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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThank You Edward Snowden, They Are Now On Their Knees, Begging...Well Done.
NSA leaders split on giving amnesty to Snowden
By JOHN MILLER - CBS NEWS
December 12, 2013, 7: 29 PM
Rick Ledgett is the man who was put in charge of the Snowden leak task force by Gen. Keith Alexander, who heads the NSA. The task force's job is to prevent another leak like this one from happening again. They're also trying to figure out how much damage the Snowden leaks have done, and how much damage they could still do.
Snowden, who is believed to still have access to 1.5 million classified documents he has not leaked, has been granted temporary asylum in Moscow, which leaves the U.S. with few options.
JOHN MILLER: He's already said, "If I got amnesty, I would come back." Given the potential damage to national security, what would your thought on making a deal be?
RICK LEDGETT: So, my personal view is, yes, it's worth having a conversation about. I would need assurances that the remainder of the data could be secured, and my bar for those assurances would be very high. It would be more than just an assertion on his part.
MILLER: Is that a unanimous feeling?
LEDGETT: It's not unanimous...
Link: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nsa-leaders-split-on-giving-amnesty-to-snowden/
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grasswire
(50,130 posts)Keith Alexander is against amnesty, reportedly.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
1000words
(7,051 posts)He's got them by the short curlies.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)One would be nuts to trust these people. They have no regard for honesty or the rule of law.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The police, the government can make any promise it wants. It is utterly worthless in my opinion. The government does not have to keep a contract or promise with someone it considers to be a felon.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)And the CT posse here wouldnt let us discuss his disappearance.
Marr
(20,317 posts)'electronic counter espionage' expert or something-- with a very strict 'no talking to the press' condition. That's how you really make a person disappear.
Utopian Leftist
(534 posts)is assassinate Snowden and then frame someone with a history of mental illness, for the murder. Surely the NSA has the resources to pull off such a simple hit.
Or they could find a Jack Ruby-type, suffering from suicidal "patriotism."
Must be a dozen ways they could cut his amnesty short. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)I guess that's why the US Code defines so many Felonies then?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Does every one who commits a crime get treated equally? No? Then they are not upholding the contract with humanity.
Did the Government live up to the terms of the treaties with the Native Americans? Do they do so even today? No? Then I guess a treaty isn't a contract.
Shall I continue or are you getting the point. The Government decides what the law is, and how it should be applied depending on what is convenient to the Government at the time.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)It disappoints me that more people don't see there is anything wrong with that.
I guess I can cheekily observe that that's what makes me better than them.
Dan
(3,590 posts)He can believe the government at his risk...
They do not have to negotiate in good faith. They can say anything they want to accomplish their end goal. Once he sets foot on any land mass that we have some influence or control - his ass is grass; he will disappear into one of our gulags - and only the Gods will know what happens to him.
Progressive dog
(6,934 posts)the country that spies on everyone and you're willing to keep most of the proof secret if they let you. Congratulations for demonstrating your total lack of any ethics. Your supporters must be proud for you adding blackmail to your criminal behavior.
randome
(34,845 posts)I like the subject line of this OP. So over-the-top, it fairly gleams. As if amnesty will ever happen. Snowden said he turned everything over to Greenwald so all that data is as good as gone.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)General Clapper and General Alexander as incompetent? Someone was. Someone allowed Snowden access to a lot of sensitive data. But instead of complaining about the failure in the system, you choose to continue to disparage Snowden. Chiding him for "abandoning his fiance".
Conservatives hate whistle-blowers. They love blind obedience to authoritarian leaders.
randome
(34,845 posts)This article is nothing, however. Just a vague statement by some NSA official. It's strange...disturbing?...to see DUers leap to the conclusions expressed in this thread so far. 'On their knees begging' sounds like a deep-seated wish instead of a view of reality.
The reality of it is that all that information has already been released 'in the wild'. To Greenwald. To the Guardian. Der Spiegel. And other organizations. Snowden isn't even actively leaking anything anymore and he hasn't for some time.
