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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:25 PM

 

Yup...the schism on DU is deepening

And you know what? I actually don't mind it, one bit. The fissures were there all along.

And the reality is that uggly commies...err lib'ruls, will be blamed for 2014 and 2016. The problem is...that threat is not working anymore.

The country is not conservative. The elites are. The elites used to understand that you have to give something to the people from time to time...they are really are not. In fact, they are taking away fundamental rights. So 2014...the ones to blame will be the elites, in particular the party elite of the Democratic Party who has chosen to turn a blind eye to these concerns.

It's not because Democratic Party elites hate lib'ruls (some do). They decided to become the party of business...that's cool...the US goes through this every so often. Just be open about it. Nature abhors vacuums, so do political systems.

This is a natural evolution in American political history, it's time for the people, the base, to smell the coffee and realize the party of business does not want the lumpen proletariat anymore.

Local Labor councils are starting to abandon electoral politics as the end all of the system. Electing pols is no longer their highest priority, why? Card check is often cited...as well as free trade agreements. Behind closed doors both parties are now lumped together.

Then we have the current NSA kerfunkle and the name calling on all civil libertarians.

What I am seeing is the beginnings of what both parties fear: voter revolts.

Oh I expect acid responses, it goes with it. I am the enemy of the party, for I am an uggly and dangerous lib'rul.

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Reply Yup...the schism on DU is deepening (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 OP
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Phlem Aug 2013 #2
truebluegreen Aug 2013 #3
xchrom Aug 2013 #4
LWolf Aug 2013 #5
kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #384
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #9
dflprincess Aug 2013 #241
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YOHABLO Aug 2013 #287
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coldmountain Aug 2013 #146
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lpbk2713 Aug 2013 #182
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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:32 PM

1. They will "Bring It On" (see below)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:32 PM

2. you'd better make some room

for this ugly and dangerous lib'rul.

Great job nadine.

-p

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:32 PM

3. As some of my friends would say, "Not before time!"

 

The sooner the better.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:34 PM

4. 'centrists' or 'pragmatists' of the dem variety can go fuck themselves.

they were as instrumental at breaking america as any repuke -- yet they still scream and carry on like shrill children at any notion of independence.

no better than the tea party as far as i'm concerned.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:36 PM

5. Yes.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:24 AM

384. While others screw everybody else. nt

 

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:39 PM

9. They believe they are part of the elite

 

And thirty years ago many of them were Rockeffeler Republicans.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:08 PM

241. I think they're to the right of Rockefeller. n/t

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:47 PM

16. The bloody DLC

The bloody DLC is responsible for Democrats no longer being Democrats.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:48 PM

18. Who the fuck are those people..

Ah, I got it Rammy is a good example, perhaps Corey, and every other Blue Dog Dem. in congress..

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:00 PM

287. And Harold Ford

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:50 PM

22. Agreed!!!!!!

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:52 PM

24. what about the Republicans

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Response to treestar (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:25 PM

52. Republicans get a pass...

only Democrats are evil.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #52)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:41 PM

70. ........

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #52)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:38 PM

131. Straw man

I have not seen one person on this board saying Repugs are better for the country than Dems, have you? No one on the forum gave Bush a pass for illegal spying, but when Obama does the exact same thing, no condemnation at all is required? This progressive disagrees and cares more for policy positions than personality.

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Response to lark (Reply #131)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:01 PM

146. UNTIL THE GOP IS ELIMINATED AS A POLITICAL FORCE BEING ANTI DLC IS USELESS

 

ONCE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE NO POWER THEN LIBERALS CAN HAVE A PARTY TO THE LEFT OF THE DEMOCRATS, UNTIL THEN ALL THE COMPLAINERS ARE JUST USEFUL IDIOTS FOR FOR THE KOCH BROTHERS, ALEC, THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY, THE WORST OF WALL STREET, THE NEOCONS, AD NAUSEUM.

LOOK AT THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT THE NADERITES DID IN 2000 AND ALL THE DEMOCRATS WHO STAYED HOME IN 2010 DID. THE 2 PARTY SYSTEM MAKES NO ALLOWANCES FOR COMING CLOSE.

THE RIGHTWING HAS ENDLESS RESOURCES, TAKES THE LONGVIEW AND PLAYS FOR KEEPS. THEY'RE HERE DIVIDING AND CONQUERING US LIKE THEY HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #146)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:11 PM

153. Why are you shouting?

I disagree. DLC is not the Democratic party, they may be the money bags, the ties to Wall St & Big Business, but they aren't the party. Can you tell one whit of difference between Rahm Emanuel and a Repug mayor - NO. He's every bit as bad and the D beside his name is a lie. Democrats need to stand for something. Dems are in favor of privacy, civil rights, affordable medical care for all, human rights, good paying jobs, unions, social security, Medicare, good public education, regulating the financial industry so they don't destroy us again. You don't win the war by supporting and promoting Repug positions!!

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Response to lark (Reply #153)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:46 PM

173. THE WORLD WOULD BE A DIFFERENT PLACE IF WE WON 2010 OR 2000

 

LOOK AT CALIFORNIA AFTER THE REPUBLICANS WERE RAN OUT OF THE STATE HOUSE, IT'S GETTING BETTER. IF ONE DOESN
T WIN. ONE HAS NO POWER AT ALL. WE NEED TO VOTE THE MOST LIBERAL CANDIDATE AVAILABLE EVEN IF THEY ARE TOO FAR TO THE RIGHT, SHOW LEFTWING VOTING POWER AND THE POLITICIANS AND EVEN SOME CORPORATIONS WILL FOLLOW.
DON'T VOTE AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL NOT EXIST!

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #173)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:16 PM

182. Are you using a teletype?




Just curious.





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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #182)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 08:59 AM

338. It must be freezing;

 

Up there and his/her keyboard stuck

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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #182)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:23 AM

341. LOL!

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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #182)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:22 AM

382. ...

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #173)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:11 PM

242. We did win in 2000

but Gore refused to fight and the Senate Democrats went along with him.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #242)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:27 PM

249. Just as in 1994...

When the Republicans killed Bill Clinton's health care plan he didn't raise his voice at all...he just lay down and let them kick him.

Then we know what happened in the '94 elections and Clinton's subsequent "triangulation" (read: "me too! me too!".

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #173)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:05 PM

375. Psst

Using all caps on a message board is considered shouting. Please use upper and lower case so it seems more like a conversation and less like a shouting match.

Also, I agree you have to vote but it's truly sad when the D is almost the same, just maybe a bit more sane, than the R.

Thanks.

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Response to lark (Reply #153)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:56 PM

285. Because apparently it is not being heard?

No matter how many times it gets explained, we still have people on "DU" saying to "fuck Democrats."

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Response to lark (Reply #153)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:24 AM

358. I agree with what you say

 

The (D) gang in DC are Deceivers, not Democrats. Not any kind of Democrat I've known in all my years. Rham, Arnie Dunce'n, and the rest - how is it they're different from a Rethug? I'm disgusted - fed up even - with what presents itself as the Democratic Party anymore.

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #146)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:44 PM

273. ROFL

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #273)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 07:52 AM

332. &

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #146)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:10 AM

355. A Hillary supporter, making excuses for the DLC, and blaming liberals for the election of 2000

That's rich.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #355)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:13 PM

380. So you say there's no difference between Gore and Bush?

 

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #380)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:11 AM

381. No. You were blaming voters for the theft of the 2000 election.

LIBERAL voters. That is a lie told too many times.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #381)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:06 PM

386. Who were all those people responding to Nadir saying there was no difference?

 

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #146)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:43 AM

364. And that is why the GOP will NEVER be eliminated

 

Both parties rely on the opposition in order to exist. How many times has either party controlled every facet of government and done nothing? Why, when Democrats controlled both houses, did they not increase minimum wage and, more importantly, index it to inflation? Easy: because they want to have the wedge issue to bring up every 5-10 years. If they permanently solved the problem, they could not bring it up to gin up support.

I want liberal candidates. NOT lapdogs of the two parties who are just interested in themselves.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #52)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:37 PM

191. There is no difference between republican office holders and democratic office holders.

Just ask people in states where republicans gained absolute power, those citizens will tell you there is no difference as Ralph Nader head up the ass, blindly points out. Those on DU that blame democrats for everything are following the Nader creed, blindly.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #52)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:55 PM

284. Can't believe that on DU it goes unmolested

"fuck" Democrats. Of any stripe.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #52)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:47 AM

366. Precisely

 

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Response to treestar (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:08 PM

150. They play the role of bad cop.

Something to focus on so you don't notice that good cop is selling you out.
Which is a necessary role in this game of triangulation.

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Response to treestar (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:52 PM

200. How are we to fight Republican ideas

when they're taking root in our own policies?

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Response to treestar (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:29 PM

294. There has never been one decent republican politician in political office in the last 70 years!!

Maybe IKE..

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #294)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:28 AM

316. Or the sane half of Richard Nixon's brain..

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #294)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:51 AM

349. Ike was more liberal then than Obama is now, sad to say. N/T

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Response to treestar (Reply #24)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 02:00 AM

321. I'd guess for the most part because republicans are behaving like republicans

Since the 1920's they've been the party of establishment big business and corporatocracy
I'd also guess, it's because this is not the Republican Underground
Lots of people don't give a frick about the republicans and their issues, though they too are having them
They decided to have it both ways... fundies and libertarians and now it's biting them in the ass

As I said to a relative of mine who used to be a Republican, "When you try to have a big tent you gotta make sure that every clown doesn't get inside." The republicans welcomed the clowns in and they did what clowns do, they vied for the center ring to be the center of attention

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:56 PM

26. Well said!!

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:10 PM

36. A-fucking-men. They're not true Democrats. We shouldn't tolerate them diluting our core values. n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #36)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:54 PM

176. SOME SAID THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUSH AND DLC GORE

 

HISTORY HAS PROVED THEM TRAGICALLY WRONG.

I WISHED WE COULD HAVE WARREN/GREYSON BUT WOULD DIE FIGHTING FOR HILLARY/RICHARDSON

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #176)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:06 PM

206. The people that were behind Nader despite the clear warning signs won't take responsibly

for their actions or the consequences. Yet, some of those same people are demanding that President Obama immediately reverse all the damage that Bush caused. I find their inability to take blame and insistence that they are pure laughable at the best, enraging at the worst. We can never bring back nearly 3,000 people that died on 9/11 due to Bush ignoring warnings of a terrorist strike or the thousands of soldiers that died fighting wars that didn't have to be fought.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #206)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:08 PM

240. or the dead Afghanis, Iraqis, Pakistanis or the deaths from global warming

 

Some people just don't understand the big picture

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #206)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:02 AM

304. The two minutes of hate...

 

GOLDSTEIN!!!!

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #206)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:24 AM

359. You're making a false

equivalence and you know it.

Nader was not the reason Gore lost Florida. Gore was the reason Gore lost Florida. He should have won in 2000 by a slam dunk. It should not have been close at all.

And in the aftermath he should have fought harder to really count Florida correctly. I voted for Nader in 2000 after making certain that my state was safely in the Gore column but I don't fault those who choose to vote their core beliefs without being swayed by this modern phenomenon of polling. It is wrong to start blaming all of the hell of the incompetent Bush administration on the Nader people. It exposes the deep insecurity of the mainstream dems in my opinion.

