Is It Time To Leave America?

[Yavin4]

8%+ unemployment is rapidly becoming the new normal. We have a Republican party dominated by hot-headed, ignorant, racists like Michelle Bachman. We have a Democratic party that is too weak to stand up for their own principles. Rule by oligarchy has been approved by the SCOTUS. And now, we have to be armed to the teeth.

Is this the kind of country that you want to raise your children in? Is this the kind of nation that you want to grow old in and have to pay for your health care with a pathetic coupon from the govt instead of medicare? Do you want your tax dollars to pay for yet another war in Iran instead of education?

Emigrating to another nation is extremely difficult, but people do it every day when conditions in their native lands get so bad they have no choice. We're nearing that point.

I know some of you will call me a coward and say, "stay and fight". Tell me, how are you going to fight an oligarchy, the religious nut cases, and the bigots who are armed to the teeth all at the same time? With protests? Boycotts? Good luck with that.

I am preparing to leave and live else where.

[CBGLuthier]

1. My wife wants us to leave. We have an offer. I am waiting to see what happens in November.

If that fuck Romney gets in I am so out of here.

[Marrah_G]

2. And go where?

[Yavin4]

7. To A More Civilized, Advanced Nation

Northern Europe. Canada. Heck, Colombia even looks good.

Yes, it's difficult, but it can be done.

[Marrah_G]

13. Good luck to you

I hope you find what you are looking for.

[greytdemocrat]

14. Columbia????

You're joking right???

[Starboard Tack]

108. I think he said Colombia, which is a country.

Columbia is much harder to get into.

[BeHereNow]

16. Linky

http://www.escapeartist.com/

I'm with you- if the entire planet is going to go to hell, thanks to the greed of a few,
I want to be around people who read books, not the morons I see everywhere
behaving as if they were on a reality TV show while never lifting their eyes from their
anti social "texting" culture.

BHN

[Starboard Tack]

110. You might have to search hard to find a non-texting place.

Great link though!

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Rate of intentional homicide is Colombia is 33 per 100,000. US is 4.8

How is that good?

[caseymoz]

105. There are problems with this.

Racism and xenophobia are hardly a restricted to the US. You will be a foreigner there. And you are totally misinformed if you think other countries treat immigrant people better. In fact, despite anti-immigrant groups here and despite it's low scores on most social measures already cited, the US treats its legal immigrants better than almost every other country treats theirs (if not every country.) Not only that, the US is not very popular now. You will be a lightning rod for anti-US attitudes. Whenever the US does something stupid, your neighbors will hold you responsible. This is all true in subtle ways even in Canada.

Plus, since you're foreign born, don't think you're voice is going to count for anything with the government of the country you move to. It isn't. Depending on where you go, you also can't count on that for your children either.

I can understand the sentiment, though. I've thought of emigrating. Thought of it, but since I'm in poverty, I'd have to arrive as a refugee, which is hard enough. I'll wait until the humanitarian disaster hits and ride the wave out then.

[KurtNYC]

118. All true.

Basically if you are going to leave your home country then it better be because of total persecution.

You will trade the set of problems you know for a new and broader set. You will lose at least 25% of your earning power and your experience and qualifications will also be down graded or erased.

[randome]

120. Thanks to both of you for pointing this out.

I agree that someone should have very personal and very cogent reasons for leaving the country, not just because they don't like what they hear on the evening news.

And there are plenty of places in America today that are more progressive than others.

[KurtNYC]

121. I turned off the evening news 5 years ago

and I felt so much better, right away. Saw it mentioned in this thread that one of the things a person liked about not living in the USA was not watching our "news." People don't need to leave to get rid of the MSM news. Just turn it off.

There are good people everywhere. If you have 5 good friends then almost any place is tolerable (even Los Angeles).

[randome]

122. Wow. Well said.

[Taverner]

158. Consider New Zealand if you get the chance

[Brickbat]

3. Alrighty then.

[Robb]

4. So, how much do you owe?

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1984225#1986599

[Yavin4]

5. Personally. I Have Zero Debts.

Zero.

[graham4anything]

6. France

I would go to France but only if the entire family would go too.

however, the better way is to keep voting for the democrats and eventually the 10% gain
every few years will make for a better world but it will take time

demographics prove it
if we all stick together and don't let the minor issues get in the way as only apathy can beat us and its a known fact, republican/tea/libertarians only win when the voters sit on their hands and stay home.

Even if you think it stinks, wear a clothespin on your nose like writer Robert parry said recently, and he broke the iran/contra scandal.

Was life easy for past generations? But we will prevail.

[Yavin4]

10. Past Generations Did Have It Worse, But We're Regressing Back Into Their Time

Meanwhile, other nations continue to advance.

[graham4anything]

17. we have to believe we will too

eventually.

Demographics will be the savior though, if we can hold on

[siligut]

126. Some nations have a base that allows them to advance.

America is relatively new and a very bad contingent, that has festered, is trying to make America into their new Atlantis.

They are a loud minority. They think they have it in the bag, they aren't hiding any longer.

[randome]

127. We have let ourselves be cowed by those loud mouths.

Or rather our political representatives have. And the less they hide, the easier it is to turn things around.

I truly believe we are doing that now. I am not being optimistic because optimism spoils one's view of Reality.

It's a slow, sea change but I do believe things are getting better.

Republicans know they can't turn back the health care law. They know they can't turn back gay rights, it is advancing despite Santorum and all his ignorant, classless speeches.

It gets better. I truly believe that.

[Doctor_J]

39. You're dreaming

I'm in my 50's, and there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that "voting" is going to reverse the slide into fascism in my life time. As for the demographics, we've been hearing for more than 10 years how the Latino influx in Texas is going to make that a blue state. How's that going?

