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flvegan

(64,371 posts)
Mon Mar 12, 2012, 11:33 PM Mar 2012

Study: Too much red meat may shorten lifespan

Want to live longer? Trade some of the red meat in your diet for fish, nuts, whole grains, and other healthier protein sources, Harvard researchers say.

That's the conclusion of a new study, published this week in the Archives of Internal Medicine, that found that the risk of dying at an early age -- from heart disease, cancer, or any other cause—rises in step with red-meat consumption.

Eating too much red meat, which is high in saturated fat and cholesterol, has long been seen as unhealthy, especially for the heart. The new study, however, is the first to estimate the effect of swapping out red meat on a person's lifespan.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health/red-meat-shorten-lifespan/index.html

Insert popcorn smiley here.

*grins*

97 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Study: Too much red meat may shorten lifespan (Original Post) flvegan Mar 2012 OP
Most corn is GMO? tabatha Mar 2012 #1
86% according to Wikipedia... Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #2
The most interesting part of this study laundry_queen Mar 2012 #4
Feeding any kind of corn to cows is terrifically unhealthy for the cows. Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #6
Ha. I'd say that LIFE is terrifically unhealthy for ze cows. n/t cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #11
Silage is very commonly fed to cows, and they do well with silage as part of the diet FarCenter Mar 2012 #30
Silage is not corn. Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #36
Silage is normally made of corn FarCenter Mar 2012 #41
When I was growing up on the farm, sileage was the green part only. Not the corn. Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #46
Silage is the whole plant, ears and all FarCenter Mar 2012 #49
This was pre rampant use of anti-biotics. Not one farmer I knew would have fed the cows Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #55
no Kali Mar 2012 #87
Don't cut carbs out -- carbs are terrific for you obamanut2012 Mar 2012 #70
I suppose I should know better here on DU :) laundry_queen Mar 2012 #72
I think you will find that even grass fed beef is "finished" on grains. dixiegrrrrl Mar 2012 #86
depends on the farm/ranch Kali Mar 2012 #88
I lived in an area laundry_queen Mar 2012 #97
of cows ... frazzled Mar 2012 #3
I eat lamb once a week Aerows Mar 2012 #39
Yep, it is pretty much a given that lamb and goat are grass-fed. tabatha Mar 2012 #58
Yes veganlush Mar 2012 #5
If lovin' you is wrooOOoong... I don't wanna be right. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #7
While others say the opposite. Swede Mar 2012 #8
That is not the opposite. ZombieHorde Mar 2012 #12
I disagree. Conservatives throw out red meat all the time and they seem to live forever!! Loudmxr Mar 2012 #9
Don't care, give me a good steak over all those other things anyday. Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #10
i'm shocked this is the first study to quatify this arely staircase Mar 2012 #13
You could try almond milk. It's delicious and always wins taste tests vs cow milk. nt Liquorice Mar 2012 #61
It is delicious. Too often though, people buy the sugary kind. Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #76
tried it, and i like it arely staircase Mar 2012 #79
Might portion control have anything to do with it? The Genealogist Mar 2012 #75
He might like to read "The Omnivores Dilemma" or "In Defense of Food"... Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #77
definitely arely staircase Mar 2012 #78
Yes, but they make that shorter lifespan so much nicer. LadyHawkAZ Mar 2012 #14
Define "too much." aquart Mar 2012 #15
The U.S. govt recommends 5.5 - 6 oz from the meat/beans group daily. Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #16
The article claims "half a serving per day" ... surrealAmerican Mar 2012 #21
When I goes, I knows I will be with the lawd, do I don't care 'bout no science stuff. jobycom Mar 2012 #17
I eat very little beef because I don't have arthritis flare ups if I stay away from it. appleannie1 Mar 2012 #18
The bones of most people in their 60s and on don't absorb enough Cal33 Mar 2012 #40
They can take my meat when they pry it from my cold dead hands. nt Recovered Repug Mar 2012 #19
You...I like you. nt Bladian Mar 2012 #54
Probably won't shorten it as much as corn syrup. diane in sf Mar 2012 #20
Got a study for that Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #81
