Yup...the schism on DU is deepening

[nadinbrzezinski]

And you know what? I actually don't mind it, one bit. The fissures were there all along.

And the reality is that uggly commies...err lib'ruls, will be blamed for 2014 and 2016. The problem is...that threat is not working anymore.

The country is not conservative. The elites are. The elites used to understand that you have to give something to the people from time to time...they are really are not. In fact, they are taking away fundamental rights. So 2014...the ones to blame will be the elites, in particular the party elite of the Democratic Party who has chosen to turn a blind eye to these concerns.

It's not because Democratic Party elites hate lib'ruls (some do). They decided to become the party of business...that's cool...the US goes through this every so often. Just be open about it. Nature abhors vacuums, so do political systems.

This is a natural evolution in American political history, it's time for the people, the base, to smell the coffee and realize the party of business does not want the lumpen proletariat anymore.

Local Labor councils are starting to abandon electoral politics as the end all of the system. Electing pols is no longer their highest priority, why? Card check is often cited...as well as free trade agreements. Behind closed doors both parties are now lumped together.

Then we have the current NSA kerfunkle and the name calling on all civil libertarians.

What I am seeing is the beginnings of what both parties fear: voter revolts.

Oh I expect acid responses, it goes with it. I am the enemy of the party, for I am an uggly and dangerous lib'rul.

[warrant46]

1. They will "Bring It On" (see below)

[Phlem]

2. you'd better make some room

for this ugly and dangerous lib'rul.

Great job nadine.

-p

[truebluegreen]

3. As some of my friends would say, "Not before time!"

The sooner the better.

[xchrom]

4. 'centrists' or 'pragmatists' of the dem variety can go fuck themselves.

they were as instrumental at breaking america as any repuke -- yet they still scream and carry on like shrill children at any notion of independence.

no better than the tea party as far as i'm concerned.

[LWolf]

5. Yes.

[kelliekat44]

384. While others screw everybody else. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. They believe they are part of the elite

And thirty years ago many of them were Rockeffeler Republicans.

[dflprincess]

241. I think they're to the right of Rockefeller. n/t

[DissidentVoice]

16. The bloody DLC

The bloody DLC is responsible for Democrats no longer being Democrats.

[busterbrown]

18. Who the fuck are those people..

Ah, I got it Rammy is a good example, perhaps Corey, and every other Blue Dog Dem. in congress..

[YOHABLO]

287. And Harold Ford

[newfie11]

22. Agreed!!!!!!

[treestar]

24. what about the Republicans

[SidDithers]

52. Republicans get a pass...

only Democrats are evil.

Sid

[daleanime]

70. ........

[lark]

131. Straw man

I have not seen one person on this board saying Repugs are better for the country than Dems, have you? No one on the forum gave Bush a pass for illegal spying, but when Obama does the exact same thing, no condemnation at all is required? This progressive disagrees and cares more for policy positions than personality.

[coldmountain]

146. UNTIL THE GOP IS ELIMINATED AS A POLITICAL FORCE BEING ANTI DLC IS USELESS

ONCE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE NO POWER THEN LIBERALS CAN HAVE A PARTY TO THE LEFT OF THE DEMOCRATS, UNTIL THEN ALL THE COMPLAINERS ARE JUST USEFUL IDIOTS FOR FOR THE KOCH BROTHERS, ALEC, THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY, THE WORST OF WALL STREET, THE NEOCONS, AD NAUSEUM.

LOOK AT THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT THE NADERITES DID IN 2000 AND ALL THE DEMOCRATS WHO STAYED HOME IN 2010 DID. THE 2 PARTY SYSTEM MAKES NO ALLOWANCES FOR COMING CLOSE.

THE RIGHTWING HAS ENDLESS RESOURCES, TAKES THE LONGVIEW AND PLAYS FOR KEEPS. THEY'RE HERE DIVIDING AND CONQUERING US LIKE THEY HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

[lark]

153. Why are you shouting?

I disagree. DLC is not the Democratic party, they may be the money bags, the ties to Wall St & Big Business, but they aren't the party. Can you tell one whit of difference between Rahm Emanuel and a Repug mayor - NO. He's every bit as bad and the D beside his name is a lie. Democrats need to stand for something. Dems are in favor of privacy, civil rights, affordable medical care for all, human rights, good paying jobs, unions, social security, Medicare, good public education, regulating the financial industry so they don't destroy us again. You don't win the war by supporting and promoting Repug positions!!

[coldmountain]

173. THE WORLD WOULD BE A DIFFERENT PLACE IF WE WON 2010 OR 2000

LOOK AT CALIFORNIA AFTER THE REPUBLICANS WERE RAN OUT OF THE STATE HOUSE, IT'S GETTING BETTER. IF ONE DOESN
T WIN. ONE HAS NO POWER AT ALL. WE NEED TO VOTE THE MOST LIBERAL CANDIDATE AVAILABLE EVEN IF THEY ARE TOO FAR TO THE RIGHT, SHOW LEFTWING VOTING POWER AND THE POLITICIANS AND EVEN SOME CORPORATIONS WILL FOLLOW.
DON'T VOTE AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL NOT EXIST!

[lpbk2713]

182. Are you using a teletype?

Just curious.

[greiner3]

338. It must be freezing;

Up there and his/her keyboard stuck

[hueymahl]

341. LOL!

[Javaman]

382. ...

[dflprincess]

242. We did win in 2000

but Gore refused to fight and the Senate Democrats went along with him.

[DissidentVoice]

249. Just as in 1994...

When the Republicans killed Bill Clinton's health care plan he didn't raise his voice at all...he just lay down and let them kick him.

Then we know what happened in the '94 elections and Clinton's subsequent "triangulation" (read: "me too! me too!&quot .

[lark]

375. Psst

Using all caps on a message board is considered shouting. Please use upper and lower case so it seems more like a conversation and less like a shouting match.

Also, I agree you have to vote but it's truly sad when the D is almost the same, just maybe a bit more sane, than the R.

Thanks.

[treestar]

285. Because apparently it is not being heard?

No matter how many times it gets explained, we still have people on "DU" saying to "fuck Democrats."

[Plucketeer]

358. I agree with what you say

The (D) gang in DC are Deceivers, not Democrats. Not any kind of Democrat I've known in all my years. Rham, Arnie Dunce'n, and the rest - how is it they're different from a Rethug? I'm disgusted - fed up even - with what presents itself as the Democratic Party anymore.

[RedCappedBandit]

273. ROFL

[nolabels]

332. &

[loudsue]

355. A Hillary supporter, making excuses for the DLC, and blaming liberals for the election of 2000

That's rich.

[coldmountain]

380. So you say there's no difference between Gore and Bush?

[loudsue]

381. No. You were blaming voters for the theft of the 2000 election.

LIBERAL voters. That is a lie told too many times.

[coldmountain]

386. Who were all those people responding to Nadir saying there was no difference?

[joeglow3]

364. And that is why the GOP will NEVER be eliminated

Both parties rely on the opposition in order to exist. How many times has either party controlled every facet of government and done nothing? Why, when Democrats controlled both houses, did they not increase minimum wage and, more importantly, index it to inflation? Easy: because they want to have the wedge issue to bring up every 5-10 years. If they permanently solved the problem, they could not bring it up to gin up support.

I want liberal candidates. NOT lapdogs of the two parties who are just interested in themselves.

[bluestate10]

191. There is no difference between republican office holders and democratic office holders.

Just ask people in states where republicans gained absolute power, those citizens will tell you there is no difference as Ralph Nader head up the ass, blindly points out. Those on DU that blame democrats for everything are following the Nader creed, blindly.

[treestar]

284. Can't believe that on DU it goes unmolested

"fuck" Democrats. Of any stripe.

