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This message was self-deleted by its author (bigtree) on Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:15 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)For two out of three the first word spoken is "I"...
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...the arrogance, egotism, and self-delusion in that statement of his is stunning.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)"jackass statement"
"arrogance"
"egotism"
"self-delusion"
Why weren't those in your OP?
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...is that some sort of rule?
First you feign offense at them, then you want them in the op. Make up your mind.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)My post was straight forward, unlike your OP. You waited until the first reply to say how you REALLY felt, and what you thought.
I feigned? Damn, I didn't mean to feign... I'm still reading my post and trying to find out what about it constitutes feigning. Can you point out to me where I feigned?
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...then you complain that I buried how I really felt about the statement in the thread.
Make up your mind. Do you want me to start a thread telling folks here how I really feel about Bernie Sanders? I've led with complimentary words for him on many occasion. But if you can't take my criticisms, as well, maybe those efforts were just wasted.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Fuck, I'm not really sure.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)But now I'm fucking sick and tired of your Bernie-bashing bullshit!
How about you educate us about the candidate you support (like you did the events in Ferguson!) and promote that candidate's policy positions and stop badmouthing a man who might very well end up being the Democratic nominee for president?
If you can't do that, then you're going to be the lone resident on my ignore list. I'm not going to read your continuous bashing of a good man who doesn't deserve it, whether anyone thinks he can win or not.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...who jumped me, several times, in the most insulting fashion for daring to contradict his statements, Sanders would never get another gesture (as I've made repeatedly) to support him.
Spare me the histrionics. I'm entitled to my opinion without all of the personalizations. That's your own pathetic choice.
And, by the way, I have spent post after post 'educating about my candidate of choice. I don't see ONE post from you on ONE Sanders supporter's thread demanding they do the same. This is one-sided manufactured outrage. Save it.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)retaliation doesn't apply to me and I don't want to see any more of your Bernie bashing bullshit.
So stop it!
OH, and to refute your dubious claim that I haven't told Bernie supporters to chill the fuck out on Hillary: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6767775
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...just personal attacks on me. That's standard here for almost every criticism of his candidacy. In fact, i haven't seen ONE sanders supporter admit he's said or done ANYTHING wrong in his entire career. Amazing political tone-deafness (presumably fingers in the ears).
You stop it. Get it?
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)everyone that supports Bernie hates Hillary! Not everyone is bashing Hillary or you. So, those of us that aren't doing that shit don't want to see your Bernie bashing.
So, you can stop the bashing of Bernie AND the bashing of you. It's up to you!
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...take ownership of it.
I'm not going to 'stop' speaking my mind on what these candidates say and do. I'm not going to be shouted down or bullied into silence. If that offends your sensibilities then turn away.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)you don't have to stop speaking what's on your mind but you can do it without burning one of our candidates down like dry brush.
I don't have to turn away. I can just place you on ignore. I'd rather not do that and see you acknowledge accept that not all of us deserve to see that level of bashing of our preferred candidate. The language you used is VERY incendiary and it's not called for and when you engage in that level of hate towards Bernie you alienate those of us who don't deserve to see our candidate treated as such.
You realize, don't you, that for every word you type bashing Bernie, that could be a word toward promoting your favored candidate?
I'll tell you like I told NYC_Skip: "I'm a fan of yours...but you need to chill the fuck out. You're talking about the person
who may well end up being our candidate."
Please. You can criticize Bernie all you want. But you could also temper your commentary so that it's not so hot it burns.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)I made a comparative op pointing out Sanders had mislead his audience about the other candidates. That was immediately responded to with personal attacks, one after another, yours included. You're still at it. You don't have any room to talk down to me about 'tempering my commentary.'
I won't be bullied into silence. I will speak my mind about the way I feel about these candidates' rhetoric and actions.
Raine1967
(11,590 posts)Please tell me this was sarcasm.
You know why O'Malley supporters aren't all full on here in GD?
because of posts like this. What a crappy post.
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)bigtree
(86,273 posts)...I'm not a Hillary supporter, and your candidate said some arrogant, egotistical, self-serving, and delusional shit here.
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)bigtree
(86,273 posts)...and very little in his defense outside of personal attacks like the one you just got away with.
Face it. Not every word out of his lips is sacrosanct and unassailable.
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)It had it's designed effect. So if it is so personal to you alert.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...my wife asked me what it was, and I told her a poster named 'snotcicles' just said I was repulsive.
Yeah, that just happened.