The McFood generation will be the one to reverse the trend toward longer lifespans. HopeHoops Mar 2012 #22
I have realized, and am embarrassed it took so long, that there is anti-nutritionalism as well as RadiationTherapy Mar 2012 #23
All corn-fed meat is unhealthy econoclast Mar 2012 #24
Most of the omega-6 in modern diets would be from vegetable oils FarCenter Mar 2012 #32
The "Omnivores Dilemma is one of my favorite books of all time. Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #45
Every day, I get a little closer to going vegan. LanternWaste Mar 2012 #25
Tell that to my 108 year old great-uncle. hobbit709 Mar 2012 #26
The oldest recorded person was a lady in Arles, France. Quantess Mar 2012 #27
Well, I am 73 and have been smoking since I was 16. RebelOne Mar 2012 #42
My dad lived to be 85...eating grease and smoking Pall Mall non-filters. RagAss Mar 2012 #84
I imagine we often hold anecdotal evidence nearer and dearer to us that peer-reviewed analyses... LanternWaste Mar 2012 #34
I'd say it depends a lot on where you live and what kind of food you eat. hobbit709 Mar 2012 #44
Yes, because one anecdotal piece of evidence Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #82
I'd like to see them distinguish between grain-fed and grass-fed beef. trotsky Mar 2012 #28
It's also healthier for the cattle. geardaddy Mar 2012 #29
Exactly. drokhole Mar 2012 #33
That's so cool! Quantess Mar 2012 #48
Joel Salatin is brilliant. drokhole Mar 2012 #68
Salatin AND the eatwild link! Kali Mar 2012 #89
If they are referring to corn fed, shot full of hormones American cattle, then I believe them. Beacool Mar 2012 #31
I stopped eating red meat when I was a teenager and I'm in my 40s now. Arugula Latte Mar 2012 #35
I've changed some of my ways Aerows Mar 2012 #37
We have to ban things like pepperoni, salami, and pastrami. Look to NYC to lead the way. nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #38
Who or what are you responding to, exactly? sudopod Mar 2012 #62
Born and raised there. nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #63
I have not eaten any meat except fish for 15 years. RebelOne Mar 2012 #43
I too am a vegetarian for reasons of compassion. Vattel Mar 2012 #47
dropping the dead flesh is obviously (to me) the most important leap our species needs to make stuntcat Mar 2012 #50
It's sort of hard living with people who complain about others eating meat. Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #51
oh then you don't deny the conditions, stuntcat Mar 2012 #52
I don't deny it, I just don't really care. Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #53
I wasn't gonna reply to you again but stuntcat Mar 2012 #56
You can't exactly "phase out" the animals without purging the population. Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #57
Your post is terrible, in virtually all ways jsmirman Mar 2012 #60
Was this news blurb sponsored by The Olive Garden? Major Hogwash Mar 2012 #59
Thankfully, bacon isn't red meat... SidDithers Mar 2012 #64
If it were up to me The2ndWheel Mar 2012 #65
Woo Hoo!!! Ignorance! Yeah!!! jsmirman Mar 2012 #67
I'm no fan of factory farming The2ndWheel Mar 2012 #71
Meh! HappyMe Mar 2012 #66
I don't eat much red meat. Jennicut Mar 2012 #69
Tom Woods Interviews Gary Taubes on Red Meat Scare Study Swede Mar 2012 #73
I think it's OK though if you put out your cigarette before Old Troop Mar 2012 #74
I never eat red meat sikorsky Mar 2012 #80
I guess if I was rich I'd care about living a long life. RagAss Mar 2012 #83
Right, because all those people on the Atkins diet have dropped dead, right? Odin2005 Mar 2012 #85
You're right. Harvard researchers and science in general be damned. flvegan Mar 2012 #90
Please, please tell him what happened to Atkins, himself jsmirman Mar 2012 #92
He lost weight and lived into his 80s. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #94
Yeah, that would be incorrect jsmirman Mar 2012 #96
I would not call most nutrition to be science. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #95
Bad methodology. iris27 Mar 2012 #91
Yep, people are very bad at describing what they eat and how much. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #93

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
4. The most interesting part of this study
Mon Mar 12, 2012, 11:45 PM
Mar 2012

is the horrendous impact things like bacon and salami seem to have. That's been several new studies that have just come out that say that processed meats w/nitrites are really, really horrible - they increase your risk of colon cancer and pancreatic cancer by 20% and now it seems like they increase your overall risk of death by the same amount.