Please wake up. If you want to have any change of making a difference, you have to first admit the reality of the current predicament.

[johnnie]

8. "I know some of you will call me a coward "

Naw, I will call you a goofball, but not a coward. Maybe you could move to Oz, that wizard is pretty cool.

[Hissyspit]

77. ?

[virgogal]

9. Adios ! I wish you well.

[RebelOne]

11. I am retired and would love to move to Great Britain,

but my sole income is social security, and I would never be able to move there. I have visited the British Isles twice and know how expensive it is.

[Warpy]

27. That's the problem with all of Europe

It's just too expensive for most of us. I'm living on interest and dividends now without Social Security and will have a very tidy income with it and Europe is still too expensive.

I've been looking at Mexico (it's not all going crazy) and Ecuador as my first choices. I'm just not sure I could tolerate the climate in Mexico or the increased altitude (2000 feet higher than where I am) in Ecuador.

[tabasco]

49. Food is cheaper in Germany than in the US.

My gf has an apartment for rent in the Hunsruck for 300 euro.

[spinbaby]

53. I'd love to move to Germany

But I have family ties that keep me here, as do most of us.

[deaniac21]

170. It weighs more too!

[BeHereNow]

12. We went to Ojai yesterday to see the beautiful Julie Christensen in an intimate theater-

It was like being in another country.

I would settle for living there, or somewhere like it.

But for those who can do it- here is the link on HOW, I've posted repeatedly on DU
for a decade.

http://www.escapeartist.com/

BHN

[flamingdem]

15. How are Real Estate prices or rentals in Ojai?

Is it still a new age mecca or has that evolved? I'd like to check it out some day.

[BeHereNow]

19. They fluctuate wildly...I saw listings for trailers for $64K and homes for millions.

What I really like is the sense of community- doesn't seem to matter if you are
a struggling artist or a famous actor/actress.

Yeah it does have the "Woo-woo" side but even the people there make fun of it in
a gentle way.

You should visit- really, it's another world- SO beautiful.

BHN

[flamingdem]

24. It sounds a bit like Topanga but further from LA

is better for peace of mind and affordability. Thanks, I am going to plan a trip, it's not to far away for me. I saw a documentary about a famous ceramic artist, a woman whose name I can't recall, but it showed some of the community spirit you mentioned.

[BeHereNow]

28. Beatrice Wood- her studio is still there, right as you hit town off the 150.

I treasure her book- "I Shock Myself."
I am a ceramicist, among other arts, and I would love to live in a
supportive, creative community.

LA is a cesspool of rabid roaches crawling over one another when it comes
to the arts, for the most part.

BHN

[Jack Sprat]

34. What we need is a community on DU

A community set aside just for the discussion of expatriot locales, their affordability, their climate, and all the things that one would need to plan a relocation in a foreign land.

Maybe we could move en masse, the whole DU community off-shoring to a new land.

[BeHereNow]

36. +1 There has been talk of this in the past on DU- creating a DU community in RL.

Sounds great to me.

BHN

[flamingdem]

38. I have found websites like that but

it's mostly about selling conferences and advice. The hot places are Panama, Colombia, Equador, Costa Rica.

Finding like minded people is not so easy, I guess that's why we're all here!

[We are Devo]

96. ..SE Asia n/t

[mnhtnbb]

100. As someone who 'bought' Panama, it seems to me that a lot of the ex-pats--

at least in Panama-- are right wing types.

It's one reason I wasn't anxious to move full-time to Panama and we finally
abandoned the idea because making it happen became so difficult.

[6502]

80. +1 - I agree! That's a great idea! BTW... I've already left...

Around 2003-2004, I saw the writing on the wall for the US.
I was making what seemed like wild predictions about what was coming.

I was a regular Cassandra at the time... but, in the end, I stuck to my guns, packed my things and moved to Japan.

Here they have national health insurance that is remarkably similar to Obama's original public option.

Here, schools teach science. No religious doctrine pretending to be science.

Here, I don't worry about things like shootouts in schools, movies, or supermarkets.

And, as a Black man, I find the police here to be polite and professional.

When this expat forum/group is set up, I definitely want to be a part of it!

Note what Hissyspit posted above (Thanks, Hissyspit! ):

[fujiyama]

150. Wow your experience is very interesting

especially as an African American living in Japan. I'd love to hear if you've experienced any racism? I've worked with several Japanese people in the past and always appreciated their attitude of hard work, dedication, and politeness.

[BeHereNow]

31. Where are you? General location...

There are two ways to Ojai- we went through the hills and took the 33 to the 101 home
because the 150 is SO winding- not my idea of a fun drive in the dark.

FYI- there are several weekly, monthly properties available there if you just
wanted to stay a few weeks to get a feel for the place.

It is so charming.
And they have THE BEST family owned Mexican eatery on the entire planet...
Just across the parking lot from the park.
PM me if you take the trip- I might just meet ya there.

BHN

[flamingdem]

37. I'm on the Westside of Lalaland

- and getting tired of the city but can't imagine leaving the state. I will PM you when I get a plan together, probably mid August on. I'm would love to check out galleries and studios.

I just checked the time it takes and was surprised it's only a little over an hour. Not that far at all.

[BeHereNow]

41. From the westside, it is probably best to take the 101 to the 33, but ONLY

in OFF traffic hours- like late at night or before sunrise.
We came home, close to Griffith Park, last night around 11PM and made it in an hour and 15 minutes.
WOULD NOT recommend that route during traffic though.
But hey- DO it, which ever route you chose.

I used to go to Joshua Tree and Pioneer Town every month-
but a bunch of assholes bought every thing up and I just quit going.
So far, Ojai still seems pretty sane- like I said, every body is friendly,
whether famous or struggling.

