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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt is difficult to be on DU now, given the anti-Palestinian rhetoric. Enough said.
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SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)door neighbour, who has been given preference, is now controlling you. Will you be happy with that? The problem is that both should have been recognised as a State.
SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)LGBTQ is next on their list of shit behavior. Not retaliatory - a way of dogshit Hamas living.
Happy or not, I wouldn't go over to my neighbor and put a knife in his infant's heart.
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts),,
SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)his own people to get more money from supporting countries. Do I believe that shit? Hell no. Please make a donation to ROLDA, they are looking for donations to feed the stranded pets in Ukraine. Thank you.
SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)
Celerity
(48,818 posts)Btw, you do realise that many people at raves (like the one Hamas attacked and slaughtered 260+) wear headbands, so your statement is not only racist, but is incorrect as well.
SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)Celerity
(48,818 posts)
SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)Celerity
(48,818 posts)SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)
demmiblue
(38,141 posts)Celerity
(48,818 posts)you were clearly referring to Arabs
let's change the groups and use the same linguistic construct and then you tell me it is not racist as well
Blacks:
anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty do-rag
Asians:
anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty sedge hat
Jews:
anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty yarmulke
Sikhs (and other ethnic/racial groups)
anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty turban
Mexicans:
anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty sombrero
spare me the sophistry
Mossfern
(3,633 posts)I never considered 'sweaty' as a pejorative to to any specific group (rce/nationality) of people.
Celerity
(48,818 posts)btw, it's a different type of pejorative construct (Cockney rhyming slang), but try calling a Scot a sweaty to their face and see how that likely turns out for you
Mossfern
(3,633 posts)I guess it can be construed as an insult to headbands.
This is a pretty silly debate.
Celerity
(48,818 posts)it's pretty problematic what people are willing to support or write off if the person making the ill-conceived statement simply happens to be perceived as being on their side in terms of the subject at hand
brush
(59,335 posts)
obamanut2012
(28,348 posts)What is wrong with you???
yardwork
(65,939 posts)What did you expect?
JI7
(91,594 posts)SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)
atreides1
(16,585 posts)You know who else believes that gay people must die, or at least be imprisoned...certain Republicans, most conservative Evangelicals!
A lot of MAGA's think gay people should die...I guess what I'm saying is that Republicans, Evangelicals, and MAGA's have more in common with Hamas, then they're willing to admit!!!
Straw Man
(6,851 posts)door neighbour, who has been given preference, is now controlling you. Will you be happy with that? The problem is that both should have been recognised as a State.
Hamas is the single biggest impediment to a two-state solution. Were you not aware of that?
Hamas is a spin-off of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that was engaging in political violence before the the state of Israel even existed. The Palestinians are as much victims of Hamas as they are of Israel.
Enough of terrorist apologetics, please. The best thing for the Palestinian people would be for Hamas to be destroyed and for a two-state solution to be implemented, along with full civil rights for Israeli Palestinians.
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)and out of Palestine. I am not an apologist for Hamas but fair is fair. Why is Israel controlling Palestine and netenyahoo continues to build settlements on the Gaza Strip. You go read up on history and don't lecture me.
Even when UNESCO tried to help Palestinians educationally, the US pulled its funding and so did our asswipe prime minster harper. How do people like you defend such atrocities?
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,671 posts)in 1948, same as Israel. At the urging of their neighbors, they rejected that state, assisted their neighbors in attacking Israel.
Bad decision.
PJMcK
(23,387 posts)… has never missed an opportunity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I’ve heard this comment going back to the 1960s.
This conflict is without a solution. It will be Hell forever.
Response to PJMcK (Reply #41)
Post removed
Autumn_Angler
(44 posts)Arafat made a career of inciting infidatas, terror attacks and even entire wars whenever a peace proposal was on the table.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)They have not been in Gaza since 2005. Why are you spreading such misinformation?
Straw Man
(6,851 posts)What part of that do you not get? You absolutely are an apologist for Hamas. It is literally what you are doing right now.
There haven't been Israeli settlements in Gaza since 2005. You might want to get your facts straight before you tell me to "read up on history."
Pulling funding from UNESCO may have been a stupid political move, but it hardly qualifies as an "atrocity."
PufPuf23
(9,350 posts)Not so sure that a single state is in the realm of possibility at present.
Don't know solution but don't like what is happening.
POTUS Biden is walking a fine edge, my impression is to dampen present carnage and find solid ground to move forward.
elias7
(4,221 posts)Fundamentalist Islamic terror groups have more to do with their rejection of “western values” as a stimulus for their holy wars against the non-Islamic. The narrative that Hamas is a result of Israeli atrocities is worth your studying a non-biased account of the history of the region.
The first so called Palestinian terror group was the PLO, founded in 1964 when Egypt controlled Gaza.
And so called Palestinian people have had the opportunity to declare a state for themselves - in 1937, 1947 and at least a half dozen times since then, as their living space has progressively lessened as a result of constant attacks of surrounding Arab nations attacks against Israel. Arafat famously left the table at Camp David where a two state solution was so close to start the 2nd intifada, which again framed the Palestinians as the victims when in fact they are pretty much indistinguishable from the other nomadic Arabs that found themselves in invented borders of new countries - Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, etc.
The whole terrorist phenomenon sprang up after 4 failed attacks by these newly formed arab nations because they did not want a two state solution - 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 - and the realization that the Jews would not be driven to the sea. This was an intentional narrative shift which has resulted in somehow Israel being called the bully of the neighborhood, though basically surrounded by 20 arab and Islamic nations in the region.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)as it has become so emotional.
Your response added value to the commentary.
Hamas is a symptom.
The peoples of Palestine have not been governed like other nations in the relatively recent past. The Middle East has always had the disparate views of Shia and Sunni cropping up in the discourse.
What you didn't address was the introduction of a new state into that world that was aligned with the west, in fact established by the west.
How were those living there supposed to respond to this intrusion.
Arafat was coaxed to defy the two state solution by his allies around Israel. We, in the west, thought him a fool. As it turns out, it might have been better than nothing.
Western culture has been built on usury. The Quran admonishes usury as undermining society.
Iran is Shia, steadfast in its resolve against westernization. Saudi Arabia is Sunni, merging into the banking world of the west.
Israel and of course the US, is in the middle.
Hamas is a proxy for Iran. Ironically, they are Sunni. Hezbollah is Shia.
Anyone who loses sight of those distinctions and influences in the region are missing the politics as it plays out.
Israel isn't going away. Neither are its surroundings.