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Response to coldmountain (Reply #176)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:28 PM

250. Would you make your current fight turning off your CapsLock key? NT

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:12 PM

37. Bill Clinton started the DLC, and Hillary was in its leadership. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:34 PM

65. Bill Clinton isn't a real Democrat

according to a supposed liberal on an anonymous message board.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #65)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:54 PM

82. Bill Clinton is a moderate Republican.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #82)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:59 PM

85. lol



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Response to marble falls (Reply #89)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:05 PM

95. uh, ok

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Response to marble falls (Reply #107)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:14 PM

113. omg, somebody had an opinion in 2011

must be right. I'm taking that Obama sticker off my car right now1!!11

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Response to marble falls (Reply #82)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 07:38 AM

328. Because only a republican

 

Would have put Ginsberg and Breyer on the court. The stupidity of your statement is staggering.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #328)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:19 AM

357. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. Is your definition of stupid anyone who disagees with you??

How about Earl Warren, a Republican justice nominated by Eisenhower, whose most important decisions were the ruling that made racial segregation in public schools unconstitutional. and the "one-man one-vote" ruling that caused a major shift in legislative power from rural areas to cities. Politicians cross party platform all the time. Interestingly, one of Warren's unsuccessful initiatives as governor ofCalifornia was for universal health care.

In 1969, President Richard Nixon named Warren Burger as chief justice of the Supreme Court, and in June 1969, he was sworn in. His court upheld the 1966 Miranda decision, and Burger voted with the majority in the court's landmark 1973 decision, Roe v. Wade, which established women's constitutional right to have abortions.

And Nixon who worked Teddy Kennedy for a single payer system.

Lets face it, the reason I don't like the Affordable Healthcare Act is that its a Republican style response to healthcare - it puts the healthcare into the hands of privately owned insurance companies. What we need is a Democratric response in he form of a Federally managed single payer like GB, France, Canada or Germany.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #357)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:35 AM

362. Keep your lame arguments away from me

 

If you think any republican would have put either of the two justices I mentioned on the court, you're also delusional.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #362)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:34 PM

389. Read a little history. you might learn a couple of things.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #82)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:24 AM

342. Mr. NAFTA +1

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Response to ProSense (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:54 PM

83. Precisely. That is why I do not want Hillary Clinton to be our candidate in 2016.

Bill and Hillary are now members of the wealthy elite.

They could care less about people whose fathers worked in factories and are now working at Walmart. They could care less about young families saddled with the burden of huge student loans. They could care less about people on Social Security, people earning minimum wage, people living in trailers, people who have been foreclosed, people who had to declare bankruptcy, people who are homeless.

They serve a meal to a hungry person every once in a while. They shake a senior's hand. Meanwhile, they negotiate trade agreements and "compromises" about welfare that increase joblessness, homelessness, ignorance, foreclosures and that leave all but the top 10% of Americans behind.

NAFTA, welfare reform, support for Walmart. Those are just a few Clinton policies that, joined with George W. Bush's wars caused so many Americans to fall into poverty.

We do not want the DLC. It has not served average Americans. It has made our lives worse. We want labor, health, trade and anti-trust policies (among other policies) that serve ordinary Americans and not just upper-income Americans.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:09 PM

179. you Professional Democrats somehow think that is a positive...

being a socially liberal Democrat and then fucking us over on the way to the bank.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:04 PM

205. Bill "started" the DLC?....the meltdown continues.


THIS is the DLC:
Here’s a key piece of information: the Kochs haven’t just given to right-wingers. Back in April of 2001, The American Prospect’s Bob Dreyfuss reported that [font size=3]the Kochs also funded the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC)[/font]


The DLC board of trustees is an elite body whose membership is reserved for major donors, and many of the trustees are financial wheeler-dealers who run investment companies and capital management firms–though senior executives from a handful of corporations, such as Koch, Aetna, and Coca-Cola, are included.

<snip>

[font size=3]Fitting, isn’t it? The entity that tries to undermine the progressive agenda from within the Democratic Party was getting funding from the guys who are trying to destroy the Democratic Party from the outside.[/font]

http://americablog.com/2010/08/koch-industries-gave-funding-to-the-dlc-and-served-on-its-executive-council.html




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #205)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:39 PM

222. The DLC

was nothing before Bill Clinton.

Remarks to the Democratic Leadership Council
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=46193

Bill Clinton defends DLC role, legacy

Former President Bill Clinton launched a spirited defense of the Democratic Leadership Council Tuesday night, crediting the centrist organization with the successes of his own presidency and his party’s electoral advances in recent years.

“I would have never become president if it wasn’t for you,” Clinton told a packed DLC gala honoring Al From, who is departing as head of the DLC after founding the organization 24 years ago. “You have evidence that what you did mattered," Clinton said.

Clinton’s speech comes at a time when the DLC – a third way group that has long been a thorn in the side of liberals - is undergoing a major shake-up in its ranks, with From handing the organization’s reins to longtime protégé, and former Clinton adviser, Bruce Reed.

But Clinton’s defense also comes as the centrist organization’s relevance has come under question. President Barack Obama has largely ignored the DLC, instead forging ahead with his own style of politics.

The DLC reached the height of its influence during the early 1990s. Clinton, who once served as its chairman, made the council’s policies on free-trade agreements and welfare reform staples of his presidency.

- more -

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23833.html



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Response to ProSense (Reply #222)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:31 PM

252. President Obama "ignored" the DLC?

Maybe so, but his policies have been virtually 100% DLC.

Otherwise, he would have pushed for single-payer health care, followed through with closing Guantanamo, and not signed onto the horrid Patriot Act.

Remember: Hillary Clinton voted for the Patriot Act.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #222)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:06 PM

267. AAnnnnd.....the Melt Down continues.

Your posts contradict each other.
ONE or the OTHER can be TRUE,
but not both.

You say, "Bill Clinton STARTED the DLC."

Then you say,

"The DLC was nothing before Bill Clinton."

Statement 2 is a logical admission that Bill Clinton did NOT "Start the DLC".

A Group of Conservative BILLIONAIRES cooperating to BUY influence in the Democratic Party in 1992 would have found a vehicle whether or not Bill Clinton had ever been born.


You claims defy logic.
Your claims defy coherence.
Your claims defy reason.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

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Response to ProSense (Reply #222)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:13 PM

268. "President Barack Obama has ignored the DLC".... LIke THIS!

[font size=5]
The DLC New Team
[/font]

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website early 2009)


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #268)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:18 PM

277. I am so glad you kept that screen shot

How many times has it come in handy?

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #277)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 02:51 PM

378. It has come in handy,

Though some will still try to catapult the nonsense by insisting that its not real, or its all "hype",
or that one doesn't count,
or that it was all the Republicans fault,
or he didn't have 60 votes,
or he has to be the president of everyone,
or something else equally as absurd.


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #268)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:34 AM

310. it's 2013, not 2009

The DLC is defunct, and for some reason, lives on at DU. It's not a secret. There's no DLC any more.

While we're on the subject, as a party wonk, I speak with a lot of people furthering our goals. I speak with Occupy. I speak with MoveOn, which is an official wing of the party. Sometimes I speak with Daily Kos posters , although in an unofficial capacity.

Know who I don't speak to? Anyone from DU.
Do the math. There's 5000 posters tops who espouse the ideas encapsulated by DU, maybe 300 rabid posters here. Out of 62+ million votes

And you know what? over 93 million did not vote at all.

Is THAT where you are getting your vast majority from? Because currently, half the country is far rightward of your mythical enemies the DLC.

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Response to Capn Sunshine (Reply #310)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:54 AM

311. Yes, DLC is defunct! Long live DLC policies!

Pretty tired of the pimping for the 1% in a party that is supposed to be the party of the 99%

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Response to Capn Sunshine (Reply #310)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:16 AM

313. Ouch

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Response to Capn Sunshine (Reply #310)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 02:17 AM

323. Spoken like someone who lives outside the little DU bubble.

Wish you'd post more often. The 300 rabid posters have crowded out the home page with their NSA/Snowden/Greenwald posts-- they just keep rec'ing each others' duplicative posts. Meanwhile posts on climate change, voter suppression and abortion restrictions drop like a rock. Traffic on this site is way down

It's sad because I really like the DU format, i.e., being able to post pictures, and the community feel. Do you know of another progressive discussion board with a similar format that is more tethered to the real world? I want to be around people who want to elect Dems.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #323)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 08:42 AM

336. I haven't found one, but I have noticed...

that as a local Democratic committee member who is also running for a local office this year-- I haven't found one person who admits to posting on DU. Most claim not to have heard of it. It is a small town, but not that small.

And there's very little talk about Snowden, the NSA, or anything else that brings out the rabid around DU.

Actually, I haven't found too many who post much at all anywhere, except maybe on Facebook, which is now kinda required as an election tool. No time for this silliness that brings no reward. Jobs, family, campaigns... important stuff takes up a lot of time.

Me, I'm here as an escape from that real life where I actually have to work and make sense.

Never forget that this is the place where a Kerry campaign official was hounded out as an ignoramus by anonymous mouth breathers.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #336)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:56 AM

353. Didn't know that about the Kerry person. Seems par for the course.

They even flame Alan Grayson posts around here. And you are so right about this place being a huge time suck. I have a family and work full time. I can't justify the time I spend getting into these stupid arguments with anonymous DUers who are disconnected from reality.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:40 PM

280. Soooooooooo?

If it wasn't for the "third way" that the Left seems to hate so much, a Democrat wouldn't have won the WH in 1992.



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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:14 PM

39. seems to me it was the independents

who gave us George W. Bush, and thus were at least as instrumental in breaking America as any Republican.

Independence is just a stupid notion in an electoral system where 4 is greater than 3 + 2 or even, in this case, greater than 3.9 + 0.2.

To some people it is just kinda important that Republicans NOT get elected and therefor get the power to pass huge, now permanent, tax cuts for the rich, and to invade Iraq and stuff like that.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #39)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:01 PM

87. DLC-type -- "moderate" -- so-called Democrats voted for all that stuff.

The problem is that the DLC does not educate people or support Democrats who do educate people about the wisdom of picking the liberal policy alternatives to huge, not permanent, tax cuts for the rich, the invasion of Iraq and the other objectionable stuff.

And as long as the DLC commands the Democratic Party, Americans will not even be told that there are viable alternatives to those stupid policies.

Rahm Emmanuel is tearing the Chicago school system apart.

Across the country, DLC Democrats including Obama's Education Department have joined with Republicans to destroy the teaching profession and the teachers' "unions" that speak for that profession.

Now they are attacking other professions. The working people and their unions -- their professional organizations have already been destroyed.

And, yes, the DLC has brought us all that. The total destruction of the middle class is the goal.

Americans need to wake up.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #87)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 02:01 AM

322. actually they did NOT

at least in those two cases.

A majority of Democrats in the House voted against the IWR (thanks to the leadership of Kucinich) and almost none voted for the Bush tax cuts. Bush tax cuts of 2003 passed the Senate by 51-50 with every Democrat and even a couple Republicans like Chafee voting against it.

A Blue Dog like Dennis Moore of Kansas did vote FOR the Bush tax cuts, but that was only for show. First, because he had already voted for Rangel's Democratic alternative to the Bush tax cuts, and second, because the Bush tax cuts were gonna pass anyway so his 'yes' vote was meaningless, except as a way to appease the conservative Kansans in his district.

Yes, I agree that the DLC sucks for policy and message reasons http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022085948

but voting independent or registering independent may mean you cannot vote in a primary (and thus help to defeat the DLC candidates there) and doing it in the general just helps the Republican to win.

Gore was DLC, but he would NOT have invaded Iraq and he would NOT have signed the Bush tax cuts into law. Clinton, the spineless triangulating weasel that he is, signed a huge tax cut for the rich in his 2nd term, but again, said odious tax cut could not have been passed without a whole excrement load of Republicans in the House.

Electing Republicans is almost never a good idea. And voting independent, at best, it accomplishes nothing, and at worst it enables a Republican to win in spite of getting a minority of the votes.

