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It is difficult to be on DU now, given the anti-Palestinian rhetoric. Enough said. (Original Post) akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 OP
That's not enough said. No one is anti-Palestine. We are anti terrorist and anti Hamas scumbags. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #1
Hamas is a result of the atrocities by Israel against the Palestinians. Imagine your new next akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #2
Terrorist fuckstains like Hamas just want to hate, harass, and eventually kill Jews just for being Jews. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #3
Go quarrel with yourself. Am not interested in continuing a dialogue with you. nt. akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #4
There is nothing my neighbor could do to me to make me want to cut off the head of a baby. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #5
You look at too much propaganda on TV. I have heard that the President of Ukraine is killing akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #12
I know Hamas blasted their way into Israel and started killing anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty headband. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #14
Pretty racist verbiage bruv Celerity Nov 2023 #31
Yes, because sweaty indicates a race. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #48
whatever Celerity Nov 2023 #49
Is "sweaty" a slur now? SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #58
if you do not think sweaty arabs is a slur then your slur radar is broken Celerity Nov 2023 #75
I said sweaty headband. You said arabs. Sounds like you have a hangup. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #79
No, it's definitely a you thing. n/t demmiblue Nov 2023 #81
now you are trying to spin your way out Celerity Nov 2023 #82
How about "sweaty terrorists?" Mossfern Nov 2023 #113
that is not what they typed Celerity Nov 2023 #124
It was "sweaty headbands" Mossfern Nov 2023 #136
it was a racist construct Celerity Nov 2023 #137
The way you worded that certainly is. brush Nov 2023 #109
Wow "sweaty headband" obamanut2012 Nov 2023 #43
You started this thread and now you're complaining when people respond? yardwork Nov 2023 #52
They have been killing gays for years already JI7 Nov 2023 #8
Totally on-brand for fucking turds like Hamas. To them, if you're gay, you must die. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #10
Guess what atreides1 Nov 2023 #134
News Flash Straw Man Nov 2023 #17
The solution would have been that Israel and Palestine were States. Not Israel sanctioning everything in akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #24
Palestinians had a chance for a state SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2023 #39
The Palestinian Authority... PJMcK Nov 2023 #41
Post removed Post removed Nov 2023 #55
Plus the many other times Palestinian leadership has rejected any kind of compromise Autumn_Angler Nov 2023 #204
Israel is not building settlements on the Gaza strip. former9thward Nov 2023 #96
Yes, and that was soundly rejected by Hamas. Straw Man Nov 2023 #189
Martin Buber thought Israel should be a single state, secular democracy. PufPuf23 Nov 2023 #95
Actually no. Think Al quaeda, ISIS, Hezbollah, etc. elias7 Nov 2023 #28
I had decided to withdraw from this conversation cachukis Nov 2023 #74
And the armed settlers, backed by Likud, appropriating Arab land continue to inflame things. brush Nov 2023 #116
Israel has established dominion over its cachukis Nov 2023 #132
I don't get what you're saying. Is it that settlers have a right to encroach on Arab land? brush Nov 2023 #135
Not at all. But they did and it is done. Now what? cachukis Nov 2023 #138
How about the Israeli government put a stop to it. And returning the land too could help. brush Nov 2023 #139
You are aware of Netanyahu and autocracy, I'm sure. cachukis Nov 2023 #144
It sure is going to be tough. There's a sliver of hope though that Bibi and his admin wiil be ousted... brush Nov 2023 #207
So very true. The Israeli government cachukis Nov 2023 #210
Who is going to stop Israel from decimating cachukis Nov 2023 #140
So October 7th Dorian Gray Nov 2023 #36
They were both going to be recognized as a state in 1948 EX500rider Nov 2023 #50
There is little to no awareness of this fact among marybourg Nov 2023 #68
Both sides Zeitghost Nov 2023 #64
Israel was not given preference. marybourg Nov 2023 #69
Nothing can justify the atrocities committed by Hamas on 10/7. totodeinhere Nov 2023 #98
Hamas is a GD Butchering Terrorist Org that Cha Nov 2023 #99
What ignorance of history and disregard for facts you are revealing wnylib Nov 2023 #105
Excellent POST.. TY! Cha Nov 2023 #110
Great post Zeitghost Nov 2023 #119
You seem to leave out that Israel didn't exist cachukis Nov 2023 #157
Neither was there a State of Palestine. Mossfern Nov 2023 #175
That is not the point. The people living there, cachukis Nov 2023 #178
Personal story- something I was considerting as an OP Mossfern Nov 2023 #188
I cannot get into this. I did not say cachukis Nov 2023 #191
Their lives had already been upended, prior to 1948. yardwork Nov 2023 #214
Never said it was a happy place. cachukis Nov 2023 #217
"Most (Jewish) enclaves were seriously disrupted during the war." yardwork Nov 2023 #218
I suppose, but conversations here have cachukis Nov 2023 #219
All good points. yardwork Nov 2023 #220
You are in the wrong place TexasDem69 Nov 2023 #176
Hamas is the result of Yasser Arafat not taking "Yes" for an answer... SKKY Nov 2023 #215
Tell me you know nothing about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict... SKKY Nov 2023 #216
Kiss my grits Chuuku Davis Nov 2023 #230
Being happy - no BUT I wouldn't be cutting DenaliDemocrat Nov 2023 #232
K&R, One too many anti Palestine who blame them for Hamas terrorist uponit7771 Nov 2023 #6
Hamas is MAGA - Palestine branch. Same psychotic behavior as the pieces of shit in the MAGA cult. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #9
YEP!! Dictators don't represent the people uponit7771 Nov 2023 #13
They can call themselves HAM ASS Salad. The name matters little. Terrorists are terrorists worldwide like MAGA. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #15
I agree with this. LakeArenal Nov 2023 #183
THIS malaise Nov 2023 #29
Incorrect, plenty of calls for collective punishment obamanut2012 Nov 2023 #42
I'd like to see a link to one of these OP's "calling for collective punishment" EX500rider Nov 2023 #102
+1. much more in line with anything I have seen stopdiggin Nov 2023 #126
What i've seen... druidity33 Nov 2023 #190
Resignation is not the same thing as callousness Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #194
Of course not, i'm a cook... druidity33 Nov 2023 #211
That's kinda my point.... Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #212
I didn't say i saw that attitude FROM YOU. nt. druidity33 Nov 2023 #213
Plenty of people are justifying killing Palestinian civilians iemanja Nov 2023 #122
It's difficult to be anywhere, to breathe in and out with everything that is going on mahina Nov 2023 #7
The killing will abate when Hamas takes a dirt nap; best for both Palestine and Israel. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #11
Send trump and his cohorts to stop the carnage. They managed to cause an insurrection on the Capitol. akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #16
Orange Bastard will only destroy a toilet or a Hefty bag filled with McDonalds. SoFlaBro Nov 2023 #18
At least we are on the same page re the orange man. I don't know what 2024 will bring, but his akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #20
His supporters are faithful to him calguy Nov 2023 #60
I totally share your sentiments. I hope this will conflict will not escalate. What bothers me though, is akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #19
With you MorbidButterflyTat Nov 2023 #125
"The media needs to stop escalating crap." Aussie105 Nov 2023 #21
I agree with you, the media escalates the situation, no matter where the conflict is. Guess their boss akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #23
The media inthewind21 Nov 2023 #228
This is a really (REALLY) complex problem that has taken years to fester Layzeebeaver Nov 2023 #22
Unfortunately, the US has the same insurgents, but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas, akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #25
Did you say Hamas is fighting for human rights? Patton French Nov 2023 #34
Hamas is NOT fighting for human rights Dorian Gray Nov 2023 #38
Did you really just claim Zeitghost Nov 2023 #66
I appreciate the mask-off honesty Sympthsical Nov 2023 #73
But No "points" for Not knowing Shit about what Hamas stands for. Cha Nov 2023 #112
Can I ask a question? claudette Nov 2023 #143
"I am NOT condoning terrorism that Hamas committed on 10/7." Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #159
Okay claudette Nov 2023 #162
On the contrary, I think I understand what you're saying just fine. N/T Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #163
I'm sorry Zeitghost Nov 2023 #164
Huh inthewind21 Nov 2023 #229
I'm confused by your question. BlueCheeseAgain Nov 2023 #168
The statement you made below does not apply to Gazans: yagotme Nov 2023 #221
W.T.F? edisdead Nov 2023 #76
Whoa, I missed this reply. W.T.F.?! demmiblue Nov 2023 #77
This is one of the most fucked-up things I've read on here. Wingus Dingus Nov 2023 #86
Yeah but it's "difficult" . Cha Nov 2023 #117
I guess it IS difficult seeing such a noted "human-rights group" like HAMAS Wingus Dingus Nov 2023 #123
Yeah Yeesh.. Cha Nov 2023 #127
Well that certainly makes things clear sarisataka Nov 2023 #90
We were told Wrong. Cha Nov 2023 #120
"...but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas." Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #94
Well inthewind21 Nov 2023 #231
Remind me again about how the US military explicitly set out to rape, mutilate, and torture civilians as their goal? Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #233
You are responding to an entirely different point. Layzeebeaver Nov 2023 #97
Hamas is Slaughtering to wipe OUT Israel. Learn some FACTS. Cha Nov 2023 #101
This is the most batshit insane thing I've seen posted on DU. Ace Rothstein Nov 2023 #111
Rec.. TY Cha Nov 2023 #129
Post removed Post removed Nov 2023 #226
not me Skittles Nov 2023 #26
I know, always liked your posts, even the bad word ones. akbacchus_BC Nov 2023 #27
it is difficult for me to hear about bombings Skittles Nov 2023 #32
You should cease acting surprised when DUers equate support of Palestinians with support of Hamas... FBaggins Nov 2023 #30
Your point is valid until you consider that some folks here have implied that the two, Hamas and Palestinian are Chainfire Nov 2023 #57
any such equation (and they have been relatively few) is VERY quickly contested and rebuked -(nt)- stopdiggin Nov 2023 #130
I don't think anyone here is anti-Palestinian. Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #33
Oh but some seem to be claudette Nov 2023 #62
Well, stating that Gazans voted for Hamas is factual. They did. Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #70
However claudette Nov 2023 #72
I didn't say all who voted for Hamas approved of 10/7. Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #84
Sorry claudette Nov 2023 #91
I can just as easily reply that everything you said sounds a lot like Hamas talking points. Jedi Guy Nov 2023 #93
Yes, you can say that, but claudette Nov 2023 #118
you haven't been listening to those same voices stopdiggin Nov 2023 #131
I haven't seen any claudette Nov 2023 #141
From a thread you have posted in: yagotme Nov 2023 #142
I don't see it as claudette Nov 2023 #145
"Condoning an attack" is different than "supporting Hamas". yagotme Nov 2023 #146
Exactly what do you claudette Nov 2023 #148
Good Grief Willto Nov 2023 #151
It was almost claudette Nov 2023 #154
A Groups ability Willto Nov 2023 #192
Look closely at the phrase. yagotme Nov 2023 #152
"because they don't have a standing military or a working government" EX500rider Nov 2023 #153
Good Post EX500rider Willto Nov 2023 #155
Oh no PBateman70 Nov 2023 #180
Human Culture, as found in the study of multigraincracker Nov 2023 #35
There's no "anti-Palestinian rhetoric" here. betsuni Nov 2023 #37
Yes, there is - entire OPs obamanut2012 Nov 2023 #44
Link to one OP then EX500rider Nov 2023 #223
Yes, there is, including entire OPs obamanut2012 Nov 2023 #45
As some have said already, I am not anti-Palestinian. I am anti-Hamas. ShazzieB Nov 2023 #40
There was a lot of anti-German bias in WWII as well Mysterian Nov 2023 #46
"Maybe the Palestinians don't want peace" Zeitghost Nov 2023 #89
Yes! LiberaBlueDem Nov 2023 #100
Most Zeitghost Nov 2023 #114
I nearly said something, but it might be insensitive, so you have to click to read this Bucky Nov 2023 #47
Excellent Post ProfessorGAC Nov 2023 #51
You have zero credibility. From a post of yours, below NoRethugFriends Nov 2023 #53
I can't take sides on this, I think both sides are equally to blame. It is up to doc03 Nov 2023 #54
You can't take side? Zeitghost Nov 2023 #165
Didn't one side have their homelands taken from them? Its a stupid war based on doc03 Nov 2023 #181
No Zeitghost Nov 2023 #208
I have't seen any "Anti-palestinian" rhetoric. Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #56
lol thats funny dembotoz Nov 2023 #65
How would a peaceful two state solution have stopped Hamas? brooklynite Nov 2023 #59
They would claudette Nov 2023 #63
Fatah might take a two-state solution, but Hamas would not. LauraInLA Nov 2023 #80
Point to any statement by Hamas that they would accept a Palestine along with Israel brooklynite Nov 2023 #83
Yes claudette Nov 2023 #61
"Egypt coordinates with Israel about what to allow because they consider Israel the occupying power" EX500rider Nov 2023 #107
In your opinion claudette Nov 2023 #115
Less opinion, more proven fact EX500rider Nov 2023 #147
A good number of trolls, a lot of shocking rhetoric from non-trolls, many ill-founded insinuations thrown around... demmiblue Nov 2023 #67
This message was self-deleted by its author gulliver Nov 2023 #71
Count me among those who's bitten their tongue while the fights have raged on DU. Emrys Nov 2023 #78
I think I know where some of the blurring of the lines between Palestinians yagotme Nov 2023 #87
Post removed Post removed Nov 2023 #103
Never said that. I'm saying there can be mental confusion when talking about both. yagotme Nov 2023 #106
Well expressed. Emotions generally outpace wisdom. cachukis Nov 2023 #171
Excellent reply, worthy of being an OP obamanut2012 Nov 2023 #172
That's why I stay out of the Israel / Gaza threads, for the most part. LuckyCharms Nov 2023 #85
I find the antisemitism to be more disturbing sarisataka Nov 2023 #88
Irony inthewind21 Nov 2023 #234
I'm afraid to whisper even a word on this subject mainer Nov 2023 #92
Exactly, it should be anti-Hamas rhetoric. brush Nov 2023 #104
So what BannonsLiver Nov 2023 #108
there is little or no 'anti-Palestinian' rhetoric on this site stopdiggin Nov 2023 #121
I just want the killing of civilians on both sides to end IronLionZion Nov 2023 #128
THIS is what is really ugly here lately MorbidButterflyTat Nov 2023 #133
Well, it's an attempt Sympthsical Nov 2023 #156
Punctuation still doesn't explain the "but", lapucelle Nov 2023 #195
And, in approx. 11 hours, with multiple responses, it still stands. yagotme Nov 2023 #161
Exactly.. the OP hasn't denied it and no amount Cha Nov 2023 #167
I would have thought that he would have edited it by now, with all the outcry. yagotme Nov 2023 #196
Yes unless that's exactly what Cha Nov 2023 #199
Had another poster here take issue with me because they thought the poster meant something else. yagotme Nov 2023 #200
As am I and everyone else calling Cha Nov 2023 #201
Ty, some seem to be, willfully blind questionseverything Nov 2023 #206
Hopefully oil goes through the roof. roamer65 Nov 2023 #149
...I also support a full Arab oil embargo on the West and Israel. roamer65 Nov 2023 #150
That will cause a massive recession and give full control to Republicans in 2024. Ace Rothstein Nov 2023 #158
...and start to save Planet Earth. roamer65 Nov 2023 #160
magats Won't "save planet Earth." Cha Nov 2023 #166
And since then the country has mostly been developed and designed around automobile usage. Ace Rothstein Nov 2023 #169
The internet has made vehicles much more of a luxury roamer65 Nov 2023 #170
Then SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2023 #173
When the climate crisis hits hard, there won't be any functional governments. roamer65 Nov 2023 #182
Right, ok n/t SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2023 #184
I can't wait to see people like you pay $8 a gallon. roamer65 Nov 2023 #185
😂😂😂 SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2023 #186
U laugh now. roamer65 Nov 2023 #187
Wow, Enjoying the possibility of watching a fellow DU'er suffer... yagotme Nov 2023 #222
You can be anti-Hamas without being anti-Palestinian JCMach1 Nov 2023 #174
If you support Hamas TexasDem69 Nov 2023 #177
Getting very polarised, true. Aussie105 Nov 2023 #179
It is difficult to be on DU now, given the pro-terrorist rhetoric. Enough said. See kelly1mm Nov 2023 #193
Weren't you the one that said Hamas was fighting for human rights? egduj Nov 2023 #197
That's funny Calculating Nov 2023 #198
I have been requested to serve for jury duty BigmanPigman Nov 2023 #202
I've been serving on tons of juries too.... Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #203
It's always difficult being Jewish when you are attacked by cowards. William769 Nov 2023 #205
DU has certainly changed over the years jcmaine72 Nov 2023 #209
It was Avalon Sparks Nov 2023 #224
Post removed Post removed Nov 2023 #225
Because we run things now, and that means maintaining the status quo. jcmaine72 Nov 2023 #235
Thank you for the Perspective Avalon Sparks Nov 2023 #236
I am still angry that Charlemagne had 5000 Saxon captives beheaded in a single day Redleg Nov 2023 #227
The U.N. started this.... Zeecat Dec 2023 #237

