Reading this forum is like reading "Red State" with a big splash of Alex Jones.

[boston bean]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Hassin Bin Sober (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

wowser.

[obamanut2012]

1. 100% agree, BB

It's

[NCTraveler]

2. The right wing attacks and conspiracies are amazing. Nt

[Hortensis]

33. And because they're anti-HRC, Bernie's ultrapartisans

pile on to support them. With these people working at throwing the election, and I do believe the antipathy of some toward the party and its nominee is so strong that they genuinely do want to do that, who needs Republicans?

[Andy823]

135. I totally agree.

A hell of a lot of posters here on DU are trying their best to make sure "NO" Democrat gets elected this year. Their goal is to divide the boards, stir things up so both sides hate the other side, and they hope that no matter who the nominee is, voters from the losing camp will sit out the election. The stuff that gets posted here is straight from the right wing smear machine. These posters hate DU, they hate Obama, they hate Clinton, and the hate the whole Democratic party. If they hate all these things, then why in the hell would they want to be here day in and day out if it weren't to cause problems?

[PowerToThePeople]

3. I know

Last edited Tue May 10, 2016, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)

I wish the Hillary supporters would slink back to their propper right wing holes.

[Hortensis]

37. The point exemplified.

[LexVegas]

4. This is a Hillary Clinton hate site now. nt

[obamanut2012]

10. You know Lex, that is exactly what it is

It isn't a Pro-Bernie site like so many say. And, it's 100% the Admins' faults. I understand making money, but this isn't supposed to be Discussionist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. In the end...

[1StrongBlackMan]

101. And it was(is) an anti-President Obama site before that ...

and an anti-Bush site before that (but I'm okay with its anti-Bushness). That makes me wonder ... are the majority of folks on this site very anti-whatever?

Perhaps, the "flaw" can be traced to the "underground" part?

[virtualobserver]

126. or it could be traced to this....

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/05/wealthy-cruz-bush-donors-dump-millions-hillarys-campaign/

[NurseJackie]

12. Negligence at the helm.

Or overindulgence.

[Hortensis]

39. I'm afraid you are right. Hillhate spreaders work

very hard to keep not just the main forums filled with their poisonous threads, but they also post in most subforums where people might seek to escape their toxic spewings.

[1StrongBlackMan]

104. I know ... As a Host of the African-American Group, I can tell you ...

we went years with less than 10 people on the Blocked list ... that number jumped after May 2015 and seemed to sky-rocket after each round of primaries, whether Sanders won or lost.

[Hortensis]

121. Come to harass after each round of primaries, win or lose?

Bizarre. There was major angry turbulence on DS-P after almost all the debates, even when I thought Sanders did just fine.

[1StrongBlackMan]

122. Yep ... when Bernie won a primary ...

Last edited Tue May 10, 2016, 02:02 PM - Edit history (1)

the AA was swarmed with such helpful Bernie supporters, telling us on how we were voting against our own interests ... we needed to educate ourselves; and then, we would feel the bern ... who became angry Bernie supporters, when we told them they did not define our collective interests.

And with every Bernie loss, the AA was swarmed with angry Bernie supporters telling us on how we were voting against our own interests ... we needed to educate ourselves; and then, we would feel the bern ... who became angrier Bernie supporters, when we told them they did not define our collective interests.


It got really tiring and kept the hosts really, really busy.

[Hortensis]

125. That behavior is exactly like the far right's.

In spite of difficulty telling a real difference, I still believe what some social scientists report, that the far left's hostility tends to be toward those who do not join them in what one called "universal principles," rather than like the far right's bigotry toward all they do not consider "us."

Far, far better to have both as enemies than qualify as a friend, though. Just imagine the kind of posts AA would be "swarmed" with if the people there were considered fellow "revolutionaries"! Lol.

Seriously, both are potentially very, very dangerous if they get power to persecute people in real life, as their relentless frustrated attacks on forums like this make too clear. If nothing else, they perform a service by helping open eyes.

[1StrongBlackMan]

127. LOL ...

Just imagine the kind of posts AA would be "swarmed" with if the people there were considered fellow "revolutionaries"! Lol.

Well ... it does seem to be a sticking point, as to why, we do not consider them "allies", despite their invitations for us to join their revolution ... wait ... invitations to allow them make their revolution, our struggle ... wait ... invitations to make our struggle, their struggle ... once we help them win their revolution ... Damn, that's tiring.

[Hortensis]

134. Too funny. But terribly unfair!

Poor things. The politics of resentment has to be damned fatiguing without having to argue with other groups about who owns their struggle.

[1StrongBlackMan]

138. LOL ...

There is only one struggle, dammit! ... Now, march that away, Ally! Only 24,901 miles until We get to your, er, our other, equally important, issue

[Nonhlanhla]

60. Which is deeply ironic.

Last edited Tue May 10, 2016, 11:35 AM - Edit history (1)

This site, DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, was started after Gore "lost" to Bush. And now the presumptive Democratic nominee is smeared left right and center, while a Republican presumptive nominee even more dangerous than Bush, is for all practical purposes talked up (how many threads were there yesterday suggesting that Trump is to the left of Hillary on some issues, which is bullshit of the purest quality).

