Does anyone else feel that with our (b)administration's use of torture

[Blue Velvet]

rendition, and illegal wiretaps/surveillance, their intent isn’t to really “fight terra” at all, but rather is ultimately intended to instill fear and discourage dissent on the domestic front?

I mean, I’ve read some theories about why the administration is so dead set (apologies for the grim pun) on torture, even as most intelligence and military professionals agree that these abusive techniques produce patently unreliable information and are actually counterproductive in producing useful and actionable intelligence.

One theory is that the administration seeks to create an atmosphere of perpetual foreign resentment, leading to more of a threat, and thus more of a reason for the Bush regime to have to “protect” us as well as continue fighting (and/or securing military bases, awarding rebuilding contracts to Halliburton, looting the Treasury, and – oh yeah – “spreading freedumb”)).

In other words, torture – and the Abu Ghraib images that go with it – are intentionally creating and fueling the “perpetual war” scenario that the neo-cons need in order to continue with their power and resource grab.

Others suggest that torture, rendition, etc. are just a big power trip for these international (and domestic!) rogues and bullies.

And while I believe that both theories hold a good deal of weight, I still haven’t seen any discussion of this other ancillary byproduct of their torturing (and rendering and eavesdropping) ways – that being, again, the fact that it instills (and perhaps by design) fear, increased docility and more of an inclination towards servitude amongst We the People.

I know the increased prospects of my being “extraordinarily rendered” to Gitmo without a trial or a trail, based on “evidence” collected through illegal means certainly scares the crap out of me! And it’s just recently occurred to me that this might actually be the intended purpose (or at least AN intended purpose) for all the ridiculous and otherwise-ineffective abuses this administration is attempting to get away with.

So I wanna know a few things, I guess:

1) do any of you also feel like that might actually be an overt intention of the neo-con regime – “terrifying” the domestic population, as it were?
2) is it working? i.e. do you feel more afraid these days simply from being who you are and doing what you do, however innocent that may be? And lastly,
3) Has this discouraged you or encouraged you when it comes to speaking your mind and acting your heart, especially as regarding this oppressive regime?

Because for me, while the effects of these policies have definitely ratcheted up my personal “fear factor” as I live, breathe, think and move through our theoretically free country, I find for some reason I am also newly emboldened to speak out and decry the increasing injustice that I see happening all around me.

I guess the best example of this is that – though I’ve been a voracious DU reader since the 2004 election (the results of which just didn’t “feel right” to me – go figure!) – I have only now, in the face of all these newfound threats and worries and fears, decided to register and post and actually join the amazing chorus of voices at DU.

I guess part of me feels like I need to get in on this “free speech” thing while it’s still an accepted part of the Constitution (we still abide by that cruddy ol’ document, don’t we?). And, more importantly, I guess I feel like our collective speech is more important now than it has ever been, as our prospects of liberty are increasingly encroached upon.

So, in a funny way, maybe this awful administration’s own strategy is backfiring on them. And, if their policies of rendition and torture and domestic surveillance are indeed intended to quiet the masses and quell dissent at home through fear, perhaps they are actually only stirring up more dissent and raising more indignant voices at home. I hope so, anyway.

Well, sorry for the long-ass post (I guess I had a lot saved up over the years!), but I’m really interested to hear your feedback about all this, and how – if at all – these oppressive tactics by our government have affected you?

[lvx35]

1. Yes. I think this is a big part of why there is no peace movement

Even though the Iraq war is about as popular as Viet Nam, probably. There is a lot of intimidation and spooking going on. I have been aware of this since is really started rolling in 2002, due to things I saw done with activist groups. I would be on slashdot, playing guitar and doing other things right now if it weren't for it, though, so the effect it had on me was to make me more politically aware, and to really hate Bush. This effect is generally to be expected...When you treat people like enemies, they don't look at you kindly. This is what the Bush administration is learning in Iraq the hard way, and that's what they will learn with spying on the American people.

[Blue Velvet]

5. I agree completely - glad to see I'm not the only one who's responded

to all the fear-mongering in a way that's probably the exact opposite of the response they're hoping to achieve. And now that I think even more about the spooking aspect, I guess a part of me also feels like "Well, they know what I'm thinking and doing in private anyway - might as well speak out in public and join the movement!"