How we get from that state of affairs to characterizing the NSA as 'on their knees begging' is hard to understand.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
neverforget
(9,437 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)But pointing out that Snowden is an idiot who bamboozled his co-workers (I wonder how many lost their jobs because of him) and his fiance and caused international incidents all to reveal that the NSA is legally retaining copies of third-party business records.
Ninety-nine percent of everything else that has been 'revealed' has had to do with monitoring foreign communications, which is the entire reason for the NSA's existence.
I would have no problem whatsoever with outlawing the collection of metadata but right now it is not against the law for the NSA to have copies of what the telecom companies already have.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
neverforget
(9,437 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)If "Snowden is an idiot who bamboozled his co-workers",
that doesn't say much for the intelligence and competence of those employed to "protect" us.
If the "idiot" Snowden can "bamboozle" them,
just think what skilled Mata Haris can (and are) doing.
Can you at least thank the "idiot" Snowden for exposing the incompetence of our
Spy Agencies?
Kudos to the Whistle Blowers.
They are the true patriots protecting our Democracy.
Rampant government spying on its citizens and Democracy can not co-exist.
randome
(34,845 posts)Even when he/she doesn't make use of them. Snowden could easily have exposed inadequate security measures if that was his goal. But it wasn't. He was/is a loner who dreamed of being someone important.
Don't think it's worked out too well for him so far.
There is a reason even Wikileaks walked away from him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
erronis
(15,484 posts)And I do believe that what Snowden (and Manning) exposed were crimes.
Unfortunately, the criminal court that these would be brought in would also be part of the scheme - all the way to the SCOTUS. But perhaps not to the international court of law.
Cowards hide behind the cloaks of "national security". And usually these cowards are profiteering from these cloaks.
Response to randome (Reply #63)
Post removed
Titonwan
(785 posts)That's a contradiction in terms. I think yer an idiot that blindly believes everything Unca Sammy tells you to. Or want us to believe that. Take yer pick.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)
reACTIONary
(5,797 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)He fooled his coworkers into giving him their passwords. IOW, he doesn't appear to have been a very good hacker, just a smooth talker with an 'innocent lamb' look.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
loudsue
(14,087 posts)over 5,000 agencies have access to this type of information. These are corporate contractors. And a great many of them have a RIGHT and ACCESS to keep tabs on every keystroke I'm making here. That is an invasion of my privacy without a warrant and without "just cause" . Instead, we get "just because" .... <they can> .
That isn't ok with me.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)many of the people that should have been extra cautious. He worked for a supervisor. His supervisor must never have asked him what he was doing. He must have spent a lot of time getting what he got, yet he got his work done on time. Something is fishy here.
Your hatred is obsessive.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Also-- he's put us all at risk by releasing sensitive information we all totally knew about and which is old news anyway so stop talking about it!!!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)...and THAT is a sign of intelligence!
Congratulations!
Marr
(20,317 posts)So that was all bullshit, huh?
Progressive dog
(6,934 posts)but yes, the OP was bullshit. You understood that anyway.
I
Logical
(22,457 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)"LOL, doubling down, as expected. The story of the year and you fought it hourly for weeks! "
...of the constant repetition of "Snowden is a hero."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024162400
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024169842#post57
Is he still in Russia?
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Puglover
(16,380 posts)referred to Snowden as a "patriot" on Chris Hayes the other night. I'll listen to Goodman before...........well, let's just say I respect her opinion a lot.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)He said NOSense!
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Puglover
(16,380 posts)Is that sorta like saying "You Better Believe It"?
I keed I keed. 
Hope your Holidays are wonderful!
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Peace be with you, my fellow DU'er. 
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)...idiot putting peoples lives in danger didn't help either.
Running over an old lady to put a bankster in jail is about what the guy did...