Blinken has his work cut out for him, because his state department knows of what I speak.
So do a lot of educated young people.
brush
(59,335 posts)cachukis
(2,973 posts)territory and we are where we are. They will not regress after the Palestinian attacks. It appears to be their intention to control against any aggression against their state. You can't blame them.
We are here and the Palestinians are there. We know what Israel wants.
What is to be done with Gaza and the West Bank?
Palestinians have had opportunities for peace, although short sticked.
They are under a blanket of distrust with no escape.
The US is stuck with its treaties, but its humanity is challenged by critics at home and abroad.
Politicians have a choice, defend a reasonable response to the crisis and American interests or play games to advance power plays.
The world is watching.
brush
(59,335 posts)cachukis
(2,973 posts)brush
(59,335 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 5, 2023, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)
"But they didn't and it is done. Now what?"...sounds kind of like, ok, I took you possession, what are you going to do about it?
cachukis
(2,973 posts)This is in Israel's hands, but they are committed to expunging Hamas. Unless he is ousted, and he represents stability in a time of crisis, the Israelis have some tough choices ahead.
Biden and Blinken cannot afford mistakes here. We are bound by our Constitution to honor our treaty with Israel. But if Biden's support falters we get to watch our own autocracy make money off our return to greatness.
brush
(59,335 posts)for the colossal intel failure of not detecting Oct. 7 and moving to combat it.
Who knows what will happen then? Things have had to start from scratch all over again in that region so often, I don't know if there's a driving force/honest broker strong enough to start two-state negotiations again...and to see them through?
And we have to say, we, the US, are not an honest broker candidate as we're the source of the overwhelming weapons advantage Israel is using in their (gotta say it) over-retaliation in Gaza.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)does not want to express culpability, nor do many here.
We are in a quandary as innocents continue to die.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)Gaza more than what will happen in the immediate future and who will stop Likud and its support of expanding settlements in the West Bank?
We are attached at the hip right now.
The emotions are playing out in the square and here on DU.
The why's are basically moot. We are not going back. Will either side atone for their perceived sins?
Who will be the adult in the room? So far, no one.
Dorian Gray
(13,783 posts)was caused by Israel?
No thank you.
We need to reckon with who Hamas is and why they're in power.
It seems to me that they've been abusing the Palestinian people, and if we were truly pro-Palestinian, we would want to work to eradicate their leadership.
Arab countries and Western organizations who purport to want what is best for the general population of Palestine NEED to look into their own consciences.
Israel isn't the demonic bad guy. No matter what you want to believe.
There is a place to hold a conversation about propping up Hamas at the expense of other Palestinian leadership. (Netanyahu has been complicit in this.). Israelis need to examine their consciences when they vote for new leadership.
But I absolutely outrightly reject that Israelis are responsible for the attack against them. Hamas is responsible. They performed atrocities. Nobody could force someone to commit acts like that.
EX500rider
(11,763 posts)But the Palestinians with all the surrounding Arabs help decided to try to take it all and it didn't work out.
marybourg
(13,311 posts)the pro-Palestinian far left.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Is anti-semetic bullshiit.
There is only one side intent on finishing the holocaust and committing genocide.
marybourg
(13,311 posts)There were supposed to be two states, but Palestine refused to declare itself a state, choosing instead to join the Arab countries in attacking Israel as soon as *it* declared.
And it has stubbornly continued to do the same thing for 75 years, continuing to cut off its nose to spite its face and falling further and further behind the rest of the world and blaming Israel for defending itself. This is the behavior of the Palestinian PEOPLE, not just their leaders.
totodeinhere
(13,585 posts)And saying that does not infer any anti-Palestinian bias.
Cha
(308,882 posts)Slaughtered Babies.
GD Hamas and those who apologize for them.
It's not "difficult" for me to be on DU fighting for our Rights against Magats and Fighting against gaslighting the Hamas Attacks on Israel.
wnylib
(25,204 posts)when you post a totally untrue flaming statement.
The reason that there are not 2 states is because Palestinian Arabs rejected the UN vote in 1947 to partition Palestine into 2 states. Instead, they launched terror attacks on Jews to drive them out of Palestine so they could claim all of the land. It's historical fact that you can easily find by looking up reliable historical references.
Jews in Palestine accepted the UN vote and declared independence in 1948 as the modern state of Israel. Palestinian Arabs then launched all out war against Israel and lost. Israel drove some of them out, but the majority fled, civilians because they did not want to live under an Israeli government, and combatants because they wanted to regroup and carry out their mission to eliminate Israel and Jews. That's where the refugee camps came from.
But some Palestinian Arabs remained and their descendants are 20% of the citizen population of Israel today.
Palestinian militants have been carrying out terror attacks on Israel ever since. They joined with surrounding Arab countries to fight wars against Israel in 1967 and 1973. Terrorists from Gaza carried out attacks so often that Israel closed the border with Gaza and set up check points to protect Israeli citizens. Egypt closed its border to Gaza in order to prevent terrorists from going to Egypt to recruit people and launch attacks from there. That's how Gaza became isolated.
After Israel won the 1967 war, they allowed Israeli citizens to establish settlements in the Palestinian territory of the West Bank, (but not in Gaza). Those West Bank settlements are illegal according to international law and that land should go back to the Palestinians.
Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution during negotiations because they continue to insist that Israel has no right to exist and all the land is theirs.
Cha
(308,882 posts)Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)I would only add that after the '67 war, Israel took the West Bank from the Jordanians, not the Palestinians (who were Jordanians until 1988 when Jordan stripped them of their citizenship).
cachukis
(2,973 posts)before 1948. I think that was an unsettling factor that persists to today.
Mossfern
(3,633 posts)cachukis
(2,973 posts)regardless of what you would call them, had their lives upended.
Many here seem to think that Israel has the right to exist, but until 1948, it didn't.
Now that it is here, it has to manage its relations, mindful that they have rights too.
Mossfern
(3,633 posts)My grandfather left Russia/Ukraine (Odessa) in the late 1800's. He was sent off when he was 13 years old to avoid being conscripted into the Czar's army... to relatives in Palestine. From there he came to the United States. To imply that there were no Jewish people living in the Palestinian territory is disingenuous.
Correct, there was not State of Israel then as there was no State of Palestine.
The Jewish people established the State of Israel in 1948, the Arabs (Palestinians) could have equally done the same thing, but refused. The Muslim nations surrounding Israel attacked it several times. Israel didn't instigated a war against them.
The history of the area has been explained several times on this forum, please read those posts with an unbiased eye.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)there were no Jews living there, but at the time of the mandate there were less than 10,000.