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
2. Hamas is a result of the atrocities by Israel against the Palestinians. Imagine your new next
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:06 AM
Nov 2023

door neighbour, who has been given preference, is now controlling you. Will you be happy with that? The problem is that both should have been recognised as a State.

SoFlaBro

(1,529 posts)
3. Terrorist fuckstains like Hamas just want to hate, harass, and eventually kill Jews just for being Jews.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:09 AM
Nov 2023

LGBTQ is next on their list of shit behavior. Not retaliatory - a way of dogshit Hamas living.

Happy or not, I wouldn't go over to my neighbor and put a knife in his infant's heart.

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
12. You look at too much propaganda on TV. I have heard that the President of Ukraine is killing
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:21 AM
Nov 2023

his own people to get more money from supporting countries. Do I believe that shit? Hell no. Please make a donation to ROLDA, they are looking for donations to feed the stranded pets in Ukraine. Thank you.

SoFlaBro

(1,529 posts)
14. I know Hamas blasted their way into Israel and started killing anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty headband.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:23 AM
Nov 2023

Celerity

(42,144 posts)
31. Pretty racist verbiage bruv
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:12 AM
Nov 2023
anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty headband


Btw, you do realise that many people at raves (like the one Hamas attacked and slaughtered 260+) wear headbands, so your statement is not only racist, but is incorrect as well.

Celerity

(42,144 posts)
82. now you are trying to spin your way out
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 10:59 AM
Nov 2023

you were clearly referring to Arabs

anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty headband


let's change the groups and use the same linguistic construct and then you tell me it is not racist as well

Blacks:

anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty do-rag

Asians:

anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty sedge hat

Jews:

anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty yarmulke

Sikhs (and other ethnic/racial groups)

anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty turban

Mexicans:

anyone that wasn't wearing a sweaty sombrero



spare me the sophistry

Mossfern

(2,311 posts)
113. How about "sweaty terrorists?"
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:50 PM
Nov 2023

I never considered 'sweaty' as a pejorative to to any specific group (rce/nationality) of people.

Celerity

(42,144 posts)
124. that is not what they typed
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:15 PM
Nov 2023

btw, it's a different type of pejorative construct (Cockney rhyming slang), but try calling a Scot a sweaty to their face and see how that likely turns out for you

I never considered 'sweaty' as a pejorative to to any specific group (rce/nationality) of people.

Mossfern

(2,311 posts)
136. It was "sweaty headbands"
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:48 PM
Nov 2023

I guess it can be construed as an insult to headbands.
This is a pretty silly debate.