As for your comment: "When you treat people like enemies, they don't look at you kindly. This is what the Bush administration is learning in Iraq the hard way, and that's what they will learn with spying on the American people."

I say "Right on!" I think you are right about this, and I can't wait till the chickens come home to roost on these chickenhawks!

[lvx35]

20. Glad to hear from you too.

Its still true, so much later, that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. Honesty and speaking our minds are the best defense. Truth is light, and where there is light, darkness cannot be! :toast:

[Blue Velvet]

27. It's funny - you mentioned playing guitar and slashdot in your first reply

and I too play guitar and am a bit of a tech nerd. Anyway, your words above remind me of a lyric from an old song of mine:

"I wanna make my mark
And I don't know how
But it's only as dark
As the light will allow"

I don't know. Seemed relevant. OK - I guess I really need to go to sleep at this point. But thanks for the most-excellent discourse and I look forward to seein' ya around these parts in the future! :toast:

[bvar22]

7. There IS a PEACE Movement.

We put thousands in the streets regularly. Millions Worldwide.
Cindy Sheehan is a part of the Peace Movement.
Check the Du Activism here. Many of us are involved in the Peace Movement.
MoveOn.org, Democrats.com, Iraq Veterans for Peace, Progressive Democrats of America, ANSWER, and MANY more are all involved in the PEACE Movement. Come join us and add your voice!

On Topic:
I am frightened by this administration.
I am more careful about personal security, but it is also fear of what this government is capable of that emboldens my speaking out, and taking the extra steps to support protests and financially support candidates that oppose Corporate Fascism.



For the first time in my life, I now own a gun, and have applied for a concealed carry permit.
ANYONE who buys a gun for protection is frightened, though most won't admit it.

[lvx35]

11. Proud to be part of it!

And proud of everybody like you working with it. What I really meant to say is that there is a lot of working going on trying to keep the peace movement from finding the kind of mainstream acceptance it did in the 60s.

[Blue Velvet]

12. Absolutely there is! But I also think that the pervasive "atmosfear" can

make us feel as if we are more alone than we actually are, and stifle the voices of those we work with even if they may feel the exact same way.

Regardless, I am glad to have "moved on" (so to speak) from that place of silence and am happy to be joining the ranks of those in the movement you speak of!

And, interestingly enough, though I consider myself to be nonviolent to the nth degree (and even once helped teach a college course called "Nonviolence and the Ethics of Social Action"), today was the first day that I started looking online at the possibility of gun ownership. So I'm definitely afraid, too (but not afraid to admit it!), though we seem to both feel that this fear can be a positive thing in that it apparently is also calling so many people to take action.

[bvar22]

14. I understand.

The Peace Movement won't be (and isn't)televised on the Corporate Owned TV. We will need to do it without TV.
Thank GOD (and Al Gore) for the Net.

On Edit:
Welcome to DU!!:party:

I am confronted by my own hypocrisy.
I AM a PEACE activist who owns a gun.
Buddah, the Deli Lhama, MLK, and Ghandi would cry!

[lvx35]

23. Gandhi and guns

You said you are a hypocrite, and I am not so sure. I am a huge fan of Gandhi and studied him a great deal. As I understand his philosophy, gun ownership, or willing to fight to defend your family is higher than cowardice. Gandhi said that the would rather see the Indian people rise up with arms against the British empire than be controlled by fear of them, but he would rather see them rise up without arms than with arms. However, the principles are the same. GAndhi used the term "general" to describe himself because he thought of himself as a military leader...The unifiying principle between violent and non-violent resistance is of course courage. a satyagraha (conj?) will refuse to be manipulated with a gun pointed at his head without shooting, a military man will refuse but try to shoot, a coward will not refuse.