I know a bit about the history.
That is not important. The people living there had their lives unsettled.
Empathize or not.
yardwork
(65,939 posts)This fantasy that Israel swooped into a peaceful happy little corner of the globe and messed it up in 1948 is a fantasy.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)It was under British Control/Mandate from 1917 until 1947. There was a mix of Arabs, Jews and Christians.
There was no Jewish state, there were enclaves throughout western Europe and the Middle East. Most enclaves were seriously disrupted during the war.
The British had a long colonialist heritage and felt obligated to attend to the aftermath of the war. It was modus operandi for them to dictate borders.
What was, was no longer. The tumult that followed the establishment of Israel upended the lives of millions. Arabs fled Israel and Jews were expelled from Middle Eastern countries.
Mind you, this is the Middle East, the remnants of the Ottoman Empire. Islam and the Jews have been at odds for a long time.
Suddenly, a Jewish State shows up in a part of the world that was not too happy about it.
The existing partition was not acceptable to the Arabs.
I'm not going to get into the politics, but that is a reality. What was, wasn't, pretty much overnight.
yardwork
(65,939 posts)That's the most euphemistic description of the Holocaust I think I've ever read.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)been pretty dicey of late.
The conflict, as I see it, is a predicament.
There are recent antecedents that got us here and there has to be an escape.
An analysis of those events can shine a light on whose responses are in the best interest of a resolution.
Going at this with righteousness serves righteousness, not an escape.
Bad moves by a lot of people got us here. More bad moves perpetuate the predicament.
Adults generally put the children first.
Interestingly, Democrats, mostly, play by the rules and value the system. Republicans game the rules for advantage.
Looking at what's happening in Israel offers us a chance to consider the Machiavellian understanding.
Abbaas has no Authority. Hamas is dictatorial. Netanyahu is autocratic, but in a democracy. The US has influence, but wants the participants to resolve on their own.
Who is the adult in the room?
yardwork
(65,939 posts)TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Democrats don’t support terrorists who kill men, women and children in their homes.
SKKY
(12,455 posts)...when Ehud Barak basically gave him everything he wanted at Camp David in 2000. But sure, whatever you say champ.
SKKY
(12,455 posts)...without telling me you know nothing about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Chuuku Davis
(580 posts)
DenaliDemocrat
(1,603 posts)The heads off of babies b
uponit7771
(92,609 posts)SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)Has nothing to do with being Palestinian. Has everything to do with wanting to murder toddlers.
uponit7771
(92,609 posts)SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)
LakeArenal
(29,941 posts)Also when one says XXX People are the really referring to the actual people or are they referring to governments.
To me. two different groups entirely.
I find the real humans living through wars just want them stopped.
Rec
obamanut2012
(28,348 posts)Entire OPs about it.
EX500rider
(11,763 posts)Or is it more likely being realistic about urban warfare and accepting that civilian causalities will be a biproduct?
stopdiggin
(13,491 posts)
druidity33
(6,685 posts)is a few people exhibiting something more like callous indifference. Statements like "Well, Hamas hides in the civilian buildings, so, what are you gonna do? Gotta bomb them out." Or "Well, they voted for Hamas, so they must hate Israel and jews too, right?!"
Happy Hoosier
(8,834 posts)I’d entertain alternatives to what’s happening now that results in Hamas being removed from power. I don’t know of one. Do you?
druidity33
(6,685 posts)not a General. Expecting a regular person to have a solution about this is somewhat unrealistic, no?
Happy Hoosier
(8,834 posts)People like Biden and Biden are doing their best on this matter. It's easy to sit on a high moral horse and criticize. It's harder to offer a genuiniely viable alternative.
So I am resigned to horrific destruction as Hamas is removed from power. I am not callous to it.
druidity33
(6,685 posts)
iemanja
(55,727 posts)To claim no one is anti-Palestine is blatantly false.
mahina
(19,590 posts)And the terrible risk we face of Joe not succeeding in 2024. It’s razor close, unimaginably.
I have steered clear of anti-Palestinian rhetoric here somehow.
Praying for safety and comfort for all the innocents, for understanding and love to emerge, somehow. Or till that day, some way to peace.
SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)SoFlaBro
(3,424 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)supporters are relentless in their support for him. God help us if that dipshit gets elected.
calguy
(5,881 posts)But their numbers weren't enough to get him re-elected in 2020, and he's certainly not gained many new supporters since then. His chances in 2024 are slim if you apply logic instead of rigged poll numbers.
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)how the pundits on the news already predicting that we are close to WW3. The media needs to stop escalating crap. There are too much turmoil going on now, which we never thought to see again.
MorbidButterflyTat
(2,736 posts)
Aussie105
(6,903 posts)+1
Nerves on edge, feeling jittery, thinking a large chunk of the world is insane and you hope it doesn't spread to your neighbourhood?
Yep, the media says 'GOTCHA!' You will be back to soak up more of the same from them! And they can watch the advertising dollars roll in. Your jitters are of no concern to them.
I'm not pro- or anti- anybody in the Middle East, because I have no say in what happens there.
Why waste one's mental energy on that? Beyond lamenting the meaningless loss of life.
I didn't cause it, I'm not involved in perpetuating the insanity, people in charge need to find a solution, not me.
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)trained them well. Create fear and the media ratings and followers go up. CNN is the worst, they are not journalists, just shitty reporters. I only look at Ayman and O'Donnell. Even my local news Global is just as shitty.
I care as the senseless loss of life gets to me. I worry when forest fires break out here. I really thought that countries invading another country was archaic, I was wrong. I sometimes wonder why the UN is so inept. Poor countries pay their dues but they do not have equal representaton.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)riles up their viewers. You call it escalation, I call it instigating. That's the whole point of the media's existence. Viewers translate to $$$. No viewers, no $$. They can't "escalate" or instigate anything the viewers don't allow them to. Yes, it's just that simple.
Layzeebeaver
(1,912 posts)One action by one party with a counter action by the other party will not fix the problem.
After the dust settles, "Hamas II" or whatever it will call itself will slowly arise...
...and the cycle will continue.
I Hate Kissinger, but this retrospective from the CIA is quite insightful...
https://www.cia.gov/static/Review-Kissinger-MasteroftheGame.pdf
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)under the orange idiot, they are fighting to destablize the US. Please tell me how President Biden can stop these morons. He is not looking to annihilate them but no matter how much progress he makes with the economy and infrastructure, these trump supporters will never stop supporting him. In fact, they keep giving him money at his every beck and call. How does a Democratic President convince these people they are supporting the wrong person? That's a tall mountain to climb and both you and I know it.
