General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAre your posessions worth more than a human life?
Last edited Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)
I just want to know who the sociopaths are here
19 votes, 4 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
Hell yeah! You don\'t touch my stuff or Imma KILL YOU! | |
4 (21%) |
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No, inanimate objects are not equal to human life. | |
15 (79%) |
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4 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
JustAnotherGen
(33,058 posts)I would hesitate to give someone holding a gun to my head my dad's last pair of eye glasses. Sorry - but I lost him two years ago and the sentimental value on my night stand is just that . . . Sentimental reminder of value to no one but me.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Guessing the worth of a life is like a bell curve in some ways.
And what the going rate on the stock market is. Not to mention prevailing wages (Some wealthy have toilets that may be worth more than you make in a life time).
Not to mention supply and demand, often hear we have too many humans on the planet, so we are going for cheap right now.
Ohio Joe
(21,894 posts)Not on purpose but through stupidity... She left a candle burning... Sheesh. I suffered just about total loss and she not only had no insurance but was not worth a lawsuit as she had nothing. I walked away without a grudge and am still working to re-build (years later and I am still arguing with my insurance company).
In my mind... It put a completely new light on the gun nuts that want to kill people for theft. Fuckin crazy if you ask me. Stuff is not worth a persons life.
Ohio Joe
(21,894 posts)At Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:40 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Is your "stuff" worth more than a human life?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023707423
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
"I just want to know who the sociopaths are in here"? WTF? Is there any other purpose to this post other than to troll?
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:47 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: When someone has broken into one's home, the resident does not have the luxury of knowing if the bugler plans physical harm or no. This poll is trolling using black and white thinking. The board is better than that.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Taverner... A troll... heh, too funny
Leave. Ohio Joe
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,544 posts)...over the "sociopath" remark but I decided to PM instead. Agreed Taverner is not a troll. Abrasive maybe but not a troll.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)I am an asshole who embraces empathy
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,544 posts)Really??? I'd have never guessed.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)reflection
(6,286 posts)Annoying but harmless.
GeorgeGist
(25,387 posts)malaise
(275,661 posts)That must have been devastating
Ohio Joe
(21,894 posts)I was laid off from my job several months before it happened... Ever try and go to an interview when all you own is a pair of shorts and a t-shirt? I can tell you it does not go over very well. No income, no place to live... Nothing to even sell to try and get some money. Plus, at my age (now 50) and with my job history, I can't even get a job at a 7/11... They look at me and tell me they can't pay me what I used to make and pass on me... It's fucked up.
malaise
(275,661 posts)We don't really imagine that happening. For some strange reason I always have one set of clothes in the trunk of my car with an extra pair of shoes. I started doing that decades ago after a neighbor fell asleep with her stove on - I mean the entire building was smelling - one of the guys managed to put a stick through a window and turn off the main switch for her stove - that woke her up.
We'd never be able to replace our stuff and it would be the photos and old stuff that we'd miss most.
Oakenshield
(626 posts)Ask a more practical one. One that can be applied better to real life circumstances. But if you must pigeon-hole me into a category, then no, there's nothing in my possession I would consider more valuable than a human life.
Igel
(35,895 posts)Is my "stuff" worth more than a human life? Sure. If the person stealing my stuff is in my living room at 3 am when my family and I are home.
Is it legal to set up a booby trap to kill somebody when you're not home? No.
How about this: Somebody holds me up at gunpoint. If I could think him dead, would his death be worth my wallet? Then again, he might kill me by accident. He might kill the next guy. He might kill me on purpose if he's angry that I don't carry cash. So it's not "is his life worth my wallet?"--that's not a reasonable way of putting it. It puts the entire onus on the motive we impute to him or that he would claim if confronted.
At some point it's not just your "stuff" that's at issue. It's also respect for laws--and if that erodes, at least some lives will also be lost.
Then again, we could rephrase this. "Is rape justification for killing somebody?"
Or we could adopt a proportionality requirement. "Those 10 men are killing my wife. Is that one life worth killing those 10?"
