I'm Watching Hillary On CBS Sunday Morning. I'm Sorry...

[JimGinPA]

HTF could any reasonable person think she was less qualified than this orange buffoon?

[ariadne0614]

1. If she had male genitals she would be president today. n/t

[Orrex]

3. Or if she declared her fondness for grabbing female genitals.

[LiberalLoner]

7. Big second.

[dalton99a]

8. +1

[nikatnyte]

18. Absolutely

There were many, many factors that worked in Trump's favor, and we've heard (and will continue to hear) them rehashed and reexamined--Russian influence, media false equivalency, low-information voters, voter suppression, voting machine hacking, poorly run Dem campaign, HRC's lack of charisma and identification with "liberal elite", Comey's perfectly timed email announcement, etc. But if Hillary had been a man she would, I believe, have triumphed over all of that. Sexism, like racism, is still a powerful and virulent force in the U.S.

[spooky3]

36. Agree

[karynnj]

41. Two completely contradictory thoughts:

1) This was a change election - and we were the party seen as having been in power -- even though for at 6 of the 8 years, the Republicans controlled the House and for the last the Senate as well. Could it be that everyone misread 2016 and it would be a difficult year for any Democrat to win? Consider that McCain, in 2008, tried to run as a change candidate and he had far fewer ties to Bush - even though Bush and Cheney were not invited to the convention, they remained an albatross around McCain's neck.

2) The election was nowhere as much a landslide as 2008 and in polls in early 2015 before there was any talk of emails, Clinton beat every Republican and got over 60% support as the nominee. Later polls in late 2015 or early 2016, often showed that Biden or Sanders did better in a general election head to head. I would contend that NEITHER of these two men were likely the best we could do if this was a change election. Another Democrat, who was not being investigated as she/he for office and who had not received huge sums of money to speak to Wall Street at a point where her campaign was imminet might have been able to win because they would have HRC's strenghts and positions, but not her baggage.

In 2016, income inequality and the fact that not everyone has shared in periods of prosperity was a top issue. While it is true that every strata improved their economic well being in the Clinton years, it is also true that income inequality greatly increased. An Elizabeth Warren or a Sherrod Brown would have been able to speak to this issue - from their brain,heart and soul. Even as HRC turned against the TPP, which really was her top accomplishment as SoS, many still believed she would actually work for it - tweaked in minor ways - if elected. I FAVOR it, and think an alternative approach was for HRC to run on it explaining why it was needed, but my point is that if we had correctly read the mood on this, she was likely not the best spokesperson.

So two totally contrary opinions - no one could have won -- or someone who fit the anger better might have. The improbable strength of Bernie Sanders suggests the second might be more likely -- even if Bernie himself would have been too extreme to win.

[MichMan]

50. Very rare for the same party to win three elections in a row

Only once in my lifetime has the same party won three elections in a row.

[ehrnst]

56. And she STILL got the votes. Despite such long odds. (nt)

[ehrnst]

55. Actually, voters who voted based on economic anxiety voted for HRC.

Those who voted on cultural anxiety voted for DT.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/white-working-class-trump-cultural-anxiety/525771/

https://www.thenation.com/article/economic-anxiety-didnt-make-people-vote-trump-racism-did/

[Hamlette]

45. The biggest factor, IMO, is racism. Read DT is the First White President by Ta-Neisi Coates

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/
He makes a very convincing argument that this is back lash to a black president. The article is supported by polling and studies on a variety of subjects.

[ehrnst]

57. "Lack of Charisma" had much to do with the fact that she was running while

being old and female, and therefore reminded many men of MOM writ large.

Many of them, as we can see on DU, would never, ever own up to that - probably even to themselves - so all of the lashing out and clinging to manufactured smears about her validated what was really a rather deep, emotional sexism.

All the comments about her feeling "entitled" and "that laugh" in the memes about her "laughing at getting a child rapist back out on the street," and that "when people told her she needed to reach out to Bernie supporters, "she laughed, and said, "I don't need them!!!" Because you know, that's totally something she'd do....

It was like a sexist lefty mirror image of all those racist memes on the right about Obama being "entitled" and "not being what he says" and "incompetent" - rationalization for the disgust and anger they felt at a black man not confirming their stereotypes.