So. yeah, when people threaten to help the rats who will chew America's face off, then people who are paying attention tend to get upset at the thought.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:42 PM

72. The democratic version of the Tea-Party.

 

I agree. This place looks like Conservative Central sometimes, with the OP admiration posts and resulting warm, fuzzy group hugs of the followers.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:43 PM

74. +1

well said

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:46 PM

77. I count no more than a handful but they are prolific posters

when we mean old party leftists threaten their feeling of safety by suggesting that overreaching by one or more government agencies is the problem, not any sort of a solution. We're taking their binkies away and they don't like it any more now than they did when they were two.

Fuck them all with chainsaws.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:04 PM

94. Yeah, fuck those people who actually win national elections

 

instead of getting curb-stomped every 4years.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #94)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:10 PM

105. Oh oh ... that's going to go on your permanent record.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #105)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:11 PM

108. If only the party returned to the days of losing elections by 300+ electoral votes,

 

It could be redeemable.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #108)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:27 PM

164. Well the DLC could make that happen

Just keep offering the average wage earner nothing but GOP lite and they will not bother to vote...which will give the GOP just what they want, a discouraged voter base for the Dems.
The reason Obama won was because of what he promised and said he stood for....now we are told that none of that is possible so we have to STFU and vote for them anyway because if we don't the GOP has a monster in the wings ready to eat us.

Sometimes people get tired of being a sucker for that game.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #164)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:56 PM

203. When i contemplate the odious prospect of a contest between Hillary and a Santorum, Palin or Cruz,

 

I know that I shall do my duty, suck it up and do the ethically right thing and vote for Hillary.

Seriously, Zeemike, we may disagree and disagree vehemently with Hillary. But Santorum and Palin plan to put us all in internment camps. Surely you can see that is not a 'game'.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #203)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:30 PM

214. Well I will probably do the same

But that is just you and me, people who will vote no matter what.
But that is not how everyone sees it...I have talked to to many people that just say fuck it, there is no difference and will just abandon the system altogather...and there are lots of them, mostly ones who would vote for a democrat if there was one who offered hope and change.
And they grow tired of being fooled again and just say let the chips fall where they may.

But no Hard Times it is a game, a game of triangulation...one in which they offer you Conservative solutions and bat shit crazy, knowing full well you have to chose Conservative solutions.
If you control the choices you control the results.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #214)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:30 PM

279. Amen to that. Put up the crazies and drop one beacon of hope filled propaganda.

Who will quickly break our hearts when we find that the lies were calculated and the game is rigged. Break our hearts? More like every aspect of our lives and allow our future to be bartered to corporations. We need to put down the line folks. These people could not care less that they are fu***** us. The gay rights,
womens' rights, little tokens that won't mean much when all your other rights are gone, or owned by a corporation. If you haven't done so, a good documentary called The Corporation is a must see. I know it is easier to go into denial than think BO could on one hand care about the gays, human rights, etcc.. and then push through legislation that will be nothing more than a corporate coup d'etat. That should be a sign of mental illness or a duplicity so blatant that it is hard to digest. But somehow the media can't seem to really pick up on the contradiction, or what the implications are. What an insidious piece of work. And he isn't doing it alone. So you have to ask yourself what is the weakness and how can we exploit it?

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Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #279)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:04 PM

288. There weakness it their numbers

They could never win an election if we all voted...and that is why they keep saying this is s Republic not a democracy...they fear democrocy.

Because of all the "little people" got together and acted in mass as one they would not stand a chance.

And that is why they and the media spend so much time on things that will divide us...and the big three are Guns, Gays, and God.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #288)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:08 PM

289. Yes and voter fraud, disenfranchisement is on the top of their list.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #164)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:36 PM

219. The DLC is defunct, nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #219)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:34 PM

253. In name only

Its policies have worked their way throughout the Democratic Party like an infection.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #94)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:07 AM

368. The lack of political instincts in this thread is staggering

 

Fortunately that ilk is more or less irrelevant when it comes to winning elections.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #94)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:22 PM

379. lol well you have to have a lot of extra time to complain


about people who actually win national elections while the people who are actually involved in the process . . . well you get the idea.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:34 PM

127. +1

Well said, as usual. And so true.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:41 PM

134. + a gazillion. nt

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:47 PM

274. Word.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:17 PM

276. + 1...I am so done with them. nt

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:25 PM

293. Oh heck yeah that's so true.

I have tried to remain civil but I'm starting to feel I'm betraying my inner truths when I don't tell then to go fly a kite. They are the problem--they legitimize this crap and trample on the ONLY people standing up against it.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:50 AM

348. Shrink the tent!

Amen! DLCers need to GTFO of the Democratic Party and quit denying how they feel. Then TRUE Democrats can effectively support and nominate real progressives for a change!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:37 PM

6. Nonsense. It's not a 'schism' when it's a handful of people

The majority on DU lean left to FDR left to Seriously Left

A few noisy capitalist status quo supporters does not a 'schism' make

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:50 PM

20. But but.... It's so much fun to promote infighting....

 

And read thread after thread about "some people" instead of important issues.
We should just have a forun dedicated to critiquing "some DUers" so other DUers can feel superior. Put a fence around it and let them fling poo all day.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:07 PM

32. You know

who is fanning these flames, heh?

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:20 PM

45. I think there are lots of people who do, and its fucking boring.

 

You can kind of tell when they're more interested in keeping flames fanned than discussing their POV. I guess scrappers need to scrap.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:35 PM

67. There used to be such a forum. Skinner

wisely chose to close it down. Attempts to fire it up again, however, continue.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:53 PM

81. We had that. It was called META.

 

It almost destroyed DU, till was finally shut down. Most of the worst of the the agent provocateurs then left DU shortly after, or were tombstone for not taking the hint... There are still a few hanger ons around.

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Response to RC (Reply #81)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:22 AM

315. They are not truly gone...

Being the intrepid sort, they pulled themselves up by their socks and stayed the course.

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Response to RC (Reply #81)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:28 AM

370. What exactly was Meta for?

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #370)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:57 AM

371. I think your sig image perfectly encapsulates META!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #371)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:06 PM

374. Gotcha, thanks for the explanation

 

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:09 PM

34. If I was the GOP

I wouldn't start planning the Big Celebration Party , yet!

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:12 AM

309. It's not "a few". Way to rationalize your position.

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:38 PM

7. I'm ready

can we get a REAL Liberal, non-corporate, pro-Civil Liberties candidate? ...or maybe even a whole party/group/uprising....?

I'm so there, sistah!

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:40 PM

11. It will take a little time

 

After all both parties designed state laws to favor them, for that to happen. As the dems become the party of business, the elephants are going the way of the Whigs. Politics abhors a vacuum

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:51 PM

139. I think starting at the bottom, locally, is the way to go.

And the DNC needs to stop promoting corporate types over TRUE progressives.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:38 PM

8. i am the enemy of the arty

i crash exhibitions and make fun of the pictures that don't look like anything. i drink all the wine and eat all the cheese.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:39 PM

10. George Carlin - It's a big club and you (we) ain't in it

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:42 PM

12. You left out pointy headed and wild eyed, of which I am both

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Response to Kennah (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:47 PM

17. Hey...in the recent past

 

I have been called much...much worst than that. So their insults are truly mild at this point...what they will post here.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:50 PM

21. Commonist might be my favorite

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Response to Kennah (Reply #21)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:53 PM

25. I am actually referring to pretty

 

Crude language...trust me, these are mild. The worst they can get away in an open forum is traitor.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:03 PM

29. Oh yes, the crude stuff is pretty vile, but it often shows the true nature of some.

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Response to Kennah (Reply #29)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:05 PM

30. It is a mask slipping momemt, isn't it?

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:42 PM

13. so the Democratic Party will lose in 2014

because Democratic leaders did not give anything to the people

by passing a whole bunch of progressive legislation through the House?

wookay

That makes perfect sense.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:50 PM

19. What most working people know

 

Is that hope never reached them. They have no time for some inside baseball.

Their lives have not improved...that is what I hear. And if people can't understand that...well blame the idiots who are the lumpen proletariat...that is the classic answer.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #19)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:41 PM

71. inside baseball?

Democrats have no way to pass any legislation that would improve people's lives. Not as long as Republicans control the House and also have more than 40 willing to fillibuster everything in the Senate.

Yet you want to blame the Democratic Party leaders for this.

As far as what the people "know".

Well at least they have the internet and they can come to DU

where they will learn "it's all the fault of that awful lousy piece of crap Democratic Party."

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #71)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:44 PM

75. People who are working three jobs

 

Don't have time for that...part of the problem. I don't blame the voter

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #75)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:54 PM

142. Exactly.

 

Most people don't know about the fillibuster details. Most don't know the inner workings of the house in relation to the senate. And most people don't even know a fraction of the obstructionism going on. And part of the reason they don't know is that Democrats with megaphones and microphones don't say it loudly enough.

Blaming the Republicans is like blaming the Harlem Globetrotters for not giving the Generals enough of a chance to win. The fact is the Generals and the Democrats are in on the grift.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #142)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:42 PM

194. It's my job to know this crap

 

And at times it's hard to keep up...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #75)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:05 AM

305. only 5% of the workforce is working multiple jobs

but maybe that too is inside baseball. 7 million people with multiple jobs, out of 142 million employed.

I don't blame the Democratic Party for not getting things done, considering the political reality.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #305)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:09 AM

306. I don't blame the voters

 

The Democratic Party sucks at taking care of the messaging.

And no, most voters do not have time to follow the ins and outs of Boehner. Nor do most people watch the span. For that matter it's a minority that goes to city hall.

That is reality.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:26 PM

212. It's upside down logic. But it makes sense to some DU members. I prefer being part of the

reality set. Blaming democrats for House republicans freezing up government is insane.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #212)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:10 PM

291. Poor kid, they are not blaming democrats

 

they are blaming both parties for the complete dysfunction of government. This might be too hard to comprehend, but for the people who vote, and don't have the time to spend in every nuance of the political system and when Speaker Boenher called the house to order, or when Leader Pelosi got critical at the daily presser.

Believe it or not, people really do not have time for that. Do kindly look for the popularity of the House in polls... I mean the HOUSE not one party or the other.

The problem is that many voters (potential) are so fed up they gave up on it. Others, like myself, have concluded that we are not represented. And you can argue until you are blue in the face against that logic, in a few districts you are correct, in most you are not.

Oh and before you accuse me of not getting the system... politics is actually what I follow for a living, with fires. You know what we say about them? (And it applies to Congress too), "City Hall, wild fires, both full of hot air and equally destructive."

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:43 PM

14. I had already seperated myself from the party over education but I read a thread the other day that

Philadelphia is taking a loan to open their public schools this fall. That put the nail in the coffin for me. What kind of party do we have that shrugs off Chicago closing 50 schools and Philadelphia taking a loan to open their public schools? It's no party of mine. I will be paying very close attention to how my state handles funding education. WA has been mandated by our state supreme court to find a way to fund our schools. This will be a test of leadership and I will be paying very, very close attention. By the way, how sad is it that my state's supreme court has to force our state legislators to find a way to fund education? It's pathetic, simply pathetic.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:51 PM

23. What is happening in Chicago, and Philadelphia, is exactly

 

What a market party does. Privatizing the military and intelligence are again what business parties do. I expect them to privatize the police and FD to be honest.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:28 PM

123. Welcome to the state of Education in Ohio!!!

The funding mechanism for public schools was declared unconstitutional last century and it still hasn't been addressed adequately.