Odd, defending those who defy the social order by calling those who demand respect for it "sociopaths." Rather turns the definition on its head.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)If someone is threatening to kill your family, yes, I can see your familiy's or even YOUR life being comparable to the other, and self-defense is a good thing.
However, if you are alone in your home, you hear a burglar and you come out to see somebody running off with your stereo out the door. You have a gun. It is loaded. You have a clear shot at the guy running out the door.
Do you shoot or not?
Remember, he only has your stereo (or car, or some other McGuffin)
furious
(202 posts)except in maybe Texas, you're going to be charged with a crime.
Running away means they're no longer a threat and you can't use deadly force.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Awww I don't get to kill him
You would be surprised how many cops look the other way when that happens
furious
(202 posts)I'm sworn to uphold the law, not break it.
No sane person ever WANTS to kill someone, some times people are put in situations where there is no other option, but a burglar running away? That's not even defensible.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)furious
(202 posts)And this cop wouldn't look the other way FYI.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)furious
(202 posts)LAPD or LASD have nothing to do with my department.
You alluded that I would be bummed out if I didn't get the chance to kill a burglar, I ask again, what leads you to that conclusion?
You think all cops are like that? You would be sorely disappointed, most cops don't ever want to shoot anyone, much less kill someone.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Why else would they buy a gun?
furious
(202 posts)But I'm not going to get drawn into that debate.
I know dozens upon dozens of civilian gun owners, not a one of them salivates at shooting someone.
Where do you get your information?
Did your dad salivate at the thought of shooting someone? If he did, then he had no business being a cop.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)qazplm
(3,626 posts)never will be, but that comment is just amazingly stupid.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Because that's what guns do
It's amazing how certain some people are.
spin
(17,493 posts)Of course it can be argued that pepper spray can be an effective deterrent against even a charging bear.
SHOOT OR SPRAY? THE BEST WAY TO STOP A CHARGING BEAR
While many gun proponents remain adamant that firearms offer better protection against a charging bear than pepper spray, a growing body of scientific research suggests otherwise
By: NICK HEIL
Imagine: Youre on a backpacking trip in Alaska, bushwhacking along an overgrown trail, whenhey now!youre up close and personal with a 400-pound griz. You, A) turn screaming and bolt past your buddies; B) unshoulder your .30/06 and level it between said grizs eyes; or C) quick-draw your hip-holstered canister of pepper spray.
If you picked A, you just made the bears dinner menu. If youre leaning toward B, youre probably a bear-country veteran with a lot of faith in, and probably decent skill with, firearms. If you went with C you may be among the converted who believe a growing body of research suggesting that non-lethal deterrents arent just a feel-good alternative for animal-loving liberals, but a field-tested defense strategy backed up by hard data. Such claims arent without merit, or controversy. But while everyone from veteran guides to Second Amendment zealots has sounded off against the superiority of spray over guns, a survey of recent studies only reinforces the arguments in favor of pepper spray.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/nature/Shoot-or-Spray.html?page=all
Many people own firearms because they enjoy target shooting. For someone who is unfamiliar with firearms, it is hard to understand that target shooting can be a challenging sport that takes years to master. I've enjoyed target shooting handguns for over 40 years and have sent many thousands and thousands of rounds downrange to punch holes in paper targets. I've also enjoyed loading my own ammunition and tailoring the rounds to the individual handguns I own in order to find the most accurate load for each.
Of course a firearm can be used for self defense against a human attacker.
My mother was walking home after getting off a bus in a fairly rural area of Pennsylvania in the 1920s when she was rushed by a man who had been hiding behind some bushes. Fortunately she had a small revolver in her purse and was able to fire two shots over her attacker's head. He ran. Had she not have been armed I might not be posting here today.
My daughter also stopped an intruder who was breaking into our Tampa home by pointing a revolver at him as he was forcing the sliding glass door to our kitchen open. He also ran. No shots were fired.
I have absolutely no desire to ever have to shoot another person but assuming that I can grab a firearm in time, I will do so rather than suffer serious injuries that will put me in a hospital for a long period of time or six feet under. There is absolutely nothing wrong with defending yourself against an extremely dangerous attacker as long as the force you use is appropriate for the situation. Of course I hope and pray that I never find myself in such a situation and realistically the chances are that I never will.
