I'm sick of the conservatism which has infiltrated the Dem party

[pinebox]

and it's especially prevalent among Hillary supporters. I'm sick and tired of it while myself and millions more sit here and swim in over $100k of student loan debt, we're brushed aside with "pipe dreams" and told how Bernie and in some cases O'Malley would never be able to get anything done.

Honestly, I have NEVER been a Democrat. I align with Greens on most issues and I am a registered Indy. Am I liberal? You had better damn believe I am! The Dem party as a whole though left me and I never thought of joining them and after 89 Dems voted to gut SNAP (ironically DWS is one of the Dems who voted for this) http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/01/1407839/-Bernie-s-legislative-record it farther alienated me from ever joining. No, that doesn't represent me at ALL and I wondered what ever happened to Dems who used to fight for us, the little guy. The people who don't have much and whose voices are seldom heard.

Then Bernie came along. I have watched Bernie for years and outside of Bernie, if Warren didn't run, my candidate was going to be Jill Stein. I know, she has no hope in being elected which IMHO is shameful but Bernie gave me a shot. A real shot at something which I deeply believe in. So I switched my affiliation to Dem in order to caucus with him.

I'm concerned, I really am and you know what, I am scared shitless. I won't lie. See, Bernie for me represents a lot of things, hope, a lot of hope because myself and millions more have none. We don't. We've lost any and all faith in the political system as as much as I know Hillary supporters are going to shout me down for saying this, for us she is part of the problem. She represents a health care system where millions could potentially die in red states, she doesn't support a living wage federally which enables people to suffer and her college plan does little to nothing to really help people.

My kiddo lives in Germany. Do you know what he pays for college? Basically zero. He'll never ever know what student loan debt is while the reality is I will never own a house and millions more won't either. We won't. Think of the economic impact of that for a second. Millennials are literally the first generation to make less than their parents & you know what, it royally sucks.

Hillary supporters don't get us but the truth is, we're disenfranchised and we've lost faith in many Dems who call themselves "liberal" but really aren't. Is it any wonder? Look at this below. These are self described Dems? When do Dems say things like this? Since when do Dems sound like Rand Paul and Paul Ryan with "entitlements are over" and "take responsibility" when it comes to minimum wage?














What have I gotten myself into switching my Indy affiliation to Democrat? Honestly, I am now considering switching it back as soon as the election is over because with this sort of crap happening, I see no reason to stick around. That being said, I also know why I switched it and that is solely because of Bernie. ONLY Bernie. Because for me, he's my only hope right now and outside of him I don't have much. When we have Dems who are acting more like Republicans and can't even fight for us on minimum wage issue while Walmart has millions of employees who rely on food stamps, we have a problem America.

You give me ONE single reason why I should vote for Hillary. Honestly, give me one. And don't bring up SCOTUS either when I have NO faith in her appointing judges who will overturn Citizens United. In fact, I have zero faith in her period when she has changed positions on virtually every single issue. Name one she hasn't. All the big issues, where she has stood steadfast on? Other than taking money from Wall Street, give me something!

I am wondering what has happened to Dems. Where are the fighters outside of Warren and now Bernie? Why do we have so many supporters making very conservative comments and not fighting for FDR's second, which in my opinion isn't only a Dem and liberal ideal but a progressive one as well. Why are we capitulating to Republicans? What in the blue hell has happened? We're now throwing universal health care under the bus? We're fighting for a non living wage and we're gutting program's like SNAP? Only 9 senate dems voted against gutting SNAP. 9!!!!!! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/4/1274997/-Only-9-Senate-Democrats-Voted-Against-the-SNAP-Cutting-Farm-Bill Look at this! http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/01/republicans-won-food-stamps-farm-bill Seriously! What the hell is going on?

Look, I'm not going to beat around the bush (though it sure seems like some are relatively close to W's "compassionate conservatism" in nature) but why aren't we fighting? I know Bernie supporters are but how about the rest of you? Seriously. Why are you supporting such conservative policies?

I'm going to give you something to think about and I want you all to really THINK about this.

I've heard this used in the last week, from Hillary supporters on the web. (I know not all of her supporters are like this too)

*Socialism!
*He's too old
*Pipe dreams
*He isn't a "real" Democrat!
*By voting for Bernie you'll elect President Trump!
*College shouldn't be free
*Take personal responsibility!
*Minimum wage is for a starting pay job
*Single payer will hurt people
*Bernie wants to raise taxes!
*Republicans will never vote for Bernie!
*He can't get anything done!
*He has done nothing will serving!
On and on.....lots more too...

And I will recant with this and here is what you all to think about and I mean THINK.

--Peace out.

[VulgarPoet]

1. Goddess willing, this is the primary season that sees the end of the two party system.

Hopefully enough anti-establishment dems walk away from the table when the paladin inevitably manages to steal the primary.

[restorefreedom]

3. agree about the two party system, but i think paladin his jumped the shark

there are so many eyes on this, a theft is going to be impossible, esp with the numbers bernie will get

[VulgarPoet]

6. They said the same thing with Gore. That took what, one district whose eyes weren't on the birdie?

[restorefreedom]

7. it will be a nail biter, but i do think this cycle is different

waaaaay more pissed off people. and social media

[jtuck004]

67. "waaaaay more pissed off people" < Do you think they will be demanding that we re-seat the incumbent

party who has held that office for the last 8 years?

[restorefreedom]

82. maybe, maybe not

but bernie is talking about things NOT being business as usual, so anything is possible.

i think it will be bernie v trump with bernie the victor.

but it could go the other way. unfortunately, if hillary is the nom, going the other way is almost a sure thing.

[jtuck004]

98. Yes. President Sanders and Evilhair are running campaigns of the spirit,

Mrs. Clinton's is of the head. And not completely, just in overall tone. None of those are bad, and could all be winners on any given Tuesday.

But you don't want to run a campaign of the head against the spirit if you can help it, and that could result in exactly what you are saying.

On the other hand you have Trump poking fun at all the things which are popular to blame, and people are eating that up, and President Sanders who is (wrongly) now starting to be talked about in terms of raising taxes for health care, on a middle class that is losing it's income and ability to even house itself. Dumb, I think. We won't need to raise taxes unless we are going to continue paying all the criminal bank$ter/jihadists and takers of corporate welfare and the defense industry. And if that's the plan, what the hell are we voting for?

It may be that if there is a President Sanders it will be in spite of himself.

I know people want relief. But when you try to make it better without educating them, they will grab on to the first thing that looks like it won't cost them anything.

Just ask Jimmy Carter.

[restorefreedom]

114. excellent analysis. one bright spot for me

a lot of people seem to be hungry for knowledge. many are not buying the rw/clintonesque tripe that bernie is "raising taxes". they know it also means getting rid of the greedy middle man insurance companies and saving a buttload of money. they know how much money war is costing us. even trump has talked about making a deal with medicare to lower drug prices that had the pharms and biotechs crapping themselves.

the veil of patronizing politics came flying off and we walked through a one way door imo. we hsve bernie, and unbelivably, trump, to thank for that.

in any case, there is no going back. people have seen the top of the mountain, to paraphrase the great mlk jr. and they want to get there dammit.

[wilt the stilt]

202. Our system is based on the 2 party system.

If you want more than two parties you have to o to a parliamentary system.

[restorefreedom]

219. that's not necessarily a bad thing imo. four parties might be good

two can work but they have to be non corrupt. our two are owned by basically the same people. not good.

[wilt the stilt]

230. I don't think you understand how our system is structured

Our system is a 2 party system. It really can't have 4.

[restorefreedom]

235. it can if we et rid of ridiculous e.c.

one person, one vote. run offs till there is a winner

[OrwellwasRight]

192. Can you explain the reference to

"any of the twelve peers of Charlemagne's court, of whom the count palatine was the chief"? I'm lost.

[VulgarPoet]

197. Apologies; was basically using a synonym of "crusader".

I'm a tabletop junkie, some of the parlance tends to slip into my everyday.

[OrwellwasRight]

201. Thanks, I sort of get it . . .but not really.

Maybe I hit my head today. I'm assuming you are referring to Hillary, but what makes her comparable to a crusader? Are you saying her cause is money instead of religion? I know this sounds like I am trying to be an asshole, but I'm really not. I'm sitting here (well lounging here, really) laughing at myself for being so dense as to not get your metaphor...

[VulgarPoet]

205. I suppose her cause being money would put her closer to anti-paladin

than paladin if we're going by at least Pathfinder stuff, I don't remember if 3.5 had the Anti-Paladin class :/ but more or less her zeal for boning the lower class and the middle east, preferably at the same time is what I point to when I call her a crusader. Inb4 alerts.

[OrwellwasRight]

207. Got it.

Thanks.

[VulgarPoet]

208. No biggie :)

[sabrina 1]

248. That happened before this Primary season. Registered Independents are the largest voting bloc

in the country right now and have been for several years. Dems and Repubs are losing huge numbers of their base.

Bernie is bringing people back to the Dem Party so they can vote for HIM and his POLICIES but if he doesn't win, they will most likely not remain in the party where their voices will be ignores as they have been for decades now.

[restorefreedom]

2. great summary of the current state of affairs and what this country needs

thanks for all the work you put into this, pinebox

namaste

[mmonk]

4. Righteous.

[CharlotteVale]

5. K&R x a zillion

[DanTex]

8. If you can't tell the difference between Hillary and the GOP, you are part of the problem.

I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about the state of affairs in the country, but then refuse to vote for Dems because they aren't pure enough. The problems are caused by the GOP. If you want to be part of the solution, vote for Dems.

[Bjornsdotter]

12. Not all problems are caused by the GOP

I seem to recall quite a few Democrats who voted for the war in Iraq which pried open a Pandora's box. I also seem to recall many people, Hans Blix for one, saying that Iraq had no WMD.

Sometimes it is hard to tell the Democrats from the Republicans.

[DanTex]

13. You're right. I twisted my knee a couple weeks ago, that wasn't the GOP's fault.

The Iraq War was, of course. With an assist from Nader -- it wouldn't have happened if Gore had won.

[Bjornsdotter]

20. If, if, if.......

Yes, of course....it was all Nader's fault.

