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Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:35 PM

Newsweek: "Bernie Sanders on Immigrants: Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate"

In another thread discussing Bernie's response to Trump's wall speech, I had pointed out that Bernie had opposed immigration reform in 2007. Well, some folks responded that Bernie has "evolved" on immigration and that he regretted that vote. Okay, has he evolved since 2015 when he, in his own words, described liberal immigration policies as a "Koch Brothers proposal"? This is notable because no one has advocated open borders. The 2007 immigration reform bill was not an open border bill. The fact of the matter is that Bernie has until very, very recently been anti-immigrant and he has built his white working class street cred by scapegoating foreigners, foreign trade and immigrants, which is similar to you know who.

Now, it is nice that Bernie has recently seen the light, and opposed Trump's insistence on building a wall. However, Bernie should own the fact that he has a long history of stirring up white resentment against foreigners, immigrants and trade. Prior to Trump's election, these proposals were described by the mainstream media as "populism" with Bernie and Trump being the populist candidates. "Populism" almost sounds wholesome. However, under Trump, we see that the appeal of such policies is driven by base racism and the desire to scapegoat and blame those who are most vulnerable. It is ugly in Trump. It is no less ugly in Bernie.

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-immigrants-silly-tribal-and-economically-illiterate-358369

“That’s a Koch brothers proposal.”

Oh, well if the Kochs want something, ipso facto it must be stopped. I assume Sanders must also oppose gay marriage, ending the war on drugs, ending the wars overseas, NSA reform, criminal justice reform, and other nefarious Koch proposals.

“That’s a right-wing proposal.”

I’m surprised he was able to get this line out with a straight face, but it does highlight an inconvenient fact for moderate liberals like Klein: the far left really agrees with the far right about keeping out foreigners.

The right has traditionally feared immigrants using welfare, and the left fears the same thing — conservatives because they want less welfare, and leftists because they want more. The right thinks immigrants will take your taxes, and the left that they’ll take your welfare. (They’re both wrong, for what it’s worth, but it still drives their politics.)

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Reply Newsweek: "Bernie Sanders on Immigrants: Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate" (Original post)
TomCADem Jan 10 OP
DemocratSinceBirth Jan 10 #1
TomCADem Jan 10 #4
DemocratSinceBirth Jan 10 #5
kstewart33 Jan 11 #124
yardwork Jan 10 #27
AlexSFCA Jan 10 #39
yardwork Jan 10 #44
AlexSFCA Jan 11 #57
at140 Jan 11 #101
TexasTowelie Jan 11 #127
ehrnst Jan 10 #2
GWC58 Jan 10 #32
Me. Jan 10 #53
ehrnst Jan 11 #63
NurseJackie Jan 11 #65
ehrnst Jan 11 #67
NurseJackie Jan 11 #69
ehrnst Jan 11 #70
redstatebluegirl Jan 11 #83
NurseJackie Jan 11 #96
Me. Jan 11 #103
TexasTowelie Jan 11 #129
NurseJackie Jan 11 #130
emulatorloo Jan 11 #104
ehrnst Jan 11 #105
mcar Jan 10 #3
NurseJackie Jan 11 #66
mcar Jan 11 #122
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mcar Jan 11 #125
melman Jan 10 #6
TomCADem Jan 10 #9
melman Jan 10 #10
TomCADem Jan 10 #14
melman Jan 10 #18
George II Jan 11 #73
at140 Jan 11 #102
emulatorloo Jan 11 #108
George II Jan 11 #112
melman Jan 11 #118
emulatorloo Jan 11 #119
rzemanfl Jan 10 #21
Hassin Bin Sober Jan 10 #16
TomCADem Jan 10 #19
TomCADem Jan 10 #23
Hassin Bin Sober Jan 10 #33
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melman Jan 10 #46
TomCADem Jan 10 #48
melman Jan 10 #50
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ehrnst Jan 11 #100
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Autumn Jan 10 #12
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ehrnst Jan 11 #111
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Power 2 the People Jan 11 #126
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melman Jan 10 #36
NurseJackie Jan 11 #72
LineLineLineLineReply .
melman Jan 11 #116
DemocratSinceBirth Jan 10 #30
TomCADem Jan 10 #31
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Fix The Stupid Jan 11 #115
TheFarseer Jan 11 #128
JI7 Jan 11 #132
Joe941 Jan 11 #133

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:40 PM

1. Open borders is a right wing canard. No sentient person supports it. It would wreak havoc.

That being said those of us on the left favor a humane immigration system.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:54 PM

4. What is the difference between what Bernie said and what Trump said a day ago?

Here is Trump and Bernie talking about how African Americans and Hispanics Americans are harmed by immigrants. Also, it is notable how both Bernie and Trump both purport to be waiving a flag for African Americans to justify their attacks on immigrants, which just seems to promote divisions within the U.S. Who knew that Trump was actually a progressive, because he does not sound like the right-wing that Bernie describes:

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation

Ezra Klein
It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn't it?

Bernie Sanders
It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you're a white high school graduate, it's 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?

I think from a moral responsibility we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer.


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trump-immigration-speech-full-text-1088710

Tonight, I am speaking to you because there is a growing humanitarian and security crisis at our southern border. Every day customs and border patrol agents encounter thousands of illegal immigrants trying to enter our country. We are out of space to hold them and we have no way to promptly return them back home to their country. America proudly welcomes millions of lawful immigrants who enrich our society and contribute to our nation. But, all Americans are hurt by uncontrolled illegal migration. It strains public resources and drives down jobs and wages. Among those hardest hit are African-Americans and Hispanic Americans. Our southern border is a pipeline for vast quantities of illegal drugs, including meth, heroin, cocaine and fentanyl. Every week 300 of our citizens are killed by heroin alone, 90 percent of which floods across from our southern border. More Americans will die from drugs this year than were killed in the entire Vietnam War.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:57 PM

5. In his heart Bernie is anti-immigration.

But he trims his position because he knows it a disqualifying position in a Democratic primary.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 07:14 PM

124. What is his problem with minorities?

Geez Louise, He's no champion of women, but this is news.

