General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhite people don't want to talk about it
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/1993/05/white_people_dont_want_to_talk.htmlBlack people tend to speak freely about race, as if on familiar ground.
But more often than not, white people steer clear of an exchange when it seems their racial values will be put under scrutiny....
"White people are very reluctant to discuss race and racism, and their reluctance is one of the primary barriers in terms of effecting some type of solution to the problem of race," said David Billings, a local white Methodist minister who conducts anti-racism workshops. "We are not brought up to discuss honestly our feelings about race."
tblue37
(65,590 posts)unblock
(52,572 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I was raised in an environment where I learned not to discuss personal things with other people. This included religion, politics, romance and race. Also, my environment was such that I didn't meet an actual black person until I was 12 years old. I think you can see how that puts me at a real disadvantage when it comes to knowing about the issue of race. Of course, I was fully indoctrinated, and used bad words to refer to black people, since they were just an abstraction to me, not like real people I actually knew.
TBF
(32,196 posts)in my area (rural, poor in the midwest). Everyone was actually polite and didn't use derogatory language (this was the north) but I don't know how many friends they had. I do remember that they belonged to the Jehovah's Witnesses so presumably there was support at church.
This nation does need to do better but I'm not sure whites are the ones who should be doing the talking. Maybe it is time for whites to listen.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)I have faith that President Bill Clinton will address this issue.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Response to KamaAina (Reply #6)
Post removed
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Can you elaborate?
Kali
(55,042 posts)about Bill Clinton. I am sure poster was being sarcastic.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)pool of RW shit some of us have been dipping into to slam Dems round here. This isn't about Clinton? WOW.
On Tue Sep 8, 2015, 02:30 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Oh, yeah, the Prez who dealt drugs, murdered, vandalized the WH, and of course raped a white woman.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7150093
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Right wing slanderous anti-Clinton garbage.
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Sep 8, 2015, 02:41 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This idiot needs to be sent away.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sarcastically referencing all the slurs that the actual first black President had to endure is not anti-Clinton. Geez.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Typical trollish slander. Get rid of it.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: If this was sarcasm, it went completely over my head. I'm voting to HIDE, but I think the poster just forgot to employ the sarcasm tag.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: WTF is it with all the RW propaganda on DU.
Send this crap to the Admins also.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Kali
(55,042 posts)I am sure the post was sarcastically listing the crap the right wing nut jobs say about Bill Clinton, yet the only juror who seemed to get it, didn't get it?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)but looking back at a few other or that poster's posts, I now think you are right.
But this is where we are- with so many ridiculous accusations tossed out, it's not even clear if they are toward Clinton or Obama!
Iggo
(47,625 posts)Shit-stirring. He's doing it wrong.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)TYY
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)was sarcasm. Surely Bill will address it.
Solly Mack
(90,816 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)and will vote to end it.
I do not like living in a racist nation.
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)Good for you, that makes at least two of us now.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)there is very little discussion.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Most of the time the discussion is about parsing definitions rather than about the why's of various dismal statistics.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but I do in person, and on Facebook. But most people are reluctant indeed.
But DU I have found, is the last place I would discuss prison, poverty, race, education. You know usual issues.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)on DU are shrinking. I'm blocked in 3 groups now for ridiculous reasons.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)At this point that is a badge of honor. And I got blocked after I said, and I am unsubbing from this group, thank you very much.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)I'm blocked there (AA) for giving an honest answer to an honest question. Some of the very ones who blocked me are here right now spouting all sorts of self-righteous, sanctimonious drivel.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and they have even had PoC blocked. Ironic I know. But being an immigrant from Mexico, I am one.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)all they want is verification of what they believe
no discussion, no debate
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but that is becuase people actually want some critique.
I just have not posted there in a while. It is a time issue.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)can't they throw in a bum picture every once in a while? IT'S HARD PICKING THE BEST ONE!!!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I have some goodies.
Tom took these the other day at a pizza restaurant fire. Mine did not come good.
I think this was great, and it is the dang sensor.. he had the pro rig
You can see one of our female engineers, the gal with the red helmet
Skittles
(153,428 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)hide behind self-righeousness and shout down all discussions that don't agree with them 100%.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)they have shut it down here on DU, but good luck shutting it off in the country.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)is inversely proportional to the number of black people that they actually know.
treestar
(82,383 posts)seems to be a no-no.
The freepers tend to claim their black friend (Clarence Thomas) agrees with them. So the black friend is deemed fictional.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)kiva
(4,373 posts)A discussion when everyone talks.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)In my experience, what he describes is as true of some nonwhites as of some whites -- and as untrue of others.
I'm remembering from back in the 1980s a well-produced TV show that tried to examine race and sports ability, with a multiracial lay panel to discuss the findings presented from history and research. Astonishing to me (and why I remember it) was that most -- not all -- panelists didn't care about whatever the truth was, including a black woman I particularly remember. These panelists hated that these biases were being discussed out in the open so much, as if they were real or something, that they didn't care about anything but insisting they shouldn't be. Dangerous Pandora's box or something.
Now me, I'm white from California and I'll yack about this stuff whenever someone wants to.
BTW, turned out Jews were once considered to have a special, genetic talent for basketball. DH is Jewish, but when we tried having him jump we didn't see it.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Famous Jewish pro baseball players. Sandy Koufax once refused to pitch in the World Series because it was on Yom Kippur in 1965. I remember my dad telling me about that. We're not Jewish but I think my dad admired Sandy's refusal to pitch on a religious holiday.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)I recall a friend's recent Facebook post about BLM and how the should "stop wasting time on something ridiculous." White Clinton supporter authored it...a gay man, to boot. It happens all over.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Orrex
(63,317 posts)Frankly, I don't feel that I have the authority or experience to say anything of value on the subject, except when I'm arguing with bigots.
Otherwise, what the hell can I possibly say about race to a person of color that will be relevant and helpful? I feel that I would serve the discussion much more fully by shutting up and listening.
It's like the guy in the article wants people to admit they still feel superior to POC and that's what they are refusing to discuss.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The nuances are lost online and the discussion always devolves. No thanks.
In RL, the discovery of my paternal grandparents emigrating from Jamaica and shredding their Jewish mulatto race/identity card (literally ) and passing as white Protestants upon landing means its a fascinating topic rich with history for my family and friends.
They coerced all of their Jamaican born children to lie their whole lives as well. My father was born here in the US and never knew their origins until i discovered it during genealogy research 20+ years ago.
Unfortunately he's the only one still living so we have no "true" back story (only the lie that they came from Scotland. .. ).
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)That's a pointless waste of time.
There is a "my way or the highway" mindset about it, and I don't see why anyone should want to participate in that. I sure don't. I'm not interested in one-way conversations.
More and more, the "identity politics" way of thinking reminds me of a religious cult mentality. To anyone who is familiar with religious cult thinking, the patterns are definitely very similar.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)one-way conversations, are resistance to your dismissal of "identity politics".
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Usually I don't even get into the conversation, as I said. So your point doesn't really make a lot of sense.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)should have none that differ from your own? WOW.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you ARE in a "conversation" ... and yet you tell me that my comment doesn't make sense because you usually don't get into the conversation.
Yep ... that might be at issue.
randys1
(16,286 posts)hurt.
Privilege takes a very long time to die.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Another phenomenon of fish swimming in water. Just having to listen to others is a problem when you are used to controlling the conversation. Works for every ism.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it is always in a complaint about a discussion or action that is non euro-centric, non Heterosexist, non-male.
So true ... Remember, the good ole days (that too many DUers pine for) when white, (straight) males were the only voices that counted for anything?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)And illustrates the OP perfectly. Thanks.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)One word comes to mind... Borg.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)I think sometimes the people who try to invoke the most control on the Internets are the ones who have the least amount of control in their personal lives.
It's why they lash out and are consistently nasty, arrogant, self-serving, and generally hold cartoonish viewpoints that don't hold water in the real world.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)the hive mind.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I think a lot of whites want to be perceived as modern and progressive so they avoid overt racism. But deep down don't really care for ending it.
If the current system benefits a certain people, those people have no rational motivation to change it. Except, of course, to be "better people." But we know, at least historically, self-interest often wins out. Especially if the form of racism isn't overt.
I don't think racism can be ended. It is universal and seemingly resilient against all logic. Overt racism might decrease but it will ultimately manifest in different forms.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)that unless one is in 100% agreement with poc - they don't want to hear what white people have to say. If one is not 100% in agreement-one is a white liberal racist (which has been made clear on DU- is worse than overt bigots who wear the white pointed hoods) or that one is white splaining and one's opinions, concerns and thoughts and experiences are dismissed as "fluffery". Yes, "fluffery" is the word that was used by one person who did not like what I had to say.
In so many words it has been said here- that no matter what I or anyone else has done or experienced either as a white person or as a minority themselves throughout their lives to eliminate bigoted attitudes and eliminate racist systems both in themselves and others, it will never be enough. When in fact, my ancestors didn't come to this country until the early 1900's and were just as poor and powerless (and still are) to make changes to a system that was already in place when they got here.
I have come to the conclusion that unless I'm tripping over myself trying to convince the poc here how not racist I am or that I don't hold bigoted attitudes (which by the way, I believe everyone does- including poc- and have admitted to myself in several posts- despite being married to a African American man and having a multi racial child), my thoughts, opinions and concerns are not welcome.
So no, I will not discuss race with people on DU who hide behind their keyboards and do nothing but accuse and demand that you agree with them no matter what they have to say and beg forgiveness from them for a system that for the most part our ancestors are responsible for.
What I will do- is continue to live life in the real world confront bigotry when I recognize it and allow all people to judge me by my character and the deeds I have performed there.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)others did not speak up to say that it was not true. Punitive action was taken with out comment nor was there an opportunity to explain myself and personal insults were made in regards to some opinions and personal experiences that I posted, so what else am I to assume other than- honest discussion in regards to race is not welcome here at DU?
On edit: I specifically said I learned this from some of the poc at DU. I feel I need to make it clear to you that this is not what I have learned in real time.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but will just say ... what constitutes an "HONEST" discussion will be seen differently. For example, in a discussion of racism, your comparing your life experience, gained through your vicarious observation of your Black husband and/or bi-racial child, does NOT hold equal weight to a Black person's life experience ... that, to me, would be a dishonest discussion.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)by white people when I married my husband- is that I was no longer considered white.
So I don't think you as a black man can tell me what my experience is/has been anymore than you feel that I can tell you that I understand your black experience since I have never been a black man.
You may think it is arrogant of me to say that I can relate to your black experience. However, it is equally arrogant for you to tell me that my experiences as a white woman married to an African American are nothing compared to yours as you will never be a white woman married to a black man.
Hurt is hurt and we all bleed red. I know what if feels like to be hurt and bleed just as you do. But if in your mind it is some kind of contest about who has been hurt the most- I'll cede that to you. Maybe you do bleed redder or longer than I ever have. But I don;t think you can tell me that it is not possible for me to feel someone elses hurt, because you are wrong on that.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)And I think there we see the problems you've had.
I seem to recall you saying at some point that you and your husband had broken up a long time ago? Maybe I'm misremembering? Or maybe you've reconnected. If so, congrats!
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)He was my one and only marriage and we never spent a day apart.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)<3 I've been married a long time. I can't even imagine how difficult that has been for you.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)people have been hurt, by the white supremacy system in the United Sates, and playing a game of one upmanship is unhelpful, but on DU expected. If we are to play that game, I can speak of the Jewish experience with quite a bit of authority. as well as the immigrant experience. I just don't do it on DU anymore.
Also your recollection, whether it is true or not (and it is not) is rude in the extreme.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I did not intend to be rude. I remember stuff. I did not know her husband had passed away though and I do regret asking given that.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)suffice it to say, the subject of race is one that I cover regularly as a reporter. (I read more shit than halthy on this), and have long conversations with local people. I just will not talk of it on this site. A small group of folks has managed to create an echo chamber. Chew on this, and multiply the number of people that have actually spoken here, who are committed to social justice, but are done getting pounded for it on this site.
Response to gollygee (Reply #113)
Name removed Message auto-removed
qwlauren35
(6,155 posts)What you experience is different from being black, but I have no doubt that it has had MAJOR repercussions.
I think the issue is you can go "invisible" when you want to, when your husband and child are not around. You may not experience "driving while black" or getting dirty looks and no service in department stores when you are alone. On the other hand, you may get dirty looks for having a biracial child, or a black husband, and no doubt, when your husband is driving, there is always the possibility that things may "go wrong". You may have fears for your husband and child who live with "being black" and there's not a damned thing you can do to protect them from it.
As a very light skinned person (I get a lot of second looks and people trying to "figure me out" , married to a dark skinned man, I may understand some of it.
Maybe.
I think what 1SBM is saying is that you straddle the two worlds, one foot in and one foot out. I have no doubt that being halfway in is daunting, and uncomfortable, and you see racism constantly, and have it thrown in your face whenever you are with your family, or discussing your family, or around people who know you married a black man. You are probably SO MUCH MORE IN TUNE with racism than anyone who has not married a black man ever could be. It may even feel like a constant in your life because people you love, cherish, might even die for, are black. And subjected to racism every day of their lives.
Especially as a white mother of a black child, you may feel anguish over all of the things that you cannot protect your child from.
At any rate, let me know if I get it.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I've gotten shit from both sides black and white. I've seen both my husband and child's victimization by the system. 1SBM thinks that I can never know how it feels to be him and he's correct. But I have felt both my husbands and son's pain along with dealing with my own.
I don't know if 1SBM has children or a partner and I don't want to know, but I do know that as a wife and mother I have felt and have experienced my loved one's pain and yes, at times I have been just as powerless to do or change anything about it just as 1SBM has with his experiences.
And to tell me that I can never know or relate is simply untrue because as a family, we were one. My husband passed a few years ago, but every time my son walks out the door, my heart is in my throat til he walks back in it because I know to some he is nothing but a target.
qwlauren35
(6,155 posts)I don't think my husband knows what angst I go through whenever he is out late, because I worry that he will be arrested - or killed - over something stupid.
I am sorry to hear that you have lost your husband. Mine smokes, so I think he'll go first, and I know it's going to leave me empty.
I am not a mother, but I would not doubt that motherhood inspires prayer, to combat the helplessness. I hope your son comes home safely for as long as you live, and long after.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #91)
Name removed Message auto-removed
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)he has actually told me, A MINORITY, that I have no right to my own life experience. So it is not just whites that he is doing that to. He wants everybody to shut up
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as having happened.
That's NOT a lived experience ... that (self) delusion.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)continue to deny my experience.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This is not a subject allowed on DU alas I engage in it In real time on the streets.