I'm sure that some gun owners do "salivate" shooting another person. They probably do not realize that this is a life changing event and can cause significant psychological problems even if your actions are totally justified. Shooting another person is the last thing a knowledgeable and sane person ever wishes to do. A wise man avoids violent confrontations if possible and is willing to walk away from a bad situation even if it makes him look and feel like a coward.
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)This poster has another post that posits anyone who owns a handgun has decided to kill someone the first chance they get. Presenting evidence of gun owners who have the opportunity shoot and decide not to messes up their rant.
furious
(202 posts)Thanks.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Because obviously, you disagree with me
I don't think anyone is worth more than any other
It's called egalitarianism
Which clearly, you are against
furious
(202 posts)trying to harm me or my family, otherwise, everyone's life is worth just as much as the next one.
Where are you getting these ideas about what I think?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Whole different scenario.
furious
(202 posts)That's why I can't figure out where you're getting these ideas about what I believe.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)... in his very own mind. He states that he knows for a fact that he knows what is in the minds of ALL gun owners, and that's just it. Take it for what it's worth.
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)furious
(202 posts)Hardly go there, I have no desire to get embroiled in the 2A debate, but I'll take a gander at it.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)But if I am home and he enters then that is a different story. .. coopetate i will not. I would not shed a tear for a criminal who dies while robbing an occupied residence
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Ask any year one law school student.
As long as there is a clear warning posted -- very clear, very short -- and the property being protected is ones's own residence (not a business or rental property), then one can protect one's own house with a lethal booby traps.
The controlling SCOTUS ruling goes back to Iowa (1840s?), and although modified, it still holds mostly true.
furious
(202 posts)but if you attempt to harm me or any members of my family, then there will be a problem.
JVS
(61,935 posts)I'm not going to value someone's life more than they do.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)I'll give you the same scenario
If someone is threatening to kill your family, yes, I can see your familiy's or even YOUR life being comparable to the other, and self-defense is a good thing.
However, if you are alone in your home, you hear a burglar and you come out to see somebody running off with your stereo out the door. You have a gun. It is loaded. You have a clear shot at the guy running out the door.
Do you shoot or not?
Remember, he only has your stereo (or car, or some other McGuffin
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)that is against the law. CCW permits come with training, never brandish and only draw and shoot when a life is in danger.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)does that mean my animals are stuff?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)I have a used toothpick here that I would save before quite a few people.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Seriously
And I think he's totally fucking evil
But after saving him, I'd have some choice words
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)I would defend her because she is like my child. If I had a weapon, I would use it.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)"My" air is worth a life, but someone one would have to attack me to take it. Someone's insulin may be worth a life.
If the object's absence causes death, then I think it is worth a life.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I just wanted to be honest about the exception I perceived in my vote.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)BUT, if the country drug store is down the ways, then no
Robb
(39,665 posts)Good heavens. Here's a hint: if you feel you've got to parse and answer here, you have -- and are -- lost.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)and therefore killing the thief is justified.
Robb
(39,665 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,725 posts)and giving nothing in exchange. Is the thief's life worth being made homeless? I'm going to say probably not to me, I've been there and am willing to literally fight not to have another run at it.
Is the thief's life my ability to get to work and provide for my own living? Again, probably not to me.
I guess the answer depends on circumstances and I don't apologize for saying so. Excess and insured stuff? No. The difference between the prospects of my ability to live and thrive? No and I'm not a bit sorry that I'm not going to allow food to be taken out of my mouth or to lose my shelter or what I need to make a living because some fucker just wants it and thinks they have the might or craftiness to take it for their own benefit. No one has any right to put another at risk of livelihood and home, they are surely taking their chances when their actions push another to an extreme.
This is a capitalist society, to allow someone to willfully make you destitute when you have the capability to prevent it is suicidal so one cannot be a sociopath for doing what is in their power to prevent such a pass.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Yes, my life is worth much more than someone who is trying to take my life.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Stupid question.
Got any more?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)You would be surprised how many here are salivating at the idea of killing someone
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I don't believe there is a SINGLE person here who is "salivating" at the idea of killing ANYONE.