Perhaps it doesn't really matter because I see him polling badly in IA and SC and then it's over. But still.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:05 PM

27. Bernie's use of the term "nation-state" is a red flag to me.

Is Bernie Sanders opposed to the European Union? Was he in favor of Brexit?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:35 PM

39. Bernie most certainly supports brexit

he is a strong opponent of free trade and a huge fan of tarrifs; in fact his trade policiy is remarkably similar to trumps - cancel tpa, nafta, etc.

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Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:45 PM

44. OMG. I didn't realize that. He is closely aligned with Putin, in that case.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #44)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:00 AM

57. I dont think so

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Response to yardwork (Reply #44)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:07 PM

101. Not possible because Russia's main source of income is oil exports

and natural gas exports. The recent crash in energy raw materials price is hurting Putin where
it hurts the most.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:05 PM

127. But Bernie supported the EB-5 program at the Jay Peak ski resort in Vermont.

Apparently, Bernie was able to differentiate between the immigrants earning minimal wages and immigrants that have $500K to contribute for a project in his state.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:44 PM

2. Sanders will be vetted, and vetted thoroughly as long as he floats a 2020 run.

It will be different this time, and I don't know if he or many who support him are prepared for what that involves.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:11 PM

32. Bernie Sanders does

not have my vote. Register as a Democrat, maybe. But probably not.🤔

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:16 PM

53. Chuckles Says He'll be Out Of The Race By August

with the whole sexual harassment/assault being a huge factor

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Response to Me. (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 07:20 AM

63. The hue and cry will go up on Twitter...

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:20 AM - Edit history (1)

blaming everyone and everything but the candidate.




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Response to ehrnst (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:14 AM

65. That will be good. It's unclear to me if he's actually ready for such scrutiny.

It will be different this time, and I don't know if he or many who support him are prepared for what that involves.
That will be good. It's unclear to me if he's actually ready for such scrutiny. I suspect that Bernie and the campaign will agree that it will be much different that the previous time.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:23 AM

67. In a way, it's good that he's nearing the end of his career.

He finally got the cheering college students, which is I imagine has been one of the very high points for him in his career.

He can go out on that note in retirement, instead having to looking back on it for decades like Nader did.

And he can always do those book tours - not as big crowds, but far less taxing.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:39 AM

69. I'm sure his current wife, Jane, will be glad to be out of the spotlight too.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:45 AM

70. She told him she didn't want him to run when he asked her what she thought.

I can imagine why. I think she has a broader view of what the obstacles are.

But I understand that one doesn't ever disagree or challenge Bernie, and she didn't.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:22 AM

83. She also doesn't want any more light on her tenure as President of a College that went bankrupt.

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:42 AM

96. That is a rather sticky and embarrassing situation. So there's that, and her bookkeeping skills..

... that are also called into question and subject to intense scrutiny. She seems weary of it all and not willing to make the effort.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:16 PM

103. No Spotlight, No Cash

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:19 PM

129. Jay Peak.

Bernie never commented on the fraud or scandal.

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Response to TexasTowelie (Reply #129)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:34 PM

130. Interesting.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:19 PM

104. There are lots of questionable votes in his voting record that can't be explained away

Despite questionable or intellectually dishonest attempts to do so.

This time out the press and opposing candidates will ask about those votes.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #104)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:23 PM

105. But that's different...

Because REASONS!

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:46 PM

3. I hadn't seen this before

Thanks Tom. These comments by Sen. Sanders are disturbing.

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Response to mcar (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:18 AM

66. But wait... there's more.

But wait... there's more. I expect that as time progresses and the vetting process continues, there will be more things revealed that were previously unknown. (Or that were known to just a few, but suppressed.)

All I'm trying to say is that IT'S NEW DAWN, IT'S A NEW DAY and I'm feeling good about how things will turn out.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #66)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 06:28 PM

122. All candidates need to be realistically vetted this time

No ignoring, no smearing, no fake "scandals." I want a real look at who we are choosing.

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Response to mcar (Reply #122)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 07:00 PM

123. And spouses in the public eye are fair game too. I have...

And spouses in the public eye are fair game too. I have mixed feelings about a candidate's adult children, but not if they're intimately involved in the candidate's career or campaign.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #123)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:16 PM

125. I agree

If the adult children are involved in the candidates business, a la the Trump spawn, they are fair game for vetting.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:09 PM

6. Daniel Bier


"Daniel Bier is the executive editor of The Skeptical Libertarian.

His work has appeared in Newsweek, the Freeman, the Volokh Conspiracy, the Commentator, Kyiv Post, and elsewhere. His work on guns, crime, and policing has been cited in the Washington Post and the Tampa Bay Times's Politifact.

He writes on issues related to science, civil liberties, and economic freedom."

https://fee.org/people/daniel-bier


Nice source and even nicer selective quoting.

This Bier is guy is a Libertarian shitbag. As anyone that bothers to click-through and read the Newsweek article will see.

But for those that don't bother to do so here's another paragraph from the posted article.

Daniel Bier says:

"That's still not good, so let's ignore the fact he's making stuff up and take his point at face value. You know what would help reduce youth unemployment? Abolishing the minimum wage that prices unskilled young workers out of the labor market Or reforming a corrupt, failing public school system that leaves disadvantaged young people in dropout factories: out of school, out of work and out of luck."
https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-immigrants-silly-tribal-and-economically-illiterate-358369


Nice. Really fucking nice.