[Blue Velvet]

26. Wow, I am totally finding a like-minded crowd in this first thread o mine!

How lucky am I?! As I wrote above, I once was the TA in a college course called "Nonviolence and the Ethics of Social Action" in which we studied all of the revolutions which were enacted without weaponry - Gandhi, MLK, Ceasar Chavez, etc. And you absolutely nailed it - Gandhi always said it took more courage to respond with nonviolence and it did to take up arms, but he also said any action/resistance - even if violent - is better than none at all.

[lvx35]

28. Sounds like we have a lot in common.

Send me a PM anytime!

[w13rd0]

2. Their use of torture, spying...

...i.e. gestapo tactics isn't to gain useful intelligence from those they do catch as much as it is to terrorize those they don't. It's terrorism. Terrorism of dissidents, of Arabs and Muslims, all those that would not bow to Bush's paymasters.

[NanceGreggs]

3. This is an excellent post ...

... and truly thought-provoking.

Yes, I think it's all about instilling fear - one wonders if the Abu Ghraib photos were taken because they were MEANT to be disseminated througout the Middle East, as a warning to all who might dissent or be encouraged to fight the great Bushco machine.

Perhaps the Admin figured that if the photos found their way into the States (which obviously they did), they could PR their way through it. Why not? Their sheeple supporters have accepted everything else they've done.

Of course, the country was outraged - but it's not the first time this Admin has miscalculated the reaction of the citizenry (a la the Schiavo case). We understand from those who have seen the 'other' Abu Ghraib photos, the ones they're fighting tooth-and-nail to keep under wraps, that they involve torture of women and children -- that, of course, will not be taken to very kindly by the masses here at home.

Everything this Admin has done has been based on keeping people afraid -- constant references to 9/11, terror alerts, anthrax in the mail, etc. -- and very unfortunately, it's worked. Even the deficit and the outsourcing of American jobs has been a way of working fear into the American psyche -- do as your told, don't ask for fair wages, don't join unions, or we'll simply ship your job overseas.

I've even noticed the 'fear factor' finding its way into TV ads; a perfect example is the cosmetic (don't remember the product) ad, where a woman wakes up from a nightmare about plastic surgery gone wrong. She then awakes to be assured by the on-air voice-over that she can achieve a 'more youthful appearance' with their product, instead of facing the 'fear and danger' of surgery. Seems a silly point, but fear has seemingly been adopted by everyone looking to sell something to the American public these days.

Do I feel more afraid these days? Not really. I am not afraid that Al Qeada is looking to 'get me'; I am not afraid that there's a terrorist on every street corner. I don't fear the things BushCo wants me to fear.

But I do fear that my beloved country, as it was, is a thing of the past. Not because things will not eventually be righted (I believe they will), but because the harm this Administration has done to our economy, our educational system, our environment, and our standing in the world will never, ever truly be undone. We will come back, and we will come back strong -- but we'll never again be the beacon of democracy we have been for more than two hundred years.

Sad to think that one group of corrupt, greedy bastards could destroy so fine a nation.

So now it's my turn to apologize for the long post - but as I said, your discussion opener was very thought-provoking indeed.

[Blue Velvet]

6. Thanks for your reply and your excellent thoughts!

It's funny - when put in the context of all the other examples you rightly cite as proof of this administrations need to alchemize almost EVERYTHING into a fearful form, I'm surprised it took me THIS long to put two and two (or, more aptly, two thousand and two) together and see how torture fits so perfectly into the Fright Wing's agenda!

And I'm glad to hear that the administrations terrorizing hasn't made you afraid - well, at least not afraid of what they WANT you to be afraid of anyway. And I hope that you can continue to turn your fear of what's happening to this country into more of the same kinds of constructive critiques and actions as you express above!

I mean, Bush is always yammering on about "emboldening the enemy" - but, ironically enough, by seeming to make the American people "the enemy" I think he is actually emboldening us as well!

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts - they've really helped to illuminate and clarify my own.

[NanceGreggs]

8. Right back at ya!

As for your question on whether the current state of affairs has encouraged me to be more outspoken, the answer is a resounding YES!

I have had ten articles (all rabidly anti-Bush) published here on the DU 'Articles' page, the latest being my personal DEMAND for Georgie's resingation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/12/21_excuses.html

And I just noticed you're a newcomer to DU -- so let me give you a great big :hi: welcome -- you're a GREAT addition to the site!!!!