[LordGlenconner]

366. Precisely

[zeemike]

150. They play the role of bad cop.

Something to focus on so you don't notice that good cop is selling you out.
Which is a necessary role in this game of triangulation.

[Union Scribe]

200. How are we to fight Republican ideas

when they're taking root in our own policies?

[busterbrown]

294. There has never been one decent republican politician in political office in the last 70 years!!

Maybe IKE..

[Volaris]

316. Or the sane half of Richard Nixon's brain..

[whathehell]

349. Ike was more liberal then than Obama is now, sad to say. N/T

[rpannier]

321. I'd guess for the most part because republicans are behaving like republicans

Since the 1920's they've been the party of establishment big business and corporatocracy
I'd also guess, it's because this is not the Republican Underground
Lots of people don't give a frick about the republicans and their issues, though they too are having them
They decided to have it both ways... fundies and libertarians and now it's biting them in the ass

As I said to a relative of mine who used to be a Republican, "When you try to have a big tent you gotta make sure that every clown doesn't get inside." The republicans welcomed the clowns in and they did what clowns do, they vied for the center ring to be the center of attention

[haikugal]

26. Well said!!

[backscatter712]

36. A-fucking-men. They're not true Democrats. We shouldn't tolerate them diluting our core values. n/t

[coldmountain]

176. SOME SAID THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUSH AND DLC GORE

HISTORY HAS PROVED THEM TRAGICALLY WRONG.

I WISHED WE COULD HAVE WARREN/GREYSON BUT WOULD DIE FIGHTING FOR HILLARY/RICHARDSON

[bluestate10]

206. The people that were behind Nader despite the clear warning signs won't take responsibly

for their actions or the consequences. Yet, some of those same people are demanding that President Obama immediately reverse all the damage that Bush caused. I find their inability to take blame and insistence that they are pure laughable at the best, enraging at the worst. We can never bring back nearly 3,000 people that died on 9/11 due to Bush ignoring warnings of a terrorist strike or the thousands of soldiers that died fighting wars that didn't have to be fought.

[coldmountain]

240. or the dead Afghanis, Iraqis, Pakistanis or the deaths from global warming

Some people just don't understand the big picture

[nadinbrzezinski]

304. The two minutes of hate...

GOLDSTEIN!!!!

[jimlup]

359. You're making a false

equivalence and you know it.

Nader was not the reason Gore lost Florida. Gore was the reason Gore lost Florida. He should have won in 2000 by a slam dunk. It should not have been close at all.

And in the aftermath he should have fought harder to really count Florida correctly. I voted for Nader in 2000 after making certain that my state was safely in the Gore column but I don't fault those who choose to vote their core beliefs without being swayed by this modern phenomenon of polling. It is wrong to start blaming all of the hell of the incompetent Bush administration on the Nader people. It exposes the deep insecurity of the mainstream dems in my opinion.

[DissidentVoice]

250. Would you make your current fight turning off your CapsLock key? NT

[ProSense]

37. Bill Clinton started the DLC, and Hillary was in its leadership. n/t

[arely staircase]

65. Bill Clinton isn't a real Democrat

according to a supposed liberal on an anonymous message board.

[marble falls]

82. Bill Clinton is a moderate Republican.

[arely staircase]

85. lol

[marble falls]

89. For your further amusement.

http://www.kellysite.net/modrep.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x326513


Heck here's one more interesting moderate Republican:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-25/business/35262161_1_individual-mandate-employer-mandate-cap-and-trade

[arely staircase]

95. uh, ok

[marble falls]

107. Here's an interesting one from the WaPo:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-25/business/35262161_1_individual-mandate-employer-mandate-cap-and-trade

[arely staircase]

113. omg, somebody had an opinion in 2011

must be right. I'm taking that Obama sticker off my car right now1!!11

[leftynyc]

328. Because only a republican

Would have put Ginsberg and Breyer on the court. The stupidity of your statement is staggering.

[marble falls]

357. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. Is your definition of stupid anyone who disagees with you??

How about Earl Warren, a Republican justice nominated by Eisenhower, whose most important decisions were the ruling that made racial segregation in public schools unconstitutional. and the "one-man one-vote" ruling that caused a major shift in legislative power from rural areas to cities. Politicians cross party platform all the time. Interestingly, one of Warren's unsuccessful initiatives as governor ofCalifornia was for universal health care.

In 1969, President Richard Nixon named Warren Burger as chief justice of the Supreme Court, and in June 1969, he was sworn in. His court upheld the 1966 Miranda decision, and Burger voted with the majority in the court's landmark 1973 decision, Roe v. Wade, which established women's constitutional right to have abortions.

And Nixon who worked Teddy Kennedy for a single payer system.

Lets face it, the reason I don't like the Affordable Healthcare Act is that its a Republican style response to healthcare - it puts the healthcare into the hands of privately owned insurance companies. What we need is a Democratric response in he form of a Federally managed single payer like GB, France, Canada or Germany.

[leftynyc]

362. Keep your lame arguments away from me

If you think any republican would have put either of the two justices I mentioned on the court, you're also delusional.

[marble falls]

389. Read a little history. you might learn a couple of things.

[Puzzledtraveller]

342. Mr. NAFTA +1

[JDPriestly]

83. Precisely. That is why I do not want Hillary Clinton to be our candidate in 2016.

Bill and Hillary are now members of the wealthy elite.

They could care less about people whose fathers worked in factories and are now working at Walmart. They could care less about young families saddled with the burden of huge student loans. They could care less about people on Social Security, people earning minimum wage, people living in trailers, people who have been foreclosed, people who had to declare bankruptcy, people who are homeless.

They serve a meal to a hungry person every once in a while. They shake a senior's hand. Meanwhile, they negotiate trade agreements and "compromises" about welfare that increase joblessness, homelessness, ignorance, foreclosures and that leave all but the top 10% of Americans behind.

NAFTA, welfare reform, support for Walmart. Those are just a few Clinton policies that, joined with George W. Bush's wars caused so many Americans to fall into poverty.

We do not want the DLC. It has not served average Americans. It has made our lives worse. We want labor, health, trade and anti-trust policies (among other policies) that serve ordinary Americans and not just upper-income Americans.

[Agony]

179. you Professional Democrats somehow think that is a positive...

being a socially liberal Democrat and then fucking us over on the way to the bank.

[bvar22]

205. Bill "started" the DLC?....the meltdown continues.

THIS is the DLC:

Here’s a key piece of information: the Kochs haven’t just given to right-wingers. Back in April of 2001, The American Prospect’s Bob Dreyfuss reported that [font size=3]the Kochs also funded the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC)[/font]


The DLC board of trustees is an elite body whose membership is reserved for major donors, and many of the trustees are financial wheeler-dealers who run investment companies and capital management firms–though senior executives from a handful of corporations, such as Koch, Aetna, and Coca-Cola, are included.

<snip>

[font size=3]Fitting, isn’t it? The entity that tries to undermine the progressive agenda from within the Democratic Party was getting funding from the guys who are trying to destroy the Democratic Party from the outside.[/font]

http://americablog.com/2010/08/koch-industries-gave-funding-to-the-dlc-and-served-on-its-executive-council.html

You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[ProSense]

222. The DLC

was nothing before Bill Clinton.

Remarks to the Democratic Leadership Council
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=46193

Bill Clinton defends DLC role, legacy

Former President Bill Clinton launched a spirited defense of the Democratic Leadership Council Tuesday night, crediting the centrist organization with the successes of his own presidency and his party’s electoral advances in recent years.

“I would have never become president if it wasn’t for you,” Clinton told a packed DLC gala honoring Al From, who is departing as head of the DLC after founding the organization 24 years ago. “You have evidence that what you did mattered," Clinton said.