Some people managed to see through the bullshit regarding Iraq and some didn't.

[DanTex]

27. It was actually Bush's fault. Along with the tax cuts he passed, and everything else he did.

Nader only helped him get elected. But blaming the Dems is truly bizarre.

[TIME TO PANIC]

75. Bush was selected not elected. n/t

[litlbilly]

117. In fact Gore actually won fla by all accounts

[TIME TO PANIC]

120. Yep, can't blame Nader.

Blame Jeb and Kathrine Harris.

[frylock]

134. And every last one of the elected dems that didn't have the grapes to fight.

[TIME TO PANIC]

146. Yep, they just rolled over. n/t

[Bjornsdotter]

153. Exactly!

...they just let it happen.

[Bjornsdotter]

154. Yes everyone is accountable for their actions

...including Democrats. No one gets a pass for a crappy vote. If an elected official can't recognize bullshit the first time around how I can be sure they will recognize it subsequent times.

It is naïf and disingenuous to say that the GOP is responsible for all of our problems. There are many elected officials who need to share the blame.

[DanTex]

156. OK, "all" is pushing it. How about "almost all". At the end of the day, any Dem is much better

than the GOP. Especially today's GOP. All the Dem candidates are thousands of times better than any of the GOP candidates. There's simply no denying that.

[Bjornsdotter]

165. I don't know....

....I'm sorta partial to the guy with the boot on his head.

Yes, I can agree to your previous post.

[kenfrequed]

22. yup...

And it it weren't for Nader and your twisted kee the conservative democrats NEVER would have voted for a war in Iraq.

Making this about Nader is kind of garbage at this point. Yes Gore lost. But Democrats still got to vote. Gore losing did not make it so that any Democrat had to vote with the Republi-fascists.

[OrwellwasRight]

68. Same old "blame Nader" nonsense/

If Gore would have won his own home state, something even Walter Mondale did, Nader's votes would not have mattered.

If idiots have not voted for Buchanan instead of Gore on the butterfly ballot, Nader's votes wouldn't have mattered.

If, if, if. Instead of placing the blame outward, why don't you just admit gore ran a shitty campaign and made a shitty argument at the Supreme Court by not arguing for a full state recount and let it go.

[DanTex]

71. I'm blaming Bush. Nader helped getting him elected, but the war is Bush's fault.

The strange thing is people who want to use the Iraq War, of all things, to make the case that the Dems are just as bad as the GOP.

Whaaaaaa?

[OrwellwasRight]

80. Because so many Dems voted FOR it.

Last edited Wed Jan 27, 2016, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Because it was "pragmatic." Rather than doing what was right.

Whaaaaaaa?

[DanTex]

84. Yes, but obviously the blame lies with Bush. There wasn't any stopping the war once he got elected.

I agree, Dems shouldn't have voted for it, but obviously Bush is the guilty party here. Pretending otherwise is silly, and lets Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld off the hook for the horrible things they did.

[OrwellwasRight]

88. That's the problem right there.

"There wasn't any stopping it."

That is defeatist and a capitulation. And wrong.

Guess what? We stopped Jim Crow and the Vietnam War and slavery and the legal subjugation of women and whole lot more. Not because of the "realists" who said, "there is no stopping it," but because of the "fighters" who said "oh yes we can."

Even Einstein said if you don't dream big you'll never know just how far you can get. No one ever went to the moon who said, we'll never make it, let's just aim for a quarter of the way.

[DanTex]

95. But it's the truth. The only way to stop it was to prevent Bush from getting

elected in the first place. Which gets me back to my original point: Dems, even flawed ones, are far better than the GOP, and people who refuse to accept that are part of the problem.

It took decades to stop Jim Crow, and the Vietnam war cost far more lives than the Iraq War did before it was stopped. Incidentally, that war was started by the very Democrats that Bernie supporters wish the party would go back to. That's a little strange, don't you think?

[OrwellwasRight]

102. Right. Fighting is hard.

You don't just say "we can't win this vote so I guess I'll vote with the majority." You fight till you can't fight any more. That means a hell of a lot longer than giving up on one vote.

Plus, I keep wondering when you will realize that 9/11 didn't happen till AFTER Bush was elected. 9/11 was used as the excuse to get into the Iraqi War. It was not an issue in the 2000 campaign, and it was not a "foregone conclusion" when Bush was elected.

[DanTex]

106. I agree with most of that.

But none of it contracts my initial point, which is that the GOP is far worse than even flawed Dems, and people who ignore that fact are part of the problem.

As for 9-11, you're right, it's possible that without 9-11 he wouldn't have been able to drum up support for the war, but as you know, the idea of invading Iraq was there before 9-11. The point still stands, no Bush, no Iraq War.

[frylock]

137. It's hard work. Even Hillary will tell you that..

[OrwellwasRight]

194. WTF?

Was this from the 2004 election?

He used to drive me crazy. Now he cracks me up. Tragedy + time = comedy as they say.

[frylock]

135. 200,000+ registered Democrats in FL voted for Bush..

you people never talk about them. Why is that, Dan? Are they not culpable as well, Dan? Surely, you're not so partisan as to allow them off the hook, are you Dan?

[DanTex]

139. They are culpable as well. So are Republicans who voted for Bush. There's blame to go around.

[frylock]

143. Yet they're never brought up until you are reminded of them..

why is that, Dan?

[DanTex]

148. Because it's obvious -- people who vote GOP share responsibility for what the GOP does.

[OrwellwasRight]

186. You changed your avatar!

I almost didn't recognize you!

[frylock]

187. Yeah, I've decided to embrace the defeatism.

[OrwellwasRight]

189. LOL!

I gave up on O'Malley and decided to send Bernie some money. In honor of that, I changed my avatar back to Vonnegut. I tried to make a Bowie one, but I couldn't get any photos down to 10 kb after about an hour of trying so I gave up.

[frylock]

190. I like O'Malley. He was my first choice prior to Bernie's entry.

Send me the Bowie pic, and I'll optimize it for you.

[OrwellwasRight]

191. Thanks! You rock!

[dreamnightwind]

210. Thanks, exactly the right place to put the blame

Never ceases to amaze me how the corporate-friendly Democrats ignore this, while rabidly pointing their fingers at Nader. Nader was a small part of the equation, but a larger part and much more inexcusable part was the number of Florida Democrats who voted for Bush. That was the right-wing of our party, not the left, and that's precisely where the blame belongs.

[Chakab]

86. I agree with your post except the part about the butterfly ballot. Given its design, it's

understandable how the voters, especially older ones, could have made that mistake.

[OrwellwasRight]

94. My point exactly.

A) Gore's county Democratic Party Committee people people approved the ballot beforehand, but only complained later. That's not Nader's fault.
B) Many senior citizens stepped forward later and said they didn't mean to vote for Buchanan, they meant to vote for Gore, which made sense given the demographics of that county and was probably true. Had all those Buchanan votes actually gone to Gore as they should have, it would not have mattered how many votes Nader got: Gore would have won the state. Again, the failure of the confusing ballot was not Nader's fault.

So Gore's "defeat" in Florida or in the electoral college was not Nader's fault. Gore needs to take responsibility for mistakes of his campaign.

[Chakab]

107. Okay. I misunderstood you. The failure to object to the ballot design was definitely on Gore's

campaign staff in Florida.

[JimDandy]

142. Yes. There had been complaints about butterfly ballots

in other elections before Gore's, so it was a known problem. Big, huge mistake by Gore to not have done something about it.

[still_one]

169. Yeah, Gore ran a terrible campaign, but as far as I am concerned screw Nader. Let him go and enjoy

millions from his Magellan mutual funds, and other investments

He is an arrogant ass.

[jeff47]

119. So how'd Nader force Bill Clinton to gut welfare?

And what insidious plan did he hatch to force Hillary Clinton to praise it so much in "It takes a village"?

I'm sure those actions as well as other, similar actions had absolutely nothing to do with Nader getting any votes in 2000....

[DanTex]

121. Did I say that?

[jeff47]

122. I edited as you were replying. (nt)

[DanTex]

123. I agree with you. Nader had nothing to do with that, and those contributed to his

vote-getting in 2000. And yet, Dems are much, much better than Republicans, even flawed Dems.

[jeff47]

127. The only way to fix flawed Dems is for them to lose.

Like "I won't admit I voted for Obama" Grimes.

The party leadership keeps pushing the party further and further conservative, producing worse and worse election results. And the party leadership is entrenched well enough that they can not be directly challenged. For example, the county party took away a seat in their leadership when the "wrong" kind of Democrat was likely to win.

We're left with one way to break this system: Its inevitable failure at the ballot box. Desperately applying band-aids like "But Republicans are worse!!!!" just slightly slows the inevitable.

The party has to return to what made it a major party. Whether or not the Republicans are worse. Otherwise, the Right will do horrible things in the chaos caused by our party's collapse.

[DanTex]

130. So make them lose in the primaries. That's what you're trying to do right now.

Letting the GOP win elections out of some kind of spite right is just dumb.

[jeff47]

132. And when the leadership fucks with the primary?

Like Lincoln in AR? Or lining up behind Lieberman after Lamont beat him in the primary?

The party does this kind of crap in the belief that "Who else you gonna vote for?" works. The leadership needs to be dissuaded of this erroneous belief.

[DanTex]

138. You can't blame leadership when your candidate doesn't win.

If your candidate doesn't win the primary, you vote for the Dem in the general.

Your position amounts to being to condemn millions of people to suffering under the GOP because you want to stick it to the DNC. I don't find that defensible, either morally or practically.

Sanders has a chance now. Nobody can argue otherwise. If enough people vote for him, he'll be the nominee. In which case I will be 100% behind him. And if Hillary wins, I'll be 100% behind her. We can't have a president Trump.

[jeff47]

140. You can when the leadership interferes in the primary

or endorses, campaigns for, and financially supports the candidate who lost the primary.

Your position amounts to being to condemn millions of people to suffering under the GOP because you want to stick it to the DNC. I don't find that defensible, either morally or practically.

And the 2014 and 2010 (and 2004 and 2000) demonstrate that those people will be suffering under the GOP with your strategy anyway.