I will continue to eat red meat occasionally, and cut out carbs, and refrain from anything with nitrites. And when I am able to afford grass-fed beef, I'll go for that because I agree that feeding cows GMO corn probably isn't making for the healthiest meat on the market.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
41. Silage is normally made of corn
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:41 PM
Mar 2012
Corn Silage
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G4590

It can be made of other plants, such as sorghum, but most silage in those tall blue silos that dot the landscape is corn silage.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
46. When I was growing up on the farm, sileage was the green part only. Not the corn.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:23 PM
Mar 2012

Cows have a very difficult time digesting corn.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
49. Silage is the whole plant, ears and all
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 04:56 PM
Mar 2012

The silage chopper cuts off the stalk a few inches above the ground and chops up the whole plant. It is usually done when the kernals are not completely hard, but are still a little soft. But they are quite mature, because you harvest silage after the plant has started to dry out. The cobs may be a little smaller than in corn raised for grain, because silage corn is planted at a higher density of plants per acre.

The kernals, usually attached to some cob, can be easily seen in the silage.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
55. This was pre rampant use of anti-biotics. Not one farmer I knew would have fed the cows
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 05:33 PM
Mar 2012

anything but the green part. Not one. Corn makes cows sick. And that is a fact. These days, we don't care if they get sick, we just add anti-biotics to the feed and let them stand knee-high deep in their own shit and hope that they don't get too sick before slaughter.

The silage corn that the farmers grew in my farm community was reserved for horses. In fact, we called it horse corn.

Kali

(54,948 posts)
87. no
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 10:59 PM
Mar 2012

the problems happen when the ratios are so far off from nature. Cattle can consume a fair amount of grain just fine - as long as it is balanced with roughage. Intensive feeding to push growth/fat with a high carb (grain) diet is when you get the metabolic problems.

In nature, there are times of the year (typically late summer and fall) when grasses are ripening and going to seed that cattle eat a much larger portion of "grain" than the rest of the year. That was one reason home slaughter happened in late fall/early winter (another reason is flies and storage issues). Same with hunting. That is when an animal is typically at its highest plane of nutrition and health.

obamanut2012

(25,850 posts)
70. Don't cut carbs out -- carbs are terrific for you
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:11 AM
Mar 2012

Just cut out simple carbs like sugar and white flour. I rarely eat corn because of the GMO factor, but some corn is fine for humans, just not cattle and dogs and cats.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
72. I suppose I should know better here on DU :)
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 11:13 AM
Mar 2012

and I should have clarified.

When I said cut out carbs, I meant continuing my low carb diet. Contrary to most popular opinion, low-carb diets contain plenty of carbs. On the weight loss phase of the particular low-carb diet I'm on, you are supposed to eat 11-20 grams 5 times a day. You aren't allowed sugar or 'white' carbs though. And those 11-20 carbs are 'extra', meaning you don't have to count the carbs in nuts/seeds or vegetables. Those 11-20 carbs are supposed to come from whole grains or fruits.

There IS a type of 'induction' phase of the diet where you eat 5 grams of carbs every 5 hours or so, which is really restrictive, but it's only for a short period of time. Most of the time you are supposed to have the 11-20 carbs each meal, and on the maintenance phase you are supposed to (not 'allowed' but 'supposed to') eat even more carbs.

Anyhow, just thought I'd mention that. When I said cut out carbs I didn't mean I was going to eat nothing but meat.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
86. I think you will find that even grass fed beef is "finished" on grains.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:27 PM
Mar 2012

We get organic grass fed beef, actually 1/2 of a beef, once a year.
While raised on pasture grass, for some period of time before slaughter, beef are grain fed.
I forgot the reasoning the farmer gave me, but it appears to be a common practice.