[1StrongBlackMan]

105. Telling ... Isn't it?

[Sparkly]

67. Yes indeed.

It is.

[uponit7771]

82. +1

[nc4bo]

5. Truth always seems like lies to those running away from it.

SHE created her own baggage and no one else.

[apcalc]

9. Disagree...

Her baggage has been created by the multitude of , truly non-existent, Republican so called 'scandals'.
At least for me.

[nc4bo]

22. I disagree. I voted and supported Barack Obama, another Democrat, because of it.

She owns all of it and if she didn't think far enough as to how her actions could be seen as corrupt or could become an issue in her potential candidacy then it directly speaks to her lack of good judgement.

[Live and Learn]

48. +10,000 nt

[asuhornets]

75. Lack of Judgement--another Bernie talking point

So Hillary Clinton should have known better for running for president since there would be so much negative coverage of her?

[1StrongBlackMan]

106. And, now, a trump talking point. Go figure.

[tex-wyo-dem]

131. Wouldn't you agree that a candidate's...

Judgement on issues is an important quality in a POTUS? Hillary's history shows poor judgement on a number of matters. A perfect example: if she had just chosen to follow protocol and rules with regards to her email communications, the whole issue would be non-existent. Dumb

[frylock]

139. Mrs Clinton has displayed a lack of judgment on several issues.

Are you suggesting that it was a VRWC that caused her to use such poor judgment?

[asuhornets]

146. what is VRWC?

[frylock]

148. Your Google broken?

[asuhornets]

151. bye

[frylock]

155. ..

[asuhornets]

156. funnnnnneeeeee...

[frylock]

158. You're back!

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

there, the liberal in me helping

[asuhornets]

154. thanks..

[apcalc]

103. You and I differ on this point.

[840high]

128. .that^

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Disgree, here she is making her own baggage:

The irony of your post in support of her is that you blame the GOP while she praises them for doing things everyone else knows they did not do and for which they are despised for not doing. How do you rationalize that 'cake and eat it too' routine in which she lavishly praises the GOP then her supporters blame the GOP for what she has said? Seems hypocritical to me.

[Sparkly]

69. I love the reruns of moments that seem shocking and scandalous.

In fact, it is true that Nancy urged Pres. Reagan to address the AIDs issue. Might not have been a lot, but at the time it was SOMEthing and it was the first time the word "condom" was used publicly, in Koop's statements.

[COLGATE4]

79. Don't bother. This is that poster's hobby horse, Never misses

an opportunity to stick it in a thread, regardless of whether it's applicable.

[KittyWampus]

102. How to identify an ideologue on either side of spectrum or any direction on compass:

How to identify an ideologue on either side of spectrum or any direction on compass:


1. Insistent effort to talk about a certain topic. If another topic comes up, it’s purposely being done to avoid the ideologue’s preferred topic.

Also, if a conversation about issue X is happening, purposely use it to bring up issue Y even if not directly related.

2. Black/White thinking. Unwillingness to agree to disagree or concede other person may have valid opinions.

3. Impatience with someone once it's realized they won’t convert. Impatience moves on towards hostility. Ideologues have a missionary complex & are determined to convert others to their viewpoint regardless of cost.

4. Cutting off conversations. Provocation. Value winning argument over having fair exchange of ideas.

5. Ideas/opinions presented as factual regardless if evidence to contrary.
If presented with facts can’t refute than source of facts is biased. Or resort to smears.

[COLGATE4]

136. Excellent summary! Thanks!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

108. Oh ... You noticed that, too? ...

"This rain feels good upon my face."

{Post HRC's AIDS scandal here}

[Bluenorthwest]

111. I buried dozens of friends and loved ones while Reagan did nothing.

The OP invokes Jones and the right wing, and to be blunt praising Reagan while cooking up bogus AIDS history and denial is very, very Alex Jones. So it's applicable to this thread.

[frylock]

141. This is that poster's hobby horse?

Fucking disgusting post.

[COLGATE4]

145. Who the hell asked you?

[frylock]

147. Take your fucking bullshit to your safe haven if you can't hang.

[COLGATE4]

149. Do you eat with that mouth?

[Hortensis]

40. She's done things people don't like, but

they're all framed as scandals or crimes against humanity by PROFESSIONAL LIARS.

Zero excuse for those DUers who willfully choose to believe well-known PROFESSIONAL LIARS speaking on their favorite subjects to lie about -- in the Information Age or at any other time in human history. And to inflate minor issues into major attacks.

Yet hypocrites claiming to be outraged by dishonesty leap to fill every screen of DU with any story that provides them with ammunition and even constant calls for their favorite target to be railroaded into prison. Beyond despicable.

[uponit7771]

85. This is false on its face

[synergie]

115. And lies seem like truth to those who are so blinded by hate that they are

Terrified of the facts. This is why the BSers get so angry and upset when truths about Bernie are expressed, like his writings, his votes and his on camera tantrums when asked questions.

But lies about Hilkary created by the Right Wing do sound sweet to those who like to pretend that that is somehow baggage she created.

Why are you so afraid of truth and why does RW trademarked baggage appeal so much to you guys?

[nc4bo]

172. LOL - Hillary CREATED her own pile NO ONE else. Sorry yall just can't accept it.

She was a disgusting and horrible candidate in 2007/2008 and she's a disgusting and horrible candidate NOW.

