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[bigtree]

This message was self-deleted by its author (bigtree) on Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:15 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[catnhatnh]

1. Why the umm...?

For two out of three the first word spoken is "I"...

[bigtree]

2. that has to be the stupidest defense of his jackass statement that anyone will ever offer.

...the arrogance, egotism, and self-delusion in that statement of his is stunning.

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. Why didn't you make those phrases and words part of your OP?

"jackass statement"
"arrogance"
"egotism"
"self-delusion"

Why weren't those in your OP?

[bigtree]

44. why should they have been?

...is that some sort of rule?

First you feign offense at them, then you want them in the op. Make up your mind.

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. I feigned? Where did I feign? Show me where I feigned. Feign?

My post was straight forward, unlike your OP. You waited until the first reply to say how you REALLY felt, and what you thought.

I feigned? Damn, I didn't mean to feign... I'm still reading my post and trying to find out what about it constitutes feigning. Can you point out to me where I feigned?

[bigtree]

73. first you complain about my opinion I expressed

...then you complain that I buried how I really felt about the statement in the thread.

Make up your mind. Do you want me to start a thread telling folks here how I really feel about Bernie Sanders? I've led with complimentary words for him on many occasion. But if you can't take my criticisms, as well, maybe those efforts were just wasted.

[cherokeeprogressive]

74. Did you just feign?

Fuck, I'm not really sure.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

39. You know what, I was 100% behind you and followed your Ferguson commentary with interest...

But now I'm fucking sick and tired of your Bernie-bashing bullshit!

How about you educate us about the candidate you support (like you did the events in Ferguson!) and promote that candidate's policy positions and stop badmouthing a man who might very well end up being the Democratic nominee for president?

If you can't do that, then you're going to be the lone resident on my ignore list. I'm not going to read your continuous bashing of a good man who doesn't deserve it, whether anyone thinks he can win or not.

[bigtree]

43. yeah, well if I base my politics on Sanders supporters here

...who jumped me, several times, in the most insulting fashion for daring to contradict his statements, Sanders would never get another gesture (as I've made repeatedly) to support him.

Spare me the histrionics. I'm entitled to my opinion without all of the personalizations. That's your own pathetic choice.

And, by the way, I have spent post after post 'educating about my candidate of choice. I don't see ONE post from you on ONE Sanders supporter's thread demanding they do the same. This is one-sided manufactured outrage. Save it.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

45. No YOU save it! I don't care about any of that shit. I'm not bashing Hillary or you so your

retaliation doesn't apply to me and I don't want to see any more of your Bernie bashing bullshit.

So stop it!

OH, and to refute your dubious claim that I haven't told Bernie supporters to chill the fuck out on Hillary: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6767775

[bigtree]

48. no actual defenses on this thread from Sanders supporters

...just personal attacks on me. That's standard here for almost every criticism of his candidacy. In fact, i haven't seen ONE sanders supporter admit he's said or done ANYTHING wrong in his entire career. Amazing political tone-deafness (presumably fingers in the ears).

You stop it. Get it?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

49. If you're getting attacked, it's probably because you're asking for it! YOU STOP IT! Not

everyone that supports Bernie hates Hillary! Not everyone is bashing Hillary or you. So, those of us that aren't doing that shit don't want to see your Bernie bashing.

So, you can stop the bashing of Bernie AND the bashing of you. It's up to you!

[bigtree]

51. No, your behavior is your own responsibility

...take ownership of it.

I'm not going to 'stop' speaking my mind on what these candidates say and do. I'm not going to be shouted down or bullied into silence. If that offends your sensibilities then turn away.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

61. My behavior isn't the subject here, yours is. I'm not getting attacked for attacking Hillary. And

you don't have to stop speaking what's on your mind but you can do it without burning one of our candidates down like dry brush.

I don't have to turn away. I can just place you on ignore. I'd rather not do that and see you acknowledge accept that not all of us deserve to see that level of bashing of our preferred candidate. The language you used is VERY incendiary and it's not called for and when you engage in that level of hate towards Bernie you alienate those of us who don't deserve to see our candidate treated as such.