My state is now run by Republicans because the Democratic leadership was utterly terrified of running as Democrats. So they chose candidates that distanced themselves from Obama and any Democratic policy. The leadership actively fought any efforts by more liberal candidates to enter any primaries against the selected candidates.

The result was abysmal turnout, and the same Republican control you claim to fear.

How about we do stop doing the same idiotic strategy that keeps losing over and over and over again?

[DanTex]

147. A few isolated incidents. Overall, if there were really an appetite for more Bernie Sanderses

across the country, then more Bernie Sanderses would be winning primaries. But they aren't.

Right now, we have a two term Dem president, who despite constant GOP obstruction, has become one of the most successful progressive presidents since WW2. Possibly the most. If the GOP wins the presidency, and holds on to congress all of that is at risk. And worse.

On the other side of the scale, we have the theory that by losing, the Dems will be forced to nominate more people like Bernie, which according to you will save the party. There's no evidence for either of the two steps in that plan. The one thing we know for sure is that in the interim, while we're waiting for the transformation of the Dems, a lot of horrible things are going to happen.

No thanks.

[cui bono]

179. Gotta love how you don't want Hillary to be compared to the GOP but

you want to blame 2000 on Nader and voters.

Time for a reality check.

.

[synergie]

37. I also seem to remember that the vote for the Iraq war authorization was based upon

the reports of the intelligence community, which we found out later were fabricated. So, sure you ignored or were not given the same information as everyone else, and you voted a certain way, but was that based on judgement or not getting the whole story that was given at the time.

Obama too touted this, but as a Illinois State senator, he wasn't privy to what the higher security clearance committee members were.

Also, Bernie supports his terrible Gun record (as decided by the Brady Campaign and not the NRA), based on his constituency, so why is he allowed to do the will of his voters, but it's somehow evil for Hillary to decide based on what the intelligence community told her, and her constituency which was the target of the worst terrorist attack in American history?

You recall convenient things, and ignore the reality of what actually happened here, sometimes it is rather difficult to tell the Dems from the Repubs, since those pretending to be Dems engage in the same aversion to facts, tendency to attack and selective amnesia common to the Repubs who forgot the entire Bush admin and the things they were caught doing.

[Bjornsdotter]

163. Numerous International

...officials came out against the Iraq war stating the there were no WMD. Also there were people here who also came out and said that we should not rush into war and that they felt that there were no WMD according to their findings and knowledge of the situation.

However, America went full steam ahead. The officials who said there were no WMD were correct, there was no legitimate basis for war, and those who voted in favor of military action need to own it. If an official can't recognize bad intelligence or an ulterior motive the first time, why should I trust them a second or third time.

A crappy vote is a crappy vote....

[synergie]

184. High security intelligence briefings by our own intelligence agencies

kinda take priority over international press conferences, and Congress was manipulated into authorizing the Administration to declare war.

Are you seriously suggesting that online message boards should take priority to that?

It's really dishonest to ignore the actual facts that were happening there and the context. Yes the Administration lied, did anyone know that til later?

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand the level of dishonesty of the Bushies, and Bernie's reasons for voting against it had nothing to do with questioning the intelligence, or the WMDs or believing anyone or disbelieving them, he didn't recognize the bad intelligence either, or ulterior motives, so why trust a guy who didn't recognize them either?

Your argument fails on the facts and Bernie doesn't meet your standards either, no one does.

[Bjornsdotter]

185. Sorry, I should have phrased that better...

"Also there were people here who also came out and said that we should not rush into war and that they felt that there were no WMD according to their findings and knowledge of the situation. "

I didn't mean the message board....I meant in the United States. I can see where that wasn't clear.

However, I stand by my comment that international intelligence stated opposite of the American intelligence....and they were right.

[CorporatistNation]

229. CORRECT! THAT IS Da Problem!

Corporatist democrats (Sm d for emphasis!) Who are not really Democrats at all. This post makes ALL the sense in the world! Bernie IS our ONLY hope as Hillary is... truthfully and sadly... ABSOLUTELY AS DESCRIBED HERE! K and R!

[VulgarPoet]

15. Prior to the Iraq war, I could. Prior to the establishment's chosen paladin opening Pandora's box

I could. Now? They might as well be the same party. I watched my mother-- the only person in my family who identifies with the left-- vote straight dem ticket on state and federal elections from when I started paying attention to politics. Admittedly, she said she voted for Bill Clinton, but no clue if there's a way to really validate that for me. Look where we are now. Change is necessary-- and it's not coming with Hillary. Try and convince me otherwise. I'm not selling my conscience to the highest bidder, no matter how much the establishment would like me to.

[DanTex]

16. That's strange. Bush takes us into Iraq, and it's the Dems fault? And after that you stopped

paying attention for 15 years? You missed the social security privatization, opposition to Obamacare, calls for tax cuts for the rich, deporting 12 million people, banning Muslims from entering the country, etc?

[VulgarPoet]

17. Your chosen hero helped. nt.

[DanTex]

18. Lionel Messi helped with the war in Iraq? Really?

[VulgarPoet]

21. Absolutely adorable.

Welcome to my ignore list. Also, Messi?? Come on, man, the guy's decent but he's got an ego bigger than Trump's.

[DanTex]

24. You're thinking of Ronaldo.

"Decent", huh...

[Aquavit]

96. Eww, Messi?

He's not even the best striker on his own team anymore.

[DanTex]

97. You have a point, right now Suarez is arguably better (or were you thinking Neymar).

On the other hand, Messi is playing a little farther back now. And he's had dry spells before, and he was injured for a stretch. Don't count him out yet. He's at the top of the 2016 Ballon D'or Odds.

And this was just last summer:

[Aquavit]

99. I was thinking Suarez...

Mind you, they both suck compared to Bob and Tom over in Munich!

[Kingofalldems]

23. I guess he missed that. Everything is the fault of Democrat Hillary Clinton.

I think there is something else going on here.

[Autumn]

38. The problem is Dems working with the GOP and parroting THEIR talking points.

Voting for those Dems won't do jack shit about that problem. If the Democratic party wants to be the solution they should run and act like Democrats.

[TheBlackAdder]

42. One resembles Neville Chamberlain, the other Nazi Germany! nt

[Blue_Tires]

128. +1

[uponit7771]

9. I'm more sick of people who don't want to work for a more progressive congress

[pinebox]

10. After what the DNC has done

can you blame them? I don't. People are so disenfranchised with both parties it's nuts. You know where they aren't? Seattle who elected a true Socialist. When the people want change and are given the opportunity to change the system, they often do. That's a warning to Dems if Hillary is the nominee because Trump is doing that, some don't want to admit that but he is changing the RW, for the worse IMHO but he is, drastically.

[uponit7771]

14. Yes I can, letting perfect be the enemy of good or adequate isn't wise at all... its petulant

[pinebox]

26. We've tried the other ways

and it has allowed people to swim in debt & failed.
Why settle for mediocrity when you can have it all? FIGHT!!!!!!

[OrwellwasRight]

79. It is also petulant

Last edited Wed Jan 27, 2016, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

to not really engage in debates about what's constructive and what's destructive and just to say everything Hillary has ever done is "good" just because it is Hillary.

People who use the phrase "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," tend to be engaging in intellectual laziness. I never see or hear them try to document that anyone they are accusing of holding out for "perfect" is actually doing so, and I never hear or see them explain why their chosen R-lite idea is "good." We are just supposed to take their assertions at face value. No thank you. Blacks during the Civil Rights Movement were also told what was realistic and what they should settle for. I'm sure glad they didn't. Same with women seeking the right to vote.

Guess what? NAFTA, the Bush tax cuts and with War in Iraq were destructive. We don't need more corporate Dems. They don't help. They obstruct real change.

What do we want? Gradual Change!
When do we want it? In due time!

Said no one. Ever.

[Fuddnik]

225. I can't believe this shit. I was juror #3

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

More of the both parties are the same crap during election season. And pushing for the election of Socialists as a threat should Hillary be the nominee seems to go against everything this website stands for. Especially from a poster who pushes right wing propaganda here daily. Completely inappropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jan 27, 2016, 11:50 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seriously? This is alerted?
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this past. Whether the member who sent the alert likes it or not, it has the ring of truth. Truth is something I see none of in the alert itself. DU doesn't make a distinction about the ideology of Democrats we support. As for pinebox pushing RW propaganda here daily, I think I missed those posts. Why does Camp Weathervane insist that any post that crosses Hillary Clinton or suggest she really wouldn't be a good president is "RW"?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You've gotta be kidding me. Pushing for the election of "socialists"? Grow up. McCarthyism is so 1950's. And he was an asshole too.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: So mentioning that a 'socialist' got elected somewhere is now alert-worthy on DU? That's ridiculous.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The DNC "has done" is only pushed by sanders supporters. Quit threatening Hillary Supporters. We're not impressed. HIDE.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[pinebox]

236. lol The socialists!

It's hilarious I actually cited that talking point in my OP lmfao!

[synergie]

11. The posts on DU, tell a differnt story about who is responsible for the CONservatism

that has taken over. Blame Hillary supporters all you want, and I've noticed that pretty much anyone who isn't slavishly devoted to Bernie is supposedly a Hillary supporter, but only one group is posting things that come directly from Karl Rove, Limbaugh and Alex Jones, in the most abusive manner possible, and engaging in a swarm like behavior where anyone who disagrees is punished, attacked and targeted.

If the conservatism bothers you, address those that are engaging in CON behavior, including the actual CONS themselves both here and on Kos. It's not "Hillary supporters" as a whole who are doing this.

[pinebox]

19. You miss my point

and what I said with this--

&quot I know not all of her supporters are like this too)"

To blame this on only cons and just them is irrational at best. It happens all over the place, do you want proof? Let's take a look at what the former NH chair said about Bernie shall we?



And yet it wasn't anything conservative when 89 Dems voted to gut SNAP. Was it? Was it anything conservative when DWS helped her Republican buddies get elected? On and on it goes. So you can scream all you want but I backed everything up and I'm sorry BUT Hillary wavers on just about every issue. Name something. Please by all means. Do so. Honest question give me 3 things she hasn't. I'd love to know because if she hasn't I am unaware of it.