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Response to melman (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:30 PM

9. Vox - Bernie Sanders's fear of immigrant labor is ugly -- and wrongheaded

The underlying interview was by Ezra Klein. Also, here is a story analyzing Bernie's responses by Dylan Matthews.

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders

f I could add one amendment to the Constitution, it would be the one Wall Street Journal editorial page editor Robert Bartley once proposed: "There shall be open borders." There is no single policy that the United States could adopt that would do more good for more people. An average Nigerian worker can increase his income almost 15-fold just by moving to the United States, and residents of significantly richer countries like Mexico can more than double their earnings. The humanitarian gains of letting everyone who wants to make that leap do so would be astounding.

So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. "Open borders?" he interjected. "No, that's a Koch brothers proposal." The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. "I think from a moral responsibility, we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty," he conceded, "but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer."

There are two problems with Sanders's view on this, one empirical and one moral. He's wrong about what the effects of an open-border policy would be on American workers, and he's wrong in treating Americans' lives as more valuable and worthy of concern than the lives of foreigners.

he existing economic literature suggests that eliminating all barriers on movement between nations would increase world GDP by 50 to 150 percent. The midpoint estimate is that the world economy would double. That's because people are much more productive in rich countries. Because of better technology, more skilled co-workers, better institutions, and the like, a worker doing the same job will earn vastly more for it in the US than in, say, Haiti. And if everyone were able to take jobs where they'd earn the most, the cumulative effect on the economy would be massive.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:32 PM

10. So why didn't you just quote the original interview

instead of posting a Libertarian's op-ed about the interview?

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Response to melman (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:41 PM

14. Washington Examiner - "Bernie Sanders schools Vox on immigration"

Okay, to be fair, here is a conservative, right wing columnist Byron York totally agreeing and praising Bernie Sanders' anti-immigration policies.

My whole point is that even some people on left can be racist and not all conservatives are racist. Woodrow Wilson was Democratic President, but he was also a virulent racist. Likewise, FDR signed off on placing Japanese Americans in internment camps. I think we need to watch out for how racist scapegoating can even take hold on the left.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bernie-sanders-schools-vox-on-immigration

As a socialist moving up in the Democratic presidential polls, Bernie Sanders raises the expectations of many on the Left. Some assume Sanders believes what they believe and are disappointed if they discover he does not. In a newly-published interview, Vox founder Ezra Klein, an advocate of an open-borders immigration policy, asked a question virtually inviting Sanders to agree with Klein about allowing any and all would-be immigrants to come to the United States. Sanders most emphatically did not go along.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:47 PM

18. Byron York?

wtf? is there nobody you won't quote here? Fucking ridiculous.





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Response to melman (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 09:12 AM

73. You have a problem with a conservative praising Bernie Sanders? Aren't you one of the people...

...here who has been saying that Sanders would attract trump voters (i.e., conservatives) and win if he ran against him?

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Response to George II (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:10 PM

102. I bet Trump fears Sanders because as you said,

Sanders would attract some Trump voters. Trump can not afford to lose any voters because of the razor thin margins in recent elections.

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Response to melman (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:32 PM

108. Do you have a coherent defense of why Senator Sanders helped kill immigration reform in 2007?

This source sounds questionable.

However this is a fact of life: Bernie will be vetted this time, unlike 2016.

Your best strategy as a Sanders advocate in 2020 is to write solid intellectually honest defenses of Senator Sanders’ questionable votes.

Here, I’ll even help you:

Yes, Bernie Sanders voted to kill immigration reform in 2007. But it’s complicated.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/yes-bernie-sanders-voted-to-kill-immigration-reform-in-2007-but-its-complicated/?utm_term=.62e458670451

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:53 PM

112. There will be many of his votes that will be called out in the course of a campaign....

...probably starting even before it really begins:

Voted multiple times against the Brady Bill
Voted to allow guns on Amtrak trains
Voted AGAINST the Magnitzky Act*
Voted AGAINST sanctions for Russia*

*the only Senator to vote against both

And more.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 02:25 PM

118. What?

Did someone say something? Does the person who called me ''right wing bullshit'' for being against homophobia actually think I'd ever engage with them?

Can't imagine how they could think that. But I can say this for sure in case they do: I never ever will.


In the meantime, if they're looking for something to do, they could try to find where I say I'm "a Sanders advocate in 2020"

They'll be looking for a while I'd imagine.

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Response to melman (Reply #118)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 02:39 PM

119. ON EDIT: Yes I did do that, I am ashamed and I apologize

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2019, 03:17 PM - Edit history (2)

ON EDIT: I just found the post, that was terrible and I sincerely apologize for calling you that. I didn’t believe your source, but I shouldn’t have gotten so personal; it was a awful thing to do. What I said was horrible and I deserved the hide.

—————

At any rate, I gave you an excellent link to a good substantive defense of Senator Sanders’ vote against Ted Kennedy’s immigration reform bill.

Those kinds of coherent arguments will be more effective. I don’t think that is some kind of crazy off the wall notion.

The same goes for which ever candidate you and I and our fellow DU’ers choose to support. Like it or not, all of them will have their voting records examined.

Have a nice weekend.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:54 PM

21. Bookmarking. n/t

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Response to melman (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:45 PM

16. It appears duers now subscribe to the Jack Welch school of labor policy.

“Jack Welch, former CEO of General Electric, captured the new reality when he talked of ideally having “every plant you own on a barge”. The economic logic was that factories should float between countries to take advantage of lowest costs, be they due to under-valued exchange rates, low taxes, subsidies, or a surfeit of cheap labor. “

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:50 PM

19. Or, Patrick Buchanan's Opposition to Immigration Apparently

Finally, let me ask you this, what is wrong with an immigrant seeking opportunity? Isn't that the promise of America? You quote Jack Welch as those immigrants are evil. Do you agree with Trump?

