How can progressives help steer African Americans away from religion?

[FrodosPet]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by LostOne4Ever (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Should we even try?

Are we helping people escape the negative effects of religion, or are we being "benevolent racists" if we continue to publically and venomously attack beliefs that are dear to already oppressed people?

The sad Cincinnati tragedy is the latest situation where African American religious beliefs have come into conflict with white progressive anti-religious sentiment. And it is a conflict for me personally. Do I say anything anti-religious to people I love? How far can we push it before we alienate the most important and faithful Democrats in the United States of America?

[stone space]

1. WTF???

How can progressives help steer African Americans away from religion?

[FrodosPet]

2. OK, and your answer is?

Should we or shouldn't we?

I am sorry, I do not like easy questions and simple answers.

[bettyellen]

4. Racist patriarchal idiocy. Shame on you.

[FrodosPet]

9. Shame on me for a lot of things.

I wish being a flawless person was easier.

It seems SO freaking easy for so many others. Alas, I have a bad habit of trying to see the world omni-directionally, so the moral questions that are so easy for others are a major challenge to me.

[bvf]

18. Sounds like you have

personal challenges to address that are more immediate.

[FrodosPet]

26. Everyone on Earth has personal challenges to address.

The more they think they don't, the more they really do. Self improvement is a lifelong task, not a one time event.

For better or worse (probably worse), I fell into this method.

[bvf]

34. Yours seem pretty specific.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

156. Are the views of President of China, Xi, specific on religion?

Are Xi approaches to religion politically correct, in other nations?

[bvf]

165. Depends.

[arely staircase]

128. this ^^^ nt

[Hortensis]

81. Well put. :)

[redwitch]

132. my response as well.

Jeez.

[RandySF]

3. Wow

There's so much to say here I don't know where to begin. And people wonder why Bernie does not do well among African American voters.

[FrodosPet]

5. Please do jump in

Personally, it is one of the biggest conflicts of my life. What can I do to be a better human being? Do I offer my own opinions on religion to others, or keep my "mouth" shut so as not to offend anyone?

[RandySF]

8. There's a huge difference

between expressing your own opinion of religion and thinking you ought o go and 'save' a whole community whose faith is the among of their worried (which you would know if you followed the news over the last couple of centuries).

[FrodosPet]

16. This is a big reason I am not an anti-religious advocate

And why I am not cruelly mocking Ms Greggs like SO MANY other people in the interwebs are.

[dilby]

6. Your life must really suck if this is your number one concern.

I mean I love religion and all religions and I encourage people to find their belief or non belief, telling people that you need to be an atheist to be progressive is pretty much a whole bunch of bullshit.

[FrodosPet]

12. It's not #1, but it is top 5

I grew up primarily as a Baptist, but was exposed to other religions, and non-religion, at an early age.

I can find some wonderful things in religion. But I can also find a lot of oppressive, hateful, exclusionary, even violent things in religion.

A lot of people all across the Internet are giving Ms Greggs a hard time about what she said regarding God and her son. And it reminded me of this personal conflict that I have had for a long time: do I have the right to criticize what I consider harmful beliefs?

[dilby]

14. Her belief is not hurting anyone.

It should not be a concern of yours. In a world where everything costs money faith is free, please don't advocate for taking that away from people.

[FrodosPet]

20. That's why this was a question, not a statement

I think those of us who are not religious need to CTFO on the venomous name-calling of Christians.

[Hortensis]

82. +1000. Some people who'd be outraged

at being called bigoted over skin color, or at least distressed that it shows, have no problem spilling the most malignant prejudice for all to see over religion.

[Albertoo]

44. Beliefs are hurting others

The Roman Catholic Church preaching against the use of condoms in Africa helped the spread of HIV there. The Islamic teachings that unbelievers are kuffars who must be subdued has consequences in Somalia, Iraq, Syria, San Bernardino,..

Beliefs inform actions which would be better if no religion was involved.
And charity existed before the abrahamic religions, and takes place in non abrahamic regions.

[cleanhippie]

137. Sorry, faith isn't free at all.

For most, it cost them their critical thought.

[shenmue]

59. Yeah

[brush]

7. What happened in Cincinnati?

[potone]

11. Yes, I am mystified, too.

And I don't think that this is a very promising thread.

[FrodosPet]

13. A small child got into the gorilla exhibit at the Cincinnati zoo.

A gorilla was killed to save the child. The mother publically thanked God for saving her child. And the Internet went crazy because of it.