Pholus
(4,062 posts)As far as I can see, the only old ladies wronged in this situation are all the old ladies whose private business is being PERMANENTLY ARCHIVED by the government in the absence of suspicion.
And certainly, no banksters have been jailed DESPITE the fact that their shady dealings must be an open book when all their communications are hoovered.
But I guess you can't jail the people enabling you when it comes right down to it, eh?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I am guessing you didnt want the curtain pulled aside. You love the comfort of not knowing what your government is doing in your name. You disparage whistle-blowers because they ruin the comfortable status-quo.
When the choice comes down to supporting those speaking truth to power or the authoritarian rulers, some here choose the rulers. I call them the Lieberman Wing of the Democratic Party.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)... I don't want someone proverbially running over an old lady to do it or put peoples lives at the NSA in danger like Der Spiegel said Snowden did
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)but in the right way." I know what you are and you aint on the side of the 99%.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Also, terrorists hate us for our freedoms, the military is fighting for your freedom, and torture helped us get Osama.
Blah blah stupid substance-free propaganda talking points. At least the unpacked boxes thing was funny.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)Der Spiegel: Snowden Released Information That Could “Endanger the Lives of NSA Workers”
Read more at http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/42213_Der_Spiegel-_Snowden_Released_Information_That_Could_Endanger_the_Lives_of_NSA_Workers#WIv08sGfb1vLtdPl.99
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)That was the whole point of releasing this information to responsible journalists rather than just throwing it up on Wikileaks uncensored like he could have.
So again, how are the leaks putting lives in danger when the publications releasing them choosing to withhold that information?
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)On a corporate server? A flash drive? Floppy disks?
As I pointed out earlier, no corporation can guarantee that those documents are safe from hackers or outright thieves. So yes, agents are conceivably endangered.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)the lives of .....", we should allow the NSA to operate without oversight. Is that what you are saying? Of course the authoritarians are going to tell us that. And some buy it hook line and sinker. Were you aware that when Snowden drives a car it COULD endanger pedestrians? We should take away his drivers license.
You just want to rationalize a reason not to look behind the curtain because you are afraid of what you will find. You are afraid that your blind "faith" has been abused. Some think it is vital that we have blind "faith" in our authoritarian leaders. I blame this absurd idea on most (not all) religious upbringing. "There are those more powerful than lowly you, and you must have "faith" in what they tell you. Do not look behind the curtain. Smite those that suggest looking behind the curtain."
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)... LESSLY putting peoples lives in more danger than necessary
I'd like all the banksters to go to jail, just not burn down puppy farms to get them their
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)dont. I am guessing you are the "let's go slow and support the status quo".
I hate to tell you that we are in a war and the lower classes are losing terribly. We cant afford your "slow".
And dont trust the word of the authoritarians regarding the danger of Snowden's releases. They are biased and not for our side. Assuming you are on our side.
Titonwan
(785 posts)than fleas on a bloodhound. This bullshit stops now- Edward Snowden owns NONE of the information he GAVE to Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. It's military grade encryption (AES 256 bit) on thumb drives that would literally take billions of years to crack code by 'brute force' decoding tactics. (Yes, there's math to this-- "As shown above, even with a supercomputer, it would take 1 billion billion years to crack the 128-bit AES key* using brute force attack. This is more than the age of the universe (13.75 billion years). If one were to assume that a computing system existed that could recover a DES key in a second, it would still take that same machine approximately 149 trillion years to crack a 128-bit AES key." http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279619)
Those of you authoritarians that claim to be 'democrats' have just revealed how much you really think about 'the people'. Not fuckin' much, methinks.
*Note: you notice he's describing '128 bit' AES- 256 bit is exponentially bigger than that! You do the math
Titonwan
(785 posts)the old lady was the banksters mom bringing an i.e.d. into the local homeless shelter to rid capitalists from moochers and takers? Would that justify droning her ass into valhalla? Enquiring minds don't wanna know.