The Outdoor library is NOT to be believed...
Plus, plenty of horses which is a must for me.

I plan to stay in the states as long as my parents are alive-
and I can not think of a nicer place to live than in that area.

BHN

[flamingdem]

47. Sounds inspiring. I spent time in

Vermont and miss that countrified community feeling. Friendly is kind of rare in LA. I'm guessing I'll like it but yes will have to pick travel times with care!

[whatchamacallit]

116. Topanga Boy here!

[Arugula Latte]

18. I daydream about leaving every day.

However, it's hard to leave family, let alone get a good emigration opportunity.

[Evoman]

153. You can come stay with me, if it ever gets too bad. I only have one spare room though.

[Arugula Latte]

155. Thank you! :)

Family of four + three cats and a bunny comin' your way!

[Evoman]

156. The bunny and cats can stay in my room!

[Arugula Latte]

159. Hide your wires...

The bun chews 'em.

[TomClash]

20. Where will you go? Nt

[Jack Sprat]

21. Heck yeah.

And if you will adopt me as a son, I can go with you. I once took a tour near Berne, Switzerland. It was so healthy looking and beautiful. Even the old people looked great. When can we leave?

[riverbendviewgal]

22. I love Canada

Most people think Harper will be voted out in the next election. My son moved to England and loves it. He always tells me that it feels so good to not hear all that American news.

It is a different way of life in Canada and England.

People feel safer and they are kinder to each other.

[BeHereNow]

26. +1 This country has become vicious.

There ARE countries where people ARE kind and gentle- we are not on that list.
Not even close.

BHN

[graywarrior]

42. My sister has lived in Nova Scotia for 30 years and invited us to move there

I'm seriously considering it.

[riverbendviewgal]

71. Nova Scotia is sooooo beautiful

and the people are so nice.. You should consider it.

[graywarrior]

94. Yes, it is! I've spend several months there visiting her and I love the fishing towns

[adigal]

152. I have been thinking about nova scotia also

When I retire, I would love to buy a place up there!

[shanti]

62. back in the late 1800's

both sides of my family came to the u.s. via another country: france/uruguay/u.s. and england/canada/u.s. they only spent less than 20 years in the middle countries before coming here. it was a long time ago, but i wish there was some way that i could emigrate back via family ties

[Efilroft Sul]

79. So does Sid Dithers

[MrSlayer]

25. I want to leave too. This country is done.

I just don't have the means to make a move, which is just how they want it of course. But I'm starting to think that if I'm going to be poor I might as well go be poor somewhere else. Scandanavia sounds just right for me.

It doesn't really even matter who wins the election because as 2008 showed us, even when "we" win, we still lose. We needed radical change and we had the majorities to do it but "our" guys bent over backwards to avoid doing anything meaningful, to seek middle ground and be bipartisan. They were scared to death to do what they were elected to do and seemed relieved when they got the shit kicked out of them in the midterms. It meant they could go back to the empty rhetoric and lip service and saying "we want to but we can't", all the while knowing they don't want to do anything but serve their owners.

I'm now out of work for a full year with no prospects in sight. I've worked only seven months out of the last twenty-four. And as bad as I have it, I know lots of people that have it worse. I hate it here anymore. So much ignorance and stupidity. So much crab barreling and divisiveness.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Which countries have you visited and which did you like the best?

Just wondering.

[4th law of robotics]

30. People from both parties say this when things aren't going their way

rarely do they follow through.

Romney wins: liberals say they're going to canada, conservatives call them traitors.
Obama wins: conservatives say they're going to canada, liberals call them traitors.

It's just childish.

[sendero]

32. There are a few places....

.. where one could objectively say things are better. But not many. And most of them don't want you unless you have a lot of money or some specialized skill they need.

Good luck.

[Shankapotomus]

33. Instead of leaving

how about preparing for a peaceful dissolution of the nation. Maybe, instead of fighting and yelling at each other, we should sit down with representatives from the right and say "Look, it's not working between us. Let's plan out a peaceful separation without stepping on each others toes."

[grasswire]

56. they won't let us go

red states need our economic subsidy

[Arugula Latte]

124. They only want to trample us into the dust, not have civilized discourse.

[BeHereNow]

136. Have you watched the latest Bill Moyers with Chris Hedges? You'll LOVE it.

He basically says the same thing- there aint gonna be nothing left of the US
by the time the global cartel is done raping and pillaging this country-

Its a GREAT interview, here is a link if you want to see it:
http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-capitalism’s-‘sacrifice-zones’/

Pretty hard hitting and definitely very sobering.

BHN

[Curmudgeoness]

35. The answer to how to fight it can be found in a song.

"Teach the children quietly, for some day sons and daughters, will rise up and fight while we stood still."

[Blue_In_AK]

40. I already did.

I live in Alaska.

[southernyankeebelle]

43. Before you decide to do something like that make sure you want to do that. I have

lived overseas and there are big adjustments to make especially if you have children. Besides that right now all over the world are having financial problems. Think twice.

[whatchamacallit]

44. yes.

[FrodosPet]

45. In the infamous words of Curly Bill Brocius

[BeHereNow]

48. Bwahahahah! Brilliant post FrodosPet!

Love it!
BHN

[zappaman]

93. HA!

Perfect!

[oldhippie]

46. I have a couple of different escape plans .......

.... which I continue to flesh out. Depending on what scenario unfolds I will have a couple of options.

Would you think it is a good idea to stash some emergency funds in an offshore account?

[randome]

50. What a bunch of malarky.

The GOP's old, white men are dying out. They can't even keep their current clown car from crashing into the other clown cars they have going.

