary on who they are and their commonality.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #162)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:54 PM

218. If you are suggesting Manny is 'overprivileged . . .

. . . because he attended an Ivy League school, then I assume you are prepared to say the same same about President Obama, since Columbia, too, is Ivy League.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:51 AM

18. Ha, I had you pegged as an Ivy Leaguer.

Not because I thought you were rich, mind you.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:58 AM

22. Because I'm an effete asswipe?

 

Or because I use words like "effete"?

It ain't because I look good in a blazer, that's for certain.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:15 AM

41. I always pictured you with a pipe.

 

And NOT one of these...

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #41)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:18 AM

44. Hmm...

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #44)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:50 AM

65. You need more slack Manny... n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #65)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:30 AM

101. And frop.

 

Lotsa frop.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:43 AM

59. Because you're just so wrong all the time.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:55 AM

19. Totally with you, Manny!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:59 AM

23. I love it, Bro.

So much truth.

Thanks again for never failing to lay it on the line and a personal note...

... thanks for your interest and words of encouragement when I needed it most, it got me thru some very dark times.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:00 AM

25. We need a REVOLUTION IN CONCIOUSNESS.

 

- First.

K&R

Why must we pay to live on our own planet?

The question may seem childish to some, but I want you all to really think about this. Why must we pay to live on our own planet?

Why did we make an economic system that is completely decoupled from the laws of nature, when we know that we live on a finite planet?

Why do we work for money that we then have to use to get access to resources we need, when the resources is already here?

And why do some people inherit land and claim it their private property, making other people pay or work for having access to their property, even when everybody is born on the same planet and there is more than enough room for everybody?

Again, why must we pay to live on our own planet?


TED Conversation- Mats Kaarbo ~ Bergen, Norway

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:07 AM

31. +1

 

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:09 AM

33. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - K & R !!!

 


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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:11 AM

36. How do we get people to wake the #%^* up?

 

Maybe a giant alarm clock.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #36)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:02 AM

77. Like with Pavlov? More conditioned response?

 

Naw, I don't think it'll be an alarm clock. It's not really an awakening, but more of an acknowledging. To stop telling ourselves the lies that make this mishmash we call ''reality'' possible.

- The answer to any question you ever wanted to know, can be found inside. Just ask.

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:13 AM

40. +10000000000

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:56 AM

74. +1

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:56 PM

179. BINGO. Unless you change the way money works, you change nothing. n/t

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Response to robertpaulsen (Reply #179)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:56 PM

191. Insert some famous quote about "give me the power to issue a nation's currency

and I care not who write its laws" here

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Response to BelgianMadCow (Reply #191)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:19 PM

200. I've heard that before.

The problem isn't just the way money is distributed, it's money itself. As long as money is produced through 1) fractional reserve banking 2) compound interest and 3) fiat currency, it matters not whether our economic system is capitalist or socialist; it's elitist: those on top get the graft, those on bottom get the shaft. Change the way money works, then there's a chance for economic justice.

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Response to robertpaulsen (Reply #200)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:10 PM

205. What money ideas do you like?

I'm not baiting you, just curious.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #205)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:25 PM

272. Technocracy as proposed by M. King Hubbert is an interesting idea.

I wrote a blog post on it a few years ago. I like the general principle behind it, but not being an economist I'm not sure about the practical application of it in a world of seven billion people. I'm always open to new ideas; BelgianMadCow's post below about Bernard Lietaer is quite interesting.

Bottom line, if we are truly civilized, we need to find ways to offset the destructive aspects of our own nature. We must find a way to eliminate the greed factor from money itself, so that we can have an economic infrastructure predicated on sustainable living for all. Our goal should be to replace a culture that values consumption with a culture that values conservation. I wish I had the answer how.

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Response to robertpaulsen (Reply #272)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:30 PM

285. Thanks.

I read your blog post but haven't had a chance to delve further (or look into Lietaer, either). But I've made a note of it, for when I have the time.

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Response to robertpaulsen (Reply #200)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:26 AM

246. Yes (X3). Are you familiar with the solutions Bernard Lietaer advocates?

He says we have a monoculture of fiat currency with the properties you mention, and that's inherently unstable, not to mention the rent-extraction property you pointed out. He argues for complementary currencies, which for example can have properties like: issued without interest, by the public, and become worthless when left unused for a longer time. So you can design money to have completely opposite goals to those it has now. There are many (but not nearly enough) examples already, but you won't hear those in the mainstream press. He's also shown that these currencies have a countercyclical effect.

Money is an agreement. The advantage is, when the agreement doesn't work, we can change it. I believe this is at the very core of why OWS was brutally put down.

Here's a TED talk from him,



and his website is here. I still need to read one of his books.

PS: are you the roberpaulsen that posted so much in Plamegate times? My memory isn't what it used to be.

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Response to BelgianMadCow (Reply #246)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:14 PM

271. I was not familiar with Lietaer. I find his ideas intriguing!

That these type of solutions have been effective in Uruguay is promising. Perhaps this is the kind of re-localization in coordination with powering down and permaculture that might be a great transitional step toward the type of civilization envisioned by Jacque Fresco. Thank you very much for the link; I'll try looking up more stuff on youtube.

Yes, I am that same guy from the Plamegate times! Recently, I wrote a blog post commemorating everyone who worked together contributing toward trying to bring the truth to light.