And both left and right denied that they were bigoted by pointing out that they would totes support Ben Carson/ Liz Warren.

[Honeycombe8]

21. I agree. Sad but true. OTOH, would a male have been as accommodating to Trump?

She was very factual, pursued her course, stuck to her guns...but not very assertive or aggressive with Trump, IMO. That's fine. That's her style. She tried to stay above the fold.

But imagine a man at that debate, with Trump encroaching on his territory behind him, making faces. Do you think a man would have felt uncomfortable, as HRC says she was, and not do anything or say anything? Not acknowledge that he's doing something weird? I doubt it.

Not a knock to Clinton. She is who she is, and I like who she is. Factual, straightforward, operates at a high level, respectful of others. But she is a little planned in her approach, whereas some other women wing it a little more, and are more willing to go off script, and are more assertive. (Might as well be, since the opponents are going to call the women b___ches, anyway.)

I hope I'm still alive when we have the first woman President. We are one of the few industrialized nations not to have had a woman leader yet. Imagine. The land of opportunity and equal rights has had only white, wealthy men (mostly older) leaders.

[spooky3]

37. Barack Obama is a person of color.

[BigmanPigman]

22. Damn straight she would!!!!!

[Gore1FL]

47. Maybe, but much of her issue was her surname.

She had a bunch of negatives the right had been building since the 1990s. She had similar "dynasty" problems to what Jeb Bush had in the nomination phase, as well. I am not suggesting that's her fault. i am pointing out that those issues existed.

I suspect Elizabeth Warren would have won with the same physiology but without the issues I mentioned. Of course there is no way to test either of our hypotheses.

[MichMan]

52. I agree

There were a lot of people that were sick and tired of anyone named Clinton or Bush as a political dynasty

[EllieBC]

73. Well hopefully those people are thrilled with what we have now.

Pathetic to be "sick" of the one person who has been the most qualified candidate for the office ever. Now instead we have Trump when we could have had HRC. Thanks, whining folks "sick" of Clinton.

[mdbl]

84. Those who voted for trump because they are sick of clinton

are stuck in bizarro world and you'll never get them out. You could have trump go an grab each one of their crotch's and they would cheer and hold up MAGA signs. Give up on trying to teach them a lesson, won't work.

[white_wolf]

81. I never understood the dynasty argument when applied to Clinton

Her husband left the White House nearly two decades ago and since then we've two different presidents. The Bush's make more sense as we had a father and son and then another son in the primaries.

[MichMan]

86. I think it was because there was continuously a Clinton or Bush either running or elected

I think it was mainly how there was always one right after another since 1980 either as President, VP, or running for president. That's a span of over 35 years

Bush- Clinton- Bush- Clinton (Hillary) /Obama- Clinton/Bush(Jeb)

[Jim Lane]

49. Most of the misogynists vote Republican anyway.

I'm sure there were at least some people who aren't ready for a woman President. As against that, Hillary picked up some votes from people who responded to what she told the Democratic National Convention:

"What an incredible honor that you have given me, and I can't believe we just put the biggest crack in that glass ceiling yet," Clinton said via satellite after a video montage showed the faces of all 44 male presidents before shattering like glass to reveal Clinton waiting to address the convention from New York.

I don't know of any good data about which group of voters was larger, let alone by how much. A lot of people, if surveyed, would deny being bigoted, so it would be hard to get reliable numbers.

[BrooklynTech]

59. There are a lot of reasons why she lost

Her gender is far down on the list.

[EllieBC]

74. After gerrymandering and Russia. Not that far down.

Unless you have some thoughts?

[StevieM]

79. The corrupt FBI and James Comey is at the top of the list. (eom)

[liberalnarb]

88. If we didn't elect Presidents based on an outdated model created to please slave owners

she would be President right now.

[IronLionZion]

89. There were plenty of people who hated Bill too

and they stole the presidency from Al Gore. But I get what you're saying about their sexism against Hillary. I'd like to see what happens if our next election has a different woman candidate if they repeat the same nonsensical attacks.

Somehow other countries have managed to elect women who led them through major wars and epic challenges.

[Thinkingabout]

2. The orange buffoon had to pick the group which he could fool, low information was

his target and remains his target. The listen to the likes of FOX 24 hours a day and day after day because they did not understand everything they heard the day before.