Where do you get such an asinine notion? Point me to a SINGLE statement that says without equivocation that a DUer is SALIVATING at the notion of killing someone, ANYONE, for ANY reason.
I got $10 says you can't, or won't.
furious
(202 posts)kcr
(15,484 posts)because of the time they earned to buy them qualifies. Because that's just beyond nutty. And there were at least a couple of those before I got to your post here.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)sarisataka
(20,454 posts)as there are some rare inanimate objects, usually medical, that are the equivalent to life. They would be worth protecting.
Other stuff, no, not important.
The unspoken factor- coming upon said thief I do not know his mind. If he does anything but retreat I may have to act. I cannot wait until he kills me to determine he is there for more than stuff.
jmowreader
(51,166 posts)If your abode is invaded by a person with a gun, there is a better-than-even chance that person will kill everyone in the premises to eliminate witnesses.
Here's the real question: Is the life of a criminal worth more than the life of your whole family?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)The vast majority of burglars are unarmed.
But keep up that NRA fantasy...it will help keep fear alive.
And if there is one thing we need more of, it's fear
jmowreader
(51,166 posts)The difference between a burglar and a home invader is a burglar breaks into a house while the owner is away, a home invader breaks in while the owner is home.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)There wasn't a whole lot of thought put into it. I'm amazed at how many people will answer such an obvious push poll. This poll will tell you nothing about anyone.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Unless you need the "stuff" to survive.
NightWatcher
(39,353 posts)So you had better just stay off the property because I won't ask your intentions. Maybe if you pin a note to your clothes, the police who respond to remove your body from the premises will be able to tell if you came for stuff.
Here's a better plan, as the kiddies say, "don't start none, won't be none".
Response to Taverner (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
gopiscrap
(24,102 posts)Response to gopiscrap (Reply #46)
furious This message was self-deleted by its author.
H2O Man
(74,834 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)or any other firearm for that matter?
Ruby the Liberal
(26,235 posts)Imma turn 'em inside out with my bare hands and then eat a sandwich over the body.
furious
(202 posts)Ok, that one is a gut buster. We feel the same way about our birds.
sarisataka
(20,454 posts)The cats would slice him like deli meat and the dog would have it cleaned up in under ten minutes.
irisblue
(33,792 posts)There is 'more stuff' I can get. Touch my family, hurt my cats or dogs...well.
Taverner why are you asking this?
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)I'd kill any one of you for a Klondike bar....
furious
(202 posts)Shrek
(4,061 posts)And what stuff?
NutmegYankee
(16,284 posts)But taking the long historical view, nearly all human conflict through the centuries has been over "stuff".
Taverner
(55,476 posts)and an Anarchist
Historical Materialism
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,544 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)Would you kill someone not to save your own life (or someone else's life) but just to avoid getting beaten?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Rather than shooting them
Because I do not own, nor will I ever, own a gun
If I need a gun to survive, then I am in the wrong place
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)"HEY YOU MOTHERFUCKER! I CAN SEE YOUR FUCKING FACE!!!"
<the derp perp runs>
furious
(202 posts)I'm not suggesting every woman arm themselves, that's their choice, but we teach woman to carry defensive tools, pepper spray, whistles, keys, certain defensive moves, like kicking a guy in the nuts, still fingers to the throat/eyes.
I have no qualms about a woman making the decision to carry a gun for self defense, but learn to use it and be ready to accept the consequences of using it, both physically and mentally.
flvegan
(64,526 posts)My home is my "stuff" as are my animals (by law, they are property and therefore are "stuff" .
Guess I'm a sociopath. Nice poll.
Logical
(22,457 posts)flvegan
(64,526 posts)with your pets inside...just a mislead idiot, huh?
Okay. Speaking of mislead idiots, whatever. Lost most of us with your response quoting "I think"
Because you don't, it seems.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)It is glib to say that a human life has more "worth" than an object, but that is not the same as saying that it is always wrong to kill to protect property.
Would a community kill in defense of their municipal agricultural irrigation system, if need be? Of course.