So disgusting and horrible that many of us voted for Barack Obama INSTEAD of Hillary Clinton in 2008.

Nothing has changed.

NOTHING.

[baldguy]

6. And to think that we still have a month of this to deal with

barring any sudden dose of integrity on Sanders' part.

[frylock]

142. Or indictments.

[apcalc]

7. Sometimes , yes.

For " Democratic " seems to me many comments are at least , right of center.

[notadmblnd]

8. Wow is right.

Wow! That so many self proclaimed democrats spend so much of their time at right wing sites.

[boston bean]

17. At least when I run across it, I know it's a bunch of rw bullshit.

Others, can't seem to figure it out.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. rw bullshit:

"It may be hard for your viewers to remember how difficult it was for people to talk about HIV/AIDS back in the 1980s and because of both president and Mrs. Reagan — in particular Mrs. Reagan — we started a national conversation, when before nobody would talk about it, nobody wanted to do anything about it, and that too is something I really appreciate with her very effective low-key advocacy. It penetrated the public conscience and people began to say, hey, we have to do something about this too."- Hillary Clinton March 2016, inexplicably and with the full support of her boosters.

[boston bean]

31. You get points for spam.

[Bluenorthwest]

109. The truth is spam? Then what do you call Hillary's boatload of lies about AIDS and Reagan?

The fact that your response is just more dismissal of the truth, the facts and the history and a further endorsement of Hillary's revisionist Reagan romance says all there is to say.

I post this material because when I do it makes your cohort say rude things or fall silent, you folks have no response to speak of because when she said that shit you all cheered for it, excused it and defended it. No one in your cohort objected to it, no one seemed to mind the praise of Reagan nor the erasing of the activists who did all the things Hillary claimed Dutch and Nancy did.

If is definitive of Hillary Clinton and of her cohort. She was either pandering to the right extravagantly or she has cognitive issues we need to discuss. Her comments were as outlandish as saying George W Bush was the Hero of Katrina, only worse because it was seven years of Reagan silence and tens of thousands of American deaths. To which you say 'don't talk about it, that's spam'.

I'm not a Reagan Democrat. I've listened to the ignorant comments of Reagan Democrats since Reagan was alive so you need to up your game to bother me.

[boston bean]

119. Spam is spam.

And very often not the complete truth.

[frylock]

143. Your OP is spam.

Sanders supporters are no different than the right-wing herp derp. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Sparkly]

72. There it is again.

We did start a national conversation at that time. It was little, it was late -- it was not what it should have been -- but at the woman's funeral it is not a horrible thing to say Nancy did "low key advocacy" to urge her husband. That is true. Nobody was saying "condoms" in public before that, so it was when a national conversation began. Again, not defending the Reagans -- but to make a big deal of what Clinton said is ridiculous. She and the Clinton Foundation have done a LOT for AIDs victims worldwide.
https://www.clintonfoundation.org/our-work/clinton-health-access-initiative/programs/hivaids

[tonedevil]

86. There you go again..

no one is suggesting that Secretary Clinton should have said something bad about Nancy Reagan she didn't need to lie in such an obvious and truly outrageous way. In many ways this is one of the most casually despicable things I've heard anyone say. Millions of young people in their prime died due to the silence and in action of the Reagan administration. At no time did Mrs. Reagan say anything even when her friend Rock Hudson begged her to while he was in the final stages. You have no proof of any advocacy low key or otherwise. That's just something you have made up to make that statement less than horrific.

[Sparkly]

92. I lived through that period of time.

You don't have to tell me about people who died or the silence surrounding the crisis.

HOWEVER, what Clinton said is NOT an "obvious and truly outrageous lie."

We can go over the history of the thing forever, but Nancy urging Ronnie is typically what's been said about how the "conversation" began.

(The thing about Rock Hudson is also a distortion.)

[Bluenorthwest]

113. You are revising history that does not belong to you

1987

41,027 persons are dead and
71,176 persons diagnosed with AIDS in the US.


After years of negligent silence, President Ronald Reagan finally uses the word "AIDS" in public. He sided with his Education Secretary William Bennett and other conservatives who said the Government should not provide sex education information. (They are still saying it!)

On April 2, 1987, Reagan said: "How that information is used must be up to schools and parents, not government. But let's be honest with ourselves, AIDS information can not be what some call 'value neutral.' After all, when it comes to preventing AIDS, don't medicine and morality teach the same lessons."
http://www.actupny.org/reports/reagan.html

Reagan's AIDS Legacy / Silence equals death
As America remembers the life of Ronald Reagan, it must never forget his shameful abdication of leadership in the fight against AIDS. History may ultimately judge his presidency by the thousands who have and will die of AIDS.
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/Reagan-s-AIDS-Legacy-Silence-equals-death-2751030.php

Why Ronald Reagan’s legacy should be vilified, not sanctified
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/02/why-ronald-reagans-legacy-should-be-vilified-not-sanctified/

[notadmblnd]

123. Well beng the avid member that you appear to be, I'm sure you do.

[Human101948]

41. I supported Hillary until she spouted that nonsense about Nancy Reagan...

It was a slap in the face of all the poeple who had friends and family dying while the Reagan administration laughed about AIDS.