Wonder if there are any buffalo ranches near me.....maybe that would be different?

Kali

(54,948 posts)
88. depends on the farm/ranch
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:06 PM
Mar 2012

you can get grass only, range only, clean-out fed with corn, grain finished, etc. and yes the same applies to buffalo. Ask whoever you are buying from what their feeding/finishing program is and if you want something different ask if they are amenable to that. I bet most any direct seller will explain their philosophy fully if you are interested and many will custom finish as well.

usually a few weeks of grain are fed to get a less gamey flavor, more than that is to develop better marbling/tenderness.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
97. I lived in an area
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 10:38 PM
Mar 2012

Where buffalo meat was plentiful. I bought buffalo steak often. I'm not sure if they got grains or not, the package always just said, 'grass-fed'.

I didn't know about the 'finished' on grains, but it makes sense - from what I understand, the grains make the meat taste better, so feeding them grains right at the end would eliminate any weird taste from a fully grass-fed cow. We once got a cow that just didn't taste 'right' and my (now ex) husband talked to the farmer and he said that he didn't give the cows grain at all and maybe the cow 'got into something'. The meat was slightly wild and skunky tasting - like moose meat.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
39. I eat lamb once a week
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:15 PM
Mar 2012

It's so good it's like a slice of heaven. I'd eat goat, too, for a change up if there was fresh in my area.

tabatha

(18,795 posts)
58. Yep, it is pretty much a given that lamb and goat are grass-fed.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 10:49 PM
Mar 2012

I try to eat lamb every other week.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
7. If lovin' you is wrooOOoong... I don't wanna be right.
Mon Mar 12, 2012, 11:47 PM
Mar 2012

Gimme red meat, and let me step aside to make room for two more...

MMM mmm MMM.

Swede

(32,967 posts)
8. While others say the opposite.
Mon Mar 12, 2012, 11:47 PM
Mar 2012

The low carb,high protein is getting more popular. You eat meat,eggs,butter etc,but avoid all breads,pastas etc.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
13. i'm shocked this is the first study to quatify this
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:06 AM
Mar 2012

pretty sure red meat and the cigs killed my dad at 58 (heart attack), but then his dad ate just as much and lived to 92 - but didn't smoke.

I try to limit it to small portioned lean cuts no more than once a week. i try to eat lots of fish and have given up the pork except the most rare occasion (like relatives in town and they insist on the shoney's buffett)

before i moved i used to eat at a place that served free range bison burgers - supposedly not as bad for you.

the hardest thing for me to give up is whole milk. it's just so much tastier than 2 percent and 1 percent might as well be water, which sucks on grape nuts.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
79. tried it, and i like it
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:05 PM
Mar 2012

that was a long time ago. maybe i'll try slowly working it in with an eye on making it a replacement.

The Genealogist

(4,723 posts)
75. Might portion control have anything to do with it?
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 08:26 PM
Mar 2012

Two of my grandparents lived to be near 90. My dad's dad couldn't understand how people drank so much soda. Soda was usually a Saturday afternoon treat. He never ate large meals, and he was a letter carrier for years, and remained quite active after retirement too, with much travel and activities such as canoeing and fishing. My mother's mother never ate large meals. She rarely even finished a burger, fries and drink when she ate them, and that was with 70s and 80s sized portions, not the ultra-jumbo sized meals fast food places serve. They both ate plenty of veggies, but they did eat what is today considered unhealthy foods; they just at LESS of it. My other two grandparents died at younger ages, but one had cancer, the other what seems to be a hereditary heart condition. My parents didn't live to very advanced ages, but both had cancer. They both ate more food, too.