Say Germany in 1916 or 1939 had interdicted all American cargo vessels, removed all the people on board and then sunk the ships. Would the loss of all American exports, and all the ships carrying it, have constituted only crimes against property, and thus be outside the logic of lethal force?
And so on.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)But nobody's life is worth any possession I have.
LostOne4Ever
(9,556 posts)Yes there are possessions that I own that have such sentimental value to me that I would risk my life for them.
No, there is no possession that I own that I would be willing to kill another person over.
Texasgal
(17,137 posts)back in the early 90's. The asshole stole my purse with all the money I had at the time and a check book ( which he tried to use later) even my car keys. I was devastated and very scared, It took me years to get over the feeling of victimization and fear.
I am not sure I could shoot or kill anyone, but I look back on that day and I wish that I had fought back harder than I did. I dropped my purse and let him take it all without a word from me.
It wasn't so much "my stuff" it was my peace of mind that the asshole took from me.
furious
(202 posts)your possessions aren't worth your life.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)She is a 70 year old Chinese friend of my wife's that owns and runs an Asian fish market in our town. A week ago last Thursday two young perps came into her shop to steal all the money in her cash register. Being who she is, she resisted, and fought back with a Chinese cleaver. They took it away from her, cut her badly, and beat the crap out of her face and apparently smashed her head on the concrete floor. Another customer found her unconscious about a half hour later and called 911.
She has been in intensive care with a concussion for 9 days. She was in a coma for five days. She will be moved to a regular ward tomorrow. My wife says her face is all blue and purple and only one eye will open. She is still not totally coherent.
Knowing Fong, she would do exactly the same thing again. She is not going to allow someone to steal the fruits of her work without a fight. I suspect next time she will fight harder with the cleaver. Some people are just constitutionally unable to give up their stuff.
furious
(202 posts)We teach that unless you see something that would lead you to believe that your life is in mortal danger, give up your wallet/purse, those can be replaced, but, it you truly believe that the perp is going to harm you no matter what, fight back, you've got nothing to lose.
Most burglars/robbers don't want anything to do with someone who looks like they can defend themselves, that's another technique we teach, look confident, don't look like a victim, most times, a perp will move on looking for someone more vulnerable.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)If it is a possession necessary to the continuation of my life or another's, yes.
I think you are being hypocritical here - unless you have sold everything you own that is not absolutely necessary to sustain your own life or the lives of your family, and given the funds raised to the starving around the world, or those who die from lack of medical care, in fact YOU DO BELIEVE YOUR POSSESSIONS ARE WORTH MORE THAN A HUMAN LIFE.
I personally am not a hypocrite. I know I am doing wrong because I have money in the bank when other people are starving. I give some of it away, because I know I am doing wrong. And I admit that I am doing wrong. I live a life that is "poor" by American standards, because at least I was raised well enough to know that I am doing wrong.
You, you seem to just want to feel self-righteous about it, but anyone on this board who heats their house above the minimum necessary to sustain life in the winter, or goes to bed with their hunger truly satisfied, or has any unnecessary comforts in their life is, by your definition, a sociopath.
So I suspect you have just defined yourself as a self-righteous sociopath. You're welcome to it.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Not sure.
If you are poor enough, as I was at one point, someone robbing you of enough of your money and stuff could really finish you economically and put you on the street.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)About to attempt to steal?
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)But nothing I own is worth killing for.
Incitatus
(5,317 posts)But the wife of a friend of mine was murdered. She was working at a convenience store. She did everything the criminal asked and he killed her anyway, after he got what he wanted.
I will not kill someone to protect my property, but If I feel my life is in danger I will not take the chance that the robber will let me go when he gets what he wants. I will to whatever it takes to get the upper hand.
Shooting someone in the back as they are fleeing with something stolen is a completely different issue and IMO murder.
Sorry if that makes me a sociopath. That last thing I want to do is take someone's life.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)My TV? No. My books? No. Other toys? No.
The truck I need to feed my family? Damn right it is. I wouldn't shed a single tear. My business tools? My limited money? I would feel a moment's remorse.
It comes down to this: my life matters too. It matters every bit as much as the life of some thief -- and to me it matters more. And without 'stuff' life is impossible.