I'm a firm believer that 'ignorance is bliss' when reading your scrawlings.
gulliver
(13,205 posts)...without at least trying to prevent it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I'm fascinated.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)He probably ate them too! Another Jeffrey Dahmer.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)They tried that with Manning as well, and it's even more bullshit now than then.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)It is completely at odds with historical documentation.
The truth of the matter is, it's the national security apparatus that is responsible for death and suffering. It simply is not possible to quantify the damage done in the world by the US government, in the name of national security. From the toppling of democracy in Iran and Guatemala, to the proxy wars in Afghanistan and central America, to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia, to conspiring to invade Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan -- all rationalized as important to national security -- it is the implementation of US foreign policy, that has left a river blood in its wake, which is the very nature of what whistle-blowing is supposed to reveal.
You can't point to a single victim of Edward Snowden. Claims that he has killed anyone, are hyperbolic and illogical in the extreme. It is truly fascinating that someone can concoct such a bizzaro-world reality from the available facts.
gulliver
(13,205 posts)I'll grant your authority to determine that my comment is "completely at odds with historical documentation" could be well founded. It is an honor to engage with an heir to Edward Gibbon.
A bunch of Snowden's trusting co-workers were hurt when he talked them out of their passwords to raid the information they were entrusted with. The people who hired him, trusted him, and supervised him all have lifelong blots on their careers. Also, American technology companies reportedly lost billions due to paranoia raised by Snowden. That's jobs. That's people suffering.
Then there are the people who are (or were) cooperating with the new "law enforcement" approach to terrorism under Obama and the Democrats. How would you feel about Edward Snowden if you were a foreign agent providing information to the NSA? Maybe a little like a North Korean moderate I would guess.
What other national security approach have we seen used to guard against terrorism in very recent history? I believe it involved a lot of deaths. But I'm no authority.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)The Global War on Terror really does cause death, and lots of it (mostly to women and children, of course).
But someone at Booz Allen Hamilton lost their job, you say? That's just terrible.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)that may challenge the state. What ever we do, we cant look behind the curtain, because it might endanger someone.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)if it means 99% of the data conveniently never sees the light of day...
And does the NSA even have the legal power to 'grant' amnesty??
randome
(34,845 posts)From what I can see, anyways.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)He'd be smart to let everyone know up front that there's no 'deal' to be made with the U.S. (or any country for that matter)...
The moment he starts 'negotiating', he's done for...
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)But this is the funniest thread, ever.....the rejoicing over Fast Eddie getting a plea deal.
blue neen
(12,336 posts)IMHO, there's nothing to cheer about concerning anything about this whole fiasco: The NSA screwed up big time and spied on Americans and others, Snowden leaked classified information to foreign governments that could have endangered some American lives.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)If the citizens of this country had any spine at all, these revelations should have brought down the entire plutocratic duopoly.
But it didn't. It didn't endanger anyone in the idiotic meme you are pushing either.
blue neen
(12,336 posts)I'm not pushing any meme, "idiotic" or otherwise. I stated my opinion that I didn't like what the NSA did but didn't like how Snowden handled it.
So, who is pushing a meme? Anyone who doesn't see things exactly the way you want them to?
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)They vetted this information very carefully, so as NOT to hurt anyone. You obviously don't have your facts straight. I don't know of one undercover agent that Snowden outted and neither do you, yet we have two neocons, Cheney and Libby, who did it for revenge, running around free to blather their lies in this country, and we've got Snowden who told the American people that they were being spied on, who's in exile. Until something is done in terms of justice for them, I don't think anyone can say a word about Snowden deserving some kind of punishment.
blue neen
(12,336 posts)I didn't say a word about Snowden outting undercover agents. Why are you saying that I did?
No mention was made about Snowden re punishment.
We are both entitled to our opinions concerning Snowden's handling of the release of information. In this thread I got called an idiot, told I don't have my facts straight, and accused of being a Fox News follower just for stating that opinion. That's really sad. Posters who react in such a way don't stand a great chance of changing my mind.