Clinton’s speech comes at a time when the DLC – a third way group that has long been a thorn in the side of liberals - is undergoing a major shake-up in its ranks, with From handing the organization’s reins to longtime protégé, and former Clinton adviser, Bruce Reed.

But Clinton’s defense also comes as the centrist organization’s relevance has come under question. President Barack Obama has largely ignored the DLC, instead forging ahead with his own style of politics.

The DLC reached the height of its influence during the early 1990s. Clinton, who once served as its chairman, made the council’s policies on free-trade agreements and welfare reform staples of his presidency.

- more -

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23833.html

[DissidentVoice]

252. President Obama "ignored" the DLC?

Maybe so, but his policies have been virtually 100% DLC.

Otherwise, he would have pushed for single-payer health care, followed through with closing Guantanamo, and not signed onto the horrid Patriot Act.

Remember: Hillary Clinton voted for the Patriot Act.

[bvar22]

267. AAnnnnd.....the Melt Down continues.

Your posts contradict each other.
ONE or the OTHER can be TRUE,
but not both.

You say, "Bill Clinton STARTED the DLC."

Then you say,

"The DLC was nothing before Bill Clinton."

Statement 2 is a logical admission that Bill Clinton did NOT "Start the DLC".

A Group of Conservative BILLIONAIRES cooperating to BUY influence in the Democratic Party in 1992 would have found a vehicle whether or not Bill Clinton had ever been born.


You claims defy logic.
Your claims defy coherence.
Your claims defy reason.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[bvar22]

268. "President Barack Obama has ignored the DLC".... LIke THIS!

[font size=5]
The DLC New Team
[/font]
(Screen Capped from the DLC Website early 2009)

[dflprincess]

277. I am so glad you kept that screen shot

How many times has it come in handy?

[bvar22]

378. It has come in handy,

Though some will still try to catapult the nonsense by insisting that its not real, or its all "hype",
or that one doesn't count,
or that it was all the Republicans fault,
or he didn't have 60 votes,
or he has to be the president of everyone,
or something else equally as absurd.

[Capn Sunshine]

310. it's 2013, not 2009

The DLC is defunct, and for some reason, lives on at DU. It's not a secret. There's no DLC any more.

While we're on the subject, as a party wonk, I speak with a lot of people furthering our goals. I speak with Occupy. I speak with MoveOn, which is an official wing of the party. Sometimes I speak with Daily Kos posters , although in an unofficial capacity.

Know who I don't speak to? Anyone from DU.
Do the math. There's 5000 posters tops who espouse the ideas encapsulated by DU, maybe 300 rabid posters here. Out of 62+ million votes

And you know what? over 93 million did not vote at all.

Is THAT where you are getting your vast majority from? Because currently, half the country is far rightward of your mythical enemies the DLC.

[eridani]

311. Yes, DLC is defunct! Long live DLC policies!

Pretty tired of the pimping for the 1% in a party that is supposed to be the party of the 99%

[Hekate]

313. Ouch

[SunSeeker]

323. Spoken like someone who lives outside the little DU bubble.

Wish you'd post more often. The 300 rabid posters have crowded out the home page with their NSA/Snowden/Greenwald posts-- they just keep rec'ing each others' duplicative posts. Meanwhile posts on climate change, voter suppression and abortion restrictions drop like a rock. Traffic on this site is way down

It's sad because I really like the DU format, i.e., being able to post pictures, and the community feel. Do you know of another progressive discussion board with a similar format that is more tethered to the real world? I want to be around people who want to elect Dems.

[TreasonousBastard]

336. I haven't found one, but I have noticed...

that as a local Democratic committee member who is also running for a local office this year-- I haven't found one person who admits to posting on DU. Most claim not to have heard of it. It is a small town, but not that small.

And there's very little talk about Snowden, the NSA, or anything else that brings out the rabid around DU.

Actually, I haven't found too many who post much at all anywhere, except maybe on Facebook, which is now kinda required as an election tool. No time for this silliness that brings no reward. Jobs, family, campaigns... important stuff takes up a lot of time.

Me, I'm here as an escape from that real life where I actually have to work and make sense.

Never forget that this is the place where a Kerry campaign official was hounded out as an ignoramus by anonymous mouth breathers.

[SunSeeker]

353. Didn't know that about the Kerry person. Seems par for the course.

They even flame Alan Grayson posts around here. And you are so right about this place being a huge time suck. I have a family and work full time. I can't justify the time I spend getting into these stupid arguments with anonymous DUers who are disconnected from reality.

[Beacool]

280. Soooooooooo?

If it wasn't for the "third way" that the Left seems to hate so much, a Democrat wouldn't have won the WH in 1992.

[hfojvt]

39. seems to me it was the independents

who gave us George W. Bush, and thus were at least as instrumental in breaking America as any Republican.

Independence is just a stupid notion in an electoral system where 4 is greater than 3 + 2 or even, in this case, greater than 3.9 + 0.2.

To some people it is just kinda important that Republicans NOT get elected and therefor get the power to pass huge, now permanent, tax cuts for the rich, and to invade Iraq and stuff like that.

[JDPriestly]

87. DLC-type -- "moderate" -- so-called Democrats voted for all that stuff.

The problem is that the DLC does not educate people or support Democrats who do educate people about the wisdom of picking the liberal policy alternatives to huge, not permanent, tax cuts for the rich, the invasion of Iraq and the other objectionable stuff.

And as long as the DLC commands the Democratic Party, Americans will not even be told that there are viable alternatives to those stupid policies.

Rahm Emmanuel is tearing the Chicago school system apart.

Across the country, DLC Democrats including Obama's Education Department have joined with Republicans to destroy the teaching profession and the teachers' "unions" that speak for that profession.

Now they are attacking other professions. The working people and their unions -- their professional organizations have already been destroyed.

And, yes, the DLC has brought us all that. The total destruction of the middle class is the goal.

Americans need to wake up.

[hfojvt]

322. actually they did NOT

at least in those two cases.

A majority of Democrats in the House voted against the IWR (thanks to the leadership of Kucinich) and almost none voted for the Bush tax cuts. Bush tax cuts of 2003 passed the Senate by 51-50 with every Democrat and even a couple Republicans like Chafee voting against it.

A Blue Dog like Dennis Moore of Kansas did vote FOR the Bush tax cuts, but that was only for show. First, because he had already voted for Rangel's Democratic alternative to the Bush tax cuts, and second, because the Bush tax cuts were gonna pass anyway so his 'yes' vote was meaningless, except as a way to appease the conservative Kansans in his district.

Yes, I agree that the DLC sucks for policy and message reasons http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022085948

but voting independent or registering independent may mean you cannot vote in a primary (and thus help to defeat the DLC candidates there) and doing it in the general just helps the Republican to win.

Gore was DLC, but he would NOT have invaded Iraq and he would NOT have signed the Bush tax cuts into law. Clinton, the spineless triangulating weasel that he is, signed a huge tax cut for the rich in his 2nd term, but again, said odious tax cut could not have been passed without a whole excrement load of Republicans in the House.

Electing Republicans is almost never a good idea. And voting independent, at best, it accomplishes nothing, and at worst it enables a Republican to win in spite of getting a minority of the votes.

So. yeah, when people threaten to help the rats who will chew America's face off, then people who are paying attention tend to get upset at the thought.

[RC]

72. The democratic version of the Tea-Party.

I agree. This place looks like Conservative Central sometimes, with the OP admiration posts and resulting warm, fuzzy group hugs of the followers.

[leftstreet]

74. +1

well said

[Warpy]

77. I count no more than a handful but they are prolific posters

when we mean old party leftists threaten their feeling of safety by suggesting that overreaching by one or more government agencies is the problem, not any sort of a solution. We're taking their binkies away and they don't like it any more now than they did when they were two.

Fuck them all with chainsaws.

