General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan we please put the discussion, whether the US is a police-state, to rest?
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/14/3158301/kelly-thomas-murder-verdict/Police beating someone to death while he is begging for his life? Not a crime.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/12/05/3023911/unarmed-man-blamed-police-shooting-times-square/
Police hitting bystanders while shooting at unarmed man running away? He gets charged with assault.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/11/06/2902591/police-shooting-unarmed-man/
Drunk cop empties magazine into unarmed man he is standing over? Not a crime.
And for the apologists: Yes, those are a few bad apples. And there is a system in place to ensure that they get put back in the box with the other apples after every time they killed someone.
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)some people don't "unlearn" that kind of treatment of other human beings...
Iggo
(47,558 posts)They're the best!
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)of a stadium and another was for a DUI. He was not fired for either incident. He just recently resigned. There is no accountability for cops. They can pretty much do whatever they want.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)What about that friend of the Boston bombers who was shot by the police while they were questioning him in his home?
One cop said, he charged at them unarmed.
One cop said, he charged at them, using a pipe as a club.
One cop said, he charged at them with a knife.
Of course, their use of lethal force was deemed entirely justified afterwards.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...or it's maybe something different, not easily described by such simple hyperbole.
There is no template for defining a police state. And you're living in one.
Lost_Count
(555 posts)... because there's no "template."
Gosh that sure is convenient...
A person that doesn't have an axe to grind would realize that in a system with millions of living breathing humans in it you are going to have extreme behavior at both ends of the bell curve.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Police states don't just target people willy-nilly. They exist to intimidate "undesirables" and when people are more than willing to let that happen, they can expand their powers.
Anti-capitalist, socialist, or anarchist? Undesirable.
Drug user? Undesirable.
Anti-war? Undesirable.
Non-white? Undesirable.
So please do tell minority communities, Occupy, and communities caught in the drug war that there's no such thing as a police state.
FatBuddy
(376 posts)there are "hard" and "soft" systems of totalitarian government.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)Sheldon Wolin came up with the inverted form, from Wikipedia:
Whereas in Nazi Germany the state dominated economic actors, in inverted totalitarianism, corporations through political contributions and lobbying, dominate the United States, with the government acting as the servant of large corporations. This is considered "normal" rather than corrupt.[7]
While the Nazi regime aimed at the constant political mobilization of the population, with its Nuremberg rallies, Hitler Youth, and so on, inverted totalitarianism aims for the mass of the population to be in a persistent state of political apathy. The only type of political activity expected or desired from the citizenry is voting. Low electoral turnouts are favorably received as an indication that the bulk of the population has given up hope that the government will ever help them.[8]
While the Nazis openly mocked democracy, the United States maintains the conceit that it is the model of democracy for the whole world.[9] Wolin writes:
Inverted totalitarianism reverses things. It is all politics all of the time but a politics largely untempered by the political. Party squabbles are occasionally on public display, and there is a frantic and continuous politics among factions of the party, interest groups, competing corporate powers, and rival media concerns. And there is, of course, the culminating moment of national elections when the attention of the nation is required to make a choice of personalities rather than a choice between alternatives. What is absent is the political, the commitment to finding where the common good lies amidst the welter of well-financed, highly organized, single-minded interests rabidly seeking governmental favors and overwhelming the practices of representative government and public administration by a sea of cash.[10]
LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)I wish people would wake up from the dream world they're living in and see that.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)thanks. It puts it all together in one concise package.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)But yes, I found it a very simple explanation for many things at once. And doubly so if you also watch https://archive.org/details/TheCenturyOfTheSelf and combine Big Brother's information reach with the manipulation of the mass unconscious.
And add in The Shock Doctrine after that.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)what do you think would have happened to them?
How about someone in a NYC Starbucks doing the same thing in 2014?
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)...at this time. But if you don't mind waiting until I do later today, I'll attempt to illustrate why we are a creeping police state and that we don't necessarily have to be to the point of being dragged out of Berlin coffee shops just yet in order to exist in a "police state".