DU has a decreasing number of subject matter that can be discussed. And insults were hurled at a minority as well which was the height of irony.
I run stories regularly that "the group" supposedly is interested in. I just don't, will not, post them here either
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)which still is about you.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you cannot continue to blame just me. That is now quite the trope. Also calling a latina a white supremacist and racist was kind of crossing a few bold red, glowing lines.
I ran this morning a story that should be of interest, (prison recidivism) and if the universe was different, or rather this site was, I would bother posting it here. Alas it is not. So it shan't come here unless somebody else bothers copy pasting. I will not. I do not feel this place is conducive TO ANY valuable discussion.
For the rest, it was not this poster. But it was one in the group that has managed to make it impossible to discuss this subject on DU.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Is that what you were called or what you heard "implied" from a broad description of conduct of some group?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)as well as mentally ill by another in the same series of posts.
So forgive me for concluding that race is not an issue I want to discuss on DU. It joins a long list of other progressive issues, which is kind of odd for a progressive board. But hey, enjoy the echo chamber. We discuss these issues over coffee many a times, regularly, in real life. And gasp, at times of ... solutions too.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and I think I would have remembered that.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it was in GD 3 weeks ago, on a Saturday, Let's just say after the incident I will not step on those toes again. I shan't discuss this issue here, or social justice, or economic justice, or quite frankly anything that interests me here. You know I care... but I do not think DU is a place where anything like this can be actually discussed. Perhaps after silly season... since temperatures do tend to rise during silly season as is.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)In any thread...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)textbook
zappaman
(20,606 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Automated Message
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: One of your posts has been hidden by a DU Jury
Mail Message
On Sun Aug 23, 2015, 05:23 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
I posted the actual posts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=540263
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Poster continues to double down on the lie that she was called a "white supremacist" as if no one can read what was actually said to her in this thread. And is now resorting to personal attacks on anyone that tries to point out her dishonesty. This is at least the second person she's called "divisive" and attacked because they are pointing out her dishonesty. This is not only disruptive but completely bizarre
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Aug 23, 2015, 05:39 PM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.
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Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Explanation: This thread led the poster to replying such as so, on the thread. Took a bit of time to READ the thread before finding a verdict, and its more than obviously the person alerted and called to this jury was trying to defend against what was a barrage of over-the-top comments to the Altered postings, within the thread.
With that, this juror after examining the evidence, elects this post stays put.
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Explanation: One among the many that should be hidden.
CONSEQUENCES OF THIS DECISION
You will no longer be able to participate in this discussion thread, and you will not be able to start a new discussion thread in this forum until 6:39 PM. This hidden post has been added to your <a href="/?com=profile&uid=127191&sub=trans">Transparency page</a>.
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Oh wise one why do you think they were altered? I did not imagine it, and it did happen. You keep denying my experience like a good bully ok.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But this lead me to re-read a couple threads where DUers have accused others of calling them racists, and like in this instance, when pressed, they have only been able to post the Marissa/BLM thing, where apparently, they wish to claim offense.
It got so thick that I had to take a break ... and as I was walking, it struck me ... We have officially enter a strange place where white DUers are doing the same stuff that, if they were Black, some would be calling them out for "Playing the race card".
When it comes to Black grievances, we have to point to exact and specific language that is unquestioningly racist in nature, lest we be dismissed as being "perpetually perturbed" or "race-naggers" ... seeing insult where none exists; but, these white DUers are basing their entire claim on their interpretation of they found, having read between the lines of implied statements made by Black DUers (and our allies) ... And, to make matters worse, unless these aggrieved, and offended, DUers were in Seattle, the comment couldn't possibly have been directed at them!
This is Strange Space we find ourselves.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Which is why I'm doing this
while humming this
'Cause I got, "no time for the fake ones." None.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you should take the person who told you that, at their word.
You want your experience to be respected. You have to respect their experience.
I also posted Jurors views on this, which agreed with me. Some of those jurors are POC as well. Oh and I am by the way. Which is even more ironic. But hey, as I told number23 on her group, I have also been profiled. Not because of my skin color... I can pass. But becuase I cannot once I open my trap. I have been asked, no have had cops demand, to see my papers a few times. You see, I could be an illegal.
Of course that could never ever happen to a Latina . But this is why many of us have concluded that you want an echo chamber, have at it. I cover race, I cover courts, I cover poverty, we do labor as well, social justice, you know things I would think you might be interested in, but I don't feel like they would add anything to the discussion here. Mostly it is not wanted. So, there are other places on the wide world of the internet where these discussions are happening... gasp, some with mostly African American people.
I will leave you with this. You demand respect... you need to give it in return. I don't expect them to ever apologize. They cannot, are incapable of recognizing the hurt they have caused. They are also incapable of empathy. I truly believe that now. So you have at it. Sanctimonious, echo chamber, you got it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)actually.
Have at it...enjoy the echo chamber.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But yup, part of the problem. Something about motes in eyes and logs. You know the saying. As I said, enjoy the echo chamber. Many of us have, and will continue to care...and talk, just not here.
You got your echo chamber, enjoy it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)You wanted one. You got one. Enjoy.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)enjoy the prize.
And that is all you have to say to that, well then, quite telling. Have a good one.
I got some reading to do... some on subjects that I used to think were of interest to you, But rather not from me. I get it. I have to sit down, shut up and take the insults.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Go already.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I am just conceding this subject as one that obviously you want an echo chamber on. You got it. Enjoy.
Though I am sure you would prefer if I left, After all that is the goal, ain't it?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)race matters, just isn't one of them.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)right.
Heavy dose of it actually.
You really are going out of your way to prove why we cannot talk of this,. Please continue with this. It is really wonderful to see this. You will have an echo chamber on DU though. All you want is silence.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Where are we now ... 21 Goodbyes?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)none is telling you good bye.
And that is just for starters.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You stand, pretty much, alone here ... not because it's an echo chamber; but, because you are just so out in left field ... and loudly so.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)
to continue what you consider "discussion" with you. So with that have the last word.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)"Left field is usually seen as red baiting"
"Out of left field" is American slang meaning "unexpectedly", "odd" or "strange". The phrase came from baseball terminology referring to the area covered by the left fielder who has the farthest throw to first base.
"red baiting" from "out in left field" it IS performance art!
wonder what "swing and a miss" means? some kind of antisemitic slur?
"strike out" what is that? an attack on unions?
"home run"?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Kali
(55,042 posts)MIRROR. try one! call a freaking lumberjack while you are at it.
you run around whining about a bullshit personal attack while attacking anybody that questions you about it, whine about being called mentally ill while doing worse to someone else, call people bullies while you condescend, bully and insult everybody here. yeah, that is a pretty big fucking log in YOUR eye.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)See if you can find it cuz I can't...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251535654
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Skinner we need emoticons with the Animal Farm theme, urgently
zappaman
(20,606 posts)One would think a blogger would know their facts, but I guess not.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)by the way, lovely personal attack child.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)here is a newsflash, it is not working.
Understand?
Why the fixation? One might say it is clinical at this point. Hey, I guess we all need hobbies. You really need a new one.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Yeah, that's a personal attack.
Not gonna alert though.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)what you are doing, as stalking.
Just a thought
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Face it, you made up the whole kerflunkle about being called a "white supremacist" and having a "mental illness".
Now the thread has been posted and people can see the real words.
What you are doing, as fantasy.
Just a thought.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)192. Jury results
On Sat Aug 22, 2015, 09:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
And you tripple down in calling a Latina
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=538672
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
what the fucking fuck? NO WHERE does anybody do anything remotely like call nadin a white supremacist.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 22, 2015, 09:42 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yes the master is playing the victim as usual
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm *EXTRA* tired of hearing the "Bernie Sanders supporters are racists" meme. Nadin is about as racist as the moon is made of cheese.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Leave it alone. This is a nasty thread distorting the positions of a whole group of supporters who took offense to being called White Supremacists. Everyone knows what the subtext of this OP is. I will not vote to hide Nadin, one of the sane voices of reason in this thread, especially after the race-baiting and tag-teaming going on by Number23 and her cohorts who can't understand why a racist post calling Bernie supporters ""creepublicans, teahadists, and libertarians" was deservedly hidden. Nadin understood the implication perfectly and so do I. Scarletwoman was out of line in post 121 and 125 where she cruelly accused Nadin of mental illness. Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Censorship alerts suck. Nothing here is against the rules. If the poster was offended by someone else's post she/he has the right to say so.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A poster falsely accusing another of being a "white supremacist" is hideable.
Do not see any hint of any such accusation.
I did not do a thing up. It happened... live with it.
I hold those two posters in utter contempt. You as well, but that is besides the point. You knew you were in that list though, so I doubt that will come as a shock to you.
Do I need to put this alert and the one on a notebook next time you accuse me of lying as to my experience. It happened. Live with it. This is the new DU, A product that you should be proud off.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Thanks for posting!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)LIVE FUCKING LIVE WITH IT OR NOT, You are calling me a liar, and you are out of line, You do this as part of your bullying behavior, It is part of your character assassination as well. You are a class 1 bully, It is now a very unhealthy fixation with you,.
Marr
(20,317 posts)And the usual clique that circles around posters to snap at them like a pack of a little dogs knows it very well.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Explanation: Yes the master is playing the victim as usual
Was that you? And with that the bully needs to be soft ignored again. There is just so much time in the day one can "play" with them.
Kali
(55,042 posts)Are you accusing someone of being mentally ill?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but given I NEVER start the "conversations" with either of you, it is classic stalking behavior.
I should correct myself. I think I have started one or two with Zapa... now that I think about it. He will surely pounce on it, and at this time I think you both have notebooks.
Kali
(55,042 posts)mental illness? I mean, you used the word "clinical" - as in needing treatment for something.
I wonder if that poster will whine about you calling him mentally ill for weeks on end?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Overview
Cyberstalking. Cyberstalking is the use of the Internet, email or other electronic communications to stalk, and generally refers to a pattern of threatening or malicious behaviors. Cyberstalking may be considered the most dangerous of the three types of Internet harassment, based on a posing credible threat of harm. Sanctions range from misdemeanors to felonies.
Cyberharassment. Cyberharassment differs from cyberstalking in that it may generally be defined as not involving a credible threat. Cyberharassment usually pertains to threatening or harassing email messages, instant messages, or to blog entries or websites dedicated solely to tormenting an individual. Some states approach cyberharrassment by including language addressing electronic communications in general harassment statutes, while others have created stand-alone cyberharassment statutes.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-information-technology/cyberstalking-and-cyberharassment-laws.aspx
and let me include a lovely photo...
They are lovely, aren't they?
Kali
(55,042 posts)I sure hope zappaman doesn't feel the need to piss and moan constantly for weeks about you calling him names and mentally ill.
That would get really tiresome.
At least he could link back to the actual evidence, though.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and you too.
I have not made a secret of how I feel about either of you two. You two are indeed bullies, and cyber harassers at the very least. See, I don't deny it. You are what you are. And it is your hobby, who am I to say what people should have as hobbies. I think it is rather unhealthy, but whatever. If you feel you need to do that, even after being told how ineffective it is and how much it does not work, whatever, Ignoring you does not work
So here is another pretty picture. Enjoy, trying to brighten your day... though your day would be much more brightened if the bullying actually worked.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)while complaining that any disagreement with any of their words is a personal attack.
Bizarro world.
It's cute.
betsuni
(25,887 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)We shall find out... interesting avatar you got there.
betsuni
(25,887 posts)I can't imagine what's so intriguing about my avatar.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and why should I buy you a drink?
Anyhoo, Colbert is on...
zappaman
(20,606 posts)You are the master of the personal attack.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I stand by it.
When you stalk that is also a thing. It is you who continues the behavior.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)It reflects more on you, than me, kiddo.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you know EXACTLY what you are doing, trying to push buttons. It is time to move to a new mark kiddo. This mark is just doing this at this point, pointing and laughing at you. It is hilarious that you still continue with this. But hey, you need a hobby, why not? And as a good bully that you are, feel free to have the last word, You guys always need to, part of the issue. It is the one upmanship.
See you next time you stalk ok.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I guess I'm flaterred.
Thanks kiddo!
By the way, I post in AA with no problems. Sad that your despicable behavior got you banned, but I doubt you'll reflect on that.
treestar
(82,383 posts)"There are some mental processes that I simply don't care to try to follow."
apparently means "you have a mental illness."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=538748
zappaman
(20,606 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Aerows (33,132 posts)
192. Jury results
On Sat Aug 22, 2015, 09:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
And you tripple down in calling a Latina
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=538672
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
what the fucking fuck? NO WHERE does anybody do anything remotely like call nadin a white supremacist.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 22, 2015, 09:42 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yes the master is playing the victim as usual
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm *EXTRA* tired of hearing the "Bernie Sanders supporters are racists" meme. Nadin is about as racist as the moon is made of cheese.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Leave it alone. This is a nasty thread distorting the positions of a whole group of supporters who took offense to being called White Supremacists. Everyone knows what the subtext of this OP is. I will not vote to hide Nadin, one of the sane voices of reason in this thread, especially after the race-baiting and tag-teaming going on by Number23 and her cohorts who can't understand why a racist post calling Bernie supporters ""creepublicans, teahadists, and libertarians" was deservedly hidden. Nadin understood the implication perfectly and so do I. Scarletwoman was out of line in post 121 and 125 where she cruelly accused Nadin of mental illness. Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Censorship alerts suck. Nothing here is against the rules. If the poster was offended by someone else's post she/he has the right to say so.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A poster falsely accusing another of being a "white supremacist" is hideable.
Do not see any hint of any such accusation.
treestar
(82,383 posts)in both threads 121 and 125 are your posts.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)As I said, I hold those two in utter contempt. It happened, I was this close to leaving. I was quite miffed. and to be honest, still am. Why a slew of other supposedly progressive subjects will not be posted on DU by me. Never mind they are my beat.
I just do not want to risk the ire of those two people again... and the irony of calling a minority names was kind of cute in a thread like that. What I love is being told I lied about it, when I did not. But hey. whatever.
I have avoided posting the actual identities of those two... because I think it's really between them and me, and the community standards will fail every time and twice on Sunday. I just find it highly ironic.
On edit, to be honest, I do not feel I should have to defend myself from this crap... or defend myself when I say something actually happened. The denial that something happened is a denial of somebody else's experience. The irony is that those two (rightfully so) complain that their experience is never recognized by the majority community, but my experience on this board is denied by some posters. Doubly so when these posters accuse me of denying the minority experience since I am supposedly part of a majority community when I am a member of not one, but TWO minorities.
It is one of those irony things that really I could not write up in a fiction story and have it pass muster with an editor.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I do not do this. You do though. Cute.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Literally. Every single time.
