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Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:33 AM

Study: Too much red meat may shorten lifespan

Want to live longer? Trade some of the red meat in your diet for fish, nuts, whole grains, and other healthier protein sources, Harvard researchers say.

That's the conclusion of a new study, published this week in the Archives of Internal Medicine, that found that the risk of dying at an early age -- from heart disease, cancer, or any other cause—rises in step with red-meat consumption.

Eating too much red meat, which is high in saturated fat and cholesterol, has long been seen as unhealthy, especially for the heart. The new study, however, is the first to estimate the effect of swapping out red meat on a person's lifespan.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health/red-meat-shorten-lifespan/index.html

Insert popcorn smiley here.

*grins*

97 replies, 11645 views

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Reply Study: Too much red meat may shorten lifespan (Original post)
flvegan Mar 2012 OP
tabatha Mar 2012 #1
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #2
laundry_queen Mar 2012 #4
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #6
cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #11
FarCenter Mar 2012 #30
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #36
FarCenter Mar 2012 #41
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #46
FarCenter Mar 2012 #49
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #55
Kali Mar 2012 #87
obamanut2012 Mar 2012 #70
laundry_queen Mar 2012 #72
dixiegrrrrl Mar 2012 #86
Kali Mar 2012 #88
laundry_queen Mar 2012 #97
frazzled Mar 2012 #3
Aerows Mar 2012 #39
tabatha Mar 2012 #58
veganlush Mar 2012 #5
cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #7
Swede Mar 2012 #8
ZombieHorde Mar 2012 #12
Loudmxr Mar 2012 #9
Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #10
arely staircase Mar 2012 #13
Liquorice Mar 2012 #61
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #76
arely staircase Mar 2012 #79
The Genealogist Mar 2012 #75
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #77
arely staircase Mar 2012 #78
LadyHawkAZ Mar 2012 #14
aquart Mar 2012 #15
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #16
surrealAmerican Mar 2012 #21
jobycom Mar 2012 #17
appleannie1 Mar 2012 #18
Cal33 Mar 2012 #40
Recovered Repug Mar 2012 #19
Bladian Mar 2012 #54
diane in sf Mar 2012 #20
Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #81
HopeHoops Mar 2012 #22
RadiationTherapy Mar 2012 #23
econoclast Mar 2012 #24
FarCenter Mar 2012 #32
Luminous Animal Mar 2012 #45
LanternWaste Mar 2012 #25
hobbit709 Mar 2012 #26
Quantess Mar 2012 #27
RebelOne Mar 2012 #42
RagAss Mar 2012 #84
LanternWaste Mar 2012 #34
hobbit709 Mar 2012 #44
Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #82
trotsky Mar 2012 #28
geardaddy Mar 2012 #29
drokhole Mar 2012 #33
Quantess Mar 2012 #48
drokhole Mar 2012 #68
Kali Mar 2012 #89
Beacool Mar 2012 #31
Arugula Latte Mar 2012 #35
Aerows Mar 2012 #37
Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #38
sudopod Mar 2012 #62
Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #63
RebelOne Mar 2012 #43
Vattel Mar 2012 #47
stuntcat Mar 2012 #50
Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #51
stuntcat Mar 2012 #52
Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #53
stuntcat Mar 2012 #56
Mr.Turnip Mar 2012 #57
jsmirman Mar 2012 #60
Major Hogwash Mar 2012 #59
SidDithers Mar 2012 #64
The2ndWheel Mar 2012 #65
jsmirman Mar 2012 #67
The2ndWheel Mar 2012 #71
HappyMe Mar 2012 #66
Jennicut Mar 2012 #69
Swede Mar 2012 #73
Old Troop Mar 2012 #74
sikorsky Mar 2012 #80
RagAss Mar 2012 #83
Odin2005 Mar 2012 #85
flvegan Mar 2012 #90
jsmirman Mar 2012 #92
Odin2005 Mar 2012 #94
jsmirman Mar 2012 #96
Odin2005 Mar 2012 #95
iris27 Mar 2012 #91
Odin2005 Mar 2012 #93

Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:37 AM

1. Most corn is GMO?

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Response to tabatha (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:45 AM

4. The most interesting part of this study

is the horrendous impact things like bacon and salami seem to have. That's been several new studies that have just come out that say that processed meats w/nitrites are really, really horrible - they increase your risk of colon cancer and pancreatic cancer by 20% and now it seems like they increase your overall risk of death by the same amount.