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Response to tonybgood (Reply #123)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:05 PM

178. I am absolutely furious over the state of education in this country.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:46 PM

15. What we've got here is a failure to enforce ideological boundaries.

Whatever happened to "Don't be a right winger?"

This is Democratic Underground.

Not Republican Underground, Authoritarian Underground or Fascist Underground.

Are not members of this site expected to hold left wing views?

Why is advocacy of the NSA's violation of our Fourth Amendment Rights tolerated here at all? Anyone spewing that line before Obama was elected was immediately tombstoned for espousing Bushie right-wing neocon talking points. And people spewing that shit should still be tombstoned today.

Why are McCarthyist-style smear tactics tolerated on this site? As the term McCarthyist suggests, that kind of attack is the kind that we'd expect from our right-wing opponents, not our own ranks. Why is it that calling people "Paulbots" doesn't result in PPRs?

We need some enforced ideological boundaries here. It's not censorship. It's providing a shared space for left-wingers. If you want to advocate turning this country into a Stasi-style police state, Free Republic is that way. I'm sure you'll find them more accommodating.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 01:59 PM

27. The party as a whole now occupies right of center

 

On a good day, to right wing. So they are democrats

The mayor of Santee put it this way, after he became independent as the Republican Party became radicalized, the same is happening here. "The party left me, I did not leave the party."

Well the Democratic Party left me, I did not leave the party

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #27)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:05 PM

96. Time for this picture again.

 



If I were to redo this, I would face the Donkey to the Right. I even thought about doing that when I made it.

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Response to RC (Reply #96)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:22 PM

120. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:03 PM

28. rec

 

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:05 PM

97. This is an authoritarian, McCarthyite post and textbook

 

example of projection.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:37 PM

129. A-FUCKING-MEN!

We even have the most prolific apologists totally flip flopping on their own views. We do have an archive and these people held totally different views on NSA, Chained CPI, drones etc. prior to Obama flip/flopping on his positions.

The only people that get tombstoned are the mentally ill <cough>grahm4nothing</cough>.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:05 PM

31. I just want to hear

your explanation of how putting the GOP back in the White house is going to correct the oversight of NSA.

Much squawking, but no solutions given. I am starting to wonder how many of the New Demotarians understand about how real changes are made in our government and all that is evolved in that process.

If not enough to complain and be against something, rather you best be prepared to offer alternative solutions, you expect to be taken seriously!

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #31)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:09 PM

35. I expected this response sooner or later

 

Bravo

I am not represented by the conservative, or more radical, elites of either party

It that clear now?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:17 PM

42. food for thought


my dd shut down this year. in this format it was number two after kos and we were in third in alexa traffic rank.

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Response to madrchsod (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:21 PM

48. Taken...but I think voters are realizing this

 

I have heard a real fear of a voter revolt.

To be fair, from both parties.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #48)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:02 PM

90. Many people I talk to are fed up with both the R's and the D's, be it right or wrong, they, often

do not see a lot of difference, however, social issues, that is different. Their feeling, both are just interested in $$$$$ and their self-betterment.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #90)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:37 AM

345. Yes, the dems throw us a few more social justice crumbs, but economically, they serve the 1%, too.

I've been voting dem, cuz I do see a difference in the two parties. However, I've come to the conclusion that you cannot have social justice without economic justice. Six weeks ago I changed my party affiliation to Green. I'll vote dem when they deserve it, but no more lesser of two evil votes from me. I've been doing that for two decades & it's gotten me exactly what I was voting against. Changing parties is my way of telling the democratic party, "You've taken my vote for granted for far too long."

I have a good rep, one mostly OK senator. The other senator is a repub-lite dem that I'm not so thrilled with. I see that recently he has been speaking out against Citizen's United, probably cuz there's a real repub with lots of cash, getting ready to run against him in a few years. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.

"No matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up." ~Lily Tomlin

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #48)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:22 PM

184. Yup -

and the scary part is the fascism that will result once the libertarians win the office.

It really doesn't matter if the parties have switched positions (as they have - a few others predicted that along w/you a couple of years ago) if they can't figure out how to represent the people.

Young technology workers (especially male) are already libertarian - they are following the lead of the top dogs in their field.

Unlike Greece we don't have a strong left here (they at least have the KKE). And New Dawn is giving them a run for their money in that country. I can only imagine how easily the shift to fascism will be here.

It's really quite frightening.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:47 PM

224. Who represents you? Regardless of whether you approve or not, Democrats or republicans

will lead government and people of your ilk will have no choice but be affected by the policies they implement. I would rather take my chance with Democrats, by light years. I fail to see how anyone that consider themselves progressive would want to risk the remotest chance the republicans will control government when that can be prevented.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #224)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:00 PM

236. Yup, that is what worries us

 

but you ignore most of this. I expect the Elephants to go away... they are imploding. Read on the 1850s and the rise of the Republican Party... and what your beloved Democrats were back then. Then maybe you will understand what I am talking about.

History Sir, is repeating itself.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #236)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:48 PM

259. So proponents of TPP are the pro-slavery people and opponents are

the anti-slavery people?

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Response to valerief (Reply #259)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:54 PM

263. Actually you do not realize it, but you got it pretty close

 

we may not have official slavery around the world, but work conditions in many regions of the world favored by these treaties are pretty close to slavery. So people are not sold and bought... but they are working for a buck a day. In the meantime these treaties are depressing wage scales around the world.

You should read the main critique of slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries among freemen... ah the echoes.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #263)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:58 PM

266. I consider it slavery only without the ownership papers.

Thanks.

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Response to valerief (Reply #266)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:41 PM

271. Exactly

 

My apologies

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:12 AM

356. +1 It sure seems that way

local politics are starting to look far more important than Presidential elections.....

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #356)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:27 AM

360. Two races to pay special attention, and won't be easy

 

School board and the judges race. We try to cover them, they are very hard to get info, and they are very critical for policy. If you live in a rural area, the local fire board and water board are also critical.

Your city council should be covered by local media.

Last time we had an oh my god he is out there tea party running for judge...and a moderate republican. Yup, we did vote got the republican

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #31)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:18 PM

43. Good points.

Don't expect and answer because it won't come. To many here are really good at complaining, yet fail to see the end results of their actions, or they just don't care if their local and state government is taken over by republicans, or if the WH, Senate and House are also taken over by republicans and tea party clowns. It's kind of like the GOP, they attack the democrats and the president, yet they have no plan at all of their own, just fear and smear, or doom and gloom. I never though I would see the same things here on DU.

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:05 PM

237. People of the ilk that you are mentioning live in a fantasy world where if things get bad

enough, the average citizen will revolt and overthrow government and replace it with benevolent leaders that ONLY think of doing what's in the publics best interests 24-7. Ignore that the fantasy has never been realized once in human history, the proponents of the fantasy sure do. Because of their actions, a GE Bush gets elected and nearly destroy the country, or republicans gain more power and begin to rollback worker, women's and minority rights across the country. But the purist don't give a damn, they purely float above the fray waiting for the fantasy to one day happen.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #31)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:41 PM

133. You want a solution? I'll provide it.

First of all, do not vote for any candidate that takes money from any corporate entity. Do not elect a member of a political "party". They are bought and paid for by their corporate masters. Vote out of office (any and every office) any politician who does not support ALL of the Constitution of the United States. Do not vote for any politician for any office that supports the Patriot Act, the NSA spy initiative, more wars and more militarization of the police.Vote for candidates for office that approve of term limits; a progressive, yet simple tax code; trade agreements that are beneficial to American workers and consumers; a farm policy not beholden to Monsanto and Big Agri-Business; separation of bank and investment firms; immigration reform and tightened security of our borders; living wage requirements and strengthened Social Security; a single-payer health care system; no more support for "friends" in foreign countries who do not share democratic values; a national defense that is not out of proportion to our own security; and finally, the rule of law instead of executive order.

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Response to tonybgood (Reply #133)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:56 PM

143. So my question would be

How do you accomplish this, and who do you vote for? The only way to change things is to get people in office that will work for the people, otherwise nothing changes. If you don't vote for a person in any party, who then do you get elected to make these changes?

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #143)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:14 PM

209. You accomplish this by not voting for the people that do such things

 

I thought he made that rather clear.

Nothing will bury the Republicans quicker than being in a power. Americans not beholden to Theocracy, Racism, and Guns hate them everywhere they rein.

A brief price I'm willing to pay to turn this party around. The current leadership will be thrown out due to incompetency if they lose a couple of times. We have to dig ourselves out of a hole anyway. Four feet deeper isn't going to be much different than a couple feet deeper.


Then there is the longshot that some of those Bernie Sanders types get elected and caucus with the Democrats anyway. Time to start building some seniority with those types. It might as well start now.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #209)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:30 PM

215. What he said was

You don't vote for any member of a political party, who does that leave?

I have heard you spout this same BS before when you said we could do worse that Chris Christie. I will tell you once again that allowing any republican in the WH would pretty much be the end of things as we know them. If they got in power it would be a lot deeper to dig out of than "four feet"! Look what happened with Bush. It will take many, many years to dig ourselves out of the "hole" that ass dug for us, and if you think Christie would be any better than Bush, then you really do have a problem.

What you fail to understand is that letting the teabaggers take over congress with a republican in charge of the WH is just plain insane! There is no way we can afford to let that happen. And oh yeah, if the win a "couple" of times there will be no more SS, no more health care unless you are rich, no rights for women, no more unions, no more collective bargaining of any kind, no more minimum wage laws, no more laws to make sure everyone gets to vote, etc. Are you really willing to give all that up to teach the party some kind of lesson?

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #215)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:33 PM

217. Oh I understand completely

 

I anxiously await the shit storm of protest and anger that the Republicans will cause.

Here is what you don't understand.

Nothing is going to change until a whole lot of people get really pissed off. People that don't read DU.

Further, 9/11 was the perfect storm for Bush. It is the only reason he was reelected. The only reason.

I'm gambling 9/11 doesn't happen again to save their sorry asses. Without one, I predict one term and they are run out of town with fury.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #217)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:41 PM

281. Voter fraud.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:08 PM

33. This will go over well...

 

nt.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:13 PM

38. I just don't see it

How is dividing the democratic party, like the tea party has done to the republican party a good thing? How is calling all those people who do not think like you do on this board "conservatives"? Who decides who is a liberal and who isn't anymore? And no it won't be "liberals" that will be blamed if republicans and teabaggers take control of state governments, and the US government, it will be those who were gullible enough to buy into the right wing BS tactics of divide and conquer. It worked for them in 2010, and they are praying that it will work again. Only time will tell.

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #38)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:29 PM

56. Sorry purity is what is important

 

As you say its working out so well for the tea party we just have to emulate it!

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Response to Egnever (Reply #56)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:09 PM

180. I don't think that word means what you think it means...

...the term "purity" could be accurately applied to those who believe we must toe the party line 100% of the time or we'll be called paulbots, teabaggers or worse.

Or did you mean "purity" as in "consistently principled"? If so, it is telling that you view it as a pejorative term.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:16 PM

40. This is what happens to people who spend too

much time on one internet forum, it starts looking like a real world trend as opposed to the opinions of a small group of posters on one forum on the vast internet,which is what this is.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #40)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:22 PM

49. Yup, that's why I spend a lot of time talking to voters

 

In the real world and labor leaders...it's my job or something.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #49)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:21 PM

119. Looks like you got another canned talking point

Don't we have a list around here somewhere?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #49)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:37 PM

128. You have a job on a small giveaway paper

with a small audience that covers one small area of the country,you don't have any idea what passes for voters moods outside of that very small demographic, if even then .Labor has not decided to "abandon electoral politics" and to even claim so is ridiculous.

It's spelled "ugly" not "uggly".