[Blue Velvet]

15. Hey - thanks for the warm welcome!

And that's a terrific article - I really like the clarity of your writing:

"Now is the time for all good men to come not to the aid of their party, but to the aid of their country... We stand on the brink of disaster, and it only takes a few good men and women to save our country from faltering at this moment in our history. Will we choose to continue as a democracy, or will we simply stand idly by and watch one single arrogant man make a mockery of everything we have stood for over the last two centuries? This is the decision we, as a nation, face; this is the decision that you, as our electorate, must act upon."

Great stuff - I definitely look forward to reading more of your articles in the future!

[NanceGreggs]

21. Thanks, Blue Velvet, for the compliments ...

You can find my other articles in the 'Articles Archives' section here on DU - and I look forward to seeing more of YOUR excellent writing in print here, as well!

It is now almost 3 a.m. (my time), and I should have been asleep hours ago -- so I will bid you, and everyone else here, adieu!

Thanks again to everyone participating in this thread tonight - it was just too interesting to tear myself away from!

Goodnight, all ...

[Blue Velvet]

25. Yeah, I'm an East Coaster too so I should be getting some shuteye myself

Although I was at home all day with a little digestive distress and slept through some of it, so I do have somewhat of an advantage in that respect, I suppose.

Anyway, goodnight for now!

[Crunchy Frog]

4. Glad you finally came out of lurkdom.

And please don't apologize for the long-ass post. I think it's excellent and thought provoking.

I do think that the neocons are all about terrorizing the American people in order to maintain power, and I think they have been rather brazen about it. They've built an entire edifice of fear based on the whole WOT business, and when they sense that people are getting a little burned out on that, they turn to bird flu for awhile.

As far as my own fear issues go, I really freaked when the invasion of Iraq first happened, and then freaked even more when I started lurking on DU and learning about PNAC and a bunch of stuff that I had never even heard of. I've sort of moved beyond that, but it's a kind of resignation on my part, or acceptance that I'm probably going to end up living under fascism, and I still have to try to go on living my life. More kind of a desensitization really.

I never really thought of the torture business specifically as being about terrorizing the American people, but now that you bring it up, I think it does make some sense.

One of the thoughts that I've been toying with lately is the possibility that all the fuck ups in Iraq have been deliberate, rather than simply the product of incompetence and stupidity. I wonder if the intent all along was to destabilize the Middle East, create a new hotbed of terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, and ultimately to bring about a state of perpetual war that would keep the nation in a continous state of fear/patriotic fervor, and keep them in power indefinitely.

I think their policies are, and will continue to backfire on them. They're too arrogant, and arrogance always leads to stupidity and overreaching. Maybe that's another reason why I'm no longer so afraid by the situation in this country.

Anyway, I appologize for this post being somewhat disjointed and rambling. Your post has kind of triggered a stream of conciousness thing in me.

[Blue Velvet]

9. OK - I hereby retract my apology!

I'm glad you found my post more thought-provoking than long-winded, though!

And I agree with your thoughts regarding the possibly deliberate fuck ups in Iraq - in fact, I'll see your "possibly" and raise you a "probably"! As you say, it is only a state of perpetual war and fear/fervor that would ever give them a chance of holding onto their power indefinitely.

But, more importantly, I agree that their egregious overreaching will continue to backfire on them!

So thanks for the insights, my friend. And lastly, if no apology was needed for my post, then CERTAINLY none is needed for yours! I demand a retraction immediately! heh heh...

[Crunchy Frog]

16. Retraction accepted, and please accept mine as well.

I think you're probably right about "probably" rather than "possibly". I just tend to be a little over-cautious.

It's a damn lucky thing that arrogance and hubris always carries the seeds of its own destruction. One wonders though, just how much else they will succeed in destroying before they destroy themselves.

Anyway, now that you're out of lurkdom, I hope to see many more interesting posts from you. Very brave of you to start a thread so soon after joining. Even after being here over two years I almost never start threads, and the ones I do start usually fizzle. :(

[Blue Velvet]

22. Well, I've really been inspired by all my reading here (I'm somewhat of a

DU disciple), and I think I just lucked out by getting so many thoughful and interesting replies my first time out. It'll probably be all downhill from here, ha ha, but I appreciate your help in at least making my first venture such a success (to me, anyway).