At the same time, I can look at what fretting about health does to people, too. A cousin of my mother's with whom I'm close has blood pressure issues, cancer, nerves. He spends many hours at the doctor, and swallows meds all day long. I think at least part of his problem is that news and some health practitioners have kept him ratcheted up with nerves over the years, which contributes to his poor health. He frets over nearly everything he puts in his mouth because "a study" said this or "TV Doctor so-and-so" said that.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
77. He might like to read "The Omnivores Dilemma" or "In Defense of Food"...
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 08:40 PM
Mar 2012

both are written by Michael Pollan and both might help him put his mind at ease. "The Omnivores Dilemma" is more dense - a personal narrative chocked full of useful information - "In Defense of Food" goes straight to the information. Neither one advocate "a study" said this or a "TV Doctor so-and-so" said that. Both reject yo-yo food fads.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
78. definitely
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:02 PM
Mar 2012

and excercise - your letter carrying grandfather, for example. i think that, along with not smoking is what allowed my grandfather to outlive his son (my dad.) the former was blue collar, outside and doing physical labor. my dad was an accountant.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
16. The U.S. govt recommends 5.5 - 6 oz from the meat/beans group daily.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:30 AM
Mar 2012

This group includes meat, fish, poultry, eggs, nuts, seeds, dried beans and peas. So, probably more than 2 oz of red meat a day is too much.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/282320-recommended-daily-intake-of-food-groups/#ixzz1oyIqw5Ui

surrealAmerican

(11,318 posts)
21. The article claims "half a serving per day" ...
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 07:20 AM
Mar 2012

... is a good amount, more than that ought to be avoided. They also recommend doing without processed meats (bacon, hot dogs, etc.) entirely.

jobycom

(49,038 posts)
17. When I goes, I knows I will be with the lawd, do I don't care 'bout no science stuff.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:56 AM
Mar 2012


And btw, what happened to the clown smilie? Those bastads!
 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
40. The bones of most people in their 60s and on don't absorb enough
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:26 PM
Mar 2012

calcium, even when they take high doses of Vit. D, Magnesium, etc... So
fragile bones that fracture easily and become arthritic is the result for
older people. It may take many years though. I started having pain
some 8 months ago and did quite some research.

Just google EZorb. There's a lot of info on bone problems of all sorts
there. I started taking the pills, and within 3 to 4 weeks I noticed a
considerable decrease in the pain.

Just read it, and good luck.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
23. I have realized, and am embarrassed it took so long, that there is anti-nutritionalism as well as
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 08:07 AM
Mar 2012

anti-intellectualism. One of my professors wrote a paper about the correlation between masculinity and meat eating and that the media portrays "Real Men" as hard-core, red meat eaters. Among my conservative friends, calorie consumption, "bucking" nutritional "trends" (or facts, depending), and eating lots of red, cured meats all seem to reinforce their conservative cred; in one another's minds, anyway.

I expect to see a surge in the anti-nutrition crowd in the wake of this report.

econoclast

(543 posts)
24. All corn-fed meat is unhealthy
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 08:10 AM
Mar 2012

Not just red meat and not just GMO corn

There are two main types of essential fatty acids. Omeda-3 and omega-6.

Omega-6 promotes inflammation and blood clotting. Omega-3 helps blood flow freely.

Corn is high in omega-6 fatty acids. All corn...not just GMO corn. Modern beef cows are fed a diet of mostly corn. This produces beef with enormous amounts of omega-6. Grass fed beef by contrast contains about equal amounts of omega-6 and omega-3.

Fish has a high proportion of omega-3. But be advised that farm raised fish can be fed a diet based on corn products as well. Those fish yield meat that is also high in omega-6

So I think that what this study really points to is an over abundance of omega-6 in our diets.

I highly recommend a book ( yes a book not a website ) titled "Omnivores Dilemma"

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
32. Most of the omega-6 in modern diets would be from vegetable oils
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:39 AM
Mar 2012

It is much more concentrated in corn oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, etc than it is in the fat of meats.

There is also more omega-6 in chicken than in ground beef.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
45. The "Omnivores Dilemma is one of my favorite books of all time.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:20 PM
Mar 2012

I refer to it often and reread passages now and again.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
25. Every day, I get a little closer to going vegan.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 08:36 AM
Mar 2012

Every day, I get a little closer to going vegan.

Pink slime, saturated fats, red dye to make meat appear "healthier" in grocery stores, etc.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
27. The oldest recorded person was a lady in Arles, France.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
Mar 2012

She smoked cigarettes most of her life. But that doesn't mean people should keep on puffing away.

