Meta-question on DU: Is it an echo-chamber?

[DetlefK]

I can't pinpoint it to a specific date, but I have gotten the feeling over the last year or so that DU has turned more and more into an echo-chamber, where differing points of view are treated with a huge amount of aggression and an astonishingly small amount of argument.

I remember a post from the Bush-years that tried to pin the blame for the large gun-violence on GWB.
Everything bad about the US seemed to be his fault. But that was regular Bush-derangement-syndrome.

About half a year ago, there was a thread in the Feminist group:
A guy had fondled a woman, she had punched him (broke his nose or finger or something like that) and she got into trouble with the police because of this.
I asked the question whether another user really thinks what her post just implied: That, if a man fondles a woman, that she has the right to respond in any way she deems appropriate, including murder, and that she should automatically be above the law in that, because the guy brought it on him.
I never got a clarification whether she really meant to include lethal response.
Instead I got aggression and implicit accusations of misogyny by the whole thread. The whole discussion turned really ugly and long because of my post, but my question was never addressed.

Just the other day, there was a thread in the Atheist group:
A guy had ranted against religion.
I'm an atheist myself, but his argument was dishonest because it was obviously wrong. I wrote an answer with a counter-example, proving him wrong.
Instead of further discussion, that post got me aggression. His argument got the nod of approval, while mine wasn't even attacked in the many hostile responses I received.




I have come to sense an increasing political fanaticism here on DU, an increasing partisanship, an increasing hostility to points of view that stray too far from the implicit ideas shared by the DU-community or its sub-groups. I have come to sense that casting doubts and calling for moderation are treated with increasing hostility.

Are there really discussions of opposing sides anymore on DU?
To me, it feels like DU no longer offers food for thought, just self-affirmation and self-congratulation about how bad those other guys are and how good we are.
Almost every thread reads: "Hey guys, check this out." - "Yeah, absolutely right. They are the worst."

It feels like the increasing emotional and intellectual closure of the republicans were mirrored here on DU in some sort of mental defense-mechanism.
It feels like you have given up fighting the hard way, with arguments, and that you have come to prefer fighting the easy way: with ignorance.

And that's sad.

[FSogol]

1. You see posts that say, "how good we are"?

I don't. I'm only seeing posts that bash the Democratic party, the administration, America in general, Obama, Kerry, etc, etc.

I chalk it up to "rat fucking." It is an attempt to discourage liberals and moderates from voting in the 2014 midterms.

I find it extremely tiresome.

[Andy823]

9. I agree

I have seen post that try and get out more positive information, ones that praise the president, the party, members of congress, etc., but usually someone comes in to those threads and highjacks them turning them into another "bashing" thread. It doesn't take long before the nay sayers flood in and take over. It's disgusting.

I also think it's about discouraging liberals and moderates from voting in 2014. There are a lot of new posters with large thread counts that seem to have only one purpose, keep things stirred up and divide the people on this board, and sadly it's working. This kind of crap worked in 2010 and we ended up with lots of republicans taking over not only the House, but also the government in many states. We all know just how bad that has been, and I really hope people can wake up and realize not voting is not a choice in 2014 unless we want more teapublicans in congress and more of them taking control of our states!

We can disagree on all kinds of things, but one thing we should all be able to agree on is that allowing the crazies to get control is not an option! All you have to do is look at states like Wisconsin, Florida, and Maine to see just how bad things will be if the crazies take control. We also can not forget that if teapublicans control the House, and are able to take control of the Senate, this country will go nowhere but down. If you think congress is bad now, just imagine what it would be like with the crazy teapublicans in charge of both branches of congress!

[stevenleser]

2. First, IBTL. Pretty common unfortunately, not only aggression, logical fallacies including straw men

and various other dishonest and passive aggressive debate tactics.

There is an unfortunately large group of folks who don't know how to debate properly. A good current example are those right now whose general position I agree with against the war in Syria, but who use dishonest debate tactics in response to those who raise questions. For instance...

Person A: I am worried about the use of chemical weapons and other WMD. I do want us to do something...

Person B: So you are in favor of killing innocent civilians?

I happen to be against military action in Syria so in general I agree with what appears to be Person B's position on Syria, but his response to person A is a straw man, dishonest and otherwise pretty ugly in general.

If you have even a modicum of debate ability, you do not have to resort to what Person B did. And you see a lot of that kind of thing on DU in general and the Syria threads in particular. That kind of tactic SHOULD illicit scorn from the rest of the DU community, but it doesn't unfortunately.