For a prime example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027866910

[brush]

19. Looks like a white child in the video with the murdered gorrilla. What does that . . .

have to do with weaning AAs off religion.

[FrodosPet]

24. Nope. The child and mother are African American

Perhaps that misunderstanding is why so many people are trashing the mother over her "Thank God" statement? Would they quit if they knew that the mother and child are African American?

[brush]

36. Good luck with that then. I would venture to say there are similar percentages . . .

of religious folks in the different races in this country.

I know a lot of AAs that aren't particularly religious, same with whites and I would venture to say with Asian Americans and Latino Americans too.

We don't have a monopoly on being religious of non-religious.

The people that go to church, go to church. And the ones that don't, don't — often in the same family.

Persuasion either way would be futile.

[deathrind]

155. Most of the negative.

Comments I have read concerning this issue and the "Thank god" comment by the mother had nothing to do with the racial background.

Most are pointing out the conundrum of the statement against the backdrop of reality.

[riversedge]

127. The zoo keeps had to make a guick decision. Had the kid been killed or

badly hurt, then folks would have outrage at the zoo. How the child got there and where were the parents was not the issue when a quick decision had to be made. What if it were your child in the grips of a gorilla?

[Blue_Tires]

126. Both threads are an example of what happens

When I take a break from DU for a few days...

[FrodosPet]

133. That settles it then.

Please don't leave us alone with ourselves! Look at the sloppy messes we create without adult supervision.

[Blue_Tires]

146. I'm just saying that with so few of us left here,

threads about black folks in the news for controversial reasons tend to run off the rails really quick...I'm only speaking from experience here...

Usually myself or someone else will help reel the discussion back in the boat, but this one is so far down the abyss I'm going to punt.

[Bucky]

106. Dr. Johnny Fever said "booger" on air

I'm guessing the OP thought religion made this woman throw her baby at the gorilla

[FrodosPet]

116. No, I have a LOT of sympathy for Ms Gregg

Some supposedly forward thinking people, on the other hand, are taking advantage of her statement to trash Christianity in some very aggressive ways. It is rude, and it is inappropriate. Just like the OP.

I just got a little clumsy and cranky pointing that out.

[StarTrombone]

10. To quote a line from "in the heat of the night"

Because, like the Negro,



they need care and feedin' and cultivatin'.



And that takes time.

But that was only a movie
this is the internet

[Dreamer Tatum]

15. Can't you just go to a black church and demand that they do what you say?

Maybe you can bring some toilet paper along and show them how to use it, too. God only knows what else they're waiting for you to instruct them upon.

[FrodosPet]

17. BINGO!

Alas, a lot of people are doing the equivalent of just that.

A few months ago, I made what I thought was a light, comical post about religious tolerance and got my ass kicked for doing it.

It is frustrating.

[hopemountain]

69. get off your high horse. nt.

[bvf]

151. Impossible. A quart of superglue

in the saddle is at work here.

[oldandhappy]

21. The Black Church has been a long time uniter for the African American people.

1. Allow people their church and religion
2. If you are not AA yourself, be quiet
3. People see your religion by how you live
4. 'Telling' people what to do with religion will turn them the opposite way

If progressives want to influence the Black Church, start after school programs, start nutrition programs in poverty areas, set up scholarships for high school graduates -- i.e. be progressive in the community. Never attack beliefs. Ask what needs to be done. Holy Toledo! This is not hard. Ask, don't tell. If you are anti religion yourself, OK. Some progressives are believers and some are not. Faith is not the standard for being progressive. Caring is the standard.

[FrodosPet]

25. Thank you

I've been hoping for some sanity after reading all the crap on Facebook, Twitter, and here.

[liberal_at_heart]

22. Maybe it's just me but I've never been the type of person to try and convert people

to my way of thinking. I may disagree with people. My father is an evangelical Christian and I disagree with him on a lot of religious topics, but I have never once tried to convince him to think the way I do. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when Christians try to do it to me, so I try not to do it to them. What's that saying about the golden rule?

[Nye Bevan]

23. I don't know. How can we convince churchgoers like these to become atheists?

This is IMPORTANT!

[potone]

28. Michelle looks terrific in this picture.

But then, she always does! I am going to miss this family when they leave the White House.

[TipTok]

122. Obama is the first President..

... that I am confident is a closet atheist.

He plays the game because he needs the votes.

Obviously, I can't prove it. Just my $.02.

Warms my heart in any case.

[applegrove]

27. Many people are born religious. It is in their genes. The problem is religion that has

been co-opt ed by the GOP and radicals. Go after the big guys. Not the people. For many religion makes them happy (the walk the walkers). And I don't have the answer to how the universe was created...do you?