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:00 PM

23. Is That the Same As Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh?

Because I have trouble believing that they would share that same view of immigration. Is Jack Welch some racist KKK Grand Wizard or Right Wing Talk Radio Host? I am trying to understand the context of the reference. He was a CEO. So what?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #23)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:15 PM

33. Now you are defending Jack Welch? He's the lowest scum of the low.

He thinks labor, whether it’s here or in Africa, should grovel and compete all the way down to pennies per hour - whatever the market will bear. That’s the whole idea behind his libertarian utopia idea of a factory on a barge - ship cheap unprotected workers in, or ship the jobs out. Makes no difference to him.

Oh and by the way. He supported Trump:

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:32 PM

38. Ah, I get it. You are using a strawman.

I did not understand what was the relevance of your reference to Jack Welch, a CEO, but you introduced him (even though he had not come up) so that you can knock him down. Nice.

Frankly, I am opposed to racism, and just because someone that people do not like is against racism, does not mean that we should all be racist. "Hey, look, Jack Welch is a bad person and is pro-immigration, so build a wall, build a wall." I don't think that line of logic necessarily follows. Do you?

Of course, the question that folks who have defended Bernie are refusing to answer is what is the difference between Bernie's views on immigration and Trump's? Don't they both scapegoat immigrants? Haven't they both tried to exploit differences by suggesting that African Americans are somehow uniquely harmed by immigrants? Is anyone brave enough to defend Bernie/Trump or to explain the differences between what both Bernie and Trump said.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:53 PM

46. You accuse others of employing a straw man

And then have the nerve to post..


"Hey, look, Jack Welch is a bad person and is pro-immigration, so build a wall, build a wall."

...as if anyone is saying anything remotely like that?


wtf

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Response to melman (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:02 PM

48. Sigh. Post No. 16 by Hassin Bin Sober...

said...

“Jack Welch, former CEO of General Electric, captured the new reality when he talked of ideally having “every plant you own on a barge”. The economic logic was that factories should float between countries to take advantage of lowest costs, be they due to under-valued exchange rates, low taxes, subsidies, or a surfeit of cheap labor. “


I was a bit confused because I was not sure why some random CEO was being referenced, then Hassin Bin Sober proceeded to explain that Jack Welch was the devil incarnate, then I got the point of the reference. I did not bring up Jack Welch and, if Jack was not being brought up as a strawman, why reference him in post 16?

I see a lot of laughing emojis, and I apologize, this is all sort of confusing, but I will try my best to discuss the issue. Thank you for your patience in engaging in this dialogue.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:07 PM

50. Confused?

No, I don't think you are confused. Not at all. You know exactly what you are doing.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:10 AM

58. someone's advocating building a wall?

" "Hey, look, Jack Welch is a bad person and is pro-immigration, so build a wall, build a wall." I don't think that line of logic necessarily follows. Do you?"

Holy Strawman, Batman!

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:01 AM

64. +1000.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:02 PM

100. OMG look! Jeff Weaver 'subscribes" to the "FoxNews school of political theory"

Right?















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Response to melman (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:35 PM

40. OP points out an area where libertarians and liberals are aligned.

Libertarians are not conservatives, and on immigration they hold a liberal view, as they do on marriage equality, drug policy, criminal justice, civil liberties, etc. So in this case, I am OK with the source.

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Response to melman (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:38 AM

88. Oh goodness...

do better DU..

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:14 PM

7. A related article the explains Sanders position back the with a little more detail

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:22 PM

8. Maybe I've gone blind Can you highlight the words Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate

and post that section because I can't find where he said that and I read it twice. Because when you say "Bernie Sanders on Immigrants: Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate" you are saying that Bernie said that while speaking on immigrants. He didn't say those words. Smells like bullshit from here.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:32 PM

11. Here you go. Bernie and Trump side by side. What is the difference?

Any defense you give of Bernie can be applied to Trump. For example, here is Trump and Bernie (in their own words) talking about how African Americans and Hispanics Americans are harmed by immigrants. What is notable is how both Bernie and Trump purport to be waiving a flag for African Americans to justify their attacks on immigrants, which just seems to promote divisions within the U.S. Who knew that Trump was actually a progressive, because he does not sound like the right-wing that Bernie describes:

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation

Ezra Klein
It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn't it?

Bernie Sanders
It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you're a white high school graduate, it's 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?

I think from a moral responsibility we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer.


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trump-immigration-speech-full-text-1088710

Tonight, I am speaking to you because there is a growing humanitarian and security crisis at our southern border. Every day customs and border patrol agents encounter thousands of illegal immigrants trying to enter our country. We are out of space to hold them and we have no way to promptly return them back home to their country. America proudly welcomes millions of lawful immigrants who enrich our society and contribute to our nation. But, all Americans are hurt by uncontrolled illegal migration. It strains public resources and drives down jobs and wages. Among those hardest hit are African-Americans and Hispanic Americans. Our southern border is a pipeline for vast quantities of illegal drugs, including meth, heroin, cocaine and fentanyl. Every week 300 of our citizens are killed by heroin alone, 90 percent of which floods across from our southern border. More Americans will die from drugs this year than were killed in the entire Vietnam War.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:36 PM

12. "Bernie Sanders on Immigrants: Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate"

Bernie never said that or used those words while speaking on immigrants. I read both articles 3 fucking times. It's a fucking lie and that tells me all I need to know.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:44 PM

15. Wow. You did not notice the tribalism in what both Trump and Bernie said?

Those are direct quotes from both Bernie and Trump. Are you opposed to Trump's policies? Or, would you be cool with Trump's anti-immigration policies and scapegoating of immigrants if they were promoted by Bernie?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:46 PM

17. I noticed Libertarian bullshit and you pushing RW words that were never said by Bernie to

suit your narrative. Show me where in your RW article Bernie Sanders said on Immigrants that they are Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate? Show me. Don't deflect prove it.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:57 PM

22. In Both Bernie and Trump's Statements...

...they are blaming immigrants for the economic hardships of African Americans. I gave you direct quote from both Bernie and Trump so I am not sure how that is deflecting. That is what they literally said.