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Response to robertpaulsen (Reply #271)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:36 PM

273. Glad you liked it. Local currency can connect unmet needs with unused resources

Say, care needs being met by unemployed people & foreclosed homes, using local currency only designed to benefit the community, and without the interest trap. Surely we have a lot of unmet needs, and a lot of unused capacity (in all terms - human labor, inventivity, common spaces, abandoned or relocating factories, etc)

I find it so interesting I downloaded a "guide to implementation of local currencies", but first I'm going to join LETS (local exchange & trading system) because the same solidarity underlies it, and take it from there.

Ooh yes the Plame threads. Truly DU's finest hour (though I hope more follow). But one has to think the entire discussion would be relegated to the Creative Specualtion dungeon, sadly. Thanks for the flashback, it was good reading your blogpost.

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Response to BelgianMadCow (Reply #191)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:31 PM

206. ''Insert some famous quote....''

 

''There are none so blind as those who cannot see.''

- How about that quote? Will it do?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:12 AM

37. Huge, huge, huge, huge, huge K&R.

And, oh, the corporate mouthpieces do NOT like this one.

Thank you, Manny.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:39 AM

54. I'm right there with ya Manny.

One could also blame the lack of educational funding and initiatives that used to support proper and equal education (and devoted teachers as a bonus) being leveled by the end of the 70's. It's been a dark road in education that lasts to this day.

We can't have an educated populace that asks questions can we? Makes it that much harder to rule.

And the greed for money and power is the same as it ever was. But this time it's threatening civilization and the planet as we know it.

Still no plan to turn that around, just more of the same, That's why I'm angry as well.

"We need change, and we need it fast." Exactly, that's why I want Warren not Hillary. Why I want bolder left leaning candidates. No more "fence riders" or "moderates" or centrists, and the list goes on and on.



-p

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Response to Phlem (Reply #54)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:08 AM

126. Don't know if you saw this essay, but ...

... you may like what it has to say. The "soul" of the Democratic Party is shifting to the left. That bodes well for all of us.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115509/elizabeth-warren-hillary-clintons-nightmare

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #126)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:27 PM

220. Thank you Laelth

That was a great read. I appreciate it very much. From the club of "I can chew gum and walk at the same time and still look out to 2016" thank you. People get hammered hear for looking out so far instead of the current elections (2013, 2014), but there are a faction here who can deal with the mental gymnastics. Voted in 2013 and will vote in 2014 and will still vote in 2016 and so on and so forth.

Of course there are pluses and minuses but still, all one needs to do is ask, "which one is going to work harder for me? Hillary or Warren?"

I know I've made the choice my self.



-p

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Response to Phlem (Reply #220)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:46 AM

249. Glad you enjoyed it.

I have seen the threads to which you refer--those that encourage us to keep our eyes on the 2014 prize, and I tend to ignore them, not because they're wrong, but because those of us who might like to recruit a liberal to run in the 2016 race need to be vocal about it now.

Cheers!

-Laelth

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:43 AM

58. K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:44 AM

60. K&R....

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:49 AM

64. Angry... K & R !!!

 




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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:09 AM

80. I read that Hillary thinks there's not enough "unity" in DC. She is a reason why we're at this bad

 

place. Out of touch, uncaring, and untrustworthy of being on our side, these so-called "New Democrats" keep chasing the bi-partisan rainbow in hopes of appeasing the unappeasable (the increasingly unhinged GOP). These "Third Way Democrats" always seem to let the GOP set the parameters, goalposts, definitions, and debates. These "Blue Dog Democrats" usually find themselves on the defensive, triangulating their way to the new "center" as defined by the GOP. And we keep electing these same toads of the 1% and expect different results? That's insanity! So that's why we're at this bad place. Phony "Democrats" willingly capitulating to their real constituents, the 1%, who will eventually tire of us.

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #80)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:11 AM

128. +1. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:37 AM

81. Great post MannyG.

I work for a man who inherited his fortune/company and he is a member the number 3 on your list. He is very, very selfish in all aspects of his life. He fires and hires at will and has given no one a raise for 3 years except for himself and the executive officers one who is his wife.

I read through the posts and yes we are better off than we were, but we are losing ground rapidly and the 1% is getting richer and the gap is widening. Apparently we never learned from what happened during the "Golden Age", because we are repeating it.

Good luck to your friend MannyG - I hope everything works out well for him.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:41 AM

82. Hey Manny if you want to view something inspiring and maddening at the same time, watch the video

on this link by cali.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024011417

A state senator quoted by the young girl in her speech stated that having pre-registration for voting at the age of 16 in school which would result in them being able to vote at 18 was "too confusing," (never mind that you can drive a car at 16) and the governor claims to have never read the bill that he signed.

The girl was very sharp especially for being only 12 years old but you have to wonder about the moral bankruptcy of the that state senator and governor.

Thanks for the thread, MannyGoldstein.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:43 AM

83. I'm in GROUP 1, and I've observed the same thing about my college pals.

Three categories, and the proportions I see them occurring in:

a) Unemployed or underemployed. Can't afford a house, can barely make rent or groceries, borrowing or begging money from relatives, asking for extensions on debts...about 20% of us.

b) Barely getting by on average wages. Barely able to keep up with a mortgage, treading water, making no headway. Income matches expenses. No chance of savings or investment or retirement...about 75% of us.

c) Fabulously wealthy. Either inherited money, or got in on one of the Tech Booms at just the right time. About 5% of us.

That top 5% LOVE the tax system the way it is. Don't worry about medical expenses, don't worry about their kids being in substandard schools, or having to live in substandard neighborhoods. Those 5% actively LOVE the system the way it is, and wan't to move FARTHER in the same direction. Lower, flatter taxes, less govt. regulation, smaller govt.