I will continue to eat red meat occasionally, and cut out carbs, and refrain from anything with nitrites. And when I am able to afford grass-fed beef, I'll go for that because I agree that feeding cows GMO corn probably isn't making for the healthiest meat on the market.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #4)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:46 AM

6. Feeding any kind of corn to cows is terrifically unhealthy for the cows.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:49 AM

11. Ha. I'd say that LIFE is terrifically unhealthy for ze cows. n/t

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:29 PM

30. Silage is very commonly fed to cows, and they do well with silage as part of the diet

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #30)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:40 PM

36. Silage is not corn.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #36)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:41 PM

41. Silage is normally made of corn

Corn Silage
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G4590

It can be made of other plants, such as sorghum, but most silage in those tall blue silos that dot the landscape is corn silage.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #41)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 03:23 PM

46. When I was growing up on the farm, sileage was the green part only. Not the corn.

Cows have a very difficult time digesting corn.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #46)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 05:56 PM

49. Silage is the whole plant, ears and all

The silage chopper cuts off the stalk a few inches above the ground and chops up the whole plant. It is usually done when the kernals are not completely hard, but are still a little soft. But they are quite mature, because you harvest silage after the plant has started to dry out. The cobs may be a little smaller than in corn raised for grain, because silage corn is planted at a higher density of plants per acre.

The kernals, usually attached to some cob, can be easily seen in the silage.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #49)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:33 PM

55. This was pre rampant use of anti-biotics. Not one farmer I knew would have fed the cows

anything but the green part. Not one. Corn makes cows sick. And that is a fact. These days, we don't care if they get sick, we just add anti-biotics to the feed and let them stand knee-high deep in their own shit and hope that they don't get too sick before slaughter.

The silage corn that the farmers grew in my farm community was reserved for horses. In fact, we called it horse corn.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #55)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:59 PM

87. no

the problems happen when the ratios are so far off from nature. Cattle can consume a fair amount of grain just fine - as long as it is balanced with roughage. Intensive feeding to push growth/fat with a high carb (grain) diet is when you get the metabolic problems.

In nature, there are times of the year (typically late summer and fall) when grasses are ripening and going to seed that cattle eat a much larger portion of "grain" than the rest of the year. That was one reason home slaughter happened in late fall/early winter (another reason is flies and storage issues). Same with hunting. That is when an animal is typically at its highest plane of nutrition and health.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 10:11 AM

70. Don't cut carbs out -- carbs are terrific for you

Just cut out simple carbs like sugar and white flour. I rarely eat corn because of the GMO factor, but some corn is fine for humans, just not cattle and dogs and cats.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #70)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 12:13 PM

72. I suppose I should know better here on DU :)

and I should have clarified.

When I said cut out carbs, I meant continuing my low carb diet. Contrary to most popular opinion, low-carb diets contain plenty of carbs. On the weight loss phase of the particular low-carb diet I'm on, you are supposed to eat 11-20 grams 5 times a day. You aren't allowed sugar or 'white' carbs though. And those 11-20 carbs are 'extra', meaning you don't have to count the carbs in nuts/seeds or vegetables. Those 11-20 carbs are supposed to come from whole grains or fruits.

There IS a type of 'induction' phase of the diet where you eat 5 grams of carbs every 5 hours or so, which is really restrictive, but it's only for a short period of time. Most of the time you are supposed to have the 11-20 carbs each meal, and on the maintenance phase you are supposed to (not 'allowed' but 'supposed to') eat even more carbs.

Anyhow, just thought I'd mention that. When I said cut out carbs I didn't mean I was going to eat nothing but meat.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #4)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 09:27 PM

86. I think you will find that even grass fed beef is "finished" on grains.

We get organic grass fed beef, actually 1/2 of a beef, once a year.
While raised on pasture grass, for some period of time before slaughter, beef are grain fed.
I forgot the reasoning the farmer gave me, but it appears to be a common practice.

Wonder if there are any buffalo ranches near me.....maybe that would be different?