Palin was not vetted. Romney was not vetted. They are showing all the signs of a party about to fade into the background.

In addition, the truth about climate change will soon be unavoidable. Who do you think people will look to, then? The Republicans who refused to help? No. I think change is in the air.

I am NOT being optimistic. I think we will see significant -and positive- change soon, beginning with Obama's re-election.

If you want to see the world, fine, but don't bother telling us you're doing it because you're giving up. All that does is spread the meme that we should ALL give up.

And that's not your decision to make.

[BeHereNow]

51. What you fail to recognize is this:

For every old pasty white man that should have died ten years ago,
there are a THOUSAND roaches in the GOP woodwork, who are far more insane,
set to take the old guards place.

Don't give up- continue to dream- collective delusion is the quota they count on.

But for heaven's sake, don't criticize the realists for knowing the lights are about
to go out.
America is a failed experiment.
It's OVER- prepare.
You have NO ONE representing you pal.
Wake up.
BHN

[randome]

59. Giving up to roaches is not admirable.

Prepare? What, I should be buying guns and stocking ammunition? That kind of preparation?

No, thanks, I'll keep pushing to improve things.

You can keep your own little dream of fascist dictators coming to get you if that's your cup of tea. But I prefer to look at Reality. Things are changing. We should not give up.

[BeHereNow]

63. You need to study the masters, and the prophets... here is one:

&feature=related

Good night and good luck-
BHN

[randome]

68. Like I said: Reality. Not a music video.

I'm sure you're full of touchy-feely wisdom of the ages but that doesn't help people here and now.

[6502]

81. I am one who has already left...

... even that I am far away, I still vote and hope for things to improve.

I voted for Obama...
And I will vote for him again.
He is right now our best and last hope.

But, do not begrudge us who had the foresight to see the holes in the ship early on.
Do not begrudge us for acting early.

Do not begrudge those who had hope and now choose to leave with what little they have left.

Look around you.

If not for the surprise decesion by Justice Roberts, you wouldn't even have health care.

By leaving the US depending on where they can gain residency, they would immediately gain public health care at low cost. There are women in the US who now because of the poor economy are putting off having children. If they move to some countries in the EU they could receive coverage enough to support having a child.

Some people don't have time to wait.

My family and friends used to suggest to me to stay and stick things out and see how it turns out.

Well, look at the America we have today.

I know that it's not Obama's fault.
But, even I as a man have my own window of time within which I can raise a child.

Can I wait 5 years?
10 years?
Could my wife?

No.

Don't begrudge us.

We don't begrudge you for staying.
We worry about you.
We understand why you want to.

But at least, have a backup plan.

Before some of the countries in Central and South America fell into great divides between a small group of wealthy and masses of poor, they had a real middle class. They had their time, too, when some saw the writing on the wall and tried to fight for change. For the most part, they lost.

There is no guarantee that we will win the fight in the US either.

So, don't begrudge us.
As you fight for change, have a backup plan for escape.

[randome]

84. Do what you need to do.

But there are no guarantees anywhere. Not everyone is miserable in America. DU is the echo chamber that magnifies the negatives.

We have plenty of problems. So do other countries.

And there are plenty of other areas in America that one can move to.

[whatchamacallit]

54. Lol!

[Warren DeMontague]

58. I agree 100%.

Optimism isn't fashionable in some circles, I know, but I do think there are several very positive trends happening now.

The world is becoming more connected, the public is more progressive... We have big problems but also big opportunities.

[randome]

61. The Internet has changed the game in a lot of ways.

Not everyone can keep up with the changes and those are the ones who show the most pessimism, from what I can see.

Not understanding the world is not the same as thinking it's all going to hell.

[Doctor_J]

65. Positive trends?

wow. There's denial, and you passed that long ago.

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Yep. Lots of positive trends. The world is getting more peaceful, for one.

[Doctor_J]

64. just keep telling yourself that

I am astounded how many people have convinced themselves of this lie. They've been old, white, and reactionary for years, and their election numbers keep getting bigger, not smaller. Texas is half Hispanic and still bright red. No one is stopping them from disenfranchising anyone they feel might vote Dem. Your prediction that an Obama re-election (right now about a 50-50 shot) will somehow turn the country around is so demented, I wonder if you're a mole. Not only has the president failed to stand up to any far right initiatives during his 3.5 years (including the two during which he had Dem congress), but all of the polls show that the next Congress is going to be worse. He is weak, "centrist" (meaning far to the right of Ronald Reagan), and completely incapable of leading people to do anything except show up at the polls.

"change is in the air"

Jesus Christ.

[BeHereNow]

66. +1,000,000

Like I said, the country is in the grips of mass delusion.
It is truly alarming and a more than valid reason to get the hell out
or at least somewhere safe, OFF THE RADAR.
BHN

[randome]

69. I said a re-election will begin to turn things around.

And the 'right initiatives' are only what you decide they are, right? If some of you don't get Utopia handed to you on a platter, you think the world is going to hell.

Like children who don't want to play with others, fine, take your toys and 'go home' to some other home like the OP suggested.

It's never as simple as just leaving. Or if it is to you, then maybe you weren't of much value to the country in the first place.

[girl gone mad]

74. People don't live for thousands of years.

Our individual time on earth is limited and each of us must make the best of it. If that means emigrating from of a rapidly decaying country run by neolib/neocon fools, so be it.

[6502]

82. +1 well said.

[randome]

85. It does not seem like America is 'rapidly decaying' to me.

We have problems. Some of them are being addressed. Others NEED to be addressed.

I don't have any problems with people leaving if they want. But why 'brag' about it on DU? It's like some want support for their decision and DU, being the echo chamber it is, is a poor way to gauge support.