Celerity

(42,144 posts)
137. it was a racist construct
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:57 PM
Nov 2023

it's pretty problematic what people are willing to support or write off if the person making the ill-conceived statement simply happens to be perceived as being on their side in terms of the subject at hand

atreides1

(16,017 posts)
134. Guess what
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:39 PM
Nov 2023

You know who else believes that gay people must die, or at least be imprisoned...certain Republicans, most conservative Evangelicals!

A lot of MAGA's think gay people should die...I guess what I'm saying is that Republicans, Evangelicals, and MAGA's have more in common with Hamas, then they're willing to admit!!!

Straw Man

(6,593 posts)
17. News Flash
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:28 AM
Nov 2023
Hamas is a result of the atrocities by Israel against the Palestinians. Imagine your new next

door neighbour, who has been given preference, is now controlling you. Will you be happy with that? The problem is that both should have been recognised as a State.

Hamas is the single biggest impediment to a two-state solution. Were you not aware of that?

Hamas is a spin-off of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that was engaging in political violence before the the state of Israel even existed. The Palestinians are as much victims of Hamas as they are of Israel.

Enough of terrorist apologetics, please. The best thing for the Palestinian people would be for Hamas to be destroyed and for a two-state solution to be implemented, along with full civil rights for Israeli Palestinians.

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
24. The solution would have been that Israel and Palestine were States. Not Israel sanctioning everything in
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:36 AM
Nov 2023

and out of Palestine. I am not an apologist for Hamas but fair is fair. Why is Israel controlling Palestine and netenyahoo continues to build settlements on the Gaza Strip. You go read up on history and don't lecture me.

Even when UNESCO tried to help Palestinians educationally, the US pulled its funding and so did our asswipe prime minster harper. How do people like you defend such atrocities?

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
39. Palestinians had a chance for a state
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:51 AM
Nov 2023

in 1948, same as Israel. At the urging of their neighbors, they rejected that state, assisted their neighbors in attacking Israel.

Bad decision.

PJMcK

(21,753 posts)
41. The Palestinian Authority...
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:02 AM
Nov 2023

… has never missed an opportunity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I’ve heard this comment going back to the 1960s.

This conflict is without a solution. It will be Hell forever.

Response to PJMcK (Reply #41)

 

Autumn_Angler

(44 posts)
204. Plus the many other times Palestinian leadership has rejected any kind of compromise
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 10:09 PM
Nov 2023

Arafat made a career of inciting infidatas, terror attacks and even entire wars whenever a peace proposal was on the table.

former9thward

(31,540 posts)
96. Israel is not building settlements on the Gaza strip.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:42 PM
Nov 2023

They have not been in Gaza since 2005. Why are you spreading such misinformation?

Straw Man

(6,593 posts)
189. Yes, and that was soundly rejected by Hamas.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:19 PM
Nov 2023

What part of that do you not get? You absolutely are an apologist for Hamas. It is literally what you are doing right now.

There haven't been Israeli settlements in Gaza since 2005. You might want to get your facts straight before you tell me to "read up on history."

Pulling funding from UNESCO may have been a stupid political move, but it hardly qualifies as an "atrocity."

PufPuf23

(8,594 posts)
95. Martin Buber thought Israel should be a single state, secular democracy.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:40 PM
Nov 2023

Not so sure that a single state is in the realm of possibility at present.

Don't know solution but don't like what is happening.

POTUS Biden is walking a fine edge, my impression is to dampen present carnage and find solid ground to move forward.

elias7

(3,973 posts)
28. Actually no. Think Al quaeda, ISIS, Hezbollah, etc.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:00 AM
Nov 2023

Fundamentalist Islamic terror groups have more to do with their rejection of “western values” as a stimulus for their holy wars against the non-Islamic. The narrative that Hamas is a result of Israeli atrocities is worth your studying a non-biased account of the history of the region.

The first so called Palestinian terror group was the PLO, founded in 1964 when Egypt controlled Gaza.

And so called Palestinian people have had the opportunity to declare a state for themselves - in 1937, 1947 and at least a half dozen times since then, as their living space has progressively lessened as a result of constant attacks of surrounding Arab nations attacks against Israel. Arafat famously left the table at Camp David where a two state solution was so close to start the 2nd intifada, which again framed the Palestinians as the victims when in fact they are pretty much indistinguishable from the other nomadic Arabs that found themselves in invented borders of new countries - Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, etc.

The whole terrorist phenomenon sprang up after 4 failed attacks by these newly formed arab nations because they did not want a two state solution - 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 - and the realization that the Jews would not be driven to the sea. This was an intentional narrative shift which has resulted in somehow Israel being called the bully of the neighborhood, though basically surrounded by 20 arab and Islamic nations in the region.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
74. I had decided to withdraw from this conversation
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:59 AM
Nov 2023

as it has become so emotional.
Your response added value to the commentary.
Hamas is a symptom.
The peoples of Palestine have not been governed like other nations in the relatively recent past. The Middle East has always had the disparate views of Shia and Sunni cropping up in the discourse.

What you didn't address was the introduction of a new state into that world that was aligned with the west, in fact established by the west.
How were those living there supposed to respond to this intrusion.

Arafat was coaxed to defy the two state solution by his allies around Israel. We, in the west, thought him a fool. As it turns out, it might have been better than nothing.

Western culture has been built on usury. The Quran admonishes usury as undermining society.

Iran is Shia, steadfast in its resolve against westernization. Saudi Arabia is Sunni, merging into the banking world of the west.

Israel and of course the US, is in the middle.

Hamas is a proxy for Iran. Ironically, they are Sunni. Hezbollah is Shia.

Anyone who loses sight of those distinctions and influences in the region are missing the politics as it plays out.

Israel isn't going away. Neither are its surroundings.

Blinken has his work cut out for him, because his state department knows of what I speak.

So do a lot of educated young people.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
132. Israel has established dominion over its
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:33 PM
Nov 2023

territory and we are where we are. They will not regress after the Palestinian attacks. It appears to be their intention to control against any aggression against their state. You can't blame them.
We are here and the Palestinians are there. We know what Israel wants.

What is to be done with Gaza and the West Bank?

Palestinians have had opportunities for peace, although short sticked.
They are under a blanket of distrust with no escape.

The US is stuck with its treaties, but its humanity is challenged by critics at home and abroad.

Politicians have a choice, defend a reasonable response to the crisis and American interests or play games to advance power plays.

The world is watching.

brush

(52,964 posts)
139. How about the Israeli government put a stop to it. And returning the land too could help.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:17 PM
Nov 2023

Last edited Sun Nov 5, 2023, 12:26 PM - Edit history (1)

"But they didn't and it is done. Now what?"...sounds kind of like, ok, I took you possession, what are you going to do about it?

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
144. You are aware of Netanyahu and autocracy, I'm sure.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:30 PM
Nov 2023

This is in Israel's hands, but they are committed to expunging Hamas. Unless he is ousted, and he represents stability in a time of crisis, the Israelis have some tough choices ahead.

Biden and Blinken cannot afford mistakes here. We are bound by our Constitution to honor our treaty with Israel. But if Biden's support falters we get to watch our own autocracy make money off our return to greatness.

brush

(52,964 posts)
207. It sure is going to be tough. There's a sliver of hope though that Bibi and his admin wiil be ousted...
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 11:21 PM
Nov 2023

for the colossal intel failure of not detecting Oct. 7 and moving to combat it.

Who knows what will happen then? Things have had to start from scratch all over again in that region so often, I don't know if there's a driving force/honest broker strong enough to start two-state negotiations again...and to see them through?

And we have to say, we, the US, are not an honest broker candidate as we're the source of the overwhelming weapons advantage Israel is using in their (gotta say it) over-retaliation in Gaza.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
210. So very true. The Israeli government
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 07:10 AM
Nov 2023

does not want to express culpability, nor do many here.
We are in a quandary as innocents continue to die.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
140. Who is going to stop Israel from decimating
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:21 PM
Nov 2023

Gaza more than what will happen in the immediate future and who will stop Likud and its support of expanding settlements in the West Bank?

We are attached at the hip right now.

The emotions are playing out in the square and here on DU.

The why's are basically moot. We are not going back. Will either side atone for their perceived sins?

Who will be the adult in the room? So far, no one.

Dorian Gray

(13,460 posts)
36. So October 7th
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:42 AM
Nov 2023

was caused by Israel?

No thank you.

We need to reckon with who Hamas is and why they're in power.

It seems to me that they've been abusing the Palestinian people, and if we were truly pro-Palestinian, we would want to work to eradicate their leadership.

Arab countries and Western organizations who purport to want what is best for the general population of Palestine NEED to look into their own consciences.

Israel isn't the demonic bad guy. No matter what you want to believe.

There is a place to hold a conversation about propping up Hamas at the expense of other Palestinian leadership. (Netanyahu has been complicit in this.). Israelis need to examine their consciences when they vote for new leadership.

But I absolutely outrightly reject that Israelis are responsible for the attack against them. Hamas is responsible. They performed atrocities. Nobody could force someone to commit acts like that.

EX500rider

(10,361 posts)
50. They were both going to be recognized as a state in 1948
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:24 AM
Nov 2023

But the Palestinians with all the surrounding Arabs help decided to try to take it all and it didn't work out.

Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
64. Both sides
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:17 AM
Nov 2023

Is anti-semetic bullshiit.

There is only one side intent on finishing the holocaust and committing genocide.

marybourg

(12,495 posts)
69. Israel was not given preference.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:33 AM
Nov 2023

There were supposed to be two states, but Palestine refused to declare itself a state, choosing instead to join the Arab countries in attacking Israel as soon as *it* declared.

And it has stubbornly continued to do the same thing for 75 years, continuing to cut off its nose to spite its face and falling further and further behind the rest of the world and blaming Israel for defending itself. This is the behavior of the Palestinian PEOPLE, not just their leaders.

totodeinhere

(12,999 posts)
98. Nothing can justify the atrocities committed by Hamas on 10/7.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:05 PM
Nov 2023

And saying that does not infer any anti-Palestinian bias.

Cha

(294,844 posts)
99. Hamas is a GD Butchering Terrorist Org that
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:13 PM
Nov 2023

Slaughtered Babies.

GD Hamas and those who apologize for them.