[synergie]

25. Who, other than you is screaming here? I'm sorry, but it's the supporters I referred to

who are screeching their talking points and their abusive attacks. I named the toxicity and the poisonous rantings that have taken over DU and are literally disgusting people away from this site.

Honest question, why do you ignore what I actually said to try to pick a fight about something else entirely? I'd love to know why you refuse to acknowledge where the nastiness on DU and on Kos is actually coming from. Here is a hint, it's not Hillary or her supporters as the threads rather clearly prove.

Why do you direct none of you complaints to the source of the right wing attacks, the talking points and the behavior, and why do you ignore what I actually said to attack me as someone who is "screaming" at you for pointing out rather calmly that you seem to be ignoring the actual source of the CONservatisms here?

[pinebox]

29. Quite a few

I am guessing you missed my original post with those screen caps linked within
How exactly am I screaming? I didn't use caps, I simply stated my position on myself and many other Bernie supporters feel. We've been royally screwed.

I'm not ignoring anything. I debunked your claim of " I'd love to know why you refuse to acknowledge where the nastiness on DU and on Kos is actually coming from. Here is a hint, it's not Hillary or her supporters as the threads rather clearly prove. " I just got through showing you that again from the former NH Dem chair. If you think that Hillary and her supporters aren't yelling all sorts of stuff, read this;

I suggest you use Google. Search it. The attacks on Bernie are conservative in nature and it comes from all angles. I'm sure not all these are cons disguised as Hillary supporters who are red baiting Bernie on twitter are they? https://twitter.com/search?q=Bernie%20socialist%20%20%23imwithher&src=typd

[Ferd Berfel]

51. If the Clinton's had not SOLD the Democratic Party to the Koch Bros (and others)

decades ago, Bernie probably could have called himself a Dem.

[liberal_at_heart]

33. When we're not even allowed to discuss raising taxes there is something wrong with the party.

The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party that supports social programs. How the hell are we supposed to have social programs without taxes?

[synergie]

40. Who isn't allowing you to discuss that?

[VulgarPoet]

100. So we're supposed to ignore the doom and gloom cries from y'all

that started coming out as SOON AS his words got taken out of context? Swear to God, there already is a party dedicated to being cheap, and it's not supposed to be us...

[OrwellwasRight]

195. +1000

there already is a party dedicated to being cheap, and it's not supposed to be us...

[99Forever]

28. Right there with you.

I won't leave the Democratic Party, but it may well leave me.

[HassleCat]

30. We have to repudiate Sanders!

We are in serious danger of becoming a relevant political party once again, a party that addresses the needs of the people, a party that strives to give the ordinary citizen a fair chance against the oligarchy, a party that makes a difference at all levels of government. Sanders could upset the whole deal, destroy everything we have worked for since 1980, cause people to register as Democrats, be active in the party, generate some widespread interest, and -- most dangerous of all -- delude us into thinking we can do great things again. No, no, and NO! We must not allow this! Sanders must be stopped at all costs. For 35 years, we have been on track to make our party irrelevant, and we are succeeding. We are so close! We must not give up now! Stop Sanders!

[pinebox]

31. I need to screencap that shit! LOL

[VulgarPoet]

101. Never thought I'd see what the republicans are doing to Obama happen within the party

when a candidate is actually trying to change shit is the really sad thing here... "Stop Sanders" sounds like something straight out of the Tea Party playbook, just swap Sanders with Obama...

[firebrand80]

32. I sure miss the days when the party was 100% Liberal

Wait, when was that again?

[pinebox]

35. So you enable people

to starve? Swim in debt? Work for nothing? Seriously, ask yourself this;

[firebrand80]

36. I did what now?

[pinebox]

45. You know exactly what you did and are doing.

[olddots]

34. this is more a sign of the dumbth in America

what we have is a country born and raised on TV and media becoming the message paid for by big bizz bullshit .

[beaglelover]

39. So, did someone hold a gun to your head and make you take those student loans? What is your degree

in and why can't you find a job to help you pay back the student loans you willingly took?

[pinebox]

48. Typical

Always the same be it from Republicans, Libertarians or Hillary supporters it seems. Always the same talking points.
Do you want to know my story? Do you? I'll tell you it.

I'm permanently disabled as ruled by SS. I have Alpha 1.
Now what?

[beaglelover]

54. Sorry to hear about your disability. I don't know what Alpha 1 is.

But your case is unique. Most people who take student loans do get a job so they can pay back those loans over time.

[pinebox]

62. Here

https://www.alpha1.org/what-is-alpha1
Many can't sadly though pay their loans back. Here is what I am getting at and sorry if I was harsh.

Why did Wall Street and Detroit get bailed out but the American people didn't? Student loan debt is a real issue and it is hurting the economy massively. For the cost of the Iraq war, we could have sent everybody to college and paid off all the student loans.
That's pretty huge.
Many will never be able to buy a car, a house, nothing. We're literally enslaving people for their whole lives. The government shouldn't be making money off kids. It's both morally and ethically wrong.

[beaglelover]

65. Wow, sorry. That sounds really terrible. I do agree that student loans should be interest free at

least.

[pinebox]

73. It sucks

It does, not easy. Oddly enough the ACA saved my life.

[beaglelover]

74. I'm glad to hear that about the ACA. I'm also glad you got approved for SS disability. I know that

is a long arduous process.

[pinebox]

91. It wasn't too bad

I was fortunate. Really fortunate. It took only about 6 months was all. Sometimes it can take years. Red tape needs to get cut bad

[Beacool]

218. I had never heard of Alpha 1.

I had to look it up. I'm sorry to hear that you are afflicted with it.

[pinebox]

220. It's not fun but...

I did get an actual signed letter from Oabama! XD I wrote him and told him my story. I am a tad reluctant to post it in public well, here what the heck http://stupidrwnjshit.tumblr.com/post/67848631840/why-the-aca-works-my-story the ACA did save my life after all, literally.

[Beacool]

269. Wow, you've really gone to Hell and back.

I'm glad that you're able to breath better. Did you have the additional surgeries?

[pinebox]

270. thanks

I'm scheduled for another this summer, scary stuff

[Beacool]

271. Yes, it must be.

Chin up and best luck to you.

[liberal_at_heart]

53. wow. Is this what the Democratic Party is now? Sad.

[beaglelover]

56. Do you not agree with personal responsibility?

[pinebox]

64. beaglelover what are you doing?

You just repeated verbatim what I outlined in my post ..../headesk

[liberal_at_heart]

69. I believe that only the rich get to go to college in this country these days and I would

expect the Democratic Party to do something to help the middle class and the poor go to college. There could be millions of young minds out there that could solve our biggest problems and yet they will never be realized because they didn't have the fortune of being born rich. There used to be a saying that education is the great equalizer. That saying is no longer true in this country because you have to be already rich in order to get an education. Personally, I believe our higher education system should be set up like the K-12 system; paid for with taxes and available to everybody. I don't see too many Democrats saying we shouldn't be paying taxes to pay for K-12, well not yet anyway.

[seaglass]

171. We're not rich and paid for my daughter to get a BS at a 4 year public college. I know lots of

non-rich people who have done the same thing.

[jhart3333]

81. Pretty obnoxious and standard fare for 1%ers talking down to the 99%.

Talk to the gal at the Bernie rally about getting a college degree and having to work for minimum wage and move back in with her parents. Than see how high on the list of priorities paying back your student loan gets. There should never have been a need for a student loan in the first place.

[beaglelover]

90. What did that person major in at college? Why is she working a minimum wage job after

receiving a college degree?

[liberal_at_heart]

108. You are kidding right? Do you think she wants to be working a minimum wage job after going to

college? Obviously she is working a minimum wage job because that is what is available. Our economy has been changing over the past 40 years. Union factory work is dead, not to mention what 2008 did to the job landscape. People with college degrees are having to work part time jobs in the service industry because those are the only jobs available right now.

[VulgarPoet]

111. Which you can thank loosened corporate regulations by your pals at the establishment for

when H1B visas are being given because Google, Microsoft, and Apple got called out on their anti-poaching shit-- it's just so much cheaper to hire from out of country, and deny Americans who trained for those job to languish in the gutters, innit?

[liberal_at_heart]

112. Oh, I agree with that too.

[redstateblues]

109. So will I be reimbursed for scrimping and saving

To send my daughter to a near by affordable college. News flash: you don't have to borrow money to get a good degree.

[frylock]

145. Now?

Those of us on the outside saw this shit YEARS ago.

[Red Knight]

231. Great post!

I'm sick of it too. And all of the so-called liberal Dem leaders are showing their true colors now. Nancy Pelosi with her: "He's talking about a single-payer, and that's not going to happen. I mean, does anybody in this room think that we're going to be discussing a single-payer?" she asked. "I've been for single-payer for 30 years, and it is a very popular idea in our country. But we have made a decision about where we're going on healthcare."

Who is WE?

The so-called "leaders"?

No thanks, Nancy.

I'm with Bernie. Work with him--or don't. If you don't you'll be exposed for frauds.

[abelenkpe]

77. Great illustration of how the country has been pulled to the right. nt

[jeff47]

124. Statistic you probably don't know

There is 1 entry-level STEM job for every 6 people graduating with STEM degrees.

You know, those degrees that are supposed to be so valuable and guarantee a prosperous future. Supposedly so great that taking out that loan is a good investment.

Here's a longer article on the subject: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

[VulgarPoet]

126. Is it any wonder why millennials are trending against Hillary

she's part of the same corporate kleptocratic clique that sold away our futures for profits. And then lied through their teeth saying there'd be enough for everyone.

[k8conant]

157. My son got B.S. in Mathematics in 2012...

and has been working part-time minimum-wage non-STEM jobs ever since. He has applied for countless entry-level STEM jobs.

[wilt the stilt]

209. If he wants to make money

go into IT work. Business will pay excellent income to IT people. Within 3 years he should be making upwards of $75,000.

[jeff47]

261. Still runs into that statistic above. There are more STEM graduates than IT jobs. (nt)

[wilt the stilt]

262. I'm in high tech

a good one always finds a job.