Every country has problems. And there are plenty of places in America where one can choose to live, too.

[Doctor_J]

106. Brilliant analysis

My family joined the freedom marches. I myself was at the Iraq War protests and an OWS gathering (which was and continues to be a colossal waste of time that could be spent on useful pursuits) and give time & money to all of the anti-fascist organizations.

OTOH you sit among the rapid descent into 3rd world status and proclaim, "Things are getting better". If you really like the way the country's headed, and want to sit and smile while it falls the last little ways into a teabagger "utopia", it's probably you, and not I, who are useless.

[randome]

109. I honestly don't think the tea baggers will be around for much longer.

They have helped sabotage the GOP to the point where they can't seem to put a decent presidential campaign together.

Palin and now Romney shows how inept they have become.

I do NOT like the way our country is headed. But I also don't see that we're becoming a third world country very soon. I think that's pessimism and defeatism.

If you're in the technology field and you're mobile, you don't have to worry about finding a job. Technology innovation has had as much to do with employment upheaval as the ignorant and destructive policies of the last 30 years.

Much more remains to be done. Another poster pointed out that other countries typically have as much racist and xenophobic attitudes -if not worse- than America does.

I still say that if you have ties to people in this country then it's well worth fighting for.

[MADem]

160. +1,000,000! nt

[Bigmack]

52. We tried to emigrate to Canada...

They told us... in a polite, Canadian manner... that we were too old and that all we'd do is be a burden to their health care system.

If we had a lot of money to invest in Canada, they'd make an exception.

[FrodosPet]

146. A lot of people find that out

They believe they can run to another country with little more than pocket money, say "I am here!" , and be let in.

I know from my own research that I cannot get emigrate to any country I would want to emigrate to because I don't have a "needed" skill or a 1%er's bank account.

YMMV

[Bigmack]

149. We have enough assets so that we have a lot more than pocket money...

... so pocket money isn't one of the problems.

You need around $15K for a family of 2... and job guarantee.

Since we're retired...no job.

So....

Rumors abound that monied Asians can immigrate easily.

Looking at it from the Canadian perspective, I wouldn't let us in, either.

[Anansi1171]

55. I have had the emigration bug at many moments in this past year...

...but we can go the world over and never hide from what America would become if we leave her. Our fault lies in our unwillingness to use the power of voluntary association and moral action to our advantage; and to DEoccupy those aspects of America that do not serve us. Moral example is difficult, be we go along for the ride far to often.

This is OWS great failing thus far...its time to aggregate, build, create and foster the alternate American civilization(however small and fledgling) that we desire, and to opt-out from these institutions that are cancerous to our society. The MSM kills this meme because it is the one that can win. A New World IS possible if the left would only be...well...PROGRESSIVE!

[grasswire]

57. welcome to DU, and thanks for the post

Good thoughts, friend.

[Tumbulu]

67. welcome and thanks for your post (nt)

[6502]

83. +1 ... question: where in the US can we go?

[Comrade Grumpy]

119. You could resettle Detroit. Seriously.

I think there are opportunities to create a new kind of arrangement in America's first post-apocalyptic urban landscape.

[BeHereNow]

141. You are correct- there is a small but determined sustainable living community growing there...

People who have been completely wiped out are beginning to organize an
alternative community there- public gardens, renovation and reclaiming
of abandoned houses, houses and so forth.
They are a small, but mighty force!

BHN

Youtube about Earthworks project- inspiring indeed!

[FrodosPet]

147. I would LOVE to see "The City" grow and prosper once again

A lot of people love to hate Detroit. And in some ways, Detroit makes it easy for them

Shows like "Hard Core Pawn", for example, show Detroiters as rude and impatient, sometimes violent. And, yes, you will not have to look very long or hard to find these people.

But you will also find a lot of good, caring people. Perhaps a bit rough around the edges, but they are wonderful folks who deserve a much better situation than what they have now.

[Anansi1171]

130. Emigrate to California, Oregon and Washington for starters...

...richly blue states that have agricultural, technological and creative wealth, are as progressive demographically as states can be in the US but must maintain that demographic and are vulnerable to structural attack by the Right and Red-states to whom that wealth is redistributed to the tune of billions annually(such as Cheney/FERCs deregulation of energy in California during the early 2000's and Schwarzenegger's attempt to open all California Waters to drilling by out-of-state oil companies in exchange for sparing the social safety net post-2008.)

Progressives moving to those states should look to cluster in either urban centers that can be revitalized or (where gentrification makes that impractical because of the cost of housing) in suburban and rural areas where they can use cheaper land, modular housing and a denser development footprint to build communities based on share resources. Approaches could include co-housing,co-transportation,urban agriculture, barter economies and alternatives to cash, work-share approaches like software development "farms" that could provide an "insourcing" alternative that is cost-competitive to work being farmed out to India, China and the Philippines. Smaller-scale manufacturing and agriculture that can both support these communities and feed into larger supply chains. I am not talking communes and kook-shows-these are free, diverse people building a sustainable and safe place to live in connected communities of common interest - and very much a part of the world.

This model could be replicated in "Blue Islands" like Austin, Athens(GA), etc. but all the tools of the movement are there and have been since the 60's- such as "arcology"- which I believe would be the ideal realization of a 21st century civilization that positively addressed its climate and resource challenges sensibly, decades from now. What we have now is a communications revolution that can make these solutions practical and solve the paradox of actually creating longer and more fulfilling lives and much better communities for the many.

We only lack that moment of crystallization- like Neo in the "Matrix" - http://goo.gl/1HPGP - and then resolving to WALK THE PATH!