[FrodosPet]

30. I will NEVER claim to have "THE ANSWER" on anything like that.

I have incomplete knowledge, and I will for the rest of my life.

People who have "THE ANSWER" scare the crap out of me.

[Nye Bevan]

31. Personally I think religions that command people to murder as many infidels as possible

are a bigger problem. But I'm mostly just basing this on the body count of the victims.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

64. Big Bang is the best theory science has.

As researched by Edwin Hubble, Stephen Hawking, and many others.

If a better theory comes along, this one will be discarded, unlike unprovable beliefs.

[applegrove]

66. Big Bang does not explain how that tiny piece of dust came to exist. Or how that void around it came

to be before it explided. I believe in it but even it doesn't explain the start.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

75. Read some real scientists. The theory holds up.

It was called the Friedmann theory. Edwin Hubble observed red shift, in a galaxy expanding away from us, which was one of the first pieces of evidence to prove that the universe was expanding. It continues to expand after 13.7 billion years. This was published in 1925.

Start here. Neil deGrasse Tyson, for one.

Neil deGrasse Tyson--The discovery of the 4 degree Kelvin background radiation in the universe, in 1964. Robert Woodrow Wilson was awarded the 1976 Nobel Prize in Physics along with Arno Allan Penzias. This is leftover radiation from the Big Bang:

[Fla Dem]

121. But why was there a universe to begin with. Who or what put that void there?

I understand the big bang theory and the expanding universe. Just would like to know how all the conditions were created to accommodate the big bang. Before it there was nothing and then there was something.

[TipTok]

124. You trip yourself up with the 'why' bit...

Stick to the 'how' and you will go much farther.

In any case, the odds that it all began with a magical father figure who focused nearly exclusively on the herding cultures within a 600 mile radius of a spot planet earth 2000 years ago is unlikely.

To put it extremely mildly.

[mr blur]

80. Absolutely wrong. No-one is "born religious". It is not "in their genes".

Do you have any idea how these things work?

For many religious people killing people makes them happy. Chopping heads off. Bombing abortion clinics. Subjugating women. Beating up gay people. Invading Iraq. Molesting children. You know, the "walk the walkers".

Because I can't explain how the universe started I'm supposed to believe that all superstitious drivel about the "creation" of everything has equal validity?

Perhaps you don't think that science is important - It was the symbolism that mattered?

[applegrove]

166. Science says that some people have a genome that is attracted to religion.

That religion makes them happy. Of course the radicals and used GOP preachers need to be fought against. But religion is a human way to be. One of many.

[applegrove]

29. You sure you are not a troll and will be held up to religious a a as a false flag progressive

democrat? And a bigot?

[FrodosPet]

35. Yes, I am sure of that

I am a flawed human being. I am a skeptical human being. I love EVERYONE on Earth, and want them to have a happier, healthier, more prosperous life. So from that perspective, yes, I am a progressive Democrat.

And I like asking questions that bring people out of their comfort zone to try to make them consider a wide range of ideas and opinions. Not because it is fun (OK, it is a little fun) but because it is important.

[JI7]

32. WTF ?????

[FrodosPet]

39. "What a shock, Gorilla Killa Mom is a Jay-sus freak"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027866910

That thread, and other responses around the 'net has upset me a lot.

So I wanted to turn it around and turn it up to 11.

[yardwork]

87. So what? What is wrong with you to post this?

[FrodosPet]

102. Too many of us (sadly, including myself) look at being a Democrat (progressive, liberal)...

... almost as a "get out of bigotry free" card.

I was already feeling cranky from a cold I am fighting. Then I came upon the thread where Ms Gregg was brutally insulted over a comment she made in nervous gratitude that her child was unhurt. As well, there was the thread talking about how racists don't know they are racist.

It reminded me all over again how many people I have read here and talked to in real life who act like people of color are "uninformed voters" or "suffering from Stockholm Syndrome". And how people of religious faith are all monsters and/or morons. We sneer at the right wing, at Republicans, at traditional racists, and yet we continue our own "we are your friends, do what we tell you, believe what we tell you, we know what is best for you" attitudes. I am not saying it is the majority of us, but it IS present, and it is harmful, and I think everyone should take some time now and again to self-evaluate after stripping away our egos.

[yardwork]

136. So you did the same thing???!!!!

Seriously, what the fuck? This OP is deeply offensive to a wide range of people, and you did it because you were offended by something else, so you thought the right approach was to throw gasoline around and burn the place down?