If we just want to adhere to the Wikipedia definition posted elsewhere in this thread, and that there can be and are no other levels of police state except the one that drags your ass out of a coffee shop for saying the wrong thing, then we may as well end the discussion right here.
plus, an NYC starbucks?
if they it loud enough, I'm sure someone would call the cops.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)"Someone in Starbucks said loudly that this is a police state? We'll dispatch an officer right away!"
the ones dressed like soldiers with automatic rifles.
yeah, those ones.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The "police state" thing is ridiculous.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Though there do seem to be serious issues with police in some locations, we aren't a police state (yet)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)about the insidiousness of Police States and how it is not at all necessary to go after everyone who makes a negative comment about them. Talk to people who in live in NYC and who are minorities and you will learn a little about how it works.
'When the people are afraid of the government it is a police state, when the government is afraid of the people, it is a democracy.'
Yes, I changed it a little. Minorities in NYC know they have to be very, very careful even while walking to school with their in plain sight. When a law abiding citizen has to fear going about their business out of fear of being 'stopped and frisked' simply because they ARE a minority, it IS a police state mentality.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Is this kind of judicial process, that challenges the authorities, a hallmark of a "police state"?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)as a result of that ruling? We have plenty of laws here, including the Constitution itself. They look great on paper, but I haven't seen any consequences for egregious violations of the law by some of our top leaders, Bush et al, eg. In fact the opposite is true.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)In fact, in her order, she went to great pains to state specifically that she was NOT ordering an end to the practice, but was merely instituting additional oversight of it. She called for, among other things, an independent judicial monitor to oversee the NYPD's implementation of the practice and for police officers to wear lapel-mounted cameras to record their interactions with the public. And in any case, that order was ultimately stayed by the Court of Appeals. Get your facts straight!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)implemented the program as police chief.
plus ca change
tblue37
(65,391 posts)They develop by stages, progressively encroaching on the rights and freedom of the citizens, who, as a book about the rise of the Nazi state in Germany explains, "thought they were free."
SamKnause
(13,107 posts)You will get no argument from me.
I think it is terrifying.
I try to keep my family up to date on this subject.
None of my family members are criminals.
They have no reason to fear the police.
I discuss as many cases of police brutality, unjustified killings, SWAT raids gone wrong, illegal body cavity searches etc.
I want them to know that the police can not be trusted.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)cover the police. That will tell you much.
LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)Ron Green
(9,822 posts)they'll undergo to reconcile the militarized SWAT cops with "Officer Friendly."
jsr
(7,712 posts)
Orrex
(63,213 posts)Let me get back to you on that.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)chest-deep on our way to the examples you give, you're gravely fooling yourself and promoting that other do the same.
All we'll need to reach the point of no return is a rethug super-majority.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)see, the thing is, I don't have to bend to your definition of a police state. I know what I see and just because it hasn't reached the level of DPRK or the former Soviet Union, doesn't mean it doesn't exist at a lesser level.
We should be very wary of a republicon super-majority.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)The way you're using it now, as a sort of back-of-the-napkin calculation, it can be argued that we've always been a police state, at a greater or lesser level any any given time.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Orrex
(63,213 posts)In other words, "stay tuned."
Suffice it to say that when we are dealing with the specter of looming authoritarian rule, it is in our interest to define terms carefully and not dabble in hyperbole. A citizen of North Korea, afraid even to whisper a criticism of the government while seated at his own dinner table, lives under very different conditions than a person in the US who faces a statistically miniscule chance of being tasered to death by an asshole cop. It seems disingenuous at least to hide behind an artificially broad definition solely for the thrill of describing our own country as a "police state."
I await your more precise definition.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)the spectrum colors Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo and Violet.
Now if "police state" means "violet" like most people think it does, then we are clearly not there.
But some people seem to claim a slippery slope and that a society which is at RED and is supposedly creeping towards violet can already be called violet even though it isn't violet - yet.
In other words, I cried wolf six hours ago, and there isn't a wolf here yet, but if you just wait, six months or maybe six years, a wolf will be along and threaten the sheep and then I will be able to say "I told you so, neener neener".
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)A totalitarian state is an extreme form of a police state. We don't have one of those here, yet, although we certainly have the tools in place to turn one on with little additional effort.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)dictatorship, and they have less fear of THEIR police than many Americans, particularly minorities, have of theirs. In fact they have no fear at all of the police, unless they are doing something wrong. Why did you include Moscow in that analogy?
Orrex
(63,213 posts)Intended as a counterpoint to what I see as an over-eagerness to identify the US as a police state.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to Russia which has made progress, if for no other reason than to be able to participate in Western Capitalism. Not saying their motives are pure.