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #86)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:06 AM

88. depends on the farm/ranch

you can get grass only, range only, clean-out fed with corn, grain finished, etc. and yes the same applies to buffalo. Ask whoever you are buying from what their feeding/finishing program is and if you want something different ask if they are amenable to that. I bet most any direct seller will explain their philosophy fully if you are interested and many will custom finish as well.

usually a few weeks of grain are fed to get a less gamey flavor, more than that is to develop better marbling/tenderness.

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #86)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:38 PM

97. I lived in an area

Where buffalo meat was plentiful. I bought buffalo steak often. I'm not sure if they got grains or not, the package always just said, 'grass-fed'.

I didn't know about the 'finished' on grains, but it makes sense - from what I understand, the grains make the meat taste better, so feeding them grains right at the end would eliminate any weird taste from a fully grass-fed cow. We once got a cow that just didn't taste 'right' and my (now ex) husband talked to the farmer and he said that he didn't give the cows grain at all and maybe the cow 'got into something'. The meat was slightly wild and skunky tasting - like moose meat.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:43 AM

3. of cows ...

for sure.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:15 PM

39. I eat lamb once a week

It's so good it's like a slice of heaven. I'd eat goat, too, for a change up if there was fresh in my area.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #39)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 11:49 PM

58. Yep, it is pretty much a given that lamb and goat are grass-fed.

I try to eat lamb every other week.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:45 AM

5. Yes

hehehe

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:47 AM

7. If lovin' you is wrooOOoong... I don't wanna be right.

Gimme red meat, and let me step aside to make room for two more...

MMM mmm MMM.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:47 AM

8. While others say the opposite.

The low carb,high protein is getting more popular. You eat meat,eggs,butter etc,but avoid all breads,pastas etc.

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Response to Swede (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:52 AM

12. That is not the opposite.

There are many other ways of getting protein than red meat.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:48 AM

9. I disagree. Conservatives throw out red meat all the time and they seem to live forever!!

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:48 AM

10. Don't care, give me a good steak over all those other things anyday.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:06 AM

13. i'm shocked this is the first study to quatify this

pretty sure red meat and the cigs killed my dad at 58 (heart attack), but then his dad ate just as much and lived to 92 - but didn't smoke.

I try to limit it to small portioned lean cuts no more than once a week. i try to eat lots of fish and have given up the pork except the most rare occasion (like relatives in town and they insist on the shoney's buffett)

before i moved i used to eat at a place that served free range bison burgers - supposedly not as bad for you.

the hardest thing for me to give up is whole milk. it's just so much tastier than 2 percent and 1 percent might as well be water, which sucks on grape nuts.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 03:08 AM

61. You could try almond milk. It's delicious and always wins taste tests vs cow milk. nt

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Response to Liquorice (Reply #61)

Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:32 PM

76. It is delicious. Too often though, people buy the sugary kind.

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Response to Liquorice (Reply #61)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:05 PM

79. tried it, and i like it

that was a long time ago. maybe i'll try slowly working it in with an eye on making it a replacement.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #13)

Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:26 PM

75. Might portion control have anything to do with it?

Two of my grandparents lived to be near 90. My dad's dad couldn't understand how people drank so much soda. Soda was usually a Saturday afternoon treat. He never ate large meals, and he was a letter carrier for years, and remained quite active after retirement too, with much travel and activities such as canoeing and fishing. My mother's mother never ate large meals. She rarely even finished a burger, fries and drink when she ate them, and that was with 70s and 80s sized portions, not the ultra-jumbo sized meals fast food places serve. They both ate plenty of veggies, but they did eat what is today considered unhealthy foods; they just at LESS of it. My other two grandparents died at younger ages, but one had cancer, the other what seems to be a hereditary heart condition. My parents didn't live to very advanced ages, but both had cancer. They both ate more food, too.

At the same time, I can look at what fretting about health does to people, too. A cousin of my mother's with whom I'm close has blood pressure issues, cancer, nerves. He spends many hours at the doctor, and swallows meds all day long. I think at least part of his problem is that news and some health practitioners have kept him ratcheted up with nerves over the years, which contributes to his poor health. He frets over nearly everything he puts in his mouth because "a study" said this or "TV Doctor so-and-so" said that.

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Response to The Genealogist (Reply #75)

Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:40 PM

77. He might like to read "The Omnivores Dilemma" or "In Defense of Food"...

both are written by Michael Pollan and both might help him put his mind at ease. "The Omnivores Dilemma" is more dense - a personal narrative chocked full of useful information - "In Defense of Food" goes straight to the information. Neither one advocate "a study" said this or a "TV Doctor so-and-so" said that. Both reject yo-yo food fads.