It's not "difficult" for me to be on DU fighting for our Rights against Magats and Fighting against gaslighting the Hamas Attacks on Israel.

wnylib

(21,146 posts)
105. What ignorance of history and disregard for facts you are revealing
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:31 PM
Nov 2023

when you post a totally untrue flaming statement.

The reason that there are not 2 states is because Palestinian Arabs rejected the UN vote in 1947 to partition Palestine into 2 states. Instead, they launched terror attacks on Jews to drive them out of Palestine so they could claim all of the land. It's historical fact that you can easily find by looking up reliable historical references.

Jews in Palestine accepted the UN vote and declared independence in 1948 as the modern state of Israel. Palestinian Arabs then launched all out war against Israel and lost. Israel drove some of them out, but the majority fled, civilians because they did not want to live under an Israeli government, and combatants because they wanted to regroup and carry out their mission to eliminate Israel and Jews. That's where the refugee camps came from.

But some Palestinian Arabs remained and their descendants are 20% of the citizen population of Israel today.

Palestinian militants have been carrying out terror attacks on Israel ever since. They joined with surrounding Arab countries to fight wars against Israel in 1967 and 1973. Terrorists from Gaza carried out attacks so often that Israel closed the border with Gaza and set up check points to protect Israeli citizens. Egypt closed its border to Gaza in order to prevent terrorists from going to Egypt to recruit people and launch attacks from there. That's how Gaza became isolated.

After Israel won the 1967 war, they allowed Israeli citizens to establish settlements in the Palestinian territory of the West Bank, (but not in Gaza). Those West Bank settlements are illegal according to international law and that land should go back to the Palestinians.

Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution during negotiations because they continue to insist that Israel has no right to exist and all the land is theirs.







Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
119. Great post
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:57 PM
Nov 2023

I would only add that after the '67 war, Israel took the West Bank from the Jordanians, not the Palestinians (who were Jordanians until 1988 when Jordan stripped them of their citizenship).

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
157. You seem to leave out that Israel didn't exist
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:04 PM
Nov 2023

before 1948. I think that was an unsettling factor that persists to today.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
178. That is not the point. The people living there,
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:56 PM
Nov 2023

regardless of what you would call them, had their lives upended.
Many here seem to think that Israel has the right to exist, but until 1948, it didn't.
Now that it is here, it has to manage its relations, mindful that they have rights too.

Mossfern

(2,311 posts)
188. Personal story- something I was considerting as an OP
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:42 PM
Nov 2023

My grandfather left Russia/Ukraine (Odessa) in the late 1800's. He was sent off when he was 13 years old to avoid being conscripted into the Czar's army... to relatives in Palestine. From there he came to the United States. To imply that there were no Jewish people living in the Palestinian territory is disingenuous.

Correct, there was not State of Israel then as there was no State of Palestine.

The Jewish people established the State of Israel in 1948, the Arabs (Palestinians) could have equally done the same thing, but refused. The Muslim nations surrounding Israel attacked it several times. Israel didn't instigated a war against them.

The history of the area has been explained several times on this forum, please read those posts with an unbiased eye.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
191. I cannot get into this. I did not say
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:28 PM
Nov 2023

there were no Jews living there, but at the time of the mandate there were less than 10,000.

I know a bit about the history.

That is not important. The people living there had their lives unsettled.

Empathize or not.

yardwork

(61,224 posts)
214. Their lives had already been upended, prior to 1948.
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 09:44 AM
Nov 2023

This fantasy that Israel swooped into a peaceful happy little corner of the globe and messed it up in 1948 is a fantasy.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
217. Never said it was a happy place.
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 10:08 AM
Nov 2023

It was under British Control/Mandate from 1917 until 1947. There was a mix of Arabs, Jews and Christians.
There was no Jewish state, there were enclaves throughout western Europe and the Middle East. Most enclaves were seriously disrupted during the war.
The British had a long colonialist heritage and felt obligated to attend to the aftermath of the war. It was modus operandi for them to dictate borders.

What was, was no longer. The tumult that followed the establishment of Israel upended the lives of millions. Arabs fled Israel and Jews were expelled from Middle Eastern countries.

Mind you, this is the Middle East, the remnants of the Ottoman Empire. Islam and the Jews have been at odds for a long time.
Suddenly, a Jewish State shows up in a part of the world that was not too happy about it.
The existing partition was not acceptable to the Arabs.

I'm not going to get into the politics, but that is a reality. What was, wasn't, pretty much overnight.

yardwork

(61,224 posts)
218. "Most (Jewish) enclaves were seriously disrupted during the war."
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 10:17 AM
Nov 2023

That's the most euphemistic description of the Holocaust I think I've ever read.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
219. I suppose, but conversations here have
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 10:41 AM
Nov 2023

been pretty dicey of late.
The conflict, as I see it, is a predicament.

There are recent antecedents that got us here and there has to be an escape.

An analysis of those events can shine a light on whose responses are in the best interest of a resolution.

Going at this with righteousness serves righteousness, not an escape.

Bad moves by a lot of people got us here. More bad moves perpetuate the predicament.

Adults generally put the children first.

Interestingly, Democrats, mostly, play by the rules and value the system. Republicans game the rules for advantage.

Looking at what's happening in Israel offers us a chance to consider the Machiavellian understanding.

Abbaas has no Authority. Hamas is dictatorial. Netanyahu is autocratic, but in a democracy. The US has influence, but wants the participants to resolve on their own.

Who is the adult in the room?

TexasDem69

(1,339 posts)
176. You are in the wrong place
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:41 PM
Nov 2023

Democrats don’t support terrorists who kill men, women and children in their homes.

SKKY

(11,718 posts)
215. Hamas is the result of Yasser Arafat not taking "Yes" for an answer...
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 09:49 AM
Nov 2023

...when Ehud Barak basically gave him everything he wanted at Camp David in 2000. But sure, whatever you say champ.

SKKY

(11,718 posts)
216. Tell me you know nothing about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict...
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 09:51 AM
Nov 2023

...without telling me you know nothing about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

SoFlaBro

(1,529 posts)
9. Hamas is MAGA - Palestine branch. Same psychotic behavior as the pieces of shit in the MAGA cult.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:18 AM
Nov 2023

Has nothing to do with being Palestinian. Has everything to do with wanting to murder toddlers.

SoFlaBro

(1,529 posts)
15. They can call themselves HAM ASS Salad. The name matters little. Terrorists are terrorists worldwide like MAGA.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:25 AM
Nov 2023

LakeArenal

(28,613 posts)
183. I agree with this.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:34 PM
Nov 2023

Also when one says XXX People are the really referring to the actual people or are they referring to governments.

To me. two different groups entirely.

I find the real humans living through wars just want them stopped.

EX500rider

(10,361 posts)
102. I'd like to see a link to one of these OP's "calling for collective punishment"
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:28 PM
Nov 2023

Or is it more likely being realistic about urban warfare and accepting that civilian causalities will be a biproduct?

druidity33

(6,415 posts)
190. What i've seen...
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:20 PM
Nov 2023

is a few people exhibiting something more like callous indifference. Statements like "Well, Hamas hides in the civilian buildings, so, what are you gonna do? Gotta bomb them out." Or "Well, they voted for Hamas, so they must hate Israel and jews too, right?!"



Happy Hoosier

(6,840 posts)
194. Resignation is not the same thing as callousness
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:46 PM
Nov 2023

I’d entertain alternatives to what’s happening now that results in Hamas being removed from power. I don’t know of one. Do you?

druidity33

(6,415 posts)
211. Of course not, i'm a cook...
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 09:13 AM
Nov 2023

not a General. Expecting a regular person to have a solution about this is somewhat unrealistic, no?



Happy Hoosier

(6,840 posts)
212. That's kinda my point....
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 09:18 AM
Nov 2023

People like Biden and Biden are doing their best on this matter. It's easy to sit on a high moral horse and criticize. It's harder to offer a genuiniely viable alternative.

So I am resigned to horrific destruction as Hamas is removed from power. I am not callous to it.

iemanja

(52,992 posts)
122. Plenty of people are justifying killing Palestinian civilians
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:05 PM
Nov 2023

To claim no one is anti-Palestine is blatantly false.

mahina

(17,417 posts)
7. It's difficult to be anywhere, to breathe in and out with everything that is going on
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:16 AM
Nov 2023

And the terrible risk we face of Joe not succeeding in 2024. It’s razor close, unimaginably.

I have steered clear of anti-Palestinian rhetoric here somehow.

Praying for safety and comfort for all the innocents, for understanding and love to emerge, somehow. Or till that day, some way to peace.

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
20. At least we are on the same page re the orange man. I don't know what 2024 will bring, but his
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:34 AM
Nov 2023

supporters are relentless in their support for him. God help us if that dipshit gets elected.

calguy

(5,104 posts)
60. His supporters are faithful to him
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:55 AM
Nov 2023

But their numbers weren't enough to get him re-elected in 2020, and he's certainly not gained many new supporters since then. His chances in 2024 are slim if you apply logic instead of rigged poll numbers.

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
19. I totally share your sentiments. I hope this will conflict will not escalate. What bothers me though, is
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:30 AM
Nov 2023

how the pundits on the news already predicting that we are close to WW3. The media needs to stop escalating crap. There are too much turmoil going on now, which we never thought to see again.

Aussie105

(5,069 posts)
21. "The media needs to stop escalating crap."
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:05 AM
Nov 2023

+1

Nerves on edge, feeling jittery, thinking a large chunk of the world is insane and you hope it doesn't spread to your neighbourhood?

Yep, the media says 'GOTCHA!' You will be back to soak up more of the same from them! And they can watch the advertising dollars roll in. Your jitters are of no concern to them.

I'm not pro- or anti- anybody in the Middle East, because I have no say in what happens there.
Why waste one's mental energy on that? Beyond lamenting the meaningless loss of life.