It strikes me that there are so many other reasons as to why some members of the African American community might be experiencing economic hardship, like racism, but I think that immigrants falls pretty low down the list.

Finally, let me ask you a question, if you are blaming and scapegoating immigrants, how do you differ from Trump?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:00 PM

24. I'll be waiting till the end of time for you to prove what you and a libertarian hack are trying to

convince people that Bernie has said about immigrants.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:18 PM

35. Okay, here is a video of Bernie Sanders with Lou Dobbs Complaining About Amnesty

I tried giving you direct quotes from both Bernie and Trump, but you still don't see it. Okay how about video? Here is Bernie Sanders on Lou Dobbs' TV show both bashing on amnesty and immigrants. Even when Dobbs uses the term “illegal alien” Bernie just chuckles along and says, “I just read something today… a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards,” and the two share a laugh.



As for Bernie Sanders being on Lou Dobbs, I can't help the fact that Bernie decided to do a sit-down interview with a noted racist.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:25 PM

37. You posted a Libratian RW hacks bullshit lies just to smear Bernie.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:36 PM

41. So far in this thread

the OP has given us the Libertarian guy, Byron York, Lou Dobbs, and has also asked ''what's so bad about Jack Welch?"

It's really something.

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Response to melman (Reply #41)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:52 PM

45. Why Not Cut to the Chase? Do you agree with Trump/Bernie on Immigration

I think it clear that there are racist Republicans, as well as racist folks on the left, who scapegoat immigrants. That is the whole point of this thread. We need to be careful and not assume that progressives are free from sin in terms of scapegoating immigrants. Likewise, I am sure that there are some Republicans, like Ana Navarro, who detest Trump because he scapegoats immigrants and minorities.

However, I can tell you were I stand. I am against racism. I am against how Trump and Bernie scapegoat immigrants. I think America was built by immigrants and that it is a melting pot of cultures where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Our diversity is not a threat to who we are, it makes us who we are.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 03:10 AM

62. Well said! Thank you

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Response to melman (Reply #41)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:15 PM

51. Just amazing.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:36 PM

42. I Can't Help That Bernie Did an Interview With Lou Dobbs

It is not like someone held a gun to Bernie's head and made him sit down and chew the fact with Lou Dobbs. Yet, instead of asking, why are Bernie and Lou Dobbs totally on the same page, your response is, "You posted a video of RW Hack Lou Dobbs!"

Sheesh.


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Response to Autumn (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:15 PM

52. Aren't you more concerned that Sanders is talking to, and agreeing with, Lou Dobbs?

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #52)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:51 PM

56. Good question.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 09:48 AM

74. I don't care that he's on Fox News. That's squat to me, I don't watch those clip and I have Fox

news blocked. Many liberals go on Fox news because they think they can reach the viewers, and we even have stevenlessner a member here who is a Fox news regular analyst . The author of the article in the OP is a libertarian hacks and the
"Bernie Sanders on Immigrants: Silly, Tribal and Economically Illiterate"
are words and descriptions attributed to Bernie about immigrants that are false, real fucking lies. He never used those words or attributed those descriptions to immigrants. I know what people think of Fox news and am aware and share the dislike when those on our side go on it. I'm more concerned that Libertarian RW spin lies and bullshit are acceptable as long as its used to smear an ally.
YMMV

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Response to Autumn (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 09:54 AM

75. But posting any quote from someone that was reported on FOX and Friend or other RW source

is = to agreeing with them and promoting everything they promote.

Right. Because REASONS!

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Response to Autumn (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 09:57 AM

77. So, you refuse to listen to what Sanders said because of where he said it.

That's rather convenient; that means that you can ignore anything that he ever said that you find unpalatable, simply by discrediting the people he was talking to.

This is known as a Guilt by Association Ad Hominem fallacy.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:17 AM

80. I know what Sanders stand on immigrants is. I don't have to listen to an interview on Fox

nor do I have to read a RW hit job to know where he stands on immigration. He has given many talks on immigration .

https://berniesanders.com/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=222648

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Response to Autumn (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:31 AM

84. Except that's not what he said before. But, if you won't listen to his own words, oh well. /nt

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:33 AM

85. Are people not allowed to change?

There are many people in our own party who have held some reprehensible views in the past that have now come around. Do they deserve the same treatment?

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #85)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:37 AM

87. Sure, but you have to listen to what they said, and evaluate their sincerity based on their

prior stated reasoning.

If you're just going to ignore their previous position statements by attacking the source, then you are you're not evaluating if they have actually changed.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:34 AM

86. That's not what he said before? It's a sad person who never changes.

Oh no!!! before, now whatever shall I think

Got to be the best response I've seen

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Response to Autumn (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:41 AM

89. Glad you think it's funny /nt

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Response to Autumn (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:07 AM

92. those words aren't attributed to Sanders; rather it's the (libertarian) author's assessment of him

That's the headline from Newsweek for the article written by libertarian Daniel Bier for the libertarian site "Foundation for Economic Education." It's a bit confusing because of the colon, but the writer isn't saying Sanders called immigrants those things; rather, the writer is calling Sanders those things.