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Response to The Genealogist (Reply #75)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:02 PM

78. definitely

and excercise - your letter carrying grandfather, for example. i think that, along with not smoking is what allowed my grandfather to outlive his son (my dad.) the former was blue collar, outside and doing physical labor. my dad was an accountant.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:09 AM

14. Yes, but they make that shorter lifespan so much nicer.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:23 AM

15. Define "too much."

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Response to aquart (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:30 AM

16. The U.S. govt recommends 5.5 - 6 oz from the meat/beans group daily.

This group includes meat, fish, poultry, eggs, nuts, seeds, dried beans and peas. So, probably more than 2 oz of red meat a day is too much.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/282320-recommended-daily-intake-of-food-groups/#ixzz1oyIqw5Ui

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Response to aquart (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 08:20 AM

21. The article claims "half a serving per day" ...

... is a good amount, more than that ought to be avoided. They also recommend doing without processed meats (bacon, hot dogs, etc.) entirely.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:56 AM

17. When I goes, I knows I will be with the lawd, do I don't care 'bout no science stuff.



And btw, what happened to the clown smilie? Those bastads!

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:51 AM

18. I eat very little beef because I don't have arthritis flare ups if I stay away from it.

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Response to appleannie1 (Reply #18)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:26 PM

40. The bones of most people in their 60s and on don't absorb enough

calcium, even when they take high doses of Vit. D, Magnesium, etc... So
fragile bones that fracture easily and become arthritic is the result for
older people. It may take many years though. I started having pain
some 8 months ago and did quite some research.

Just google EZorb. There's a lot of info on bone problems of all sorts
there. I started taking the pills, and within 3 to 4 weeks I noticed a
considerable decrease in the pain.

Just read it, and good luck.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 03:29 AM

19. They can take my meat when they pry it from my cold dead hands. nt

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Response to Recovered Repug (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:30 PM

54. You...I like you. nt

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 04:34 AM

20. Probably won't shorten it as much as corn syrup.

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Response to diane in sf (Reply #20)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:23 PM

81. Got a study for that

or just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it will stick?

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 08:59 AM

22. The McFood generation will be the one to reverse the trend toward longer lifespans.

 

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 09:07 AM

23. I have realized, and am embarrassed it took so long, that there is anti-nutritionalism as well as

anti-intellectualism. One of my professors wrote a paper about the correlation between masculinity and meat eating and that the media portrays "Real Men" as hard-core, red meat eaters. Among my conservative friends, calorie consumption, "bucking" nutritional "trends" (or facts, depending), and eating lots of red, cured meats all seem to reinforce their conservative cred; in one another's minds, anyway.

I expect to see a surge in the anti-nutrition crowd in the wake of this report.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 09:10 AM

24. All corn-fed meat is unhealthy

Not just red meat and not just GMO corn

There are two main types of essential fatty acids. Omeda-3 and omega-6.

Omega-6 promotes inflammation and blood clotting. Omega-3 helps blood flow freely.

Corn is high in omega-6 fatty acids. All corn...not just GMO corn. Modern beef cows are fed a diet of mostly corn. This produces beef with enormous amounts of omega-6. Grass fed beef by contrast contains about equal amounts of omega-6 and omega-3.

Fish has a high proportion of omega-3. But be advised that farm raised fish can be fed a diet based on corn products as well. Those fish yield meat that is also high in omega-6

So I think that what this study really points to is an over abundance of omega-6 in our diets.

I highly recommend a book ( yes a book not a website ) titled "Omnivores Dilemma"

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Response to econoclast (Reply #24)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:39 PM

32. Most of the omega-6 in modern diets would be from vegetable oils

It is much more concentrated in corn oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, etc than it is in the fat of meats.

There is also more omega-6 in chicken than in ground beef.

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Response to econoclast (Reply #24)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 03:20 PM

45. The "Omnivores Dilemma is one of my favorite books of all time.

I refer to it often and reread passages now and again.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 09:36 AM

25. Every day, I get a little closer to going vegan.

Every day, I get a little closer to going vegan.