Watch footage of the US response to Occupy Wall St, see the thousands of arrests, the brutal treatment of unarmed citizens both on the streets and after being jailed.
At the same time this was happening in the US, there were massive protests in Russia against Putin that went on for days. Some of the Russian Protesters who were arrested managed to film themselves in police vans, laughing, joking, unshackled and obviously not fearful at all. By contrast OWS protesters, including JOURNALISTS and even a few elected officials were roughed up while in custody and reports of cruel treatment, of women who were not allowed to go to the bathroom eg, not provided with medical treatment even though their injuries in some cases were life threatening.
Putin protesters seemed a whole lot safer than OWS protesters and many around the world were struck by the contrast.
Putin is nothing if not smart and it's likely he was lenient on the protesters to demonstrate the contrast, who knows, but the UN Rappateur on Human Rights did not feel compelled to intervene during the Putin protests while attempting to do so here as the brutality on a daily basis against OWS, including elderly women, disabled protesters etc was alarming and no one in this government lifted a finger to stop it.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The definition is problematic, especially if you consider other nations.
Your point upthread about this arguably always having been a police state, valid. The police have been used against labor for over a century. Against protestors of all sorts. The Bonus Army, etc.
So by some standard, sure. But I think the current use of 'police state' here refers to the militarization of the police, and subsequent whitewashing of incidents of police brutality, or over-reach that results in clear demonstrable harm.
A possibly drunk man (admitted drinking) empting 16 rounds into a guy on the pavement, holding a cell phone, the 3 fatal shots into his back, getting no-billed/no prosecution...
That is a frightening symptom. Truly frightening. Maybe the description of 'police state' in the classic sense like Russia/Soviet era, is perhaps over-stated hyperbole... But there are symptoms. Very significant symptoms to consider. Like police working with corporations to stifle protestors over Keystone. That's pretty frightening.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)Meshes nicely with your other reply downthread. Well stated.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Or even a valid response, IMHO. Our standards have been our own, for a very long time, and it is possible to evaluate whether those standards are slipping, without extending cover from unrelated nations outside the scope of our own police policies.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)On DU, the term is wonderfully elastic and serves a wide range of agendas and sensibilities. I would be interested to learn a solid definition that is consistent both with the real world and with DU's use of the term.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I would look to symptoms I mentioned upthread such as:
Sovereign Immunity that shields police officers from criminal prosecution in the case of even wildly blatant acts of violence.
Police working with corporations to stifle non-violent protestors. To infiltrate their ranks. Report back to the corporations. Move to curtail protests.
Militarization, easy and over-used access to military hardware, armor, weapons, and incorporation of overwhelming tactics. The 'when all you have is a hammer' condition.
Over-use of militarized no-knock warrants for non-violent suspects.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)I submit that most of those criteria have been met for many decades in the US, at least for certain regions and certain demographics. Not that this excuses them, but it highlights the fact that there is nothing new under the sun, and that those in power will tend to exert disproportionate power to remain in power.
In short, I find use of the term "police state" to be somewhat ineffective. Your quick, concise summation is actually greatly superior to the term itself, because you actually define your concerns, rather than relying on a word that has taken on the air of artificial propaganda.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Granted that was the NG, not the police, but they were acting in a law enforcement capacity at the time... Things changed in response to the protests and outrage.
I don't see much outrage today, so I think, at least personally, for me, it becomes something like a 'police state' when there is a general acceptance of the conditions I mentioned. It takes a VERY egregious act, like the shooting of Oscar Grant. And that wasn't even a strong/broad reaction, it was highly localized.
But that's just my personal definition. Not just the presence of JBT's, or the like, but a general social acceptance of that condition.
I do agree, the term has lost much of its meaning/power over the years. And certainly, the label becomes laughable when you contrast us to North Korea, as bad as our problems are. So, thank you for raising that point. Context and contrast and definitions matter.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)This line of argument is a staple for the corporate propaganda brigade. You should be ashamed to repeat it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014687526#post34
We are better than North Korea!
Our corporate media makes sure we know it!
Strip searches? Mass surveillance? We should be GRATEFUL!!!!11!!!
Someday, I'd like to see a stream of stories from Norway, Sweden, New Zealand....
Wouldn't it be nice to compare ourselves, once in a while, with the countries we SHOULD be comparing ourselves to?