The 20% who are struggling obviously HATE the system the way it is, and would love to change it.

But it's the 75% in category b that concern me. I find they're mostly motivated by FEAR that changing the system might actually make it WORSE for them. Most are like that, and are, hence, vulnerable to the stupid 'politics of resentment' that conservative politicians are always peddling. "You're in bad shape? Blame it on the illegal aliens stealing your job, and the lazy blacks sucking up all your tax money in gubmint handouts.... Vote for us, and we'll put a STOP to all that." Meanwhile, a few are smart enough to realize that changing the status quo COULDN'T POSSIBLY make things WORSE. ANYTHING would be an improvement.

So, that's why conservative politicians have been fighting so hard to prevent Obama in particular, and Democrats in general from being able to get ANYTHING done. They know that we're dealing with a middle class that KNOWS the current system is a failure; but many of them are simply scared that any change would make it WORSE. When in fact, any change would make it BETTER. Therefore, just stop any change from taking place, by blocking any change to the status quo...and you're guaranteed to stay in power, as long as the average american is paralyzed by fear.

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #83)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:15 AM

130. Excellent analysis. +1. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #83)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:34 AM

136. I largely agree with your analysis; but ...

 

would re-frame the 75% as those that actually WANT the system to stay the same because they/we are just one brilliant idea ... one lottery ticket ... one just being discovered for the genius that we are, away from benefitting from the system as it currently exists ... just like the American Dream myth has been taught to working classers.

Ironically, this myth has far less fidelity among people of color and, to a lesser extent, women ... because our life experience has always given lie to the myth.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #136)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:38 PM

207. I agree to a point. I think that powered most of the destruction during the 80s and 90s.

The fact that the working class bought into the American Myth about mollycoddling the rich because they too would be rich someday.

Today, I think that myth has changed form (and demographics) a little. I think the young, libertarian types are definitely being held in the spell of the "I don't want no stupid government taking half my money away when my new fusion game of Facebook/Warcraft hits it big time, and I become the next Mark Zuckerberg! Fuck that!"

But I think, by the time you hit 40, and you're drowning in a mortgage, a family, and three part time jobs; you've pretty much given up on that illusion.

So, personally, I think that while the idealistic youth may still be spellbound, the middle aged middle class and working classes are definitely ready for a "what the hell have we got to lose?" change of course.

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #207)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:21 PM

213. I would agree ...

 

but you come across to many middle-aged working class folks that living the "Joe the Plumber" fantasy.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:19 AM

84. hard for me to believe all those ivy leaguers

are just scraping by.

Unless they are doing it like my brother. My brother and his wife make enough money to be in the top 25%, as far as I know, but he says he is underwater - spending more than he makes every month.

But is that because he does not make enough money, or because his family decides to spend too much? He bought each of his kids a nicer car than the one I own. They also had two year scholarships (to a low budget college) but turned them down to spend more money and join fraternities. Buying a house some six years ago, he probably spent $60,000 more than he needed to.

If he is just scraping by, it is not so much because of the 1% as it is about his own consumption choices.

Not sure how true that is of others though. Myself I am doing fairly well money wise, at least $32,000 is enough for me. The trouble is that I hate my job. So I am looking forward to retiring in 3 years, 4 months and 20 days, and then trying to scrape by on $400 a month. Or hopefully a little more than that. I need to get a report from my pension fund.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:33 AM

112. I think you're on to something there...

I make half as much as I did a couple of years ago, but I bought less house than 'they' told me I could afford (before the bubble). We always buy vehicles that we can afford (we can tell that we can afford them by our bank balance). So we've never had car payments.

I'm luckier than a lot of people, but a lot of people would benefit if they tried a little harder to live within their means. I got laid off and things were pretty tight while I searched for work, but if we hadn't been frugal, we'd have lost it all.

I don't want anyone to suffer, and I hate to see anyone go without food, but there's a difference between driving a vehicle thats ten years old and suffering. IMHO.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #112)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:47 AM

139. my cars are 20 and 22 years old

I mostly drive my 3 year old and ten year old bicycles.

I got the 22 year old car from my dad when he bought a new one.

Yeah, the realtor told me I could afford a $70,000 house on $24,000 salary. I shopped around until I found one for $35,000. That was nice too when I lost my job four months into my house payments.

Although, ironically enough, if too many people lived within their means, it would probably hurt the larger economy. I worked at a satellite dish factory and at a pudding factory. I needed people to buy those dishes and expensive snacks to keep me employed.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #139)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:08 PM

143. I used to ride a bike everywhere I went...

I'd still do it, if the local infrastructure was set up to accommodate bicycle and pedestrian traffic.

I don't agree with your assertion about 'people living within their means hurting the greater economy'. I think if people looked at how much more they pay for interest and insurance on the two most expensive items in their life (houses and cars) - the only sectors that would be damaged would be the banking and insurance industries (and car dealerships). That, and all these retirement Ponzi schemes.

Everyone would have enough left over for plenty of other consumer goods. Of course not many people can buy their home out of savings, but over the years my wife and I have bought houses for $3800 which we lived in for 2 years and then sold for $10,000 we bought a house for $12,000 which we lived in for 2 years and sold for what we paid for it. A house for $14,500 which we lived in for 3 years and sold for a little bit of a loss. We had another house that we bought for $3500 and one we paid $12,000 for.