RebelOne

(30,947 posts)
42. Well, I am 73 and have been smoking since I was 16.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:52 PM
Mar 2012

And I am still alive and kicking with no serious health problems, so I hope to make to my 80s.

RagAss

(13,832 posts)
84. My dad lived to be 85...eating grease and smoking Pall Mall non-filters.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:33 PM
Mar 2012

Maybe I need to switch from these filtered cigs I smoke.

-rags

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
34. I imagine we often hold anecdotal evidence nearer and dearer to us that peer-reviewed analyses...
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:02 PM
Mar 2012

I imagine we often hold anecdotal evidence nearer and dearer to us that peer-reviewed analyses as science is merely a convenience...

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
44. I'd say it depends a lot on where you live and what kind of food you eat.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:19 PM
Mar 2012

My great-uncle lives in Vienna.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
28. I'd like to see them distinguish between grain-fed and grass-fed beef.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:17 AM
Mar 2012

Grass-fed is much healthier for you with better fats.

geardaddy

(24,908 posts)
29. It's also healthier for the cattle.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:25 AM
Mar 2012

Cows stomachs aren't designed to eat corn at all, whether it's GMO or not.

drokhole

(1,230 posts)
68. Joel Salatin is brilliant.
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:02 AM
Mar 2012

He and his farm have been featured on some great documentaries - like Food Inc. and Fresh. He's also an author, and has given loads of fantastic, impassioned speeches across the country - including this TED Talk:

Kali

(54,948 posts)
89. Salatin AND the eatwild link!
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:14 PM
Mar 2012

My usual links to post for people looking to eat better and encourage saner agriculture too.

Beacool

(30,240 posts)
31. If they are referring to corn fed, shot full of hormones American cattle, then I believe them.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:33 AM
Mar 2012

But go tell that to an elderly Argentine gaucho who has been eating beef all his life. The difference is that their cattle is grass fed, mostly grazing in the vast pampas. Argentine beef is delicious and I intend to get plenty of eat on my next trip there. In the States I eat beef sparingly.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
37. I've changed some of my ways
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:05 PM
Mar 2012

I eat more fish. I haven't stopped drinking milk since calcium is a huge issue for women. I never was a fan of eggs, so that's not a problem.

I DO have to take iron supplements. I have a tendency towards anemia. What do you suppose those iron supplements are derived from? This isn't a facetious question - it's a genuine one. What are they derived from?

Spinach and other legumes have iron, but much of it is not absorbed by the body due to the presence of other minerals that take precedence.

I'm not attacking this study, nor claiming you are wrong, FLVegan. There are tremendous benefits to a vegan lifestyle. I'm just opening up a dialogue.

RebelOne

(30,947 posts)
43. I have not eaten any meat except fish for 15 years.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:55 PM
Mar 2012

It was not for health reasons, but my compassion for animals. I cannot become a vegan because I love cheese, milk and eggs. But at least the animals did not have to be killed for their eggs and milk products.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
47. I too am a vegetarian for reasons of compassion.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:33 PM
Mar 2012

The life of a plant has no value for it (as far as I can tell) but the life of a cow clearly can have more or less value for the cow, depending on how happy the cow is and how long it lives. Personally, I want cows to have long, happy lives.

stuntcat

(12,022 posts)
50. dropping the dead flesh is obviously (to me) the most important leap our species needs to make
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 05:07 PM
Mar 2012

The sooner we do it the better. Right now we really are raping our own future with that industry. It's a total waste.

Also a shame the disgusting violence going on every day, that consumers are in denial of.

It's evolution, honor, decency. It's sorta hard living with people who still eat some meat, but the ones who beat their chests about the steaks they eat make me ashamed of my species.

Mr.Turnip

(645 posts)
51. It's sort of hard living with people who complain about others eating meat.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 05:11 PM
Mar 2012

The ones who really yell about it and call us murderers and say we deny the conditions of the industry make me ashamed of my species.

