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Zorra

(27,670 posts)
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 02:27 PM Mar 2012

Please, if anyone has the time and inclination, I would really appreciate some

input/advice/criticism relating to this post I wrote in GD.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002438816#post26

It's just that, as a firm believer in collective leadership, I hesitate to presume to speak for the group in almost any way; and although it should be understood that much of what I write is only my opinion, it would be very helpful and instructive to me for my Occupy sisters and brothers to give me input on my thoughts and opinions so that I can avoid inaccuracies and know when I am being presumptious.

This will be a very great help to me in the future when explaining/defending our movement. I won't be able to respond right away because of pressing commitments.

Thanks so very much.

26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Please, if anyone has the time and inclination, I would really appreciate some (Original Post) Zorra Mar 2012 OP
It seems like "Crickets" here...but the people who founded this site are probably busy... KoKo Mar 2012 #1
i hear ya, KoKo Zorra Mar 2012 #13
You are wonderful - TBF Mar 2012 #2
Thanks, TBF, but Zorra Mar 2012 #12
I've taken this info over to the socialist progressives group - TBF Mar 2012 #14
Update: Occupy Tacoma has voted to have a May 1 event rhett o rick Apr 2012 #25
I think it was thoughtful and well-written. Leopolds Ghost Mar 2012 #3
The DU consensus seems pretty clear pinboy3niner Mar 2012 #4
Wow - didn't realize the number was that high. TBF Mar 2012 #5
Support is great here, but honest criticism should be welcome. rhett o rick Apr 2012 #24
Thanks. Agreed. Operative word here is, Zorra Apr 2012 #26
I'm glad you think so. Zorra Mar 2012 #11
Beautiful post(s). Joe Shlabotnik Mar 2012 #6
Thanks so much, Joe. Leopolds Ghost Mar 2012 #8
Beautiful post, thank you Joe. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #9
Thank you, beautiful post backatcha. Zorra Mar 2012 #10
I love that RFK quote also. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #16
Posters like the one you were arguing with UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2012 #7
That was an excellent and beautifully written, heartfelt post. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #15
Thanks, Sabrina1. Zorra Mar 2012 #17
I wish I would have found you sooner... BB_Troll Mar 2012 #18
You don't need leaders if you have momentum! ellisonz Mar 2012 #20
"how long can this movement last without a leader or set of leaders that will unite us even more?" Zorra Mar 2012 #21
Great Post unionworks Mar 2012 #19
So glad Zorra Mar 2012 #22
You did great, Zorra pinboy3niner Mar 2012 #23

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
1. It seems like "Crickets" here...but the people who founded this site are probably busy...
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:08 PM
Mar 2012

Hopefully they will come around ...it's a busy time.

Anyway...I'm not "of here"...but thought your post was interesting..but, I think whatever comes...it will come from "Outside of Here." If you get my "drift." It will come from "Outside of Here." I repeat.

TBF

(32,197 posts)
2. You are wonderful -
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:24 PM
Mar 2012

and thank you for all you are doing. The movement has been brilliant so far - the leaderless style is exactly what was needed. You'll find that on a website such as this you will probably not get much traction during election time in the big forums like General Discussion or Politics. To many of the members politics=elections.

Some of us older folks though understand exactly what you are doing and are applauding (and sending donations when we can) from the sidelines. We are in a hard place right now in this country. Sometimes it seems that the most we can do is hold on tight and not lose the labor gains we have made. But even that is slipping away now as we see the unions decimated.

Personally I read overseas papers to find out what is going on here - along with internet news that I can find. I do check out the NY Occupy updates as well. If you have any updates on May 1st I will personally see that folks know about them - both here in the Socialist Progressive group and on other leftist sites. Solidarity my friend.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
12. Thanks, TBF, but
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 03:19 PM
Mar 2012

I'm only one little piece so happy to be a part of this beautiful important movement that has taught me a lot in the short 6 months of our existence as a labeled entity.

Every little bit of support helps, even just sending heartfelt positive energy.

Here are a few websites for info on #M1GS

What is #M1GS?