Self delete and apologize.

[bravenak]

33. WHOA NELLY!!!

#whitesaviour
#saveusnegroesfromjesus
#butwhataboutmlk

Take them as slaves and now take the religion they were ALLOWED to replace our own culture with, WHOA OMGISTHISREAL?

[FrodosPet]

37. The horrible treatment of Ms Gregg is real

Please check out the rest of my responses here for a clearer picture of where I really stand.

I am not the one trashing this poor woman after a frightening ordeal.

[bravenak]

38. How is this helpful?

[FrodosPet]

40. By hopefully getting some people to examine their hypocrisy

Perhaps get them to consider the harmful impact of their words.

And if it helps me morally grow and exorcise some of my own effed up opinions in the process, so much the better.

[bravenak]

42. Good luck with this!

[FrodosPet]

52. Thank you. Growing as a moral human being is a process

Especially growing up white and being surrounded by A LOT of hate and stupidity.

Too often I think things, even say things, that I know are wrong and hurtful. But it is like this BS is burned into my consciousness, and it is more of a struggle to free myself than it should be.

Hopefully, with conscious attention and opening myself up to a range of people, I can succeed and feel better about myself, and improve my opinions and attitudes.

[Scootaloo]

41. This thread is about the best swan dive into an empty pool I've ever seen

10/10, would slap my head again.

[FrodosPet]

47. Everybody needs a hobby

Self embarrassment and pissing off people seems to be mine.

[Scootaloo]

51. Well, everyone should play to their strengths

[SunSeeker]

43. Are you really that clueless about the patronizing tone of your OP?

How can progressives help steer African Americans away from religion?

Should we even try?

Are we helping people escape the negative effects of religion, or are we being "benevolent racists" if we continue to publically and venomously attack beliefs that are dear to already oppressed people?

The sad Cincinnati tragedy is the latest situation where African American religious beliefs have come into conflict with white progressive anti-religious sentiment. And it is a conflict for me personally. Do I say anything anti-religious to people I love? How far can we push it before we alienate the most important and faithful Democrats in the United States of America?

What does the Cincinnati tragedy have to do with the woman being African American? What difference does her race make to her religiousness? Do you not see that suggesting progressives "steer African Americans," like they are mindless chattel, is offensive?

[FrodosPet]

45. I do see that

I have tried to make that clear.

Alas, like so many other things, where I have tried to fire up some unused neurons (in myself as well as others) and attack hypocrisy, I guess I bombed out on this one as well.

[L. Coyote]

46. Black and white works with clothing, has little to do with people.

You do realize that people who think there are races are called racists!

[Recursion]

48. What the actual fuck? (nt)

[romanic]

49. I am a critic of religion

but what the fuck what you talking about OP?

Also, wth does the shooting at the Gorilla Zoo have to do with African Americans and the "white progressive anti-religious sentiment"?

[Albertoo]

50. I fear the OP steers people away from the real issues

Like helping steer everyone away from religions.

[EllieBC]

53. I'm not African American but I'm guessing they don't need you to save them.

Because like everyone else, African Americans are perfectly capable to informing themselves and coming to their own decisions.

Your OP is just so much white saviour that it is damn racist.

[Agnosticsherbet]

56. +1000

[FrodosPet]

57. It is, isn't it?

Alas, that is how I see the venomous reactions towards Ms Gregg and her religious beliefs.

There is too much (supposedly) benevolent racism and anti-religion coming from our side. I could not hold back after reading the vile thread mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

[raging moderate]

54. Dear Frodo's Pet, did you perhaps forget to use a sarcasm symbol?

I think perhaps your OP just was too straight-faced. Maybe next time, write it out and edit it ahead of time?

[FrodosPet]

113. It WAS, by and large, sarcasm

But actually adding the sarcasm thingie would have distracted from what I was trying to do... create a WTF moment in people.

Oh, well. I suppose if no one else gets anything positive from this thread, I sure have.

[Agnosticsherbet]

55. A suggestion: Ask, how can the left work to keep religion out of politics and government.

Because asking how to " steer African Americans away from religion?" is a disgusting statement.

We have freedom of religion in this country and it is none of our business how any group chooses to worship.

[FrodosPet]

60. A thread like that would die a quick death

This one is hopefully firing people up to recognize their own racism, cattiness, etc. so they can try to overcome it.

Even if it does not help anyone else, it certainly has worked for me.

[Agnosticsherbet]

61. I certainly recognize the racism when it comes to my attention.

[FrodosPet]

63. A LOT of people in this world need to learn that skill.

Including me.