[geek tragedy]

94. Yeah, fuck those people who actually win national elections

instead of getting curb-stomped every 4years.

[JoePhilly]

105. Oh oh ... that's going to go on your permanent record.

[geek tragedy]

108. If only the party returned to the days of losing elections by 300+ electoral votes,

It could be redeemable.

[zeemike]

164. Well the DLC could make that happen

Just keep offering the average wage earner nothing but GOP lite and they will not bother to vote...which will give the GOP just what they want, a discouraged voter base for the Dems.
The reason Obama won was because of what he promised and said he stood for....now we are told that none of that is possible so we have to STFU and vote for them anyway because if we don't the GOP has a monster in the wings ready to eat us.

Sometimes people get tired of being a sucker for that game.

[HardTimes99]

203. When i contemplate the odious prospect of a contest between Hillary and a Santorum, Palin or Cruz,

I know that I shall do my duty, suck it up and do the ethically right thing and vote for Hillary.

Seriously, Zeemike, we may disagree and disagree vehemently with Hillary. But Santorum and Palin plan to put us all in internment camps. Surely you can see that is not a 'game'.

[zeemike]

214. Well I will probably do the same

But that is just you and me, people who will vote no matter what.
But that is not how everyone sees it...I have talked to to many people that just say fuck it, there is no difference and will just abandon the system altogather...and there are lots of them, mostly ones who would vote for a democrat if there was one who offered hope and change.
And they grow tired of being fooled again and just say let the chips fall where they may.

But no Hard Times it is a game, a game of triangulation...one in which they offer you Conservative solutions and bat shit crazy, knowing full well you have to chose Conservative solutions.
If you control the choices you control the results.

[WCLinolVir]

279. Amen to that. Put up the crazies and drop one beacon of hope filled propaganda.

Who will quickly break our hearts when we find that the lies were calculated and the game is rigged. Break our hearts? More like every aspect of our lives and allow our future to be bartered to corporations. We need to put down the line folks. These people could not care less that they are fu***** us. The gay rights,
womens' rights, little tokens that won't mean much when all your other rights are gone, or owned by a corporation. If you haven't done so, a good documentary called The Corporation is a must see. I know it is easier to go into denial than think BO could on one hand care about the gays, human rights, etcc.. and then push through legislation that will be nothing more than a corporate coup d'etat. That should be a sign of mental illness or a duplicity so blatant that it is hard to digest. But somehow the media can't seem to really pick up on the contradiction, or what the implications are. What an insidious piece of work. And he isn't doing it alone. So you have to ask yourself what is the weakness and how can we exploit it?

[zeemike]

288. There weakness it their numbers

They could never win an election if we all voted...and that is why they keep saying this is s Republic not a democracy...they fear democrocy.

Because of all the "little people" got together and acted in mass as one they would not stand a chance.

And that is why they and the media spend so much time on things that will divide us...and the big three are Guns, Gays, and God.

[WCLinolVir]

289. Yes and voter fraud, disenfranchisement is on the top of their list.

[geek tragedy]

219. The DLC is defunct, nt

[DissidentVoice]

253. In name only

Its policies have worked their way throughout the Democratic Party like an infection.

[LordGlenconner]

368. The lack of political instincts in this thread is staggering

Fortunately that ilk is more or less irrelevant when it comes to winning elections.

[grantcart]

379. lol well you have to have a lot of extra time to complain

about people who actually win national elections while the people who are actually involved in the process . . . well you get the idea.

[theHandpuppet]

127. +1

Well said, as usual. And so true.

[Mojorabbit]

134. + a gazillion. nt

[RedCappedBandit]

274. Word.

[Zorra]

276. + 1...I am so done with them. nt

[tblue]

293. Oh heck yeah that's so true.

I have tried to remain civil but I'm starting to feel I'm betraying my inner truths when I don't tell then to go fly a kite. They are the problem--they legitimize this crap and trample on the ONLY people standing up against it.

[FrodosPet]

348. Shrink the tent!

Amen! DLCers need to GTFO of the Democratic Party and quit denying how they feel. Then TRUE Democrats can effectively support and nominate real progressives for a change!

[leftstreet]

6. Nonsense. It's not a 'schism' when it's a handful of people

The majority on DU lean left to FDR left to Seriously Left

A few noisy capitalist status quo supporters does not a 'schism' make

[bettyellen]

20. But but.... It's so much fun to promote infighting....

And read thread after thread about "some people" instead of important issues.
We should just have a forun dedicated to critiquing "some DUers" so other DUers can feel superior. Put a fence around it and let them fling poo all day.

[Cryptoad]

32. You know

who is fanning these flames, heh?

[bettyellen]

45. I think there are lots of people who do, and its fucking boring.

You can kind of tell when they're more interested in keeping flames fanned than discussing their POV. I guess scrappers need to scrap.

[MineralMan]

67. There used to be such a forum. Skinner

wisely chose to close it down. Attempts to fire it up again, however, continue.

[RC]

81. We had that. It was called META.

It almost destroyed DU, till was finally shut down. Most of the worst of the the agent provocateurs then left DU shortly after, or were tombstone for not taking the hint... There are still a few hanger ons around.

[Hekate]

315. They are not truly gone...

Being the intrepid sort, they pulled themselves up by their socks and stayed the course.

[Katashi_itto]

370. What exactly was Meta for?

[zappaman]

371. I think your sig image perfectly encapsulates META!

[Katashi_itto]

374. Gotcha, thanks for the explanation

[Cryptoad]

34. If I was the GOP

I wouldn't start planning the Big Celebration Party , yet!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

309. It's not "a few". Way to rationalize your position.

[FirstLight]

7. I'm ready

can we get a REAL Liberal, non-corporate, pro-Civil Liberties candidate? ...or maybe even a whole party/group/uprising....?

I'm so there, sistah!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. It will take a little time

After all both parties designed state laws to favor them, for that to happen. As the dems become the party of business, the elephants are going the way of the Whigs. Politics abhors a vacuum

[alarimer]

139. I think starting at the bottom, locally, is the way to go.

And the DNC needs to stop promoting corporate types over TRUE progressives.

[BOG PERSON]

8. i am the enemy of the arty

i crash exhibitions and make fun of the pictures that don't look like anything. i drink all the wine and eat all the cheese.

[RKP5637]

10. George Carlin - It's a big club and you (we) ain't in it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017139427

[Kennah]

12. You left out pointy headed and wild eyed, of which I am both

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Hey...in the recent past

I have been called much...much worst than that. So their insults are truly mild at this point...what they will post here.

[Kennah]

21. Commonist might be my favorite

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I am actually referring to pretty

Crude language...trust me, these are mild. The worst they can get away in an open forum is traitor.

[Kennah]

29. Oh yes, the crude stuff is pretty vile, but it often shows the true nature of some.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. It is a mask slipping momemt, isn't it?

[hfojvt]

13. so the Democratic Party will lose in 2014

because Democratic leaders did not give anything to the people

by passing a whole bunch of progressive legislation through the House?

wookay

That makes perfect sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. What most working people know

Is that hope never reached them. They have no time for some inside baseball.

Their lives have not improved...that is what I hear. And if people can't understand that...well blame the idiots who are the lumpen proletariat...that is the classic answer.

[hfojvt]

71. inside baseball?

Democrats have no way to pass any legislation that would improve people's lives. Not as long as Republicans control the House and also have more than 40 willing to fillibuster everything in the Senate.

Yet you want to blame the Democratic Party leaders for this.

As far as what the people "know".

Well at least they have the internet and they can come to DU

where they will learn "it's all the fault of that awful lousy piece of crap Democratic Party."

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. People who are working three jobs

Don't have time for that...part of the problem. I don't blame the voter

[vi5]

142. Exactly.

Most people don't know about the fillibuster details. Most don't know the inner workings of the house in relation to the senate. And most people don't even know a fraction of the obstructionism going on. And part of the reason they don't know is that Democrats with megaphones and microphones don't say it loudly enough.