[jeff47]

263. And the ones who aren't "good"?

Shall we just "get rid of the surplus population"?

[wilt the stilt]

264. The you do what a ton of people do

career change. He is a young man. If you have waited 4 years an you don't have a job in your field then move on. How can anyone accept minimum wage with a college degree. My daughter and son just graduated. my daughter took a job and has worked her way up to $44,000. My son graduated in Jan. He took a cold calling job. base was $35,00 with incentives to 60K.

Stop crying and survive.

[jeff47]

265. So, is there a magic job fairy then?

Well, I guess anything to avoid looking at systemic problems like H1Bs.

[wilt the stilt]

267. I grew up poor

and you do what you have to do to survive. There is a systemic problem with H1's. Are you going to cry about it and work a minimum wage job. Get off your ass and make it happen.

I fooled around in life and i was a waiter until i was 33 years old. I did a career change and took the crappiest sales job. I was basically selling cash registers door to door. I have worked my way up and i now have my own business doing lead generation. I busted my ass to make it happen. I make very good money now.

Sometimes the whining on this site gets to me and I am very liberal. However, I am a capitalist. One of the guys I work with is also very liberal and he busts his ass in sales. he made 300k last year.

We don't sit around and whine.

We are both relentless.

This kid is 25 years old and he is settling . pathetic.

[k8conant]

272. He is not settling and he is not pathetic...

He has been applying for IT jobs continually and not getting them, just as I have been applying for IT jobs for 10 years (with 25 years experience) and not getting them. (I have my own IT consulting company and do Internet research mostly now, when I'm not doing software development)

Obviously there are folks on here that are in the 1%.

I too am sick of the conservatism that has infiltrated the Democratic Party from Bill Clinton on.

[Odin2005]

257. I switched from Biotech to Psychology because of this.

When I was in high school in the early 00s Biotech was hyped up to all hell in the wake of the completion of the Human Genome Project. By 2007 I realized that the hugely optimistic claims were not going to pan out and that there was going to be a huge glut of biotech majors, so I switched my major.

And I still am working a shit job despite my psych degree, everyone wants a Masters, now.

[frylock]

141. Should have thought about that before you had all them babies..

and other right-wing tropes.

[Hissyspit]

251. Oh my god.

That's your argument?

Fuck right-wing talking points. Way to prove the OP's point.

[Odin2005]

256. That is LITTERALY Republican rhetoric.

[blue neen]

41. You've never been a Democrat, but you're sick of the conservatism which has infiltrated the party?

Right-o.

[pinebox]

50. Is there are problem with that?

Ask yourself WHY I have never have been? We can start in the 80s and 90s with gay marriage and go from there.

[blue neen]

76. Yes, WHY haven't you been working for Democrats all along?

There are people on this board who have been lifelong voting Democrats, and not just in Presidential elections. I have worked in Democratic campaigns at every level of government, from local magistrate races on up to Gubernatorial, Senate and Presidential elections. I've traveled to other states and hosted campaign workers at my house, and donated money and resources.

Many of those campaigns resulted in electing the people who would support gay marriage, who would support raising the minimum wage----and we need more like them. Independents aren't the ones who will be doing that work.

So, yeah. There is a problem with you bragging about never being a Democrat, never lifting a finger to help. Yet, somehow you have the creds to tell Democrats on a Democratic forum how very wrong they are.

[pinebox]

87. You want to know why

I will tell you.

Where did I brag about anything? Since when is stating ones background considered "bragging"?
Where did I say I didn't lift a finger to help? Where did I elude to that? Oh you're assuming! I got it. Let's start with Colorado Amendment 64 and go from there. Next up let's go with Defenders of Wildlife and how fracking has become an issue in my state but you wouldn't know this would you? Not when my Dem governor is drinking fracking water saying it's "safe".

Why should I have to explain anything to you? You should be glad I switched to Dem to vote for a Dem candidate NOT giving me some diatribe about "my Dem e-peen bigger than yours" line.

Sorry but not sorry I stand for things which you probably don't.

Indies won't be doing the work? Tell that to the massive crowds at Bernie rallies who are largely just that; indies who are now Dems.
Again, you complain but who exactly here is growing the Dem party?

Bernie.

[VulgarPoet]

103. +1. Would I that I had more than one kick to give.

[blue neen]

170. "Sorry but not sorry I stand for things which you probably don't"

says the Independent who wouldn't even be able to vote in Primaries in my state, Pennsylvania. You wouldn't have been doing squat to get Democrats elected, so that's not standing for much. Oh, and "e-peen"? That's inappropriate.

If people like you would have been around in 2010, it would have made a real difference.

Oh, guess what. We have fracking here too. You may have heard about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10741487

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10741037

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1074708

Now, go on back to reading The Intercept with Glenn Greenwald. We have nothing further to discuss.

[pinebox]

193. Would you re-read my post please

So much reading fail in this thread.

Then Bernie came along. I have watched Bernie for years and outside of Bernie, if Warren didn't run, my candidate was going to be Jill Stein. I know, she has no hope in being elected which IMHO is shameful but Bernie gave me a shot. A real shot at something which I deeply believe in. So I switched my affiliation to Dem in order to caucus with him.

[blue neen]

196. If there is so much "reading fail" in this thread, maybe it's the wording that's the problem.

Or perhaps, it's the intent.

I know how to read, and I also know how to read between the lines. You switched your affiliation to Democratic to caucus with Bernie. Are you going to stay a Democrat if he doesn't get the nomination? Are you going to work to get other Democrats elected?

We have a very good chance to put a Democrat in Pat Toomey's Senate seat. No matter which Democrat is elected as President, we will need all the Senate seats we can get. There's work to do. We'll also need to win a number of Congressional seats. Here's an excellent candidate in PA who has a good chance of winning PA-12:

https://www.facebook.com/ErinforPA/

If you're going to stay a Democrat, I welcome you. If you're not, well, then I just don't have the time.

I wasn't going to answer your post, but it is important that the information about great Democratic candidates like Erin McClelland gets out there. Check it out, please.

I also added some links to Post #170 about fracking so you can see what some of us have been working on all along.

[pinebox]

222. Neither

What I am saying is this;

The party has moved right, drastically. When we have 89 Dem senators voting to gut SNAP & only 9 opposing, there's a huge problem.

I haven't made up my mind if I'll stay a Dem or not. I won't say that here because of TOS either BUT I will say this--I am completely turned off by the politics involved and the money involved in politics and I have been for a very long time. I'm quite far left. I realize this, I openly admit it. Truthfully, I'm to the left of most Dems.

What I want to see is people like DWS be replaced by progressives. I'm not sure if you're aware of this but Bernie has done something that has truly flown under the radar, he is getting new people to run who are of his way of thinking and they are challenging incumbent Dems who are more conservative. DWS's challenger is Tim Canova https://timcanova.com and in Iowa there's Gary Kroeger who's a Bernie Dem. He's quite a guy too, I speak with him often on Twitter. He gets us.


You say you don't have the time but maybe you should listen because there are areas which I think we all agree on. This is what I wrote 2 years ago on what I believe on my otherwise very outdated blog...this is where I stand.

[Odin2005]

258. I agree with everyling in your list!

[pinebox]

259. thanks

[valerief]

43. K&R

[NurseJackie]

44. Well, it certainly sounds like you've made up your mind.

It's not clear to me what you want to accomplish with this post. I doubt that it's intended to actually change anyone's mind.

But, in spite of the unclear motivations, I do hope your heartfelt post doesn't get hidden for insulting Hillary supporters with your comparisons and painting with such a broad brush, as happens so often when an Hillary supporter crosses-the-line. (Oh, silly me! Who am I kidding? You'll probably be just fine.)

Honestly, I have NEVER been a Democrat. I align with Greens on most issues...

That certainly explains a lot. Thank you for sharing.

[pinebox]

55. You missed this part

"I know not all Hillary supporters are like that"
Please re-read again what I said.

And while we're at it, read the meme again, specifically the first one and then tell us how please Hillary is growing the party, we'll wait

[Matariki]

60. The OP is speaking to a lot of frustration people are feeling

It's pretty damn clear. That inability to GET this is what's going to make Clinton's loss so confusing to you and so profoundly funny to the rest of us.

[pinebox]

66. Thank you

[frylock]

155. 1000-yard stares across the board..

the hubris of Clinton Supporter is what's going to make her inevitable flame out all the more fun to watch.

[pinebox]

161. Yup!

2,000 posts with a reply to you and you earned it

[Oilwellian]

242. Yes, mocking Independents

and being snooty about one's Dem credentials, doesn't sound like a good strategy to win elections. Independents are, after all, a large majority of voters.

[Politicub]

46. I'm sick of the fundamentalist orthodoxy infecting some called progressives

The with us or against us mentality of so many Sanders supporters gets tiresome.

[pinebox]

57. You know what's tireseome, I'll tell ya

Millions swimming in student loan debt. That's tiresome.

[Politicub]

61. I agree with you on that. It is tiresome.

There's a lot about Sanders I like, including his approach to tuition for public colleges. It will be expensive to execute his plan, but worth the investment.

But some of his more "enthusiastic" supporters? No so much.

[pinebox]

70. I'm enthusiastic

and passionate but you have to see it this way; we're frustrated and we're mad. Really mad. Many Sanders supporters express what many American's feel; things really ARE NOT that great & for millions they aren't. Real unemployment is through the roof and there's more people on govt assistance than ever before. The poor and working class finally have a voice with Bernie. As Obama said "get fired up" but as Bernie would add "We're fed up!" to that saying too.

[Politicub]

78. I get it. But people can thoughtfully come to a different conclusion about who to support

in the primary. They shouldn't be subjected to being belittled and accused of being uninformed -- that goes for both sides. I know some Hillary supporters can be over the top, too. I am myself sometimes.

But at some point, we're all going to have to come together and make sure a republican doesn't win in November. The election is not that far out.

[pinebox]

83. It will be hard and I'll be honest

because a lot of Bernie supporters will never vote for Hillary.
It is what it is.

[Politicub]

92. I don't care about the "will never vote for Hillary" crowd, honestly

If people are so rigid in their opinion, nothing I can say or do can sway them. So why even try?