You realize, don't you, that for every word you type bashing Bernie, that could be a word toward promoting your favored candidate?

I'll tell you like I told NYC_Skip: "I'm a fan of yours...but you need to chill the fuck out. You're talking about the person
who may well end up being our candidate."

Please. You can criticize Bernie all you want. But you could also temper your commentary so that it's not so hot it burns.

[bigtree]

67. bullshit

I made a comparative op pointing out Sanders had mislead his audience about the other candidates. That was immediately responded to with personal attacks, one after another, yours included. You're still at it. You don't have any room to talk down to me about 'tempering my commentary.'

I won't be bullied into silence. I will speak my mind about the way I feel about these candidates' rhetoric and actions.

[Raine1967]

80. This was sarcasm, right?

If you're getting attacked, it's probably because you're asking for it! YOU STOP IT!

Please tell me this was sarcasm.

You know why O'Malley supporters aren't all full on here in GD?

… because of posts like this. What a crappy post.

[Snotcicles]

3. Just when I thought I was getting over my repulsion for Hillary supporters up pops a bigtree.

[bigtree]

4. joke's on you and your personal attack

...I'm not a Hillary supporter, and your candidate said some arrogant, egotistical, self-serving, and delusional shit here.

[Snotcicles]

7. I'll correct it. Make it Sanders Basher's. nt

[bigtree]

11. I haven't seen ONE criticism of Sanders that his supporters have accepted

...and very little in his defense outside of personal attacks like the one you just got away with.

Face it. Not every word out of his lips is sacrosanct and unassailable.

[Snotcicles]

15. It's the inflammatory language you use that repulses me.

It had it's designed effect. So if it is so personal to you alert.

[bigtree]

21. I was just laughing out loud

...my wife asked me what it was, and I told her a poster named 'snotcicles' just said I was repulsive.

Yeah, that just happened.

[Snotcicles]

42. Most find it imagintive and funny. And I want to apologize for hurting your feelings earlier. nt

[bigtree]

50. it is funny

...you can't really be that sensitive to a few discouraging words about a career politician. Seriously.

[Raine1967]

81. Can you elaborate?

Because I think you are making assumptions about the DU'r based on what you wrote.

Bigtree is not for or against Clinton. He has said that he supports Martin O'Malley at this point and time.

[whopis01]

5. That's what so many love about Bernie. He isn't afraid

to make the campaign about the issues.

Kick and rec

[Vattel]

6. Huh? I think you are way over-analyzing some pretty innocuous campaign rhetoric.

[bigtree]

10. How did I over-analyze it by pointing out that it had, indeed been said by the others?

...in as eloquent and as inclusive a manner in which he made his self-serving point.

[Vattel]

14. Calling what he said a "jackass statement"

and saying that "the arrogance, egotism, and self-delusion in that statement of his is stunning" seems to me to be ridiculously over-the-top, but maybe I am missing something.

[bigtree]

22. oh, I thought you actually meant 'over-analyzing'

...you're really just mad that I said mean things about Bernie. Got it.

[Vattel]

64. my bad, I should be nicer.

[Andy823]

8. I also liked this part of O'Malley's speech

"And so, when a child with a world of learning ahead asks who you voted for, I want you to be able to tell that child, “I voted for you.”

When you see a dad sweating through another long shift in order to give his daughter a better future, I want you to be able to tell him, “I voted for you.”

When you see a mom working long hours at two jobs for the dream of sending her son to college, I want you to be able to tell her, “I voted for you.”

[whatchamacallit]

9. It's a catchy hook

Typical campaign rhetoric. All the candidates will probably have some version of "I'm the only one who will say...". Much ado...

[MFrohike]

12. Wow

Everytime I read a post like this, all I can think is that I hope the author of it is getting paid to do it. If not, well, that's pretty sad.

[Cha]

17. Well, sad for you.. you "think" wrong.

[MFrohike]

19. Clearly

It's obvious that parsing campaign speeches on behalf of candidates who've never heard of the parser is a high art and that I should be ashamed for questioning its practitioners. I will attempt to rectify my errors through a thorough regimen of self-criticism. I hope to have corrected this obvious failing soon. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[bigtree]

25. so he didn't actually tell his crowd that the other candidates won't tell them

...their candidacy is about the people who would elect them?