Mr.Turnip

(645 posts)
53. I don't deny it, I just don't really care.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 05:29 PM
Mar 2012

Call me cold or selfish or whatever you like. But think of this, if we did not use all the cattle and other domesticated animals we currently have on farms, ranches, factories what have you what would happen to all of them? If we just let them live and bred why they would wreck completely havok on ecosystems around the world.

And yes maybe I am a bit offended by people claiming they are morally superior to others because of what they eat, particularly when they express disdain for people who do not eat like they do.

stuntcat

(12,022 posts)
56. I wasn't gonna reply to you again but
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 05:51 PM
Mar 2012

but you don't see that the billions of animals being farmed for food wouldn't be there if people hadn't built that earth-rapingly unsustainable industry in the last few decades? It could be phased out, with great success and a brighte...

oh nevermind, you are not going to listen to me.

I am so so sorry that I offended you

Mr.Turnip

(645 posts)
57. You can't exactly "phase out" the animals without purging the population.
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:04 PM
Mar 2012

And yes the industry has grown massively in the past few decades as the human population has grown and as countries like China develop but it's not like the raising of animals for substance is a recent development.

I am listening to you, but there is a difference between listening and having my opinion changed.

jsmirman

(4,507 posts)
60. Your post is terrible, in virtually all ways
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 01:07 AM
Mar 2012

I would call you selfish, destructive, anti-environment, pro-cruelty, and a bunch of other things.

Your argument about existing cattle, pigs, etc. is stupid. It's not a serious argument. The absurd excess of numbers in animals that exists and is sustained by the food industry is a product of massive over-breeding via torture devices like gestation crates. What scenario your ridiculous "oh noes, escaped pigs rampaging around the world!!!" contemplates, it is hard to pinpoint. The world isn't all going to universally and suddenly go vegan, 100%. At best, meat eating is being phased down, and in certain cases phased out. Perhaps, with less demand, the incentive for Big Ag to over-breed, destroy the earth, and indulge in cruelty will similarly be reduced.

As to why everything you said is terrible, here are a few paragraphs that don't so much contain arguments as they contain facts. Well, there are a few opinions thrown in there:

The environmental case for eating less meat is overwhelming. Factory farmed animals consume enormous quantities of crops, metabolizing and excreting most of what they eat as environment-polluting waste. Direct consumption by human beings (a non-meat diet) feeds more humans with fewer crops, using less land. Factory farms require extraordinary amounts of water and fossil fuels, and methane emissions and water pollution are inescapable byproducts of these operations. Animals are penned in without freedom of movement, fresh air or sunlight, living in conditions that few among us could bear for a single afternoon. But one thing will escape from those barns – excrement. Massive, ghastly lagoons of pig and cattle waste regularly leak into rivers and water tables. Operations that spray “fertilizer” pollute the earth more directly, saturating, not fertilizing the land.

Regularly eating meat supports an inefficient food industry built on cruelty. For many of us who transitioned to vegetarianism and veganism there was an inescapable conclusion – if you eat pork, beef, or chicken, the odds are overwhelming that an animal was tortured on a factory farm to satisfy your craving. By 2007, four U.S. pork producers – all practitioners of factory farming – controlled 66% of the entire market for pig products. Four companies control more than 75% of the cattle market. The top two poultry companies kill more than 4 billion chickens each year, sending them off to cruel mechanical death after short, miserable lives spent in cages as wide as half an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper.

Now for something really scary: exploding pig waste foam. In Minnesota, home of ag giant, Cargill, slush like foam has been found on top of manure pits and congealed under the eaves of factory barns. The foam traps gases like methane, which has caused entire barns to explode, killing thousands of pigs and causing millions of dollars in damages. The Minnesota Pork Producers Association, among others, is funding research at the University of Minnesota to solve the foam problem.


So in short, you support more starvation, destruction of the Earth, horrifying cruelty, and exploding pig shit. Congratulations, that's quite a slate.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
59. Was this news blurb sponsored by The Olive Garden?
Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:01 PM
Mar 2012

I have to say it may be nice to eat more fish and nuts, but it's hard to beat a good steak.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
65. If it were up to me
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 08:46 AM
Mar 2012

the domestication of non-human animals wouldn't have happened, and if you wanted to kill it and eat it, you'd have to earn it. That means no guns or farms, as those make it just too easy.