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Response to fishwax (Reply #92)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:14 AM

94. When I got to this point

Oh, well if the Koch brothers want something, ipso facto it must be stopped. I assume Sanders must also oppose gay marriage, ending the war on drugs, ending the wars overseas, NSA reform, criminal justice reform and other nefarious Koch proposals.


I stopped and looked up the author,and looked for those words. Didn't see them. From there it was IMO,crap. Any old port in the storm will do for people who don't like Sanders and Libertarians are assholes

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Response to Autumn (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:39 PM

131. You remind me of my brother.

You choose to listen only to the points that validate your opinions while ignoring the rest.

BTW, Steven Lesser is no longer a member of DU, but I'm certain that you already knew that so it makes a convenient point of attack when the person you accused can't respond.

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Response to TexasTowelie (Reply #131)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 09:30 AM

135. Really? You remind me of someone too. nt

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Response to Autumn (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:25 AM

68. Jeff Weaver has been on FoxNews more than once, and on Tucker Carlson's show

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:00 PM - Edit history (4)

If quoting a RW source is "promoting everything that they do and say," I can't imagine what you think of someone actually going one of them for an interview.. or god forbid, being a regular contributor!











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Response to ehrnst (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 09:57 AM

76. Well whadda ya know!

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:53 AM

99. +++++, thanks for pointing out the obvious similarities. nt

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:40 PM

55. the difference is in where their expressed concerns about working class americans leads policy-wise

Sanders combines support for a path to citizenship and other important protections for the rights and dignity of immigrants in this country with specific opposition to guest worker programs. Guest worker programs have supporters on the left and on the right (many on the right like them because they allow corporations to import cheap labor that is more easily exploited and disposed of), but they also had skeptics and critics on the left (many labor unions, for instance) and on the right (including racists like Steve King).

For those on the right, opposition to guest worker programs is part of a portfolio that includes a desire to crack down on and punish undocumented immigrants and a yearning for whiter, simpler times. For those on the left, opposition to guest worker programs is part of a portfolio that includes concern about wages, worker rights and safety, and American values of basic rights, human dignity, and inclusiveness (which is why, as your own source suggests, Sanders's support for things like a path to citizenship and protection for the rights of immigrants has been unwavering). It is pretty simple to see why skepticism about guest worker programs is a natural fit for both of these perspectives, but that opposition has a very different role and a different texture in each case.

Incidentally, the same is true of support for guest workers. For those on the left who support such programs, it is part of a portfolio that includes general support of immigration and a desire to expand economic opportunity in a manner consistent with liberal values of inclusiveness, etc. For those on the right who support such programs, it is part of a portfolio that includes opposition to worker rights, opposition to organized labor, opposition to any limitations on the rights of corporations or capital, and so on. Again, it's easy to see how support for such programs could fit in the agendas of folks like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, and it's easy to see how support for such programs could fit in the agendas of folks like the Koch brothers, Marco Rubio, and Lindsey Graham. But it's silly to pretend that the support in each of these cases has the same function or the same texture.

Another key difference between Sanders and Trump: trump's administration has actually worked to *expand* the guest worker program, making it easier for farm companies to bring workers in specifically for this purpose even while cutting back on the protections that they have access to. So, if opposition to the guest worker program makes Sanders wrong on immigration, then what does that make the trump administration?

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Response to fishwax (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:34 AM

59. Thank you. That Was Cogent and Responsive. Let Me Respond

I agree that now Bernie Sanders has come over to the Democratic Party side and expresses support for a path to citizenship and protection for the rights of immigrants.

However, in terms of rhetoric, Bernie has blamed immigrants for the economic troubles of the working class, and Bernie has made it a point to bring up African Americans similar to Trump.

My issue with Bernie is not so much his stated policy on paper, because as you note, he seems to have adopted many mainstream Democratic positions on immigration. My problem with Bernie is how he has scapegoated immigrants and even paternalistically described them as pawns of the Koch empire. His rhetoric on the issue is harmful. While it is nice that he now has come back to mainstream Democratic positions on immigration, I do not appreciate the continued dog whistles up until quite recently.

I am a child of immigrants. I am glad they came to the U.S. I have taken advantage of the opportunities afforded to me. I do not think that there is anything wrong with that. I think playing races off of each other (African Americans are hurt by immigrants) or scapegoating immigrants for the troubles of working class Americans is wrong.

For me it is deeply personal in terms of how immigrants or foreigners are painted as scapegoats by U.S. politicians on the left as well as the right. This is not new. Just because some folks say that people like me and my family are Koch empire pawns being exploited by being allowed to immigrate, from our perspective, we got a chance to live the American dream and be apart of it. Likewise, I can see how the Ann Coulters of the world will feel threatened since we do not come from an European country, but my response and my view, perhaps selfishly, is that America was built on the idea that the poor, dispossed, and persecuted can come over and thrive.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 01:22 AM

60. I think he's always been pretty mainstream democratic when it comes to immigration

He was hardly on an island with his concerns about the 2007 bill, and he supported the 2013 reform.

I agree with you that it is important that we safeguard against divisive rhetoric used to attack immigrants, and I agree with you (as would, according to everything I've ever read, Bernie Sanders, who is also proudly the child of an immigrant) that it is important that we protect, defend, and continue our country's traditional identity as a welcoming place for those seeking a better life.

I don't really agree with your characterization of Sanders's remarks as scapegoating, and I strongly disagree with your characterization that they are in any meaningful way similar to the hateful and divisive rhetoric that donald trump has built his career on.

I'll explain why.