Patton French
(1,519 posts)Surely that’s not what you meant to say.
Dorian Gray
(13,783 posts)That is where all of your arguments spin out of control.
Hamas is a terrorist org and has dictatorial control over Gaza.
Nothing about human rights.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)That a group with the stated goal of genocide, who rapes, tortures and kills civilians is "fighting for human rights"?
Sympthsical
(10,427 posts)Many people have learned to talk around their view of Hamas as resistance or liberators, because they know it wouldn't go over well. They just imply it heavily and then declare, "I didn't say that!" when pinned down on it.
So this is some refreshing honesty.
Points for not attempting the "I'm not saying what I am clearly saying!" that is rife in this subject.
Cha
(308,882 posts)claudette
(5,248 posts)If you were part of an oppressed people who had no government, no military, no standing in the international community to fight for your rights to EXIST as a free nation under your own rule, what would you do to fight a country that has taken your land and is financed and supplied weapons by the United States? Do you have any idea of what it is like to live in Gaza? There are many, many articles about it online. It is pathetic.
(My answer is - I would try very hard to get Israel to negotiate a solution).
I am NOT condoning terrorism that Hamas committed on 10/7. I support the innocent Palestinians who are suffering the most by the Israeli government's revenge and collective punishment bomings.
Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)You're skating riiiiiiiiiight up to edge of doing so by making this argument.
That's a gnat's ass from saying, "Now, I don't condone terrorism, obviously... but gosh, if every so often they snap and murder 1400 civilians in the most savage ways imaginable, can you really blame them?"
You're also skating right up to the edge of agreeing with the Hamas spokesman who said, "Everything we do is justified."
And you're providing cover for Hamas by minimizing those words and saying you "think and hope" that other Hamas members think differently.
You're on ignore because you simply do NOT comprehend what I am saying.
Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)But the post I quoted was about Hamas, not the people of Gaza.
They raped, tortured and killed innocents. That isn't freedom fighting no matter what spin you put on it.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)"They raped, tortured and killed innocents" so did the US Military in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, by your own logic I can expect you would support Iraq bombing the US to "eliminate" the problem?
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)I assume the "oppressed people who had no government, no military, no standing in the international community to fight for your rights to EXIST" are the Palestinians, right? (I'm guessing that you're not considering Hamas and its military wing as a government or a military, and not counting Palestine's observer status at the UN.)
I further interpret your question as basically asking, "Given this dire situation, what else would you expect but some sort of action such as that which happened on 10/7?" As in, while you don't condone 10/7 yourself, you feel that Israel kind of pushed people to the point where they would react this way.
The reason I'm confused by your question, then, is that it wasn't Palestinians in general who carried out the 10/7 massacre. It was Hamas. If, indeed, as is commonly stated, that Hamas does not represent Palestinians in Gaza, then why do you bring up the living conditions in Gaza?
yagotme
(4,083 posts)Except about being oppressed. By their own government, which you say they don't have. Which controls the streets of Gaza with the military/militant branch, of which you say they don't have. If they don't have a government, then why don't they form one? What's stopping them from forming their own military? Must be all those guys running around carrying AK's, that are supported by guys who don't exist. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
edisdead
(3,359 posts)demmiblue
(38,141 posts)
Wingus Dingus
(8,866 posts)Cha
(308,882 posts)Wingus Dingus
(8,866 posts)being slandered here...
Cha
(308,882 posts)
sarisataka
(21,631 posts)"but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas"
And we have been told no one supports Hamas...
Cha
(308,882 posts)Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)I'm trying to understand how the premeditated rape, mutilation, torture, abduction, and murder of civilians, including women, children, and the elderly, is "fighting for human rights."
Help me out here.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)The us military raped, mutilated and tortured civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and black sites all over the world in the "war on terrorism" including women, children and the elderly while claiming to fight for freedom and human rights. How do you feel about that? Terrorists or liberators?
Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 7, 2023, 08:55 PM - Edit history (1)
Oh, that's right, they didn't. Lynndie England and her fellows from the 372nd Military Police Company were brought up on charges, tried, and imprisoned by the United States. If you have proof of other incidents like it that weren't prosecuted appropriately, I suggest you get in touch with the Judge Advocate General Corps office at the Pentagon.
Get back to me when Hamas arrests, charges, tries, and imprisons or executes the savages who set out with the explicit, deliberate intent to rape, torture, mutilate, burn alive, kidnap, and murder 1400+ people on 10/7.
Layzeebeaver
(1,912 posts)This is nothing about what is going on inside the U.S.
This is a long-lived and deeply complex international/global issue that has been festering for generations. Sure, the U.S. and the west have had a hand in the festering. However, let us now choose to not commingle internal and external issues.
Your reply only creates a diversion. Well done, if that's what you intended.
Cha
(308,882 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,337 posts)Cha
(308,882 posts)
Response to akbacchus_BC (Reply #25)
Post removed
Skittles
(162,772 posts)I'm not anti-this or that, I am completely sick of the entire never-ending issues.
akbacchus_BC
(5,813 posts)I too am sick of all the turmoil. Never thought countries or politicians are into wars and invasions in this century. Just makes me wonder if the earth should reclaim its space. Humans are too cruel.
Skittles
(162,772 posts)my mum survived bombs as a child in England during WWII and that trauma never, ever leaves a person, not ever
FBaggins
(28,055 posts)... If you're going to misrepresent anti-Hamas rhetoric as being anti-Palestinian.
Enough said.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)one and the same. If a person, or a nation, dehumanizes the people of Palestine, by claiming that they are all terrorists, or the supporters of terrorism, then that grants license to destroy them and the infrastructure that keeps them alive. Both sides have the same philosophy that the only path to peace is violence and would rather fight than talk, rather kill than compromise, and both sides want to displace or destroy the other. When both sides love to hate, It is the perfect setup for perpetual war.
I do not, in any way, condone or excuse, the deadly terrorist action that started this current round of fighting; it was abhorrent to me, but I think that I understand why it happened. I also believe that if I were a Palestinian, I would be dedicated to eliminating Israel, and that If I were an Israeli, I would be perfectly willing to destroy or displace al Palestinians. We become who we are told we are; we are all products of our societies.
stopdiggin
(13,491 posts)Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:50 AM - Edit history (1)
I think everyone here is anti-terrorism. Various subgroups of Palestinians have resorted to terrorism because they totally reject the notion that Israel should exist at all. That is, after all, what "from the river to the sea" means. They want it all. They want all the land for a Palestinian state, which would result in Israel ceasing to exist. As long as they're working from that expectation, no progress can be made on this issue. Israel isn't going to and can't be expected to negotiate itself out of existence.