Pink slime, saturated fats, red dye to make meat appear "healthier" in grocery stores, etc.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 09:39 AM

26. Tell that to my 108 year old great-uncle.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #26)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:05 PM

27. The oldest recorded person was a lady in Arles, France.

She smoked cigarettes most of her life. But that doesn't mean people should keep on puffing away.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #27)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:52 PM

42. Well, I am 73 and have been smoking since I was 16.

And I am still alive and kicking with no serious health problems, so I hope to make to my 80s.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #42)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:33 PM

84. My dad lived to be 85...eating grease and smoking Pall Mall non-filters.

Maybe I need to switch from these filtered cigs I smoke.

-rags

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #26)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:02 PM

34. I imagine we often hold anecdotal evidence nearer and dearer to us that peer-reviewed analyses...

I imagine we often hold anecdotal evidence nearer and dearer to us that peer-reviewed analyses as science is merely a convenience...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #34)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 03:19 PM

44. I'd say it depends a lot on where you live and what kind of food you eat.

My great-uncle lives in Vienna.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:25 PM

82. Yes, because one anecdotal piece of evidence

disputes an entire published study.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:17 PM

28. I'd like to see them distinguish between grain-fed and grass-fed beef.

Grass-fed is much healthier for you with better fats.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #28)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:25 PM

29. It's also healthier for the cattle.

Cows stomachs aren't designed to eat corn at all, whether it's GMO or not.

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Response to drokhole (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 03:43 PM

48. That's so cool!

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Response to Quantess (Reply #48)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 10:02 AM

68. Joel Salatin is brilliant.

He and his farm have been featured on some great documentaries - like Food Inc. and Fresh. He's also an author, and has given loads of fantastic, impassioned speeches across the country - including this TED Talk:

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Response to drokhole (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:14 AM

89. Salatin AND the eatwild link!

My usual links to post for people looking to eat better and encourage saner agriculture too.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:33 PM

31. If they are referring to corn fed, shot full of hormones American cattle, then I believe them.

But go tell that to an elderly Argentine gaucho who has been eating beef all his life. The difference is that their cattle is grass fed, mostly grazing in the vast pampas. Argentine beef is delicious and I intend to get plenty of eat on my next trip there. In the States I eat beef sparingly.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 01:32 PM

35. I stopped eating red meat when I was a teenager and I'm in my 40s now.

Best decision ever!

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:05 PM

37. I've changed some of my ways

I eat more fish. I haven't stopped drinking milk since calcium is a huge issue for women. I never was a fan of eggs, so that's not a problem.

I DO have to take iron supplements. I have a tendency towards anemia. What do you suppose those iron supplements are derived from? This isn't a facetious question - it's a genuine one. What are they derived from?

Spinach and other legumes have iron, but much of it is not absorbed by the body due to the presence of other minerals that take precedence.

I'm not attacking this study, nor claiming you are wrong, FLVegan. There are tremendous benefits to a vegan lifestyle. I'm just opening up a dialogue.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:07 PM

38. We have to ban things like pepperoni, salami, and pastrami. Look to NYC to lead the way. nt

 

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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #38)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 04:38 AM

62. Who or what are you responding to, exactly?

Do you just have a thing against NYC?

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Response to sudopod (Reply #62)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 08:07 AM

63. Born and raised there. nt

 

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 02:55 PM

43. I have not eaten any meat except fish for 15 years.

It was not for health reasons, but my compassion for animals. I cannot become a vegan because I love cheese, milk and eggs. But at least the animals did not have to be killed for their eggs and milk products.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #43)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 03:33 PM

47. I too am a vegetarian for reasons of compassion.

The life of a plant has no value for it (as far as I can tell) but the life of a cow clearly can have more or less value for the cow, depending on how happy the cow is and how long it lives. Personally, I want cows to have long, happy lives.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:07 PM

50. dropping the dead flesh is obviously (to me) the most important leap our species needs to make

The sooner we do it the better. Right now we really are raping our own future with that industry. It's a total waste.

Also a shame the disgusting violence going on every day, that consumers are in denial of.

It's evolution, honor, decency. It's sorta hard living with people who still eat some meat, but the ones who beat their chests about the steaks they eat make me ashamed of my species.

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Response to stuntcat (Reply #50)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:11 PM

51. It's sort of hard living with people who complain about others eating meat.

The ones who really yell about it and call us murderers and say we deny the conditions of the industry make me ashamed of my species.