[KurtNYC]

12. so true. I would add that the amount of ad hominem arguments seems to have risen also,

although they have always been the most common logical fallacy. Back in the day, logical fallacies were called out here. Now they seem to be responded to with other logical fallacies.

To the OP, in my experience, the people most likely to respond to any OP or to any specific post, are the people who disagree. People love to be "right" and a recent study on internet forums claimed to show a link between posting opinions and info which the poster felt was correcting another poster and the release of endorphins.

[zipplewrath]

15. It's not a debate society

I've always struggled a bit with the medium in general because it isn't a debate society and it isn't an academic paper that people are writing here. It's more akin to the water cooler or 19th hole. As such it isn't always clear what conversational techniques to use.

[stevenleser]

19. I would never suggest that it is. That doesn't excuse the kinds of things I wrote about.

It's dishonest to deliberately rephrase someone else's position incorrectly and then attack that incorrectly phrased version of the person's position.

That happens all the time. It's an excuse for not being able to phrase an opposition position to the person's actual point.

[zipplewrath]

28. And a pretty standard political strategy

Heck, Rush made a business model out of the strategy. Like I say, it isn't clear what rules apply in these forums. Clearly the rules of logic don't apply around here. It's got far more similarity to a political talk show than anything else.

[stevenleser]

32. Republicans maybe. Democrats don't do this very often. It's a tactic borne of lack of confidence in

your position or your ability to articulate it.

It defines you as weak.

[zipplewrath]

43. Except in primary season

I seem to remember Obama complaining about this from the Clinton bunch.

[Turborama]

53. I agree it's dishonest, but is it always an excuse for not being able to?

Or sometimes just laziness and can't be bothered to phrase an opposition so they use the kind of deliberate inaccuracies you mention, ad homs and strawmen instead.

Often it can even be cowardly bullying using brute force in an attempt to shut someone up, knowing they have the gang behind them to back them up.

All of which make DU suck.

[grasswire]

46. yes, the Tucker Carlson-Ann Coulter style of "debate"

It's ugly, and it's here lately. Almost as if some were trained in RW styles. I think particularly of one poster who really has this honed.

[Eleanors38]

3. You forgot the grand-daddy of them all: Gun control. nt

[edhopper]

4. There seems to be a pretty big division here

on military action in Syria. And I don't know about the Atheist group, but the debate in the Religion Forum is pretty spirited.

[stevenleser]

20. No, there is not. 95% of DUers are opposed. nt

[LuvNewcastle]

5. That's not what I think "echo chamber" means.

To me, an echo chamber is a situation in which you only hear one opinion. I think DU was more of an echo chamber during the Bush years. Everybody hated Bush and people didn't like anyone to say anything nice about him or his policies.

Now we have people with various opinions about the Obama administration, so I would hardly call it an echo chamber. There are probably more critics of Obama than there are partisans, but everybody seems to have their say around here.

I think what you're seeing is the fighting between the different groups and the tendency for one side to try to build a strong majority and dominate the other. It's just a struggle for power, which is basically what politics boils down to. As events carry on, you'll see a change in alliances and the composition of the different groups will change.

Some periods will be more peaceful than others when there's broad agreement about issues. Right now we're going through a bit of a rough patch, but don't think that things will stay this way forever. You're just seeing the normal ebb and flow of politics.

[MadrasT]

6. I don't see that at all.

I see intra-party infighting now more than ever.

Hardly an echo chamber.

[CJCRANE]

7. That doesn't make it an echo chamber, but I know what you mean.

An echo chamber is a place where everyone agrees.

DU is more like a cacophony chamber.

The thing I don't like is where you see a long sub-thread with a constant back and forth and tit-for-tat of insinuations and veiled personal insults.

[Ichingcarpenter]

29. Ditto on what you said

good point

[edhopper]

8. I went and read the atheist thread

It's not that you weren't making a valid point that the OP was a bit to narrow in his thinking about religion.
But you were insulting and a little abusive in your response.
That is a forum where that type of behavior is outside the SOP.

The OP was making what he admitted was a rant. You could have made your point in a much less agressive way.

Something like; "While that might be one reason for authorities to promote religion, I don't seeing it being what all religion is about. You do see that religion predates war in Man's history?"

Instead you called him self righteous and pseudo-intellectual and were taken to task.