Various two-state solutions have been proposed over the years and none have come to fruition, and there's fault for that on both sides of the table. I won't claim otherwise. But the Palestinians have to accept that terrorism isn't going to get them all the land they want, and they have to accept that they're going to have to compromise.
That's just reality. Liking reality is optional; accepting reality is mandatory.
claudette
(5,248 posts)They post that ordinary Palestinians are also responsible for what Hamas does because they voted for them or they don’t STOP them from attacking Israel.
Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)Like many facts, though, it needs to be framed in the proper context. Gazans voted for Hamas nearly 20 years ago and there have been no elections since, so it's not as if they voted Hamas into power last year and now here we are. If elections were held tomorrow, perhaps they'd choose differently.
It's worth noting, though, that Hamas in 2006 and Hamas in 2023 are pretty much identical. They were dedicated to the ideal of the destruction of Israel in 2006 when they were voted into power, and they're still dedicated to that ideal today. That's also part of the context.
Whether Hamas was "in charge" of Gaza or not, they'd still be attacking Israel, so for all practical purposes it doesn't really matter. If the Palestinian Authority were running the show in Gaza, Hamas would just be an underground group, figuratively and literally.
Insofar as stopping Hamas goes, I'm not sure how unarmed civilians taking on a ruthless, armed terrorist group is supposed to work, so in my opinion that's a silly suggestion.
claudette
(5,248 posts)That doesn’t prove that ALL those who voted for Hamas approve of what they did on October 7. And. Palestinian children do NOT vote so why are they victims of the bombings. Don’t say they are used as shields. That doesn’t justify Israel’s murdering them. Period
Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)As a practical matter, probably most did. They voted for Hamas knowing full well who they are and what their goals were. Given demographics, though, those who voted almost 20 years ago are a small minority of the population of Gaza.
And if Hamas uses them as shields, the IDF will do what they have to do to protect Israelis. They can't just not attack a Hamas rocket launch site and allow it to continue launching rockets into Israel.
If Hamas cared about the people of Gaza, they'd place their military assets elsewhere. Since they don't do that, the only conclusion I can draw is that they don't care or actively want civilian casualties.
I disagree with all that you said. Sounds a lot like IDF talking points.
Jedi Guy
(3,328 posts)Where does that get us, though?
claudette
(5,248 posts)I think it's a fact that NO child votes in Palestine. As for mothers of those children who may get murdered by a group that Israel attacks, I doubt they do support Hamas.
stopdiggin
(13,491 posts)many of then unequivocally do support ...
(even so .. the vast majority of posting here on DU make a very clear distinction between Palestinian vs Hamas)
claudette
(5,248 posts)and find it hard to believe.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)You must have missed that one.
claudette
(5,248 posts)CONDONING what Hamas did on 10/7.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)Sub thread was talking about posts on this site supporting Hamas. You stated that you didn't see any. I provided link to post supporting Hamas, from a thread you posted in, and I presumed, read. Now, you move goalposts, changing the words in the topic being discussed.
claudette
(5,248 posts)mean by "supporting" Hamas? One can understand that Palestinians have no one to fight for their freedom from oppression because they don't have a standing military or a working government.
NO ONE I've seen supports the tactics used by Hamas, but maybe they understand (NOT CONDONE) the fact that they know no other way to fight for their rights against a nation that is armed and financed by the U.S. THAT is NOT "supporting" Hamas' terrorism. in my view
Years ago it was Palestinian children throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers that started Israel's attacks that killed thousand. Somehow Hamas has terrible weapons now and the danger is much worse. It has to end - and will only end if they sit down and talk. Nuttyahoo does not want a ceasefire - so why do so many here support that?
Willto
(301 posts)Find me any statement issued by Hamas that indicates they want to talk and find a peaceful solution. I'll wait. They refuse to even recognize Israel's right to exist and call for the extermination of all Jews on the planet. What are you going to "Talk" about with such people? Maybe try to barter then down to only killing 75% of the Jews on the planet?
claudette
(5,248 posts)resolved years ago. Rabin was assassinated by a member of the party that Nuttyahoo led. The oppression persisted and it got worse over the years. Nuttyahoo doesn't want a ceasefilre so there can be no "talk" until that happens. It's obvious that Hamas does not have the power to kill all Jews on the planet and Israel knows this. It seems that his goal is to reclaim Gaza back to Israel after getting rid of as many Palestinians as possible. Why else is he destroying so much of the infrastructure and wants to send Palestinians away from their homeland?
Willto
(301 posts)The degree to which you possess the ability to do something IN NO WAY dilutes the evil of the desire and the attempt to do it. IN NO WAY!
Besides Hamas managed to kill over 1000 Israelis in a single day so I hardly think their threats and stated goals can just be dismissed as idle talk.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)"Hamas is fighting for human rights."
How did they start this fight? By killing civilians. Women. Children. Babies. Torturing them. Rape. Kidnapping. And not just a couple. Over 1,000. And they did this, knowing what Israel's response would be. If you can explain to me how that is "fighting for human rights", I'd really like to see it.
EX500rider
(11,763 posts)Military wing of Hamas:
Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades
Battalions of martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam'; often shortened to Al-Qassam Brigades, named after Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, is the military wing of the Palestinian organization Hamas.
Working government:
Hamas has 16 different government Ministries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_government_of_October_2016
Willto
(301 posts)The facts in your post goes to show that many of the people posting about this situation either have NO CLUE of what they are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting the facts if they do. Only they can say which is true.
There appears to be quite a few on here who are anti-palestinian. Not caring if innocent Palestinians are being killed by Israeli is anti-palestinian.
Hamas is the enemy not the Palestinian people.
multigraincracker
(35,236 posts)Cultural Anthropology, shows us that nature vs nurture is a strange thing when studied by science.
Both sides in this conflict share the same genes. If you were to take a new born child of the most radical parents of either side and switch that child with one from the parents of the other side you might be surprised at the result.
Booth children would grow up with the exact same views as their adopted parents. It’s culture not genes that guide their politics. Hate is learned. The child brought up by a radical of either side would be like those that raised them.
Kind of makes it all kind of silly.
betsuni
(27,663 posts)obamanut2012
(28,348 posts)Advocating for collective punishment.
EX500rider
(11,763 posts)obamanut2012
(28,348 posts)Advocating for collective punishment.