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)bigtree
(86,273 posts)...you can't really be that sensitive to a few discouraging words about a career politician. Seriously.
Raine1967
(11,590 posts)Because I think you are making assumptions about the DU'r based on what you wrote.
Bigtree is not for or against Clinton. He has said that he supports Martin O'Malley at this point and time.
whopis01
(3,550 posts)to make the campaign about the issues.
Kick and rec
Vattel
(9,289 posts)bigtree
(86,273 posts)...in as eloquent and as inclusive a manner in which he made his self-serving point.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)and saying that "the arrogance, egotism, and self-delusion in that statement of his is stunning" seems to me to be ridiculously over-the-top, but maybe I am missing something.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...you're really just mad that I said mean things about Bernie. Got it.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Andy823
(11,496 posts)"And so, when a child with a world of learning ahead asks who you voted for, I want you to be able to tell that child, I voted for you.
When you see a dad sweating through another long shift in order to give his daughter a better future, I want you to be able to tell him, I voted for you.
When you see a mom working long hours at two jobs for the dream of sending her son to college, I want you to be able to tell her, I voted for you.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Typical campaign rhetoric. All the candidates will probably have some version of "I'm the only one who will say...". Much ado...
Everytime I read a post like this, all I can think is that I hope the author of it is getting paid to do it. If not, well, that's pretty sad.
Cha
(299,148 posts)It's obvious that parsing campaign speeches on behalf of candidates who've never heard of the parser is a high art and that I should be ashamed for questioning its practitioners. I will attempt to rectify my errors through a thorough regimen of self-criticism. I hope to have corrected this obvious failing soon. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...their candidacy is about the people who would elect them?
Never happened?
And by the way, it's insulting to read that I'm some paid operative for criticizing him, while you're the one carrying this candidate's bags here. I happen to have a very physically challenging night grocery job that I'm about to depart for. I'll be in the back room in sweltering heat in an hour or so breaking down pallets of groceries. I'll be imagining while I'm doing the back-breaking labor for my low wage that I'm actually a big-time political operative.
If I thought you were paid to write it, I'd say it directly. What I actually said was that if you did it for free, it's pretty sad. I'd personally find that a more damning judgment, but, hey man, to each his own.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...and no one paid you for these personal attacks?
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)I said I hoped you were being paid because it's sad if you're not. That's not an insinuation that you're being paid, it's an indirect statement that you're engaged in a ridiculous activity. If you didn't understand that much, maybe you shouldn't be out there parsing text. After all, if you couldn't parse the clear intent of what I wrote, it doesn't bode well for more complex writings, now does it?
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...it's clear.
Address the op, defend the candidate, by personally attacking my character. Standard defense here.
Not your character, your choice of activity. If I'd decided to attack your character, I'd have done just that. I clearly mocked you for parsing a campaign speech. If you're unable to separate your character from the activities you undertake, that's on you, pal.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...got it. He can say any jackass thing he wants but no calling him on it, lest I get accused of being a paid troll.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)I'd think more highly of the OP if you actually were paid to write it.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...not paid, of course, for this desperate defense of your candidate's jackass statement.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Clam down, bud. It was a single comment. Maybe you shouldn't try parsing campaign speeches if you don't want to be mocked for it.
By the way, whether or not you believe it, I don't have a candidate. I just think it's ridiculous to parse campaign speeches for any kind of content. They're a notorious fact-free zone. It's the sort of activity that is usually undertaken by people involved in the actual campaigns, not random dudes on the internet. It's a fairly pathetic activity at best, but it's at least understandable when the person doing it has a personal stake, like a job. When there's no personal stake, well, you get the idea.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...I'm a 54 year old man who has every right to express my opinion here.
I don't deserve 'mocking' or talking down to for doing that, but you go right on if you think that's appropriate for you.
There's few things I like as much as the dignity defense. Granted, you undermined it a bit with that lame parsing of campaign speeches in the OP, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I have to admire your brazenness. I don't know that I'd combine an argument for my right to speak with a denunciation for my opponent doing exactly the same, but roll with it, pal. It's clearly working for you.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...roll with that.
Are you just trying to tee me up now or is this serious?
SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)Cha
(299,148 posts)SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)And how people died for those wrongs?
No, I think not.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...someone got killed here? Get real, he made a self-serving statement. This from the man who claimed he was above that sort of thing.
The record is clear. ALL the candidates expressed that their run for office was about the people who would elect them, not just the man with the egotistical statement.
SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)He is wrong. They did. Paying attention is a good idea
SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)He voted against murder in Iraq.
Cha
(299,148 posts)supporters are going off the deep trying to scrub his slate clean.. with their never ending Predictable, personal attacks.
I know Bernie has a lot of good points but perfect.. no.. and, it will be pointed out and questioned whether the masses on DU want it or not.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,078 posts)Love it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It is like a holy affirmation of all that I already believed.
JI7
(89,370 posts)bigtree
(86,273 posts)...on what to not 'take literally' from Sanders' rhetoric.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)this place is well, always guaranteed to offer some real good entertainment.
Make mine with butter, YYYUUUMMM
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Other than this one, I mean.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)You've no idea what I do with my time.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Go Hillary!!1!1!!
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)To parse on this level is ridiculous and a bad precedent.
Not to mention intellectually dishonest.
You should delete it.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...that's the standard here?
Spare me that bullshit. You have an ignore button. Use it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)were trying to maintain a higher standard and not vomit out garbage like this.
And that is what it is. Pure garbage.
You called me a class act in a PM to me for deleting an OP you asked me to.
I wish I could return the compliment.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...and you think this is analogous to that?
Get real. This is hyper-inflated defense of a political candidate through personal attacks on a critic. Same craven effort.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Tea Potty
(27 posts)Why is DU suddenly filled with all these nasty Bernie posts parsing speeches to spread disinfo?
This is beyond tasteless. Are the billionaires that scared?
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)OP is amazing. Some of the people who bash Obama and Hillary all day every day here sure have thin skins.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)That is "fairly innocuous"?
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)I won't use another word that comes to mind.
Bernie is trying to tell people that democracy will
not and cannot work without the participation of
the citizens, and that includes a heck of a lot more
than just voting.
I am not sure that people grasp that he is asking
of them to start to take part in the low paying
local governments jobs, but that is his intention.
If you find that arrogant, try again!
FAIL!
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...except for the part where he says the others won't tell voters that. He's obviously mistaken.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)candidates call for a peaceful kind of revolution, in which
all citizens should take part in.
But I am sure you will let me know.
Inspite of your over the top downer of Bernie,
I shall still respect O'Malley
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...calling for a 'peaceful revolution?'
I really don't see much difference in anything other than the way he phrased it. All of the candidates have pledged to act on behalf of the people.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)Acting on behalf of the people is quite different
than asking the people to get to work to act on
behalf of themselves. May be he expects too
much of most Americans, but that is his main
theme, as well as trying to give them the reasons
why they need to do it.
We will see. I still will vote for him in my caucus,
even though I have my doubts that the people
will really heed his call. It is so easy after the elections
to say "I have done my job, now it is up to the
politicians".
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Peace is restored.
Separation
(1,975 posts)This OP is like a parent telling their child, "I love you to the moon and back.' Then immediately being called out by you in a passive aggressive way saying that its impossible.
I guess what I am saying then that this OP is childish? Yep, I guess I do. The same as the Hillary rally at Roosevelt Park OP. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026767673
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...as if that excuses their personal attacks on anyone daring to question or criticize Bernie.
Talk about 'passive aggressive.'
TM99
(8,352 posts)you mentioned Hillary in the OP.
Therefore, if you are going to attempt to compare O'Malley, Sanders, and Clinton, you might have to be prepared for, you know, statements about Hillary.
merrily
(45,251 posts)candidate at that even had mention federal funding or collective bargaining.
I don't know about collective bargaining, but one of the news reports about that event included a quote from Bernie about federal funding. THE VERY SAME EVENING, WITH O'MALLEY IN ATTENDANCE.
Still, O'Malley got the best reception of the event and I I congratulate him on giving an important speech that spoke to the concerns of his audience and gave it in such a way that resonated with his audience.
I hope that, at some point, DU get that nitpicking Bernie Sanders and digging up hit pieces about him to post is not accomplishing a damn thing besides being embarrassing.
This country has much more important needs than whether O'Malley heard Bernie Sanders say something about funding that very same evening or if Bernie knows every word of every speech ever made by every other candidate in the race. Most of them are saying the same things Bernie has been saying for 40 years anyway. Small wonder there is overlap.
Just because mass media obsesses over that kind of trivial shit and breadcrumb sins doesn't mean trivial shit is important or even relevant.
SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)You got that right. Maybe some are just waking up and I can grant them that. But yes, Bernie is the compass for most of it and it saddens me that he is being smeared into some kind of ill meaning ogre by the Camp that should know better - this will not work, it didn't work in '08 and it will not work now. Stop the lies and talk about the condition of the people of this country and how to improve it and don't go Kardashian for gawds sakes.
merrily
(45,251 posts)determine what will resonate with voters. What happens after the election is anyone's guess.
I believe that O'Malley and Sanders have been sticking relatively closely to what they've always said.
SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)Unusual birds.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Obviously, my preference is Bernie, but I would not cast any asparagus at O'Malley.
Unless, of course, he was really hungry.
SaranchaIsWaiting
(247 posts)Now I am at a loss what to cast at O'Malley in foodstuffs. Not tomatoes, for sure. Maybe I can boil up some good cabbage, real soft like and cast that at him along with a jar of Beano. It's good roughage!
JustAnotherGen
(32,292 posts)O'Malley hasn't been "saying" - he's been doing. He kept winning bigger jobs - because he was doing things.
I make the point because he appeals to me based on his step by step, inch by inch approach.
That said - the only candidate I'm going to have a hard time canvassing for in the GE is Clinton.
herding cats
(19,575 posts)The actual quote was:
http://prospect.org/authors/cooper-hewell
He was attacking the proper people in his statement.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I did praise him anyway on what I thought was both relevant and important for that event.
And that was my point, that we try to focus on what is relevant and important.
However, I very much appreciate the correction, because accuracy is important. I don't want to say anything about any candidate that is not consistent with the facts.
herding cats
(19,575 posts)I was just clarifying the words he used in that speech, because they were important to the excellent point he was making.
If I didn't know where to find them, I wouldn't have been able to give you the exact quote. It was paraphrased, as you said, at most places. Which is a shame; It's an excellent quote.
merrily
(45,251 posts)correction.
PLEASE continue to do that whenever you think I've misstated any fact at all. I hate doing that. As the saying goes, I'm entitled to my own opinions, but I am not entitled to my own facts. And I don't want to misstate.
jmarston1914r
(2 posts)Unlike so many other politicians, he is actually in touch with the needs of the American people. I wish him great success in his presidential campaign. God knows this country is in dire need of a leader like him.
William769
(55,295 posts)Autumn
(45,145 posts)we people would have to create a movement to take back the power of our government. Just voting for someone isn't enough.
It is about creating a political movement of millions of people who stand up and loudly and proudly proclaim that this nation and our government belongs to all of us and not just a handful of billionaires.
Here's that whole statement from his Denver speech.
It's campaigning, they will all say stuff.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Autumn
(45,145 posts)the movement to take back control of our government, so in that respect Bernie was right. The anger over that one sentence seems OTT.
NanceGreggs
(27,825 posts)What did you think was the thrust of Obama's campaign in 2008? What did you think, "Yes, WE can" was all about?
What did you think, "WE are the ones WE'VE been waiting for" meant?
The problem was that the minute Obama was elected, "we" became "him" for many here. "Why isn't HE doing something about this? Why isn't HE achieving everything he said he'd do?"
This need for Sanders supporters to believe that he is the first politician to promote the idea that it takes "the people" to effect change is absolutely startling.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your country." I guess you've never heard of that one either?
Bernie is very adept at highlighting the importance of the wheel - there's no need to pretend he invented it.
Cha
(299,148 posts)There's no need for him to pretend, either.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)That is the key distinction. That is what Bernie says that other candidates are not and that was the thrust of his statement.
I also wouldn't read a current candidate's statement on their position and their candidacy as comparing themself to every candidate who has ever ran for presideicncy.
TM99
(8,352 posts)truncated the quote to massage a pointed smear.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)I missed that on the first pass and thought Bernie had made a gaffe. Because *of course* they all say it's about the rhetorical "you" (meaning the listener).
But I think Bernie is differentiating that this is not a conventional campaign, but the call for a movement to change the course of history. Not only to repudiate and end Reaganism but to ask us to evolve to the point where we as a nation (indeed as a species) overthrow the elites and establish a culture which is sustainable. As opposed to the capitalistic system which is destroying the planet and causing a species extinction crisis.
I have seen no other leader like this in my lifetime. I think maybe MLK and RFK were headed there, but that was a simpler time. My respect for Bernie keeps growing.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Mr. Sanders tried to juxtapose voting for a candidate and working together for reform. Delegation of authority versus co-operation.
bigtree
(86,273 posts)...and I'll take responsibility for that by deleting it.
I'm sorry if I'm precluding anyone from having their say...