[seaglass]

173. The person you are responding to has already said he will never vote for Hillary. To me his entire

OP is worthless, pretending to care about others while enabling Republicans.

[pinebox]

223. You say I enable Republicans

Yet IMHO you're candidate is pretty darn close to one and I can prove it right here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/6/4/1390529/-Hillary-s-voting-record

Even better? This.



Remember that from the Obama/Hillary debates? I do. We all do. Who's enabling who again?

[seaglass]

228. I don't have a candidate. n/t

[Ferd Berfel]

47. The Democratic Party hasn't been infliltrated - IT WAS SOLD to the right wing

by the DLC Clinton's (and others) decades ago to the KOCH Bros and other extreme right wing corporatists

[pinebox]

58. Bingo!

[daleanime]

49. Massive K&R.....

[Matariki]

52. LOL - they even spell like Republicans

"Maybe your to young to understand okay I'm not"

[pinebox]

59. Gimme my logo back!

LOL

[ChiciB1]

118. One Of The First Things I Noticed! Maybe Someone Should Have Gone

to college. I see spelling errors over and over and over. I suppose that's a small point, but the reality is that THIS country has fallen behind in so many, many areas. I've been a lifelong Democrat who has already stated this. I support Bernie 100% and DO believe that Hillary is JUST MORE OF THE SAME. I'm SICK OF IT! I'm a Boomer and do realize that there's always been political corruption to some degree, BUT NEVER have I seen anything like what we have now. Back then at least I felt we made a difference by speaking out and by saying NO MORE! Politicians did listen and things got done.

NOW, we're not only fighting our very own Democratic Party who I think may know, or at least SHOULD know what's happened with all the MONEY that has influenced CONGRESS and many, many other down ticket elected officials. BECAUSE of all the money there are so many good people who think about running for office who won't because they know they can't raise the money. This country is officially an Oligarchy and I too am scared shitless! And I do have kids who have HUGE student debt.

I agree with this OP completely, with one caveat... As a lifetime Democrat after this election, depending on who gets elected. If it's Hillary, I leave the Party and change my affiliation.

I have one more point to make because I've already agreed with the OP. I TRULY believe Bernie will and already has been able to show others to jump in and run for office. There's ONE very important race going on here in my state of FL, it's the one where DWS is up for re-election. Tim Canova has decided to throw his hat in and he's getting HUGE support and rallying many, many people who want DWS GONE! I'm thrilled that he's done this and it shows me that at the very least having Bernie deciding to run, HE WILL have COAT TAILS and this country may be on the road to recovery! If Canova wins, that's one DLC/Third Way Congress Critter I'll be so happy to see GONE!

I've said I'll vote for "HER" if I HAVE to, but I have to say that I find it VERY, VERY distasteful. And as was stated above, I'm not really sure she will make a difference regarding the Supreme Court, but since I can't say for sure, this is the ONE reason I will have to make my left hand hold my right hand to cast the vote. I've never felt more unhappy about having to vote for a person in my life. I know I might get called out for saying this about "HER," but I can not tell a lie!

For me... NO MORE status quo, we need new DIRECTION, we need a Renewal of a once Great Nation who works for "we the people" and not Wall Street and TPTB!

I FEEL THE BERN, deeply in my soul!

[MisterP]

253. they're so cute when they play radical, innit?

all they can do is close ranks and chant "We will NOT be SILENCED!" over anyone else trying to talk

[Yupy]

63. That Tweeter birdie girl probably got paid by Goldman Sachs, not to worry we know better!

[pinebox]

72. heh she dislikes me lol

[fbc]

85. People get old... or they make a lot of money...

That doesn't mean they become racist morons who would support the republicans. They basically want republican economic policy ("fuck you, I got mine&quot without the 18th century social positions.

[pinebox]

89. precisely

[sharp_stick]

93. Infiltrated?

Conservatism has been there the whole time. The Democratic party has never been a progressive monolith.

In fact there are fewer Blue Dogs in Congress now than at any time since the coalition was founded in 1994. Some of that decline, if not most of it, is probably due to Democratic loss of seats in the South to the republicans.

[sammythecat]

104. My own theory of this conservatism

is that most, if not nearly all, Hillary supporters, especially the ones that dis Bernie, are "sittin' pretty". They're pretty secure and comfortable and they're just not interested in any kind of "revolution". Even though it's just about all a matter of luck, they're of the conservative mindset that they got theirs, you get yours.

This is all concerning money issues. Not social issues. On social issues we're all aligned (even though many Hillary supporters somehow refuse to believe it).

Excellent OP, btw.

[VulgarPoet]

105. Basically "I got mine, you can f off", right?

Despicable.

[sammythecat]

110. Yep. That's pretty much it.

[NastyRiffraff]

113. Well, it is a "theory"

Not a fact. Here's one Hillary supporter who is definitely NOT "sittin' pretty." I'm positive there are others, and that is not just a "theory."

[pinebox]

115. Ok but if that's the case

why do you support Hillary? Bernie would actually save you money is health care cost alone so I'm genuinely curious.

[NastyRiffraff]

178. Evidence?

With at least one link, please, on how Bernie would actually save me money on MY health care? Also, how on earth do you know about my health care costs? I know you're "genuinely curious," but I would hope your curiosity doesn't involve stealing my identity!

[pinebox]

180. lol no stealing identity

I know because single payer is cheaper than the system we currently have.
Here is a really good link on it all http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-system-cost It's a pretty fascinating look at it all.
You have to remember that we have the most expensive health care costs of all first world countries. One thing I wish Obama would have done is reinstate American's abilities to purchase drugs from Canadian pharmacies. W banned that and made it illegal

[NastyRiffraff]

182. All very well but, 2 things

You know nothing about my health care costs, and more important, single payer hasn't a prayer of passing. Obama tried hard, but he had to deal with Congress. (So will Bernie, BTW)

[OrwellwasRight]

200. Please provide one piece of evidence that

"Obama tried hard" for single payer.

Please provide one speech, even one sentence in which stated that he wanted the public option and was fighting for it. And not during the campaign -- only after inauguration day counts. Anyone will say anything to get elected.

As I recall, he told progressive Senators to give up on the public option. When Joe Lieberman, the idiot that caused all the trouble, started threatening to filibuster any bill that had the public option in it (and this was well before Ted Kennedy died), the President should have called that "Independent Democrat," pro-war piece of trash and told him, support the public option or else you will lose your chairmanship. That is what Presidents who give a shit about policy do. Instead, Obama told every Democratic Senator to cave to Lieberman--not even a real fucking Democrat--and sent his attack dog Rahm Emanuel to call us "insane" and "fucking retards" for wanting the public option (for which Rahm apologized to the disability community but never to progressives).

But hey, if you have evidence that the President ever once lifted a finger to enact the public option, which at a high mark had nearly 70% public support, please do share.

http://dissentingjustice.blogspot.com/2010/02/fucking-retards-why-didnt-rahm-emanuel.html
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/29/6/1117.full

[NastyRiffraff]

232. Here ya go:

Obama tells doctors: ‘The public option is not your enemy, it is your friend.’

In a weekly address on July 17, 2009:

That’s why any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans – including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest – and choose what’s best for your family.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/weekly-address-president-obama-says-health-care-reform-cannot-wait

In a conference call with bloggers in July, 2009, Obama said:

But I will tell you that, as I’ve been very clear about before, I continue to believe that a robust public option would be the best way to go.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2009/07/20/170878/obama-i-continue-to-believe-that-a-robust-public-option-would-be-the-best-way-to-go/

In an address to congress on Sept 9, 2009 (this was the "You lie!" speech) Obama said:

Obama expressed his support for a government insurance option that would compete with private insurance companies as a way stimulate competition and lower overall health care costs.

He also added, in the same speech:

"To my progressive friends, I would remind you that for decades, the driving idea behind reform has been to end insurance company abuses and make coverage affordable for those without it," he said. "The public option is only a means to that end -- and we should remain open to other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal.

"And to my Republican friends," he added, "I say that rather than making wild claims about a government takeover of health care, we should work together to address any legitimate concerns you may have."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/obama-health-care-speech-urge-public-option/story?id=8525533

There's more, and a simple Google search gives you plenty of results.

BTW "70% public support" did not include the Republican Congress.

[OrwellwasRight]

244. "we should remain open to other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal"

Not a ringing endorsement, and not evidence that he was working to make it pass.

Instead he was working to defeat it:

"Even while President Obama was saying that he thought a public option was a good idea and encouraging supporters to believe his healthcare plan would include one, he had promised for-profit hospital lobbyists that there would be no public option in the final bill."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/ny-times-reporter-confirm_b_500999.html

"House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) indicated that the public option is likely dead, citing Obama’s decision not to include it in his healthcare proposal that was released on Monday.

Hoyer did say, however, that the House still has the votes to pass a public option. The House healthcare reform measure that passed in November called for a government-run program."

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/83153-hoyer-public-option-is-likely-dead

And where was Obama when Lieberman threatened to filibuster the public option? Right behind him!

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/02/16/16766/elimination-public-option-threw-consumers-insurance-wolves

And there are lots more if you do a google search.

There is a difference between the pablum you tell people that you want to like you (i.e., bloggers) and what you really do to get something done. What Obama did was work to eliminate the public option. Try re-reading my last post. There is no use discussing this further until you understand the difference between PR and actually working to get something done. That is what Obama is doing with the TPP. It is NOT what he did for the public option.

[NastyRiffraff]

250. Well, I agree with one thing you said:

"There is no use discussing this further" ...with you. I'm done here. I don't talk to people who move goalposts. You asked for linked evidence and I gave it to you. I can't help it if you don't like it.

[sammythecat]

227. The phrase I used, "most, if not all", predicts exceptions.

I just knew I'd have to explain the obvious. From www.k12reader.com/what-is-reading-comprehension/:

"Simply put, reading comprehension is the act of understanding what you are reading."