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #128)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:54 PM

201. Yup. Another canned answer

 

So tell me, how many times a week do you sit at local politics? In fact just walked in from a rally to remove the mayor of this country's 8th largest city...one of the sentiments was to get money out of politics.

There was also some palpable division on that exact point.

So how much politics exactly do you cover?

Don't bother answering, this reporter, who lives and covers politics in the 8th largest market, and a large county with multiple cities...is putting your ass on ignore.

You claimed I talk with nobody but "web people" translated to fantasy people.

Well, not really.

Good bye.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:17 PM

41. This is flamebaitish, at best.

There are disagreements on DU. If there were not, there would be no discussion. I suppose you won't see this, but I'm saying it anyhow.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:20 PM

46. I agree

And like you I am sure it won't be seen either.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:31 PM

60. I agree with you- and as you know, we don't agree on all that much

 

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Response to cali (Reply #60)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:34 PM

64. We agree on far more than you think. It's the presentation

that is the problem, you see.

In any case, this thread is a return to the old Meta bashfesting that was ended some time ago. It does nothing to benefit DU, but merely serves to deepen the very "schism" the OP is talking about. Unfortunate.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #64)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:54 PM

141. The growing schism on DU has a whole lot to do with the Left Wing of the Republican Party passing

 

themselves off as Democrats.
Accentuated by the fact that BOTH political parties are far to the Right of where the were 50 years ago.
We need to face up to the fact that the Democratic leadership is to the Right of the Nixon Republican party. Yet still we call them Democrats, so we are suppose to support them in their ever drift to the Right? Don't think so. The rebellion has to start somewhere. It starts with one person stating their objections and others joining in the resultant discussion, to build consensus on how best to right the obvious wrongs. It is called Grass Roots. The real Grass Roots. Not the artificial turf we are given to play on by our 'leaders'.
In other words the Big Tent on the Left needs to be purged of the problem people proposing more of the same, as the solution to the problems that they themselves are causing.

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Response to RC (Reply #141)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:03 PM

147. There are a lot of problems with trying to compare the republican party of

 

40 years ago to the democratic party of today. Nixon's republican party was every bit as racist if not more so than today's republican party for example.

I don't buy the comparison. I think it's much more about the creeping corporate influence/control on both parties than anything else.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #64)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:38 PM

169. Yes. This. And it is unfortunate.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:52 PM

275. Absolutely it is. And the "fuck pragmatic people" comment at the top of the thread

with a half dozen braying high-fives just cements it.

There is a name for people that hate moderates. Rhymes with "pextremists" but I can't remember it...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:52 PM

298. I agree. Lots of it today.

My agreement will also most likely not be seen.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #41)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:39 AM

318. As she tells us repeatedly: she does follow fires.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:19 PM

44. Fuck Ralph Nader...nt

Sid

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:21 PM

47. Yup!

That's what appears to be going on with the liberals that I'm friends with and associate with here in Dayton Ohio nadinbrzezinski.

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Response to Howler (Reply #47)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:23 PM

50. That's what I am hearing from locals

 

Including labor leaders. Card check and TTP figure highly in the lists of disappointments.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #50)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:29 PM

58. I have NEVER in my whole polictical life

Seen what is happening now happen. I am 54 years old and have ALWAYS voted democrat but to be quite frank The national party has left the democratic values and the people far behind. I have taken very serious note of the socialist party that has been on the last couple of tickets for the elections. I think a lot more people around here are too.

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Response to Howler (Reply #58)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:35 PM

66. I was talking to a local central Committee member

 

Realize Cali's largest voting block, and it's growing, is the independent voter. She did say it, the Democratic Party all the way to the state level, as well as national, is afraid of a voter revolt. A republican repeated that too over coffee.

Neither party elite understands what is going on. But sure voting blocks are pulling back.

The dem admitted the problem is the political bubble. Reps from minority districts have less of an issue with the bubble, but they also have a lot less real power.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #66)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:53 PM

80. OOOO! I believe it.

We still have Sherrod Brown here in Ohio to vote for . He has a proven track record.
Man I'm telling ya the People from the democratic party that phone right before election time are hearing it here too. By the time they got around to calling me this last election She must have been at her wits end! She Slammed that phone down so hard it made my ears ring. HHHHOOOWWWLLLLLL! I simply told them that until they started acting like democrats instead of republicans they could no longer count on my vote. Whew!

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Response to Howler (Reply #80)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:55 PM

84. To clarify

That was this last national election in 2012.

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Response to Howler (Reply #84)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:01 AM

312. I know

 

I got two reasons for them to stop.

I am a reporter, and I don't want to hear it. I think they finally got it when I pulled the press card...for real.

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Response to Howler (Reply #58)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:30 PM

124. I feel much the same, and I'm a fair bit older than you, this is nothing like the

democratic party I joined when 18, over half a century ago.

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Response to Howler (Reply #58)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:24 PM

185. you most certainly are not alone.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:25 PM

51. LOL We are all victims!

 

We have no control of the government we get! Everyone wants the leadership we do they just dont vote for it!

What a load.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #51)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:26 PM

53. Kudos for the acid response

 

Expected.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #53)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:27 PM

54. My pleasure and thanks for the vapid post!

 

Also expected.


Your turn.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #54)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:28 PM

55. Good bye

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #55)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:06 PM

98. and another one down

 

and another down.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:29 PM

57. Thank You For Sharing

eom

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:31 PM

59. When those who are sworn to uphold our rights and the Constitution

Last edited Wed Aug 21, 2013, 06:09 PM - Edit history (1)

choose instead to violate, in such a cavalier and arrogant manner, many become enraged, as they should, while others demand blind faith and purity oaths.

We saw most of the repubs in some strange daze back every attack on the Constitution by bush. We see the same thing from many Dems and DUers in regards to Obama. And they all insist everyone join in the blind worship, else the attacks and name-calling begin.

I could give a damn less about labels at this point.

When you're not doing the basic and paramount thing you have sworn to do, you don't have my vote, my support, I don't care what letter comes after your name on the ballot.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #59)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:10 PM

103. WE were right to reject YOUR pimping of the IRS nontroversy.

 

Just like we are right to reject your fake claims that Democrats/Obama tried to take away everyone's guns.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022958442

The same federal government that secretly kept tabs on media phone lines, and used the IRS to harass and intimidate political dissenters, and did indeed try to "come for your guns," are also bugging your phone calls and texts. You KNOW the same is true with email and probably any electronic communication. DHS just announced that a "hunch" is enough justification to physically search your laptop or cell phone.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2839312


25. You're dismissing the IRS story?

It is ok for the government to use its power and authority to stifle political dissent?

That's ok?


That makes us Democrats, and members of the reality-based community. You're welcome to join us.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #103)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:15 PM

245. As if to prove my point.



By the way, why would Lerner, who said she had done nothing illegal yet took the Fifth, offer to talk if given immunity? Now why would she want immunity?

I mean, come on. I've been a Democrat for decades, but I didn't check my brain at the door.

You don't speak for the party, gt. And you don't get to tell anybody else what they may or may not think and say. Climb down from your imaginary throne, gt, nobody's going to bow to you.



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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #245)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:21 PM

301. You and Darrel Issa are two peas in a pod on that score. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #301)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:50 PM

302. Que the shallow name-calling in place of substance.

Like clockwork.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:32 PM

61. Somewhere around here there's this wonderful poll

that found 80% of "liberal Democrats" approve of Obama.

Well, I feel betrayed in some major ways (e.g. Chained CPI, TPP), while at the same time acknowledging some notable successes. The ACA is not what I would wish for in an ideal world, but it is far better than what exists now, and many people will get coverage who couldn't access it before.

But there is no way for me to express the complexities of my attitude toward the Administration in a phone poll. Even though I have major problems with the Administration's policies, if a pollster were to call me & ask if I support Obama, I would say I do.

I would say this because the poll starts out with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with Obama is doing so from the Right, not the Left. They don't even acknowledge the existence of people to the left of Obama. They give me no option to express my unhappiness with him from a leftist perspective.

If I say I am unhappy with him, the pollsters will take for granted that I'm unhappy because his policies are "too liberal." Therefore, the least inaccurate response I can give the pollster is to say that I'm thrilled with Obama. And I damn well bet that a whole lot of that 80% made the same calculation.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #61)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:10 PM

106. That sums up my feelings. I am to the left of Obama, but I support him. I am part

of that 80%.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #61)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:09 PM

290. Indeed...what you express is what's wrong with polls that don't capture

NUANCE!

I'd answer the same as you...but, I'm now way to the Left of Obama as I see him moving forward into his Second Term.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #61)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:45 AM

319. I'm also part of the 80% self-identified liberal Democrats who approve of Obama

That was a very encouraging poll, wasn't it? I agree with you though that participating in polls is tricky because they are so pared down, and don't offer any nuance.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:32 PM

62. And what about the people who compare Obama unfavorably with Nixon & Cheney?

 

They self-righteously claim the mantle of Liberalism & paint the enemies they've created - those who warn against trusting unrepentant liars like Snowdon & Greenwald who give only lip service to "civil liberties" - as nothing but totalitarians. Yet their allies are the Drs Paul and the worst kind of Teanaggers.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:33 PM

63. there's also different structures of leverage between the parties: the GOP is

well-defined since 1978/80: right-libertarians, big business, the religious Right, and militarists: each of these is basically their own camp, with resources, alliances, threats to depart, control of party primary balloting or infrastructure; GOP leaders are fractious, their voters lockstep: the party is shaped like a square or diamond, with the candidates running around in the middle
the Dems are built more like a grid--lots of levels as the "rows," lots of constituencies as the "columns": it brings together unions, a preponderant chunk of minorities, consumer and environmental protection, gays, people who know what it's like to actually be shot, a lot of veterans, the elderly, Constitutional-rights, antimilitarists, etc., and sets itself as these groups' only possible representative--and indeed there are even Senators who do usually represent these interests. However, since these constituencies have nowhere else to go, since the GOPers typically mock the very existence of these groups and the likes of Amash and the Pauls champion their causes exactly once a year (I counted), they have NO leverage. If a Dem loses, the Pub enacts bad policy; if a Dem wins, they often share ideology and interest with the Republican party and are free to enact the same bad policy. Since Tip O'Neil's departure (and he himself often conceded the necessity of the Cold War and its attitudes) and the NAFTA vote (almost half the Dems and almost half the Pubs voting against) we've seen the formation of a new political class: the Republicans tried to bring Clinton down by every means possible and damned him as a Red, but all his policy initiatives resonate with the Contract On America (which I've seen praised on DU). This class fights with itself harder than the Capitol did in the 40s-80s, and yet ends up swimming in sync on policy.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:36 PM

68. Whatever. Why are you trying to pick fights? It's not helpful. Instead of trying to divide us,

why don't you spend your time trying to unite people against the real enemy which is the Tea Party, the KKK types, the John Birch types?

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #68)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:38 PM

69. Whose fight this is I think I know.

Their house is in the village, though. (Sorry, Robert...)

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #68)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:43 PM

73. Pointing out facts is hardly picking fights

 

Perhaps in your mind it is. The first step to any solution is problem identification.

This is what I was told once, but hey, maybe we are wrong...which I think it is actually part of the problem...realizing that indeed we have a problem.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #73)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:51 PM

79. And you know what? I actually don't mind it, one bit. The fissures were there all along.

Sounds to me like you are picking a fight and enjoying it. Why not try to bring people together instead of drive a wedge?

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #79)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:27 PM

122. Where is "together"

When we have a split over Left and Right values? Do we only violate the Constitution sometimes? Blow up half as many kids with drone strikes? Invade half of Iraq or Iran and let half of the oil companies rape the place? Do half single payer and half free market?