[hobbit709]

10. There are several groups who like to pretend everything is like this.

" Oh, give me a home where the buffalo roam,
Where the deer and the antelope play;
There seldom is heard a discouraging word
And the sky is not cloudy all day."

They want 150% agreement and if they don't get it, then you are a disruptor.

[Ichingcarpenter]

27. Ditto on what you said

good point

[el_bryanto]

11. Yeah i see people who disagree with me all the time. Very frustrating

And the worst part about it is how often those people who post ideas different than my own use such under handed tactics to get across their wrong point of view. They often use troll like behavior or dishonesty, and frankly, people who disagree with me may be secret conservatoids here to disrupt our board!

Bryant

[Ichingcarpenter]

26. Ditto on what you said

good point

[DetlefK]

47. I would be happy to be disagreed with.

The problem is the lack of interest in a real back-and-forth, an exchange. Simply reaffirming each other that you think what everybody thinks doesn't count as a spirited discussion to me.

[zipplewrath]

13. Look outside the medium

Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 10:35 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm old enough to have seen this before. In the old USENET days, when that medium started to decline, there were loads of explanations, withing each group, about the cause of the decline. Individuals or groups were blamed, or the changing nature of politics in the country. But the funny part was that they were ALL in decline and exhibiting roughly the same symptoms. Everything from golfing/sport groups to politics as well as various social groups. It became inescapable that the decline was from influences outside of USENET. We can discuss what those changes were, but I always thought it was inescapable that the rise of social media (facebook, myspace, etc.) were a prime influence.

In viewing the changing character of DU (perceived or otherwise) I think you always have to consider the changing nature of the medium itself. Twitter and the rise of the smart phone/tablet change the way we interact with the medium, and that has to influence the character of DU in some manner.

[FSogol]

18. Good point. n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

25. Ditto on what you said

good point

[pipi_k]

14. I don't

think it is an echo chamber as much as people would like for it to be an echo chamber.

Everybody agreeing, as long as it's with their own opinion, or set of "facts". And I put facts in quotation marks because no matter where you look, there will usually always find "facts" to bolster one side or another.

Anyway, what makes me shake my head in disgust is when people who are unable to debate some issue or another resort to personal attacks.

[Ichingcarpenter]

24. Ditto on what you said

[CJCRANE]

38. Bravo!

[woo me with science]

16. The vast majority of DU opposes strikes.

The familiar, small group charged with defending any and all corporate policy in the White House is doing their work, of course, with posts far out of proportion to their actual presence on DU.

We live in a surveillance state, and we also live in a propaganda state.

[Ichingcarpenter]

23. Ditto on what you said

[CJCRANE]

37. Agreed!

[KittyWampus]

33. And the familiar, small group keeps saying- false flag & why can't we haz RT in LBN.

From what I've seen- the familiar, small group that generally supports Democrats on DU are mostly opposed to intervening in Syria. Including myself.

It's possible to be against bombing Syria without resorting to idiotic false flag theories and jabbering about PNAC as if that explains everything.

[Amonester]

42. Ditto to that.

And to say the truth, I'm getting tired of DU

the constant

is childish and tiresome.

I'm a lot more often OFF DU than ON DU.

[AngryAmish]

17. More than anything it proves that people of DU are human

Every group has it's internal mores and taboos. If transgressed it creates a vitriolic reaction from the members of the group.

[Ichingcarpenter]

22. Ditto on what you said

[CJCRANE]

36. Amen brother!

[Ichingcarpenter]

21. Ditto on what you said

[CJCRANE]

35. +1

[DetlefK]

48. Mymy, you little pranksters... :D

[rug]

30. You'll see that a lot more in some groups than in the forums.

21. Why am I not yet seeing this sanctimonious holier-than-thou blowhard in the list of blocked users?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123017293#post21

Some people are not here to discuss.

[bluestate10]

31. There is a vocal core on DU that always seem to be able to post, either because they work

at home or can post from their jobs, or are retired or unemployed. I take their posts as they are when I see them, if I disagree firmly, I post, if not, I roll my eyes and move on. That vocal group attempts to bully and silence anyone that don't agree with them, that is what I find sad. May be 80% of the new people that make their way to DU are solid Democrats or Democratic leaning in their viewpoint. May be 15% of new people to DU are vocal anarchists that are determined to silence anyone they don't agree with. The remainder are people that are firmly against rational, progressive change in society, that is the Freeper cut that show up from time to time.