As for the reality in which we live; eat what you want to eat, don't eat what you don't want to eat, and don't worry so much about when other people are going to die.

jsmirman

(4,507 posts)
67. Woo Hoo!!! Ignorance! Yeah!!!
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 08:57 AM
Mar 2012

If you read my post above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002418020#post60

(you know, the one with like, actual information)

you would see how bankrupt this viewpoint is. Factory Farming is about far more than "when other people are going to die."

People are going to do what they are going to do, but on a site where I think we're supposed to believe that we are "enlightened," people really should stop being so proud of, or at least unapologetic about being so fucking ignorant.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
71. I'm no fan of factory farming
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:55 AM
Mar 2012

Don't like zoos either. Farms and husbandry, nothing but attempts to control, to make other life outside of what it might be worth to humanity not worth something for its own sake. Agriculture has been one of the most destructive activities the human species has managed to do, as factory farms wouldn't even exist without it. The same can be said of roads. I find it very sad the way that we've increasingly tried to mold the rest of life on this planet, and the planet itself, mostly through violence as historically might has made right, to fit the narrow wants of a single species.

Jennicut

(25,415 posts)
69. I don't eat much red meat.
Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:07 AM
Mar 2012

Truthfully, the taste kind of grosses me out. When I was a kid, I was anemic. I wouldn't eat any meat. As a type 1 diabetic, I have to include some more protein as I can't eat as many carbs. I eat peanut butter, beans, some turkey and chicken. But steak, hamburgers, etc. just are not my thing. Which is just as well, as I have loads of other health issues to worry about.

 

sikorsky

(96 posts)
80. I never eat red meat
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:19 PM
Mar 2012

until after a cup of coffee or a bloody mary. Seriously, I'd rather drop dead if I couldn't have a couple steaks a week...(I am 71 and way healthier than my doctor)


RagAss

(13,832 posts)
83. I guess if I was rich I'd care about living a long life.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:29 PM
Mar 2012

By the time these fascists finish their work with Social Security and Medicare, I'll be in the streets....so who gives a fuck.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
85. Right, because all those people on the Atkins diet have dropped dead, right?
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:07 PM
Mar 2012

Newsflash, your blood cholesterol has NOTHING to do with dietary cholesterol, it is a side effect of insulin resistance caused by too many carbs in your diet.

There is so much nutritional conventional wisdom that is BS based more on grain agribusiness propaganda rather than physiological reality. Placing carbohydrates at the base of the food pyramid is based on politics, not science.

flvegan

(64,371 posts)
90. You're right. Harvard researchers and science in general be damned.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:52 AM
Mar 2012

Eat up.

I loved being "schooled" on nutrition by amateurs.

jsmirman

(4,507 posts)
92. Please, please tell him what happened to Atkins, himself
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:32 AM
Mar 2012

tell him about one of life's ultimate petard-hoistings...

jsmirman

(4,507 posts)
96. Yeah, that would be incorrect
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:53 PM
Mar 2012

not sure why you would state something so confidently that is simply wrong.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
95. I would not call most nutrition to be science.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:18 PM
Mar 2012

It's more like economics, imprecise and liable to the whims of politics.

iris27

(1,951 posts)
91. Bad methodology.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:10 AM
Mar 2012

This study used a "food frequency questionnaire" - something known in nutritionist circles to be incredibly imprecise - and sent it out once every four years for 24 years.

Moreover, the total risk of death over the course of the study was less than 1%. And the risk of death among those who claimed to eat red meat everyday (and really, who does that?)...was, wait for it...ALSO less than 1%.

Meanwhile, the average risk of death among the US population for the subjects' age range was...2.5%

So what does that tell you? Participating in a nutrition study reduces your risk of death by 67%?

No.

It tells you that the subjects in this study are not representative of the population as a whole.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
93. Yep, people are very bad at describing what they eat and how much.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:15 PM
Mar 2012

Unless they are actually counting calories and serving sizes.

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