[Zen Democrat]

25. Like he said, "I love the poorly educated."

[nycbos]

4. Allegedly brogressive white male 20 somethings felt repressed by "the establishment"

And thought they were making a brave statement by staying home.

[raging moderate]

51. Yes, I saw a bunch of macho types smirking on TV.

"we need a President with balls, " they snarled.

[ecstatic]

75. Lol @ "Brogressive." nt

[tanyev]

5. I think many knew she was more qualified and hated her because of that.

[still_one]

44. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[haveahart]

46. You win the day. Intelligence envy and sexism. You win!

[WhiteTara]

6. My mother was a secretary to a business

owner and she saw many ways to make him money and he took her advice and did those things and made lots of money...no he didn't give her raises or bonuses. Instead one day he told her that if she were a man, he would make her vice-president of the company. She picked up her purse, told him to go fuck himself and walked out. I didn't know she knew that word and I was a bit shocked when she told me about the incident.

[mnhtnbb]

9. Good for your mom!

The 2016 election was never about qualifications.

Women of my generation (66), like Hillary, can tell story after story after story of women who were smarter, more qualified, better prepared,
and more creative watching less qualified white males being promoted over them throughout their careers.

It was never about Hillary's qualifications; it was always about her lack of male anatomy.

[annabanana]

87. It wasn't that long ago, was it?

These were the paths we were expected to take, (all of which had, as the ultimate destination, wife and mother.)

Secretary
Telephone Operator
Nurse
Teacher
Coed
Cashier
Stewardess (As a child, this was MY favorite. I liked the idea of travelling)
Waitress
Seamstress

[MLAA]

24. Way to go, Mom!

[spooky3]

38. Wish she had had the means to file a sex discrimination

complaint. It was and is difficult.

[WhiteTara]

42. This was in the mid 60s and

women were not given respect.

When she worked for an attorney, she realized that people didn't respond to her when she signed her first and last name. She started signing with initials and last name and always got responses.

[spooky3]

48. Unfortunately, this is still true. There was a recent story

In the web about two female entrepreneurs who got better responses when they had their non-existent "partner", Mr. Mann, correspond.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-31/female-entrepreneurs-create-a-fake-male-co-founder/8859282?pfmredir=sm

[rocktivity]

10. More people voted for Hillary than against her

That's the only thing that's kept me from needing to be talked off a ledge.


rocktivity

[ehrnst]

58. Record numbers. (nt)

[aikoaiko]

11. For too many voters he met the one criteria she could not -- not being Hillary Clinton.

And nothing else seemed to matter.

[leftofcool]

16. And no one else mattered

The hell with Blacks, LGBTQ, poor people, Native Americans, Latinos, Asians, Seniors and the disabled. Some (not all) of those poor privileged white kids got to use their protest vote all because they just weren't inspired by the most qualified Democrat.

[Jakes Progress]

12. Too many let the russians roll them.

The FB stories and such attacked her as too crazy liberal to kill her image with conservatives. And they planted all the crap about her being a corporate stooge to rile up the lefties that don't think.

There were still more leftie Americans who think than those that let themselves be used. She won the popular vote.

[CousinIT]

13. No penis to keep her brain in means: unqualified

No matter how well her brain functions as opposed to the orange buffoon.

Repubs would love her if she were brainless a la Sarah Palin / KellyAnne Conway or sociopathic like Betsy DeVos or Ann Coulter. They LOVE brain-dead women and sociopathic/conscienceless ones. But decent, intelligent ones like Clinton? NOPE.

EDIT: And isn't just UNIQUELY AMERICAN for US to choose the unqualified man for the job rather than the exquisitely and comprehensively qualified woman? Happens every day. It's WHO and WHAT we are - and what many of Trump's jock straps would like us to remain.

The rest of us - would like to see someone with their brains above their waist and a conscience for a change, in the Oval Office.

[leftofcool]

14. Bing! Thread winner!

[MLAA]

26. Ping: Excellent judge of Thread winners!😉

[Demit]

40. The bitter irony is, we DIDN'T choose her.

The uniquely American part of the story is the fuckedupness of the Electoral College system.