Never happened?

And by the way, it's insulting to read that I'm some paid operative for criticizing him, while you're the one carrying this candidate's bags here. I happen to have a very physically challenging night grocery job that I'm about to depart for. I'll be in the back room in sweltering heat in an hour or so breaking down pallets of groceries. I'll be imagining while I'm doing the back-breaking labor for my low wage that I'm actually a big-time political operative.

[MFrohike]

27. Comedy

If I thought you were paid to write it, I'd say it directly. What I actually said was that if you did it for free, it's pretty sad. I'd personally find that a more damning judgment, but, hey man, to each his own.

[bigtree]

32. oh, so you just insinuated that I was a paid operative

...and no one paid you for these personal attacks?

[MFrohike]

41. No, I was pretty clear

I said I hoped you were being paid because it's sad if you're not. That's not an insinuation that you're being paid, it's an indirect statement that you're engaged in a ridiculous activity. If you didn't understand that much, maybe you shouldn't be out there parsing text. After all, if you couldn't parse the clear intent of what I wrote, it doesn't bode well for more complex writings, now does it?

[bigtree]

54. oh, I get your intent

...it's clear.

Address the op, defend the candidate, by personally attacking my character. Standard defense here.

[MFrohike]

56. Heh

Not your character, your choice of activity. If I'd decided to attack your character, I'd have done just that. I clearly mocked you for parsing a campaign speech. If you're unable to separate your character from the activities you undertake, that's on you, pal.

[bigtree]

23. so, no actual setting the record straight for Bernie?

...got it. He can say any jackass thing he wants but no calling him on it, lest I get accused of being a paid troll.

[MFrohike]

26. No one accused you of being a paid troll

I'd think more highly of the OP if you actually were paid to write it.

[bigtree]

33. no, you just insulted me personally, up and down

...not paid, of course, for this desperate defense of your candidate's jackass statement.

[MFrohike]

40. Up and down?

Clam down, bud. It was a single comment. Maybe you shouldn't try parsing campaign speeches if you don't want to be mocked for it.

By the way, whether or not you believe it, I don't have a candidate. I just think it's ridiculous to parse campaign speeches for any kind of content. They're a notorious fact-free zone. It's the sort of activity that is usually undertaken by people involved in the actual campaigns, not random dudes on the internet. It's a fairly pathetic activity at best, but it's at least understandable when the person doing it has a personal stake, like a job. When there's no personal stake, well, you get the idea.

[bigtree]

55. I'm not your 'bud'

...I'm a 54 year old man who has every right to express my opinion here.

I don't deserve 'mocking' or talking down to for doing that, but you go right on if you think that's appropriate for you.

[MFrohike]

65. Awesome

There's few things I like as much as the dignity defense. Granted, you undermined it a bit with that lame parsing of campaign speeches in the OP, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I have to admire your brazenness. I don't know that I'd combine an argument for my right to speak with a denunciation for my opponent doing exactly the same, but roll with it, pal. It's clearly working for you.

[bigtree]

68. and, I'm certainly not your 'pal'

...roll with that.

[MFrohike]

72. Really?

Are you just trying to tee me up now or is this serious?

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

13. I believe Bernie and O'Malley.

[Snotcicles]

16. +1 nt

[Cha]

18. Thanks bigtree.. Bernie got that one wrong.

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

20. Do you want a count of how many wrongs who did when?

And how people died for those wrongs?

No, I think not.

[bigtree]

24. oh, god

...someone got killed here? Get real, he made a self-serving statement. This from the man who claimed he was above that sort of thing.

The record is clear. ALL the candidates expressed that their run for office was about the people who would elect them, not just the man with the egotistical statement.

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

53. what?

[treestar]

60. Bernie said the others would not say it

He is wrong. They did. Paying attention is a good idea

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

62. Bernie is less wrong than his opponent right now. Pay Attention.

He voted against murder in Iraq.