[6chars]

58. Not that long ago, whites "steered" AAs to Christianity

[FrodosPet]

62. We REALLY need to quit steering anybody anywhere

We need to offer our opinions with respect and appreciation for others, even if we think they are incorrect. And we need to quit calling people "Jay-sus freaks" and all the other horrible names and sentiments that are so casually tossed around. It is probably not going to change them, it will just drive us further apart.

[6chars]

65. Amen!

(i am aware of the irony)

[hopemountain]

67. this is none of your business

this is the most intolerant bigoted post i have seen here in a very long while. you do know you are posting on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, right?

[rbrnmw]

70. thank you for saying what I couldn't find the words to say myself

[FrodosPet]

73. Yes, I do know that this is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.

As far as "the most intolerant bigoted post i have seen here in a very long while", I see those all the time here. One in particular really set me off tonight. But in this particular case, the intent was the exact opposite.

Perhaps I fell down hard in the process, and it is not saying what I tried to say and not doing what I hoped it would do.

It really sucks being imperfect sometimes.

[hopemountain]

76. you are falling into the same behavior of proselytizing

what you consider a superior thought form or beliefs over those of others just as much as many "religions". this is why it is so offensive.

it is even more offensive when it is a white person proselytizing their superior beliefs on people of color and is also called colonization - whether by a government or a religious organization - or a slave owner.

it takes many generations to overcome these forms of mind and body control when one's language and culture and even memory of one's origins have been erased and been replaced with an indoctrination of authoritarianism.

many generations.

[rbrnmw]

68. Really??

[FrodosPet]

71. Nope. Not really.

Yes, I admit, the OP was deliberately controversial.

Throughout the rest of the thread, I tried to explain my motivation to call out racism and whatever the proper term for nasty anti-religious hate speech is, but I guess it flopped.

You live, you learn. Hopefully.

[bravenak]

72. Next time just add a sarcasm tag

So hard for us to hear tone over the web

[mahina]

74. Why would you want to?

What does anybody else have to say about someone's religion?

None of my business, nor is it any of yours.

[mikehiggins]

77. This is not open for discussion. What grounds do you have for proclaiming

"white progressive anti-religious sentiment" is a legitimate concern? As a white progressive I am astonished anyone would consider a statement like yours.

You of course are free to say anti-religious things to people you love but don't be surprised if you don't get invited around for dinner after that.

In the words of the prophet Mind Your Own Business

Or was that Dear Abby? Whatever.

[WillowTree]

78. Do you not see how patronizing and disgustingly paternalistic that sounds?

Just really, really offensive.

[milestogo]

123. + a brazillion

[FrodosPet]

135. Yes, the OP IS patronizing and disgustingly paternalistic

I am trying to prove a point. In doing so, I made a lot of people uncomfortable. You have to break some eggs to make an omelet.

Some people get it. Some don't.

[yardwork]

138. Your attitude reeks of privilege.

[Warpy]

79. We shouldn't even try

Face it, it's a rotten thing to do to anyone.

What we can hope is that when the sky doesn't fall as all people are given the civil rights protections they should have as citizens, they'll moderate their own beliefs. Or not. Their choice.

There are some things that do more harm than good. Meddling with core beliefs by outsiders is one of them.

[etherealtruth]

83. Progressives should direct their efforts toward eradicating racism, elitism ....

.... and abject stupidity among society and their own ranks.


on edit: Reading through your responses it appears that you may have written this to be pithy and to illustrate racism, elitism and abject stupidity within some on the left .... but in all honesty, on its face, the OP reads like a sickening racist screed

[RogueTrooper]

84. This is all I can say is..

[yardwork]

88. Thanks for saying it.

[Quayblue]

145. Thank you.

What in the damn holy hell ....what the fuck is going on around here? Oh wait . your meme says it. Never mind. Ugh.

[ileus]

85. As progressives we should work to ban religion...from the US.

[moriah]

98. As progressives, we should work to ban bans not protecting freedom of religion.

Oh, wait, our Constitution already covers that -- both my right to dance under the full moon light, and yours to think I'm a kook for doing so and not be forced to do it yourself.

[Stellar]

86. Probably when African Americans are treated equally to everyone else...

in the country.

A right to be Black without shaming, and a right to education, jobs, housing, able to afford clean water and fresh food. not killed by police with impunity, flooding their community with guns...anything that would keep them from leaning on religion so desperately. This is what keeps them on their knees praying morning, noon and night. When you fix all of these things, maybe then there is a chance to ween them off religion.