Upthread, she actually posted where her own post was hidden because people could see the dishonesty.
And the fact that what is now, THREE WEEKS LATER, the person is still braying about it just makes it even funnier. It brings the dishonesty about what was said and by whom to a whole new audience every single time. So hopefully, they'll keep it up until this whole web site knows what happened. That would be fine with me.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)To say the least.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Between the stupid little message from a juror (not that it was at all difficult to figure out who it was) on one of those alerts and this person's insistence on running around DU screaming about this idiocy WEEKS later, scarlet woman and I are the ones that should still be hollering about this.
And yet, we aren't. The person only shooting themselves in their quest to make others look bad, not to mention the PM's I got that day and still get everytime this person brings this up make all of the screaming incredibly worthwhile.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but bullies do what they do.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)nor do I intend to name you again.
Suffice it to say, due to YOUR ACTIONS, yes, YOUR ACTIONS, I refrain from posting material that may even be of interest to YOU, such as prison issues and recidivism in the state of California. I read shit that trust me, not even you read. Mostly I doubt you subscribe to the government email lists I sub to.
You might want to ask your friend, with friends like those who needs, well you know, to stop lying. And you might want to stop denying that you did something that was quite hurtful. I am easy. I accept apologies.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I'm sorry. What?
And as for your threat about not posting stories that will be of interest to ME (in ALL CAPS NO LESS) from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU. Seriously.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but you might want to read the rest of this, Might be of interest that it is not just me who avoids discussing these issues on DU anymore. Congrats. You are one of the reasons.
have an excellent life, I mean it.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Yet another sincere THANK YOU from me to you.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)So you know...
It was quite painful, hurtful, and shocking. DU should not allow those kinds of attacks, but it does. And coming from somebody who should know better, it is even worst. You did cross bright red lines.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I told you once before and apparently I need to say it to you again -- you and I don't have a damn thing to say to one another. All of your dishonest and needless whining and sobbing is wasting your time more than it's wasting mine.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)no hard iggy lists anymore
And you are correct, we have nothing to say to each other So if you want to put me on ignore, please do.. I will not. None of the bullies or in this case you, will ever be on a hard ignore list ever, and I mean, ever again. But when people realize they have seriously hurt somebody else. common courtesy would indicate an apology is in order.
The high holidays are approaching, not your religious tradition. But I will apologize to you quite publicly right now. For whatever you believe I did to you. Somewhere I did hurt you, My tradition demands I do. My tradition is quite wise about this. And I will leave that door open to you. Suffice to say, you did hurt me, badly.
Response to Number23 (Reply #228)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)I even checked to see if scarlet had edited her posts and they weren't. Nor did anyone can get mentally ill.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Be specific, names or at least the group.
Otherwise, dont say anything.
Right?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)sorry
randys1
(16,286 posts)And yet I am the one who best be god damn careful what I say, or else.
fuck
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I know I walk on eggshells and do not discuss this here, even though it is close to my heart and interests. Just not here.
randys1
(16,286 posts)and white privileged assholes has to watch every word.
I have had post after post hidden by white people with hurt feelings
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it is kind of our beat, and labor. I have not posted anything here that has a thing to do with it on DU after what I like to term "the incident." and I was ready to walk away from the place as well. Pissed does not start to describe it.
randys1
(16,286 posts)I do know that there is a tiny group of Black people on this site who have to watch every word they say, or else.
That I know
by tiny I mean there are so few POC left here
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but I also know that some of us will not participate with that small group.
randys1
(16,286 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)even as an immigrant.
Thanks
randys1
(16,286 posts)here.
Who are you talking about?
I seriously want to know, you see I hang in the AfAm group because I have found ALL POC there to be genuine and wonderful.
You surely dont mean them?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but you are giving perfect examples.
Glad you feel welcome there, I don't. And I have good reason not to.
randys1
(16,286 posts)No wonder we have such problems
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)i was the one called a few choice names by a well known person of color on this board, and mentally insane by another.
That is not an attitude. That is just rude. And I do not feel safe around those two people, at all, one bit, not at all, nyet, lo, no. And if they (I am sure they have done this to others), it means that we cannot have any fruitful discussion, now can we?
You have fun thinking otherwise.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It should lead to a moment of self reflection, but it has not, nor will it lead to that
Fortunately we are indeed having those discussions... just not on DU. There are so many discussions and subject matter that is simply not happening here, that are supposedly progressive, that cannot be done here.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)in light of the bizarre, chickenshit way your little group blocked me. That's the truth from my perspective.
Thankfully, DU has an appropriately named 'trash this forum' feature and your AA group is where it belongs.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and ask yourself WHY you might have been blocked.
The AA Group, for years, had a very short Block list (until recently, it averaged -month to month-less than 4), and then, after several warnings. The criteria for blocking had never been merely disagreement with, or even vocalizing a dissenting opinion; but rather, repeated attempts to shout down Group members with unreasoned/fallacious argument and/or snark.
That changed shortly after BLM, when DUers felt a need to follow Black DUers into the AA Group to aggressively attack Black DUers, and the rash of alert stalking of Black DUers. We saw an up-tick in alerts on Black DUers that had posted, clearly, non-offensive posts, throughout DU; but, noticeably posting to the AA Group ... we even had a Host alerted on and hidden for warning a particularly aggressive poster that his/her attacks on a frequent AA Group poster, were unwelcome.
The host decided to go to a "One Strike" rule; but, retained the Blocking criteria, i.e., repeated attempts to shout down Group members with unreasoned/fallacious argument and/or snark.
I suspect ... no, witnessed, you being that kind of poster.
But ... it appears that your complaint has self-resolved; not through, self-reflection ... but rather, through your "trashing the Group", and for that ... I am thankful.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)"Stalking"..."aggressive attack"..."repeated attempts to shout down Group members"..."unreasoned/fallacious argument"..."snark".
None of that has any bearing whatsoever to my very short debut in AA. I gave an honest answer to a poster's honest question...which was pounced on immediately...followed by my summary dismissal.
You were projecting then and you're projecting now. Your appeal to "self-reflection" makes me laugh.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the irony of what 5 people continue to do is lost on them.
There is a need for people to unite,. but if I have particularly 2 people by my side,. I expect something nasty, so I will take my ball and go home.
They want an echo chamber, let's give them one. When they even go after other minorities it is quite telling actually.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)I've been coming to DU regularly for almost 15 years. You and many others were early heroes to me. I found a place where impassioned, intelligent, challenging, reflective, and reasoned debate over political and social matters took place at a high level on a daily basis.
I was humbled, challenged, and inspired to learn more about the important issues of the day and to improve my ability to express my ideas in writing.
Names change and people come and go. There are still excellent voices at DU and I hope it will always remain that way.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And this subject is one that will receive like no attention from me on DU from now on
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that has already been demonstrated as to NOT have happened.
How many times are you going to say you are gone before you actually leave?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)are conceding the echo chamber to you. When there is a clear innabitly to recognize somebody else's experience as well valid... You have won. Enjoy the echo chamber.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)free of your "minority" opinion (pun intended).
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and as an immigrant from another country and from Mexico no less. I am a minority.
See, textbook. But my experience is far less valid than yours, and in your eyes of course I am not a minority.
Let's check some numbers, of which I think I have an authority, though I suspect you will tell me I do not.
(1.4 percent of the total United States population is Jewish,)
And here
As of 2013, approximately 11.6 million Mexican immigrants resided in the United Statesup from 2.2 million in 1980and Mexicans accounted for 28 percent of the country's 41.3 million foreign born.Oct 9, 2014
Mexican Immigrants in the United States | migrationpolicy.org
www.migrationpolicy.org/.../mexican-immigrants...Migration Policy Institute
But when you deny even these facts, have at it. I guess next you will tell me I have never, ever been discriminated against as well.
This is why people will shy from these issues here. You just provided a textbook example. Congrats, pat yourself on the back.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)on your false that someone called you ... an immigrant Latina of Jewish descent ... a white supremacist or a racist. Nor, do they have any bearing on your minority opinion regarding DU being a racial echo chamber.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and again you are telling me that what I experienced is invalid. Yet you will get bent out of shape when people deny your experience. It is kind of hilarious at this point. Some might even call it projection.
And you will have an echo chamber. You already do, read this fucking thread, People are walking on eggshells around these issues on this site. Congrats, you built that, Now FUCKING OWN IT!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you were called it! In fact, it has been demonstrated by your own links that you, were NOT called a white supremacist, or a racist.
So, yeah! ... Your experience is invalid!
22 Goodbyes ... Goodbyes ... Goodbyes ...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)as I said, you get bent out of shape when people tell you that it is not that bad, whatever it is, but deny others their experience. It is tragic actually... but it is part of how victims behave actually. I recognize your experience, and I mean the whole slew of it. I won't say what I recognize here, becuase you will deny I recognize it. But you even deny my day to day experience off DU or in this case on DU.
It is classic, but you built this. Enjoy. When you speak of issues that matter to you (and me) you will be met by increasing levels of silence, which you will claim are violence or indifference. Well then, when you repeatedly deny that people care, and just tell them to shut up and in my case deny my experience, you built that. Enjoy. It is not indifference. Just we are tired of the bullshit.
And people sooner or later walk away from the bullshit. At least on this site, enjoy the echo chamber. You got it.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)"DU sucks. I won't post all the important info from my blog here because it is a cesspool. I won't be here much longer"
That would save you from constantly telling everyone how much DU sucks, how you won't post the "really important stuff" and how you can't wait to leave.
Just trying to be helpful.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I don't think those a majority of those jurors said what you heard them say.
ETA: 23 Goodbyes ... Goodbyes ... Goodbyes ...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and they are PoC, yes they saw it.
As I said, go and continue denying this. Should I deny your experience while we are at it? I won't. But now I know you will continue to do that. It is tragic actually. But you and your friends have shut down meaningful discussion. You wanted it, you got it. Just next do not claim we are racist or something for not engaging you in these matters.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:22 PM - Edit history (1)
25 Goodbyes ... Goodbyes ... Goodbyes ...
(Get it? ... that's the echo in the chamber!)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I don't like bullies either.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Only some PoC. And one in that crowd has called a Latina, that be me, racist and white supremacist.
Because of that I know DU is the absolute last place to discuss... Issues
ismnotwasm
(42,037 posts)Interesting.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Or were you just unfairly victimized?
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)not a one of them was alerted on or hidden. No, I'm not a victim, I have never been a victim. I expressed disdain for what I felt was broad brush painting of a group of people and it was not appreciated. I will say, that at the time, I did not realize I was not responding to a post in GD but in a group that I may not have posted it in if I had realized it at the time.
I have since blocked the group from my latest page so that mistake will not be made again. But I do have to say, that I resent that if I make a derogatory generalization about people of color I would have my post alerted on, have it called bigoted and possibly hidden, but that it is perfectly okay for poc to post a broad brush generalization about white liberals and it not be considered bigoted.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)And that is why I have come to the conclusion that when it comes to race, any honest discussion is not wanted here at Democratic Underground.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I concluded a while ago that there is growing list of things that people do not want to discuss here.
Sad, but true, this place is not even a shadow of what it once was.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)It is a very bizarre and peculiar phenonmenon. On the one hand, we have daily examples of institutional racism, and black people who achieve against those odds. On the other hand, we have an entrenched system of inequality that has affected black people, and poor people, that continues to produce alarmingly dismal syatistics. Coincidentally, both parties "win" by demonizing and punishing all maginalized groups, so we have no real opposition, or allies.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Here I am once again being told to confess my privilege, but then if I confess to my privilege, (which I feel I have- on more than one occasion), I'm told that I am making it all about me and not listening and I should just shut up. How many times do I have to listen to the same spiel? What is the end game? Is my input in helping to resolve the issue wanted? Or am I just the designated person who is to be used to take anger out on when we're not all in agreement? Because I gotta tell ya, I am so past that.
Many individuals here are bitter and angry and honestly, I think those causing the most discourse here are some of the white people who seem to be tripping over themselves in their attempt to prove how "not racists" they are. But hey, it's all good as long as they're brown nosing and ass kissing the few POC whose anger they can exploit. They play the part of the advocate for the few angry POC. They serve as their attack dogs when someone posts something that doesn't go along with the group think. I don't know why they feel they have to jump in and defend POC- could it be because they feel that POC are not capable of defending themselves? In fact, there are white individuals in this very thread who have been more vicious in their snark and insults than any person of color has ever been. IMO, they are just trying a bit too hard- and I find myself wondering if they are suffering from a huge amount of white guilt or if they are struggling very hard to disguise their own deep seated bigotries? Over compensation, I think it's called. There doesn't seem to be one person of color here that is on to it, and if there is- they're not calling any of them out on it. So I can only assume that they approve of their methods.
At some point one has to let the anger and bitterness go in order to move forward. The anger and bitterness some harbor doesn't hurt anyone but themselves in long run- and if it can't be gotten past, there will never be any resolution or closure.
So yeah, I'm done discussing race, racism and bigotry here. As I told one person, go ahead and resolve the issue here at DU, you can let me know when it's all better- and in her very best white privileged manner, she white splained to me that- it is what she thought was best. So I guess white splaining is acceptable here after all as long as it is done on behalf of POC and not to POC
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Thanks for sharing.
Blue_Adept
(6,406 posts)Seen it far too often, make sure to extricate myself from such conversations quickly because you can see it coming easily.
I do what I can in the real world and with my voting as well as watching my own language as I am a part of the culture that I had grown up in and do what I can to change knowingly. But beyond that, there's little that I can do and talking about it gets you a whole lot of "you need to listen" responses from a lot of folks. And I do plenty of listening and have for years. I can only agree with what you said here completely.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)on the past and present actions of white people, and solely on the feelings of black people, there is no point in having a discussion.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Couldn't agree more. Isn't it strange, we both see the same things?
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I think it is strange that others don't.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)There is only one poster among the "sit down and shut up" crowd whom I truly believe to mean what she says.
And I have seen more minorities on DU occasionally state their opposition to the "sit down and shut up" crowd than there are those telling us to shut up. But the "shut up" crowd are prolific posters. The other DUers are not going to make hundreds of posts a day defending us against them.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)because I did not see it in the past.
840high
(17,196 posts)in my circle of friends. Not on DU.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Many of us who are committed to social justice, because of a small crew we will not discuss social justice on a supposedly progressive board. It's not that they "won." We are simply not gonna do it here
They can have their virtual echo chamber. I got real life. You got real life.
Perhaps some day they might reflect on it. I just doubt it
840high
(17,196 posts)we all know who the small group is.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Response to notadmblnd (Reply #23)
jwirr This message was self-deleted by its author.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)title. Why bother to discuss it. Nothing we have ever done and said made any difference. I suspect this is exactly why no one wants to discuss this issue. There is a great difference between discussion and accusation.