I didn't cause it, I'm not involved in perpetuating the insanity, people in charge need to find a solution, not me.






akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
23. I agree with you, the media escalates the situation, no matter where the conflict is. Guess their boss
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:25 AM
Nov 2023

trained them well. Create fear and the media ratings and followers go up. CNN is the worst, they are not journalists, just shitty reporters. I only look at Ayman and O'Donnell. Even my local news Global is just as shitty.
I care as the senseless loss of life gets to me. I worry when forest fires break out here. I really thought that countries invading another country was archaic, I was wrong. I sometimes wonder why the UN is so inept. Poor countries pay their dues but they do not have equal representaton.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
228. The media
Tue Nov 7, 2023, 07:04 PM
Nov 2023

riles up their viewers. You call it escalation, I call it instigating. That's the whole point of the media's existence. Viewers translate to $$$. No viewers, no $$. They can't "escalate" or instigate anything the viewers don't allow them to. Yes, it's just that simple.

Layzeebeaver

(1,518 posts)
22. This is a really (REALLY) complex problem that has taken years to fester
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:22 AM
Nov 2023

One action by one party with a counter action by the other party will not fix the problem.

After the dust settles, "Hamas II" or whatever it will call itself will slowly arise...

...and the cycle will continue.

I Hate Kissinger, but this retrospective from the CIA is quite insightful...

https://www.cia.gov/static/Review-Kissinger-MasteroftheGame.pdf

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
25. Unfortunately, the US has the same insurgents, but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas,
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:48 AM
Nov 2023

under the orange idiot, they are fighting to destablize the US. Please tell me how President Biden can stop these morons. He is not looking to annihilate them but no matter how much progress he makes with the economy and infrastructure, these trump supporters will never stop supporting him. In fact, they keep giving him money at his every beck and call. How does a Democratic President convince these people they are supporting the wrong person? That's a tall mountain to climb and both you and I know it.

Dorian Gray

(13,460 posts)
38. Hamas is NOT fighting for human rights
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:46 AM
Nov 2023

That is where all of your arguments spin out of control.

Hamas is a terrorist org and has dictatorial control over Gaza.

Nothing about human rights.

Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
66. Did you really just claim
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:21 AM
Nov 2023

That a group with the stated goal of genocide, who rapes, tortures and kills civilians is "fighting for human rights"?

Sympthsical

(8,710 posts)
73. I appreciate the mask-off honesty
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:52 AM
Nov 2023

Many people have learned to talk around their view of Hamas as resistance or liberators, because they know it wouldn't go over well. They just imply it heavily and then declare, "I didn't say that!" when pinned down on it.

So this is some refreshing honesty.

Points for not attempting the "I'm not saying what I am clearly saying!" that is rife in this subject.

claudette

(3,325 posts)
143. Can I ask a question?
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:29 PM
Nov 2023

If you were part of an oppressed people who had no government, no military, no standing in the international community to fight for your rights to EXIST as a free nation under your own rule, what would you do to fight a country that has taken your land and is financed and supplied weapons by the United States? Do you have any idea of what it is like to live in Gaza? There are many, many articles about it online. It is pathetic.

(My answer is - I would try very hard to get Israel to negotiate a solution).

I am NOT condoning terrorism that Hamas committed on 10/7. I support the innocent Palestinians who are suffering the most by the Israeli government's revenge and collective punishment bomings.

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
159. "I am NOT condoning terrorism that Hamas committed on 10/7."
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:08 PM
Nov 2023

You're skating riiiiiiiiiight up to edge of doing so by making this argument.

If you were part of an oppressed people who had no government, no military, no standing in the international community to fight for your rights to EXIST as a free nation under your own rule, what would you do to fight a country that has taken your land and is financed and supplied weapons by the United States?

That's a gnat's ass from saying, "Now, I don't condone terrorism, obviously... but gosh, if every so often they snap and murder 1400 civilians in the most savage ways imaginable, can you really blame them?"

You're also skating right up to the edge of agreeing with the Hamas spokesman who said, "Everything we do is justified."

And you're providing cover for Hamas by minimizing those words and saying you "think and hope" that other Hamas members think differently.

Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
164. I'm sorry
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:15 PM
Nov 2023

But the post I quoted was about Hamas, not the people of Gaza.

They raped, tortured and killed innocents. That isn't freedom fighting no matter what spin you put on it.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
229. Huh
Tue Nov 7, 2023, 07:11 PM
Nov 2023

"They raped, tortured and killed innocents" so did the US Military in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, by your own logic I can expect you would support Iraq bombing the US to "eliminate" the problem?

BlueCheeseAgain

(1,654 posts)
168. I'm confused by your question.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:35 PM
Nov 2023

I assume the "oppressed people who had no government, no military, no standing in the international community to fight for your rights to EXIST" are the Palestinians, right? (I'm guessing that you're not considering Hamas and its military wing as a government or a military, and not counting Palestine's observer status at the UN.)

I further interpret your question as basically asking, "Given this dire situation, what else would you expect but some sort of action such as that which happened on 10/7?" As in, while you don't condone 10/7 yourself, you feel that Israel kind of pushed people to the point where they would react this way.

The reason I'm confused by your question, then, is that it wasn't Palestinians in general who carried out the 10/7 massacre. It was Hamas. If, indeed, as is commonly stated, that Hamas does not represent Palestinians in Gaza, then why do you bring up the living conditions in Gaza?

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
221. The statement you made below does not apply to Gazans:
Mon Nov 6, 2023, 10:31 PM
Nov 2023
If you were part of an oppressed people who had no government, no military, no standing in the international community to fight for your rights to EXIST as a free nation under your own rule


Except about being oppressed. By their own government, which you say they don't have. Which controls the streets of Gaza with the military/militant branch, of which you say they don't have. If they don't have a government, then why don't they form one? What's stopping them from forming their own military? Must be all those guys running around carrying AK's, that are supported by guys who don't exist. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

Wingus Dingus

(8,049 posts)
123. I guess it IS difficult seeing such a noted "human-rights group" like HAMAS
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:06 PM
Nov 2023

being slandered here...

sarisataka

(18,066 posts)
90. Well that certainly makes things clear
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:04 PM
Nov 2023

"but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas"


And we have been told no one supports Hamas...

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
94. "...but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas."
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:24 PM
Nov 2023

I'm trying to understand how the premeditated rape, mutilation, torture, abduction, and murder of civilians, including women, children, and the elderly, is "fighting for human rights."

Help me out here.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
231. Well
Tue Nov 7, 2023, 07:17 PM
Nov 2023

The us military raped, mutilated and tortured civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and black sites all over the world in the "war on terrorism" including women, children and the elderly while claiming to fight for freedom and human rights. How do you feel about that? Terrorists or liberators?

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
233. Remind me again about how the US military explicitly set out to rape, mutilate, and torture civilians as their goal?
Tue Nov 7, 2023, 07:24 PM
Nov 2023

Last edited Tue Nov 7, 2023, 07:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Oh, that's right, they didn't. Lynndie England and her fellows from the 372nd Military Police Company were brought up on charges, tried, and imprisoned by the United States. If you have proof of other incidents like it that weren't prosecuted appropriately, I suggest you get in touch with the Judge Advocate General Corps office at the Pentagon.

Get back to me when Hamas arrests, charges, tries, and imprisons or executes the savages who set out with the explicit, deliberate intent to rape, torture, mutilate, burn alive, kidnap, and murder 1400+ people on 10/7.

Layzeebeaver

(1,518 posts)
97. You are responding to an entirely different point.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:02 PM
Nov 2023

This is nothing about what is going on inside the U.S.

This is a long-lived and deeply complex international/global issue that has been festering for generations. Sure, the U.S. and the west have had a hand in the festering. However, let us now choose to not commingle internal and external issues.

Your reply only creates a diversion. Well done, if that's what you intended.

Response to akbacchus_BC (Reply #25)

akbacchus_BC

(5,700 posts)
27. I know, always liked your posts, even the bad word ones.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:58 AM
Nov 2023

I too am sick of all the turmoil. Never thought countries or politicians are into wars and invasions in this century. Just makes me wonder if the earth should reclaim its space. Humans are too cruel.

Skittles

(152,882 posts)
32. it is difficult for me to hear about bombings
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:13 AM
Nov 2023

my mum survived bombs as a child in England during WWII and that trauma never, ever leaves a person, not ever

FBaggins

(26,596 posts)
30. You should cease acting surprised when DUers equate support of Palestinians with support of Hamas...
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:04 AM
Nov 2023

... If you're going to misrepresent anti-Hamas rhetoric as being anti-Palestinian.

Enough said.

Chainfire

(17,192 posts)
57. Your point is valid until you consider that some folks here have implied that the two, Hamas and Palestinian are
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:51 AM
Nov 2023

one and the same. If a person, or a nation, dehumanizes the people of Palestine, by claiming that they are all terrorists, or the supporters of terrorism, then that grants license to destroy them and the infrastructure that keeps them alive. Both sides have the same philosophy that the only path to peace is violence and would rather fight than talk, rather kill than compromise, and both sides want to displace or destroy the other. When both sides love to hate, It is the perfect setup for perpetual war.

I do not, in any way, condone or excuse, the deadly terrorist action that started this current round of fighting; it was abhorrent to me, but I think that I understand why it happened. I also believe that if I were a Palestinian, I would be dedicated to eliminating Israel, and that If I were an Israeli, I would be perfectly willing to destroy or displace al Palestinians. We become who we are told we are; we are all products of our societies.

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
33. I don't think anyone here is anti-Palestinian.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:25 AM
Nov 2023

Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:50 AM - Edit history (1)

I think everyone here is anti-terrorism. Various subgroups of Palestinians have resorted to terrorism because they totally reject the notion that Israel should exist at all. That is, after all, what "from the river to the sea" means. They want it all. They want all the land for a Palestinian state, which would result in Israel ceasing to exist. As long as they're working from that expectation, no progress can be made on this issue. Israel isn't going to and can't be expected to negotiate itself out of existence.

Various two-state solutions have been proposed over the years and none have come to fruition, and there's fault for that on both sides of the table. I won't claim otherwise. But the Palestinians have to accept that terrorism isn't going to get them all the land they want, and they have to accept that they're going to have to compromise.