[yardwork]

89. Are you fucking kidding me?

A jury allowed this blatant racism to stand. Seriously, WTF?

[malaise]

90. Very good question

It is the dilemma of the two sides of religion - backward and superstitious preventing objective thinking -leaving everything to an imaginary friend in the sky and the side that provided education, networking and social mobility. The same problem exists across the Caribbean.

[Orrex]

91. Why don't we let African Americans decide for themselves?

What a fucked-up OP.

[moriah]

92. Jury, you suck.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: You alerted on a post which was already alerted
Mail Message
On Tue May 31, 2016, 07:06 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

How can progressives help steer African Americans away from religion?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027868548

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

This is so totally over the top, to suggest that an African-American woman thanking God for the fact her child lived means we should stop people from believing in God. I don't have words.

JURY RESULTS

Someone else already alerted on this post before you alerted on it, and only the first alert was sent to a Jury. A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of the post on Mon May 30, 2016, 11:00 PM, and voted 3-4 to keep IT. Please note that even though your alert was not sent to a Jury, it has been forwarded to the Administrators who review all alerts.

Thank you.

[moriah]

94. Who the hell are you to judge a woman for thanking God for her child's life?

Or a race that has a strong religious tradition that has empowered rather than shackled them once they could run their own churches?

Did you forget that Dr. King wasn't a medical doctor, but a preacher and religious scholar?

Look, you can think you are being a "benevolent racist" by letting people have faith that gets them through hard times if you want, but you aren't being benevolent by looking down on people for having faith. How the hell did her thanking God harm a single living soul?

If you want to go after people using faith to harm, go check out the Quiverfull movement, or the FLDS, or the Westboro Baptist Church. If you'll notice, they're awfully goddamn pale.

[FrodosPet]

120. -I- am not the one judging her.

I'm just the poor schmuck saying "we need to be better than this". And yes, I am including myself in "we".

[moriah]

147. So, one step about "being better" might not be the automatic assumption that faith is always bad.

As I said in another post, the Constitution gives me the right to dance under the full moonlight if I will it, and gives you the right to think I'm a kook and not be forced to participate.

But atheists often fall victim to the same arrogance that people who think their faith is the One True Way have, and it's easier to justify intellectual arrogance than it is to see that the human psyche has had faith, religion, myth, spirituality, and other "superstitious nonsense" for its entirety of existence as sentient beings, if archaeology is any clue. Jungian archetypes may indicate less a "collective unconscious" if that sounds too mystical for you, but perhaps are indicators of humanity's brain wiring, yet their near universality is undeniable.

If you don't need to believe there's some greater reason than you understand for things that are shitty or express gratitude when things that could have been shittier are less shitty, that's fine for you. But... shit happens.

And you haven't experienced my shit, and perhaps not seen potential shit averted and thought things that may be wishful thinking but are harmless (if any Witch could influence matters from beyond the grave to save her only grandchild, it was the deceased Witch whose grandson is only alive now because her daughter-in-law was scheduled for an ultrasound because they mistakenly thought they saw two possible Downs markers on a prior one -- she hadn't known she was in premature labor or starting to experience a likely placental abrupture, just thought he was kicking hard).

But don't judge my way to deal with the craziness of this world -- to believe there must be a reason. If you had walked in my moccasins, you might have developed a similar unproven and impossible to prove view that keeps you here, going, and somewhat sane, too.

[Crunchy Frog]

95. Patiently explain the evils of religion to people while hanging around outside

traditionally African American churches. Don't tell anyone that you're a Democrat.

This way you can do your part to reduce the tragic gorilla zoo shootings in this country.

[gollygee]

96. I believe you are being facetious to show how wrong people were to judge this mom for

Thanking God that her child was safe. However you didn't word this very well.

[FrodosPet]

111. Thank you for recognizing that

I was hoping to stir up people, especially us so-called "New Atheists" (personally, I am agnostic, not atheist) to look inward. I am starting to realize that perhaps it is having the opposite effect?

[NastyRiffraff]

164. I am a "New Atheist"

and I would NEVER post anything like that OP. Nor would I think it's my "right" to steer an entire race away from religion or anything else. I get that you were trying to stir things up, but there are other ways, really. Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is not cool.

And please, PLEASE do not do the "I'm not perfect" thing again. We know you're not perfect, just like everyone else.

[Act_of_Reparation]

97. Fighting racism with racism probably isn't the best strategy.

Yes, trying to "save" black people from religion is textbook example of racism. So is the belief that black people are of such a gelatinous constitution that without religion they would just fall to pieces.