[Odin2005]

260. IMO this mindset is part of the reason why unions have been in decline for decades.

A lot of people seem to think this was all because of RW propaganda and union-busting, Which I think is not entirely correct. The unions were purged of the true radical left activists back during McCarthyism and ever since they have degenerated into "I've got mine, fuck you" interest groups, what Marxist writers call a "labor aristocracy" that stands with the Capitalist establishment against the rest of the working class. So it doesn't surprise me at all that so many unions are supporting Clinton rather than Sanders. They have become part of the party machine.

[joshcryer]

116. Uh, the 2016 platform will be the most left wing in HISTORY.

No matter who the candidate is. It's obvious you're one of those low information independents.

[jeff47]

129. Uh, the 2008 platform called for single-payer healthcare

and one of our candidates in 2016 took that off the table.

[frylock]

158. Low information, indeed.

[joshcryer]

164. That is a flat out lie.

Please quote the relevant text: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=78283

[pinebox]

149. When you have no argument resort to ad hominem attacks

It's obvious you're one of those low information independents.

Oh is that a fact? Tell us Josh why Hillary throwing single payer under the bus? Why is she fighting for a non living wage? Why is she trumpeting and bragging about voting for a border fence? Why is she wavering on KXL? Why did she call the TPP the gold standard more than FORTY TIMES? Name one trade deal which has been awesome for American workers? Go for it!

Before you call someone a low information, you better have replies to back that smack up because I will throw the kitchen sink at you with how Hillary is wrong with the country. I have over 1,000 bookmarked examples & it's not RW junk either.

We can start here.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/6/4/1390529/-Hillary-s-voting-record

You may wish to think before you call someone a low information indy. This dog bites.

[joshcryer]

167. The platform is created at the DNC.

By the state delegations. I really don't see the relevance of your post, it doesn't matter who the candidate is.

[pinebox]

181. Oh but the DNC is certainly a problem

and it's a huge one at that too. DWS needs to go adios.

[joshcryer]

204. The convention not the committee.

DWS has no control over the Democratic National Convention, the delegates do, who we elect. And they will vote on the most left wing, progressive platform in the parties history.

But DWS does need to go from the committee.

[pinebox]

241. I disagree

"And they will vote on the most left wing, progressive platform in the parties history. "
Disagree. FDR was more progressive. The New Deal. 1932 & 1936. http://millercenter.org/ridingthetiger/fdr-1936-convention-speech
Also-- http://www.history.com/topics/new-deal

You say that DWS has no control over the convention BUT you have to look outside the box some. http://usuncut.com/politics/debbie-wasserman-schultz-hillary-clinton/ It all leads up to it.

[Trajan]

159. Man, what happened to you?

What a ridiculous assessment ...

Most liberal in history? ... Hah ...

Screw this ... Sayonara ...

[olddots]

188. thousands would believe you

[joshcryer]

206. When the platform is released we can have this conversation.

[in_cog_ni_to]

125. Damn, that's good! Those disgusting Tweets

sounds exactly like the typical RW THIRD WAY HRH supporters here.

Bernie's going to win the nomination and go on to trump TRUMP'S ass in the GE. This country is sick to death of RW POLITICS! Enough is enough!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

131. The "not as bad", "lesser of two evils", wing of the party has been with us a long time.

[Blue_Tires]

133. Shall I post some examples of what

the more, shall we say, "vocal" Sanders supporters have been saying on twitter? Because I know you don't want that...

Instead of complaining about Dems and Hillary on an online forum in front of a bunch of people you don't know, perhaps your efforts would be better spent stumping for your candidate, because no matter who supports which candidate here, DUers are locked into their decision and you aren't changing any minds...

And FWIW, if you keep whining about ditching your Dem affiliation and going back to Indy after the election, perhaps you need to ask yourself whether you were ever a Dem in the first place...

[pinebox]

150. Go for it

Please do.
As far as my whining, you said "perhaps you need to ask yourself whether you were ever a Dem in the first place..."
Obviously you didn't read what I wrote because I answered that. Fully.

As far as DU'ers locked into their minds and nobody is going to change here, funny because I have already swayed 2 people that Bernie is better in previous posts

[Blue_Tires]

175. Just a quick sampling -- The rest you can find yourself

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/09/23/on-twitter-bernie-sanderss-supporters-are-becoming-one-of-his-biggest-problems/


https://twitter.com/LucasTemple/status/666242730088005632

https://twitter.com/SeattleBern/status/686706601722396672

This asshole went after ABL and smeared her for not worshipping at the Sanders shrine (see the whole thread): https://twitter.com/freddiedeboer/status/689612295761195008
And ABL's podcast: https://twitter.com/AngryBlackLady/status/689484931089629184

and a little Coates backlash:
https://twitter.com/BalzacPoliticz/status/689936342579474432
https://twitter.com/brandonahmir/status/691412031858040833
https://twitter.com/brandonahmir/status/691413083110047744
https://twitter.com/NathanJPK/status/691420788109475841
https://twitter.com/WEAVERBRAND91/status/691422219709214720

Pretty much all of Lee Fang's TL is worth looking at, since he's a fanatic (and it's no coincidence that he writes for the Intercept, of course) https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/691436906647810048

And this assclown deserves a special award
https://twitter.com/lwoodhouse/status/691440930545491968

[pinebox]

183. Some of these aren't too bad actually

Some of these I don't really have an issue with or a fight with. The entire BLM thing I stay clear of completely. Some are rather questionable however. I will say this much, I don't think these are as bad as what I posted. The one with court docs though is quite concerning and the problem here is that it's public info, a concern which we should be talking about as it relates to privacy. Often times that gets swept under the rug a lot because we're too busy yelling "socialism!"

Now that being said, I personally have not seen any Sanders supporters target BLM at all. Not a one and if I did I would certainly hit them with the stupid stick. This tweet however https://twitter.com/LucasTemple/status/666242730088005632 I don't see anything wrong with minus the C word at the end. That was said a great deal by many and that was a crap line with the sexist attacks.

As far as this one goes https://twitter.com/AngryBlackLady/status/689484931089629184 I just asked Benjamin Dixon @TheBpDShowto handle it. He's a good guy and I stay out of BLM issues.

Hillary is a dirty politician. Remember the 3am ad and this? People are fed up with her. That shows a lot these days.

[frylock]

160. Please proceed.

[still_one]

136. Good job just dissing all Hillary supporters. If Sander's wins the nomination do you think he can

win the GE without those awful Hillary supporters?

[pinebox]

151. Why is it hard to read? Seriously!?

I specifically stated "I know not all Hillary supporters are like this"
/facepalm

[still_one]

166. If it is in the OP it isn't obvious. Your long tedious diatribe WAS directed mostly at Hillary

supporters, and when you use such phrases as following throughout the OP:

"prevalent among Hillary supporters."
“Hillary supporters don't get us”
"Its the Hillary Clinton supporters "

You are at the very least being disingenuous when you say this isn't a call out against Hillary supporters.

and after calling out all the Hillary supporters, which you did, then embedded within this verbiage, 3/4 of the way down, you casually mention "I know not all of her supporters are like this too". Nice after thought, after completely dissing all Hillary supporters, and then expecting people to read through this entire garbage, to find one brief sentence. Very clever, but you are not fooling anyone.

However, you were sincere about one thing when you said you really align yourself with the greens, and after the election, you plan to disavow any relationship identifying yourself with the Democratic party

[VulgarPoet]

168. Lack of reading comprehension and a need to spin us as morons. eom

[still_one]

172. He spent the first 3/4 of the OP dissing Hillary supporters, then cleverly puts a brief sentence

that he realizes it isn't "all Hillary supporter", then for the final 1/4 of the OP spews out more venom

He would make some lawyers very proud

I wonder how many times he edited the OP

[pinebox]

243. Don't be mad

I showed facts, it is what it is. /shrug
Not all Hillary supporters are like that BUT many are. What has honestly happened to the Dem party? FDR is rolling over in his grave right now.

[still_one]

245. No, you demonstrated exactly what you are, by your own words

[pinebox]

247. You're right

A progressive who stands for this.
Yup these are my own words

[still_one]

254. a green who doesn't want to be associated with the Democratic party

[mvd]

144. I've been angry about it for a long time

Back in the 90s, I just supported the party line and was happy about President Clinton. But the older I get, the more upset I am about the party's rightward tilt. It has completely allowed the "center" in this country to go right, since the Repukes have gone insanely to the right. It's not about winning, like some say. Corporate influence in our party has a lot to do with it. Look at the state of this country - we have outrageous drug prices, high health care costs, Wall Street still left largely unchecked, huge college loan debt, social security without increases, more war, stagnant wages while the rich get richer, etc. And this is with a Democratic President - it would be even worse if a Repuke won in 2008 or 2012. Yes, guns are a big concern, but I think Bernie has evolved on the issue. I believe only Bernie would work to completely change the system. If Hillary had things like Single Payer as an ultimate goal, I would feel better. But she just dismisses the idea. Let's hope Bernie at least created a lasting discussion in the party. I still think Hillary is the favorite, so got to keep up the pressure from the left. And hope for the best.

[RKP5637]

152. If the US stays with the SOS from the RNC and DNC, the US will find itself at the bottom of

the totem pole in the future. I'm fed up with the SOS too, we can't do this, we can't do that. I'm with Bernie!!! This is the season to dump all of the traditional shackles that are so F'en obsolete and sinking the US for the majority of the citizens.

[FrenchieCat]

162. "Stupid rich ass democrat dipshit" is what I was called....

by an alleged Sanders Supporter because I own a small business....
and they were getting frustrated with our debate (as I do have the tendency to frustrate many due to what I consider good answers).....

Same person called me a "corprotist" (that is how they spelled it) and warned me that they were coming for my corporate loopholes!

this was on done on an political FB forum made up mainly of Black and Hispanic Democrats by someone identifying as advocating for Bernie Sanders. (I have a screen pic of this person's post whose name I choose not to reveal at this time, but if I need to prove the voracity of this encounter, I will). Person also said that I should be glad they haven't giving out my name yet, as they were thinking of siccing a bunch of progressive friends on me (their words).

How did this person know personal information about me? cause person looked up my FB profile which I thought was set to "only Friends"! Is someone can help me know how to set the privacy on FB, that would be great!