[grantcart]

56. +1

[bhikkhu]

34. There is certainly some of that

but overall I find it better than any other internet forums I've come across. I don't mind "opposing viewpoints", even if they are in the majority, as things quickly get dull when everyone agrees with everyone. Dispute is good, as that's when we have the opportunity to learn something.

The level of aggression and personal attack is a bit over-the-top sometimes. But if one wants a bit of solace, just go to Yahoo or even CNN and read practically any article down to the comments section...the internet seems to bring out the "ignorant nutjob" in way too many people! Read a bit, and then come back and see that its much better here.

[Dash87]

39. It is, but that's the nature of this site.

First and foremost, you need to be a Democrat to be here.

Secondly, every political site on the Internet is full of know-it-alls that can never be wrong.

Third, every forum on the Internet has people that treat it like High School rather than sticking to the forum's purpose (these are the types that adore drama and will create it every chance they can).

I've been on many Internet forums. They're mostly the same, give or take a few differences. At the end of the day, does it really matter what someone said to you online? Doesn't really matter much.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. Just the other day, you called a Atheists group post "self-righteous and pseudo-intellectual"

Is that what you think of as "a counter-example, proving him wrong"? Do you really think the aggression came from others, rather than you? And, by the way, the poster themselves addressed your points.

[northoftheborder]

41. What I have noticed.

I have noticed numerable instances where someone states an opinion, posts a link, or something which could be challenged in a reasonable discussion, and usually is, for maybe 6-8 posts. Then the original discussion turns into a separate debate, increasingly hostile between the posters, not necessarily anything to do with the original post.

It seems that some people carry over grudges from many years of discussion, know each other well, and know which buttons to push. Sometimes someone else will get back to the original point, but not always. I get tired of the "supplementary fights" and stop reading. I don't know how to police that kind of thing. Some people just don't know how to "discuss", are very thin-skinned and paranoid, seemingly. Maybe they are trolls, but I don't keep records like some people do, and can't tell if trolls or not. So if I'm on a jury, and someone has alerted because of he think the current post is part of a pattern of PAST statements, I never know if that is true or not.

[mick063]

44. Simply a reflection of dire times.

Our nation is becoming extreme, hence extreme measures, including extreme emotion, are to be expected.

I see nothing abnormal with emotional response to betrayal.

[ButterflyBlood]

45. Someone clearly didn't appreciate this post. LOL.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Meta-question on DU: Is it an echo-chamber?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023585834

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Whining about DU

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:42 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Not over-the-top at all. Seems like something DU'ers could handle without being insulted. Possibly even benefit from considering.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think this is very general and worth discussing.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This is not whining. It's a well written post with well made points that people should listen to.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Ask the admins. Wrong forum.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I believe the "Whiner" is more aptly the one who alerted the OP.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[DetlefK]

51. Ok, that made me laugh.

I have realized, that I really was a little bit of an asshole in the atheist thread, so it's a bad example.

But I still can't shake the diffuse feeling that the culture on DU has somehow changed forthe worse over the years.

[Rex]

49. No, certain people would love for it to be an echo chamber

and it is anything but. A lot of CBCW posts and others that only want to hear one voice and hold one notion about politics. Thankfully, DU has resisted becoming an echo chamber...in large part due to the admins not wanting to see their site turn into a worthless website imo.

DU will NEVER be an echo chamber...much to the chagrin of some.

[Yo_Mama]

50. If an echo chamber is defined as echoing with arguments, yes.

There's a lot of heated debate on DU about a number of issues.

[liberal N proud]

52. It seems over the last year or more that there has been an infiltration of those if you don't agree

with my view types. I saw it particularly forceful with the Snowden rhetoric.

It is frustrating at times, all we can do as liberals is hold to our OWN values and not let anyone tell us that we have to conform. We have the right to our own opinion and are perfectly capabale of make that judgement our selves, not needing anyone else to tell us what we think.

[Phentex]

54. I wouldn't classify all of DU but certain posters are filled with hate for some reason...

I don't know why but one person caught my attention as just being angry all the time, posting bite after bite and never a positive word about ANYTHING! I did a search of all of their posts and it was amazing to see the anger and the lashing out at even the lamest things. Nothing trollish about it. I figured their life must be full of pain and they just have to take it out somewhere. It was sad.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. Of course DU is an echo chamber, and always has been.

It's a fun place to come and visit, but it's vital never to forget that it has *nothing* to do with the real world, it's just a bunch of people preaching loudly and enthusiastically to a very fringe choir.