I defended her on the email server until her personal IT guy's emails went missing, reminiscent of the 18 minute gap in Nixon's tape.

I was gung ho for Hillary's position on health care until I found out she doesn't have one these days, saying "The last thing we need is to throw our country into a contentious debate about health care again."

I was for Hillary as Secretary of State. until I discovered that she was promoting fracking around the world.

Clinton promised it would do so "in a way that is as environmentally respectful as possible."

But environmental groups were barely consulted, while industry played a crucial role. When Goldwyn (oil company lobbyist recruited by Hillary) unveiled the initiative in April 2010, it was at a meeting of the United States Energy Association, a trade organization representing Chevron, Exxon Mobil, and ConocoPhillips, all of which were pursuing fracking overseas. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron

I was for Hillary until she actively supported military thugs and criminal administrations in Honduras and Haiti.

In both Honduras and Haiti, Clinton chose to shy away from letting each country’s voters choose their leaders when the going got tough. American voters, the people of Honduras, the people of Haiti and anyone who cares about democracy and human rights should know whether Clinton as president would be a promoter of such values.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/03/10/hillary-clinton-needs-to-answer-for-her-actions-in-honduras-and-haiti/

[Hortensis]

46. I actually don't believe you did. That is because the

things you claim to find so compelling are so enormously outweighed by her many years of fighting for liberal progressive solutions to our problems.

"Women's Rights are Human Rights"


President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton with the leaders of Brazil, China, India, and South Africa and 8 other representatives to establish the Copenhagen Accord


I could go on and on and on, of course, but if you were once a supporter maybe these will jog your memory.

[Hare Krishna]

71. Tell that to the dead women and children in Libya, Syria, Honduras, Iraq and many more

I'm sure there are more.

[frylock]

150. Yeah, dead people in Libya, Syria, Honduras, Iraq are meaningless.

[Sparkly]

74. Oh for cryin' out loud

The SANCTIMONY here is insufferable.

The world is a messy place and where there are murderous dictators, there's going to be dead women and children, as well as men. Putting that at the feet of Hillary Clinton, as though she were some bloodthirsty murderer who delights in the deaths of women and children, is really more than a stretch.

[COLGATE4]

81. Have you been saving up this post since May 5?

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. How many red baiting talking points can you put in one post

marxist campus based radicals is my favorite though. Given that he is not to the left of Trotsky. This betrays your lack of political theory education.

As to the sore looser but-hurt conspiracies, where to start on this as an antigay slur...

Lovely, but expected from neo liberals.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. You mean like the people defending Henry Kissinger?

Fucked up, i hear ya.

[msanthrope]

18. I'm shocked, shocked that the Pentagon would give a former Secretary of State

an award for their public service. In an election year.

Yawn. I'm not going to pretend to be shocked that the MIC awards one of their own. I was too busy registering voters last night to protect SCOTUS.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Im not shocked, either.

But lets not pretend the guy is some sort of wonderful mentor, deserving of praise.

At least acknowledge- no, obviously not there, but fuck yes here- the fucking carnage he caused, not to mention the little bit about allegedly being involved with helping Nixon sabatoge the 68 paris accords.

I think there's a word for that, starts with a "T"

[boston bean]

21. I don't think there is a fucking soul on this website that praises Henry Kissinger.

So, let's start with that premise, ok?

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Right.

"Tee hee! Tee hee! Internet points for team C, winning teh internets against team B! Tee hee!"



You're claiming to be an expert on the noxious shit that is being posted in GDP, so you're perfectly capable of looking around yourself.

[boston bean]

28. Looking at myself for what? Me praising Henry Kissinger? You best be able to provide some proof of

that.

And yeah, I do know myself better than you know me.

[Human101948]

43. Forget this site. It's Hillary herself who praises Kissinger...

The two diplomats had a cordial, warm and respectful relationship, based
on writings about their interactions during Mrs. Clinton’s tenure at the State
Department.
“Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as
secretary of state,” Mrs. Clinton wrote in The Washington Post, in a positive
review of his book “World Order.”
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/02/12/hillary-clintons-ties-to-henry-kissinger-come-back-to-haunt-her/

[Hortensis]

54. Yep, and every other living ex- SecState, or as she said

"a fascinating club" whom she turned to for their thoughts and the benefit of their experiences -- which "transcend partisan differences." I can't find that she ever called Kissinger a "mentor," but he is a brilliant man and only a fool would refuse to consider his thoughts on important international events.

As for "friend," if he acts like a friend and talks like a friend and returns her calls, he probably is one.

As for your wonderfully high standards, I invite you all to look around your acquaintanceships. We all have a way of accepting people into our circles that we should not be associating with because of something below our standards, but they come with the rest and it would cost us to refuse to allow them to enter our house or attend parties where they will be present.

And we don't even have the excuse of talking to our personal social scumbags in order to deal with huge international problems that threaten many millions. We, in fact, have no excuse except self aggrandizement for dropping the standards rank hypocrisy enables holding others to.

WE must be people of honor because we have such high standards for OTHERS? Gimme a break.

[Armstead]

61. A little deeper than that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1932787

[Human101948]

65. Checked my inner circle...not one war criminal among them

No murderers, no thugs, no hedge fund managers.

And I have yet to overturn a democratically elected government.