As a general framework, the key differences in the quotes you've offered as roughly equivalent are these: first, donald trump is speaking about immigration *as the source and cause* of the problems of the American worker, while Bernie Sanders is rejecting the guest worker program specifically (and, in the original "open borders" question, unregulated immigration) as a *solution* to the problems of the American worker. It's worth noting that the guest worker program, though included as part of immigration reform, doesnt't encourage or allow permanent residency for immigrants; guest workers are allowed here to serve the needs of businesses for cheap labor, and their presence is restricted in various ways. They aren't allowed to stay permanently. They aren't allowed to seek better employment. They are more vulnerable to various employer abuses than permanent residents. And Sanders is saying that expanding this policy isn't good for American workers. So I don't really see that as the same as trump's scapegoating.

A second big difference is in the way that both trump and Sanders, as you note, specifically use the economic interests of African Americans to support their positions. But that similarity hardly makes their positions or their rhetoric similar. For trump, this feigned interest is quite transparently bullshit, since both his rhetoric and his policies are quite clearly racist, ranging from his explicit scapegoating of immigrants, his fearmongering regarding the caravan, his support for racial profiling in immigration enforcement, his ideas about who should be allowed to and who should be forbidden from immigrating, and so on. Sanders, on the other hand, expresses his concern about the disproportionate economic hardships faced by people of color in this country, and that dovetails with immigration proposals that (again, with respect to his plan in the 2016 campaign) seek primarily and explicitly to reject and address the same racist biases in immigration policy that trump seeks to expand and impose. His immigration proposals sought to end race-based enforcement, to expand diversity visas, to expand opportunities for refugees, and so on.

Sanders is opposed to trump on just about every point of immigration policy. (Including, as I've noted elsewhere, the guest worker program, which trump is just fine with as long as we can limit the rights of those workers.) The fact that trump adds some empty BS rhetoric about how immigration hurts african americans to disguise the bigotry of his immigration agenda hardly means that Sanders is also racist for considering the way the guest worker program might affect people of color.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:17 AM

81. Sanders is a child of immigrants too - and he supported his town and the county it is in being

refugee resettlement areas.

I hope that he opts not to run, but this article is an intentional distortion of positions he has taken all his life. If you did not like it when comments out of context has been used against people like HRC, Biden etc, you should have a problem with this.

There are issues - like his extremely ideological rejection of trade treaties - that can be accurately stated and rejected. Here though a look at his actual record and the breath of his comments on immigrants - he is not in the Trump camp.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 04:09 PM

120. It's an attack editorial with an attack headline

 

The bad words describe what the author of this opinion piece thinks of Sanders. This is no surprise from an extremely neoliberal publication that has been attacking Sanders and progressive ideas generally for years.

But by the usual convention of headline writing, one logically reads the bad words as though they are a quote from Sanders talking about immigrants.

The effect of this falsehood is to defame Sanders, make him sound like Steve King. While it is possibly a mistake, since headline writers are often illiterate, it's more likely just part of the attack. Either way it shows you the quality of the publication and the author.

The corporate media are just doing the exact same thing they did throughout 2016. The majority of people do not trust them and the more obviously they do it, the more it may work to Sanders' advantage.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 04:30 PM

121. It's a trashy thing to do and very libertarian .

But to find Democrats using it is surprising.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:39 PM

13. KICK for Sunlight!

Shine the Light!

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:53 PM

20. Why are you posting articles advocating for the abolition of the minimum wage?

“You know what would help reduce youth unemployment? Abolishing the minimum wage that prices unskilled young workers out of the labor market.”

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:04 PM

26. It does sound like a right-wing source.

...

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:46 PM

111. You mean like Jeff Weaver "advocates" watching FoxNews?

I see we have the same tactic of desperate false equivalence. Weaver is still exempt from it, I guess?













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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:02 PM

25. Why post this libertarian jagoff's musings here?

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:07 PM

29. Time - Why Conservatives Praise Bernie Sanders on Immigration

It was a Newsweek article. But it seems like you are deflecting to try to argue that being anti-immigrant is progressive? Also, libertarians are against marijuana regulation. Does that mean we all have to be anti-weed? If a libertarian is anti-racist, then I welcome their support against racism.

http://time.com/4170591/bernie-sanders-immigration-conservatives/

When it comes to immigration reform, Bernie Sanders has checked all the boxes for a Democratic presidential candidate. The Vermont Senator supports a path to citizenship. He would protect the vast majority of undocumented immigrants from deportation. He’d abolish most detention centers and allow the undocumented to buy health insurance through the Affordable Care Act.

Nevertheless, the liberal senator has drawn approval from some unlikely quarters.

Roy Beck, the president of NumbersUSA, a group that seeks to dramatically reduce legal and illegal immigration to the United States, said this week that after studying Sanders’ record and rhetoric, he sees some common ground.

“I think in his gut he believes his obligation as president would be to the workers of America, not to the workers of the world,” Beck said in an interview.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 09:09 PM

126. It doesn't matter if it's a legit source Hassin.It's anti-Bernie and that's all that counts.

?c=2

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:06 PM

28. The age old ideological horseshoe - far right and far left almost coincide.

Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to George II (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:24 PM

36. What's up with that sig quote?

Is it meant to mock a Democratic Rep? Sure looks like it.


When one googles that quote nearly all the results are right wing sites.

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Response to melman (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:58 AM

72. So, quoting a politician's own words is "mocking"? Wow. Who knew?

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 02:09 PM

116. .