Orrex
(63,213 posts)In part because it reveals that you didn't actually read any of the discussion that followed.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 14, 2014, 06:44 PM - Edit history (2)
our mass surveillance state targeted at citizens, militarized police departments, federally coordinated and militarized responses to peaceful protest, targeting of protesters for surveillance, criminalization of investigative journalism and abuse of the Espionage Act, persecution of whistleblowers and journalists, fabrication of evidence trails to arrest Americans using NSA information, sexual blackmail using NSA information, suspension of habeas corpus, indefinite detention...
The federal government has systematically targeted Occupy Wall Street protesters for surveillance.....and not *only* surveillance, as we now know that the brutal police assaults on Occupy protesters were also federally coordinated. The federal government has partnered with Wall Street and built taxpayer funded surveillance centers in Manhattan to allow *Wall Street itself* to surveil protesters. And that is just the outrageous tip of a hideous proto-fascistic iceberg. The US Department of Defense is working with corporations to train police to treat peaceful protesters as terrorism suspects. Individual Americans are being given ratings of their potential terrorism threat and need for further scrutiny based on protest activity or political grumbling (see below). And the NSA's sweeping up of private communication is being used to chill investigative journalism and persecute journalists who challenge this corruption.
Your flippant response deserved the reply it received. Yes, they are building a police state. They are subverting our tax dollars and government agencies to crush political dissent and any other perceived dangers to the ongoing Wall Street purchase and corruption of our government.
Comparing the US to North Korea in an attempt to minimize these vicious, sustained assaults to our freedom and our Constitution is a propaganda tactic that you should recognize before you repeat it. Our corporate media compares this country incessantly with some of the most repressive regimes on earth. Why? Because the increasingly authoritarian state they are constructing cannot tolerate comparison with the democratic nations we *should* be comparing ourselves to.
NSA, DEA fabricating evidence trails to imprison Americans using spying.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023406605
2011: Wall Street firms spy on protesters with police in tax-funded center
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023286585
OUTRAGEOUS: Our Tax Money Funds Gov Surveillance Center In Lower Manhattan--& Wall St Is Part Of It!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2178769
Report Details How Counter Terrorism Apparatus Was Used to Monitor Occupy Movement Nationwide
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12527647
NSA Monitors Porn Habits To Discredit 'Radicalizers'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024099994
How FBI Monitored Occupy Movement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101651867
FBI started surveillance of Occupy before it occupied
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10022930860
Wall Street Protesters Complain of Police Surveillance
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101618930
Whoop, There It Is... 'Evidence Homeland Security Coordinated Occupy Crackdown' -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002462465
ACLU discovers FBI is labeling peace activists as 'potential terrorists'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4500788
Why is FBI Manufacturing Reasons to Arrest Occupy Protesters, Ignoring White Supremacist Violence
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12522821
DHS Tracked Occupy Wall Street to 'Control Protesters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101463537
'Occupy' crackdowns coordinated with federal law enforcement officials
http://www.examiner.com/top-news-in-minneapolis/were-occupy-crackdowns-aided-by-federal-law-enforcement-agencies
FBI uses new powers to bug anti-war groups
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x237625
ACLU: FBI instructs police to suppress peaceful protests
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x253574
Ridiculous FBI list: You might be a domestic terrorist if ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1790765
"Clear evidence of collusion between TransCanada and the federal government assisting local police to unlawfully monitor and harass political protestors”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023049508
DoD Training Manual: Protests are "Low-Level Terrorism"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100227662
ACLU: On revenge and the NSA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023491532
On the Espionage Act charges against Edward Snowden Glenn Greenwald
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023066929
US Uses Espionage Act To Convict Manning Using Words Added In 1990: "with a computer"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023375845
Fed Court: Just changed interpretation of Espionage Act to cover leaks that are NOT Harmful To USA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023365713
Obama's abuse of the Espionage Act is modern-day McCarthyism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023413935
NY Times: White House Uses Espionage Act to Silence Employees, Press
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101616764
Obama Has Charged More Under Espionage Act Than All Other Presidents Combined
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023080388
A Nation of "Suspects"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5011487
http://www.truth-out.org/nation-suspects/1314810046
That magic word, "terrorism." The government's identification of those needing further scrutiny
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022730456#post13
Do You Like Online Privacy? You May Be a Terrorist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002257966
"Arrogant complaining about airport security is one indicator Transportation Security Administration officers consider when looking for possible criminals and terrorists"
http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/04/15/tsa.screeners.complain/
Top US counterterrorism official: drone critics are Al Qaeda enablers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002279862
.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)Not at all.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)n/t
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Are you really THAT desperate?