ShazzieB
(19,936 posts)I am also pro-Israel, in principle, in that I passionately believe in the need for a Jewish homeland and the right of Israel to exist, but I am becoming less and less supportive of the way Israel has been responding to this crisis. There is a difference between self-defense and retaliation, and I feel that Israel's leaders have crossed that line repeatedly. If they continue as they have, Israel's standing in the world is going to be badly damaged, if it isn't already, and I hate to see that happen. (It goes without saying that this is on top of my concern for the humanitarian issues. Bombing ambulances is beyond the pale, afaic.)
At this point, I'm strongly in favor of what Biden calls a humanitarian pause in the hostilities, and I hope to hell he and Secretary Blinken can get the Israel government to agree to one. I know they're trying hard.
I am very tired of Netanyahu's intransigence and unwillingness to listen to reason. Sometimes I wonder if he's over-compensating for the bone headed errors (ignoring intelligence, etc.) that allowed Hamas to pull off their attack on the music festival. He needs to stop.
In addition to all of the above, I am throughly sick and tired of the constant fighting about it here at DU. I've been avoiding those threads for the last few days, because it just got to be too much. Even now, I am uncomfortable saying what I really think about certain things. If I express support for Israel, I'm afraid of bring accused of being anti-Palestinian. If I express concern for the welfare of the Palestinian people, I'm afraid of being labeled antisemitic. It's easier to just stay out of those threads. (And yet I couldn't resist responding to this one. Go figure.)
Mysterian
(5,459 posts)As soon as the Nazis were defeated, things got a lot better for Germany. Too bad for civilians in the area, but the hateful, murdering Hamas garbage must be eliminated before things can get better for Palestine.
I remember when Yasser Arafat had a good deal on the table and he said "fuck you." Maybe the Palestinians don't want peace. In which case, they are getting just what they asked for right now.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)As a group, they do not. That want Israel wiped off the map and the Jews dead. They have repeatedly turned down chances to live side by side in peace with Israel and have chosen hate and violence instead.
Hamas is in power because of the will of the majority of the people in Gaza, not in spite of them.
LiberaBlueDem
(1,166 posts)All Palace-stinians want to take over and rule.
Thank Gawd we have people talking for ALL Palace-tinians on here.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)n/t
Bucky
(55,334 posts)It's only difficult it's be on DU if it's difficult to read opinions that you disagree with. Under ordinary circumstances I don't see why other people having different opinions than mine would be bothersome
But despite me being horrified it all the utterly pointless carnage, in my safe little Western cocoon, my awareness of the carnage is really just an opinion. I don't have skin in this game.
We all need to remember that Israel suffered a a brutal and intimate massacre, face-to-face killing and butchering and hunting down citizens by killers who don't mind looking you in the eye and before slaughtering your family before you... And in historical terms it's not unique. This sort of brutality lurks right under the surface at any and every peace attempt they might be invited to. And we all need to remember that Palestinian lives are just as important as Israeli lives. We need to recall that despite the spectacular explosions that signal the loss of thousands of lives in Palestine, what's happening throughout Gaza is only a fast motion version of what's been happening to the Palestinians in their lands all along.
ProfessorGAC
(72,035 posts)Giving it a rec.
Besides, I see people making the polar opposite complaints. Maybe the OP should only read those.
NoRethugFriends
(3,224 posts)"Unfortunately, the US has the same insurgents, but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas,..."
doc03
(37,595 posts)them to work it out, we can't be the world's policemen.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)In a conflict where one side has as it's stated mission the elimination of an entire race of people from the face of the planet?
You can't take sides where one side has raped and tortured civilians and has vowed to do it again if given the opportunity?
I understand Israel isn't perfect, but anyone using the "both sides" argument is either ignorant or condoning evil.
doc03
(37,595 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)
religion that has gone on for centuries and it won't ever end until they learn co-exist or one side wipes out the other. The people on both sides are caught in the middle.
The Sunni Arab population in that area has plenty of homelands (Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc.) and those who stayed within Israel upon its formation and didn't leave in order to make war live just fine.
Those that chose genocide and violence didn't make out so well, but as they say, fuck around and find out.
Happy Hoosier
(8,834 posts)I have seen anti Hamas rhetoric. I’ll give you some more. Fuck Hamas.
Hamas has doomed thousands of civilians to death with their callous disregard for civilian life by deliberately provoking this war.
dembotoz
(16,922 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)claudette
(5,248 posts)be free to govern themselves and have a standing military to protect Palestinians. They would have unhindered access to be able to supply their own water and electricity or whatever else is needed. And the ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank would stop and all that stolen land of settlements returned to Palestine. That’s just for starters. Gaza would not be under siege and oppression
LauraInLA
(1,773 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)claudette
(5,248 posts)It is disheartening. I found an informative article in Mother Jones online magazine. I learned a lot from it.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/shibley-telhami-israel-palestine-gaza-biden-netanyahu-hamas-settlements/
The Misguided Stories Americans Tell Themselves About Israel and Palestine
“….We believe that the entire territory—the West Bank, Israel, and Gaza—has in effect been a one-state reality. In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority is really no more than a service provider at a local level to the Palestinians, and something like a subcontractor for Israeli security. It certainly has no power in defending Palestinians against not only Israeli military incursions, but even against settler violence, which is expanding in the West Bank.
Even related to Gaza, where Israel had actually withdrawn, Gaza has not been an independent state. Gaza has been under blockade for years. Even before it was technically a blockade and long before Hamas took over, Israel was still considered the occupying power. Gaza doesn’t have sovereignty. Gaza cannot have exit to the outside world through Israel. Gaza does not have access to the sea. It does not have access to the air. Even though there’s an opening to Egypt, Egypt coordinates with Israel about what to allow because they consider Israel the occupying power….”
EX500rider
(11,763 posts)Yeah, no
Egypt has found the more the border is open the more terrorism they have in the Sinai coming from Gaza.
claudette
(5,248 posts)that's ok. Everyone is entitled to them.
EX500rider
(11,763 posts)Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sisi's most serious domestic political rival. And Egypt has faced Islamist terror in the Sinai Peninsula since the 2011 revolution that toppled the Mubarak regime. For all these reasons, shortly after Hamas took over Gaza in 2007, Egypt sealed the border.