Yes, my hubby and I, with a partner, do own a small business. It's a relatively small Mom & Pop, in where we certainly pay a decent wages to our employees, some who have been with us since the opening of the business 28 years ago. In other words, we pay ourselves last, if there's anything left. I also have a 2nd career, and most of those earnings pay for our personal expenses, and the rest goes to lending the tiny business what it might need when required, which is too often.

This person also looked at my FB photos evidently, because they also told me that they certainly couldn't afford the kind of dinner table that I have. This person was looking at a picture I had taken of my Husband's 65 year birthday dinner party table, where I had joined two tables together to accommodate 18 guests. Yes, it looked like I had a huge table (as we switched out the dining room and the living room as the room is an open concept), but why is anyone looking at my pictures and telling me that they don't have what I have? Why do I have to minimize the grandeur of my decor in celebrating my husband turning 65? Seriously?

What is true is that I am not poor. What is also true is that I am not rich. The facts are, I am a struggling middle class person, an immigrant, who, with my husband (who was born in the Projects), have spend pretty much every dime we've ever had paying for our children's education (they are now grown), and have lived in the same house (it's a pretty nice house), for the past 26 years! Geeze.....I drive a 1998 Ford Explorer....
But why would I have to justify my life to someone calling me names? I didn't get that at all.

I understand that said person is frustrated, I'm sure. But to take it out on good minority Democrats (this group was formed in 2011) is ridiculous and counter productive, IMO.

We went back and forth, and this person eventually agreed that they would remove the post, coincidentally after I mentioned that my husband was also an unpaid Minister at one of the largest and oldest Black churches in the Bay Area, and that part of what we do community work all of the time. This church is not a mega church...it's a community building church in the heart of the flat lands of East Oakland, which is the Blackest and poorest area of Oakland.

If this was Sanders' Volunteer outreach, than that's not good, as this person is posting on a mostly minority site, and there are others like that there calling Hillary every imaginable name in the book! Liar, corporatist, bought and paid for, etc, etc, etc....And they are still there posting....although the volume appears to have been tone down, when the group founder put out a all capital notice pinned to the top of the page after that exchange and a few others similar exchanges went down!

But to intimidate, bully, snoop, assume and call names is a bit much for anybody....and a giant turn off to myself and to anyone who may have witnessed the conversation.

This person also did announce that they would not be voting for Hillary Clinton EVER, even if Hillary was the eventual nominee.

If this is how Bernie supporters are going to convince others in the caucuses, they may intimidate enough of the undecideds to win, but at what cost?

[mhatrw]

198. It ain't easy supporting the Hillagarchy.

It's truly criminal the way some peons don't appreciate their betters.

[FrenchieCat]

203. I find your sarcastic response disgusting.

I get it. You don't give a shit.

Thought you might say at the very least....probably was a Freeper in disguise,
or something like that!

[blue neen]

214. I'm sorry all of this happened to you, Frenchie Cat.

You deserve better.

[FrenchieCat]

215. Thanks blue neen.....

and nice to see you!

[blue neen]

224. Same here, Frenchie Cat.

Same here.

[blue neen]

213. That was unneccessarily snarky comment

made to someone who was sincerely relating an upsetting incident.

Good luck. You're going to need it. Compassionate people usually have compassionate friends, and vice versa.

[bettyellen]

273. Swooped in to prove her point, wow. Good fucking luck on the campaign trail....

because people love snark like that.

[pinebox]

221. I'll respond in the AM, I'm beat

I'll say this though, the vitriol this election is pretty awesome and not in a good way. Sometimes we forget that there's other people on the other side of the screen. We all get carried away and wrapped up in things, we're all guilty of it and I'm no different.

I'll check DU in the am and get with you

[pinebox]

246. Ok let's address this

First off, your facebook settings https://www.facebook.com/help/325807937506242/ You can set everything to only friends, including any personal info you want, where you live, where you work, photos, all of that.

Secondly, the person you ran into is scum. Period. Full on scum. I get comments like that on a daily basis on twitter, endlessly. All the time. In fact I just got this one this morning;



It's incredibly disheartening that I am hearing a LOT of talking points from HRC supporters throwing RW crap in our faces about how we should take "personal responsibility". This is a Rand Paul talking point. In fact, http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/04/07/full_text_of_sen_rand_pauls_campaign_launch_126179.html
" With your help, this message will ring from coast to coast, a message of liberty, justice and personal responsibility"

Supposed Democrats are now preaching that message?

What you ran into was a troll and nothing less than that. Honestly, if you get that sort of crap on facebook again, report the person and block them. Tell facebook you're being harassed and they will act VERY quickly.

[TeddyR]

177. Someone who admits

Never having been a Dem complains about the Democratic party? Eh, not convinced. I have a ton of student loans too, and am working to pay them back. Many, many people take on student loan debt to attend college and while we probably could stand to tweak the loan program I don't believe there's much support in the US for free college for all.

[pinebox]

216. Actually there's a lot of support for it

And no I have never been a Dem until Bernie. I don't need to convince you anything. Many take on debt sure but many will never be able to pay it back, ever. Like me. It's time we do what the rest of the world does, free college.

[nc4bo]

199. Peace! And a +1! nt

[AtomicKitten]

211. hear, hear

[Recursion]

212. So, you're admitting you've never been a democrat and complain about "infiltration"

Interesting

[pinebox]

217. Why is that interesting?

I am complaining how the party has been pushed right. Just as the GOP has.

[jfern]

226. Time to kick the right-wing David Brock types out

[raouldukelives]

233. We aren't here by accident. That's for sure.

Our parties leaders decided, as most Americans do, that wealth and fancy parties were more fun than fighting in the cold for the little people.

They still love to talk about fighting for the little people, ad nauseum. They just despise, or I should major benefactors despise, when they actually do it.

Those who live to take orders from pennies will never take seriously any requests from the penniless.

Those who increase the wealth and power of the order givers, increase the continued ignorance of the suffering of our least.

[Ilsa]

234. "Days of entitlement are over" says one tweeted reply.

Somehow, the word "entitlement" has become synonymous with "charity" or "freeloading" or "welfare". It is none of those. How can can peoole be so stupid as to absorb the soundbites and brainwashing of Conservatives?

Happy to kick and Rec your OP.

[pinebox]

237. Thanks!

[Oilwellian]

252. There is also the "personal responsibility" right wing meme in this very thread

The discussion was about the crushing student debt that our young adults are facing before they even start their careers. They willingly took out the loans and it's their "personal responsibility" for paying them back.

That's your typical myopic, right wing way of thinking that doesn't address the problem, and is a clear example of just how far right members of the Democratic party have traveled. Republicans have always rigged the game for the Kleptocrats and spewed "personal responsibility" to those who suffered in the blowback. Democrats, to a degree, were willing to stand up to the very same predatory class. Now we hear take personal responsibility and stop whining about the game we helped Republicans rig against you. Pay your loans and eat your peas.

And of course, the problem is never solved.

[Ilsa]

255. Yep. Either go into debt or

Flip burgers forever at minimum wage. Don't bother having any dreams.

It's astounding that "pro-lifers" will use the argument that some thoughtless woman, through abortion, is going to be killing the fetus that would cure cancer, etc.. But they'll never own up to the fact that keeping people from getting an education is doing the same thing.

[DAngelo136]

238. I think three quotes are apropos in this case

and sums up my political view at this time:

"I'd rather vote for what I want and NOT get it than to vote for what I DON'T WANT and get that."- Eugene V.Debs

"Being "realistic" is the most commonly traveled road to mediocrity"- Will Smith.

Robert Kennedy's quote from George Bernard Shaw's play, "Back To Methuselah"

“You see things; and you say, ‘Why?’ But I dream [of] things that never were; and I say, ‘Why not?’".

[Phlem]

239. What are Republicans dressed in Democratic clothing called?

Last edited Thu Jan 28, 2016, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

The Thirdway.

The total makeup of the DNC is Thirdway. We have blatant thirdway supporters in DU with the "Third way, fresh thinking" picture in its posts but whole lot of other members here whom obviously support the Thirdway. You can tell when they speak.

Bill and Obama are Thirdway and if you can't tell, which I think is not the case, Hillary wants to be the next Thirdway President.

On top of that, the DNC has been promoting political positions to Thirdway politicians since before Bill.

Thirty + years later, a right wing Democratic party emerges.

Bernie is the only way back to a balanced political system.

I can here it now from other DU responders: But but look at all the social change Obama has accomplished and I say of course, how else is one to distinguish between Democrats and Republicans.

In the past, Democrats also worked for the middle class. That is not the case now. If we keep going this Thirdway direction, you'll have all the social change you want as long money keeps going to the 1%. Social change nirvana and being poor, eat that for dinner.

But we can't stand it when a Democrat calls himself a "Social Democrat"

The Dumbing down of America continues on course.

[pinebox]

249. Yes and no

because some are right here too! GOPforSanders



That IMHO is pretty darn awesome!

[George II]

266. I'm curious pinebox. How did you know to edit your post a few minutes AFTER it was alerted, ....

....deleting the section of the post that was alerted upon? How did you know to delete those screen shots before the jurors completed their vote? Very interesting!

Juror #7 may not have seen the screen shots but other jurors did before you had a chance to delete them. Maybe if you didn't know enough to delete the alerted screen shots then Juror #7 may not have thought it was a "bogus alert". By the way, I was NOT the alerter, and you may not realize it but when you edit a post, the previous versions are STILL there!!!

Here are the details of the alert:

I'm sick of the conservatism which has infiltrated the Dem party
www.democraticunderground.com/12511075739

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

COMMENTS

In this first line he says; honestly I have never been a democrat. Then goes on to bash democrats on a democratic site. He uses screen shots of current DU'ers that were posted on DU not an outside site to bash Dems. Can we keep the bashing to the candidates and leave individual DU'ers out of it. Community standards mean something. Or at least they did. Thank you for your consideration.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Jan 27, 2016, 09:56 AM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Opinion...nothing wrong with it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The OP switched his party affiliation and now IS a Democrat. The alerter, I'm glad to say, is not the party gatekeeper. There are no screen shots that I can see that appear to have come from DU or call out current DUers. Bogus alert.

Thank you.

[grntuscarora]

268. I am so with you.

Good rant!