For the record, we are in agreement on everything you stated about Cheney and Libby.
Adieu...got a Christmas tree to decorate.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)"IMHO, there's nothing to cheer about concerning anything about this whole fiasco: The NSA screwed up big time and spied on Americans and others, Snowden leaked classified information to foreign governments that could have endangered some American lives."
This crap about "leaking classified information to foreign governments" is bunk. And it HAS been debunked. Snowden told the world what our government was doing to it's own citizens and to theirs, including spying on their leaders. What the NSA was doing, and is STILL doing, is wrong, and the fact that Snowden pointed it out is called "whistleblowing," and I, for one, am damned glad he blew the whistle on them. So should you be.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Nothing will stop the train that's coming because Americans are either too shocked or too witless to stand up to it.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)'foreign governments' that 'endangered American lives'. I have never seen or heard of Snowden leaking anything to any foreign government.
But I'm interested to see where you got this from, the only place I've seen anything like that has come from Faux News type tabloid media.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609.html
All this information is now on the hard drives and servers of The Guardian and Der Spiegel. It's clear that the NSA failed to keep this information out of the hands of a smooth-talking contractor.
How much easier will it be for someone in a corporate office to make copies of these documents, too?
That's why it's laughable to me for some idiot at the NSA to even use the word 'amnesty'. This information is already spread far and wide.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)In fact the articles specifically reiterate that point in explaining why they're only releasing the bits that have been made public
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
jmowreader
(50,603 posts)You don't have to leak information to any one foreign government when you give it to a newspaper and they publish it to the entire world.
Thanks to Snowden and his so-called heroism (more like blowing shit way out of proportion in my estimation; Snowden revealed in his first huge scoop that Fort Meade reads your phone bill) any terrorists we might have been snooping on have gone from e-mail and telephones to invisible ink and face-to-face meetings. Thanks a LOT, dude.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)... the US gov surveying like this I'd start using an abacus quick
jmowreader
(50,603 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the American people have a right to to the Press. And here's a solution for those who have secrets they are desperate to keep, don't do wrong, don't betray the trust placed in you by the people, and you won't have to worry about your secrets being exposed.
Most of us manage to abide by the law every day. It's not hard, the rules are clearly laid out, we have some great guidelines that demonstrate how to protect this country without violating the rights of innocent people, or killing them or torturing them.
Clearly none of this has helped to protect us at all, as Diane Feinstein tells (in an odd attempt to defend it all) that we are in 'more danger than ever'. I would agree, but right here in the US where children are being murdered on a regular basis, where Americans are dying by the thousands from lack of Health Care etc.
But if she is right, it's way past time to drop these failed policies and start reviewing WHY this country is in MORE not LESS danger since all these policies went into overdrive over a decade ago.
WowSeriously
(343 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)The Think Tanks have been busy lately with all the Whistle Blowers they have to try to demonize and Journalists. Apparently the talking points didn't work well enough to stop the long line of Whistle Blowers we've had, thankfully, over the past decade.
It will be interesting to see what they come up with next.
The truth would be so much easier. But no one pays for that.
WowSeriously
(343 posts)And sadly, you don't make much off of truth. But the lie is ever changing and always entertaining.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)In fact, it fails totally. For very obvious reasons.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)I suppose the earth shattering new stuff is the stuff not yet released, and that likely has nothing to do with domestic surveillance (as most of the recent information has focused on foreign surveillance).
Marr
(20,317 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)They truly thought that would bring about their shared dream of a Libertarian Revolution.
It's been a yawn-fest ever since. "Oh, my God, look! They're monitoring foreign communications! Bad NSA! Bad!"
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
WowSeriously
(343 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...since we know these mofos are never going to change. And given the duplicity that these documents have revealed, why would anyone ever trust these assholes?
- George Santayana spins in his grave......