Of course you can't buy real estate like that without some ability to work on the plumbing and electrical, but I've learned as I go. I think that's what's missing is that there isn't the 'repair mentality' that there used to be. If we had more people geared toward restoring and repairing - there would be more money in neighborhoods and small communities, but in just rambling now.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:22 AM

85. you never negotiate with your betrayer where in the back to be stabbed.

you to turn to face them and fight back, relentlessly.

basic survival lesson.

third-way, centrist pragmatism with such villains is an attempt to negotiate the terms of your own death.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:45 AM

87. 100% Agreed!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:48 AM

88. I'm with you Manny and in the same boat

...with a more than a few of my educated, experienced friends.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:58 AM

90. "Where seldom is heard a discouraging word

And the skies are not cloudy all day."

Isn't it wonderful, Manny?

Manny?

FWIW, I kinda doubt that the balance will tip very much toward the 99% as long as big money rules and politicians: 1) are seduced by it; 2) are intimidated by the threat of it being used against them; and 3) need tons of it just to participate. Add to that the widespread voter suppression enabled by the Supreme Court and there could be a lot more darkness ahead.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:13 AM

91. Another great post.

It echoes the feelings of many people, whether they are willing to admit it or not.

While I shudder to think what the rethugs want to do to the country, the rubber backbone of the democrats isn't doing us much good either.

All of the little cuts to so many programs, to appease the right, that people need just to survive day-to-day isn't going forward.

Death by a thousand cuts is still death.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:51 AM

92. Another "Dems are the same as GOP" thread disguised as a populist rant

 

Congratulations, Manny.

You have most of DU fooled.


If you were a lounge singer, you'd have dozens of panties tossed up on stage after this number.

Truly impressed.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #92)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:33 AM

135. +1

Entirely anti-Dem (using alleged support of long gone FDR as a dodge).

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Response to treestar (Reply #135)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:04 PM

266. What no counter argument? Just snark? If you support the conservative status quo

 

speak up.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #92)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:39 PM

150. -1

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #150)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:33 PM

184. -2

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #92)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:01 PM

203. +1

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #92)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:00 PM

265. Is that all you've got? Snark? If you disagree, provide an argument. nm

 

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #92)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:38 PM

286. awwwww.... try harder

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:16 AM

93. Great post (again) Manny, but perhaps the best comes from your detractors ....

 

... who post such crap and drivel as to wholly undermine their own lame positions.

Every word you wrote is on target. Thanks again for standing tall.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #93)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:30 PM

166. They have made themselves so obvious in this thread.

This is not only one of the very best OPs ever posted to DU,
but the blubbering and lame personal attacks by the defenders of the indefensible has highlighted their lameness.



[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font]
[/center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center]
[/font]


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #166)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:54 AM

233. Completely Agree bvar22

 

I'll repeat myself, this is one of the best discussions I've seen in public fora in a while, especially on DU. Except for a few nasty/psychotic responses, largely very intelligent and thought provoking. Manny in particular has a style that I appreciate and delight in reading.

He ought to have his own blog, wonder if he does?

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Response to Scuba (Reply #93)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:45 PM

169. Agreed.

Hey I learned something new. Hiding nasty insults in edits. Classy stuff. But totally par for the course. "Drivel" is spot on.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:21 AM

94. Kicked and Recommended.

Well done, Manny.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:57 AM

95. They "borrowed" the money

they printed the money, they kept the money (mostly), and now they want us to make the payments.

Compare the IOUs in the trust fund and the increase in the "national debt" to the amount of increased wealth of the 1%. The numbers are strikingly similar (many trillions increase for each, and at roughly the same time).

We know where the money went. We should also have learned the obvious, rich people get rich by finding money and then keeping it. There is no trickle down because that is the entire point of having money. When you have real money, you hire professionals to create "trickle up", and if you ever notice "trickle down" happening, you fire them and hire another who promises better results.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:06 AM

96. rec

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:10 AM

97. Manny, I think this is one of your best posts. Thanks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:23 AM

98. du rec.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:52 AM

99. "The ship's going down, baby" --

That's for sure. I blame capitalism.

If y'all want to save it the answer is simple. From roughly 1930-80 we had something called tax and regulation - and they really did it. They taxed high earners and companies and they broke up monopolies (anyone remember Ma Bell). We had manufacturing jobs (this was pre-NAFTA) and folks were able to at least make what their parents did or even better themselves. The capital gains tax was equal to any other earnings and taxed the same - this is important and should be reinstated (it has been cut by every administration since 1980 AFAIK).

So, that is a model that had some success until the very wealthy decided they were sick of it. Personally I don't really want to save the system, but for folks who want to do it that's your answer.

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Response to TBF (Reply #99)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:50 AM

140. I'm glad that somebody pointed this out...

Because that is the solution. Unfortunately the right-wing media has been giving us a different history lesson and apparently our educators are either unaware that things were that way during the greatest economic expansion in the history of the world, or don't believe that it's important enough to pass on.

I'm not an advocate of raising the minimum wage as a first step. I believe that if we put taxes back to where they were in the 50's (adjusted for inflation). Employers would pay people entering the job market more. If we don't fix the tax inequity - I don't think we'd get the desired result from raising minimum wage.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #140)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:19 PM

146. If we could adjust both taxes and minimum

wage (adjusted for inflation as you note) I bet we could see some pretty rapid results. My husband and I technically are "self-employed" for tax purposes as partners in a firm. We are actually worse off than when he was an employee. I see multi-national corporations getting myriad write-offs, their low-income employees being subsidized with things like food stamps (which we pay for) because they don't even get a living wage, and small businesses being squeezed in the middle. Something's gotta give if we keep letting the uber-wealthy get away with this.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:52 AM

103. You sound exactly like my hyper-paranoid office-mate.

And every other stereotypical old coot I've ever spoken to. It gets real boring, real fast.