And I will try not to let you down on the "interesting post" front, either! I've actually been compiling a sort of "greatest hits" of inspirational quotes from all the DU posters which I hope to edit into a postable form sometime in the near future - I actually read them every morning for inspiration before I go out and face the brave new world. It occurred to me that maybe I should share the collection.

[NanceGreggs]

10. There's nothing disjointed or rambling ...

... about what you've said, Crunchy Frog -- quite the opposite!

As for their policies continuing to backfire on them, truer words were never spoken. They can't seem to help themselves. They always seem to be on top of things, to have the sheeple following along -- and then, BAM!, they have to take that one extra mis-step that undoes what they originally set out to do.

Stupid is as stupid does -- and lately, they just seem to keep 'doing stupid' at every turn ...

[Crunchy Frog]

13. I guess in some sense we can be grateful for W.

I really do think that they chose a complete idiot, whose stupidity is only matched by his arrogance, to use as a figurehead, and that choice has cost them dearly. I can't help imagining what the situation would be like if we had a truly competent and intelligent neocon fascist as president.

I'm sure that Bush is making alot of mistakes out of his swaggering arrogance that are making the neocons secrety cringe, and there's probably little that they can do about it, because my guess is that he is not as easy to control as maybe they expected.

My hope is that before he is done, he will have completely discredited the neocons and their agenda. Maybe he really is a sort of blessing in disguise; somebody who has inadvertantly foiled their plans.

Just a thought.

[Blue Velvet]

17. It's true, and I share your hope that in choosing the wrong "quarterback"

to pitch their agenda, the neocons are inadvertantly foiling their own plans. He certainly seems to be throwing a lot of interceptions - and some of those interceptions (namely the NSA-assisted kind) are certainly putting him in danger of losing the game.

[NanceGreggs]

18. We truly are on the same wave-length ...

It has always been my contention that Bush was just the chosen puppet of the PNAC crowd - people like Cheney, Rove, et al, knew they could never get elected themselves; they needed someone pliant enough to follow their direction, and stupid enough not to inject his own ideas.

That's when Karl Rove stood up and said, "You want a boy who will take orders and not ask too many questions? I've got the PERFECT guy for the job!"

So Bush's image gets all polished up for the masses and, with the not-too-shabby assistance of Diebold and SCOTUS, he gets elected.

But there was one thing they didn't count on: When you keep telling the boy he's the president and he can do what he wants, he eventually starts to believe it -- he starts 'acting out', starts making actual decisions (Harriet Miers), starts saying things he shouldn't (Spygate).

Not as easily controlled as they thought he'd be? I think you hit the nail on the head.

As for his eventually bringing the whole Neo-Con concept crashing down - well, from your lips to God's ears. After all, we've always been told that the Lord works in mysterious ways ...

[Neil Lisst]

19. I use the images to reveal their deeper truths.

[NanceGreggs]

24. Okay, I was just about to trot off to bed ...

... when I saw your post, Neil. I was going to send you a personal message tomorrow, but since you're here, I'll do it now.

I just wanted to thank you again for sharing your 'Christmas card' with all of us last week (the one with the child and the soldier). I've returned to it many times, to show to friends over the holidays. It always get the same teary-eyed reaction that I had when I first saw it.

The image always makes me think that THIS is how this time of year would have looked in Iraq (and perhaps in other parts of the world where we have troops stationed), had our soldiers been sent there to do the good that is in their hearts, as opposed to the evil that this Administration has had in its heart from the beginning.

A personal request: Please repost the card, or the link, here tonight? It's too moving not to be shared again and again ...

[Neil Lisst]

29. Nance, I'll gladly post that one. Here it is.

This is our Christmas Card.



I think it says HOPE.