[Mimosa]

60. Who would take American refugees? LOL n/t

[mnhtnbb]

70. We made serious plans to give ourselves an escape hatch in 2005 and chose Panama.

It took a LOT of work, we have permanent resident visa status there, but after encountering financial problems
in 2006 with the development where where we were going and our house burning down here in 2007, we gave up.

I don't know...after Obama was elected my hubby didn't feel such a need to leave...now we've rebuilt here
and we're 7 years older (70 and 61). I don't know if I really have it in me to start over...again...

Good luck. It takes a lot of work to make it happen.

[DCKit]

73. Admit it, you still care. You didn't spell it "Amercia". nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

75. With 13 generations here, no I'm not going.

My family emigrated here from Middleham, Yorkshire England 400 years ago in 1607, when this was an extremely risky stock venture. I'll see this "experiment" to the end (of me, and/or of it), no matter what that end is. This is where I belong and this is where I will stay, and no current ascendancy of yahoos is going to drive me out. Those before me who lived and died here in all of my families would be too many to number (the most recent immigrant was before the Civil War) they have all had to fight against a lot more than this, this is not even close to being more than I can take. Not by a long shot.

Those who want to be somewhere else though should go there, if they can arrange it.

[xmas74]

128. My family was in 1632.

I have no plans to ever leave this country. Why give up the fight? My family surely didn't give up.

[retrogal]

168. Same here

If my ancestors stayed and stuck it out then so can I. This is my homeland.

[Scootaloo]

76. Finland tempts me

But I'd just hate to be "that guy" who makes everyone speak English, because I'm too old and slow to figure out that bird chirp-chirpy language they have.

[eliminerlesud]

78. Yes it is way past time.

anyone with the resources should leave if you are a kid in school, you should be focused on obtaining a degree in a field that will get you out before it is too late.

If you stay, you best be prepared for everything and anything.

Things will continue to get worse as long as this nation continues to pander to the lowest common denominator.

The battle lines are being drawn folks, are you really prepared?

[BeHereNow]

139. Spot on and WELCOME- here is a great interview with Chris Hedges on Bill Moyers for you!

Consider it my personal "Welcome Wagon" gift to you!
I love when new realists join our community!

http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-capitalism’s-‘sacrifice-zones’/

Introduction:
"Full Show: Capitalism’s ‘Sacrifice Zones’
July 20, 2012
There are forgotten corners of this country where Americans are trapped in endless cycles of poverty, powerlessness, and despair as a direct result of capitalistic greed. Journalist Chris Hedges calls these places “sacrifice zones,” and joins Bill this week on Moyers & Company to explore how areas like Camden, New Jersey; Immokalee, Florida; and parts of West Virginia suffer while the corporations that plundered them thrive.

“These are areas that have been destroyed for quarterly profit. We’re talking about environmentally destroyed, communities destroyed, human beings destroyed, families destroyed,” Hedges tells Bill.

“It’s the willingness on the part of people who seek personal enrichment to destroy other human beings… And because the mechanisms of governance can no longer control them, there is nothing now within the formal mechanisms of power to stop them from creating essentially a corporate oligarchic state.”"

BHN

[randome]

140. "forgotten corners of this country". You think these corners don't exist in every country?

By all means, leave if your lives are so desperate. But I would hate to see someone leave simply because they don't have the willpower to turn off the TV news.

[BeHereNow]

142. How rude! Stomping into the middle of my welcome to a new DU member?

The interview is an hour long, so I know you have not watched it.
So please, until you do, stay out of my welcoming any new DUer.

You DON'T have the information many of us do- and yet you insist on remaining
ignorant and pushing yourself into the conversation without any knowledge of
what we are talking about.

I repeat-
RUDE.

Stay off of any of my welcome subthreads, show some respect for new members;
I welcome discussion with you any where else, but NOT here.

My welcome should not have been used for your opportunity to crash in like
a bull in a China Shop.

How RUDE.

BHN

[randome]

143. No, I won't stop posting information I think is relevant.

But since I made my point, I don't really have anything more to say on the subject.

[BeHereNow]

144. You are dancing on the line of stalking friend- better go read the TOS and CS again.

I repeat, stop jacking my Welcome to a new DUer or I will
alert on your behavior, now get lost.

BHN

[Puglover]

86. We are leaving.

Ecuador. My house is about 1/2 constructed. I love the country. I love the people. I love the climate.

"Ecuador is the first nation on Earth to endow Mother Nature with constitutional rights. While the media and multinational interests have complained about this type of “left wing” policy, the inhabitants of Ecuador care about their environment and are aware of the inherent wealth it brings to their citizens. “Let the oil companies whine and complain and let the citizens establish nature’s rights”, say the Ecuadorian people and their policy makers. This is the type of social awareness is a pleasure to live and breathe."

It like any other place has it's faults but I think it's pretty cool. I cannot wait.

[We are Devo]

101. Cuenca? n/t

[Puglover]

115. Nope

Cotacachi.

[IndyPragmatist123]

87. Moving to another country is not easy

If you want to go to Mexico or SE Asia, sure. You can hop on a plane (or drive) and everything will be alright.

If you want to move to a European nation, Canada, or Australia....good luck. I've seen first-hand the hurdles that one has to go through to get a work visa in France. I had a company ready to hire me, but they were required to post the job locally for 30 days after offering me the position. They did, but even after this, my visa application was rejected because they felt there was likely a French citizen that could do the job as well.

Unless you are retiring or have a job that is in extremely high demand, you are going to have trouble getting into any country that you would consider better. The recession is global, they don't want foreigners coming in and taking jobs that could go to citizens.

I know a lot of people that have considered leaving the USA. They have realized that it isn't that easy. You need to have a highly skilled job or a lot of money. Most people do not have that and would have little hope of getting a work-visa anywhere in the EU.