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Response to Mr.Turnip (Reply #51)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:17 PM

52. oh then you don't deny the conditions,

you buy the product of it though?

You seem offended. sry!

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Response to stuntcat (Reply #52)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:29 PM

53. I don't deny it, I just don't really care.

Call me cold or selfish or whatever you like. But think of this, if we did not use all the cattle and other domesticated animals we currently have on farms, ranches, factories what have you what would happen to all of them? If we just let them live and bred why they would wreck completely havok on ecosystems around the world.

And yes maybe I am a bit offended by people claiming they are morally superior to others because of what they eat, particularly when they express disdain for people who do not eat like they do.

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Response to Mr.Turnip (Reply #53)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 06:51 PM

56. I wasn't gonna reply to you again but

but you don't see that the billions of animals being farmed for food wouldn't be there if people hadn't built that earth-rapingly unsustainable industry in the last few decades? It could be phased out, with great success and a brighte...

oh nevermind, you are not going to listen to me.

I am so so sorry that I offended you

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Response to stuntcat (Reply #56)

Tue Mar 13, 2012, 07:04 PM

57. You can't exactly "phase out" the animals without purging the population.

And yes the industry has grown massively in the past few decades as the human population has grown and as countries like China develop but it's not like the raising of animals for substance is a recent development.

I am listening to you, but there is a difference between listening and having my opinion changed.

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Response to Mr.Turnip (Reply #53)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 02:07 AM

60. Your post is terrible, in virtually all ways

I would call you selfish, destructive, anti-environment, pro-cruelty, and a bunch of other things.

Your argument about existing cattle, pigs, etc. is stupid. It's not a serious argument. The absurd excess of numbers in animals that exists and is sustained by the food industry is a product of massive over-breeding via torture devices like gestation crates. What scenario your ridiculous "oh noes, escaped pigs rampaging around the world!!!" contemplates, it is hard to pinpoint. The world isn't all going to universally and suddenly go vegan, 100%. At best, meat eating is being phased down, and in certain cases phased out. Perhaps, with less demand, the incentive for Big Ag to over-breed, destroy the earth, and indulge in cruelty will similarly be reduced.

As to why everything you said is terrible, here are a few paragraphs that don't so much contain arguments as they contain facts. Well, there are a few opinions thrown in there:

The environmental case for eating less meat is overwhelming. Factory farmed animals consume enormous quantities of crops, metabolizing and excreting most of what they eat as environment-polluting waste. Direct consumption by human beings (a non-meat diet) feeds more humans with fewer crops, using less land. Factory farms require extraordinary amounts of water and fossil fuels, and methane emissions and water pollution are inescapable byproducts of these operations. Animals are penned in without freedom of movement, fresh air or sunlight, living in conditions that few among us could bear for a single afternoon. But one thing will escape from those barns – excrement. Massive, ghastly lagoons of pig and cattle waste regularly leak into rivers and water tables. Operations that spray “fertilizer” pollute the earth more directly, saturating, not fertilizing the land.

Regularly eating meat supports an inefficient food industry built on cruelty. For many of us who transitioned to vegetarianism and veganism there was an inescapable conclusion – if you eat pork, beef, or chicken, the odds are overwhelming that an animal was tortured on a factory farm to satisfy your craving. By 2007, four U.S. pork producers – all practitioners of factory farming – controlled 66% of the entire market for pig products. Four companies control more than 75% of the cattle market. The top two poultry companies kill more than 4 billion chickens each year, sending them off to cruel mechanical death after short, miserable lives spent in cages as wide as half an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper.

Now for something really scary: exploding pig waste foam. In Minnesota, home of ag giant, Cargill, slush like foam has been found on top of manure pits and congealed under the eaves of factory barns. The foam traps gases like methane, which has caused entire barns to explode, killing thousands of pigs and causing millions of dollars in damages. The Minnesota Pork Producers Association, among others, is funding research at the University of Minnesota to solve the foam problem.


So in short, you support more starvation, destruction of the Earth, horrifying cruelty, and exploding pig shit. Congratulations, that's quite a slate.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 12:01 AM

59. Was this news blurb sponsored by The Olive Garden?

I have to say it may be nice to eat more fish and nuts, but it's hard to beat a good steak.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 08:09 AM

64. Thankfully, bacon isn't red meat...

Mmmmmm, bacon.