I keep up on the issues as much as I can and continue to do what I can but I no longer join the discussion.
Response to notadmblnd (Reply #23)
jwirr This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to notadmblnd (Reply #23)
jwirr This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to notadmblnd (Reply #23)
jwirr This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to notadmblnd (Reply #23)
jwirr This message was self-deleted by its author.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)NO ONE likes to be stereotyped - NO ONE
randys1
(16,286 posts)or on the internet.
I cant speak for people in homeless environments, there are stronger attitudes and for good reason with folks at the bottom, who might not have the patience to hear white people whine about stuff, but outside of that world I have never had or SEEN that play out, not ever, not once, not here, not anywhere.
(By the bottom I simply mean those at the bottom of our economic ladder)
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)It's gotten to the point where any white person who has even a marginally different perspective, opinion or life experience is automatically labeled a racist and the legitimacy of that person to even participate on DU comes into question.
Thank you for expressing it more eloquently than I would have.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)by the way, read the rest of this. It is lovely actually, and not in a good way lovely.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)I slept badly last night and am not particularly sharp today. Could you draw me a little bit of a clearer picture?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)when many of us are now drawing not good lessons, and now want to just avoid the whole discussion, on DU mind you.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)sick of those assholes - they complain about the lack of "discussion" when they themselves effectively ended any discussion outside an echo chamber......f*** them
Monk06
(7,675 posts)This applies to sexual as well as racial identity. Hard liners have assumed an approach involving a secular version of original sin. If you are white you're indicted by 'your' racial past and destined to perpetuate it as a form of genetic destiny that is inescapable.
The same goes for the 'rape culture' warriors. If you are a male you are a rapist both potentially and in fact by dint of being male in a male dominated culture. All your attempts to side with progressive forces will come to naught. You are condemned to drag your testicles around like a ball and chain.
The truth is the Identity Politics Maoists, as I call them, are not interested in your thoughts or what you have to say in sympathy or solidarity with progressive forces in society. You are guilty at birth and you carry your sins unto the third generation and beyond. You have only one choice, to stand in the public square and admit your born and bred guilt and bias. No protest is acceptable.
These were the same tactics used by the left fascist Red Guards during the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Now the children of those cadres run China which nobody would claim is a fair and free society.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I wonder if it is an internet fad, because it is not my experience in the real world?
Monk06
(7,675 posts)the Cultural Revolutionaries of Identity politics have relegated academia to a ghetto for disaffected middle class millennials who are pampered and intolerant of any criticism or disciplinary demands placed upon them.
They arrive at university already fully formed and incorrigible. Any suggestions that their experience at school might enlarge their knowledge of history or art are met with post modernist slogans and conceits borrowed from Foucault and Derrida, two of the most pernicious and nihilist academics to come down the pike.
In the guise of anti enlightenment critique they have created two generations of conformist cultural studies dogmatists who have nothing worthwhile to ad to literature, history or philosophy while turning Liberal Arts into a parody.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but these days it has expanded.
It is like semiotics (people who study signs and symbolic meaning) It used to be confined to linguistics and some history departments. DAMN YOU DERRIDA AND FOUCAULT!!!! These days the cool kids do it. Most not well mind you.
Identity politics can be a serious issue at times, but to be honest it is mostly an internet, cool kids things. Trust me, the kids in the hood care for neither...
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I think they want to keep us apart. If we don't join up with eachother we lose in every way. If we don't vote we lose and these types of actions drive people apart and keep them from the polls. It feels like an assault to be honest, very convoluted though. Ugly stuff.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)A very apt description! They redefine the majority's individuals (men, whites, etc., fill in any blank) as pathological, simply asserting that redefinition without any actual reason, and use that as a foundational "premise" to proceed to further flights of logical absurdity. Nobody looks back and notices that there isn't any premise to begin with.
I don't know much about the "maoists" in academia, but I do know that what they're spouting as posted here on DU, is a load of hooey.
I've noticed that "discussions" are all about creating an opportunity to bring up the same hot air points (or more accurately accusations) over and over again as an end in itself, it's never about fixing anything, or making any actual progress. Anytime someone asks them, what specific things can be done to improve the situation, there's NEVER any answer. It's more or less: just accept that you're the problem and that you're sick.
No thanks, I'll pass.
From there apparently we're all supposed to sit and absorb their wisdom further detailing how sick we are. A few in the majority are into self-rejection enough to do that, and become almost like evangelical "converts", but most see that exercise for what it is... a transparent psychological manipulation game, an attempted gaslighting.
Actually, it reminds me of my one encounter (that's all I needed to see through it) with Scientology many years ago. It was abusive nonsense. Why anyone signs on for that, I do not know.
Just to be clear (cool pseudo-pun, eh) mostly for the other side in this thread: I'm not "uncomfortable", I'm not "fearful", I'm not on a "guilt trip", or any of the other possible attributed cover stories for most of DU's non-acceptance of this philosophy... I'm just not buying it.
The emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)You hit the nail square outta the park!
Preach Everyman, Preach!
I really get disgusted by this blank ascription of "fear."
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Now I see that it's exactly the same thing that was hashed out here over and over for years in the HoF (History of Feminism Group) Wars. This is HoF 2.0, just change the feminist words for race terms. Bingo! Same deal all over again. The privilege crap can circle on down the toilet bowl to the same place the patriarchy crap went.
That puts it to bed for me. They can have their echo chamber to themselves.
(No I take that back. I won't "feed" threads beating the identity politics drum which are clearly of, by, and for the Echo Chamber, but I reserve the option to challenge or unmask this crap elsewhere when it seems necessary.) The main reason why I'm in this thread is that it's directing a question to the majority.
If any African Americans and PoC want to leave that bogus pseudo-philosophy behind and actually talk about what the problems are today and what can be done about it, I'm ready to pay attention for that.
Frankly I think this board is owed an apology. This identity politics schtick, as promoted first by HoF and now by AA, is nothing but a huge trolling philosophy. There's nothing about getting anything done in it. It's purely about creating fights and divisions. Academia should be ashamed for inventing it. But for them, it's a meal ticket so honesty doesn't count when there's money to be made. (For any who don't understand that, see Monk06's posts above.)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)semiotics (search for symbolic meaning) which is what this is down to, has a role in academia. In fact, a strong role in academia. Here is the problem as I see. After all, I did work with the grand daddy of all this with deconstruction (Thanks Derrida and Foucault), in graduate seminars trying to understand how language and symbols are part of a larger system of oppression. The system is real, and in that sense they are a great tool. Trust me, using deconstruction while looking at 18th and 19th century New Spain documents relating to the history of science was very valuable. We were trying to get into the mind of the bishop of Guadalajara for example... not a dude I would like to meet.
The problem is when all these things are ahem popularized, as it were, and come out into the wild, where people have a cow over a word because they heard this was bad in a class or read it in a book somewhere... most of these people have college degrees and cannot understand how their language concerns are the last thing a poor woman, many a times single parent and sometimes minority could give two shits about. Now talk of work hours, and child, care, she's there. That is very real for her.
BUT... when people take what could be valuable as a high level discussion and convert it into almost a religion, they do a lot of damage to their own cause. The kids in the streets care two shits about semiotics and semantics. And we at times do talk about it... hell we have had a very interesting discussion on FB over the term inmate. I am still mulling over how it is more dehumanizing than prisoner...a request a local activist made. That sadly is not a discussion we can have here.
But what both groups have done is now make sure the rest of us keep a very wide berth from them and their idiocy. Next you will see accusations that obviously our silence means we don't care. Mark my words. That is coming.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)I've read it here numerous times already bemoaning the thin response to certain threads, so you're right about that. But I don't care what's said about how we don't care. That's all a lot of excuse-making spin to protect a fiction. It's worthless.
I get your point above, and that's fine, but it still strikes me as: 1) similar to what ISIS and the religious right, and numerous other cults do -- they take some obscure point of analysis and build a programming tool out of it; 2) irrelevant, that squabbling over words needs to end. As you noted, in real life who the hell cares about the history of nuances in the connotations of words? For those in academia who care, fine, but I agree that the problem comes when it's popularized (or heavily promoted) out into the real world, it becomes a dangerous strain of HAIRSPLITTING. It's a method to avoid the point via toxic trivia.
Words are fascinating, I get that, I'm with you on that one (to that end I studied Ancient Greek with one of the best university profs left on the planet for two years in the 1980s), but in a political context what's wanted is clarity. It's more appropriate to use words by their broadly understood meanings today. The conversation is today.
Anyway, your post above is a thoughtful one, on points well taken, and very illuminating nadin, and I'm very glad you took the time to reply.
(p.s. That hooha that went on in those other subthreads above was ridiculous. We all can see what's really going on.)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)what is truly gobsmacking to me, is that I am a minority, and speaking of language and American definitions of race a PoC. but since I do not tow THEIR LINE, of course I cannot be. This is even more telling than anything else.
But semiotics and semantics does belong somewhere, and if they wanted to actually have a graduate level discussion... with lots of reading and all that... sure. But that is not what they want. What they want is an echo chamber. And you know how you can tell how much of one they have right now? There was a major decision today at a certain American City over police issues. I have posted that story ELSEWHERE. But I have yet to see a single thread on that here. It just broke very early this morning... and was confirmed somewhat later today.
The fact that none of us feels like posting it... and that they have not... is incredibly telling. Or that the stories over the last week, have not been posted here either.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)The fact that you are shut out as a PoC is the same thing done to some of us dissernting women in the HoF war era. They (the identity warriors) only tolerate their own message, that's a major similarity with cults and the religious right. All dissenters are ostracized, so as not to disturb the programming that keeps the cult nice and cohesive.
The event that took place somewhere which nobody cares about is very telling too. I hadn't had a chance to get throught the page of thread titles on GD yet, so I hadn't noticed that before you pointed it out. But yes, that's rather ASTONISHING!
I feel like Alice in Wonderland here some days.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And if you go to the actual forum, nada posted there either...
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)And that sums up the whole approach in general, come to think of it.
You'd think with the really serious, actual issues that abound now, they might think about putting away the finger pointing and focus more on uniting to get some changes done. I don't get it. But no, that's white people telling them what to do, we can't have that!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)why this echo chamber will be rather revealing.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)racist and bigoted roots are.
Stop hating. Embrace your brother/sister as yourself.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)while blacks are 100% modern human. I wonder if that has any effect on race relations.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)White skin evolved about 8,000 years ago in Europe.
http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin
Neanderthals are commonly accepted to have gone extinct about 40,000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Although you're correct, that it's been commonly accepted that they had died out 30-40,000 years ago, new scientific studies opened the debate that Neanderthals didn't go extinct but began to breed with Homo Sapiens, and "were assimilated within the expanding human population".
Scientific debate regarding the demise of the Neanderthals has been ongoing for decades with many experts proposing factors such as climate change, competition for resources, of lack of intelligence for possible causes behind the extinction of the Neanderthals around 30,000 40,000 years ago. But now new research published in the journal PLOS ONE suggests that Neanderthals didnt go extinct at all. Rather they vanished gradually over time by interbreeding and assimilation with early humans.
Dr Paola Villa, from the University of Colorado Museum, and Professor Wil Roebroeks, from Leiden University, wrote in the online journal Public Library of Science ONE argue that the differences between the two human sub-species are not enough on their own to account for the extinction of the Neanderthals research has found that the genomes of Homo sapiens and Neanderthals are 99.84 percent genetically identical, and have fewer than 100 proteins that differ in their amino acid sequence.
Experts have theorised that Neanderthals died out because they were mentally, technologically and culturally inferior to the Homo sapiens and unable to compete for limited resources. But Dr Villa and Professor Roebroeks have said in their report, we conclude that all the archaeology-based explanations for the demise of the Neanderthals are flawed.
The scientists conducted an analysis on archaeological evidence dating back 200,000 years and found that Neanderthals made effective tools and weapons, wore ornaments such as eagle claws, used ochre, ate plants and fish as well as big game, used fire to produce pitch from tree bark, and created organised living spaces in their caves. In many cases this was happening before the arrival of modern humans, so the behaviours could not have been copied from them. This demonstrates that the Neanderthals were not inferior to early humans in what they could achieve.
Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/new-study-suggests-neanderthals-never-went-extinct-001603#ixzz3lB4KLPE9
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)They couldn't possibly have been any worse than we are or were and I suspect they may well have been better.
Certainly we can quibble over the exact definition of "extinct" but there are no more pure Neanderthals around and haven't been for tens of thousands of years.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I appreciate your posts and links. I'll return to read them later. Thanks!
Xithras
(16,191 posts)It's incorrect to say that white skin evolved 8,000 years ago in Europe. What the actual research said was that Europeans didn't become "white" until around 8,000 years ago, when they interbred with the already-white migrants moving into Europe from the Eurasian steppe and the near east.
Basically, the current research on the origins of white skin suggests this: About 40,000 years ago, the ancestors of modern Eurasians migrated into Europe and Central Asia. These people very likely looked like modern Ethiopians. While vitamin D deficiency is an issue for people living anywhere in northern Eurasia, those on the European peninsula did not experience any significant change in skin color because they were able to acquire the vitamin from fish and other seafood, much as modern Inuit do. Further east, in the landlocked Eurasian heartland (where Russia is today) and in the extreme north, where glaciers still prevented access to the sea, solar radiation levels were lowest, and where the use of thick clothing prevented natural vitamin D production, skin began to lighten fairly quickly as a survival adaptation. Genetic studies indicate that the genes for white skin were already fairly widespread in that population 19,000 years ago, and the assumption is that those people were probably distinctly "whiter" than their neighbors at least 25,000 years ago.
Between 11,000 and 8,000 years ago, these genes began appearing further west, indicating that a population shift was taking place and that the original darker skinned Europeans were interbreeding with their eastern neighbors. White skin would have been a major reproductive advantage throughout Europe, which explains why it spread so quickly and thoroughly. Unlike their darker skinned ancestors, the Europeans with the genes for white skin would not have been dependent on trade for access to vitamin D rich foods, their health would have been less dependent on whims of weather or war, and they would have had the ability to migrate into areas of Europe that would have previously been inhospitable to people dependent on a seafood diet. In fact, the influx of white skin into the European peninsula DOES coincide with a population shift throughout Europe that transitioned it from a culture where nearly all of the population resided on the coasts (while Europe has always had an interior population, its interior numbers were relatively small until around 10,000 years ago, with the bulk of the population living within 100 miles of a coastline). Starting about 10,000 years ago, inland population numbers began to rise steadily. While this isn't provable, this inland shift can probably be attributed to the reduced dependence on ocean resources for survival as the population whitened.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/population.html
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Our major cities are on the coast because, for most of the past 2000 years, sea based trade has been an important aspect of our economic systems. 10,000 years ago, there was no sea based trade in Europe (or anywhere else, for that matter). At that time, European populations hugged the coast for a far more fundamental reason. Without vitamin D, your reproductive success drops, you develop musculoskeletal and cardiovascular issues, cancer rates climb, and even your intelligence declines. The importance of vitamin D to the human body can't be understated, which is why we initially developed the ability to create our own. When humans migrated into parts of the world where our built in vitamin D production strategies no longer worked, the easiest workaround was to simply consume it in seafood. This largely limited human populations in Europe to areas where seafood could either be caught directly, or be carried on foot before spoiling. Generally speaking, you're talking about one or two days walk.