Blaming the Republicans is like blaming the Harlem Globetrotters for not giving the Generals enough of a chance to win. The fact is the Generals and the Democrats are in on the grift.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. It's my job to know this crap

And at times it's hard to keep up...

[hfojvt]

305. only 5% of the workforce is working multiple jobs

but maybe that too is inside baseball. 7 million people with multiple jobs, out of 142 million employed.

I don't blame the Democratic Party for not getting things done, considering the political reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

306. I don't blame the voters

The Democratic Party sucks at taking care of the messaging.

And no, most voters do not have time to follow the ins and outs of Boehner. Nor do most people watch the span. For that matter it's a minority that goes to city hall.

That is reality.

[bluestate10]

212. It's upside down logic. But it makes sense to some DU members. I prefer being part of the

reality set. Blaming democrats for House republicans freezing up government is insane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

291. Poor kid, they are not blaming democrats

they are blaming both parties for the complete dysfunction of government. This might be too hard to comprehend, but for the people who vote, and don't have the time to spend in every nuance of the political system and when Speaker Boenher called the house to order, or when Leader Pelosi got critical at the daily presser.

Believe it or not, people really do not have time for that. Do kindly look for the popularity of the House in polls... I mean the HOUSE not one party or the other.

The problem is that many voters (potential) are so fed up they gave up on it. Others, like myself, have concluded that we are not represented. And you can argue until you are blue in the face against that logic, in a few districts you are correct, in most you are not.

Oh and before you accuse me of not getting the system... politics is actually what I follow for a living, with fires. You know what we say about them? (And it applies to Congress too), "City Hall, wild fires, both full of hot air and equally destructive."

[liberal_at_heart]

14. I had already seperated myself from the party over education but I read a thread the other day that

Philadelphia is taking a loan to open their public schools this fall. That put the nail in the coffin for me. What kind of party do we have that shrugs off Chicago closing 50 schools and Philadelphia taking a loan to open their public schools? It's no party of mine. I will be paying very close attention to how my state handles funding education. WA has been mandated by our state supreme court to find a way to fund our schools. This will be a test of leadership and I will be paying very, very close attention. By the way, how sad is it that my state's supreme court has to force our state legislators to find a way to fund education? It's pathetic, simply pathetic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. What is happening in Chicago, and Philadelphia, is exactly

What a market party does. Privatizing the military and intelligence are again what business parties do. I expect them to privatize the police and FD to be honest.

[tonybgood]

123. Welcome to the state of Education in Ohio!!!

The funding mechanism for public schools was declared unconstitutional last century and it still hasn't been addressed adequately.

[liberal_at_heart]

178. I am absolutely furious over the state of education in this country.

[backscatter712]

15. What we've got here is a failure to enforce ideological boundaries.

Whatever happened to "Don't be a right winger?"

This is Democratic Underground.

Not Republican Underground, Authoritarian Underground or Fascist Underground.

Are not members of this site expected to hold left wing views?

Why is advocacy of the NSA's violation of our Fourth Amendment Rights tolerated here at all? Anyone spewing that line before Obama was elected was immediately tombstoned for espousing Bushie right-wing neocon talking points. And people spewing that shit should still be tombstoned today.

Why are McCarthyist-style smear tactics tolerated on this site? As the term McCarthyist suggests, that kind of attack is the kind that we'd expect from our right-wing opponents, not our own ranks. Why is it that calling people "Paulbots" doesn't result in PPRs?

We need some enforced ideological boundaries here. It's not censorship. It's providing a shared space for left-wingers. If you want to advocate turning this country into a Stasi-style police state, Free Republic is that way. I'm sure you'll find them more accommodating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. The party as a whole now occupies right of center

On a good day, to right wing. So they are democrats

The mayor of Santee put it this way, after he became independent as the Republican Party became radicalized, the same is happening here. "The party left me, I did not leave the party."

Well the Democratic Party left me, I did not leave the party

[RC]

96. Time for this picture again.

If I were to redo this, I would face the Donkey to the Right. I even thought about doing that when I made it.

[RKP5637]

120. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[PowerToThePeople]

28. rec

[geek tragedy]

97. This is an authoritarian, McCarthyite post and textbook

example of projection.

[NOVA_Dem]

129. A-FUCKING-MEN!

We even have the most prolific apologists totally flip flopping on their own views. We do have an archive and these people held totally different views on NSA, Chained CPI, drones etc. prior to Obama flip/flopping on his positions.

The only people that get tombstoned are the mentally ill <cough>grahm4nothing</cough>.

[Cryptoad]

31. I just want to hear

your explanation of how putting the GOP back in the White house is going to correct the oversight of NSA.

Much squawking, but no solutions given. I am starting to wonder how many of the New Demotarians understand about how real changes are made in our government and all that is evolved in that process.

If not enough to complain and be against something, rather you best be prepared to offer alternative solutions, you expect to be taken seriously!

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I expected this response sooner or later

Bravo

I am not represented by the conservative, or more radical, elites of either party

It that clear now?

[madrchsod]

42. food for thought

my dd shut down this year. in this format it was number two after kos and we were in third in alexa traffic rank.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Taken...but I think voters are realizing this

I have heard a real fear of a voter revolt.

To be fair, from both parties.

[RKP5637]

90. Many people I talk to are fed up with both the R's and the D's, be it right or wrong, they, often

do not see a lot of difference, however, social issues, that is different. Their feeling, both are just interested in $$$$$ and their self-betterment.

[CrispyQ]

345. Yes, the dems throw us a few more social justice crumbs, but economically, they serve the 1%, too.

I've been voting dem, cuz I do see a difference in the two parties. However, I've come to the conclusion that you cannot have social justice without economic justice. Six weeks ago I changed my party affiliation to Green. I'll vote dem when they deserve it, but no more lesser of two evil votes from me. I've been doing that for two decades & it's gotten me exactly what I was voting against. Changing parties is my way of telling the democratic party, "You've taken my vote for granted for far too long."

I have a good rep, one mostly OK senator. The other senator is a repub-lite dem that I'm not so thrilled with. I see that recently he has been speaking out against Citizen's United, probably cuz there's a real repub with lots of cash, getting ready to run against him in a few years. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.

"No matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up." ~Lily Tomlin

[TBF]

184. Yup -

and the scary part is the fascism that will result once the libertarians win the office.

It really doesn't matter if the parties have switched positions (as they have - a few others predicted that along w/you a couple of years ago) if they can't figure out how to represent the people.

Young technology workers (especially male) are already libertarian - they are following the lead of the top dogs in their field.

Unlike Greece we don't have a strong left here (they at least have the KKE). And New Dawn is giving them a run for their money in that country. I can only imagine how easily the shift to fascism will be here.

It's really quite frightening.

[bluestate10]

224. Who represents you? Regardless of whether you approve or not, Democrats or republicans

will lead government and people of your ilk will have no choice but be affected by the policies they implement. I would rather take my chance with Democrats, by light years. I fail to see how anyone that consider themselves progressive would want to risk the remotest chance the republicans will control government when that can be prevented.

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. Yup, that is what worries us

but you ignore most of this. I expect the Elephants to go away... they are imploding. Read on the 1850s and the rise of the Republican Party... and what your beloved Democrats were back then. Then maybe you will understand what I am talking about.

History Sir, is repeating itself.

[valerief]

259. So proponents of TPP are the pro-slavery people and opponents are

the anti-slavery people?

[nadinbrzezinski]

263. Actually you do not realize it, but you got it pretty close

we may not have official slavery around the world, but work conditions in many regions of the world favored by these treaties are pretty close to slavery. So people are not sold and bought... but they are working for a buck a day. In the meantime these treaties are depressing wage scales around the world.