By 2018, according to Human Rights Watch, Egypt had razed the entire Sinai city of Rafah on the Egyptian side of the borders, destroying thousands of homes and displacing 70,000 persons, to create a nearly mile-wide buffer zone to prevent the movement of weapons and terrorists in tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. To emphasize the point, Egypt even flooded those tunnels. Two years later, in 2020, Egypt built a 20-foot reinforced concrete wall that reaches 16 feet below ground.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/why-egypt-wont-open-border-its-palestinian-neighbors#:~:text=Hamas%20is%20an%20offshoot%20of,2007%2C%20Egypt%20sealed%20the%20border.
demmiblue
(38,141 posts)the ignore function is your friend.
Response to akbacchus_BC (Original post)
gulliver This message was self-deleted by its author.
Emrys
(8,469 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:45 PM - Edit history (1)
I'll make an exception for this reply. I've long had a policy of not discussing Israel-Palestine issues on American forums because I don't see anything I have to say as being able to persuade those who are likely to leap on anything I write and often argue in bad faith because no verbal conflict on this can go unwon.
I read Twitter (very selectively), newspapers, watch some TV news (mainly the UK's Channel 4) and some other online sites, and the balance of expressed opinion on DU jars a great deal with the balance of sentiments I see elsewhere, and certainly in my own country, Scotland.
The Scottish First Minister, Humza Yousaf, has had inlaws trapped in Gaza since the Hamas atrocity, and they were only able to leave a couple of days ago having said what they feared might be their final goodbyes a number of times. He went public with his and his wife's anguish, and also reached out to the Scottish Jewish community in heartfelt sympathy, and was welcomed. He has been calling for a ceasefire from the start. He has also condemned in absolute terms Hamas's attack. The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has done the same, and has also been sure to reach out to the London Jewish community as well as people of his own faith and none.
It seems no one can post on the issues around this conflict on DU without being pounced upon, usually by what appears to be a gang of the same screennames that always crop up and generally rehearse the same hasbara arguments over and over, usually laced with the old debate-stopper, accusations of antisemitism.
Perhaps because I do have a "side" in this conflict, my perception is that this happens more to people who criticize the Israeli government, and especially its conduct since Hamas's atrocities.
My "side" has long been with the broad left in Israel and others who oppose their government's policies, along with Palestinians who have suffered brutal, often fatal, attacks, land theft, unlawful detention, illegal destruction and confiscation of their crops and property, and manipulation of their political life for far too many years while Israel's government has done nothing to protect them, but on the contrary has encouraged the West Bank settlers and also Hamas. Any analysis of the current eruption of conflict that doesn't include that historical conflict or handwaves it away is disgraceful, and it's impossible to believe that intelligent, politically aware people can defend it in good faith.
Netanyahu has boasted repeatedly about how he has thwarted any attempts to resolve the Palestinian issue over the years to serve his own agenda. I could post a video of him literally doing so, but the tendency too often is to dismiss any such evidence on the basis of its source, or embark on baroque justifications that end up in dizzying bouts of goalpost-shifting and selective readings of history that get nobody anywhere.
He is the prime mover behind a horrible situation, though he has plenty of fellow travellers, and Hamas are as much his tools as they are of any other malign entity. Blaming the Palestinian population for not choosing a different, less savage and corrupt government than Hamas ignores the fact that to change the situation, ordinary Palestinians would have to face down not just Hamas, but the covert and sometimes not so covert sabotage of the Israeli government.
I have watched Israeli ambassadors and government spokespeople in mainstream TV interviews, and have to say that their arrogance and the inhumanity of their language has done more to incite anti-Israeli feeling than almost anything, to the extent that the Israeli government has stopped fielding the Israeli Ambassador to the UK (Tzipi Hotovely, a savage and notorious rightwinger even before she took up the post), I suspect because they realized she was turning people against them.
I would warn people who adopt some of the same complacent, self-justificatory and often utterly heartless lines of argument on DU that they are in danger of achieving the same result. There's no point in "winning" an argument if in the course of doing so you reveal attitudes that would not appear on DU (or at least not without being seriously challenged) in relation to conflicts involving other countries.
I'm not going to repeat some of the objectionable arguments I've seen on DU, but any who say they haven't seen anti-Hamas sentiment stray into anti-Palestinian rhetoric and victim-blaming are either being selective in the truth they write or have become selectively blind to it.
As an example of the depths I've seen some sink to, I alerted on one post a few weeks ago that called for Hamas captives to be tortured in "medieval" ways. Just before then, the poster had posted in the same thread in favour of torturing Hamas captives as some sort of deterrent. When challenged on this on the grounds of illegality and the fact that torture has proven ineffective, he doubled down and said that was because it hadn't been savage enough, and his solution was to go "truly medieval". Both replies stood for a couple of days before my nagging conscience led me to alert on the worse reply. It was a sort of test of DU, fair or not. My alert was upheld. As far as I know, the earlier reply that called for plain old torture still stands. If anybody else alerted on it, it must have been allowed to pass by the jury
This is on a site that sprang into life on the back of Bush's stolen election and weathered the years of wrongheaded conflict in Afganistan and Iraq, where I believe widespread horror and anger was expressed at the systematic torture dealt to prisoners in those wars.
There's an old adage: Be careful who you choose as an enemy, or you may grow to resemble them.
I don't know whether this reply is going to attract any attention at all, or even be alerted on and hidden as unacceptable in some way. It would be nice if any responses didn't just confirm my earlier experiences described above and my long-held stance of not arguing about Israel-Palestine on American forums. I give notice that my ignore finger is itchy if it leads to any personal attacks. Life's too short.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)and Hamas occur. I have come close at times, because of the fact that Hamas is "the" government in Gaza, representing Palestinians, and the mental line between the government and the population can be skipped over, unfortunately. Talking about Hamas, is technically, talking about Palestinians, although it is a sub-group. Similar to other countries blaming "America" for Trump. Not all Americans voted for him, but he was the elected representative for the nation. None of us are perfect.
Response to yagotme (Reply #87)
Post removed
yagotme
(4,083 posts)Cite where I said they all have to share the blame.
cachukis
(2,973 posts)Rudimentary inclinations exist in every forum. I guess we are a microchosm of society and the commentary should be expected.
Hopefully everyone is able to step back and learn from our peers.
obamanut2012
(28,348 posts)LuckyCharms
(19,825 posts)Some of the best minds in the world have been trying to solve this issue.
I'm not smart enough to come up with some great revelation on how to approach this.
sarisataka
(21,631 posts)Because in some cases I don't know if the person is unaware they are using antisemitic tropes to criticize Israel or if they are completely aware of what they are doing
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)"usually laced with the old debate-stopper, accusations of antisemitism."
mainer
(12,317 posts)It's possible to be anti-Hamas, but not anti-Palestinian
It's possible to be anti-Israeli government, but not anti-semitic.