Some will argue whether or NOT we are a "Police State",
but no one can deny that we are headed in that direction,
and are CLOSER to North Korea today
than we were in 2000.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)excessive use of force, big time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I think it's more indicative of a brutal and violent culture overall rather than specifically limiting that same violence and that same brutality to one or another specific demographics.
If we're raffling off tickets for the entertainment of killing an endangered animal, if we're shooting people in the movie theaters because they text, if we're killing young neighbors for walking home from a 7-11 with Skittles and tea in hand, if washed-up rock stars joke about killing people because of little more than place of residence, then it seems to me the problem is inclusive of vast swaths of citizens.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Regular citizens seem to kill in quite large numbers without the police or other government officials being involved.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)
Faryn Balyncd
(5,125 posts)Well, perhaps the kind that think the appropriate response to someone texting his daughter during a movie preview is to shoot him (through his wife's protective hand.)
randome
(34,845 posts)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I don't know what kind of character we select. I imagine many people will pretend they do, though.
I do however, know that we live in a culture which glorifies brutality, rationalizes violence as entertainment, and allows us to shoot kids walking home from the store.
Faryn Balyncd
(5,125 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Swede Atlanta
(3,596 posts)The states, exercising the general police power, have created Stalin-styled police and law enforcement agencies. They routinely engage in unlawful surveillance and police brutality. The state judiciary has bought into the new "world order" and routinely just give them a slap on the wrist or organize a parade to promote their brutality.
The federal government engages in routine extradition and extraordinary rendition. I have no doubt this has continued under Obama. The federal government sucks up everything they can with respect to your private communications including telephone calls, e-mails, browsing history, tweets, text messages and probably every letter you have ever sent in the mail.
Further they engage in systematic brutality against anyone who would dare challenge their authority. They tortured Manning. They would double-down on torture on Snowden. They hate whistleblowers. Despite any attempts in Congress to rein them in they would continue their illegal, immoral and unconstitutional attacks on the American people. They are a government unto themselves. They are not unlike the computer in 2001 A Space Odyssey where the computer will do everything in self-defense. The people who work at the NSA are sociopaths that see themselves as the saviors of the universe.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Because an American doesn't even have to speak out against anyone for that to happen.
frylock
(34,825 posts)
Hope you are well.
frylock
(34,825 posts)how are things down at the Trenton Tar Pits these days?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)ordinary citizens to spy on and turn in their neighbors and other fellow citizens until it got to the point that even saying something under your breath against the government or government officials was extremely dangerous. Of course, saying something on the phone or via post office mail (email didnt really yet exist) was almost guaranteed to be heard and to result in swift reprisal.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)In 2014 USA, we are also always under surveillance. But somehow, "it's different"?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and everyone in his government, and the entire NYPD, until you are blue in the face, and nothing whatsoever will happen to you.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)At its peak, the STASI never had anything like the reach that the NSA does.
Again, "but this time, it's different!" is somewhat cold comfort.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Often things do happen to people that do that sort of thing. Granted, it depends on circumstances, but. for example, a police officer in Baltimore openly told me early in the invasion of Iraq that if you protest the war in Baltimore you should expect to get hurt. And when some cyclists did decide to peacefully protest the war in Baltimore, some of them were knocked off their bikes by officers. So I guess he wasn't bluffing.
Especially when the state perceives a threat, the citizen's individual rights tend to disappear in a cloud of smoke.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)By the standards used here, the U.S. was always a police state. The majority of countries in the world, including Western Europe, would be considered police states as well.
cali
(114,904 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)WatermelonRat
(340 posts)Things aren't getting worse. We're now more aware of our blemishes and warts thanks to the internet and 24 hour news, but in general, more things are improving than not.
I'm not completely naive about police misconduct and overreach of authority. I view them as worthwhile issues to confront. I simply don't think portraying them as being akin to the sort of repression seen in the USSR/N. Korea/China is accurate or helpful.
cali
(114,904 posts)at least one hopes you do. ergo your attempt to associate me with Glenn Beck is a total failure and a cheap rhetorical device worthy of nothing but contempt.
this isn't merely about police misconduct.