But keep in mind that we're also talking about relative populations here. 10,000 years ago, you could have walked from the modern Czech Republic, across southern Germany, and into central France without ever seeing another human being. There WERE people there, but the population was very small and spread out. At the same time, if you tried to walk from Denmark to Calais, France, you probably would have run into other humans every few hours or so. While the populations along the coast were still a fraction of what we see today, they were orders of magnitude larger than the population that existed inland. This is largely because they NEEDED the ocean to stay alive.
As Europe whitened and the dependence of Europeans on the sea for essential nutrients declined, people were able to migrate further inland and settle previously inhospitable areas.
Freelancer
(2,107 posts)Unless I'm mistaken, there was never a permanent steady-state in Africa. There were climate changes, migrations, tribal bifurcations, etc. Though it's undeniable that people that went to populate the northern areas became lighter, as the temperatures rose in Africa at the end of the last ice age, the people there may have also gotten darker. Who knows? Maybe the parent race of modern humans more closely resembled the Maori.
It's interesting to speculate.
ShrimpPoboy
(301 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)of the darker more able modern humans as they were slowly causing them to go "extinct". Maybe that made the Neanderthals more genetically xenophobic.
ShrimpPoboy
(301 posts)And here I was thinking racism was learned.
Response to ErikJ (Reply #27)
psychmommy This message was self-deleted by its author.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"Race" as understood today is a very recent (in terms of history) political construct with its origins in the anglo-American slave trade. As such it is very much post-neanderthal.
What's more, that "1-3%" of the genes amounts to pretty much nothing but a few mitochondrial markers. We're not Jedi, the origins of our mitochondria isn't especially important to the way we function. And if it did, well, we'd have to wonder about Fijians and their 6% denisovan DNA.
Third, the division isn't really "white" and "black," but rather between Eurasians and Africans. Eurasians (Including native Americans) who went north from the Indian basin bumped into (and bumped with) neandertals and Denisovans; some groups did both. Which leads us to the next point...
There was a lot of fucking going on between then and now. Like seriously, that's several thousand generations of people. And if you know anything about humans, we like to travel as much as we like to fuck. Those Eurasian Mixer genes came back to Africa at many times in human history. There wasn't a lot of spread beyond northern and eastern Africa - 'cause those were the primary points of contact and there are some real geographic barriers involves. And to be truly aware, you gotta realize that modern humans were busy "incorporating" the last remains of ergaster and rhodesiensis into their genome before leaving Africa.
Marr
(20,317 posts)That same argument would very rightly earn you a ban if it was turned around. I don't think the solution here is inverting the last century's crudest racial insults.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)like palmistry or phrenology.
They can now identify where genes come from in each human. This article is from Nat'l Geographic's Genographic Project.
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/neanderthal/
Why am I Neanderthal
When our ancestors first migrated out of Africa around 60,000 years ago, they were not alone. At that time, at least two other species of hominid cousins walked the Eurasian landmassNeanderthals and Denisovans. As our modern human ancestors migrated through Eurasia, they encountered the Neanderthals and interbred. Because of this, a small amount of Neanderthal DNA was introduced into the modern human gene pool.
Everyone living outside of Africa today has a small amount of Neanderthal in them, carried as a living relic of these ancient encounters. A team of scientists comparing the full genomes of the two species concluded that most Europeans and Asians have between 1 to 4 percent Neanderthal DNA. Indigenous sub-Saharan Africans have no Neanderthal DNA because their ancestors did not migrate through Eurasia.
On one level, its not surprising that modern humans were able to interbreed with their close cousins. According to one theory, Neanderthals, Denisovans, and modern humans are all descended from the ancient human Homo heidelbergensis. Between 300,000 to 400,000 years ago, an ancestral group of H. heidelbergensis left Africa and then split shortly after. One branch ventured northwestward into West Asia and Europe and became the Neanderthals. The other branch moved east, becoming Denisovans. By 130,000 years ago H. heidelbergensis in Africa had become Homo sapiens. Our modern human ancestors did not begin their own exodus from Africa until about 60,000 years ago, when they expanded into Eurasia and encountered their ancient cousins.
.......................
Marr
(20,317 posts)What's surprising is hearing it used to suggest that one race of people is more primitive than another.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Probably not as much as misinterpreted and stupid pseudo-scientific hypotheses.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)Most of the time I just try to hear what they are saying, deal with the usual internal defensiveness, and move on.
I try to engage occasionally, but I generally get the vibe that unless I agree 100%, then I "just don't get it."
Warpy
(111,529 posts)especially when they smugly think they've overcome any early conditioning they had. Some of them are barely concealed bigots but most of them are nice enough people without the insight they need to discuss things openly.
I grew up in the Jim Crow south. There is no way anyone who did that escaped without having the seeds of bigotry planted. It's been a lifelong process to root them out and I'm still not done.
Whether or not they admit it, most people my age are likely to be in the same headspace. It just hurts them to try to talk about it because they know their past.
Texas Blues
(55 posts)We whites have been discriminating against non-whites since 1492, and it is far worse today. Therefore, the poster is right that whites (including me) have no clue on how to talk about race. My take is this: We need to have our government force whites to acknowledge and pay for reparations to non-whites (mainly African Americans, but Latinos as well). Otherwise, nothing will have been made right.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,041 posts)Is there a day in there, a month ... or just somewhere in general in the year 1492; racism started.
Before the US "discovery" in 1492 there was no racism in the world? Just "our" government .. or "every" government.
Who pays what, and who gets what? This a yearly stipend, or a one time thing?
Born as a percentage "African American" gets you a partial reparation check, or do we just use a skin tone test?
Spaniards? Or just "Latinos" ... Cubans? What about your average run of the mill "mutt"?
Reparations is a foolish idea that would do far more damage to the relations of race than it would cure.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)What about the land we stole from the Native Americans.....what is the fair price for the land and the Ethnic Cleansing of the American West?
...and don't forget California and the Lower American States we took from Mexico....
How much for those?
Who should "pay up"?
Anyone with any "white" blood at all,
or only 100% European Caucasians?
As long as were on European Caucasians, why stop at 1492?
Texas Blues
(55 posts)The only FAIR way to alleviate the problem of white dominance is to experience what Bible-thumpers call "an eye for an eye." So let's go.
/ semi-sarcasm
First, understand that the basis all wealth in the United States was created through the auspices of slave and indentured servitude labor. That wealth went 100% to white owners, which compounded to its current ~200 TRILLION dollar amount. That's all from African labor. Therefore, transfer all monies from whites to African Americans AS A START.
Next, enforce a law that makes whites the slaves of African Americans. How long? Since slavery lasted ~350 years, that's how long whites should be enslaved. No voting rights, No marital rights. Children broken up and shipped to other African Americans, to be bred for slave labor once they grow up. Strip voting rights. Strip all rights period.
After the 350-year time period, start to reintegrate whites with African Americans once again, but do it in such a way that it doesn't "upset the balance." Maintain segregated towns from the white "redneck" areas. Establish a "reverse Jim Crow" environment, so to speak.
Finally, at the end of this period that lasts for 150 years, then we can start to talk about eliminating the white dominant culture. Not before. Ludicrous? Not at all...it's a very direct, one-for-one retribution for past injustices, and the current justification for enforcing White Privilege Acknowledgement.
Until then, whites must ALWAYS check their privilege. Whites must ALWAYS acknowledge their advantage over African American through societal acceptance. Whites must ALWAYS know that they, by their very presence, are committing micro-aggressions agaist all African Americans, as well as non-white individuals.
This is the answer we must give to anyone questioning the existence of white privilege, and that is why it can never be alleviated and must be loudly and publicly brought forth with full zest.
/ semi-sarcasm
OK, obviously a lot of this is over the top. THIS IS INTENDED, though, as it DOES give a standard in which to assess quantified transfers of both wealth and status.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)#1) Indentured Servants were mostly poor European White.
How do we identify whose great, great, great, Grandparents were Indentured Servants...and since they were mostly European White should they get the full amount as descendants of slaves?
2)I disagree that ALL wealth in the US was the product of Slave Labor.
Not everybody owned slaves or indentured servants...that was a privilege of the 1% in colonial days.
Believe it or not, some Europeans simply busted their ass homesteading without slaves, and lived by the sweat of their brow.... the vast majority did it this way.
Should these people be forced to pay the full amount in reparations, or just a punishment tax for being white European.
3) Should the Buffalo Soldiers (Free Black Men who joined the Union Army to "fight Indians" who participated in the Ethnic Cleansing of the West be forced to pay reparations to the Native Americans?
How much?
How do we find the descendants?
4)Should the Egyptians pay reparations to the Jews for their enslavement?
5)I'm Potato Famine Irish. My family where dirt poor, never owned slaves or servants, and busted ass (and died) building the railroads for near nothing, and were discriminated against in housing and ethnicity in those days. That wasn't fair to my great grandfather and great Uncles.
How much do the Railroads owe us?
padfun
(1,794 posts)My Swedish, Cherokee, or Spanish? I get confused with these reparations from the past.
Also, My Egyptian wants reparations from anyone who has Hittite in them. And of course our Semites want reparations from... Oh never mind!
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)You mean to say we need to keep our mouths shut unless we are speaking about race in the manner we are told to speak about it? To me that is not honest discussion. And saying whites need to just shut up and listen is not discussion at all.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Reverse everything and white folks would simply demand it.
period
Reparations would have been paid a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Even the people who are 3/4 slaveholder descendants and the people who got off the plane from Nigeria yesterday?
Should every white person be paying the reparations?
Even the people who are 100% Union soldier descendants and the people who got off the plane from Australia yesterday?
Do poor whites need to pay money to rich blacks?
Do Native Americans, Hispanics, and Asians get the money, or do they pay the money?
How big is this check going to be? Would giving every black person in the country $50,000 pay for 500 years of slavery and oppression, or does it need to be much, much bigger?
And once the reparations are paid, does this solve racism in the US, or would it just make the situation worse?
All this is so confusing to me.
randys1
(16,286 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)S/he is an African immigrant.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,041 posts)Has that person not suffered from institutional racism on the global level?
Why does it matter when ....
Certainly the effects of racism extend past the border of the of the US. Why does the person have to travel to the US to be deserving of reparations for the sins of colonization of the continent of Africa.
If an African American is deserving an actual resident of Africa is more deserving, are they not?
Where does it end? And who is paying for that?
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Not colonialism. Reparations for that would bankrupt the UK!
Lurker Deluxe
(1,041 posts)The damage was just to those who ended up in the US, not to the place where they were torn from their families.
It is all just the US, the youngest country in the discussion. After all ... Europe should not have to pay for the sins of where their people traveled to and committed the atrocities of which we speak. Or should native Americans be the only responsible party? Kinda think they got fucked a few centuries earlier.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and then the US had decades and decades of policies that caused and contributed to further oppression and lack of wealth for African Americans.
It's because the US made so much money off the work enslaved people did and weren't paid for.
The fact that we can't solve the world's problems doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about the US's problems.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)How much will be enough? Since you're so sold on the idea of reparations, I'd like to hear your specifics, and what the tipping point is...how much money will be needed to make things right?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Sounds good, but in practice, it would never work. And there could and probably would still be racism afterward.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)What you mean "we"?
Do different shades of blacks discriminate against each other? in the past and now?
How about Asians? I hear N Koreans who refugee south are horribly discriminated against. No color differences involved.
Since 1492???
Try to remember the world is not the USA.
Jesus, what a stupid notion!
Demobrat
(9,074 posts)that ANY mention of race automatically brands one as a racist. If I notice that the person sitting next to me on the bus is black (I'm white), that means I'm a racist. If I mention that my new neighbors are black (they are), that means I'm a racist. If I notice that the guys waiting for work at Home Depot are Latino, that means I'm a racist. And on and on. ANY acknowledgment that everybody isn't the same is racist. And that is why some white people don't want to talk about it. The discussion automatically devolves into finger-pointing and holier-than-thou posturing, so why bother?
randys1
(16,286 posts)God dammit, answers like this just make my blood boil
Demobrat
(9,074 posts)No point in further discussion, for all the reasons mentioned above.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Demobrat
(9,074 posts)so mine must not be legitimate. And so it goes.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)What did you do?
randys1
(16,286 posts)Facility Inspector
(615 posts)I've had to learn a tremendous amount of restraint.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)We are not brought up to discuss honestly our feelings.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I think it's worth talking about & worth reading about & worth listening.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)but it is an "eggshells" conversation.
I am the one with privileges that I did not earn and its a conversation where I truly don't know what it's like on the other side. so it is a conversation of listening where whenever I feel comfortable, I try to offer solutions or ideas.
if I'm meet with opposition then I learn a little more. easy as that.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)1) I don't give a damn what my ancestors did or didn't do. I don't believe in the whole sins of the father passing on to the following generations crap. Most of these discussions go into historical wrongs that modern white people should somehow feel guilty for or atone for. Waste of time going there as I'm not buying that argument.
2) The effort to redefine racist thinking and behavior as applying to whites which is B.S. So, the "discussion" is now only about how white people are racist, everyone else is off the hook no matter their racist thoughts/actions. Again, waste of time as I'm not buying it.
3) People quick to accuse anyone who isn't in the echo chamber as a racist. So, no discussion just repeating what others want to hear or are comfortable hearing. Waste of time.
840high
(17,196 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Race issues are here to stay for awhile. We, as a species, are still wary of the tribe over the hill. I wish we were better than that...
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)it's simple. Most people in the U.S. are woefully undereducated when it comes to the true history of this nation. Many are educated but taught by someone who has a bias, this causes a false since of security when it comes to facts. As a matter of fact, this causes a person to have a conversation dealing with assumption instead of facts. You can't have a real conversation in this manner. We in this nation need to come to grips with our history. We need to talk about how Europeans have committed genocide against Native Americans, African Americans and Latinos, and we need to tell the truth about the fact that this action is still taking place today. If we could get the truth into the minds of the human beings that live in this nation, it would be easy to not only talk about racism, but I truly believe we could actually sit down and begin coming up with solutions to many of the problems that plague this nation because of racism.