We have different parties for a reason. The fact that they are both adopting the same bad policies means that people like Nadin and I ask for a sea change, or we have to leave and form a new party.

Which would you prefer?

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #79)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:44 PM

196. Go take a poli sci class

 

And learn the most basic of politics. Learn what the term coalition means and what happens when they fracture

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #68)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:14 PM

155. What about the enemy within?

 

How can we best fight the visible enemy, while ignoring the enemy within?

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #68)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:42 PM

272. NADIN started the LIBERTARIAN bullshit. She proudly claimed to be one.

She claims to be a left wing libertarian. And all SORTS of people said, "I'm one, too!" And they also happen to tout A policy or two by Ron/Rand and then get all HUFFY when people start wondering.

WELL, if you announce to the world you aren't a Democrat any longer, that it's "freeing" not to be one anymore, and post Rand Paul shit, you brought it on yourself, Nadin.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022802897

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #68)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:01 AM

339. Nadin is not dividing us...

The fight is very basically between the pro-Hillary and the anti-Hillary camps of the divisive party.

Many of us are progressives and will never see eye-to-eye with the DLC people even if Nadin changed her tune to how very happy we all are with the party.

The wealthy and the prowar people have been given too many breaks and what they earn for what they do is scandalous but is okay because of joined Rep and Dem votes in the Congress...

I still can't say I don't like Obama. I do, very much, but wish his closest advisors were not some of the people I see near him.

Why oh why could he not have picked Dean for some WH job? (I know why, the DLC hates Dean)....

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:44 PM

76. I agree, but what comes next?

 

Smell the coffee? Done that. Hell, I'm drinking the coffee.

What's your solution?

Strike?
Riot?
Create a new party?

How do the lumpen proletariat defeat the party elite?

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Response to demwing (Reply #76)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:48 PM

78. We stop buying the lies being told to us. We keep being told that there aren't enough of us or that

our candidates can't win. It's a self fulfilling prophesy. People tell us this and we say "okay" and continue to vote for democrats who cater to the rich and powerful. If we would just start voting the way we want to vote there would be enough of us and we would have candidates that could win.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #78)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:12 PM

109. Who's the 218th most liberal member of the House of Representatives? Nt

 

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #78)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:08 PM

208. One problem is that candidates are compared and contrasted on the left/right scale

 

The far left candidates have their voices mocked and minimized, while far right candidates have their ideas routinely treated as institutional facts.

Yet the old left/right paradigm isn't sufficient for the modern age. We are now fighting a top/bottom fight.

This is why you see some liberals warming up to Libertarian candidates like Ron and Rand Paul. These guys are working the demand for populist policies, but mixed into a very conservative bias, and Dems are so anxious to hear populist policies that they'll ignore 5 pounds per minute of right-wing bullshit just to pick out a few words about legalizing pot.

If you don't think Americans are desperate for populism, explain the buzz around Rand Paul. He's an idiot, mostly, but he has his finger on the pulse of America.

Better yet, explain how Warren raised more in two and a half months of her Senate candidacy than the average winning Senate candidate did during the entire 2010 election cycle. Liberals need populist candidates with a lefty slant. We need more Deans and more Warrens. We need choices, else we'll drink from the well of the Fake-Libertarian Conservatives.

We also need a long term strategy. Another Census is coming in 2020. We should be working on plans to flip Red State governors and state houses, then turn back the gerrymandering and voter irritation bills that depress and suppress popular votes in those states.

We need to run populist lefties in every down ticket election in every state on the map, starting 2014. Those candidates will them be ready to move into state executive, and US Rep and Senatorial Offices, all in time for the 2020 census, and the redrawing of the map.

It's not enough to vote for the best Democratic party candidate available. We've got to make the best populist candidates available to the Democratic Party. Then we win.

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Response to demwing (Reply #208)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:19 PM

210. There is a lot of pent up demand for a populist candidate.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:59 PM

86. oh, bullshit

 

. . . it's crap like this that seeks to divide Duers.

Is it too much to ask that you stick to telling us what you believe, how you feel, about the issues without giving us your uninformed take on what everyone else here believes?

What a perfect load of shit this is.

Admit it . . . you DESPERATELY want this to be true.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #86)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:36 PM

220. I guess facts are not what they are in your land

 

By the way, it is not what I want... it is what is happening.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:01 PM

88. You call yourself a left wing Libertarian in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022802897
nadinbrzezinski (124,966 posts)

Left wing libertarians.

I know, anybody mentions the L word and immediately Ron Paul comes to mind. Trust me, there are left wing Libertarians. I know one in the flesh and a few post here. The one I know in the flesh has no issue in admiring it. Heck, the word revolution comes out often.

What I find amazing is the contradictions in the political ideology. It s all also about the individual, but agrees with union rights, and higher minimum wage...and home schooling cause the schools are not teaching nothing.

It is amazing, but a window to a different way of thinking
6

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #88)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:07 PM

99. self delete wrong place

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:03 PM

91. Virtually everyone here is a liberal.

 

There is no liberal/conservative divide here.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #91)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:08 PM

100. then maybe I need to change my name to socialist_at_heart because there are many liberals on

this message board that don't follow what I consider to be liberal ideals.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #100)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:10 PM

104. Depends on your subjective definition of liberalism. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #104)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:16 PM

115. Well whatever the labels my beliefs are the same.

I probably am closer to being a socialist anyway because I believe the government should offer single payer health care and free education to all of its citizens.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #115)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:18 PM

117. I believe that as well, as do most people here. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #117)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:22 PM

121. Well from now on I'm also voting that way as well.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #100)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:14 PM

114. LOL.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:03 PM

92. Why, you filthy Communist...

 

I love you... (and you are absolutely right)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:04 PM

93. The good news is that DU is not at all representative of "the left"

 

And with all these authoritarians / third-way-ers running around, it is getting less so.

But the bad news is that our authoritarian colleagues represent where a big part of our culture is today, after 30 years of continuous bombardment by a media that ranges from far right on a good day to insanely right-wing.

Yes, we have a lot of work to do, and we should not waste any time on those who are trying to be obstacles to progressivism on this site. Just ignore them and focus on the things that will move away from total fascism.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #93)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:17 PM

116. What things you going to focus on that will matter?

I hear lots of complaining about those mean old authoritarian 3rd way folks ... I don't see much "action" happening on the "progressive" side.

Obama has been President for almost 5 years ... when do you think the progressives will find a realistic candidate for 2016?

My prediction is that the group you speak of will spend the next 2-3 years complaining about Obama (and other Dems in general), and then wonder why Hillary wins the primary and the general in 2016.

And then, 4 (perhaps 8) years of how evil Hillary is will follow.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #116)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:25 PM

269. Well, actually, there is a lot of movement on the individual liberty front.

 

Many people are making their feelings known to friends and colleagues, their representatives, in the newspapers, etc. And that is starting to break through the authoritarian stone wall. None of these Democrats versus Authoritarians / 3rd-way-ers debates on this site amount to anything. That is a complete waste of time. I have no idea why authoritarians would even bother to hang out here other than to troll, but they are here and are best ignored.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #269)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 08:01 AM

333. So there is a list of legislation being proposed?

On the individual liberty front I mean.

Certainly if there is "a lot of movement" on that front, there is an array of legislation coming forward.

I do agree the debates here on DU don't amount to much.

Lots of over the top outrage, but not many solutions being proposed.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #333)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 08:44 AM

337. SInce 911, there are lots of totalitarians in COngress. That's how we got the Patriot Act after all

 

But absolutely this is changing. There will not be a bill voted on this week, but there is a consensus forming. And it is not just legislatively. Before this is all done, Obama will be forced to take some executive actions to rein in this out-of-control mess. He will undoubtedly offer to do some of that in order to try to kneecap any efforts to repeal parts of the Patriot Act.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #116)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 07:44 AM

329. Hillary will never be President.

Bookmark it!

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #329)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 08:02 AM

334. If she runs, she wins.

Bookmark it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:08 PM

101. So, I am a LABOR Democrat. Where do I fit in?

Our current President is no friend of labor. I will tow the party line on Social issues, but really, I think 85% of the social issues could be solved with a strong labor movement. When everybody can make $50,000/yr and have the option to purchase health and dental, you don't need too many food stamps.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #101)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:31 PM

126. I agree. But, ....

 

50k may be too high with 100% employment. I ran the numbers a couple years ago. GDP divided by working age population was about 35k. The numbers may be slightly different now.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #126)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:46 PM

135. CEOs are making around 400 times more than average workers. Oh, I think $50,000 is MORE than

reaaonable.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #135)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:48 PM

136. My point being, if there is 100% employment,

 

The country does not make enough money for 50k each.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #136)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:52 PM

140. not true at all. Our problem is that the richest people in the country have conentrated the wealth

for themselves. What we need are those words that republicans try to make dirty but are actually very good words, redistribution of wealth. We need to get rid of trickle down economics. It is an obvious failure.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #140)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:03 PM

148. some numbers

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp

age 24-65 - 313,847,465 * 0.527 = 165,397,614
GDP 14991300000000

That is over 90k each. (90637.9459320067)

I apologize. It has been a few years since I ran the numbers. The GDP has gone up substantially since then.

50k each should be doable......

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #148)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:26 PM

161. and GDP might be even higher if we invested in education, jobs, and technology her in the US instead

of shipping jobs to other countries and letting other countries take the lead in state of the art technology. We missed the boat on being a leader in renewable energy technology for example. The same rich people who are concentrating wealth here in the US are making money on other countries investments as well instead of allowing us to invest in our own country. There is much money to be made for American labor if we just stand up to the wealth hoarders.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #101)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:45 PM

197. Yep, and crime goes down

as economic desperation goes down; hate goes down as standards of living go up, etc.

You're so right. It's hard to overstate the case for positive things that would come about with widespread worker solidarity unencumbered by corporate interests or their government friends.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:09 PM

102. This is a revolting op that seeks only to divide

 

and the "acid responses" have little to do with your political persuasion.

I expect this from you- along with all the made up stuff you post.

Ugh.

oh and it's also an incoherent, self-congratulatory mess.

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Response to cali (Reply #102)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:13 PM

111. Zing, arrow, bullseye. nt

 

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Response to cali (Reply #102)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:27 PM

163. "Incoherent, self-congratulatory mess."

Right on. It's her specialty.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #163)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:37 AM

317. Also kind of delusional. nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:12 PM

110. K&R n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:13 PM

112. Yup

"This is a natural evolution in American political history, it's time for the people, the base, to smell the coffee and realize the party of business does not want the lumpen proletariat anymore."

I "sensed" their rejection of "us" and the shift some years ago...and after 54 years of total loyalty, left the Dem Party. For me, remaining a registered Democrat Endorsed what they've become--which is far below expectations, promises and acceptability.
I reject the "New" Democratic Party. They are sub par selfish politicians who use their power as a means to serve only the wealthy special interests while making/breaking "promises made" based upon what they "think" we want to hear--and then go Vote With the opposition . Votes matter for it is the Single way they cannot avoid making their true positions known. We must learn to research their votes, accept the reality of them and forget about political affiliations, demand explanations and be willing to challenge their bs answers (excuses).

"What I am seeing is the beginnings of what both parties fear: voter revolts"

I agree. We, the people are coming together-learning to ignore MSM et al who are still trying & in still too many arenas, are keeping the divisions deep---but it's beginning to crumble---We have a growing number of folks from all walks of life and political beliefs realizing that at the core-we All want the same things.
We are slowing beginning to communicate over back fences all across America...and that is good.
Thanks for a Great post.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:20 PM

118. Why not just have a purity test ...

That individuals must pass in order to gain entry into the party? Then we'll all know that we are all alike and hold no opposing views.