Change is happening and you can't even begin to see it, probably because you're constantly angry.

Life is pain Manny, constant anger just makes it worse.

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Response to tridim (Reply #103)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:36 AM

113. You're correct, the 99% is losing economic ground, that's definitely change n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #113)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:09 PM

155. Absolutely!

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Response to tridim (Reply #103)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:57 PM

164. Change is happening?


US Wealthy Have Biggest Piece of Pie Ever Recorded
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/11-6

Rates of unemployment for families earning less than $20,000 - have topped 21 percent
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_JOBS_GAP_RICH_AND_POOR?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-16-08-11-23


Gallop: 20.4% of Americans now “going hungry”.
http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/12/20460846-1-in-5-americans-struggling-to-put-food-on-the-table?lite

Study: "Trade" Deal Would Mean a Pay Cut for 90% of U.S. Workers
http://citizen.typepad.com/eyesontrade/2013/09/the-verdict-is-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership-tpp-a-sweeping-free-trade-deal-under-negotiation-with-11-pacific-rim-coun.html

Obama Appoints Bain Capital Consultant Jeff Ziets to Top Post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662209

Obama selects former Monsanto lobbyist to be his TPP chief agriculture negotiator
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662210

The Totally Unfair And Bitterly Uneven 'Recovery,' In 12 Charts – HuffPo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662029

Wall Street will get away with massive wave of criminality of 2008 - Statute of Limitations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022516719

Income gap widest ever: 95 Percent of Recovery Income Gains Have Gone to the Top 1 Percent
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/09/10/one_percent_recovery_95_percent_of_gains_have_gone_to_the_top_one_percent.html


Older Workers:.Set Back by Recession, and Shut Out of Rebound
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/booming/for-laid-off-older-workers-age-bias-is-pervasive.html?smid=tw-share&_r=3&

40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage
http://seeingtheforest.com/40-of-americans-now-make-less-than-1968-minimum-wage/


Daily CEO Pay Now Exceeds the Average Worker's Annual Salary –
http://thecontributor.com/daily-ceo-pay-now-exceeds-us-workers-annual-salary


76% of Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/24/pf/emergency-savings/index.html


New Rule (Passed by Congress and signed by President Obama) signals Kiss of Death for Pensions
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100694955


Corporate Profits Have Grown By 171 Percent Under Obama -- Highest Rate Since 1900
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/corporate-profits-have-grown-171-percent-under-obama-highest-rate-1900

Wealthy win lion's share of major tax breaks
http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013/05/29/wealthy-win-lion-share-major-tax-breaks/Ua0UyYle21EUXub7g1suCI/story.html

Half of America is in poverty, and its creeping toward 75%
http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0

Wealth gap widens as labor's share of income falls
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wealth-gap-widens-labors-share-income-falls-1B6097385



THIS kind of "change" does NOT happen by accident.
It is the result of carefully planned and implemented Economic Policy.
It requires careful preparation, marketing, buying the right politicians, message control, courts packed with Conservative Corporate Rights Judges, and the marginalization and suppression of any opposition.


This kind of "change" is also unsustainable,
and The RICH KNOW that,
They are hastily grabbing up everything of value still remaining in the hands of the Working Class, and pulling up the ladders, militarizing the local Police Forces,
and building a mammoth Security/Surveillance State.


You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their promises, or excuses.


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #164)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:39 AM

245. Excellent, devastating documentation - thanks

Even the well-off are imperiled by the swell-off!

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #164)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:05 AM

247. of course change is happening: Because Obama!

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Response to tridim (Reply #103)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:07 PM

267. Yes you support the "change is happening". The Corporation profits are on

 

the increase. Poverty is on the increase. People are losing jobs and retirements. That's change the conservatives can support.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:55 AM

104. Then spread the word, we fight for Publicly Funded Elections and Complete Campaign

Finance Reform (CCFR)!!! This is the only way to turn this around.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #104)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:00 AM

105. + 10000

Thank you for never letting go of this topic.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #105)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:13 AM

108. I do what I can. People from my generation will fare worse in retirement than before SS

was created. This cannot continue without a "correction." Otherwise, we will continue to be ruled by a cabal of the rich who will be able to shed all pretext and rule openly. Orwell couldn't have been closer to the truth!

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #104)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:41 PM

151. Oh sure. So how do WE choose who will be the candidates?

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #151)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:23 PM

159. I would find ones that will agree to pass CFR and Publicly Funded Elections. I did not say it

would be easy or would work, I am saying that it is necessary to turn the country around and have some semblance of representative democracy. The key is getting enough pressure in the form of public opinion and protesters to convince the politicians that they will not win, even with corporate money, so that they will toe the line. Right now it is enough to get the word out and get people to pledge to support the demand for CFR and PFE.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #104)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:43 PM

172. this is the only way

+1000000

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:01 AM

106. I get it.

It makes me sad every day. And it's one of the reasons we left the country. Well, that and Minnesota winters.

Ecuador certainly is not a utopia but also certainly not a "cyst on the anus of the world" as one of our posters called it.