[Cha]

103. Yes, Bernie made a "self-serving" statement and he's not perfect in other areas and some of his

supporters are going off the deep trying to scrub his slate clean.. with their never ending Predictable, personal attacks.

I know Bernie has a lot of good points but perfect.. no.. and, it will be pointed out and questioned whether the masses on DU want it or not.

[Bonobo]

28. Asinine OP. nt

[AtomicKitten]

29. Good lord, that's weak parsing of a pretty standard stump line.

[ismnotwasm]

30. Great OP

Love it.

[Bonobo]

47. You have no idea how delighted I am to see you putting yourself "out there".

It is like a holy affirmation of all that I already believed.

[JI7]

31. it's one of those things just about everyone says and shouldn't be taken so literally

[bigtree]

34. I think I need a guide

...on what to not 'take literally' from Sanders' rhetoric.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Reaching for the popcorn

this place is well, always guaranteed to offer some real good entertainment.



Make mine with butter, YYYUUUMMM

[Le Taz Hot]

36. May I suggest a hobby?

Other than this one, I mean.

[bigtree]

57. I see you're doing something constructive with your time

[Le Taz Hot]

97. Don't be silly.

You've no idea what I do with my time.

[U4ikLefty]

37. I heard on DU that Bernie is a bigot who humps gunz & eats baby brains!!!

Go Hillary!!1!1!!

[Bonobo]

46. You should delete this OP.

To parse on this level is ridiculous and a bad precedent.

Not to mention intellectually dishonest.

You should delete it.

[bigtree]

58. because you disagree with it?

...that's the standard here?

Spare me that bullshit. You have an ignore button. Use it.

[Bonobo]

66. Wow, you have a short memory. No, it is because I THOUGHT you

were trying to maintain a higher standard and not vomit out garbage like this.

And that is what it is. Pure garbage.

You called me a class act in a PM to me for deleting an OP you asked me to.

I wish I could return the compliment.

[bigtree]

77. that was about politically exploiting murders

...and you think this is analogous to that?

Get real. This is hyper-inflated defense of a political candidate through personal attacks on a critic. Same craven effort.

[Bonobo]

82. I'm afraid you have lost any chance for respect from me. nt

[Tea Potty]

104. What on Earth is going on DU?

Why is DU suddenly filled with all these nasty Bernie posts parsing speeches to spread disinfo?

This is beyond tasteless. Are the billionaires that scared?

[sufrommich]

52. God, the rage over this fairly innocuous

OP is amazing. Some of the people who bash Obama and Hillary all day every day here sure have thin skins.

[Bonobo]

69. Bigtree said of Sanders" ."..the arrogance, egotism, and self-delusion in that statement..."

That is "fairly innocuous"?

[sadoldgirl]

59. This is absolutely silly

I won't use another word that comes to mind.
Bernie is trying to tell people that democracy will
not and cannot work without the participation of
the citizens, and that includes a heck of a lot more
than just voting.
I am not sure that people grasp that he is asking
of them to start to take part in the low paying
local governments jobs, but that is his intention.

If you find that arrogant, try again!

FAIL!

[bigtree]

71. it's great oratory

...except for the part where he says the others won't tell voters that. He's obviously mistaken.

[sadoldgirl]

75. Well, I have not heard any of the other

candidates call for a peaceful kind of revolution, in which
all citizens should take part in.
But I am sure you will let me know.
Inspite of your over the top downer of Bernie,
I shall still respect O'Malley

[bigtree]

78. I posted similar statements about running for the people who would vote for them

...calling for a 'peaceful revolution?'

I really don't see much difference in anything other than the way he phrased it. All of the candidates have pledged to act on behalf of the people.

[sadoldgirl]

84. You still don't get it, I think

Acting on behalf of the people is quite different
than asking the people to get to work to act on
behalf of themselves. May be he expects too
much of most Americans, but that is his main
theme, as well as trying to give them the reasons
why they need to do it.

We will see. I still will vote for him in my caucus,
even though I have my doubts that the people
will really heed his call. It is so easy after the elections
to say "I have done my job, now it is up to the
politicians".

[Jester Messiah]

63. Trash the thread, put OP on ignore.

Peace is restored.