And yet, we're trapped in this "you're either for us or against us" rhetoric, when most of us are simply against the slaughter of all innocents.
brush
(59,335 posts)BannonsLiver
(19,010 posts)stopdiggin
(13,491 posts)and on those rare occasions when something 'questionable' has been expressed - it has been immediately called out and rebuked. I'm sorry if you are having a tough time, but DU is not contributing to the situation.
IronLionZion
(48,177 posts)Nobody is interested in exploring non-deadly options
MorbidButterflyTat
(2,736 posts)akbacchus_BC (5,686 posts) 25.
"Unfortunately, the US has the same insurgents, but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas, under the orange idiot, they are fighting to destablize the US."
The comma between "rights" and "like" should be a semi-colon.
The disingenuous, deliberate misreading of an admittedly clunky sentence to fit your manufactured outrage narrative.
Then, of course, the inevitable pile on.
Sympthsical
(10,427 posts)I'll give you that.
lapucelle
(19,951 posts)And with the semicolon, we have
yagotme
(4,083 posts)Curious.
Cha
(308,882 posts)of explaining the quote is going to change what was posted.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)At least specify one way or another.
Cha
(308,882 posts)she meant.. profile.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)I told them, unless the post is edited, I'm going to have to assume that the post reads as it stands.
Cha
(308,882 posts)her out.
I wrote a couple of scathing posts. about it.. crickets.
questionseverything
(10,649 posts)roamer65
(37,497 posts)$300 a barrel oil will be the BEST THING EVER for Planet Earth.
roamer65
(37,497 posts)That will force the needed rationing to reduce CO2 emissions.
Ace Rothstein
(3,337 posts)roamer65
(37,497 posts)From 1942-1945, most Americans got 3-4 gallons a week. That was it. It can be done.
Cha
(308,882 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,337 posts)It is going to take decades to get to a place where personal vehicles are not needed.
roamer65
(37,497 posts)eBay, Amazon, work itself.
…and it is THEIR oil and can sell it to who they want. Just like we embargo Cuba and North Korea.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,671 posts)You’re in favor of tanking the economy completely, which will result in Republican majorities across state and federal governments.
roamer65
(37,497 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(7,671 posts)roamer65
(37,497 posts)I’ll enjoy it.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,671 posts)roamer65
(37,497 posts)Let see where this all goes in a few months and see who is laughing then.
Ehud Barak even said Israel has only a few more weeks of this and world opinion will be completely against them.
yagotme
(4,083 posts)My, my, my...
JCMach1
(28,496 posts)In the same way as you can be anti-Netanyahu and anti-right Israeli government without being anti-Semitic.
Having said that.
Hamas wildly escalated the status quo and are reaping that whirlwind. You take yourself to the level of ISIS, expect to be treated accordingly.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)You shouldn’t be on DU in the first place. Every single death in Israel or Gaza since October 7 has been the fault of Hamas. And if you don’t realize that, you shouldn’t be on DU. It’s not complicated or controversial.
Aussie105
(6,903 posts)Lots of threads where an opposing or more moderate point of view is cut to shreds.
Just agree with the original post. No discussion beyond that tolerated, sort of thing.
kelly1mm
(5,667 posts)how easy that was!
egduj
(865 posts)I have no doubt it's been difficult for you.
Calculating
(2,998 posts)I find it difficult dealing with the terrorist sympathizers. Hamas did absolutely horrible things on that day, putting babies in the oven, torturing families to death in front of each other, rape, setting people on fire. It would be one thing if they were just killing, but the went out of their way to make it as awful as possible.
BigmanPigman
(52,721 posts)more in the last month than in the last 2 years combined.
I am a pacifist and an atheist and a misanthrope. All of this shit pisses me off every day of my life, knowing it will never change. Thousands of years from now humans will be continuing the same shit. This is what we do.
Isn't this lovely? 
Happy Hoosier
(8,834 posts)It's pretty depressing.
William769
(58,001 posts)ENOUGH SAID.
jcmaine72
(1,783 posts)Ironically enough, twenty years ago, in the midst of all the fearmongering, warmongering, hatemongrring and simplistic, unnuanced "You're either with us or the terrorists", rhetoric being spewed in the aftermath of 9/11 from virtually every quarter of American society, DU was one of the few bastions of sanity and reason. DU skewed to the left of the mainstream of the Democratic Party then. Today, it is mainstream.
That said, the world has changed a lot since then as well. Thanks to social media, which was virtually non-existent twenty years ago, one can find an agreeable niche on virtually any topic. There's no need feel alienated or outnumbered any longer simply because you're swimming against the ephemeral tide of popular opinion on one particular forum.
DU is awesome for what it still is, and there are still many terrific and brilliant people who post here, but when the space it occupies gets a little tight under the big tent we as Democrats love, there are always other options.
Avalon Sparks
(2,692 posts)It was a million times better in the early 2000’s, and now I honestly often can’t tell the difference between DU now and what Free Republic was then.
Sad how far to the right it’s moved.
Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #224)
Post removed
jcmaine72
(1,783 posts)Even if our status quo is better than the reTHug version of it, it is still a status quo nonetheless. That fosters conservative thought processes whether we admit it or not, and an inevitable tug to the center/right. We now have something to maintain....to conserve, and that something is POWER. Anything causing turbulence is a potential threat that must be discredited and/or destroyed, even if it is centered around core principles once thought to be defining and indispensable. In that sense, the mainstream of any party in charge doesn't really need an "underground". Such places are by definition subversive and a threat to the status quo.
It was a different ballgame twenty years ago. In the wake of the stolen election of 2000 and the war hysteria that swept the nation following 9/11, with its accompanying hard shift to the right, many of us on the left felt powerless, underrepresented, alienated and bereft. Having a place like DU to retreat to was, if nothing else, a solace.
Meh...as the most overused expression in the 21st century goes, it is what it is.
Avalon Sparks
(2,692 posts)Appreciate the thoughtful response, read it twice.
You made some astute points that I had not considered.
Redleg
(6,402 posts)and people think of him as a great king.
More on topic: There is some subtle and not-so-subtle anti Palestinian sentiment here at DU. Blaming the current Palestinian residents of Gaza for the mistakes of their forebears is one of them. Dismissing concerns about the well-being of Gazan non-combatants is another.
Zeecat
(6 posts)And the U.N. needs to finish what it started in 1948 not the US. The countries in the U.N. need to make it a priority to solve the 2 state solution in the most amicable way possible.