But I have had friends murdered by CIA thugs supported by Kissinger and George H. W. Bush--both good friends of the Clintons.

The threat is this country being run by people who only use words like democracy and self determination as propaganda and laughing at the laws that rule the rest of us.

[1StrongBlackMan]

114. Again, I order to score DU points, one must ignore real life.

[frylock]

159. Do all the other ex-SecsState vacation together?

[opiate69]

132. Wow..

You seriously need to take some remedial reading classes. What Warren said: "take a look around yourself". What you apparently read "take a look at yourself". Once again you show the true depth of your intellect.

[Warren DeMontague]

161. I said "looking AROUND yourself". as in, finding the comments, Bean.

But whatever, don't let me interrupt your hyperbole-filled hyperventilation about how awful this website is, any further.

[Armstead]

56. They don't have to -- She praises him and spends Christmas with him

BY Hillary Clinton
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-reviews-henry-kissingers-world-order/2014/09/04/b280c654-31ea-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

In his new book, “World Order,” Henry Kissinger explains the historic scope of this challenge. His analysis, despite some differences over specific policies, largely fits with the broad strategy behind the Obama administration’s effort over the past six years to build a global architecture of security and cooperation for the 21st century.,,,

....Nonetheless, many people around the world today — especially millions of young people — don’t know these success stories, so it becomes our responsibility to show as well as tell what American leadership looks like. This is especially important at a time when many are wondering, as Kissinger puts it, “Are we facing a period in which forces beyond the restraints of any order determine the future?”

....Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as secretary of state. He checked in with me regularly, sharing astute observations about foreign leaders and sending me written reports on his travels. Though we have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past, what comes through clearly in this new book is a conviction that we, and President Obama, share: a belief in the indispensability of continued American leadership in service of a just and liberal order. There really is no viable alternative...

.... A real national dialogue is the only way we’re going to rebuild a political consensus to take on the perils and the promise of the 21st century. Henry Kissinger’s book makes a compelling case for why we have to do it and how we can succeed.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/02/hillary-clinton-kissinger-vacation-dominican-republic-de-la-renta

.....With all this history, it was curious that in 2014, Clinton wrote a fawning review of Kissinger's latest book and observed, "America, he reminds us, succeeds by standing up for our values, not shirking them, and leads by engaging peoples and societies, the sources of legitimacy, not governments alone." In that article, she called Kissinger, who had been a practitioner of a bloody foreign-policy realpolitik, "surprisingly idealistic."

This Clinton lovefest with Kissinger is not new. And it is not simply a product of professional courtesy or solidarity among former secretaries of state, who, after all, are part of a small club. There is also a strong social connection between the Clintons and the Kissingers. They pal around together. On June 3, 2013, Hillary Clinton presented an award to de la Renta, a good friend who for years had provided her dresses and fashion advice, and then the two of them hopped over to a 90th birthday party for Kissinger. The Clintons and Kissingers appear to spend a chunk of their quality time together at that de la Renta estate in the Punta Cana resort.... Last year, the Associated Press noted that this is where the Clintons take their annual Christmas holiday. And other press reports in the United States and the Dominican Republic have pointed out that the Kissingers are often part of the gang the de la Rentas have hosted each year. When Oscar de la Renta died in 2014, the New York Times obituary reported:

At holidays, the de la Rentas filled their house in Punta Cana with relatives and friends, notably Bill and Hillary Clinton, Nancy and Henry Kissinger, and the art historian John Richardson. .....

In 2012, the Wall Street Journal, in a profile of de la Renta, wrote:

Over Christmas the Kissingers were among the close group who gathered in Punta Cana, including Barbara Walters, Bill and Hillary Clinton, and Charlie Rose. "We have two house rules," says Oscar, laughing. "There can be no conversation of any substance and nothing nice about anyone."

A travel industry outlet reported that Vogue editor..... Last April, the Weekly Standard noted that the Clintons had spent a week around the previous New Year's at Punta Canta and that Secret Service protection for the trip had cost $104,000. It was during this vacation that Hillary Clinton reportedly decided to run for president for the second time.

This gathering of the Clintons, the Kissingers, and the de la Rentas seems to occur most years. In 2011, de la Renta, a native of the Dominican Republic, told Vogue that he built this seaside estate so he could host his close friends, and he cited the Kissingers and Clintons as examples. "At Christmas," he said, "we're always in the same group.".

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/02/12/hillary-clintons-ties-to-henry-kissinger-come-back-to-haunt-her/

When Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, she relied on Henry A. Kissinger’s counsel. He would send her “astute observations about foreign leaders” and “written reports on his travels.” She would joke with him that smartphones would have made his covert Cold War trip to Beijing impossible.

The two diplomats had a cordial, warm and respectful relationship, based on writings about their interactions during Mrs. Clinton’s tenure at the State Department.

“Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as secretary of state,” Mrs. Clinton wrote in The Washington Post, in a positive review of his book “World Order.”.....

[boston bean]

62. Do you even read your cut and pastes?

Though we have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past, what comes through clearly in this new book is a conviction that we, and President Obama, share: a belief in the indispensability of continued American leadership in service of a just and liberal order. There really is no viable alternative...