[Peter Frank]

30. I resonate with you...

I learned about the DU while battling neoCons on Hannity's board for at least three years (and local Raleigh, NC boards). I'm still a member on Sean's board (I would prefer to be a member of Rush's board, but he doesn't have the balls to host a forum). I have well over 1,000 posts on all of these boards.

I never saw the need to join the DU until right before last year's so called election. Because of the traffic at that time, the DU was not accepting new members. I e-mailed all the moderators & Skinner let me in. Enough about me; but thanks Skinner.

What I've learned in my research is much more than I really want to know; even though I need to know.

Here's the deal. If you want to know how the Sun rises & sets -- follow the light. If you want to know the largest longstanding influence on the "right wing" which has taken over our democracy -- follow the money.

Many Republicans attempt to excoriate this notion, but who cares? The extreme right wing which came to power was bought years ago by the foreign interests of the the Unification Church.

Please do not take my word for this. Do your own research and see the relationship between foreign investment in American evangelism and the monetary rise in Republican campaign coffers.

The disconnect we experience between Republican mores and traditionally understood American values begin at the foreign money trail. Happy hunting.

Here's a hint... Keep in mind that the Unification Church (under Sun Myung Moon) founded and still owns the Washington Times



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/unification/wtimes.htm (Reagan praised this paper which can still afford to keep running at a huge loss).

The "Unification Church" (under Moon) bought out the world renowned press organization UPI! Helen Thomas resigned in protest -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_Press_International

Also see Moon's coronation in the Dirksen building -- http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/06/21/moon




Where's the mainstream press? -- We are it now. The other mainstreams have been diverted into the common feeding trough.

edit - sp.

[Blue Velvet]

31. Wow - thanks for the excellent links and the info.

Very interesting indeed. I had seen some references to some of this stuff in my readings but none in a fashion that tied it together in quite this way.

And perhaps this question reflects my naivity as I newly process some of this info, but I wonder how the "new Messiah" (aka Reverend Moon) - the founder of "various peace organizations, including the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification" (according to Wikipedia) - feels about all this war and torture, etc?

Is it the same way that "Dubya the Christian" feels about that silly ol' Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" perhaps?

[Peter Frank]

32. As you research this, stay close to the shower -- you're going to need it

There's allot of great info from various sources in this archived thread --
"Bush Supports Cross-Hating Movement..." -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5510352


Pastor John Kingara of Worcester,
Mass., throws his church's cross
in the dumpster.

Check out thread #40 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5510352#5517546


<snip>The Early Moon

Based on a 1997 profile by historian Anton Chaitkin and other sources, Moon's biography prior to becoming a mass cult leader, can be summarized thusly:

Yong Myung Mun (the name was later changed to fit a Gnostic doctrine) was born in northwestern Korea in 1920. His parents converted to a Pentecostal sect of the Presbyterian Church when he was about 10. Under North Korean Communist rule in 1946, Moon set up his own Pentecostal church, called the Jerusalem of the East (Kwang-ya). It featured shouting, faith-healing, and a Moon innovation called "blood-sharing." Based on pagan fertility rites, this was the unlimited copulation of the pastor with his female followers. On complaints from Christian churches, Moon was arrested by the North Korean police in 1946 for adultery, and again in 1948. He was tried on charges of bigamy and "social disorder," and condemned to five years of hard labor in a prison camp in Hung-nam. After serving two and a half years, he was released by advancing United Nations forces, and made his way south. He soon left his wife, and, without divorcing her, remarried and went back to holy blood-sharing.

Moon moved to Seoul, South Korea in 1954, where he set up the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity, or Unification Church. This occurred in connection with the founding of the Asian People's Anti-Communist League, an organization in the orbit of the Frank Buchman Moral Re-Armament grouping. Moon's lawyer at the time was Robert Amory, deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency under Allen Dulles.

Moon was arrested by the Seoul police in July 1955 for indecent activities causing "social disorder." The newspaper Segae reported July 6, 1955 that dozens of upper-class and university women were sexually involved with Moon. He was arrested again, later in 1955 for his furious fornications. On Oct. 4, 1955, after intervention by intelligence agencies, Moon was absolved of all accusations and freed. There began his free and clear path to emergence as a world figure.<snip>

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2949moonification.html