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Response to Ztolkins (Reply #118)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:39 PM

132. I certainly will have a purity test for the politicians that want my vote that is for sure.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:31 PM

125. Of course you don't mind it. You frickin' revel in it.

 

Your post is baloney.

Let's play deconstruct the Nadin claims:

The country is not conservative. The elites are. The elites used to understand that you have to give something to the people from time to time...they are really are not. In fact, they are taking away fundamental rights. So 2014...the ones to blame will be the elites, in particular the party elite of the Democratic Party who has chosen to turn a blind eye to these concerns.

Actually, what the country is a complex amalgam of opposing philosophies and beliefs. No, not all the elites are conservative. If they were you wouldn't have folks like Soros supporting Bill de Blasio- and he's certainly not singular.

Both parties are woefully corporate, but those who can't distinguish between the two, aren't looking. For all it's corporate ties, if the SCOTUS had more Justices appointed by dems, the VRA wouldn't have been dismantled and the CU decision would have been different.

You traffic in broad, almost invariably error ridden generalizations. You don't post links to back up your spurious claims.

I think of you as DU's very own Madame Malaprop.

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Response to cali (Reply #125)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:18 PM

157. +1 n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:37 PM

130. The 5 stages of grief

includes denial. (I am referring to Elizabeth Kubler Ross' work on death and dying-- denial, anger, blame, bargaining and acceptance)

I think universally, humanity is stressed about the state of the ecosystem. On top of that, many governments have been shifting to the hard right, as well as becoming more militarized.

If we step back and observe human beings in their various stages if GRIEF--at a world that will soon be changed dramatically, we can then help each other to cope. Denial is powerful--and it is a waste of time to force people out of this stage.

I think it helps to recognize these very normal stages of transformation-- and that universally human beings are bracing to lose more and more as the planet continues to heat up. We are part of the Earth.

How are governments dealing with climate change? Are they in denial? Anger? Blame? We all feel vulnerable yet few will EVER admit this out loud. But unless we admit --at least to ourselves--what we are feeling, we will be overwhelmed and controlled by that which we deny.

I see the collective US, trying to break out of a shadow government structure--and simultaneously awakening to the tasks that lie ahead. We have WORK to do if we are to sustain ourselves in the decades ahead. We have to find ways to work through our vulnerabilities and stages of grief-- to channel our anger, blame and grief-- and transform this emotional energy into constructing our future.

We have to save seeds, INSULATE the hell out of all our buildings and prepare our infrastructure for unpredictable weather, planting trees and learning permaculture. Learn water saving techniques. These will be invaluable skills in the coming years.

We CANNOT wait for others to do this for us!! Those caught in denial must learn for themselves, and the rest must work AROUND them, all the while stay as compassionate as possible.

I learned this after years of working in trauma rooms-- some people short circuit in that environment and it is understandable behavior. But it should not stop all WHO ARE CAPABLE of performing the necessary tasks from doing what MUST be done.



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Response to felix_numinous (Reply #130)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:15 PM

246. Wise, and it is part of it. This is the part that is unlike any other period in HUMAN

 

history, well except 70K years ago, when it is believed the species went through a genetic bottleneck

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #246)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:57 PM

265. genetic bottleneck you say? THAT must be why I have noticed all these mutants- on the street....

 

dontcha know!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:51 PM

137. You're not dangerous, Nadin.

One has to have some clout to be dangerous. Posting on DU and on an obscure blog doesn't add up to squat. This is just a discussion forum.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #137)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:57 PM

144. Sanity finally shows up.

 

Perfect reply!

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Response to Rex (Reply #144)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:09 PM

151. Lol. Rex, I think that's the 1st

time you've ever linked me with sanity.

I thought about you the other day, when I saw this cartoon. Please don't take it the wrong way. It brought a smile to my face.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #151)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:18 PM

156. LOL!

 

That is hilarious! "Okay....this little spot right here on the east coast...allll down over here toward Florida...these fake trees in the conference room corner...that desk over THERE...maybe this lamp...and those 6 dixie cups by the door. ALL my territory!



What can I say? The perfect reply, is the perfect reply!

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Response to pintobean (Reply #137)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:00 PM

145. but but but but

 

Nadin is a reporter for an esteemed online journal.

Seriously, nice to see your common sense in this thread, pb.

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Response to cali (Reply #145)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:19 PM

158. You know, they still print

those little neighborhood rags in some areas. They've become about 90% adds, with very little content. I imagine they go straight to the recycle bin in most homes. I would guess that the on-line versions don't get much traffic. Especially if they suck.

As to the common sense in this thread...

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Response to pintobean (Reply #158)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:34 PM

166. oh that is too funny. I can't stop laughing

 

and I mean the Michael Stanley poster thingie

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Response to pintobean (Reply #158)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:41 AM

346. Hey, her VROOM VROOM video has 211 views already

 

From 2011, that's something!

&feature=youtu.be

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #346)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:41 AM

363. Well,sure it can do all that in a controlled environment

but how does it do out in the real world, where there are rogue wind turbine blades flying about?

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Response to pintobean (Reply #137)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:03 PM

149. !!!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #149)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:26 PM

160. Love it!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #149)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:26 PM

162. All that data mining and they still couldn't find anything but onesies!

 

Pictures the NSA was very sorry for downloading by mistake and wish they could have a do over;











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Response to pintobean (Reply #137)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:44 PM

172. People read stuff here. That is one way ideas take hold and spread.

 

What is dangerous depends on how those ideas would affect you.
Every revolution starts with one person speaking up, then another.
Something is seriously wrong with this country. How are we supposed to come up with a solution, if people do not put forth their ideas for others to build and expound on?
Nadine is at least trying to build a consensus. You, with your no ideas post are just trying to tear down.

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Response to RC (Reply #172)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:50 PM

174. Nadine is trying to build a consensus?

That's nooz to me. If that's actually the case, she seems to be going about it all wrong.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #174)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:54 PM

175. I enjoy hearing from people who have voted democrat for decades like myself

but are fed up and ready to vote differently in order to get some more liberals in office.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #174)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:18 PM

183. Then why all the REC's?

 

Nadine has her detractors. If she were to post the sky is blue, the grass is green and the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, there are those here that would line up to dispute all of the above.

You seem to be one of them.

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Response to RC (Reply #183)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:37 PM

192. You forgot 'water is wet'.

Some people are oblivious to what she does, some aren't.



12 years at DU.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #192)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:43 PM

195. And yet she is still here.

 

Why don't you have her on Ignore, instead of collecting negative about her?

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Response to RC (Reply #195)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:02 PM

204. Like I was saying...

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Response to RC (Reply #195)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:20 AM

340. Entertainment Value

 

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Response to pintobean (Reply #192)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:10 PM

300. Can't really make it any more blunt or obvious now can he?

 

I wonder if she put Skinner on ignore after that reply?

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Response to Rex (Reply #300)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:21 AM

314. She actually put herself on ignore once!

When you are furiously hitting the ignore button, accidents happen!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:51 PM

138. The country is not conservative...

 

When policies are explained, the policies that are supported are liberal.

The problem is, nobody in the Democratic party wants to explain them thoroughly, simply, and clearly. It's in their best interest, and their being beholden to the same corporations and businesses that Republicans are, to keep the waters muddy and keep those policies vague and not clearly and vocally stood for.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:11 PM

152. There are only a tiny few on your side of the schism.

Ergo, it is more like a chip than a schism. Count the recs on this post and you get an idea of the entire population on one side of the so-called schism. As I have said before, your votes aren't worth seeking, they are so few. Ditching and disappointing noisy irrational people makes the Democratic party look wiser and saner. We will pick up votes by showing that our side's version of the Tea Party is weak.

We true Democrats and true liberals actually thrive on badly reasoned, narcissistic venting from "liberals in complaint only." Please don't stop.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #152)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:55 PM

303. How we make friends and converts not

 

By the way I have covered elections where the difference was one vote m'kay...I would not be that dismissive if I were you. But then again, I exect you to blame the eft...as usual. It's the MO.

You are not worth it, but you are guilty...care to make up your mind?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:13 PM

154. Deep schism vs. lively debate: Wonder who that serves?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:19 PM

159. "The country is not conservative. The elites are." That's what we call a BINGO. nt

nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:29 PM

165. Interesting how history repeats itself. The business unions and the government(s) sided with

 

pro-business and conservative forces to kill off the worker-led unions, the labor movement that existed prior to the late 20's, those that wanted the workers to be in a position to make the decisions. Once they got them out of the way (partially by trying to tie them to socialists, who they really had no alliance with) the pro-biz forces appeared to make life ok for a number of people, (with significant numbers left out) for another 50 years or so.

Then Carter told everyone to grow up and act like adults, so we elected Reagan and began to burn all that we had built for the past several decades. That wasn't enough, and we gave up insisting that we build and improve ourselves, as well as the things we use here, and that handed it all over to business by creating a mountain of debts we owe them, debts we are living on today. We sold everything, (for some that includes their principles, apparently), for pennies on the dollar.

Interesting post. It kind of mirrors books I've read about the period between Lincoln and FDR, and repeats points from some of the people I've spoken with. I suspect one could find whole paragraphs that use very nearly the same words.

Here we are again.

We is a funny people.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #165)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:41 PM

171. history always repeats itself. Right now the rich have hoarded all the money, but eventually the

people will rise up and reclaim what has been taken from them.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #171)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:04 PM

177. Wouldn't bet any money on it.

 


They might riot, etc, but virtually no one is politically educated enough, or knows enough history or finance to actually change it all. Hasn't happened in the entire history of this country.

And that is presupposing they aren't made up of a population of people that have been schooled to be docile little worker bees for a hundred years.

But we are, so I would bet that we will see a gradual decline, and soon be more like India, with vast regions of utter poverty and a million rich people in enclaves both in and out of the country, doing business with the world that is improving its living standards all the time.

Back in the 1900's business wanted people to work, yet they were starving and there was no food. The Salvation Army would sing on the streets that this hard work on earth would result in a reward in heaven. It's as if they were working for the Rockefellers and Jay Gould.

The Wobblies came up with a sarcastic song pointing out the truth, that it was just "Pie in the Sky", that they needed to get their reward now, because the rich were.

That's what this whole "people gonna rise up and take it back" theme is. Pie in the sky. Banks laugh at demonstrators and shower them with McDonalds applications because they are so weak.

I'll believe it the first day I see 1% of our population of 312,000,000 marching in the streets, (not a pitiful 2000, or 10,000. That's nothing, and police can easily re-arrange them). Or 5% taking finance and manufacturing courses with the intent of building cooperative business that will REALLY take the money away from the others.

Until then everyone is just marking time on the plantation.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #177)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:11 PM

181. The first labor movement did it. Corporations will keep driving down wages, and eventually it will

get to a point where you will see people in the streets. We will get there. No one can predict how long it will take, but it will happen again.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #181)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:27 PM

186. The "first" labor movement got it's ass handed to it by business unions (like Gompers AFof L)

 

and the government in league with business. They killed off or sapped the power of the industrial unions (Like UE) who wanted the decision making in the hands of the people, imprisoned them, and co-opted them. Bill Haywood even lived the last of his life in Russia, seeing how pointless it would be to sit in prison for that time.

What was left was GREAT for business, and led us to where we are today.

There is a world of difference between the goals of the industrial unions vs business unions. It would be worth reading the history if one hasn't.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #186)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:32 PM

189. people earned enough to buy houses and send their children to college for a long time.