[Armstead]

64. Yeah i did...She was saying very nice things about Kissinger, and praising his view of the world..

You said that propel on DU do not praise Kissinger, including yourself.

I pointed out that Clinton herself says a lot of nice things....And much more that that.

largely fits with the broad strategy behind the Obama administration’s effort over the past six years to build a global architecture of security and cooperation

Ar you familiar with Kissinger's "idealism" and view of "American leadership"? The people of Vietnam, Chile and numerous otehr countries -- as well as countless dead American soldiers -- might disagree with his assessments and idealism on a more basic level.

[Hortensis]

94. This dishonesty is just as bad as flat-out lies because

it promotes lies. Hillary Clinton was 19 years old when Nixon sabotaged the 1968 peace talks, 20 when Kissinger became Nixon's National Security Advisor. Later on she was a whole 27 when she was an attorney for the Senate Judiciary Committee investigating Watergate.

She was a kid in college at the time and in no way involved in the crimes of that era, yet this pretend outrage is all a device to associate her with them.

As for associating with Kissinger, yes, all our top leaders of that era should have gone to prison, along with all the many millions of Americans who supported our murders in various countries. I don't know how old you are, but millions of Americans were knowingly complicit in and even passionately supportive of our crimes. To send a few to prison for our crimes would have required admitting they were crimes, and America was entirely unwilling.

As a result, Kissinger has been honored then and every decade of Hillary's adult life by generations of leaders of America and the world, who choose to focus on his very real, great contributions and avoid other, very unpleasant truths. That includes every president since that era, every Secretary of State, and so on, by the thousands. They even awarded him the Nobel Peace Prize.

As for associating with him, people who work at that level ALL associate with others of that level. That's the way it is. Sanders probably never did more than shake hands with Kissinger, if that, because for a Senator he was really on the outside and not very powerful. We know the Sierra Blanca Senator's ethical standards can be quite, flexible shall we say?

But you turn doing what every leader and every representative and host and hostess have always done into a personal crime committed by Hillary Clinton that makes her lower than the rest of us, all for shabby partisanship. And, Armstead, it doesn't matter how many articles you copy in to support your slanderous manipulation, IMO it is contemptible.

[Armstead]

95. You have pinpointed the problem

People who work at that level ALL associate with others of that level.

The little people -- i.e. anyone who doesn't do along with the program -- are left out of the equation.

I would rather support someone who was opposing our behavior in Chile, for example, than someone praising the person responsible. I fyou think that is contemnptable, so be it.

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB437/

Henry Kissinger urged President Richard Nixon to overthrow the democratically elected Allende government in Chile because his "'model' effect can be insidious," according to documents posted today by the National Security Archive. The coup against Allende occurred on this date 40 years ago. The posted records spotlight Kissinger's role as the principal policy architect of U.S. efforts to oust the Chilean leader, and assist in the consolidation of the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile.

The documents, which include transcripts of Kissinger's "telcons" — telephone conversations — that were never shown to the special Senate Committee chaired by Senator Frank Church in the mid 1970s, provide key details about the arguments, decisions, and operations Kissinger made and supervised during his tenure as national security adviser and secretary of state.

[Hortensis]

97. Oh, no I didn't. I indicted millions of "small people"

who insisted on murder, just as they are today. The Nixons and Kissingers didn't do anything those people didn't want. Today millions are calling for nuking the Middle East, and so far it is people like our current national leaders, including SoS Clinton, who stand between them and mass murder.

[Armstead]

99. Oh, another variation on "support the terrible to avoid the horrible"

It's not the relatively small number of people who think we should nuke the Middle East that are the problem.

It's the approach of meddling where we should not have been meddling to push American power and Corporate Interests that are the problem. The crises we experience are blow-back from that.

And before you bring up crap about Bernie and Latin American "commies" like Castro there is a huge difference between believing that countries should have self-determination -- and criticizing the abuses of dictators as Bernie does -- and enabling and encouraging rotten behavior to advance the US "model" and impose right-wing corporate states. That is NOT protecting America or promoting democracy.

No way should anything "nice" be said about things like ths:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/27/henry-kissinger-human-rights_n_7454172.html

Later, as the Ford administration’s Secretary of State in 1976, Kissinger enabled the Pinochet government to assassinate political opponents abroad like Orlando Letelier, a former Allende government minister. ....The Pinochet government detained and tortured more than 40,000 people from 1973 to 1990 and murdered over 3,000, according to estimates from the current Chilean government.

Kissinger’s actions in Chile stand out because that is the example he used in arguing that international law gives countries too much latitude to prosecute war crimes. In his June 2001 essay in Foreign Affairs, “The Pitfalls of Universal Jurisdiction,” Kissinger he claimed that a Spanish judge should not have the power to extradite Pinochet, then living in London, for war crimes Pinochet committed in Chile

[arikara]

133. Unfortunately there is a few

On this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027820277

and some pretty disgusting comments of support on this thread too, the op was ridiculously alerted on for "trashing democrats" among other things as well:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511931210

[msanthrope]

23. Who is pretending?

It's a deeply cynical and ironic award in a deeply cynical and ironic time. But I spent last night registering voters... Not being outraged.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. meh. If I wanted to be deeply cynical and ironic

I'd live on the other coast.