Worldwide, May 1st is traditionally a ‘Workers’ day – a day of Labor Solidarity, and a public holiday. It’s a day to celebrate and march in support of im/migrant rights. In protest against the corruption of the worldwide marketplace, which has led to illegal foreclosures, mass unemployment, low wages, high taxes and a penalization of all those who do not own the ‘99%’ of the world’s resources, and in solidarity with the im/migrant movements of May 1st, we decided to declare May 1st, 2012 a People’s General Strike. Instead of calling upon unionized Labor to make a specific demand (illegal under Taft-Hartley), we are calling upon the people of the world to take this day away from school and the workplace, so that their absence makes their displeasure with this corrupt system be known.


http://www.occupymay1st.org/

http://occupii.org/events/occupy-may-day-general-strike

Some recent news

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/occupy-wall-street-urges-strike-arrests-15957348#.T2t1Ddn8mSo

Calls for May Day general strikes by occupy general assemblies as of 9 March 2012:

Boston, Massachusetts, 7 January 2012
Brooklyn, New York, 19 January 2012
Bushwick, New York, 1 March 2012
Detroit, Michigan, 21 February 2012
Long Beach, California, 17 January 2012
Los Angeles, California, 19 December 2011
Oakland, California, 29 January 2012
Pasadena, California, 8 January 2012
Phoenix, Arizona, 8 January 2012
Portland, Oregon, 10 February 2012
San Diego, California, (day?) February 2012
San Fernando Valley, California, 23 December 2011
Seattle, Washington, 26 February 2012
Sydney, Australia, 18 February 2012
Tampa, Florida, 7 January 2012
Ventura, California, 7 February 2012
Wall Street, New York, 14 February 2012
Williamsburg, New York, 17 January 2012

http://generalstrikedetroit.tumblr.com/post/18012131742/calls-for-may-day-general-strikes-by-occupy-general

If you want to be part of Occupy, you already are.

TBF

(32,197 posts)
14. I've taken this info over to the socialist progressives group -
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 03:35 PM
Mar 2012

and will be looking for info re Texas to pass on as well. Thank you again!

Leopolds Ghost

(12,875 posts)
3. I think it was thoughtful and well-written.
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:32 AM
Mar 2012

I think we need to challenge folks on GD to come to a consensus themselves on what, in their view, it means to support Occupy and what DUers should be doing verbally at least to support such an effort, if there is consensus for support, and if not, then what exactly do people feel that Democrats should be doing?


pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
4. The DU consensus seems pretty clear
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 11:36 AM
Mar 2012

The Occupy support thread got 626 recs:

Please Kick and Rec if you support OWS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100216575

The small number of critics are free to express their views in Occupy threads outside this group (as they have been doing all along).

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
24. Support is great here, but honest criticism should be welcome.
Sun Apr 1, 2012, 12:51 PM
Apr 2012

Actually honest criticism should be encouraged.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
26. Thanks. Agreed. Operative word here is,
Sun Apr 1, 2012, 03:48 PM
Apr 2012
honest. Constructive would be another good operative word.


The thing is, we have, for some time, been dealing with a number of recurrent, dishonest, non-constructive talking point "criticisms" from anti-Occupy sources...









Honest, constructive, positive dialogue, and constructive ideas, are always welcome, and a large number of various ideas have been brought up for consensus in GA's all around the country. Direct Participatory Democracy is wonderful but it can be a frustratingly tough gig. A lot of hard work goes into it all, and it's not usually all that easy to maintain a constructive balance. All are welcome to share their ideas, but honestly, the best way for someone to get their ideas heard and adopted would be to propose them at a GA.

Also, the ideas of folks that are consistently on the front lines may receive a bit more cred from the core of folks that consistently make up the participants in the majority of GA's. I usually just listen; lots of ideas to choose from, and a there is often some discourse on practical procedure/committees/grunt work, etc. So, like, when folks that don't have a lot of direct experience with the movement say, "Well, why don't you do this, or why don't you do that", other folks might smile and roll their eyes at some of it, and think, "BTW, we're out of water again..." And this is not to be negative, but the reality of it is, we're all just groups of regular human beings trying to get something done, often with cops in our faces...and sometimes this can be really fucking difficult.

From my perspective, anyone that supports Occupy is Occupy; we all generally do what we can the best we can figure how. But in order for us to really collectively get it done, we will need as much support of all kinds as possible, and some folks will go to greater lengths to make personal sacrifices to further what they believe to be desperately needed (life or death, quite possibly) critical change...there are some amazing dedicated folks that totally epitomize the word awesome. (I am definitely not even close to this class). But we all have our individual talents, skills, and strengths, and ultimately, collectively, we are all going to play some part in getting this done.