[Separation]

76. FFS

This OP is like a parent telling their child, "I love you to the moon and back.' Then immediately being called out by you in a passive aggressive way saying that its impossible.

I guess what I am saying then that this OP is childish? Yep, I guess I do. The same as the Hillary rally at Roosevelt Park OP. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026767673

[bigtree]

79. I love the way defenders of Sanders throw Hillary into the mix

...as if that excuses their personal attacks on anyone daring to question or criticize Bernie.

Talk about 'passive aggressive.'

[TM99]

85. Pssst....dude....

you mentioned Hillary in the OP.

Therefore, if you are going to attempt to compare O'Malley, Sanders, and Clinton, you might have to be prepared for, you know, statements about Hillary.

[merrily]

83. EVERY candidate says that kind of thing. At the firefighters union event, O'Malley stated that no

candidate at that even had mention federal funding or collective bargaining.

I don't know about collective bargaining, but one of the news reports about that event included a quote from Bernie about federal funding. THE VERY SAME EVENING, WITH O'MALLEY IN ATTENDANCE.

Still, O'Malley got the best reception of the event and I I congratulate him on giving an important speech that spoke to the concerns of his audience and gave it in such a way that resonated with his audience.

I hope that, at some point, DU get that nitpicking Bernie Sanders and digging up hit pieces about him to post is not accomplishing a damn thing besides being embarrassing.

This country has much more important needs than whether O'Malley heard Bernie Sanders say something about funding that very same evening or if Bernie knows every word of every speech ever made by every other candidate in the race. Most of them are saying the same things Bernie has been saying for 40 years anyway. Small wonder there is overlap.

Just because mass media obsesses over that kind of trivial shit and breadcrumb sins doesn't mean trivial shit is important or even relevant.

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

87. --Most of them are saying the same things Bernie has been saying for 40 years --

You got that right. Maybe some are just waking up and I can grant them that. But yes, Bernie is the compass for most of it and it saddens me that he is being smeared into some kind of ill meaning ogre by the Camp that should know better - this will not work, it didn't work in '08 and it will not work now. Stop the lies and talk about the condition of the people of this country and how to improve it and don't go Kardashian for gawds sakes.

[merrily]

89. Campaign rhetoric is based in some measure on how issues poll. Polls try to

determine what will resonate with voters. What happens after the election is anyone's guess.

I believe that O'Malley and Sanders have been sticking relatively closely to what they've always said.

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

90. Steadfast and true, yes they have been.

Unusual birds.

[merrily]

92. I hope and believe that one of them will be the nominee and will win the general.

Obviously, my preference is Bernie, but I would not cast any asparagus at O'Malley.

Unless, of course, he was really hungry.

[SaranchaIsWaiting]

93. Lol! that got me laughing out loud.

Now I am at a loss what to cast at O'Malley in foodstuffs. Not tomatoes, for sure. Maybe I can boil up some good cabbage, real soft like and cast that at him along with a jar of Beano. It's good roughage!

[JustAnotherGen]

108. Small point

O'Malley hasn't been "saying" - he's been doing. He kept winning bigger jobs - because he was doing things.

I make the point because he appeals to me based on his step by step, inch by inch approach.

That said - the only candidate I'm going to have a hard time canvassing for in the GE is Clinton.

[herding cats]

88. Just to be fair to O'Malley, that's not what he said.

The actual quote was:

"There are two very important things that you did not hear from any of today’s Republican speakers," O’Malley said to the firefighters who were in attendance for the IAFF’s Presidential Forum. "One is a commitment to collective bargaining, and the second is a commitment to increasing funding for public safety."
http://prospect.org/authors/cooper-hewell

He was attacking the proper people in his statement.

[merrily]

91. Okay, the article I read may have paraphrased that. Sincere apologies, but, to be fair to merrily,

I did praise him anyway on what I thought was both relevant and important for that event.

And that was my point, that we try to focus on what is relevant and important.

However, I very much appreciate the correction, because accuracy is important. I don't want to say anything about any candidate that is not consistent with the facts.