[Odin2005]

99. Your post borders on being offensively patronizing.

And yes, you are being a "benevolent racist".

Par the course for privileged white "New Atheists".

[WinkyDink]

104. "borders on"?!

[Albertoo]

125. So called "New Atheists" come in all sexes and colors

Why you see them as white males is strange.

[sufrommich]

100. Is this a satirical OP about condescending white liberals?

If not it's just sad.

[onenote]

101. Reading through all of the OPs comments, I think that is a fair assessment.

Like a lot of people, my initial reaction to the OP was WTF. But having read his/her comments throughout and seeing the comparison between the comments in this thread and some of the comments disparaging the mother of the child that fell into the gorilla enclosure, I think this is actually a thought-provoking discussion and I offer kudos to the OP for being brave enough to go out on a limb to get that discussion started. Yes, the OP was offensive sounding, but only as a way of holding up a mirror to the holier than thou (or maybe its the less holier than thou) crowd that acts as if one cannot be a person of faith and a progressive. Which would come as a shock to some of the great progressives of our times.

[FrodosPet]

107. Yes, it is just that

We definitely need to learn to respect others a lot more than we currently are.

Yes, it shook a lot of people up. I hope at least a few will take advantage to reconsider how we are treating too many people of color and of faith.

[WinkyDink]

103. Do you have ANY CLUE as to how religion has aided American (and African slave) Blacks?

[FrodosPet]

108. I like to think that I am trying to find one

But straight up, a lot of people don't.

We ALL need to become wiser, more caring individuals.

[Bucky]

105. What a fucking patronizing, racist, plantation-mentality question. Do you even listen to yourself?

Dood, 1st Amendment.

Here's some religion for you: go google "Mote in your own eye first" and see what Jesus has to say to people like you.

[Egnever]

109. Well trolled

[RogueTrooper]

110. Some further thoughts...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

112. Lol

You guys are such a joke

[FrodosPet]

119. "Benevolent bigotry" is no joke.

Calling people "Jay-sus Freaks", or saying people are "low information voters" with "Stockholm Syndrome" is no joke.

Alas, I had to go to extreme measures to point that out, so that we can recognize and hopefully take corrective action within our own attitudes and opinions.

[greatauntoftriplets]

114. Word fail me.

Just this ==>

[ProfessorGAC]

115. A Little Disappointing

I cannot believe the number of people for whom the point of the OP was a total swing and miss.

That great sucking sound wasn't jobs going to central america. It was the point whooshing over the heads of a lot posters on this thread.

[TwilightZone]

129. Considering how much over-the-top nonsense has been posted on DU lately, can't blame them.

A post equating AA support of Hillary Clinton to Stockholm Syndrome got dozens of recs and was in the conversation for days.

This, frankly, isn't much more over-the-top. My first thought was that it was being intentionally so (confirmed by the poster's follow-up comments, of course), but I can understand why it was taken literally by many. This place has turned into a cesspool.

[ProfessorGAC]

154. That's The Disappointing Part

It should have been obvious this wasn't a literal statement. But, no!

[yardwork]

140. Oh I get the point. YOU seem to miss how offensive it is.

Calling out an entire minority group to prove a point reeks of privilege.

[ProfessorGAC]

153. The OP Wasn't Calling Out A Minority Group!

So, you've now proven you missed the point. The OP is defending the minority group's right to believe in whatever they want to believe in.

The OP, as stated in multiple follow up posts, is hammering those who instantly jumped to the "lady whose kid was involved" is a religious nut. The OP then stated, would you ask a minority group to give up their religion?

Since that's clearly not what anybody here thinks, it was important to point out these people are african-american. If that changes the thinking about the woman's religious affiliation, well it should!

[LynneSin]

163. "How can progressives help steer African Americans away from "

that sentence alone pretty much means the OP was calling out a particular minority group.

Might as well have started the sentence with "I'm not racist but..."

As for latter posts, I also call 'bullshit'. A poster's opening comment sets the tone for everything else. It's like that "I'm not racist but..." comment thinking "If I just can clear up the air after I said that utterly bullshit comment"

[yardwork]

167. Knowing the mother's ethnicity and religion hasn't changed my opinion at all.

The zoo is clearly at fault. Little kids shouldn't be able to climb into animal enclosures. I have no idea if the parents were negligent it not. Either way, it should not have been that easy for the child to get into the enclosure. So the OP's shot goes wildly wide, offending countless people in the process.