A lot of the people here don't have much but they are full of life and family. It is a joy to be around them. And the land itself is indescribably beautiful. But my sadness about the US followed me down here.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:11 AM

107. You're not mad, Manny, you're paying attention. And you're right, change is needed and fast.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #107)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:36 PM

161. You just described my bumper sticker.

'If you're not OUTRAGED you're not paying attention'.

Manny's paying attention.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:13 AM

109. succinctly put!

 

couldn't have explained my anger better myself and I'm one in muck down here in the swamp. Thanks for lucidity in very perilous times.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:39 AM

114. Luck is the primary determinant.

I'll give you a k&r for that observation, alone. It confirms my own observations.

-Laelth

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:46 AM

118. Lost Causes...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:46 AM

119. Well said, Manny, & I'm with you 100%! K & R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:53 AM

124. Reaching up from the swampy economic ground....

to recommend this post. Thank you for giving a voice to our predicament.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:11 AM

129. Righteous rant. The cream of the Wall St crimminal minds have been graduating from those Ivy League

colleges in ever increasing numbers since "Greed is good." became the mantra. They are coddled, groomed and promised the riches of Babylon from an early age. They want those riches, one could say they are entitled to them, and with loveable Mitt, we saw the most public incarnation of that sense of entitlement.
Sadly for most of us, the world of Wall St is a different animal now. It is far less about invention & innovation and much more about derivatives and algorithms. Everything has already been tapped anyway. Most of the worlds natural resources have been exploited, Mitt Daddy and his buddies long ago figured out destroying companies to turn a fast buck and like the beaver trappers of old, they have been very fruitful.
The only thing really left is us. Just like the Walking Dead, entitled, cocaine fueled MBA's now have their eyes set directly on where on the money is.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:32 AM

134. So a sad story of one person means the whole country is going down?

Not so. We still have the New Deal programs and just added another one. The economy is recovering, if slowly, but it never fell as far as it did in the 1930s. Plenty of reasons to choose optimism.

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Response to treestar (Reply #134)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:19 PM

259. There are a lot of sad stories out there. Wall Street is recovering. The middle class isn't. n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:51 AM

141. You've written some great stuff, Manny

But this is your best. Thanks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:09 PM

144. The first thing we have to do is get people to wake the hell up

Then we need to change every member of Congress who isn't speaking up about this and attempting to do something about it. The playing field is NOT level in America. The top income brackets get all the breaks, and the middle and bottom rungs carry all the burden.

This. Must. Stop.

No matter how much we may like someone in Congress otherwise, if they're remaining silent on this abuse, they need to go.

We've got to get the secret money out of campaigns, we need publicly financed campaigns so the best people can run and be competitive. Term limits to reduce corruption and conflicts of interest. No more crazy people in Congress passing bills that the rest of us must live by. Transparency in government.

Government is supposed to represent the PEOPLE, and we have documents that state that very clearly. Corporations are NOT people, contrary to what some crazy Supreme Court Judges may think. Women do not give birth to corporations, they are not conceived by a man's sperm and a woman's egg, they do not breathe, think, eat, have a beating heart. They are NOT people.

Anyone paying attention should be angry.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:14 PM

145. THAT'S Why Hillary WON'T do!

Ms. TPP, status quo, war voting, would be "Ruler of Empire", will NOT bring any of the required changes you so eloquently stated.

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Response to bluedeathray (Reply #145)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:35 PM

149. Voting will not do either. You can't vote Goldman Sachs out of office.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #149)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:55 PM

153. Perhaps, but

It's the only peaceful tool we have. Protests have been brutalized.

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Response to bluedeathray (Reply #153)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:30 PM

262. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible....

..... make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:24 PM

147. You mad, bro?

No seriously, thanks for the rant. I'm awake now, and I haven't even had my second cup of coffee here on the west coast yet.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:33 PM

148. I'm sure that this can all be fixed if the right Dem is voted into office.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:02 PM

154. When DU posters ask "Why you are so angry, Manny?", it is a propaganda device

Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)

that is actually a personal attack, designed to plant the idea that you are an angry hysterical leftist in the subconscious of the gullible.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #154)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:10 PM

199. Exactly! n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:11 PM

156. K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:14 PM

157. If you want to know why we are losing

This op has some fine examples.

Manny said that this country has fallen from a much better place. True

Frazzled said that this country was not a good placed unless you were a White Guy. True

Manny overlooks the fact that for many, this never was the land of milk and honey. Frazzled overlooks the fact that as bad as America was, it was still head and shoulders better and safer than most of the world, at least until Reagan got into power. Neither of them makes this mistake out of malice, but simply because we are all limited by our life experiences, which, if this were a movie, would be improved by people honestly sharing life exerpeinces here at DU, more on this later.

1strongblackman says that it would have been nice if the White Guys realized things were NOT going all that well for everyone else, before they found out the powers that be planned to disposes of them all along. True.

Now if this were the wizard of oz, this is where everyone would see that the wizard behind the curtian is a snake oil salesman. They woudl then work together to see what is true, what is not, but much more impprtantly, how to make America's promise true FOR EVERYONE. Everyone would realize that,like or not, they are in the same boat, and will all have to work together as one, or fall separately, to paraphrase Ben franklin.

But no, here we are, fighting at each other's throats, because we know that the GOP enemies would not have the brainstems to even argue with. I understand that it is useless to argue with the apes and subhuman GOp that cannot even form a point, that have to have slime pumped into their spinal cord and other orifices by Faux News and Alec, but that is not a good excuse for playing games of "My angst is more serious the Yours" games thta are so common among the left. We are easy to divide, and thus, easy to topple.