That's just reality. Liking reality is optional; accepting reality is mandatory.

claudette

(3,325 posts)
62. Oh but some seem to be
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:08 AM
Nov 2023

They post that ordinary Palestinians are also responsible for what Hamas does because they voted for them or they don’t STOP them from attacking Israel.

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
70. Well, stating that Gazans voted for Hamas is factual. They did.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:45 AM
Nov 2023

Like many facts, though, it needs to be framed in the proper context. Gazans voted for Hamas nearly 20 years ago and there have been no elections since, so it's not as if they voted Hamas into power last year and now here we are. If elections were held tomorrow, perhaps they'd choose differently.

It's worth noting, though, that Hamas in 2006 and Hamas in 2023 are pretty much identical. They were dedicated to the ideal of the destruction of Israel in 2006 when they were voted into power, and they're still dedicated to that ideal today. That's also part of the context.

Whether Hamas was "in charge" of Gaza or not, they'd still be attacking Israel, so for all practical purposes it doesn't really matter. If the Palestinian Authority were running the show in Gaza, Hamas would just be an underground group, figuratively and literally.

Insofar as stopping Hamas goes, I'm not sure how unarmed civilians taking on a ruthless, armed terrorist group is supposed to work, so in my opinion that's a silly suggestion.

claudette

(3,325 posts)
72. However
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:51 AM
Nov 2023

That doesn’t prove that ALL those who voted for Hamas approve of what they did on October 7. And. Palestinian children do NOT vote so why are they victims of the bombings. Don’t say they are used as shields. That doesn’t justify Israel’s murdering them. Period

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
84. I didn't say all who voted for Hamas approved of 10/7.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 11:54 AM
Nov 2023

As a practical matter, probably most did. They voted for Hamas knowing full well who they are and what their goals were. Given demographics, though, those who voted almost 20 years ago are a small minority of the population of Gaza.

And if Hamas uses them as shields, the IDF will do what they have to do to protect Israelis. They can't just not attack a Hamas rocket launch site and allow it to continue launching rockets into Israel.

If Hamas cared about the people of Gaza, they'd place their military assets elsewhere. Since they don't do that, the only conclusion I can draw is that they don't care or actively want civilian casualties.

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
93. I can just as easily reply that everything you said sounds a lot like Hamas talking points.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:18 PM
Nov 2023

Where does that get us, though?

claudette

(3,325 posts)
118. Yes, you can say that, but
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:56 PM
Nov 2023

I think it's a fact that NO child votes in Palestine. As for mothers of those children who may get murdered by a group that Israel attacks, I doubt they do support Hamas.

stopdiggin

(10,929 posts)
131. you haven't been listening to those same voices
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:30 PM
Nov 2023

many of then unequivocally do support ...

(even so .. the vast majority of posting here on DU make a very clear distinction between Palestinian vs Hamas)

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
142. From a thread you have posted in:
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:29 PM
Nov 2023
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218425016#post25
but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas


I haven't seen any

You must have missed that one.

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
146. "Condoning an attack" is different than "supporting Hamas".
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:39 PM
Nov 2023

Sub thread was talking about posts on this site supporting Hamas. You stated that you didn't see any. I provided link to post supporting Hamas, from a thread you posted in, and I presumed, read. Now, you move goalposts, changing the words in the topic being discussed.

claudette

(3,325 posts)
148. Exactly what do you
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:45 PM
Nov 2023

mean by "supporting" Hamas? One can understand that Palestinians have no one to fight for their freedom from oppression because they don't have a standing military or a working government.

NO ONE I've seen supports the tactics used by Hamas, but maybe they understand (NOT CONDONE) the fact that they know no other way to fight for their rights against a nation that is armed and financed by the U.S. THAT is NOT "supporting" Hamas' terrorism. in my view

Years ago it was Palestinian children throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers that started Israel's attacks that killed thousand. Somehow Hamas has terrible weapons now and the danger is much worse. It has to end - and will only end if they sit down and talk. Nuttyahoo does not want a ceasefire - so why do so many here support that?

Willto

(292 posts)
151. Good Grief
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:52 PM
Nov 2023
It has to end - and will only end if they sit down and talk.


Find me any statement issued by Hamas that indicates they want to talk and find a peaceful solution. I'll wait. They refuse to even recognize Israel's right to exist and call for the extermination of all Jews on the planet. What are you going to "Talk" about with such people? Maybe try to barter then down to only killing 75% of the Jews on the planet?

claudette

(3,325 posts)
154. It was almost
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:58 PM
Nov 2023

resolved years ago. Rabin was assassinated by a member of the party that Nuttyahoo led. The oppression persisted and it got worse over the years. Nuttyahoo doesn't want a ceasefilre so there can be no "talk" until that happens. It's obvious that Hamas does not have the power to kill all Jews on the planet and Israel knows this. It seems that his goal is to reclaim Gaza back to Israel after getting rid of as many Palestinians as possible. Why else is he destroying so much of the infrastructure and wants to send Palestinians away from their homeland?

Willto

(292 posts)
192. A Groups ability
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:42 PM
Nov 2023
It's obvious that Hamas does not have the power to kill all Jews on the planet and Israel knows this.


The degree to which you possess the ability to do something IN NO WAY dilutes the evil of the desire and the attempt to do it. IN NO WAY!

Besides Hamas managed to kill over 1000 Israelis in a single day so I hardly think their threats and stated goals can just be dismissed as idle talk.

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
152. Look closely at the phrase.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:54 PM
Nov 2023

"Hamas is fighting for human rights."

How did they start this fight? By killing civilians. Women. Children. Babies. Torturing them. Rape. Kidnapping. And not just a couple. Over 1,000. And they did this, knowing what Israel's response would be. If you can explain to me how that is "fighting for human rights", I'd really like to see it.

EX500rider

(10,361 posts)
153. "because they don't have a standing military or a working government"
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:57 PM
Nov 2023

Military wing of Hamas:

Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades
Battalions of martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam'; often shortened to Al-Qassam Brigades, named after Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, is the military wing of the Palestinian organization Hamas.

Working government:

Hamas has 16 different government Ministries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_government_of_October_2016

Willto

(292 posts)
155. Good Post EX500rider
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:02 PM
Nov 2023

The facts in your post goes to show that many of the people posting about this situation either have NO CLUE of what they are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting the facts if they do. Only they can say which is true.

 

PBateman70

(62 posts)
180. Oh no
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:11 PM
Nov 2023

There appears to be quite a few on here who are anti-palestinian. Not caring if innocent Palestinians are being killed by Israeli is anti-palestinian.

Hamas is the enemy not the Palestinian people.

multigraincracker

(32,341 posts)
35. Human Culture, as found in the study of
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:37 AM
Nov 2023

Cultural Anthropology, shows us that nature vs nurture is a strange thing when studied by science.

Both sides in this conflict share the same genes. If you were to take a new born child of the most radical parents of either side and switch that child with one from the parents of the other side you might be surprised at the result.
Booth children would grow up with the exact same views as their adopted parents. It’s culture not genes that guide their politics. Hate is learned. The child brought up by a radical of either side would be like those that raised them.
Kind of makes it all kind of silly.

ShazzieB

(15,528 posts)
40. As some have said already, I am not anti-Palestinian. I am anti-Hamas.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:01 AM
Nov 2023

I am also pro-Israel, in principle, in that I passionately believe in the need for a Jewish homeland and the right of Israel to exist, but I am becoming less and less supportive of the way Israel has been responding to this crisis. There is a difference between self-defense and retaliation, and I feel that Israel's leaders have crossed that line repeatedly. If they continue as they have, Israel's standing in the world is going to be badly damaged, if it isn't already, and I hate to see that happen. (It goes without saying that this is on top of my concern for the humanitarian issues. Bombing ambulances is beyond the pale, afaic.)

At this point, I'm strongly in favor of what Biden calls a humanitarian pause in the hostilities, and I hope to hell he and Secretary Blinken can get the Israel government to agree to one. I know they're trying hard.

I am very tired of Netanyahu's intransigence and unwillingness to listen to reason. Sometimes I wonder if he's over-compensating for the bone headed errors (ignoring intelligence, etc.) that allowed Hamas to pull off their attack on the music festival. He needs to stop.

In addition to all of the above, I am throughly sick and tired of the constant fighting about it here at DU. I've been avoiding those threads for the last few days, because it just got to be too much. Even now, I am uncomfortable saying what I really think about certain things. If I express support for Israel, I'm afraid of bring accused of being anti-Palestinian. If I express concern for the welfare of the Palestinian people, I'm afraid of being labeled antisemitic. It's easier to just stay out of those threads. (And yet I couldn't resist responding to this one. Go figure.)

Mysterian

(4,448 posts)
46. There was a lot of anti-German bias in WWII as well
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:23 AM
Nov 2023

As soon as the Nazis were defeated, things got a lot better for Germany. Too bad for civilians in the area, but the hateful, murdering Hamas garbage must be eliminated before things can get better for Palestine.

I remember when Yasser Arafat had a good deal on the table and he said "fuck you." Maybe the Palestinians don't want peace. In which case, they are getting just what they asked for right now.

Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
89. "Maybe the Palestinians don't want peace"
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:04 PM
Nov 2023

As a group, they do not. That want Israel wiped off the map and the Jews dead. They have repeatedly turned down chances to live side by side in peace with Israel and have chosen hate and violence instead.

Hamas is in power because of the will of the majority of the people in Gaza, not in spite of them.

LiberaBlueDem

(862 posts)
100. Yes!
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:20 PM
Nov 2023

All Palace-stinians want to take over and rule.

Thank Gawd we have people talking for ALL Palace-tinians on here.

Bucky

(53,557 posts)
47. I nearly said something, but it might be insensitive, so you have to click to read this
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:38 AM
Nov 2023

It's only difficult it's be on DU if it's difficult to read opinions that you disagree with. Under ordinary circumstances I don't see why other people having different opinions than mine would be bothersome

But despite me being horrified it all the utterly pointless carnage, in my safe little Western cocoon, my awareness of the carnage is really just an opinion. I don't have skin in this game.