[herding cats]

94. For what it might be worth, I didn't read you as trying to bash O'Malley at all.

I was just clarifying the words he used in that speech, because they were important to the excellent point he was making.

If I didn't know where to find them, I wouldn't have been able to give you the exact quote. It was paraphrased, as you said, at most places. Which is a shame; It's an excellent quote.

[merrily]

95. It never occurred to me that you were trying to bash me and I do very much appreciate the

correction.

PLEASE continue to do that whenever you think I've misstated any fact at all. I hate doing that. As the saying goes, I'm entitled to my own opinions, but I am not entitled to my own facts. And I don't want to misstate.

[jmarston1914r]

86. This is another reason why I will be voting for Sanders in 2016.

Unlike so many other politicians, he is actually in touch with the needs of the American people. I wish him great success in his presidential campaign. God knows this country is in dire need of a leader like him.

[William769]

96. bigtree I think I'm falling in love!

[Autumn]

98. There's a bit more to what he said than what you selected, he told us that

we people would have to create a movement to take back the power of our government. Just voting for someone isn't enough.

“It is about creating a political movement of millions of people who stand up and loudly and proudly proclaim that this nation and our government belongs to all of us and not just a handful of billionaires.

Here's that whole statement from his Denver speech.

“Let me begin by telling you what no other candidate for president is going to tell you,” Sanders said. “And that is that this campaign is not about me, it's not about Hillary Clinton, it's not about Jeb Bush. It's not about any other candidate. This campaign is about you, your kids and your parents. It is about creating a political movement of millions of people who stand up and loudly and proudly proclaim that this nation and our government belongs to all of us and not just a handful of billionaires."

It's campaigning, they will all say stuff.

[morningfog]

99. Thanks for the rest of the quote.

[Autumn]

100. No other candidate told us that we the people would have to create

the movement to take back control of our government, so in that respect Bernie was right. The anger over that one sentence seems OTT.

[NanceGreggs]

105. No other candidate?

What did you think was the thrust of Obama's campaign in 2008? What did you think, "Yes, WE can" was all about?

What did you think, "WE are the ones WE'VE been waiting for" meant?

The problem was that the minute Obama was elected, "we" became "him" for many here. "Why isn't HE doing something about this? Why isn't HE achieving everything he said he'd do?"

This need for Sanders supporters to believe that he is the first politician to promote the idea that it takes "the people" to effect change is absolutely startling.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your country." I guess you've never heard of that one either?

Bernie is very adept at highlighting the importance of the wheel - there's no need to pretend he invented it.

[Cha]

107. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your country." Well done, Nance.

"Bernie is very adept at highlighting the importance of the wheel - there's no need to pretend he invented it"

There's no need for him to pretend, either.

[morningfog]

109. You, too, ignored the part about taking the country back from the billionaires.

That is the key distinction. That is what Bernie says that other candidates are not and that was the thrust of his statement.

I also wouldn't read a current candidate's statement on their position and their candidacy as comparing themself to every candidate who has ever ran for presideicncy.

[TM99]

101. Of course a Clinton supporter

truncated the quote to massage a pointed smear.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

102. You. Nailed. It.

I missed that on the first pass and thought Bernie had made a gaffe. Because *of course* they all say it's about the rhetorical "you" (meaning the listener).

But I think Bernie is differentiating that this is not a conventional campaign, but the call for a movement to change the course of history. Not only to repudiate and end Reaganism but to ask us to evolve to the point where we as a nation (indeed as a species) overthrow the elites and establish a culture which is sustainable. As opposed to the capitalistic system which is destroying the planet and causing a species extinction crisis.

I have seen no other leader like this in my lifetime. I think maybe MLK and RFK were headed there, but that was a simpler time. My respect for Bernie keeps growing.

[Betty Karlson]

106. Next time try to write down the full quote please.

Mr. Sanders tried to juxtapose voting for a candidate and working together for reform. Delegation of authority versus co-operation.

[bigtree]

110. I'm going to take Bonobo's advice and end this thread. It's a mess

...and I'll take responsibility for that by deleting it.

I'm sorry if I'm precluding anyone from having their say...