So anyway...there's gonna be a Mayday General Strike, supported by consensus at many GA's. It would be wonderful if everyone that supported Occupy would just sit down and reflect on what life could be like if the 1% we're not a factor, and maybe even join in any local Occupy actions if possible.

It could be a really big step toward making our collective idea(s) real. Just my opinion...rats, I''m rambling again...

☮ccupy





Zorra

(27,670 posts)
11. I'm glad you think so.
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 02:41 PM
Mar 2012

My main concern in writing/saying things regarding Occupy that may not be relative general consensus. I made an embarrassing mistake of this nature in the past and got called hard on it, and rightfully so.

I goofed again in the GD OP by not making it clear that much of it was just my opinion and that I was not necessarily speaking for Occupy as a whole.

From now on I will try to remember to make it clear that I am writing/speaking from my own perspective, which may also sometimes be a somewhat general group perspective.

"what exactly do people feel that Democrats should be doing?"

Yeh, I feel the same way.

thanks

Joe Shlabotnik

(5,604 posts)
6. Beautiful post(s).
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 02:10 AM
Mar 2012

I agree with your sentiments, but I too can only speak for myself with absolute certainty. I'd wager though, that 189 members of this group probably have your back, and the balance of the 626 rec's, referenced above, aren't too far behind. However, I'm sure you are aware that some will Never be on board. Some will view it as too risky. Some are happy with the status quo, or least not deeply concerned, maybe some are complacent. Some are complicit.

I discovered and passively read DU since the early 2000's, because of my disbelief, distrust and extreme aversion to modern conservatism as a front for authoritarianism, license for corruption and exploitation. Last August, I began to read about an idea of pitching tents on Wall street, and thought, "what a great idea", "this is years past due", "what if this took off". I finally joined DU last September, and started posting because I believe that the potential for Occupy to succeed lies largely with Democrats, who are the heirs of the legacy of progressives like FDR, LBJ, MLK, and RFK. But invoking their names without embracing their values is disingenuous and dishonorable, and sadly some flaunt this pedigree all the while rationalizing their complicity with the status quo.

It may not be a smooth ride around here in the coming months. But change comes from within, and the persistent industry of small drops of water eventually form the tidal wave of progress.

"Few will have the greatness to bend history; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation ... It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is thus shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." -RFK

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
9. Beautiful post, thank you Joe.
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:19 PM
Mar 2012

I haven't had time to read the OP yet, and have to leave for a while, so will read it later. I have always appreciated Zorra's posts however, so I'm looking forward to reading and commenting.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
10. Thank you, beautiful post backatcha.
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 02:23 PM
Mar 2012

We seem to be very much of the same mind.

That RFK quote is awesome. I believe Bobby would have loved Occupy, judging from all the cool spot on things that he said.


sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
16. I love that RFK quote also.
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 10:18 PM
Mar 2012

From Joe's post above, I think it bears repeating:

"Few will have the greatness to bend history; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation ... It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is thus shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." -RFK
 

UnrepentantLiberal

(11,700 posts)
7. Posters like the one you were arguing with
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:13 AM
Mar 2012

are the reason I rarely post to GD these days.

I liked your response.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
15. That was an excellent and beautifully written, heartfelt post.
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 10:16 PM
Mar 2012

Sincere, passionate and totally honest. I am sorry the person you were responding chose not to respond. But as far as being concerned about speaking for the movement, you spoke, eloquently, for me in that comment.

BB_Troll

(65 posts)
18. I wish I would have found you sooner...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:26 PM
Mar 2012

I think you're right on about ending the wars. Our children need to be brought home.

As someone who has been a leader of groups before, how long can this movement last without a leader or set of leaders that will unite us even more?

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
21. "how long can this movement last without a leader or set of leaders that will unite us even more?"
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:19 PM
Mar 2012

Forever, probably.

I like this quote from a post by DUer Deep 13:

"By creating demands or selecting leaders, the movement would define itself in opposition to the status quo casting itself as “the other” and apart from what is normal. Further, a specific leadership renders it vulnerable to decapitation by removing that leadership by arrest, death, or bribery. OWS and any larger movement that grows from it ought to continue to avoid that trap by remaining a decentralized movement."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/100238810

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
22. So glad
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:26 PM
Mar 2012

you think the post is appropriate.

Honestly, I don't feel like I'm doing enough for Occupy. I was going to head down to my main Occupy group this week for 4 days and a GA when unexpected commitments prevented me from going.

Shooting for next week.

Thanks, unionworks, for supporting Occupy.

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