K&R
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I don't think he'd give up all the documents anyway. Clearly Greenwald still has stuff that has not be released. My bet is he's only released a small amount of what he has. Any deal Snowden would make with the government couldn't cover what Greenwald has already. Those are already going to be made public eventually. As soon as he finds his way out of Russia to a country with no extradition he'll continue to leak more. The only way a deal would be made is if he stopped leaking stuff, which isn't going to happen. There is no way a deal will be made.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)a real piece of work. Very comforting, knowing that this is the bastard in charge. Jeeze.
Now I'll have to watch the rest of Miller's interview on Sunday, despite my repugnance for him and all the rest of the scum behind 60 Minutes. CBS baited the news watchers on Thursday night, by running that video...a lowdown commercial preview of an unprincipled program.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)fine, moral people.
Which makes you wonder why we are being treated to this Kabuki theater.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)How about instead of all this, they investigate who broke the law, and do their jobs for the people, instead of, once again, protecting the guilty.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)
xchrom
(108,903 posts)
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Zorra
(27,670 posts)NSA, Inc. and the US government fix every single nefarious, dishonest, unethical, and illegal thing that the released information would expose.
He also needs to, of course, have several failsafe backups that would be released if the corporate/state harmed him, and as insurance to make sure the corporate/state stops doing all the rotten stuff it does.
In other words, give me amnesty and I won't blow the whistle, provided I am not harmed, and provided you fix all the nasty shit that I would blow the whistle on you for. If you don't cooperate, it all gets released.
This way he stays safe, and his actions continue to have a positive, constructive result.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Eddie gets to narc as a "co-operating witness" is pretty goddamn funny. Because although it's being dressed up as "amnesty" the fact is that the charges in federal court aren't subject to "amnesty." They are subject to a federal plea deal. And all federal plea deals require co-operation. So if Eddie gets anything...he's getting a federal plea deal.
Look--the very fact that you are posting NSA officials' performances on 60 minutes as 'credible' is hysterically funny. Rick Ledgett? Now you believe an NSA official? You are going to watch a performance on "60 Minutes" of two top intelligence officials and believe anything that comes out of their mouths?
I have no idea why the NSA is doing this performance on "60 Minutes" tonight, but I am going to bet that it isn't for Mr. Snowden's benefit.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/03/edward-snowden-clemency_n_4209498.html
Things change, but given the rest of Ledgett's statement, it seems a personal and hypothetical view.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)routine being played out by the NSA officials.... but I guess that's the cynic in me.
It tells you quite a bit about Eddie's fans... the same news organization that produced the Benghazi Lara Logan mess is suddenly credible because it gives some 'good' news about Fast Eddie.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Snowden hasn't released anything groundbreaking. Hell, NOT ONE of his revelations even reveal anything illegal.
The only thing that's happened is that alot of countries loudly cleared their throats as they tried to pretend that they weren't also spying on their neighbors. Relations between the US and Germany were quite bad (on the surface, at least) and relations between Australia and Indonesia have taken a spectacular turn for the worse as a result of Snowden's leaks. The Indonesian government has gone to great lengths to ratchet up their anger over this incident and have even vigorously denied that they spy themselves -- a claim that absolutely NO ONE takes seriously.
Besides allowing certain world leaders to bang drums and harrumph as though they aren't doing the same thing themselves, what the hell has all of this been for? Has it just been an effort to stir the global poop? To start the Revolution that the Libertarians have been hoping for? I honestly have no idea what the end game is here besides exciting a small (and steadily shrinking) coterie of uninformed and naive people to get very excited about something that has been happening since the days of Caesar.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)where we are: People are pushing for awards, clemency and recognition for Snowden more than for any change to policy.
Greenwald Mocks Time For Person Of The Year Selection...(updated)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024162400
Have you changed your mind about Snowden?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024180175
Number23
(24,544 posts)All of this seems like merely an effort to make the US and other countries look bad while selling lots of books and reaping tons of awards in the process. Snowden says that he's happy about the "conversation" that he's started, but considering that he has not revealed one illegal act and there were already tons of people upset about and protesting the Patriot Act, what are we supposed to be "conversing" about????