Again, it is the definition of privilege to use a minority group in this way. I use the word "use" deliberately.

[betsuni]

117. ...

[stonecutter357]

130. more trashy shit from the berniebros.

[fleabiscuit]

131. Did you use and online new-age bullshit generator for your post?

If not, should have.

[Lee-Lee]

134. Who the fuck do you think you are to be "steering" a block of people based on race?

WTF????

Seriously, do you need to have a bunch of brave white progressives ride in on their white stallions and save the day by "steering" those ignorant negros where they need to go but are just not smart enough to get their on their own?

Really?????

This has to be the most racist condescending post I've ever seen here. Assuming that the path a certain person of a certain racial identity choose is bad for them, that you know better and that you can or should "steer" them away like a sheepdog herding sheep.

[FrodosPet]

139. "the most racist condescending post I've ever seen here"

Considering how many racist condescending posts there are here, that is saying something.

Most of us here are fundamentally good, well meaning, but flawed individuals. Sometimes we need to look in the mirror if we really want to improve ourselves and our respect for and treatment of others.

[hack89]

141. The White Man's burden is a heavy one.

Wtf were you thinking when you wrote that title?

[FrodosPet]

142. Please read the rest of my responses

I am NOT saying what people think I am saying. My target is not people of color. It is people who believe that don't realize they are bigots.

[yardwork]

148. No, you are missing the point. We get what you're trying to do.

You don't seem to understand how offensive it is to call out an entire minority group, using their lives as a rhetorical device just to tell DU how dumb and narrow-minded we are. Your attitude reeks of privilege. You know best. And never mind how many people you use - yes, use - to make your point. It's all about you and your point. THIS is the essence of privilege.

[TrappedInUtah]

143. What?

This is possibly the weirdest and most strangely offensive topic I've seen in a while. "Us noble white people need to save the ignorant African Americans from their obsolete beliefs". Sounds pretty racist too me.

[FrodosPet]

144. It is VERY racist

That's why we need to NOT do it. And why we, as individuals, need to examine our beliefs with a self-critical eye.

[LexVegas]

149. This would have 100 recs in GDP. nt

[KamaAina]

150. I do not believe I just read that.

Oddly enough, I was thinking about AA religion just last week. I came to the conclusion that since slaves were not allowed to practice their African spiritual traditions, they incorporated elements of them into Christianity -- things like call and response, thus weaving a rich religious tapestry. You would shred that tapestry?!

[still_one]

152. I wonder how we can help steer those that want to steer AA away from

religion to STFU?

[truebrit71]

157. Everyone has to come to their senses in their own time.

Many never do.

"God " apparently saw fit to save this particular child, but the other 29,000 that die of starvation daily are on their own.

Yay, god!

[OregonBlue]

158. One of the most clueless posts of all time on DU.

It's like asking, should African Americans help steer godless progressives to religion?

[TacoD]

159. One of the most modest proposals I've ever read on DU (nt)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

160. What a bizarre, offensive and patronizing question!

Are you suggesting African Americans are incapable of determining for themselves what to believe, and that (white) progressives ought to go out and "enlighten" them?

What a bunch of crap.

[Demsrule86]

161. Disgusting post

Why not try live and let live...it is the American way...and if people did this...there would be no conflict.

[LynneSin]

162. Really? Seriously! As a Christian I'm f*cking offended

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone being a Christian. However the problem is that there are leaders in the Christian faith who manipulate the bible for profit and to hate on those they do not understand.

It's bullshit you think we need to somehow 'save' the African-American community from religion and that you assume someone can't be a progressive and also have religion.

BTW if Jesus was around today he would be one of us. In his time he was very progressive in his ideologies. Paul fucked things up with bringing us organized religion.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

168. I will defend your right to be Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan etc. I reported this OP to moderators

I got no reply. It appears the author of this article has an agenda, which includes being offensive.

[LynneSin]

169. Thank you! I was tempted to report it

I respect everyone's religion or lack of it. I feel people have the right to worship (or not worship) the God of their choice. What I have issue with is when someone uses that religion to infringe on other people's rights. I know some religious people feel the bible says that homosexuality is a 'sin'. Fine if someone wants to read the bible that way and think Homosexuals are sinners that's their choice to be an idiot (well they are, Jesus never said anything against homosexuality). But when they use that religion to infringe on the civil rights of others then I do have an issue.

[forjusticethunders]

170. Fuck your white man's burden bullshit.

[LostOne4Ever]

171. LOCKING THREAD AS SOP VIOLATION

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RELIGION

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