Oh, and for the love of logic, rat, simply because things are not nearly to the degree of N. Korea, doesn't mean that we don't live in a borderline police state.
.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)I still maintain, however, that the notion that things are getting worse and moving in such a direction - either as part of an intentional plot or as a slippery slope - is false. We get a much closer look at all sorts of ugly business these days, and by all means we should confront it, but we should also maintain a sense of scale and perspective regarding it.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)we live in a corporate controlled country. but it's amusing to see some of you deny this and what it entails.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I wish everyone would get on the same page about which particular iron fist is brutally subjugating me. Is the Soup Nazi involved?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)which may solve the apparent contradiction:
https://archive.org/details/TheCenturyOfTheSelf
It's several overly interesting hours in total, but I'd reccommend it for anyone without any doubt. Even just to become an aware consumer.
Kurovski
(34,655 posts)I've begun watching/listening. And it's bookmarked for a full viewing.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)is what, then?
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)It is the result of generally well meaning people on all levels losing perspective, proportion, and sense of scale, an error I don't intend to mirror in my assessment. I hope to see such things reversed, and I believe that a measured approach is more effective in pursuing that goal than hyperbole of an imminent police state.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Holy exaggeration Batman!
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's like they are trying to make liberals and the left look ridiculous.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I am one of those who believes it is just a few bad apples. But I couldn't agree with this more. "And there is a system in place to ensure that they get put back in the box with the other apples after every time they killed someone."
The system set up in law enforcement needs to fundamentally change.
frylock
(34,825 posts)are the good apples the cops that turn a blind eye to the brutalities meted out by the bad apples?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)FatBuddy
(376 posts)or the swat team with a no knock felony warrant that invaded someone's house.
the wrong house.
really? I bet he covers his mouth when he coughs too. where are the good apples in the context of my original question?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)if the USA qualifies.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Republicans/Conservatives tend to do this and it ultimately causes these terms to lose their potency.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)alato
(43 posts)...
period.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)And that gets no-billed by a grand jury?
Wow.
In WA state, we hold police officers to a HIGHER standard of justification than joe whomever on the street, to establish a reasonable fear/justification to shoot.
Progressive dog
(6,904 posts)since none of those police forces have jurisdiction here in New York.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts) & R
William769
(55,147 posts)A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.
The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state
Please take your tripe elsewhere or at the very least call it what it is.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)because the truth is MUCH uglier.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)phony detention camp flagpoles and whatever death camps you are talking about mean nothing compared to todays
true stories.
look away.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And so apparently, the Tea Party screaming about FEMA death panels was just a government created diversion from the real police state.
The world some of you live in is fascinating.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Not to worry...We're better than Romania in terms of child poverty.
Silent3
(15,218 posts)Do we have a lot of out of control cops? Yes.
Do too many get away with crazy shit that leaves you gasping at how they can get away with it? Yes.
But, as numerous as these stories are, what percentage of the police force acts this way? In a population of 300,000,000, how many people are subjected to these abuses? Whether that number is small or large, are the effects of the cases that do happen so chilling that a large portion of the population has been cowed in response, fearing what might happen if they "step out of line"?
How much do you fear posting this public forum that you think this is a police state, or criticisms of politicians and powerful business people?
It's a matter of degrees, but if I were forced to make a hard, yes/no distinction between whether we're a police state or not, I'd have to go with "no", because, while many terrible things do happen, people still exercise quite a bit of freedom without fear of reprisal in this country.
In fact, a lot of young people do this to an incredibly stupid degree, posting pictures and videos of criminal behavior online, things for which they should expect to pay a penalty, yet they do so without much fear. In what I'd call a "real" police state, even crazy, immature teenagers would very seldom be so bold.