[LostinRed]

15. She won

3 million people over the clown

[Sunlei]

23. actually Hillary 'won' by 10 million plus if you count the 'sillies' who voted for spoilers.

[njhoneybadger]

17. A person would have to be brainwashed

[yardwork]

19. There's a group of DUers right here this morning complaining about her.

Complaining that the uppity woman dares to charge money for her public appearances, dares to charge people for her books.

In fantasy land, the only politicians pure enough to "earn" votes publish their manifestos on mimeograph machines in the basement and hand them out for free near the young adult non-fiction shelves.

But it's ok that this means Republicans get elected to all the positions of power. Power is bad anyway, as is money. The glorious revolution is coming any day now.

[Skittles]

70. fuck them

propaganda works on more than just repukes

[Progressive dog]

72. To hell with them

and their glorious revolution. The only pure politicians are fictional, real politicians are human.

[JHan]

76. You perfectly described them. Well done. ++++++++++

Down to the naive and hapless "power is bad anyway" crowd.

[Heartstrings]

78. +1000

[betsuni]

80. [phone]

[Sunlei]

20. Republicans wanted stupid, ill,conman in the WH so they could rape Americans money & Democracy away.

[BigmanPigman]

27. Even if there was a con"woman" candidate she would still

lose to a con"man". Sexism is alive and thriving in the good, 'ol USA and even among women I am sorry to say.

[Sunlei]

32. I agree, no one is as mean & cruel as some of those Republican woman who wanted to be Pres.

on positive side, the Republican woman were the first Republican candidates trump and the Republican party tore to pieces.

[ehrnst]

54. Damn straight. (nt)

[RandomAccess]

28. It was ever about qualifications

Never.

I'm going to post this one very relevant or even half-relevant thread:

Hillary didn't lose because she was less POPULAR. She lost because of James Comey's letters and because of some even more important factors -- more important because they're not going away. They will be used against us in every election going forward, unless we can stop them.

The big problems are voter suppression, Russian meddling, and targeted voter propaganda through Twitter, Google, Facebook, and other forms of social media. There is no question that the Trump campaign, through Cambridge Analytica, did this -- and that the Russians did this. The only question is how much they conspired together in the propaganda campaign.

We need to figure out how to defend the democratic process from fake news and micro-targeted AI propaganda -- or lose our democracy. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029576691

Edited: I don't think she LOST due to sexism. There was sexism involved, to be sure. It just wasn't the deciding factor.

[Zen Democrat]

29. You forget, she WON (except for it being stolen on many levels by Putin).

Almost immediately, the chattering class determined that "nothing the Russians did actually changed votes" and that "of course, Trump was fairly elected."

Never bought that cover story, still don't, and never will.

In 2004 I was Edwards in the primary and Kerry in the general.
In 2008 I was Obama in the primary and Obama in the general.
In 2016 I was Sanders in the primary and Clinton in the general.

ALL of them are in another stratosphere compared to The Criminal President. Millions more voted for Hillary over CrimP. The margins in each of the three suspect states were close enough to be successfully manipulated, IMO.

I don't blame Hillary. I blame Vladimir and his big oafish orangemallow.

[Baconator]

30. I don't think anyone thinks she was less qualified...

If anything his complete lack of qualifications was a bonus for his voting base.

[samnsara]

31. ...and none of us would be feeling this collective angst and anxiety

[NastyRiffraff]

33. Unfortunately, there are a lot of unreasonable people in this country

As well as selfish, misogynist, entitled brats.

Those who hated Hillary so much and so blindly that they voted for Stein, or even Trump, or didn't vote at all because they wanted to "show the country" what happens when they didn't get their way. It wasn't only the brainless Republicans. It was people who called themselves "progressive" and who are actually the opposite of progressive.

I'd better stop there, or I'll be banned for life.

[Turbineguy]

34. The right wing hate machine had over

25 years to create a false character.

[Leith]

35. Three Decades of Vicious Attacks and Propaganda

She's made of sterner stuff than I am for withstanding it all. I still can't get over how the reichwing buzzards accused her and WJC of killing a couple teenagers with a train (ooooh, yes they said it).

People whose children have health insurance because of her voted against her. How's that for gratitude?