And before the three people I mentioned think I mean this as a slight, I read all of you, and like all of you, and I say this because the last thing I need to hear is that because of nfighting, we end up in 2020 with the GOP bringing out the kettle will be ALL be boiled in, white, black, rioch, poor, hell, we know that the rest of the world will be in it as well.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:15 PM

158. One of the very BEST posts to DU ever.

Heartfelt, precise, and undeniable.
I'm angry too.

Thank You, Manny.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #158)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:02 PM

195. I am angry also. But as you can see from this thread, there are so-called "politically liberal"

 

posters that are happy with the status-quo to the point of disparaging Manny.

Sadly they know things are f-u but want to blame Manny. He dares to challenge their comfortable denial bubble.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #195)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:09 PM

204. The Bubble of Denial!


It isn't just for Republicans anymore!



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:36 PM

167. Damn. Right. n/t

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:55 PM

170. K&R...

 

my retirement pla is either to die on the job or take a Harley off the Grand Canyon while firing a flare into the gas tank. I am 45- Wall Street will kill SS by then, and my 401k plan is a crap shoot.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:40 PM

171. sounds like my story

except i am black and female, there was a time in my life when i thought things might STAY changed for the better. there was a time when i was more financially stable and saving up to buy a house. i sure as hell can say i was better off 10-15 years ago than i am now. and you know what: my parents were better off financially than i am. they grew up in segregation, but they both had pensions. i watched "Park Avenue..." yesterday, and like you: i am alarmed. we've turned an awful corner with people like the Koch brothers buying politicians to pass laws that benefit the 1%. i am unsure if this can be fixed by the corrupt system we have in place where both parties have the same fiscal masters, not to mention a corrupt SCOTUS.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:51 PM

177. We Need Middle Class People to Get It.

Critical thinking, what a concept.

We need to get big money out of the equation, in politics and media. Big media is huge, if we could get them to ask the tough questions and then follow up when the response is ridiculous. No more false equivalency.

The democratic party needs to become a true democratic party, it isn't right now. Too many of them are wholly owned subsidiaries of corporations too and that's a big problem.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:52 PM

185. I know who the enemy is, Manny.

 

So do many of us. If we were to mention who, IOHO's, these enemies are we would most likely be banned.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:07 PM

187. Although it is sad that so many that are well educated are just getting by,

it is important to realize that the reason that this nation is in the pickle it is in is precisely because people who had that degree didn't care one bit when the outsourcing began. So when the textile factories closed down in the South, or when the automobiles were no longer made in Detroit, (along with with all the other vestiges of that industry occurring everywhere from Akron Ohio to Richmond calif.) no one with that engineering degree cared one bit.

Back in the 1980's, I lived in Silicon Valley when the first wave of outsourcing occurred. And so many folks were all, "Well if you didn't get a college education, what can ya expect? Now if that schmuck who has been working in the textile factory had just gone to school and become an engineer like me, they wouldn't be crying in their beer right now."

By the late eighties, the same remarks were made about the people working in the steel mills, and the people building cars.

No one realized the importance of solidarity of each group of workers in one career with each group of workers inside another. At least, most people didn't "get it" until it was too late.

So the One Percent took the outsourcing one small step at a time. Without solidarity, America's middle class was about to go the route of the dodo bird. Finally in the early 1990's, the programmers and data entry folks started realizing that with the way computers could now operate, the people at the top didn't need an American who demands over $ 20 an hour when they can pay someone in India 82 cents for that same hour.

And then and only then did those same programmers and engineers realize that outsourcing is not a good things.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #187)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:58 PM

193. agreed

The fact is, Americans are easy to turn on other Americans, because, even before the US was a dreram in anyone's eye, the UK set people agauinst each other here. We were trained to think problems were nto solved unless you beat someone else.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:07 PM

197. Wow -- incredibly powerful!

I cannot recommend this OP highly enough! Thank you, Manny!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:38 PM

201. THIS is the reason why:

"We are being attacked, brutally attacked, and we refuse to fight back. Hell, most of us haven't even figured out who the enemy is."

I'm retired, reasonably comfortable. Just because the dog, while a sweet companion, doesn't really make for a good conversationalist, I took a job at a Very Large Retailer shortly ago.
Last time I did a job like this I was 18. Back then, min wage was 2.10. I remember that part timers worked 20 hours, full timers worked 40 hours. That was it. Over 40 was O/T, holiday work was double-time.
At this establishment, on our first day they introduced us to a list that was the list of people who'd worked overtime. You were NEVER supposed to get on that list.
The intro video at orientation featured a Very Long Segment on how Unions Are Very Very Bad For You.
Also, part time, I found out, is just under - of course - 30 hours a week. Didn't find out til I got my schedule for the third week I was there, as my first two weeks only had about 15 hours per week in them, and was amazed at the number of hours I'd be working.
Now, I figured I'd be doing 20 hours, enough to alleviate the boredom. 30 hours? That's full time to me. Told them so. Said I found it annoying. The Corporocrat to whom I was speaking (woman probably wasn't making more than 40k herself, if that, but you'd think by her manner she was pulling a hundred large per annum easy and was fresh off her yacht or something) looks at me and said "Annoying? You find a job you applied for annoying???"

Still there, figure I'll give myself a Xmas bonus by sticking it out til Jan or so. Then fahgeddaboudit.