To me, a "police state" isn't about police brutality and police misconduct so much as it's about a large and systematic regime of repression, mainly serving the purpose to stifle the least bit of political dissent. We've got plenty of real problems in the US -- trigger-happy, increasingly militarized police among them -- but we still are quite a way from what I think about as a police state.
reddread
(6,896 posts)lets not forget the deals with drug cartels who litter their streets with headless corpses and ours with helpless victims.
can a crime syndicate like those racketeers in Washington represent also be a police state?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024326388#post7
Our government is deeply, deeply and bipartisanly, corrupt.
reddread
(6,896 posts)right?
here's the deal for the breathlessly faithful-
we CANNOT have anything without justice.
not that retribution shit the crooks dish out,
the justice Peace and Equity require.
focus, and dont settle.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)We are working against a stupid but relentless propaganda machine.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)Can't deny that there are some really crazy things going on with some cops out there and we really need to take a long, hard look at police tactics and procedures and clean things up. However, if you're talking about average citizens living in a totalitarian sort of "police state", I disagree that we are there. There are abuses and overreaches and we need to scale back the breadth and scope of our surveillance state and some other disturbing trends but I fail to see the comparison between USA 2014 and Nazi Germany, the USSR, or even modern day China or North Korea. Last I checked, most of us are able to go about our daily business without worrying too much about being hauled off to jails for years on end without a trial, randomly executed, and/or being sent to "re-education" centers.
reddread
(6,896 posts)fuck em
Rex
(65,616 posts)YES we are somewhat forced to show ID when we move around the country and no doubt there has been political retribution toward popular parties...but to be a full fledged police state, we need a closed government and an executive that is indistinguishable from the secret police force (that we don't have) that monitors and controls the behavior of the general populace.
I would say we live in a plutocracy, no doubt...but we got a ways to go before we live in the classical definition of a police state.
reddread
(6,896 posts)they failed to GET IN LINE, so they got whats coming.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)the difference is in degree.
Rex
(65,616 posts)with net neutrality gone now - even more so with little oversight and regulation. BUT we are not a closed system yet and we do not lock up political prisoners en mass. Traveling around the country is still highly possible, unless you fly and to this day (and you cannot argue against this) you and I can sit here and talk all kinds of crap about the government and not get 'disappeared'. NOT YET at least.
So yeah...we are at the doorway, will we open the door or nail it shut is the question.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)I thought it would happen when Dubya was in office, but it did not and has not happened under Obama either. Maybe one day it will, but the only way we can keep from going through that authoritarian doorway, is to bring back real oversight over these spy agencies and make sure there is transparency from top to bottom in every police organization throughout the country. Do away with the DEA and the DHS.
I believe the War on Drugs helps push us toward a new kind of police state with every day that passes. I believe judges that put people in for-profit prisons help enable this development of a new kind of police state - as well as when someone like a billionare...oh let's just say Bloomberg, comes out and declares he has his own private army...that too helps develop this image of the plutocracy owning the authoritarians in this country that are pushing the taxpayer through the doorway...kicking and screaming NO!
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)fact remains? This hair-splitting ends in distracting from the issue (and the action that recognition might inspire, which is frequently the goal) to the point of being counter-productive.
No choice remains for an ever increasing number of people. Abuse of authority is rampant and unaccountable across the spectrum, while laws are meaningless excuses to repress those that are not above them. How is your 'door' not behind us?
Rex
(65,616 posts)It is not so much about splitting hairs, as getting the terminology correct. For example, let us say we know of a country living under a Marxist regime, I would be stupid to tell people it is a fascist government. America does not fit into the classical definition of a Police State, I cannot change that just because I want to. We live in a plutocracy that encourages a Police State mentality. That I believe to be true.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)What you have there are anecdotes - that is to say, utterly worthless.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Police state tactics and infrastructure growing in the United States of America
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024329044#post94
reddread
(6,896 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Wild exaggeration doesn't solve the problem. In a police state, you can't complain/sue/do anything to oppose it.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)unfortunately, those who need to hear and understand what you and I are writing are committed to the hyperbolic version and don't see the huge problem with trying to change the meaning to suit them.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)that the US is a police state? Or that it is a common view among Europeans in general?
I ask because I believe you live in, or are from, Europe, and almost all of my conscious European friends seem to view the US as an authoritarian police state.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)(see http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594660) and the only time this has ever happened is when someone has posted something that could be construed as a threat to the President.
All of those awful things that have been said here about George Bush and Cheney and what should happen to them. The posts about illegal pot smoking. The marijuana plant avatars. The posts advocating civil disobedience. And not one time, not a single time (except when there was a perceived threat to the President) has a single law enforcement officer dropped by the DU office to inquire about the person making the post.
Not exactly a Gestapo-style regime of terror.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)just because they are Prez and Veep? Sound pretty police state to me.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And nobody in law enforcement gives the slightest shit, except when there is a perceived threat to the President. If this really was a "police state", Skinner would be receiving a lot more visits than he is.