Sid

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:46 AM

65. If it were up to me

the domestication of non-human animals wouldn't have happened, and if you wanted to kill it and eat it, you'd have to earn it. That means no guns or farms, as those make it just too easy.

As for the reality in which we live; eat what you want to eat, don't eat what you don't want to eat, and don't worry so much about when other people are going to die.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #65)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:57 AM

67. Woo Hoo!!! Ignorance! Yeah!!!

If you read my post above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002418020#post60

(you know, the one with like, actual information)

you would see how bankrupt this viewpoint is. Factory Farming is about far more than "when other people are going to die."

People are going to do what they are going to do, but on a site where I think we're supposed to believe that we are "enlightened," people really should stop being so proud of, or at least unapologetic about being so fucking ignorant.

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Response to jsmirman (Reply #67)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 10:55 AM

71. I'm no fan of factory farming

Don't like zoos either. Farms and husbandry, nothing but attempts to control, to make other life outside of what it might be worth to humanity not worth something for its own sake. Agriculture has been one of the most destructive activities the human species has managed to do, as factory farms wouldn't even exist without it. The same can be said of roads. I find it very sad the way that we've increasingly tried to mold the rest of life on this planet, and the planet itself, mostly through violence as historically might has made right, to fit the narrow wants of a single species.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 09:54 AM

66. Meh!

I don't eat it everyday. I still enjoy it once or twice weekly.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2012, 10:07 AM

69. I don't eat much red meat.

Truthfully, the taste kind of grosses me out. When I was a kid, I was anemic. I wouldn't eat any meat. As a type 1 diabetic, I have to include some more protein as I can't eat as many carbs. I eat peanut butter, beans, some turkey and chicken. But steak, hamburgers, etc. just are not my thing. Which is just as well, as I have loads of other health issues to worry about.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Fri Mar 16, 2012, 08:06 PM

73. Tom Woods Interviews Gary Taubes on Red Meat Scare Study

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:15 PM

74. I think it's OK though if you put out your cigarette before

eating red meat.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:19 PM

80. I never eat red meat

 

until after a cup of coffee or a bloody mary. Seriously, I'd rather drop dead if I couldn't have a couple steaks a week...(I am 71 and way healthier than my doctor)


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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:29 PM

83. I guess if I was rich I'd care about living a long life.

By the time these fascists finish their work with Social Security and Medicare, I'll be in the streets....so who gives a fuck.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 09:07 PM

85. Right, because all those people on the Atkins diet have dropped dead, right?

Newsflash, your blood cholesterol has NOTHING to do with dietary cholesterol, it is a side effect of insulin resistance caused by too many carbs in your diet.

There is so much nutritional conventional wisdom that is BS based more on grain agribusiness propaganda rather than physiological reality. Placing carbohydrates at the base of the food pyramid is based on politics, not science.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #85)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:52 AM

90. You're right. Harvard researchers and science in general be damned.

Eat up.

I loved being "schooled" on nutrition by amateurs.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #90)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 04:32 AM

92. Please, please tell him what happened to Atkins, himself

tell him about one of life's ultimate petard-hoistings...

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Response to jsmirman (Reply #92)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:16 PM

94. He lost weight and lived into his 80s.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #94)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:53 PM

96. Yeah, that would be incorrect

not sure why you would state something so confidently that is simply wrong.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #90)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:18 PM

95. I would not call most nutrition to be science.

It's more like economics, imprecise and liable to the whims of politics.

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Response to flvegan (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:10 AM

91. Bad methodology.

This study used a "food frequency questionnaire" - something known in nutritionist circles to be incredibly imprecise - and sent it out once every four years for 24 years.

Moreover, the total risk of death over the course of the study was less than 1%. And the risk of death among those who claimed to eat red meat everyday (and really, who does that?)...was, wait for it...ALSO less than 1%.

Meanwhile, the average risk of death among the US population for the subjects' age range was...2.5%

So what does that tell you? Participating in a nutrition study reduces your risk of death by 67%?

No.

It tells you that the subjects in this study are not representative of the population as a whole.

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Response to iris27 (Reply #91)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:15 PM

93. Yep, people are very bad at describing what they eat and how much.

Unless they are actually counting calories and serving sizes.

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