[msanthrope]

29. Welcome to the GE. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

164. Look- in all seriousness- "the time" is only as "deeply cynical and ironic" as we decide to make it.

A wise man once said, we are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams.

Look, our generation didnt invent irony, but we turned it into some cool t-shirts. Irony and cynicism have their place. But perhaps what some are missing this cycle is the deep seated hunger of many in the electorate- particularly young people- for authenticity that represents more than just cynicism and irony?

[msanthrope]

166. Warren....kinda too busy registering voters to wonder what the millenials are yearning for.

There's a SCOTUS to save, amidst all the navel gazing.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. You claimed the time was deeply cynical and ironic, not me.

You managed to find the time to post that assessment. Good luck with the registration drive.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. So well said, nothing like an election cycle to demonstrate why I don't live back East....

nt

[boston bean]

38. Well, that is insulting to liberals who live on the East Coast.

[bluegopher]

55. No doubt,

If I wanted to be deeply cynical and ironic I'd live on a coast. 🙂

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Well, I call em like I see em.

[opiate69]

171. As someone who has spent over 20 years on each coast,

I wholeheartedly second your assertion.

[uponit7771]

88. +1

[Waiting For Everyman]

50. I know, right? It's like Neocon Central.

on GDP lately:


Honoring Kissinger. Having him for a mentor. Vacationing with that genocidal war-criminal asshole for years too.

Nancy Reagan's great work on AIDS. And the lovely poison Prison Blood Scandal.

"Sharing Bush donors' values". Cruz donors. "Megachurch Moms"

Yay big banks, and millions for secret speeches to the real base.

Lobbyist Superdelegates.

Cute hug pictures with Shrub. And Kissinger. And Trump.

Incrementalism. No we can't.

Privately run State Dept. with no transparency and no steenkin' FOIA.

"Too big to jail". Panderers-R-Us.

The Clinton Hit List.


There's nothing like a good whiplash U-turn to the right.

What's next, I wonder? I think Jebby for her VP would make it all just perfect.

[Sparkly]

52. Weak.

Last edited Tue May 10, 2016, 09:21 AM - Edit history (1)

People see what they want to see, cherry-picked.

[Jim Lane]

100. You have EXACTLY described the stupidity of the OP.

I realize that wasn't your intention, but you did a good job anyway.

[JaneyVee]

14. MOAR TINFOIL ASAP!

[B Calm]

15. Republicans are taking over the Democratic party. Thanks to

Hillary. .

[Mnpaul]

16. Free trade, pro coal, pro war, honoring Kissinher, anti single payer

Yep, just like Redstate.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

19. If only Rahm Emanuel would have run, then we all would have united behind Bernie against Clintonian

policy. But Rahm is, until he recently turned toxic, 4th in line. Now...sexism. No one is rejecting New Democrats/Third Way policy makers. We're conveniently sexiest. Sexism protects Hillary supporters from self-examination.

[beachbumbob]

27. To me it's all noise caused by sour grapes of a losing candidate supporters

It be all over soon enough...

[stonecutter357]

32. K&R!

[Armstead]

34. Interesting -- I would say the same thing -- but for the opposite reasons you have

[Live and Learn]

49. +10,000 nt

[Vinca]

36. Except, of course, they are citing major news sources.

By the way, the Red State guy sounds like he's supporting Hillary over Trump.

[Broward]

42. Again, right-wingers complaining about right-wing slime.

[OilemFirchen]

84. Hang on...

Boston Bean is "right wing slime"?

[SidDithers]

44. The right hates Hillary. The fringe left hates Hillary...

and there's no longer a dimes worth of difference between them.

Sid

[workinclasszero]

47. It's the horseshoe theory

Tea party, left and right.





Horseshoe theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

[Hortensis]

58. Yup. And on any one issue the U may be more like an O.

[workinclasszero]

45. I agree

If I wanted to read right wing lies I would go to those sites. You can get your hate on there without the pretending to be a "progressive" horseshit you get here.

This is suppose to be a democratic party supporting site HA what a joke!

[Gothmog]

51. Why go to the Free Republic when you can see the same material here

[Iliyah]

63. Ditto!

Everything spewed by RWers are here.

[Sparkly]

68. Exactly!

Who need rightwing fanatics when you have self-proclaimed "leftist" fanatics?

(PS - they aren't "leftist," but like to think they are.)

[COLGATE4]

83. And with even better grammar.

[Sparkly]

87. Could be a great slogan!

"Democratic Underground: Free Republic, with better grammar."

[COLGATE4]

89. I like it!!!!

[workinclasszero]

98. Love it!

Now pin it to the front page to warn new folks looking to support the democratic party and its presidential candidate Hillary Clinton!

[uponit7771]

91. lol

[TwilightZone]

117. *snort*

[uponit7771]

90. +1

[Bobbie Jo]

57. True that.

[betsuni]

59. K&R

[polly7]

66. It's no-one's fault but her own that she inspires the same criticism.

If you don't like it .......... she should just cut that shit out - like her push for war and suffering, fracking, etc. etc. etc. That would solve everything.

[Hare Krishna]

70. If Hillary wasn't a candidate, none of that shit would be happening.

n/t

[Hekate]

140. My sides hurt. If ONLY the GOP and MSM had taken Bernie seriously...

The quantity and quality of material on Bernie and Jane is marvelous, and almost all from Vermont reporters. In an alternate universe I would LOVE to see him be the frontrunner and then nominated, just so I could see the takedown after all the RW lies and smear Bernie supporters have used on Hillary Clinton.