We all need to remember that Israel suffered a a brutal and intimate massacre, face-to-face killing and butchering and hunting down citizens by killers who don't mind looking you in the eye and before slaughtering your family before you... And in historical terms it's not unique. This sort of brutality lurks right under the surface at any and every peace attempt they might be invited to. And we all need to remember that Palestinian lives are just as important as Israeli lives. We need to recall that despite the spectacular explosions that signal the loss of thousands of lives in Palestine, what's happening throughout Gaza is only a fast motion version of what's been happening to the Palestinians in their lands all along.

ProfessorGAC

(63,874 posts)
51. Excellent Post
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:30 AM
Nov 2023

Giving it a rec.
Besides, I see people making the polar opposite complaints. Maybe the OP should only read those.

NoRethugFriends

(2,126 posts)
53. You have zero credibility. From a post of yours, below
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:34 AM
Nov 2023

"Unfortunately, the US has the same insurgents, but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas,..."

doc03

(35,005 posts)
54. I can't take sides on this, I think both sides are equally to blame. It is up to
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:40 AM
Nov 2023

them to work it out, we can't be the world's policemen.

Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
165. You can't take side?
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:21 PM
Nov 2023

In a conflict where one side has as it's stated mission the elimination of an entire race of people from the face of the planet?

You can't take sides where one side has raped and tortured civilians and has vowed to do it again if given the opportunity?


I understand Israel isn't perfect, but anyone using the "both sides" argument is either ignorant or condoning evil.

doc03

(35,005 posts)
181. Didn't one side have their homelands taken from them? Its a stupid war based on
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:18 PM
Nov 2023

Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 07:05 PM - Edit history (1)

religion that has gone on for centuries and it won't ever end until they learn co-exist or one side wipes out the other. The people on both sides are caught in the middle.

Zeitghost

(3,678 posts)
208. No
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 01:35 AM
Nov 2023

The Sunni Arab population in that area has plenty of homelands (Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc.) and those who stayed within Israel upon its formation and didn't leave in order to make war live just fine.

Those that chose genocide and violence didn't make out so well, but as they say, fuck around and find out.

Happy Hoosier

(6,840 posts)
56. I have't seen any "Anti-palestinian" rhetoric.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:51 AM
Nov 2023

I have seen anti Hamas rhetoric. I’ll give you some more. Fuck Hamas.

Hamas has doomed thousands of civilians to death with their callous disregard for civilian life by deliberately provoking this war.

claudette

(3,325 posts)
63. They would
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:14 AM
Nov 2023

be free to govern themselves and have a standing military to protect Palestinians. They would have unhindered access to be able to supply their own water and electricity or whatever else is needed. And the ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank would stop and all that stolen land of settlements returned to Palestine. That’s just for starters. Gaza would not be under siege and oppression

claudette

(3,325 posts)
61. Yes
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:04 AM
Nov 2023

It is disheartening. I found an informative article in Mother Jones online magazine. I learned a lot from it.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/shibley-telhami-israel-palestine-gaza-biden-netanyahu-hamas-settlements/

The Misguided Stories Americans Tell Themselves About Israel and Palestine

“….We believe that the entire territory—the West Bank, Israel, and Gaza—has in effect been a one-state reality. In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority is really no more than a service provider at a local level to the Palestinians, and something like a subcontractor for Israeli security. It certainly has no power in defending Palestinians against not only Israeli military incursions, but even against settler violence, which is expanding in the West Bank.

Even related to Gaza, where Israel had actually withdrawn, Gaza has not been an independent state. Gaza has been under blockade for years. Even before it was technically a blockade and long before Hamas took over, Israel was still considered the occupying power. Gaza doesn’t have sovereignty. Gaza cannot have exit to the outside world through Israel. Gaza does not have access to the sea. It does not have access to the air. Even though there’s an opening to Egypt, Egypt coordinates with Israel about what to allow because they consider Israel the occupying power….”

EX500rider

(10,361 posts)
107. "Egypt coordinates with Israel about what to allow because they consider Israel the occupying power"
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:36 PM
Nov 2023

Yeah, no
Egypt has found the more the border is open the more terrorism they have in the Sinai coming from Gaza.

EX500rider

(10,361 posts)
147. Less opinion, more proven fact
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:40 PM
Nov 2023
Why doesn t Egypt open borders to Gaza?
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sisi's most serious domestic political rival. And Egypt has faced Islamist terror in the Sinai Peninsula since the 2011 revolution that toppled the Mubarak regime. For all these reasons, shortly after Hamas took over Gaza in 2007, Egypt sealed the border.

By 2018, according to Human Rights Watch, Egypt had razed the entire Sinai city of Rafah on the Egyptian side of the borders, destroying thousands of homes and displacing 70,000 persons, to create a nearly mile-wide buffer zone to prevent the movement of weapons and terrorists in tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. To emphasize the point, Egypt even flooded those tunnels. Two years later, in 2020, Egypt built a 20-foot reinforced concrete wall that reaches 16 feet below ground.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/why-egypt-wont-open-border-its-palestinian-neighbors#:~:text=Hamas%20is%20an%20offshoot%20of,2007%2C%20Egypt%20sealed%20the%20border.

demmiblue

(36,669 posts)
67. A good number of trolls, a lot of shocking rhetoric from non-trolls, many ill-founded insinuations thrown around...
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:22 AM
Nov 2023

the ignore function is your friend.

Response to akbacchus_BC (Original post)

Emrys

(7,161 posts)
78. Count me among those who's bitten their tongue while the fights have raged on DU.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 10:20 AM
Nov 2023

Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)

I'll make an exception for this reply. I've long had a policy of not discussing Israel-Palestine issues on American forums because I don't see anything I have to say as being able to persuade those who are likely to leap on anything I write and often argue in bad faith because no verbal conflict on this can go unwon.

I read Twitter (very selectively), newspapers, watch some TV news (mainly the UK's Channel 4) and some other online sites, and the balance of expressed opinion on DU jars a great deal with the balance of sentiments I see elsewhere, and certainly in my own country, Scotland.

The Scottish First Minister, Humza Yousaf, has had inlaws trapped in Gaza since the Hamas atrocity, and they were only able to leave a couple of days ago having said what they feared might be their final goodbyes a number of times. He went public with his and his wife's anguish, and also reached out to the Scottish Jewish community in heartfelt sympathy, and was welcomed. He has been calling for a ceasefire from the start. He has also condemned in absolute terms Hamas's attack. The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has done the same, and has also been sure to reach out to the London Jewish community as well as people of his own faith and none.

It seems no one can post on the issues around this conflict on DU without being pounced upon, usually by what appears to be a gang of the same screennames that always crop up and generally rehearse the same hasbara arguments over and over, usually laced with the old debate-stopper, accusations of antisemitism.

Perhaps because I do have a "side" in this conflict, my perception is that this happens more to people who criticize the Israeli government, and especially its conduct since Hamas's atrocities.

My "side" has long been with the broad left in Israel and others who oppose their government's policies, along with Palestinians who have suffered brutal, often fatal, attacks, land theft, unlawful detention, illegal destruction and confiscation of their crops and property, and manipulation of their political life for far too many years while Israel's government has done nothing to protect them, but on the contrary has encouraged the West Bank settlers and also Hamas. Any analysis of the current eruption of conflict that doesn't include that historical conflict or handwaves it away is disgraceful, and it's impossible to believe that intelligent, politically aware people can defend it in good faith.

Netanyahu has boasted repeatedly about how he has thwarted any attempts to resolve the Palestinian issue over the years to serve his own agenda. I could post a video of him literally doing so, but the tendency too often is to dismiss any such evidence on the basis of its source, or embark on baroque justifications that end up in dizzying bouts of goalpost-shifting and selective readings of history that get nobody anywhere.

He is the prime mover behind a horrible situation, though he has plenty of fellow travellers, and Hamas are as much his tools as they are of any other malign entity. Blaming the Palestinian population for not choosing a different, less savage and corrupt government than Hamas ignores the fact that to change the situation, ordinary Palestinians would have to face down not just Hamas, but the covert and sometimes not so covert sabotage of the Israeli government.

I have watched Israeli ambassadors and government spokespeople in mainstream TV interviews, and have to say that their arrogance and the inhumanity of their language has done more to incite anti-Israeli feeling than almost anything, to the extent that the Israeli government has stopped fielding the Israeli Ambassador to the UK (Tzipi Hotovely, a savage and notorious rightwinger even before she took up the post), I suspect because they realized she was turning people against them.

I would warn people who adopt some of the same complacent, self-justificatory and often utterly heartless lines of argument on DU that they are in danger of achieving the same result. There's no point in "winning" an argument if in the course of doing so you reveal attitudes that would not appear on DU (or at least not without being seriously challenged) in relation to conflicts involving other countries.

I'm not going to repeat some of the objectionable arguments I've seen on DU, but any who say they haven't seen anti-Hamas sentiment stray into anti-Palestinian rhetoric and victim-blaming are either being selective in the truth they write or have become selectively blind to it.

As an example of the depths I've seen some sink to, I alerted on one post a few weeks ago that called for Hamas captives to be tortured in "medieval" ways. Just before then, the poster had posted in the same thread in favour of torturing Hamas captives as some sort of deterrent. When challenged on this on the grounds of illegality and the fact that torture has proven ineffective, he doubled down and said that was because it hadn't been savage enough, and his solution was to go "truly medieval". Both replies stood for a couple of days before my nagging conscience led me to alert on the worse reply. It was a sort of test of DU, fair or not. My alert was upheld. As far as I know, the earlier reply that called for plain old torture still stands. If anybody else alerted on it, it must have been allowed to pass by the jury

This is on a site that sprang into life on the back of Bush's stolen election and weathered the years of wrongheaded conflict in Afganistan and Iraq, where I believe widespread horror and anger was expressed at the systematic torture dealt to prisoners in those wars.

There's an old adage: Be careful who you choose as an enemy, or you may grow to resemble them.