[Egnever]

63. So the only way someone could dissagree with Hillary is if it was propaganda?

Seems legit.

[Leith]

65. Way to Twist a Person's Words

Good job, tovarishch.

[Egnever]

66. Feel free to explain what you were trying to say

Not trying to put words in your mouth but you appeared to be saying that it was propaganda that made people dislike Hillary.

Decades of propaganda and abuse.

Having spent my entire life with Hillary in the political spectrum since Bill in the primaries there are plenty of things I dislike about her positions over the years.

I would take her in a New York minute before Trump but that is a super low bar.

[Leith]

67. Posts You Did Not Challenge

"I think many knew she was more qualified and hated her because of that."

"A person would have to be brainwashed"

"The right wing hate machine had over 25 years to create a false character."

But it's me you went after. How odd.

Read this.

[Skittles]

69. it even worked on some DUers

sickening

[Loge23]

39. Who we are now.

Let's not forget nor underestimate the collective idiocy of Americans these days.
No? Try talking to one. They're out there.

[Politicub]

43. She's on fire

[ehrnst]

53. Or "just as corrupt" because you know... "money"

And having the nerve to stay in the race all the way to election day, despite other people who said that there could only be one ethical candidate, and she wasn't that candidate.

Total deal-breaker.

[DFW]

60. Who said that reasonable people believed that? n/t

[Egnever]

61. Trump's win was barely about Hillary

It was a rejection of Washington much more than a personal rejection of Hillary. Hillary to many people represented the status quo and they were willing to try anything to send a message they were sick of it.

Stupid and short sighted yes but Washington has been screwing the little guy for a long time now.

[Pachamama]

62. I thought the interview with Jane Pauley was fantastic....and your right, how could anyone think she

...was less qualified. I also really felt empathy for her and what she faced. And when she described why she referred to him and his supporters as deplorable, she didn't step it back and say that was a mistake. She said exactly why she said that and even when Jane Pauley pressed her that she gave them a rallying call, Hillary was correct that it didn't matter, they were doing that anyway - and that frankly it was accurate because he did and called for deplorable things and there were people who didn't care who supported him and said so much.



PS: Got chills as she passionately described how she felt and what she wanted to say when he was stalking her and invading her space and scowling and glaring at her during the debate. They played the clip and it was creepy, especially hearing her narrate how she felt and how she had to work on her composure although she wanted to turn around and firmly tell him to back off.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

64. How, you ask - could anyone believe?

Simple. They believed Trumps lies. Massive, unrelenting quantities of lies and deceptions, reinforced and parroted 24/7 by Fox and dozens of right-wing TV, radio and social media outlets. Plus, they never allowed their brains to wander outside the bubble.

Back during the election, media outlets outside the US were shocked at this daily onslaught of untruth. The Guardian (UK) documented them day-to-day and posted them in a weekly review, and I copied and pasted them to text files. It still astounds me to look back at that very dark time.

There were many factors for why this election went the way it did, but it's my contention that if Trump had been 'reasonably' truthful throughout the election, he wouldn't have made it past the primaries!

[betsuni]

82. +1

[yuiyoshida]

68. SHE'S NOT A HATER...TRUMP IS...whats the first thing he said on his campaign?

About the Mexicans right? That set the tone for the WHITE NATIONALIST movement to gain strength. OH, and his out right hatred of OBAMA cause he was black.

[krkaufman]

71. For better or worse...

There is no test for "reasonableness" to be eligible to vote.

[Heartstrings]

77. She's a strong female....

Nothing power hungry men fear and loath more....and will destroy by any means.

[betsuni]

83. Some people still claim she hasn't taken responsibility or apologized but she's been

doing that since her concession speech, as the interview shows. Parroting things they've heard without checking facts, a bad habit that helps ensure Republicans stay in power.

[DallasNE]

85. Because People Vote On Raw Emotion

And pay little attention to governance. Because of that far too many vote against their own self-interest.

Recently in Creston, Iowa 5 football players put on white hoods and set fire to a makeshift cross and had their pictures taken. Apparently it was a protest against their star quarterback who happens to have a black father and a white mother. Yes, the coach kicked them off of the football team but there is talk of going to court to get them reinstated. This has been simmering under the surface and with the orange buffoon it bubbles to the top.