TNLib
(1,819 posts)
grantcart
(53,061 posts)I would love to see Mr. Snowden's reaction to this news, especially the "very high bar" and not accepting his word for it.
Mr. Snowden is probably wondering about all of the wonderful legal advice he received before he took his actions.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Behind this article is a strong hint that these perverted little trolls actually live down an even deeper, dark and twisted little hole than we even know.
This summer, it wasn't too hard to piece together the core situation from the non-denial denials, the doublespeak and just comparing the capabilities of existing computer hardware to the size of the data handling problem. And despite all the vicious criticism directed at them it turns out that the tinfoil hatters pretty much had the NSA's number.
But what could be worse that the NSA still wants to hide?
I think Greenwald has been publishing in a logical order here.
Part I: Describe the capabilities of the system to set up for....
Part II: A description of how the system HAS been used.
The utility of the system, it's successes and failures (Part II), have largely not been discussed. NSA talked late summer about "fifty four" terror plots being disrupted though that number seems to not stand up to scrutiny. But I've seen nothing else.
But if the system is such a turkey, why fight soooooo hard for it? I figure it's because 9/11 was an excuse to build a system that had lots of NON-terrorism applications and those are the ones we actually wanted.
I see two broad classes of scandals that might be the topic for stories in Part II:
First off, potential stories that would hurt the US internationally:
1) The surveillance has been used to manipulate the markets for US gain.
2) The surveillance has been used to suppress dissent through blackmail
either for US interests or as a payoff in return for favors.
3) The surveillance has been used to manipulate elections
for the benefit of US friendly interests.
4) The surveillance has been used to manipulate diplomacy where
the US has not been a direct party.
Those things would not seem to be huge scandals domestically though,
because we expect these things to be done in our name.
However, I bet it would piss a lot of Americans off if it came out that this had been used domestically:
1) The surveillance has been used to give unfair advantages to
one US company over another.
2) Domestic dissent has been suppressed through blackmail.
3) US politicians have been manipulated through information from this program.
4) US elections have been predicted or influenced.
5) The personal abuses of the system are much larger than
have already been revealed?
6) It has been used to influence the outcome of trials in the legal system.
I freely admit I know nothing other than what I read online, and I am certainly glad I do not, so I can just pop some popcorn and wait to see what the 2014 TV season brings...
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Your outline is very plausible,
especially if one asks, "Cui Bono"?
DURec for your post,
and demonstration of critical thinking.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Are sticking to a tightly defined narrow-scope "gameplan" on what gets published and when, which is one of the many problems i've had personally with their handling of the whole thing because I know for a fact that they're doing this at the expense of potentially much more explosive stories...
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 02:28 PM - Edit history (1)
For six months, revelation after revelation has been greeted with the words "why are you shocked, EVERYBODY knew this" from the apologists.
As a pure spectator, I am simply wondering if the release pattern is the prosecutor's setup before a knockout.
If the nasty stuff I have mused about were true and came out immediately, the obvious counterargument would be to concentrate on the position that it is "too outlandish to be believable." It might have just blown over as the debate centered on technical details rather than the force of the explosive stories.
But by starting the discussion on the technical details and letting the NSA's proxies DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU as they try to minimize the impact of the technical bits the counterargument is removed from the table.
Any explosive releases will be debated on their merits, as we all have come to agreement that it is possible.
Again, hypothetical but logical.
Dear NSA staff and my friends at Booz Allen:
Sorry, I heard the morale is down over there since I left last summer.
That's a fucking shame--hope my speech next week cheers you up.
Happy Holidays!!!
--Ed Snowden
rtracey
(2,062 posts)скатертью дорога, тем лучше, хорошо
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Good riddance to bad rubbish, you fucking fascists at the NSA?