[CTyankee]

88. My grandson is bi-lingual and I'm hopeful that he can go to Europe and use his fluent Italian

on the Continent in some way. I would love to see him marry a woman there and to be able to stay. When I was in Florence in 2010 I met several American women who had studied art there and married Italian men. They were lecturing on art and enjoying their lives, raising their kids. They were in no rush to go back to the U.S.A. I don't think my grandson will be an art historian but with another language and a desire to live there, he could find a way...

[Doremus]

131. We're going to take a different route. DH's grandparents came here from Italy.

We're going to get him dual citizenship, and subsequently our kids.

If/when we emigrate we can live/travel wherever we'd like in the EU.

I doubt we'll actually move there but having options provides peace of mind.

[MADem]

161. You're competing with the entire EU and a massive chunk of of Israel, as well, for a job in France.

Yes--Israel, and no - I am not crazy. Many Israelis have "right of return" to--of all places--Germany, based upon their grandparents' citizenship, unfortunate dentention and ultimate murder. Many are taking 'em up on it, not out of loyalty to the aulde sod, but for the EU passport.

Because people will look askance, I offer a link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4076384,00.html

According to figures provided by the German Embassy, in the past few years about 7,000 Israelis have applied for a passport every year. More than 70,000 such passports have been granted since 2000....


These figures point to an amazing growth in the popularity of the German passport, considering the fact that Germany and its symbols are still banned by quite a few Israelis – mainly Holocaust survivors or relatives of Holocaust victims.

The article, which quotes experts and academics, provides a series of reasons for the German passport's popularity among Israelis: Former citizens feel a real desire to regain a citizenship robbed from them or from their forefathers; Israelis are no longer ashamed to possess a German passport; and the younger generation can gain personal benefits.

Israelis with a German passport don't need a visa to enter the United States, can receive a scholarship for academic studies abroad, can enter countries which Israelis are banned from – and money, the study rules, erases any ideology.

They can also compete for jobs across the EU and edge out those Americans or Canadians who are angling for work over that way.

[slackmaster]

89. Please do.

[randome]

90. Succinct!

[woo me with science]

91. Careful.

Owe The IRS? Bill Would Suspend Passport Rights For Delinquent Taxpayers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521950

Should we expect more like this for student loans, etc.?


The US used to worry only about keeping people OUT.

[Caretha]

92. 8% - I don't think so

Is It Time To Leave America?

8%+ unemployment is rapidly becoming the new normal.

The real unemployment rate is closer to 15% - the 8% meme is political propaganda driven by the corporate owned MSM. It helps people believe that there is still a chance to survive and live a normal "American middle-class life".

I think we do ourselves a disservice by repeating the 8.1% lie. It reinforces the propaganda, and makes it more unlikely that our government has to focus on the real issues facing this country and find solutions. Until then, you will have people that do think you are a coward, or as one poster put it, a "goofball".

For some, I believe it is the absolutely right decision to immigrate and for others it will be absolutely impossible. My family came from Wales & Ireland. The ones who came from Ireland and left their families and friends were the lucky ones. My Dad used to tell us kids....Never forget the potatoe famine!

[randome]

95. Plenty of people are surviving. Some are even thriving.

It depends on the industry. If you're in the technology field and you're willing to relocate, then you never need to worry about a job in America.

The reality is that technology innovation has as much to do with the unemployment rate as does the ignorant and irresponsible policies promulgated by Republicans.

Leaving America is for those who:
* Have no family.
* Have no ties to their neighborhoods.
* Are retired and have the money to move.

But I think it's disingenuous to say that they are leaving solely because they don't like political philosophies currently holding sway.

[Caretha]

107. Think what you want

But don't expect others to all think as you do. Disingenous? That's very narrow of you, but I find a lot of what you post to be along that vein. I get tired of people who "should" on others - in other words - You "should" think like me or I will find you disengenuous. (shakes head)

You probably mean no harm, but you have an edge to you that shows much disapproval of others with a healthy dose of jugementalism thrown in.

[randome]

111. Right.

I don't expect anyone to think like me. But posting about what a joy it might be to leave the country confirms the points I made, which is that if you're going to leave, go, don't post on DU to validate your decision.

Any post on a forum like this is, in essence, proposing alternate ways of thinking. Or, the way you framed it, how people 'should' think.

But that's just a matter of semantics.

As another poster pointed out, many countries have worse racist and xenophobic attitudes than America so I think it's important to keep things like that in mind. And not to simply give up because you haven't been able to establish ties to people in your own country.

[woo me with science]

97. +10000

[warrprayer]

129. +1 n/t

[Fawke Em]

98. I wish I could.

Too old (42) to be offered a job abroad, probably, and already married to an American, so I can't go to EuropeanMingle.com or something to find a husband.

How else can someone immigrate to another country?

[Trillo]

99. There's no place in the world free from transnational corporations,

and presumably the politicians they purchase.

[mattclearing]

102. I left in 2006. n/t

[mnhtnbb]

103. Where did you go? Are you working or retired?

[mattclearing]

104. I moved to Australia.

I am very much working. It is a pretty good place to be. Not perfect, but more progressive than the U.S. in many ways.

[MADem]

162. The Australian Military is hiring--Americans. They've got to have experience, though.

http://www.milpages.com/blog/770933

[mattclearing]

166. I have a great job, thanks.

If I wanted to work for defense contractors I'd have stayed in DC.

[MADem]

169. No, I think you misunderstand. Unless you've got VERY recent military experience,

you personally are not suitable for this work. Further, they don't want "defense contractors," they are hiring people to actually join the military, and serve in uniform. Australia is assembling a part-mercenary military, in essence.