I don't know whether this reply is going to attract any attention at all, or even be alerted on and hidden as unacceptable in some way. It would be nice if any responses didn't just confirm my earlier experiences described above and my long-held stance of not arguing about Israel-Palestine on American forums. I give notice that my ignore finger is itchy if it leads to any personal attacks. Life's too short.

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
87. I think I know where some of the blurring of the lines between Palestinians
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:00 PM
Nov 2023

and Hamas occur. I have come close at times, because of the fact that Hamas is "the" government in Gaza, representing Palestinians, and the mental line between the government and the population can be skipped over, unfortunately. Talking about Hamas, is technically, talking about Palestinians, although it is a sub-group. Similar to other countries blaming "America" for Trump. Not all Americans voted for him, but he was the elected representative for the nation. None of us are perfect.

Response to yagotme (Reply #87)

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
106. Never said that. I'm saying there can be mental confusion when talking about both.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 01:34 PM
Nov 2023

Cite where I said they all have to share the blame.

cachukis

(2,107 posts)
171. Well expressed. Emotions generally outpace wisdom.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:47 PM
Nov 2023

Rudimentary inclinations exist in every forum. I guess we are a microchosm of society and the commentary should be expected.
Hopefully everyone is able to step back and learn from our peers.

LuckyCharms

(17,164 posts)
85. That's why I stay out of the Israel / Gaza threads, for the most part.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 11:57 AM
Nov 2023

Some of the best minds in the world have been trying to solve this issue.

I'm not smart enough to come up with some great revelation on how to approach this.

sarisataka

(18,066 posts)
88. I find the antisemitism to be more disturbing
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:02 PM
Nov 2023

Because in some cases I don't know if the person is unaware they are using antisemitic tropes to criticize Israel or if they are completely aware of what they are doing

mainer

(12,006 posts)
92. I'm afraid to whisper even a word on this subject
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 12:10 PM
Nov 2023

It's possible to be anti-Hamas, but not anti-Palestinian
It's possible to be anti-Israeli government, but not anti-semitic.

And yet, we're trapped in this "you're either for us or against us" rhetoric, when most of us are simply against the slaughter of all innocents.

stopdiggin

(10,929 posts)
121. there is little or no 'anti-Palestinian' rhetoric on this site
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:03 PM
Nov 2023

and on those rare occasions when something 'questionable' has been expressed - it has been immediately called out and rebuked. I'm sorry if you are having a tough time, but DU is not contributing to the situation.

IronLionZion

(45,044 posts)
128. I just want the killing of civilians on both sides to end
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:17 PM
Nov 2023

Nobody is interested in exploring non-deadly options

MorbidButterflyTat

(1,564 posts)
133. THIS is what is really ugly here lately
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 02:33 PM
Nov 2023

akbacchus_BC (5,686 posts) 25.

"Unfortunately, the US has the same insurgents, but they are not fighting for human rights, like Hamas, under the orange idiot, they are fighting to destablize the US."

The comma between "rights" and "like" should be a semi-colon.

The disingenuous, deliberate misreading of an admittedly clunky sentence to fit your manufactured outrage narrative.

Then, of course, the inevitable pile on.

lapucelle

(17,986 posts)
195. Punctuation still doesn't explain the "but",
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:39 PM
Nov 2023

And with the semicolon, we have

Like Hamas, under the orange idiot, they are fighting to destablize [sic] the US.






Cha

(294,844 posts)
167. Exactly.. the OP hasn't denied it and no amount
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:34 PM
Nov 2023

of explaining the quote is going to change what was posted.

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
196. I would have thought that he would have edited it by now, with all the outcry.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:44 PM
Nov 2023

At least specify one way or another.

yagotme

(2,715 posts)
200. Had another poster here take issue with me because they thought the poster meant something else.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:51 PM
Nov 2023

I told them, unless the post is edited, I'm going to have to assume that the post reads as it stands.

Cha

(294,844 posts)
201. As am I and everyone else calling
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:55 PM
Nov 2023

her out.

I wrote a couple of scathing posts. about it.. crickets.

roamer65

(36,736 posts)
150. ...I also support a full Arab oil embargo on the West and Israel.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 03:51 PM
Nov 2023

That will force the needed rationing to reduce CO2 emissions.

roamer65

(36,736 posts)
160. ...and start to save Planet Earth.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:08 PM
Nov 2023

From 1942-1945, most Americans got 3-4 gallons a week. That was it. It can be done.

Ace Rothstein

(3,084 posts)
169. And since then the country has mostly been developed and designed around automobile usage.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:39 PM
Nov 2023

It is going to take decades to get to a place where personal vehicles are not needed.

roamer65

(36,736 posts)
170. The internet has made vehicles much more of a luxury
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:45 PM
Nov 2023

eBay, Amazon, work itself.

…and it is THEIR oil and can sell it to who they want. Just like we embargo Cuba and North Korea.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
173. Then
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 04:59 PM
Nov 2023

You’re in favor of tanking the economy completely, which will result in Republican majorities across state and federal governments.

roamer65

(36,736 posts)
187. U laugh now.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 06:41 PM
Nov 2023

Let see where this all goes in a few months and see who is laughing then.

Ehud Barak even said Israel has only a few more weeks of this and world opinion will be completely against them.

JCMach1

(27,529 posts)
174. You can be anti-Hamas without being anti-Palestinian
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:22 PM
Nov 2023

In the same way as you can be anti-Netanyahu and anti-right Israeli government without being anti-Semitic.

Having said that.

Hamas wildly escalated the status quo and are reaping that whirlwind. You take yourself to the level of ISIS, expect to be treated accordingly.

TexasDem69

(1,339 posts)
177. If you support Hamas
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:45 PM
Nov 2023

You shouldn’t be on DU in the first place. Every single death in Israel or Gaza since October 7 has been the fault of Hamas. And if you don’t realize that, you shouldn’t be on DU. It’s not complicated or controversial.

Aussie105

(5,069 posts)
179. Getting very polarised, true.
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:58 PM
Nov 2023

Lots of threads where an opposing or more moderate point of view is cut to shreds.

Just agree with the original post. No discussion beyond that tolerated, sort of thing.

egduj

(804 posts)
197. Weren't you the one that said Hamas was fighting for human rights?
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 08:59 PM
Nov 2023

I have no doubt it's been difficult for you.

Calculating

(2,954 posts)
198. That's funny
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 09:36 PM
Nov 2023

I find it difficult dealing with the terrorist sympathizers. Hamas did absolutely horrible things on that day, putting babies in the oven, torturing families to death in front of each other, rape, setting people on fire. It would be one thing if they were just killing, but the went out of their way to make it as awful as possible.

BigmanPigman

(51,300 posts)
202. I have been requested to serve for jury duty
Sat Nov 4, 2023, 10:06 PM
Nov 2023

more in the last month than in the last 2 years combined.

I am a pacifist and an atheist and a misanthrope. All of this shit pisses me off every day of my life, knowing it will never change. Thousands of years from now humans will be continuing the same shit. This is what we do.

Isn't this lovely?

jcmaine72

(1,772 posts)
209. DU has certainly changed over the years
Sun Nov 5, 2023, 06:47 AM
Nov 2023

Ironically enough, twenty years ago, in the midst of all the fearmongering, warmongering, hatemongrring and simplistic, unnuanced "You're either with us or the terrorists", rhetoric being spewed in the aftermath of 9/11 from virtually every quarter of American society, DU was one of the few bastions of sanity and reason. DU skewed to the left of the mainstream of the Democratic Party then. Today, it is mainstream.

That said, the world has changed a lot since then as well. Thanks to social media, which was virtually non-existent twenty years ago, one can find an agreeable niche on virtually any topic. There's no need feel alienated or outnumbered any longer simply because you're swimming against the ephemeral tide of popular opinion on one particular forum.

DU is awesome for what it still is, and there are still many terrific and brilliant people who post here, but when the space it occupies gets a little tight under the big tent we as Democrats love, there are always other options.

Avalon Sparks

(2,507 posts)
224. It was
Tue Nov 7, 2023, 01:12 AM
Nov 2023

It was a million times better in the early 2000’s, and now I honestly often can’t tell the difference between DU now and what Free Republic was then.

Sad how far to the right it’s moved.

Response to Avalon Sparks (Reply #224)

jcmaine72

(1,772 posts)
235. Because we run things now, and that means maintaining the status quo.
Thu Nov 9, 2023, 05:32 PM
Nov 2023

Even if our status quo is better than the reTHug version of it, it is still a status quo nonetheless. That fosters conservative thought processes whether we admit it or not, and an inevitable tug to the center/right. We now have something to maintain....to conserve, and that something is POWER. Anything causing turbulence is a potential threat that must be discredited and/or destroyed, even if it is centered around core principles once thought to be defining and indispensable. In that sense, the mainstream of any party in charge doesn't really need an "underground". Such places are by definition subversive and a threat to the status quo.

It was a different ballgame twenty years ago. In the wake of the stolen election of 2000 and the war hysteria that swept the nation following 9/11, with its accompanying hard shift to the right, many of us on the left felt powerless, underrepresented, alienated and bereft. Having a place like DU to retreat to was, if nothing else, a solace.

Meh...as the most overused expression in the 21st century goes, it is what it is.


Avalon Sparks

(2,507 posts)
236. Thank you for the Perspective
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 07:33 PM
Nov 2023

Appreciate the thoughtful response, read it twice.

You made some astute points that I had not considered.

Redleg

(5,667 posts)
227. I am still angry that Charlemagne had 5000 Saxon captives beheaded in a single day
Tue Nov 7, 2023, 02:46 PM
Nov 2023

and people think of him as a great king.

More on topic: There is some subtle and not-so-subtle anti Palestinian sentiment here at DU. Blaming the current Palestinian residents of Gaza for the mistakes of their forebears is one of them. Dismissing concerns about the well-being of Gazan non-combatants is another.

Zeecat

(6 posts)
237. The U.N. started this....
Fri Dec 1, 2023, 10:02 PM
Dec 2023

And the U.N. needs to finish what it started in 1948 not the US. The countries in the U.N. need to make it a priority to solve the 2 state solution in the most amicable way possible.

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