You should read the main critique of slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries among freemen... ah the echoes.

[valerief]

266. I consider it slavery only without the ownership papers.

Thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. Exactly

My apologies

[Harmony Blue]

356. +1 It sure seems that way

local politics are starting to look far more important than Presidential elections.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

360. Two races to pay special attention, and won't be easy

School board and the judges race. We try to cover them, they are very hard to get info, and they are very critical for policy. If you live in a rural area, the local fire board and water board are also critical.

Your city council should be covered by local media.

Last time we had an oh my god he is out there tea party running for judge...and a moderate republican. Yup, we did vote got the republican

[Andy823]

43. Good points.

Don't expect and answer because it won't come. To many here are really good at complaining, yet fail to see the end results of their actions, or they just don't care if their local and state government is taken over by republicans, or if the WH, Senate and House are also taken over by republicans and tea party clowns. It's kind of like the GOP, they attack the democrats and the president, yet they have no plan at all of their own, just fear and smear, or doom and gloom. I never though I would see the same things here on DU.

[bluestate10]

237. People of the ilk that you are mentioning live in a fantasy world where if things get bad

enough, the average citizen will revolt and overthrow government and replace it with benevolent leaders that ONLY think of doing what's in the publics best interests 24-7. Ignore that the fantasy has never been realized once in human history, the proponents of the fantasy sure do. Because of their actions, a GE Bush gets elected and nearly destroy the country, or republicans gain more power and begin to rollback worker, women's and minority rights across the country. But the purist don't give a damn, they purely float above the fray waiting for the fantasy to one day happen.

[tonybgood]

133. You want a solution? I'll provide it.

First of all, do not vote for any candidate that takes money from any corporate entity. Do not elect a member of a political "party". They are bought and paid for by their corporate masters. Vote out of office (any and every office) any politician who does not support ALL of the Constitution of the United States. Do not vote for any politician for any office that supports the Patriot Act, the NSA spy initiative, more wars and more militarization of the police.Vote for candidates for office that approve of term limits; a progressive, yet simple tax code; trade agreements that are beneficial to American workers and consumers; a farm policy not beholden to Monsanto and Big Agri-Business; separation of bank and investment firms; immigration reform and tightened security of our borders; living wage requirements and strengthened Social Security; a single-payer health care system; no more support for "friends" in foreign countries who do not share democratic values; a national defense that is not out of proportion to our own security; and finally, the rule of law instead of executive order.

[Andy823]

143. So my question would be

How do you accomplish this, and who do you vote for? The only way to change things is to get people in office that will work for the people, otherwise nothing changes. If you don't vote for a person in any party, who then do you get elected to make these changes?

[mick063]

209. You accomplish this by not voting for the people that do such things

I thought he made that rather clear.

Nothing will bury the Republicans quicker than being in a power. Americans not beholden to Theocracy, Racism, and Guns hate them everywhere they rein.

A brief price I'm willing to pay to turn this party around. The current leadership will be thrown out due to incompetency if they lose a couple of times. We have to dig ourselves out of a hole anyway. Four feet deeper isn't going to be much different than a couple feet deeper.


Then there is the longshot that some of those Bernie Sanders types get elected and caucus with the Democrats anyway. Time to start building some seniority with those types. It might as well start now.

[Andy823]

215. What he said was

You don't vote for any member of a political party, who does that leave?

I have heard you spout this same BS before when you said we could do worse that Chris Christie. I will tell you once again that allowing any republican in the WH would pretty much be the end of things as we know them. If they got in power it would be a lot deeper to dig out of than "four feet"! Look what happened with Bush. It will take many, many years to dig ourselves out of the "hole" that ass dug for us, and if you think Christie would be any better than Bush, then you really do have a problem.

What you fail to understand is that letting the teabaggers take over congress with a republican in charge of the WH is just plain insane! There is no way we can afford to let that happen. And oh yeah, if the win a "couple" of times there will be no more SS, no more health care unless you are rich, no rights for women, no more unions, no more collective bargaining of any kind, no more minimum wage laws, no more laws to make sure everyone gets to vote, etc. Are you really willing to give all that up to teach the party some kind of lesson?

[mick063]

217. Oh I understand completely

I anxiously await the shit storm of protest and anger that the Republicans will cause.

Here is what you don't understand.

Nothing is going to change until a whole lot of people get really pissed off. People that don't read DU.

Further, 9/11 was the perfect storm for Bush. It is the only reason he was reelected. The only reason.

I'm gambling 9/11 doesn't happen again to save their sorry asses. Without one, I predict one term and they are run out of town with fury.

[WCLinolVir]

281. Voter fraud.

[Rex]

33. This will go over well...

nt.

[Andy823]

38. I just don't see it

How is dividing the democratic party, like the tea party has done to the republican party a good thing? How is calling all those people who do not think like you do on this board "conservatives"? Who decides who is a liberal and who isn't anymore? And no it won't be "liberals" that will be blamed if republicans and teabaggers take control of state governments, and the US government, it will be those who were gullible enough to buy into the right wing BS tactics of divide and conquer. It worked for them in 2010, and they are praying that it will work again. Only time will tell.

[Egnever]

56. Sorry purity is what is important

As you say its working out so well for the tea party we just have to emulate it!

[ljm2002]

180. I don't think that word means what you think it means...

...the term "purity" could be accurately applied to those who believe we must toe the party line 100% of the time or we'll be called paulbots, teabaggers or worse.

Or did you mean "purity" as in "consistently principled"? If so, it is telling that you view it as a pejorative term.

[sufrommich]

40. This is what happens to people who spend too

much time on one internet forum, it starts looking like a real world trend as opposed to the opinions of a small group of posters on one forum on the vast internet,which is what this is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Yup, that's why I spend a lot of time talking to voters

In the real world and labor leaders...it's my job or something.

[Hydra]

119. Looks like you got another canned talking point

Don't we have a list around here somewhere?

[sufrommich]

128. You have a job on a small giveaway paper

with a small audience that covers one small area of the country,you don't have any idea what passes for voters moods outside of that very small demographic, if even then .Labor has not decided to "abandon electoral politics" and to even claim so is ridiculous.

It's spelled "ugly" not "uggly".

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. Yup. Another canned answer

So tell me, how many times a week do you sit at local politics? In fact just walked in from a rally to remove the mayor of this country's 8th largest city...one of the sentiments was to get money out of politics.

There was also some palpable division on that exact point.

So how much politics exactly do you cover?

Don't bother answering, this reporter, who lives and covers politics in the 8th largest market, and a large county with multiple cities...is putting your ass on ignore.

You claimed I talk with nobody but "web people" translated to fantasy people.

Well, not really.

Good bye.

[MineralMan]

41. This is flamebaitish, at best.

There are disagreements on DU. If there were not, there would be no discussion. I suppose you won't see this, but I'm saying it anyhow.

[Andy823]

46. I agree

And like you I am sure it won't be seen either.

[cali]

60. I agree with you- and as you know, we don't agree on all that much

[MineralMan]

64. We agree on far more than you think. It's the presentation

that is the problem, you see.

In any case, this thread is a return to the old Meta bashfesting that was ended some time ago. It does nothing to benefit DU, but merely serves to deepen the very "schism" the OP is talking about. Unfortunate.

[RC]

141. The growing schism on DU has a whole lot to do with the Left Wing of the Republican Party passing

themselves off as Democrats.
Accentuated by the fact that BOTH political parties are far to the Right of where the were 50 years ago.
We need to face up to the fact that the Democratic leadership is to the Right of the Nixon Republican party. Yet still we call them Democrats, so we are suppose to support them in their ever drift to the Right? Don't think so. The rebellion has to start somewhere. It starts with one person stating their objections and others joining in the resultant discussion, to build consensus on how best to right the obvious wrongs. It is called Grass Roots. The real Grass Roots. Not the artificial turf we are given to play on by our 'leaders'.
In other words the Big Tent on the Left needs to be purged of the problem people proposing more of the same, as the solution to the problems that they themselves are causing.