Division is the main game of the wealthy and those that would dominate society, they have used it for centuries and will continue to use it until those people that are being bamboozled come together and learn the true cause for our being so divided and the true reason as to why we cannot or will not truthfully discuss racism.
Throd
(7,208 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)You never disappoint.
Response to Throd (Reply #128)
randys1 This message was self-deleted by its author.
randys1
(16,286 posts)who think like you do.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)You couldn't make the point any better if you tried.
randys1
(16,286 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)to listen to white folk sometime.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Full of white privilege, discomforted by the tiniest hint at their privilege, etc.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and I don't think the white people are all that uncomfortable - at least those on DU.
The real racists in my life found a new group to hate - one that they think it is OK to hate because of 911 - Muslims. Lots of ginned up outrage and claims that Muslim Immigrants want sharia law here - as if they could ever get that. It's like a big relief to them. They think they can't be called on it because 911.
I'm blocked in AA for giving an honest answer to an honest question. I had another post hidden by a jury as racist. The post was about the relationship between crime and age demographics.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Because I had one alerted for pointing to ARJIS... I suspect most people do not know what that stands for
http://www.arjis.org/SitePages/Home.aspx
I find it invaluable for looking at the data and drilling into it. ARJIS can get really detailed with some PDs. Not so much with others.
Gad, that also tells me that what we ran today on the prison system... it's best if that stays off DU.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the XML files are best, and a print out...
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)appear to be racist. I would ask them why they through that ignorant word in there.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)I just don't want to talk about it to the exclusion of everything else.
There's sp much more to talk about.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Better to keep your mouth shut. But then again silence may imply consent or worse complicity.
[img][/img]
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)because if every single question about inequality is answered with, "Because white people are terrible," there's not really much to discuss, is there?
Here's an example:
"Why do only about 1/4 of black males in NYC graduate from high school on time?"
"Because white people are terrible."
Here's another example:
"Why are black people 8 times more likely to be homicide victims than white people are?"
"Because white people are terrible."
Here's a final example:
"Why are black people 8 times more likely to get HIV than white people are?"
"Because white people are terrible."
If anyone has any answers to any of these questions that don't reduce down to "Because white people are terrible," please do share.
(And to clarify, I believe that white people are PART of the problem in each of these situations, but it seems like the expectation is that white people will recognize their own culpability, become enlightened, and these problems will disappear. That's not how reality works.)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)How does it work?
IOWs, How can I, as a Black person, fix the institutional and individual racism that I experience.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)There are black females and people of other races going to the same schools with better success.
That says to me that part of the issue is with the black males themselves.
Maybe they don't feel invested in the system, they don't feel like what they're learning applies to their lives, they didn't get a good grounding in the basics, they don't see formal education leading to a good career, they don't think the teachers get where they're coming from, they think the odds are stacked against them, they're too distracted by tough living situations, they're too distracted by girls, they're too distracted by their stupid friends (everyone has stupid friends, amirite?), they miss school due to suspensions and can't catch up, they're too proud to ask for help, they're suffering from clinical depression, ALL OF THE ABOVE, none of the above...?
Each one of these theories could lead to a variety of solutions that aren't about finger-pointing or victim-blaming, but if the only answer is "Because white people are terrible," where does that lead?
If all of the above problems are factors, you could send a black boy to the best school in the country and he'd still be a dropout risk.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)all except "being distracted by girls" is a direct result of institutionalized/systemic racism. No?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)they don't feel like what they're learning applies to their lives
they don't think the teachers get where they're coming from
Alienation is a matter of perception. Most teenagers feel alienated to some extent, but this seems to be severe among young black males and IMHO there aren't a lot of factors pushing them back towards a sense of ownership in their own educations. It may be a justified reaction to living in a white-dominated society, but these easily become self-fulfilling prophecies.
they didn't get a good grounding in the basics
This is a combination of indirect racism and about eight other factors feeding into each other.
they don't see formal education leading to a good career
Again, this is mostly perception with a smattering of truth. If you tell yourself that white society is a sucker's game, then you'll live in a way that reflects that.
they think the odds are stacked against them
Absolutely true, unfortunately.
they're too distracted by tough living situations
Indirect result of racism and living around other people with a cynical attitude towards white society.
they're too distracted by girls
Universal to young men.
they're too distracted by their stupid friends
This seems socioeconomic more than racial. Getting into trouble with rich stupid friends doesn't have long-term consequences, but getting into trouble with poor stupid friends does.
they miss school due to suspensions and can't catch up
Combination of indirect racism and anger issues that in turn tier off of indirect racism.
they're too proud to ask for help
This is a whole other thread.
they're suffering from clinical depression
Valid reaction to living in a racist system and seeing friends suffer, but there's also some agency that comes into play here.
It's a fictional example, but I keep thinking about the beginning of "Straight Outta Compton" where Ice Cube is being bussed to a rich white school. Did the resources there help him to succeed, or did it just sharpen his anger at a system that he perceived as being stacked against him? Or some combination of both? Would he have been better off just staying in Compton?
Even if you treat a black kid exactly equally in the school system, there are factors at play that cannot be controlled for. The reaction of the individual kid to the system is number one.
randys1
(16,286 posts)continuing to THIS VERY DAY and all Black people arent model citizens, with no problems dealing with being on the receiving end of ENDLESS, DAILY, racism and oppression.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)...I think the expectation goes beyond simply recognizing internalized racism.
The ultimate problem is that either whites can't understand that it goes beyond that or that minorities fail to express objective or clear approaches to move beyond that. It's not an either/or situation. The problems must be solved by a genuine dialog and policy approach involving all parties.
Redlining (as a basic example of this) still exists because the government has simply, and abysmally failed to even approach the issue. It can be done, but it's fucking hard. And let's be fair, hard is not something government excels at.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Just curious.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)The sad thing is, it's just as true now as it was 22 years ago.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I thought it might have been to compare attitudes then vs. now.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Is this guy saying we are being dishonest if we think we aren't racists?
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)No matter how much you believe in equality, no matter how good of an ally you try to be, you're always just one pissed-off PoC away from being just another Cracker McWhitey with his boot on their neck. There's no defense, because then you're white-splaining.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Hold on, let me think, where did I see it last...
randys1
(16,286 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Even -- maybe especially -- white liberals can get very touchy about the subject.
randys1
(16,286 posts)MANY white folks, including liberals.
Some liberals, anyway.
I mean we cant even agree on the basics, yet, it seems.
I am so sick of it.
It is EMBARRASSING to me as a white person
I have to add the word many, because if I dont I will be silenced, but surely by using the word many and not all, i cant be, right?
we will see
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)Skittles
(153,428 posts)around here, stereotyping is a no-no unless the subject is white folk or cops
randys1
(16,286 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Doesn't matter what is said if it doesn't fit the narrative it is something to be pounced on and mocked.
No one is interested in that conversation. No matter the topic.
It is a constant pattern and one you can't seem to resists even in a discussion of why people don't want to discuss it here.
My feeling is discussing it here is a complete waste of time as there is no room for honesty on the subject only an interest in feeling self righteous or scoring points.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Congrats on yet another shining example of why race is not worth discussing here. You are knocking it out of the park.
The saddest thing is you aren't even a POC.
randys1
(16,286 posts)betsuni
(25,887 posts)A quote: "it is SICKENING, people who fail to understand NO ONE LIKES TO BE STEREOTYPED." The poor oppressed white peoples. To be accused of excessive mayonnaise consumption or whatever. SICKENING.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Plenty of white people seem eager to broadcast their views on race far and wide this year, in my observations.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Just sit back a listen to lectures.
Lectures are not discussions.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)White defensiveness isn't a discussion either.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)It's talking and exchanging ideas, not just sitting back and listening only.
Both parties need to listen and both parties need to talk. Saying "white people need to do more listening and less talking" is not a discussion and your attitude is why people don't engage. It's not defensiveness, it's a discussion. That means both parties may hear things they don't want to hear.
Thanks for providing an example of why this discussion doens't happen here.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Attitudes like the ones on display in this thread is why I recommend listening more. I'm not hearing anything unique in the discussion from other white people in this thread. I am white, and I perceive anger, fear, and defensiveness, not discussion. My observations are just as valid as anyone else's.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Exactly my point, that's a discussion.
How interested would you be in participating if I told you "you had to listen to me more than post"? Maybe you only got to reply to every one of my 3 posts to you? Probably not very interested.
Hence my point. Telling someone they have to listen more than the other person is not a discussion nor would anyone be interested in participating in such a scenario.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)is to listen. I don't feel I need to have something to say first about every topic, especially when the subject under discussion is from the perspective outside my own lived experiences.
You'll note I made a general ask to the OP and the thread, I didn't "tell" anyone directly anything. It's a suggestion to everyone that listening more than talking at people who are often marginalized in the US, who have experienced things that you haven't is more valuable in several circumstances.
Anyone has the choice to participate in a discussion in any way they see fit, but they don't also get a choice in how people might react to that kind of participation.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Except in your first post you said "White people should do more listening than talking"
So you are contradicting yourself if a white person can't participate in the "discussion" anyway they see fit.
Basically, if you really are interested in a true discussion, then both parties should feel free to talk and both parties should listen as much as they want.
The OP was about why white people don't want to participate in racial discussions and your original post is one reason why.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Because that would actually be something killing people, instead of something that white liberals like to just chortle over.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)in this particular OP -- which invites discussion of the proposition that white people are reluctant to discuss race issues. It's totally lost on you, I'm sure, but it's perfect nonetheless.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)If anyone feels reluctant because they have offended Black people in the past, from not listening, than I feel some progress has been made. If that person has been blocked by two different groups involving progressive social issues, than even better. I'd say the irony, in that case, was lost on them.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)What makes you think the groups that blocked me, apart from you and your group, were "progressive social issues" groups? Just guessing, are you? Just filling in gaps in knowledge with whatever pops into your head?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)HOF and AA. Sorry if you think that level of research is rocket science.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)What informed you of the other, unnamed group? Just making wild guesses?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Anyway, it's been a real pleasure and very entertaining to run across you again. Keep up the good fight. It's us against them...or you all against us..or maybe it's you against them. I don't know. Semper Fi.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7152355
"cheapdate (2,329 posts)
276. I'm white, I'll talk about it.
But not in the African American group where they blocked me. I'm a man and I'll talk about feminism, but not in the History of Feminism group where they blocked me."
I'm glad you were entertained. It's always good to encounter someone who finds themselves to be their own best source of fun!
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)For the reason I gave at the outset -- which was and is the irony of your particular line of comments in this particular OP.
The mistake I made in the counting of groups is not worth going into. We've covered that.
If you have to always have the last word in every discussion, and it does appear that you do, are you capable of ending a conversation with even a shred of graciousness?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Pro-tip: don't click on the link that says "reply" on my posts if you want to end a conversation *you* started. Voila, conversation ends.
Problem solved.
No, you forgot what you posted about where you'd been blocked and now you're trying to walk it back. If you are entertained by that, well, at least you live up to your screen name.
If your feelings will be healed by getting the last word in this exchange that *you* initiated, then, by all means...I'll let you get in a last squib.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)I mean, what's refreshing isn't the pettiness, it's the joyful and open embracing of pettiness -- really owning the pettiness -- that's so refreshing. You don't always get to see that.
Just to see that 8th/9th grade kind of "king-of-the-hill"...'this my post! I started the post!'...pettiness brings back memories. (I called shotgun!)
Thank you!
(edit: you might not get the 'shotgun' reference. It might just be a Mobile thing, I don't know. I can explain it if you want.)
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)nt
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)One can not be held accountable for not eliminating a problem if ones input is dismissed out of hand.
So I'll find other things to do while you listen to those whos opinions, thoughts and concerns are deemed valid and someone can just let me know when things are all better. M'kay?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Indeed.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)As a fellow white woman, and a human being, I feel care for Black people on DU getting their voices silenced. White feelings are not my priority, at all. So, if you need to be in your feelings about this some more, find someone upthread who is more to your taste. You aren't getting what you want out of this.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)so you can stop white splaining black people to me. In fact I'd appreciate it if you would put me on ignore.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)You replied to me first. I wanted nothing out of you, and still do not. Thanks.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Please, your schtick is played out. Go take your petulant feelings back to the Lounge.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)you poor thang
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)You need to report for your own remedy. Much overdue.
Skittles
(153,428 posts)DISCUSSION of race issues HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN here on a DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE BOARD
there is PLENTY OF DISCUSSION regarding race issues going on, but NOT *HERE*
PLENTY of blame to go around for THAT, and it is SICKENING
*OVER AND OUT*
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Toodles!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and feel free to have the last word. There is no discussion of serious issues here anymore.
You will anyway. So why stop now.
In the meantime, I think this is a nice smoke picture...
Ooops water drop, Don't want you going there... really, might find something serious.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)None of them have involved you.
Number23
(24,544 posts)that some of these folks are allegedly having away from DU??
I don't know know what's funnier. People screaming about "BEinG UNaBLE TO HAVe RACE DIscusSSIONS!1!" within a three hundred post thread on race or the fact that the ones who keep trying to shut you up are to a one, people who either don't post in minority forums or have been asked in no uncertain terms to STOP posting in said minority forums????
Response to Number23 (Reply #336)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
Number23
(24,544 posts)illustrate the very behavior that got you blocked from the AA forum. Well done. I saw you upthread once again telling your faux truth about why you got kicked out -- it was for "defending yourself" and not for your obnoxious and unwanted and repeated intrusion even after you were asked to leave THREE TIMES. There may be some that truly want to believe that getting blocked from the African American group on a Democratic web site is some badge of honor, but no one with a shred of intelligence or dignity would ever honestly feel that way.
If you don't cut this crap out, I will report you to the admins. And I am truly serious about this. Your behavior is unhinged and despicable. It doesn't surprise me in the least that you don't understand that but you need to.
Response to Number23 (Reply #339)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
betsuni
(25,887 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Up until the last two months, we only had about 7 people banned from the AA forum in the almost three years that this forum has been around. So it is just precious and adorable to see all of these recent additions to the ban list suddenly "wailing" about how they can't discuss race now on DU!
Everybody was so happy and things were so grand until those uppity Negroes (or even worse, clued in WHITE PEOPLE like Starry!! ) starting banning people who contribute nothing to race discussions or are openly hostile to black people!! It's just terrible and sooooo unfair!1!!1one
betsuni
(25,887 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)If this is just a taste, I hate to imagine what the main course would be.