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:09 PM

30. Two things can be simultaneously true

Bernue is out of the Democratic party mainatream when ir comes to immigration and. It is always best not to use right wing.sources

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:10 PM

31. Newsweek is a rightwing source?

Who knew?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:16 PM

34. The author is

The arguments are solid but the author is a right winger and thus is giving his defenders an avenue of attack

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:05 PM

49. this article isn't originally from Newsweek. It's from a libertarian site

the foundation for economic education, where, among other things, the author of this article talks about the foolishness of the minimum wage. (This info is at the bottom of the article: "Daniel Bier is the editor of the blog Anything Peaceful on the Foundation for Economic Education website, which is where this article first appeared."

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:39 PM

43. Thank you for this post.

Eye opening.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:59 PM

47. I mean, he was responding to a question that was very literally about open borders

"Okay, has he evolved since 2015 when he, in his own words, described liberal immigration policies as a "Koch Brothers proposal"? This is notable because no one has advocated open borders."

The question he was responding to was explicitly about open borders, so it's bizarre to say that nobody was advocating open borders and a fabrication to claim that these comments (which, again, were specifically and explicitly in response to a question about open borders) equates to criticism of "liberal immigration." If Bernie really is so out of step with mainstream liberal views on immigration, I'm sure you can find something that makes that point without relying on such obfuscation.

It isn't surprising to me that Daniel Bier thinks Sanders's opposition to open borders is naive and misguided. Bier is a libertarian, after all, and also finds things like the minimum wage to be misguided. But it is a bit surprising to see Bier's arguments used as somehow support for a liberal critique of Sanders.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:38 PM

54. Read up on CATO man, Daniel Bier, "The sceptical libertarian"

Newsweek may seem a mainstream media source, but in this case they found a Rightwinger to stick his fingers in Bernies face. Here's Bernies entire response to Ezra Klein's questions:

Klein
It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn’t it?
Sanders
It would make everybody in America poorer—you're doing away with the concept of a nation state.…
What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don’t believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.
You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you’re a white high school graduate, it’s 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African-American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?



https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=hx04XNuwBIyyggejrYXgDQ&q=Daniel+Bier&btnK=Google+Search&oq=Daniel+Bier&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l7j0i10j0l2.14655.20438..31345...0.0..0.188.1557.0j11......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131.vOYBzoKboE0

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 03:08 AM

61. Disturbing, but not surprising. Sanders timing for his "change or heart" about immigration was just

too convenient. It always sounded like insincere posturing from him.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 08:50 AM

71. Just a hit piece on Bernie because...

He is probably going to run and is currently the most popular senator.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:00 AM

78. Weather Vane? NT

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:01 AM

79. Actions mean something - Chittenden County (including Burlington) became a refugee resettlement

area for Vietnamese, Bhutanese, Somali, Tibetan etc refugees in the late 1980s - when Sanders was mayor of Burlington - making him the top elected official in that area. Today, it is not uncommon to see many people of color, often in the dress of the countries they left.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:21 AM

82. Ahem...






lol.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:51 AM

90. No proof Bernie said that

Thread should be deleted.

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Response to Yosemito (Reply #90)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:03 AM

91. the headline is actually describing Bernie Sanders, not purporting to quote him

It's a bit confusing because of the colon, but the original writer was actually using those words to describe Sanders, rather than claiming that Sanders said them.

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Response to fishwax (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:51 AM

98. You are correct. You have excellent reading and comprehension skills.




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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:08 AM

93. Daniel Bier?

you’re kidding?

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Response to G_j (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:34 AM

95. Bier is the executive editor of "The Skeptical Libertarian"

He's like a young Rand Paul.

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Response to Yosemito (Reply #95)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:51 AM

97. indeed nt

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:24 PM

106. Any and every opportunity to smear Bernie must be embraced.

Got it.

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Response to mac56 (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:29 PM

107. See also: HRC and Nancy Pelosi. (nt)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 01:09 PM

113. yeah, it's pretty ridiculous in either case

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Response to mac56 (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:41 PM

110. Fact of life: Senator Sanders will be vetting this time out. Best to prepare a coherent defense

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #110)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 01:38 PM

114. best prepare better smears than this shitshow of a piece. I mean, props where its due though...that


headline is masterfully deceitful. nt

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Response to JCanete (Reply #114)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 02:20 PM

117. You'll note in my post that I said that source sounds questionable

While this article may be a shitshow, that doesn’t mean Sanders voting record won’t be throughly vetted in 2020 should he run, both by the press and opposing candidates.

Like it or not, his immigration votes and other votes will come up during a primary.

So it makes sense to start developing concrete coherent defenses now of Bernie’s voting record in order to be a good credible/convincing advocate for Bernie 2020.

You’ll also find that the WAPO article I posted does provide a substantive defense of Senator Sander’s vote against Ted Kennedy’s immigration reform bill.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #117)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:11 AM

134. Fair enough, thanks. nt

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 12:37 PM

109. visa programs that give companies the power are not legal immigration policies. Thats fucking crap.

That doesn't give them some sort of amnesty status where they would have actual rights...it literally makes them a worker subclass. And that is the kind of shit corporations love and lobby for.

Sanders target has never been immigrants. It has always been the corporations attempting to exploit them. Be less disingenuous.

Also, what a shitty title....stating sanders and then following it with that tripe makes it look like he said those things about immigrants. This is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel of pathetic.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #109)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 02:08 PM

115. He has 'them' scared to death.


So blatantly obvious.

Honestly, to the shitbag corps who are paying these propaganda assholes - you need to find better people. These guys are transparent as water.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:11 PM

128. Once upon a time

Liberals were against too much immigration because it would drive wages lower, especially for unskilled poor workers. It would allow business owners to pit laborers against each other in a cutthroat competition for jobs. Or am I misinformed here?

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Response to TheFarseer (Reply #128)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:44 PM

132. they weren't liberals . they might have been democrats but not liberals

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Response to JI7 (Reply #132)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 11:46 PM

133. This. We have progressed.

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