Of course things were a lot different back then because back then they didn't have to save for their own retirement. They could actually count on a pension and SS to retire. But they did well for a long time. Reagon's trickle down economics is where we really started seeing wealth concentration, wage suppression, cuts to SS and pensions.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #189)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:37 PM

193. They got tokens and no power or control. On a somewhat larger scale than blacks in a plantation

 


owner's home, but the same principle.

Until they get control and power, and ownership, people are just living on the plantation and making excuses as to why it's not so bad.

But excuses are easier to make than fighting for freedom, eh?

"I saved a thousand slaves. I could have saved a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves"
Harriet Tubman

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #193)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:46 PM

198. I agree they could have gotten more. Truth be told my values line up more with socialism which is

far from what we have here in the US. Single payer health care, free education for all, living wages, sick leave, vacation, unemployment. Socialist countries put their social contracts at the top of the priority list. For the US social contracts seem to be at the bottom of the priority list. We must fight for not only what our first labor movement fought for but also fight for more.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #198)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:55 PM

202. The first labor movement didn't agree with socialism. Business and government tried to

 


paint them with that to discredit them, but letter to the organizers that were sent from Russia tell them they were doing a poor job, and the organizers write back - in a nutshell - that most Americans in the industrial labor movement don't what what they are selling. Some of the letters are pretty funny - they get all exasperated with the Americans. 'Course, they were trying to overthrow their own tyrant, different goals and culture.

The Americans, as varied in language and background as they were, wanted ownership and decision-making. Without that, people are powerless to stop what has been happening, in spades, since the people went for Reagan.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #202)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:07 PM

207. well of course they didn't. Back then people were programmed to think that socialism=communism and

communism was the enemy of American freedom. Not as many people believe that anymore.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #207)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:33 PM

218. Just a note however - that whole Red Scare,

 


communists = enemy of America, etc., didn't really start seriously until the 1920's began, after the Russians got rid of the Tsar. The period I am mostly talking about was 1865 to about the mid-20's. Business used the Red Scare to convince those who really weren't participating in the labor movement that they were a bunch of communists and not to be trusted, not to teach the workers that communism was bad. The country at that time was mostly full of (and filling with) immigrants who really knew nothing about much except where they came from. They rejected it because they didn't want state ownership - that was just another plantation owner to them, and too similar to what they left.

They rejected socialism because it wasn't their goal to hand it all over to the state. They wanted to make decisions as workers, a different kind of capitalism than we have today. At least that's what is in the writings that I have found. Maybe more cooperative, like Mondragon in Spain.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:36 PM

167. k&r...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:37 PM

168. This post seems just a Hodge podge of personal anecdotes

 

That have little to do with any actual rifts ...

The commentaries in the OP have little connection to the OP title subject ...

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Response to Trajan (Reply #168)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:19 PM

211. It's her specialty.

Nothing happens until Nadin observes it. An opinion doesn't exist until Nadin holds forth on it. Anecdotes are data and key words turn into pet phrases, even when she doesn't know what they mean. She goes from novice to expert in the time it takes to Google an issue. And she's a journalist, damn it, with her ear to the people and the wisdom of the ages behind her.

Do not question her. A schism is coming.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #211)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:28 PM

213. Continuing my theme for the day...

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Response to Trajan (Reply #168)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:47 PM

225. Nope

 


Yup...the schism on DU is deepening [View all]

Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:36 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)

And you know what? I actually don't mind it, one bit. The fissures were there all along.

And the reality is that uggly commies...err lib'ruls, will be blamed for 2014 and 2016. The problem is...that threat is not working anymore.


(This is truly an evolution I am hearing, and seeing here, and so are others... this is the least easy to prove)

The country is not conservative. The elites are. The elites used to understand that you have to give something to the people from time to time...they are really are not. In fact, they are taking away fundamental rights. So 2014...the ones to blame will be the elites, in particular the party elite of the Democratic Party who has chosen to turn a blind eye to these concerns.


Go argue wiht the atlantic wire among others...

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/03/politicians-vs-constituents-charts/62730/



It's not because Democratic Party elites hate lib'ruls (some do). They decided to become the party of business...that's cool...the US goes through this every so often. Just be open about it. Nature abhors vacuums, so do political systems.

This is a natural evolution in American political history, it's time for the people, the base, to smell the coffee and realize the party of business does not want the lumpen proletariat anymore.


Go argue with this

http://chronicle.com/blognetwork/edgeofthewest/2010/05/20/when-and-to-an-extent-why-did-the-parties-switch-places/

It is a well understood phenomena in US Politics, and it happens every 75 years or so.

Local Labor councils are starting to abandon electoral politics as the end all of the system. Electing pols is no longer their highest priority, why? Card check is often cited...as well as free trade agreements. Behind closed doors both parties are now lumped together.


Go argue here

http://workerscompass.org/democrats-and-labor-a-tale-of-abuse/

and here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/the-democratic-party-elit_b_808058.html

Then we have the current NSA kerfunkle and the name calling on all civil libertarians.

What I am seeing is the beginnings of what both parties fear: voter revolts.

Oh I expect acid responses, it goes with it. I am the enemy of the party, for I am an ugly and dangerous lib'rul.


For this have you been under a rock in this forum? It is but one massive example of that.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #225)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:59 PM

387. My band will name their next album: "For this have you been under a rock in this forum?"

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:40 PM

170. Lol. It actually looks like you're inadvertently bringing DUers together

 

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Response to cali (Reply #170)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:26 PM

278. Seriously...this is the first time you and I have agreed on anything in months...nt

 

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Response to cali (Reply #170)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:59 AM

320. That part really is amazing, isn't it?

However, chances of Nadin herself actually seeing much of the opposing view are slim, because she goes down the line putting one after the other on Ignore. I'm part of that club, and grateful for it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:27 PM

187. The country is at the Center. That is becoming more obvious each day.

Voters at the Center, which make up the overwhelming majority of Americans, will dance with a mildly right or Left candidate if that candidate seem to be the best choice. But a wide swing right or Left will result in rejection. Democrats learned that during the eighties into the early nineties. Republicans are in a similar position now, but my assessment of that party is their down slide will prove to be fatal for that party. Democrats during the eighties and nineties were right on the issues, but ahead the majority of voters. Republicans of today are inspired by deep hatreds, are dead wrong on issues and are permanently alienating the majority of voters.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:30 PM

188. Just wait until we have a Republican in the WH again, and all of these lickspittles do a 180

 

and say, 'I'm right there with ya, buddy-- been with ya all along!'.

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Response to Marr (Reply #188)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:30 PM

251. They are sort of like the crazy cousin that creates a mess, then promise undying loyalty when

the mess become unbearable and must be cleaned up. When sane members of the family have stabilized the mess and are making solid progress cleaning the mess up, the crazy cousin become antsy, that person wants the mess solved yesterday and has no memory of how the mess got started. Such is the far Left that considered Ralph Nader the modern messiah when Nader was busily getting Bush elected.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #251)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:44 PM

256. Thank you for the wonderful example of what I mean

 

I will repeat this to you. The people who are members of CENTRAL COMMITTEES (to be fair on both sides) fear a voter revolt.

Personally the country needs a granger revolt. That is what started the end of the Gilded Age.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:37 PM

190. The fix for this isn't all that complex, though. We just need a new enemy.

We need someone who we can hold responsible for all the NSA issues that is a republican. Then the NSA defenders (really, those looking to defend the administration) don't feel obligated to continue the fight. If a repuke were president now, I think there's be almost total agreement (on the DU anyway) that what is going on is wrong, dangerous, illegal and needs to stop.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:50 PM

199. Meh, looks the same to me.

If there was some golden age when there wasn't a band of conservadems roaming the place blaming liberals for this or that, then I must have come well after it ended.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:31 PM

216. only an internet forum

DU is merely an internet forum.
That is all that it is.
Do not worry about it.

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Response to creon (Reply #216)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:38 PM

221. I don't, for all I care it can burn... it is already

 

but what I wrote about DU applies to the Democratic Party in many towns and cities right now, as in the real world.

On the bright side, there is one, the Republican Party seems for real to be imploding. So when the new party of business makes it official... there will be space for a new party of Labor to rise.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #221)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:41 PM

223. " I don't, for all I care it can burn... it is already'

Personally, I hope DU doesn't "burn".
I like the variety of opinions and all the stories that get posted.
But I guess that's just me...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #221)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:50 PM

227. Need help

 

Please describe the difference between a democratic and republic, political system.
Be concise, if you will.

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Response to canonfodder (Reply #227)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:52 PM

230. You can use the google and get that from wikipedia

 

or take a course in political science.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #221)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:53 PM

232. DU is burning... and you don't care.

Well, shit.







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Response to pintobean (Reply #232)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 03:56 AM

325. Of course it's not. just more garbage.

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #221)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 03:55 AM

324. you wrote a garbled, self-congratulatory divisive mess

 

it applies to nothing.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #221)

Tue Aug 27, 2013, 02:01 PM

391. GOP

I do not count on the GOP imploding. It may; but, I doubt it.
It depends upon who votes and who does not.

An actual labor party would be good for the country and politics.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:49 PM

226. Rec 100. n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:51 PM

228. Wow Nadin you certainly got people talking with this thread.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #228)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:07 PM

238. I hope it is for the better

 

but I think we crossed the Rubicon from what I am hearing on the ground.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #238)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:07 PM

239. I am sure this place will survive.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #239)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:12 PM

243. I am not talking of this place, it is just a microscope in some ways,

 

I am talking on the streets.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #243)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:13 PM

244. Well they say one day this nation will break up, but I hope it is not in my lifetime.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #244)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:16 PM

247. I hope NOT to see it, but I expect it

 

There are multiple reasons for that, fall of empire, climate change... multiple reasons.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #247)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:17 PM

248. Do you think it will be north versus south again?

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #248)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:42 PM

255. No, I think it will be in some ways rural versus urban

 

and also regions... realize PA and AZ (the latter in particular) have talked secession too.

Some of it will be the old lines of the confederacy, but hardly limited to it. If we have an open civil war, it will affect large regions of the country, including parts you might not think off, such as California (talk of a north south, more east west these days) divide.

It is far more, in my view a split between rural areas, and urban areas... the cultures are radically different. Perhaps I am far more aware than most since some of my work involves covering both.

I did not take it, but in front of city hall in descanso you had a flag pole with the American flag and the stars and bars under it, That is not uncommon in rural areas.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #255)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 07:49 PM

260. Well I hope I am dead by that point.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #260)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:53 AM

350. don't worry, that's almost assured. Like most of the op's predictions

 

it's as silly as it gets. And not a solitary soul on DU has the terrible track record on predictions that she does.

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Response to cali (Reply #350)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:28 AM

385. +1 nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #255)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:49 AM

347. Jesus Q. Christ on a Segway, you went from "divide" in Democratic party to Civil WAR!

 




I had to look at what time you posted this...doing singles or doubles?

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #347)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:54 AM

351. she's been predicting imminent civil war for years along with other ridiculous

 

stuff.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:52 PM

229. The schism had already reached rock bottom in the Zimmerman case

The NSA threads feel like a day at the beach in comparison...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #229)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:53 PM

231. Yeah, race tends to do that, doesn't it?

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #231)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 07:50 AM

331. Having been here for 10+ years

it was enlightening to see how many longtime posters outed themselves...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #331)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:31 AM

361. Yup

 

I admit to my naïveté, I expected a conviction to manslaughter.

One of my neighbors explained it to me very patiently. Some things have not changed, why he left the south.

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #331)

Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:21 PM

376. Yup but sometimes

a moment of clarity is all that is needed

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #229)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:54 PM

233. The schism was pretty clear after the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting as well.

There is no denying there is a schism.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #233)

Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:56 PM