I'm kind of amazed my one mild comment about listening to Black people spawned an hours long freak out of CENSORSHIP111!!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'd pay cash money to experience one of these discussions. I suspect these discussions are rarely inter-racial, and in the event there are, I would wager the Black people walk away thinking, "Why the F' did I do that?"
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Let us tell you what is best and when to talk about it!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)they real life race discussers, walk away with the same self-satisfied feeling.
Note to real life race discussers: That look you're receiving is not to be confused with agreement and they are laughing AT you, not with you.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)they real life race discussers, walk away with the same self-satisfied feeling.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)There is nothing about "no talking and only listening" let along about a lecture. Both people talk some and both listen some, but historically, white people have done the majority of the talking. It's time to lean back and let the voices of people of color be heard more.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)A simple concept, yet...
treestar
(82,383 posts)you may have black people feeling like they are being dominated in the discussion. We may unconsciously do most of the talking not realizing we would listen more in a conversation with other white people.
It's just something to look for. Are we really listening? When we "get" the white privilege thing without being resentful like the right wingers, we are, but do we on some level think we are still in charge?
IMO the best person to deal with this subject is President Obama. He does a great job whenever he gets near it.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)rather than shutting down discussions that don't include you, while condescendingly making threats of banishment in the AA group.
It has been my experience that Black DUers are perfectly capable of engaging in an exchange of ideas without you running interference for them; unless, of course, you think they are NOT capable, in which case you have no business hosting the AA group.
If you are wondering why DUers are increasingly hesitant to discuss issues of race and racism, I suggest you take a long, hard look in the mirror.
TYY
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)The SOP is pinned at the top of the group. You can explain what you think is the AA group's business to the other hosts, if you feel the need.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Good for you!
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)There was a sudden uptick of "interest" in the group this year. Due to many Black DUers being suspended from hidden posts, a lot of the AA hosts got kicked off the roster. Many other Black posters are on an enforced time-out, unfortunately.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)The poster in question has already been blocked from the AA group. One can only imagine why.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)TYY
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)Afterall its about white people not talking about race easily and black people doing so more freely.
Were white people not supposed to talk about why that might be reluctant to talk about race issues?
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)If you're white you're supposed to just shut up and accept everything that PoC's tell you without argument, up to and including the fact (indisputable!) that you are a horrible nazi and personally responsible for everything wrong in the world. Also, wear this hair-shirt and beat yourself with nettles.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)They got an echo chamber. I do hope they enjoy it. Heck, some breaking news from an American city that happened today referring to something that happened in the Spring...ain't gonna talk about it here and any threads started, well nothing really happened that I should pay attention to here on DU.
I guarantee though a story on it though...just not here. They want an echo chamber, they got it.
libodem
(19,288 posts)When I was about 5. Yes. Everything I leared about race relations I learned in Kindergarten. We are all the same on the inside. Humans come in different colored wrappers but we love the same, hurt the same, feel the same, and are the same. And that was my belief foundation. I have room for improvement and learning of course and I'm open for more information.
I can't imagine being poisoned mentally by bigots. I salute the friends I know who were raised by Republican bigot parents and re-educated themselves to be liberal and egalitarian.
I can't imagine trying to redo my early training. It's deep set.
Township75
(3,535 posts)The others white people don't matter anyway.
Who does that leave for Us dems
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Do you mind rephrasing?
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)never had trouble talking about race. One of the first things I learned about racism was when my father sat his children down (I was five) and explained to us that the only difference between us and black people was our skin color and how the races were treated. We were forbidden to ever use the n word. We were told that the black woman hired to help my mother, pregnant with her fifth child, was not our slave or servant or a chariy case - she was an employee and a friend.
My parents and grandparents never demonstratd racism and that was pretty amazing for the time and place - the place being the south. We had black kids playing with us as far back as I can remember and we certainly discussed racism with them.
I could go on and on but it's hard to type with one hand.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)that would be?
tech3149
(4,452 posts)Unfortunately, when I do I feel like I'm talking to a stone wall. Most of similar background seem to have blinders that I can't seem to penetrate. It may be that I have lived and worked in poor communities and have some direct exposure to what life is like, or it might be that admitting the privilege of whiteness might make them think less of themselves.
Either way, until we deal with this shit we will never be whole.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I know I am not an expert on race, so I tend to listen more than talk. I will listen when black people want to talk about it and ask questions. To me, that is the best way to learn.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But the clear point is that those wanting honest discussion, have no desire to learn ... they want to be heard, and have no interest in extending that courtesy to their "discussion partner."
I would think/hope that if someone keeps telling me that I need to listen more and talk less ... wouldn't I, as a self-aware and/or person seeking an honest discussion, pause to ask myself, "Why doesn't my 'discussion partner' feel unheard?"
And that would go doubly so, if the topic of discussion is something I have only vicarious experience with?
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)About race issues.
I see the pattern of what you want. Do you?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Talk of reparations has come and gone and come again and gone again.
It might work, short term. Let me explain. This is not just economic. Moreover, reparations would be hard to do since most of the population came to the United Staes after the civil war. And most suffered at the near bottom of the economic ladder as well. It would in my opinion deepen the crisis, and create a whole new set of resentment.
That does not mean the system is not fucked up ok.
That does not mean we do not have a system of white supremacy that is at the heart of the problems.
This said, Americans have to understand and admit the role of slavery as the poisoned pill. There have been suggestions over the years, especially after the Truth and Reconciliation commission in SA, that this would be a better route. We are a few generations removed from actual slavery, but there are people still around who engaged in the Jim Crow system. And the country should be forced to watch it, otherwise none will learn jack or shit.
And then there are the people of brown skin. Mexican Americans have had a similar role at the bottom of society as a permanent underclass in the South West Let's not even start with Native Americans.
The heart of the issue is white supremacy. Extirpating this little cancer will not be easy... but if the country is finally going to move on, it has to happen. How it will happen, it has to start with things like spending equally in suburban and urban schools, and it's not just money either.. and with that, I got some reading to do I think
Number23
(24,544 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)In terms of caucasians talking about race?
Number23
(24,544 posts)Alot less people making it all about them and their hurt feelings instead of the issue at hand.
My husband is white and my children are bi-racial. We have been married for years and yet never in a million years do I think that he would compare his experience as a white man married to a black woman to be even in the same stratosphere as my experiences as a black woman or even the same as our mixed race children. And as our kids get older, I imagine that any chance of him comparing their experiences to his would only get smaller.
And for what it's worth, I just want to thank you for asking. As far as I can tell, you are the only person that asked a single poc in this thread that question.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The reason people keep saying "More listening, less talking" is because one half of the supposed honest discussion is not being/does not feel heard.
But as I mentioned up-thread ... it is clear that those resisting the "more listening, less talking" plea, have (near) zero interest in hearing, they only wish to be heard.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)I can see why you and 23 like the above DUer's post because it contained no expression of his or her own view. Is that what you want? Just requests for what you want? Is that what you want from a conversation?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)In a discussion of racism in America, do you think your life's experience with it, compares to that of any Black/Hispanic person? If so, how so?
I think too many people want to claim the weight of authority on applied physics because they have read a comic book and/or watched an episode of Big Bang Theory.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)I do not think my life experiences as a white person are comparable (in the sense of equivalent or identical) to those of black person.
But if you're asking do I think there are some comparisons (in the sense of similarities in my life and my family that address issues of discrimination), then the answer is yes.
In a discussion of racism in America, do you think your life's experience with it, compares to that of any White person? If so, how so?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)And you implied that you would answer my questions in post 285 if I answered yours first. I eagerly await.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027149966#post285
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I have pointed out that I am an immigrant and a Jew, and Latina, and some of our AA members have discounted my experience, because I could never be profiled, (I have), or discriminated against (I have).
I just read this exchange and had a moment of ridiculous irony hitting me on the side of the head. Granted, I do not need to fear being stopped by cops for driving while black... but dang, the irony. They want an echo chamber, let's give them one.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I do not claim not an ability of understanding the expressions of a white persons' experience regarding racism ... other than to point out that that contrary pedestrian experience is in no way equivalent to that of Black lives lived.
There is a difference between saying "well, Mr. white man ... that might be your experience with racism; but, that is not my experience with it (as a primary victim of it), and "well, Mr. Black man ... that might be your experience with racism; but, that is not my experience with it (as a vicarious observer)."
There is a difference between taking what Black people tell you about their/our experience with racism (as one being assaulted by it) and applying that testimony to your life as a white person, e.g., "Okay. I hear you saying, you feel dismissed/not listened to when people argue the same argument in response to what you just explained. (Remembering your most recent discussion of climate change with a climate-change denier) I know how that feels. I will try not to do that again." ... and attempting to apply your experience with racism, as an observer (regardless of how close you are to the actual victim), e.g., "I was brought up poor and have been treated unfairly because of my poverty. That's just like facing racism. So I understand the effects of racism" ... its the difference between empathy and self-interested, false equivalency born of privilege.
I would hope that people would attempt to use discussions of racism as a learning experience, with a recognition that all opinions are not created equal.
What I want is for white participants in such discussion to stop attempting to educate the learned and take advantage of a opportunity to grow.
Do you expect Stephen Hawking to entertain your sophomoric understanding of physics, as equivalent, or even relevant; or, Krugman, your understanding of economics? Why would you expect differently of Black people?
I liked that DUer's post because it contained an admission of ignorance and a desire to remove that deficit. To me, that is an admirable characteristic.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)superiority complex, inferiority complex, just plain old swaggering arrogance in your writing takes me aback.
Note that I am not personally calling you any of this or any names. The expression in your writing is what I am talking about.
It's tricky to characterize, but it is definitely offputting.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)In all my years of writing arguments, both during my educational years and in my professional life, I have never had such an assessment.
But I guess game recognizes game ... minus the "inferiority complex" part, of course. IOWs, your have mastered projection.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)..would expect them to engage in discussions with me and not expect only people equivalent to their knowledge of their disciplines to address them. I do not expect differently of Black people. I fully acknowledge that I cannot fully understand the Black experience, but surely we can discuss and exchange ideas.
I too would hope that people would attempt to use discussions of racism as a learning experience, with a recognition that all opinions are not created equal, but to realize that some are equal. Discussing, challenging, and synthesizing is how people learn among equals. I certainly hope you consider blacks and whites equal on this board even if we have different levels of knowledge about subjects. The idea of a one-way channel of information flow seems strange and contradictory from someone who claims to want to have discussions.
Of course there is a difference being a member of the group that is victimizes by racism and being a member of the group that perpetuates racisms. It seems trivial to point that out, so what exactly are you trying to show? I also don't understand why you anchor the second example to the phrase "vicarious observer" when the issue is white persons' actions in racist societies.
The following distinction is lost on me because both involve relating nonidentical experiences based on the attributes that are similar...
Yep, that's pretty much what I said.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)so does Neil Degrassee Tyson... It is great, Tyson even answers questions. He does not behave as if asking or speaking is not something people should do.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That is a very fair point.
Yes ... I do consider Blacks and whites equal on the board; however, I do not consider their/our OPINIONS, equal for just the reason you state ... we have different levels of knowledge. And, I would hold that opinions informed by lived experience carries more authority; than, opinions informed by observers ... self-interested observers, at that.
That's an interesting point. I haven't viewed this from the perspective of "the issue is white persons' actions in racist societies", as I assumed that everyone here avoids acting in a knowingly "racist" way. Discussions of race/racism are NOT an indictment of individual white people (other than those that do/speak racist stuff)
No ... that's nothing like what you said.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027140197
I watched and listened carefully and he said something along the line of what you just did.
He expressed something similar saying that, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, he didn't blame individual white people for their racism because they were like acting like players in a monopoly game (i.e., ruthlessly). He said the problem is the game and it is our responsibility to not play it (i.e., white privilege).
This seems strange to me. I mean when you posted your story last September of your local police pulling you over for no reason, but allowed a white driver to flagrantly break traffic laws, wasn't he to blame for his choices? You didn't say, "Of he's just a cop playing his role in a white supremacist society". He was to blame for his choices and he was responsible for doing better. At least, from my point of view.
And I also took from Johnson that all white people are acting in accord with white privilege on a daily basis without even knowing it in most cases. That we may be a self-aware at times and change our choices, but we can't be thinking of white privilege constantly, and therefore, act with white privilege. Obviously there are conscious and conspicuous racist acts, but that's not really what we're talking about in most cases.
And by the way, thank you for discussing this with me. MrScorpio kind of bailed on me.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I didn't blame anyone.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=8394
I am very careful NOT to blame individual whites for their actions, unless they say or do something that is racist ... and even then, I rarely call them "racist"; but rather, point out what they said/did was racist (there is a difference) ... and that is because, for me, it is assumed that people in authority, i.e., cops, are acting within a racist system.
I don't expect anyone, that does not recognize (make efforts to recognize) their privilege, to act to do better/not play his/her role within this racist system. On the other hand, as naively, wishful as it may be, I do expect folks claiming liberal to attempt to do better.
That is why it is so hurtful when they don't.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)I will admit some of the things you say I don't fully understand so I'll think about it.
Seems to me you canT hold anyone accountable for racist decisions and actions with assigning blame.
Thank you again.
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)Do you expect Stephen Hawking to entertain your sophomoric understanding of physics, as equivalent, or even relevant; or, Krugman, your understanding of economics?
If there was something in physics or economics they felt one needed to understand then Wouldnt they have to put up with one's level of knowledge on the subject ?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But for how long? How long would either engage someone of lesser knowledge asserting that their opinion holds equal weight?
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Why should it be up to you, or anyone, to judge who is a victim and who isn't? And isn't victimization a state of mind? And if you truly do feel victimized, isn't it on you to stand up and do something about it? One can't expect others to put forth more effort in remedying your victimization then you will put forth on your own behalf. If you just sit there and say "I've got a grievance and I'm putting the onus on you to make it right," you'd better have a very convincing argument as to why they should help, or that person is going to tell you to pound sand. If your argument is "you're a terrible person and you owe me" then you probably won't get very far.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)I've been spit on, called a wetback, spic, whatever,
Beat up for being a whatever Latino some people thought.
Today? Get to hear the comments/jabs/straight up racism whites and blacks seem boldly free to express about the generic "Mexican Other" (anyone with a Spanish surname is Mexican to them).
Do I consider myself a victim?
Fuck no.
I've taken as much privilege as I needed from wherever I could get it and never bowed down. I fight back when needed, help when needed, and always stand on my own two feet.
The victim ideology is distasteful to anyone who has any kind of moxie.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)nt
Number23
(24,544 posts)in this OP.