I am amazed at what the working class puts up with. Now I know why the fast food companies have been getting large protests outside their places. It was nothing like this when I was young.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:08 PM

210. K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:27 PM

215. Any American...

... who doesn't make a million $ a year or who is not in a coma who is NOT angry is probably the kind of person that gives telemarketers their credit card number.

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Response to sendero (Reply #215)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:39 AM

256. amen.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:49 PM

222. Best Discussion on Class Analysis I've seen on DU yet.

 

Thank you Manny, nicely done. And Thanks to most of you engaged in a very healthy and important discussion, which is rarely seen or read in the public fora these days..

I'd like to see more of this here.. Perhaps, (just perhaps) real change might be actualized sooner rather than later...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:27 AM

248. kr

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 08:46 AM

251. I thought you were angry because McCain beat Obama?...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x761367

If you could reverse ONE election outcome, which would it be?

Of all the presidential elections since Watergate, if you could go back and reverse the outcome of just ONE of them (knowing that would have changed history and subsequent elections most likely would have featured different candidates debating very different issues, which election would you change and why?

1976: Carter d. Ford
1980: Reagan d. Carter
1984: Reagan d. Mondale
1988: Bush d. Dukakis
1992: Clinton d. Bush
1996: Clinton d. Dole
2000: Bush d(?). Gore
2004: Bush d. Kerry
2008: Obama d. McCain



Your reply:

16. 2008.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 08:18 PM by MannyGoldstein
In the prior elections, people got what they wanted, whether it was good or bad, perhaps with the exception of the stolen 2004 election (which was close, anyway). So, no matter who won, things would have generally gone the way they did. For example, Al Gore was an active participant in Clinton's development of the outsourced-torture "extraordinary rendition" program.

In 2008, people voted overwhelmingly for hope and change, but we got much other, for examples:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah

This is an enormous problem. We've had almost 20% real unemployment for years, and more shoveling of worker's cash to the wealthiest. So now the Democratic brand is badly damaged, and the people have returned even-crazier Republicans to office in a desperate attempt for actual, helpful change. It's like the poor souls who leaped from the Twin Towers on 9/11 to avoid the fire. Awful, awful choices.

Would McCain's policies be much different? I don't see how. In addition, at least we'd have a chance for bringing in people with Democratic ideals in 2010 and 2012 - 2010 was a disaster, and 2012 is unlikely to see a good outcome at the Presidential level.





Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #251)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 09:10 AM

252. Nope, I'm angry because Obama ran on a platform of Hope and Change,

 

and instead we got Nope and The Same.

Lies, lies, lies.

Dashed hopes and lowered standards of living for hundreds of millions of Americans. And those standards still drop by the day.

But life is better than ever for Jamie, Lloyd, and their accolytes. They staff the White House, write the laws, and no effort is spared to protect their cash - and to give them more, more, more!

While millions of children sleep in cars.

Can you believe the Pope doesn't want kids to have to sleep in cars?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #252)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 09:16 AM

253. You must have really been pissed when Obama beat Romney...




Everything you post should be viewed through the prism of 'Manny would have preferred McCain to Obama'. Everything.

That makes your schtick so much more clear.

Sid

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #252)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:15 AM

255. "Can you believe the Pope doesn't want kids to have to sleep in cars?"

Pope 2016?

Your entire comment is the most illuminating of the entire thread. You are actually pissed that Obama is President, and have been since 2008.

Nothing the man does is good enough for you. He managed to achieve expanding the U.S. safety net where others have failed for 100 years, and you are pining away for the Pope?

The President has numerous other achievements, but in your eyes the ills of the country are all laid at Obama's feet. He ruined America, the once "great" country.

"Dashed hopes and lowered standards of living for hundreds of millions of Americans. And those standards still drop by the day."

Shorter you: The country was destroyed when Obama was elected. We're doomed.

Too fucking funny!



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Response to ProSense (Reply #255)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:01 AM

257. OK, let's do the numbers.

 

Start with the social safety net. Perhaps you can list those things that Obama's responsible for that are helping Americans today.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #257)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:58 PM

264. OH, but Manny, its not the President cutting Head Start, Meals-on-Wheels, Food Stamps...

..and all the other "Safety Net Programs" that millions depend on.
NOBODY is cutting those programs.

[font size=3] it is The SEQUESTER[/font] that is cutting those programs,
and NOBODY is responsible.
NOBODY has to go home, face their voters, and say they cut these programs.
The SEQUESTER did it!!!

Now THAT is brilliant, 9th dimensional chess.
The Safety Net gets cut,
and NOBODY has to take responsibility!



Where did the idea for The Sequester originate?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/obamas-fanciful-claim-that-congress-proposed-the-sequester/2012/10/25/8651dc6a-1eed-11e2-ba31-3083ca97c314_blog.html

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #251)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:02 PM

277. And you gotta love how that post was made barely TWO YEARS into the President's tenure

But yeah, the OP was just so "disillusioned" by then.

Like I said, I have no idea what this person's end game is. I truly don't. He and his fans must be getting something out of all of the gaming around here but for the life of me, I have no idea what it could be.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:14 PM

269. Good rant Manny. I see you flushed out the conservative-Dems among us.

 

One thing that is often over looked when evaluating the state of the middle class is the huge multi-trillion dollar debt for infrastructure construction, maintenance and repair. That's a debt that cant be pushed off very long. And it will impact the middle class taxpayers.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:07 AM

283. kick. Stay angry. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 03:07 PM

284. Eugene Robinson: The US is Better Off Than You Think

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