But this is real life we are dealing with here. Hillary Clinton has been hated by the GOP forever, and they have NOTHING on her. Yet they continue to spin their fictions.

[still_one]

76. You are absolutely right.

[COLGATE4]

77. Not only a large splash of Alex Jones - chunks of World

Nut Daily also liberally included.

[BootinUp]

78. Too much truth for the faithful I'm afraid.

Its gone to the jury.

[HooptieWagon]

80. Hyperbole much?

[uponit7771]

93. no

[betsuni]

96. Kick with "These Foolish Things"

At least in the song the foolish things are real.

[Jim Lane]

107. Bullshit. Link or slink.

I never look at Red State, so perhaps you can help me by providing links to the Red State pieces that criticize Clinton on the grounds commonly seen on DU, such as:

* She's a war hawk who voted for the IWR.
* She also voted for the so-called PATRIOT Act.
* She's denounced the goal of single-payer health care. (I'll bet single-payer is REAL big on Red State.)
* She isn't willing to push hard enough on combating climate change, as shown by her advocacy for fracking while Secretary of State.
* She opposed marriage equality until it had gained ground in the polls.
* She still opposes reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act and raising the federal minimum wage to $15.

The one point where I wouldn't be surprised to find a Red State link is trade policy. Many on the left are against TPP because of its antidemocratic procedures and its substantive effects on the environment, labor rights, etc. Many on the right are against it because of a reflexive xenophobia and hatred of Obama. Nevertheless, I'll hazard a guess (again based on total ignorance of Red State) that the criticisms of Clinton over trade policy are markedly different on the two sites.

I'm a cautious person. It makes me nervous to issue a challenge without knowing what might happen. As I prepare to post this, I find myself tempted to go over to Red State to see what that site is actually like.

But for once I'm taking a chance. I'm guessing, without actual knowledge, that this kind of stuff can't be found on Red State.

Now go ahead and prove me wrong.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

165. Those are some pretty loud crickets!

Hmmmm, wonder why you're being ignored.

[Jim Lane]

167. I admit to a moment of anxiety when I saw I had a response.

I thought, "Uh-oh, I shouldn't have gone out on a limb, maybe someone is providing a bunch of Red State links and making me look like a fool."

You make a cogent observation, so I forgive you for causing my brief unease.

[closeupready]

110. Is the problem you?

Looking at your transparency page, it would appear this is likely:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=173223&sub=trans

[boston bean]

118. Ooh bern!!!

Pfft

[mountain grammy]

112. She voted to give a reckless and incompetent administration the power

to invade a country that had not attacked America. I knew it was wrong. I knew the Bush administration was lying, but Senator Clinton (D-NY) didn't. This is why I supported Obama in 2008, and why I support Sanders in 2016.
I was disappointed when Obama made her Sec of State, and I believed he acknowledged that when he said Libya was his biggest mistake, because, one thing war hawks never do is learn from their mistakes.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/12/barack-obama-says-libya-was-worst-mistake-of-his-presidency

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/04/12/libya-obama-admits-clintons-greatest-moment-was-his-worst-mistake

[TheKentuckian]

116. True. You folks ought to cut it out with the "free stuff" memes, the support of

"muscular" foreign policy, embracing big extraction, rallying around to big too fail, devaluing the environment, drop the disdain for labor and working class people in general, turning a blind eye to election shenanigans, stop supporting dragnet surveillance, cease and desist with excusing and protecting war criminals, reject interventionism, and certainly need to quit with cheering and excusing the flushing of civil liberties to start us in that direction good and proper like.

[frylock]

157. +++

[Warren DeMontague]

162. Thank you.

Exactly.

[John Poet]

120. Nobody's forcing you to come in here.

If that's how you feel about it, you can easily avoid it--
along with your own unseemly whining.

[Blue_Tires]

124. But it's necessary for me to see which posters I should put on ignore...

[Larkspur]

129. Are you Rip Van Winkle?

Many Progressives and Democrats have despised the Clintons for decades. That's is why she did not win the Dem Prez nomination in 2008.

[blackspade]

130. I can see that....

Given all of the RW red baiting and anti-populist hit-jobs that Clintonites are posting these days in an effort to demoralize the left wing of the Party.

[frylock]

137. Does it have to do with the FBI investigation?

Or is it the pay-to-play Clinton Foundation scandal?

[Hekate]

144. Free Republic: Now with Better Spelling and Grammar!

[Il_Coniglietto]

169. Personally, I find it entertaining.

None of what any of us post here impacts the primaries. It's just groups of people yelling at and over each other.

It's not even really about the candidates. It's about being "right" and telling the other folks they're wrong with whatever "proof" the internet provides, using any source that confirms their worldview. Like I've seen more productive conversations between 3-year-olds.

All I know is that one year from now I won't care about any of this. So why take it seriously?

I'll just laugh and enjoy my popcorn

[Starry Messenger]

170. At Red State, they actually oppose Trump tho.

More so than here even, ironically.

[boston bean]

173. It tells ya something doesnt it??