And your immediate pivot from "white people are uncomfortable talking about racism" to "I'm NOT a VICTIM!1" is easily the most head scratching thing I've seen in a long time.
The only "victim ideology" I see in this thread is the white people crying that they feel castigated and chastised if they don't agree with poc 100% which is utter bullshit. No one black in this thread is whining or crying victim so it is BEYOND fascinating that you are seeing that but not the 20+ people whining about having to actually see a discussion about racism. Very interesting indeed.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)I never said white people are uncomfortable about anything.
Don't read more into what I wrote.
Read the actual words that I wrote.
I speak only for myself.
Number23
(24,544 posts)race. And somehow we've gone from that to a whoooooooooole bunch of white people RUNNING to prove the point of this OP beyond all shadow of all doubt and now you chime in with your bit about minority "victimhood."
No one in this thread is talking about minorities claiming victimhood. No one... but you.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)yes?
Welcome to ignore!
Number23
(24,544 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Particularly in Western cultures?
And your knee jerk defensiveness is as hilarious at it completely unwarranted. But you got your tiny little "Amen" crew so I guess that means far more to you than actually making one tiny bit of sense.
If your argument is "you're a terrible person and you owe me" then you probably won't get very far.
Easily the most idiotic and ignorant comment I've ever seen on race issues here. Easily.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(me, in particular) is trying to stop her from discussing race because I called bullshit on her bulshit claim that someone called her a racist and/or a white supremacist ... when, even, a quick review of her links to the claim easily disproves that bullshit claim.
Number23
(24,544 posts)of minority posters on this board better than these people screaming reverse racism ( ), acting as though talking about minority rights is the same as minorities claiming "victimhood", calling posters a "pack of dogs," lying through their teeth, and saying ANYTHING in a thread about how too many white people will do and say ANYTHING rather than address racism.
And you and I both know that none of these people participating in this will feel anything even resembling shame for this sad little display.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it is not a bullshit claim, but hey, if you want to keep gnawing at that bone...
And you keep calling my experience bullshit. I will tell you this, revealing does not start to describe it.
What is also highly revealing is that you got your echo chamber and a significant story that broke today... is nowhere here on DU... like NOWHERE.
I find that interesting. Oh and that was posted ELSEWHERE, and we talked about it.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)What is your experience as a minority? Are you Mexican? Are you Jewish? and what do you look like? Are you mestizo?
The last point is relevant because HOW you look can result a great deal in your treatment. My ex-girlfriend, Jewish, Ashkenazi background, would tan very dark in the summertime, and we would get suspicious looks as we crossed the border back from Tijuana. She looked Mexican, but had no connection to Mexico.
People of color have radically different experiences based on their race, ethnicity, how they actually look, where they live, and when they are there. Though you declare yourself a PoC, I have no clarity as to what that racial heritage is. I doubt that you have any special insight into the lives of African-Americans through your own personal experience, because your life was probably quite different, as your race and ethnicity is different.
You may have developed a certain amount of insight through your career as a journalist, but I certainly am not seeing the lived experience. Show me how I am wrong.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and am aware, but not according to some folks. And I will leave it at that
kwassa
(23,340 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and how aware or not I am of these issues no longer matters. As far as this place is concerned I am avoiding the whole subject matter.
Is that understood? I will continue to deal with the subject matter in person... with friends, and in the local streets. (And at times actually the policy level)
DU is not a place many of us, it is not just me, want to even touch this with a two foot pool, let alone a 10 foot pole, or the other side of the moon. Enjoy the damn echo chamber.
betsuni
(25,887 posts)raven mad
(4,940 posts)When dealing with issues of race (whether Black, Alaska Native, Hispanic, Filipino, et al) we are fortunate in the larger towns of Alaska to have a very diverse population; I have always found it more instructional to listen rather than talk.
I was luckily raised, although in the South, by parents who firmly believed in equality for all races, as well as religions and sexual preference. Ats I am 61, you can imagine how appreciative that is! There are many issues of race that I have never had to deal with, but by listening to those who have, can occasionally come up with good ideas to share.
Bookmarked, and this is a kick!
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)But not in the African American group where they blocked me. I'm a man and I'll talk about feminism, but not in the History of Feminism group where they blocked me.
But I digress. This is General Discussion.
I'm a white man from a liberal household in the Deep South. I came through the Mobile, Alabama public school system in the 1970s. My class was one of the earliest integrated classes in Mobile. I've seen racism from almost every possible angle.
I've seen it from the inside, when white people feel free to share their true feelings. I was in the home of a white high school principle, downstairs after dinner, when it was just the men. The high school principle felt comfortable to share his feelings about black people. I'm not much shocked by anything anymore, but the ugliness and intensity of his racism was shocking. By the way, this wasn't the 1970's, this was the 2000s in Middle Tennessee.
Racism is alive and well. It didn't die after 1964. It just went underground a little.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)article as well as the links comments which by the way for those honestly wanting more opinions is definitely worth taking the time to read.....
Though the article linked is fairly old it still rings somewhat true today which as many stated is pretty sad that we have evolved so little, but IMO I do believe racism is discussed more openly than 20 years ago by at least the majority of Americans....
I try more often that not to listen first the share my own thoughts, discussion is good but being able to listen is key for a noteworthy discussion to follow....
I've always been taught at home that we were all the same inside even if we appeared different on the outside, but outside the home I learned not everyone felt the same...
I watch DUrs sometimes get into these war of word matches that seemingly emit anger instead of an attempt to find common ground and it kind of saddens me.....
I realize I cannot fully understand POCs experiences nor can I fully understand men's issues, the GLBT communities issues, as well as others and the most honest reason for that lack of understanding of so many others every day lives is because I am not them, I have not walked in their shoes so it's impossible..
But I try...I think many DUrs try,
That's all any of us can do,
I'm no longer young and no longer have the faith in many I once had and I mourn that loss I know I'll never get back...regardless of race, creed, sex etc....it matters little to me what you look like nor what you wear or any of those superficial reasons why most people gravitate towards another....
there are good people in this world and far far too many not so good, I treat people the way I wish to be treated, if I'm not afforded the same I cannot help but, well, just move on....
Respect given is Respect returned....
No one ever said life would be perfect, but we can help to make it bearable at least for each other if possible...
elleng
(131,601 posts)think it's ok to talk about differences in cultures we've noticed. Takes living close together, and becoming friends, to acknowledge this.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)as I said, serious shit on this no longer... but ...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)they got it.
We got real issues to deal with, and DU will solve nada...in fact I expect DU to continue to go the way it is. Warring "camps" and lack of self reflection. It is what it is. And no I will not forget. Forgive I have, but not forget.
JustAnotherGen
(32,114 posts)The discussions black folks have in black spaces - off of DU.
I would worry a lot less about any DU "echo chambers" and a lot more about the 40 and older crowd who have discussions at Sunday dinner, are influencing our younger family members, and feeding them the radio station WII FM.
I'm guilty as charged. I look down my nose at my country every chance I get . . . When in face to face black spaces.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but that is where change will come. And it is not worthy of discussion at DU.
The other place is where policy happens, legal offices, school rooms, and the streets.
Freelancer
(2,107 posts)I'm one of those Midwestern liberals that spent decades arguing with redneck relatives about race -- standing up for blacks in the face of some real awfulness -- walking out of more than one family get-together, and probably getting disinherited in the process. The last thing I want is to get into any more futile arguments -- especially on the internet with whatever passes for the diametric opposite of a redneck. Unfortunately, it's impossible to converse about race on DU without that happening. DU has shown me that my 'club' doesn't exist.
I used to laugh when comics made repeated jokes about "stupid white people" when, evidently, I am one of the stupidest of them all -- for thinking of myself as being part of some sort of post-racial solidarity. I see now that there is no being post-racial when it's only white people in the club. You need black members, and right now there are not enough joiners.
I'm sure the immediate retort to this will be along the lines of "how could I ever consider myself post-racial?" In answer, all I can say is that I don't know how anyone overcomes anything -- especially being defined by something as overwhelming as racism. By faith? By will? By decision? By exhaustion? I do know that there are a lot of us white folk who thought we were post racial... who are wanting to be post-racial WITH you, but evidently the impetus for that has to originate with POC. Otherwise, it's just another blanco idea.
We'll be out here waiting.
Response to KamaAina (Original post)
SouthernProgressive This message was self-deleted by its author.
Marr
(20,317 posts)who are crying about whites not discussing race issues also jump all over the few who do for not simply nodding in agreement with every single thing they say.
But maybe that's just a DU thing. This particular forum has a way of enabling attention seekers and thought bullies.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I have not encountered those issues at other places.
Either it is the face to face over coffee has other rules. Or talking to people on Facebook you walk with in the streets.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)apnu
(8,765 posts)... white people don't think of themselves as white.
Here are my observations:
As I go about the white world, whites I know don't talk about being white or racially identifying as white. Granted I live in the North so the racism I see every day is a very different animal from what happens down South. Whites I know identify racially by whatever ancestry they are, or if they are mixed, which ancestry they like best. Nobody I know says "Hey I'm white" they say "I'm Italian" or "I'm Irish" or "I'm German"
(full disclosure, I'm very european mixed. According to family genealogy, I have a bit of everything in Europe in me, I am text book generic white, as such I don't have a European ancestry I can call "mine" There is no major dominance of a white race encoded in my genes.)
So I think whites are confused about discussing race. They have trouble lining up as just "white" and they can't conceive not knowing where they "come from" Unlike many African American's in America who know all too well what its like to have their history erased forever.
Whites will and do speak freely about race, but broken down by European (or whatever else) ancestry they claim to be. I frequently hear endless ribs and jibe about "the Irish" or "the Italians" or "the Polish"
White discrimination runs way beyond simple skin color. Whites not only discriminate on that but there is a whole class of "good" ancestry and "bad" ancestry. Good are any British Isles choices. Germans are good too. French are OK, weird, but OK (unless Republican then they're worthy of scorn). Dutch and Scandinavian peoples are OK too. Polish and Italian are on the "bad" list, so are Greeks. (unless the "good" whites want some nice food, then the "bad" list is suspended long enough to eat). Irish have been on the "bad" list for most of America's history, but recently they've moved to the "good" side. Spaniards are kind of up in the air.
Generally, however, if the skin starts getting a little darker the probability of being on the "bad" list of whites grows. There was a time, in America, where the only place Italians could live was the ghettos reserved for African Americans.
Here's a real life example: My job hired an Italian student for a while until his visa ran out after college. His family was from a northern section of Italy and his skin was very fair. White men (the women had more sense I presume) would come up to this guy and say things like "you don't look Italian" and "you're very pale, are you sure you're Italian" The guy would become very annoyed and embarrassed. I was embarrassed too.
So white people differentiate each other based on ancestral origin. But that stops when being white stops. Anybody else is generically lumped together. All asians are the same, all African Americans are the same, all Latino people are "Mexicans"
Its built into white culture to do this stuff, and so now that people, rightly, are forcing a conversation about it, whites are uncomfortable. Its tough to learn that what you've learned is wrong. Its tough to confront the possibility that one is not as awesome as they've been taught to believe. Its even tougher to consider with the idea that if the culture is wrong about race, what else could also be wrong. Is everything they know about race, class, creed, and sex also wrong? (The answer to that is "yes" and its the source of white guilt)
Of course, this tough slog whites need to do to get over race pales in comparison to the struggles non-whites have every day in America. I don't blame non-whites for being frustrated and fed up with white's bullshit.
Its true there is bullshit in the non-white world. But none of it compares to the Mt. Denali sized pile of bullshit whites give to everybody to sort through. Whites are, for the time being, the dominate culture and race in America. So the river of discrimination that runs through America begins with whites.
For myself, I used to fret and worry about being generically white, having no ancestry to pin my racial identity on was disconcerting and confusing. I thought there was something wrong with me for not being this or that. But now in my middle age, I've come to realize that I'm out side of all that stuff. I put it down and walked away from it. Its much better traveling without that baggage. I'm content to be outside the white world.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Here in California, he's considered white, similar to Italians.
But if he got on a plane to Hawai'i, once he got off, he would not be a haole but a "Portagee"! The distinction goes back to the sugar plantation era, when Portuguese served as the lunas (overseers) in the cane fields, while the haole planters stayed indoors.
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)This was an interesting read! I didn't understand that until I ended up with a co-worker from Boston. I've lived in Mississippi my entire life. I saw her simply as a white woman. Clearly, she was more than that...but for the purposes of this discussion, this is who she was. She considered herself Irish. One thing she quickly noted when she moved to my city is that we had a large Italian population. I thought about it for a moment and agreed. But, I'd never really spent much time thinking about it, until she mentioned it. To me, the nuance didn't register. I didn't see Italian, Irish, etc. I simply saw white people. Not in a derogatory manner. But, it wasn't until her conversation that I considered the nuance.
She also spoke about class issues while living in our city...old money versus new money...belonging to the right family, etc. It simply was not my perspective. Generally, I thought in terms of black & white. Over the last five years, that's evolved into black, white, and Hispanic. But, in our conversations I did begin to look at our city a bit differently. She has moved on to another job, but I hadn't thought of some of this until your post.
Now, a part of me wonders if that's one reason why we experience some disconnect within the democratic party. We talk 'past' each other.
From her experience, class issues (not racial issues) loomed large as she tried to make connections within our city. Class issues were simply not my problem. Because, old money, new money, wrong family, etc...meant nothing to my experience as being a black woman raised in the south. But, in a small city, I could see how these issues could be consuming AFTER the many conversations we had. I'd never really given it any thought before our conversations.
Sorry for the ramble. But, your post was an interesting read.
PS. The Asian population is 0.1% in my city. I found that surprising because I feel like I know a lot of people from Asian descent (probably wrong term). But, I mention it, only because now I'm wondering what that experience must be like within my small city. That's a conversation I've never had.
http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/86/mississippi-chinese-an-ethnic-people-in-a-biracial-society
WhollyHeretic
(4,074 posts)Especially sad to see on a liberal board. It's like the Christians who scream they're being persecuted in this country. Minority groups asking for their rights not to be trampled does not equal oppressing the majority.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Their victimization about having to even see discussions about racism are apparently so much more important than the ACTUAL RACISM that people have to live with.
Minority groups asking for their rights not to be trampled does not equal oppressing the majority.
Thank you. But you gotta love the attempts to turn the conversation from "minority groups wanting their rights" to "minorities claiming VICTIMHOOD." This is a classic tactic. Though it's usually only Freepers and their ilk that are blatant enough to put it out there so openly, but this new DU has emboldened alot of people to say alot of shit.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Can you elaborate?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)What's sad is the infantile and sophomoric notions of race relations.
You'd think whites were the only race capable of bigotry... and never ever experience it themselves.
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