My remarks were generic to the hiring opportunity available in Australia, as a point of information--I was not urging you to sign up with the Australian military as a uniformed servicemember.

[Snoozin]

112. That's food for thought...

If I were able to create a better situation for myself and family. Yeah, I'd leave this country. Why not, many others leave thier countries. Somewhere warm

[ProdigalJunkMail]

113. yes...coward...milquetoast...please leave n/t

[Loge23]

114. Strange to see the "love it or leave it" crowd here!

Clearly the time has come to acknowledge what the statistics, many U.S. citizens, and many people from other countries already have: The good 'ol U.S.A. is now just the 'ol U.S.A.
Anyone who travels through out the world - be it one or two countries or many - will notice that they are well-populated with happy, proud people who may want to visit America, but are in no apparent hurry to live here. There are, obviously, good alternatives out there.
One may argue that it's the duty of patriotic (before that word was subverted by republicans) Americans to stay and help build a better place. But that task is increasingly proving to be too daunting as we see an enormous slide in wealth distribution to the elite, a breakdown of public services - including demonizing public sector workers, and a sharp decline in quality of life measures that are being exceeded by other countries.
The sad truth for America is that the bigots and ignorant have really gotten a hold of power in many states. Supported and encouraged by the elite (as they laugh their way to the bank), the rest of us are derided as "socialists" or "liberals" (yes that has become a bad name).
The pursuit of happiness: it may lead elsewhere these days.

[randome]

117. I agree with you that times have changed.

But there are hundreds of thousands of people wanting to get into America every year. And as another poster pointed out, many other countries are more racist and xenophobic than many cities here.

I don't believe in 'love it or leave it'. I just don't see the point of encouraging others to leave who clearly haven't established ties in this country.

If they don't have ties here, what makes them think it will be different in another country?

And many people who want to leave -or have already left- point out that the reason for leaving is that they don't agree with certain political philosophies.

Disagreement with philosophy doesn't seem like a very cogent subject with which to uproot oneself. Now if they are personally unhappy for some other concrete reason other than wanting to bask in the knowledge that they are among their 'own kind', I'd like to hear that.

[Zax2me]

123. In the middle of likely 8-year Obama presidency?!

Makes no sense.

[Life Long Dem]

125. You have states within this country with the lowest unemployment rates

Unemployment Rates for States
June 2012
Rank State Rate
1 NORTH DAKOTA 2.9
2 NEBRASKA 3.8
3 SOUTH DAKOTA 4.3
4 OKLAHOMA 4.7
4 VERMONT 4.7
6 NEW HAMPSHIRE 5.1
7 IOWA 5.2
8 WYOMING 5.4
9 MINNESOTA 5.6
10 VIRGINIA 5.7
11 MASSACHUSETTS 6.0

http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

[Doremus]

132. Which re-revised revision of the formerly revised formula?

I put little faith in government unemployment numbers, sorry.

Whenever the numbers increase they simply change the formula.

If the actual unemployment percentage were known, people might actually start paying attention to what the plutocrats are up to.

[DainBramaged]

133. England is looking more and more inviting

I am tired of the violence here, tired of the Right-wing politics, tired of the Fundies, tired of the Gay hate, tired of the ignorance.


At least I can bring my Chevy with me....

[MADem]

163. The steering wheel will be on the "wrong" side and you'll go through hell getting

the MOT for the thing because they will go over it with a fine-toothed comb. Plus the vehicle excise duty will probably roll your eyes back as well. Once you're "in" with a MOT testing garage you're ok, usually, if you give them your business regularly.

I won't even go into the price of gas--if you don't have tax free coupons or a place to buy it on a military installation, you'll be stunned at the cost of a fill-up. That's the truth throughout Europe.

Try northern Maine. You can pop over the border to Canada any time you'd like, the air is pure, the people are decent and mind their own business, and the pace is slow and easy. Also, you can buy a house and a bit of land for not too much money, particularly in the more remote areas.

[HockeyMom]

134. One generation (great-grandparens) removed from being granted Irish citizenship

Oh, well.

[piperpibroch]

135. Wherever you go ....

there you are.

[cleanhippie]

137. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[NYC Liberal]

138. Not for me. I like it here. My life is here.

And I'd rather fight here than run away.

But to each their own. Everyone's situation is different. Everyone should do what is best for them.

[tjwash]

145. try China or India...no oligarchies or corporate control there

Let us know how green the grass is

[FrodosPet]

148. Why doesn't anyone mention Venezuela?

It is a worker's paradise. Low cost gasoline, socialized medicine and food distribution, and warmer than the U.S.

[randome]

154. Also a higher murder rate.

[MADem]

164. All the Venezuelans I know live in Puerto Rico! nt

[jberryhill]

151. No, you should at least wait until daylight

[Taverner]

157. Expats are as patriotic as any other Americans

[MADem]

165. I lived half my life outside of USA, and I think this country is one of the best places in the world

I had no choice in the matter--I was dragged along part of the time as a kid, and worked all over the world in my jobs. I was always eager to get home, though. I enjoy seeing other countries, even living in them, but even with the issues and controversies this nation faces, there's a definite ease to living in USA.

And other countries? They're in the political shits, too and their economies are faltering as well--this is a world-wide problem we're enduring, here. UK is hardly free of contention, nor is Italy or France or a host of other nations. The guy running Canada is like Bush with a few more brain cells!

It all looks rosy if you don't dig down too deep!

[MineralMan]

167. There are several flights leaving every hour.

Write when you get wherever you're going, won't you?

[NCTraveler]

171. Very happy with the good old US of A

This is the kind of country I want to raise my children in. I love so much about this country. I do wish the best for everyone and believe we should all seek out happiness, so good luck in your endeavors.