[cali]

147. There are a lot of problems with trying to compare the republican party of

40 years ago to the democratic party of today. Nixon's republican party was every bit as racist if not more so than today's republican party for example.

I don't buy the comparison. I think it's much more about the creeping corporate influence/control on both parties than anything else.

[Skidmore]

169. Yes. This. And it is unfortunate.

[Number23]

275. Absolutely it is. And the "fuck pragmatic people" comment at the top of the thread

with a half dozen braying high-fives just cements it.

There is a name for people that hate moderates. Rhymes with "pextremists" but I can't remember it...

[Agschmid]

298. I agree. Lots of it today.

My agreement will also most likely not be seen.

[Hekate]

318. As she tells us repeatedly: she does follow fires.

[SidDithers]

44. Fuck Ralph Nader...nt

Sid

[Howler]

47. Yup!

That's what appears to be going on with the liberals that I'm friends with and associate with here in Dayton Ohio nadinbrzezinski.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. That's what I am hearing from locals

Including labor leaders. Card check and TTP figure highly in the lists of disappointments.

[Howler]

58. I have NEVER in my whole polictical life

Seen what is happening now happen. I am 54 years old and have ALWAYS voted democrat but to be quite frank The national party has left the democratic values and the people far behind. I have taken very serious note of the socialist party that has been on the last couple of tickets for the elections. I think a lot more people around here are too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I was talking to a local central Committee member

Realize Cali's largest voting block, and it's growing, is the independent voter. She did say it, the Democratic Party all the way to the state level, as well as national, is afraid of a voter revolt. A republican repeated that too over coffee.

Neither party elite understands what is going on. But sure voting blocks are pulling back.

The dem admitted the problem is the political bubble. Reps from minority districts have less of an issue with the bubble, but they also have a lot less real power.

[Howler]

80. OOOO! I believe it.

We still have Sherrod Brown here in Ohio to vote for . He has a proven track record.
Man I'm telling ya the People from the democratic party that phone right before election time are hearing it here too. By the time they got around to calling me this last election She must have been at her wits end! She Slammed that phone down so hard it made my ears ring. HHHHOOOWWWLLLLLL! I simply told them that until they started acting like democrats instead of republicans they could no longer count on my vote. Whew!

[Howler]

84. To clarify

That was this last national election in 2012.

[nadinbrzezinski]

312. I know

I got two reasons for them to stop.

I am a reporter, and I don't want to hear it. I think they finally got it when I pulled the press card...for real.

[RKP5637]

124. I feel much the same, and I'm a fair bit older than you, this is nothing like the

democratic party I joined when 18, over half a century ago.

[liberal_at_heart]

185. you most certainly are not alone.

[Egnever]

51. LOL We are all victims!

We have no control of the government we get! Everyone wants the leadership we do they just dont vote for it!

What a load.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Kudos for the acid response

Expected.

[Egnever]

54. My pleasure and thanks for the vapid post!

Also expected.


Your turn.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Good bye

[sad-cafe]

98. and another one down

and another down.

[cantbeserious]

57. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[Skip Intro]

59. When those who are sworn to uphold our rights and the Constitution

Last edited Wed Aug 21, 2013, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)

choose instead to violate, in such a cavalier and arrogant manner, many become enraged, as they should, while others demand blind faith and purity oaths.

We saw most of the repubs in some strange daze back every attack on the Constitution by bush. We see the same thing from many Dems and DUers in regards to Obama. And they all insist everyone join in the blind worship, else the attacks and name-calling begin.

I could give a damn less about labels at this point.

When you're not doing the basic and paramount thing you have sworn to do, you don't have my vote, my support, I don't care what letter comes after your name on the ballot.

[geek tragedy]

103. WE were right to reject YOUR pimping of the IRS nontroversy.

Just like we are right to reject your fake claims that Democrats/Obama tried to take away everyone's guns.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022958442

The same federal government that secretly kept tabs on media phone lines, and used the IRS to harass and intimidate political dissenters, and did indeed try to "come for your guns," are also bugging your phone calls and texts. You KNOW the same is true with email and probably any electronic communication. DHS just announced that a "hunch" is enough justification to physically search your laptop or cell phone.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2839312

25. You're dismissing the IRS story?

It is ok for the government to use its power and authority to stifle political dissent?

That's ok?

That makes us Democrats, and members of the reality-based community. You're welcome to join us.

[Skip Intro]

245. As if to prove my point.

By the way, why would Lerner, who said she had done nothing illegal yet took the Fifth, offer to talk if given immunity? Now why would she want immunity?

I mean, come on. I've been a Democrat for decades, but I didn't check my brain at the door.

You don't speak for the party, gt. And you don't get to tell anybody else what they may or may not think and say. Climb down from your imaginary throne, gt, nobody's going to bow to you.

[geek tragedy]

301. You and Darrel Issa are two peas in a pod on that score. nt

[Skip Intro]

302. Que the shallow name-calling in place of substance.

Like clockwork.

[Jackpine Radical]

61. Somewhere around here there's this wonderful poll

that found 80% of "liberal Democrats" approve of Obama.

Well, I feel betrayed in some major ways (e.g. Chained CPI, TPP), while at the same time acknowledging some notable successes. The ACA is not what I would wish for in an ideal world, but it is far better than what exists now, and many people will get coverage who couldn't access it before.

But there is no way for me to express the complexities of my attitude toward the Administration in a phone poll. Even though I have major problems with the Administration's policies, if a pollster were to call me & ask if I support Obama, I would say I do.

I would say this because the poll starts out with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with Obama is doing so from the Right, not the Left. They don't even acknowledge the existence of people to the left of Obama. They give me no option to express my unhappiness with him from a leftist perspective.

If I say I am unhappy with him, the pollsters will take for granted that I'm unhappy because his policies are "too liberal." Therefore, the least inaccurate response I can give the pollster is to say that I'm thrilled with Obama. And I damn well bet that a whole lot of that 80% made the same calculation.

[RKP5637]

106. That sums up my feelings. I am to the left of Obama, but I support him. I am part

of that 80%.

[KoKo]

290. Indeed...what you express is what's wrong with polls that don't capture

NUANCE!

I'd answer the same as you...but, I'm now way to the Left of Obama as I see him moving forward into his Second Term.

[Hekate]

319. I'm also part of the 80% self-identified liberal Democrats who approve of Obama

That was a very encouraging poll, wasn't it? I agree with you though that participating in polls is tricky because they are so pared down, and don't offer any nuance.

[baldguy]

62. And what about the people who compare Obama unfavorably with Nixon & Cheney?

They self-righteously claim the mantle of Liberalism & paint the enemies they've created - those who warn against trusting unrepentant liars like Snowdon & Greenwald who give only lip service to "civil liberties" - as nothing but totalitarians. Yet their allies are the Drs Paul and the worst kind of Teanaggers.