G_j
(40,372 posts) WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts) MADem
(135,425 posts)LEDGETT: It's not unanimous...
Bit of a leap, from one guy's stated view to "got 'em on their knees."
He's no Layla.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)By the guy who is investigating the dastardly fellow Snowden, is interesting. Who is making the statement is interesting.
An example. A lunatic on the street corner is shouting that space aliens are about to invade us and we need to prepare to fight them. Initial and almost certainly the correct response, he is a nutter, a lunatic who should be locked up before he hurts someone.
The head of the US Space Defense Agency goes on the Television and announces that they have detected and are watching the approach of unknown alien vessels that appear to be spreading out to invade the planet.
In both cases, one guy is doing the talking. But one guy is probably a nutter, the other would be in the position to know. In this case, the guy in charge of investigating the Snowden debacle is the one saying that it would be worth considering. This isn't some random nutter on a corner shouting and waving a homemade sign that says the end is near. This would be someone in a position to know.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think old Eddie is a turned asset, myself. I think he's been working for Russia since he worked in Japan, maybe even earlier.
I think Eddie isn't striking a blow for freedom, he's been well paid by Pootie. Pootie's not going to let us know that, though, in the (unlikely) event that he can be put in play back here, and maybe lie to us about what he actually gave up.
Eddie, I think, is Pootie's greatest achievement. And it's a helluva one, too, from Vladimir's perspective, certainly. Well played, Poot, well played!
He can always be dragged back home by people going on TV and averring that amnesty is in play....and then, once home, charged with something else.
I think Eddie needs to study that Russian real good. He's home now.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)he doesn't take that deal.
Vox Moi
(546 posts)The Ledgett is admitting that there is much more and that it is damaging enough for the NSA to at least consider amnesty.
That statement alone is enough to prevent Snowden from accepting a deal like that because it would change his status from whistleblower to accomplice.
If you feel that the whistle blowing was justified then you must feel that the importance of the matter transcends all loyalty to the hand that feeds. You have cut the cord. You can't go home again.
Unconditional Amnesty is the only deal Snowden can accept without undermining what he felt was necessary to do.
gulliver
(13,205 posts)Seriously, thanks for laying bare the feelings motivating the Snowden fan club. It's what I thought.
snot
(10,549 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm sorry, folks, but Snowden did *nothing* beneficial. In fact, he did a lot of harm by putting innocent U.S. personnel at risk and by giving this info he stole to Russia and China. Think about that: our two biggest rivals, and that's who he gave this stuff to. That my friends, isn't whistleblowing, but fucking espionage. And in the middle of an important summit as well.
Honestly, WillyT, those of us who understand the truth are disappointed in you; you, as a fellow liberal should know better than to fall for shit like this. 
WillyT
(72,631 posts)America, to me, is an idea... NOT a valuable piece of real estate with some large well-to-do corporations in charge, and a bunch of semi-useful people willing to work there.
I fight for the America I was taught about in school, not for this fucking authoritarian, corrupt, bordering on fascist, thing we are turning ourselves into.
And taking down the secretive oligarchy is ALWAYS OK WITH ME.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Look at what he did with that information. Look at his prior background, his support for the Pauls particularly......this man was no hero, Willy. And, I'm sorry to say, you're a sucker for believing the hype.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
marmar
(77,131 posts)Hmmmm.......
Puglover
(16,380 posts)
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Even though the chances of punishing murderers that work for the government is minimal.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)He will give Snowden a full pardon.
lordsummerisle
(4,651 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Just in case "we the people" lie. I'm assuming the information he has would also rest with someone else.
That's the only way I'd make a deal with the NSA's "blink".
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Reuters: "Ledgett said he knew of no U.S. government move toward reaching any kind of a legal deal with Snowden, a decision that would be up to the Justice Department."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/13/us-usa-security-nsa-idUSBRE9BC0YZ20131213
So it looks like Eddie is going to get that white Christmas he always dreamed of.