[MisterP]

63. there's also different structures of leverage between the parties: the GOP is

well-defined since 1978/80: right-libertarians, big business, the religious Right, and militarists: each of these is basically their own camp, with resources, alliances, threats to depart, control of party primary balloting or infrastructure; GOP leaders are fractious, their voters lockstep: the party is shaped like a square or diamond, with the candidates running around in the middle
the Dems are built more like a grid--lots of levels as the "rows," lots of constituencies as the "columns": it brings together unions, a preponderant chunk of minorities, consumer and environmental protection, gays, people who know what it's like to actually be shot, a lot of veterans, the elderly, Constitutional-rights, antimilitarists, etc., and sets itself as these groups' only possible representative--and indeed there are even Senators who do usually represent these interests. However, since these constituencies have nowhere else to go, since the GOPers typically mock the very existence of these groups and the likes of Amash and the Pauls champion their causes exactly once a year (I counted), they have NO leverage. If a Dem loses, the Pub enacts bad policy; if a Dem wins, they often share ideology and interest with the Republican party and are free to enact the same bad policy. Since Tip O'Neil's departure (and he himself often conceded the necessity of the Cold War and its attitudes) and the NAFTA vote (almost half the Dems and almost half the Pubs voting against) we've seen the formation of a new political class: the Republicans tried to bring Clinton down by every means possible and damned him as a Red, but all his policy initiatives resonate with the Contract On America (which I've seen praised on DU). This class fights with itself harder than the Capitol did in the 40s-80s, and yet ends up swimming in sync on policy.

[OregonBlue]

68. Whatever. Why are you trying to pick fights? It's not helpful. Instead of trying to divide us,

why don't you spend your time trying to unite people against the real enemy which is the Tea Party, the KKK types, the John Birch types?

[MineralMan]

69. Whose fight this is I think I know.

Their house is in the village, though. (Sorry, Robert...)

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Pointing out facts is hardly picking fights

Perhaps in your mind it is. The first step to any solution is problem identification.

This is what I was told once, but hey, maybe we are wrong...which I think it is actually part of the problem...realizing that indeed we have a problem.

[OregonBlue]

79. And you know what? I actually don't mind it, one bit. The fissures were there all along.

Sounds to me like you are picking a fight and enjoying it. Why not try to bring people together instead of drive a wedge?

[Hydra]

122. Where is "together"

When we have a split over Left and Right values? Do we only violate the Constitution sometimes? Blow up half as many kids with drone strikes? Invade half of Iraq or Iran and let half of the oil companies rape the place? Do half single payer and half free market?

We have different parties for a reason. The fact that they are both adopting the same bad policies means that people like Nadin and I ask for a sea change, or we have to leave and form a new party.

Which would you prefer?

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. Go take a poli sci class

And learn the most basic of politics. Learn what the term coalition means and what happens when they fracture

[RC]

155. What about the enemy within?

How can we best fight the visible enemy, while ignoring the enemy within?

[DevonRex]

272. NADIN started the LIBERTARIAN bullshit. She proudly claimed to be one.

She claims to be a left wing libertarian. And all SORTS of people said, "I'm one, too!" And they also happen to tout A policy or two by Ron/Rand and then get all HUFFY when people start wondering.

WELL, if you announce to the world you aren't a Democrat any longer, that it's "freeing" not to be one anymore, and post Rand Paul shit, you brought it on yourself, Nadin.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022802897

[fadedrose]

339. Nadin is not dividing us...

The fight is very basically between the pro-Hillary and the anti-Hillary camps of the divisive party.

Many of us are progressives and will never see eye-to-eye with the DLC people even if Nadin changed her tune to how very happy we all are with the party.

The wealthy and the prowar people have been given too many breaks and what they earn for what they do is scandalous but is okay because of joined Rep and Dem votes in the Congress...

I still can't say I don't like Obama. I do, very much, but wish his closest advisors were not some of the people I see near him.

Why oh why could he not have picked Dean for some WH job? (I know why, the DLC hates Dean)....

[demwing]

76. I agree, but what comes next?

Smell the coffee? Done that. Hell, I'm drinking the coffee.

What's your solution?

Strike?
Riot?
Create a new party?

How do the lumpen proletariat defeat the party elite?

[liberal_at_heart]

78. We stop buying the lies being told to us. We keep being told that there aren't enough of us or that

our candidates can't win. It's a self fulfilling prophesy. People tell us this and we say "okay" and continue to vote for democrats who cater to the rich and powerful. If we would just start voting the way we want to vote there would be enough of us and we would have candidates that could win.

[geek tragedy]

109. Who's the 218th most liberal member of the House of Representatives? Nt

[demwing]

208. One problem is that candidates are compared and contrasted on the left/right scale

The far left candidates have their voices mocked and minimized, while far right candidates have their ideas routinely treated as institutional facts.

Yet the old left/right paradigm isn't sufficient for the modern age. We are now fighting a top/bottom fight.

This is why you see some liberals warming up to Libertarian candidates like Ron and Rand Paul. These guys are working the demand for populist policies, but mixed into a very conservative bias, and Dems are so anxious to hear populist policies that they'll ignore 5 pounds per minute of right-wing bullshit just to pick out a few words about legalizing pot.

If you don't think Americans are desperate for populism, explain the buzz around Rand Paul. He's an idiot, mostly, but he has his finger on the pulse of America.

Better yet, explain how Warren raised more in two and a half months of her Senate candidacy than the average winning Senate candidate did during the entire 2010 election cycle. Liberals need populist candidates with a lefty slant. We need more Deans and more Warrens. We need choices, else we'll drink from the well of the Fake-Libertarian Conservatives.

We also need a long term strategy. Another Census is coming in 2020. We should be working on plans to flip Red State governors and state houses, then turn back the gerrymandering and voter irritation bills that depress and suppress popular votes in those states.

We need to run populist lefties in every down ticket election in every state on the map, starting 2014. Those candidates will them be ready to move into state executive, and US Rep and Senatorial Offices, all in time for the 2020 census, and the redrawing of the map.

It's not enough to vote for the best Democratic party candidate available. We've got to make the best populist candidates available to the Democratic Party. Then we win.

[liberal_at_heart]

210. There is a lot of pent up demand for a populist candidate.

[bigtree]

86. oh, bullshit

. . . it's crap like this that seeks to divide Duers.

Is it too much to ask that you stick to telling us what you believe, how you feel, about the issues without giving us your uninformed take on what everyone else here believes?

What a perfect load of shit this is.

Admit it . . . you DESPERATELY want this to be true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. I guess facts are not what they are in your land

By the way, it is not what I want... it is what is happening.

[DevonRex]

88. You call yourself a left wing Libertarian in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022802897
nadinbrzezinski (124,966 posts)

Left wing libertarians.

I know, anybody mentions the L word and immediately Ron Paul comes to mind. Trust me, there are left wing Libertarians. I know one in the flesh and a few post here. The one I know in the flesh has no issue in admiring it. Heck, the word revolution comes out often.

What I find amazing is the contradictions in the political ideology. It s all also about the individual, but agrees with union rights, and higher minimum wage...and home schooling cause the schools are not teaching nothing.

It is amazing, but a window to a different way of thinking
6

[cali]

99. self delete wrong place

[geek tragedy]

91. Virtually everyone here is a liberal.

There is no liberal/conservative divide here.

[liberal_at_heart]

100. then maybe I need to change my name to socialist_at_heart because there are many liberals on

this message board that don't follow what I consider to be liberal ideals.

[geek tragedy]

104. Depends on your subjective definition of liberalism. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

115. Well whatever the labels my beliefs are the same.

I probably am closer to being a socialist anyway because I believe the government should offer single payer health care and free education to all of its citizens.

[geek tragedy]

117. I believe that as well, as do most people here. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

121. Well from now on I'm also voting that way as well.

[DevonRex]

114. LOL.

[AzDar]

92. Why, you filthy Communist...

I love you... (and you are absolutely right)

[BlueStreak]

93. The good news is that DU is not at all representative of "the left"

And with all these authoritarians / third-way-ers running around, it is getting less so.

But the bad news is that our authoritarian colleagues represent where a big part of our culture is today, after 30 years of continuous bombardment by a media that ranges from far right on a good day to insanely right-wing.

Yes, we have a lot of work to do, and we should not waste any time on those who are trying to be obstacles to progressivism on this site. Just ignore them and focus on the things that will move away from total fascism.