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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:27 PM

That was pretty goddamned incoherent, frankly.

I found that address to be an eloquently delivered ball of fundamental incoherence.

The rub: Gas sucks, dead children are terrible, so I want to attack, but we're working on a diplomatic solution, yet if you're on the right and love the military, or if you're on the left and love human rights, you totally have to look at the dead kids on YouTube and get behind me on attacking Syria even though I've asked Congress to suspend the vote and we're pursuing diplomacy so there won't be an attack, or something.

Gobldeygook. Tell me I'm wrong.

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Reply That was pretty goddamned incoherent, frankly. (Original post)
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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:28 PM

1. It was disorienting to say the least...

Maybe we take his gas and bomb him anyways?

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Response to PrestonLocke (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 06:32 AM

372. I'm cutting him a lot of slack - he has to play all sides right now


We won't be sure of his true intentions until all this is over, but every day there is no bombing, no invasion, is a good day.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #372)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 08:10 AM

385. "We won't be sure of his true intentions until all this is over"

That's starting to sound like "loose cannon"

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:29 PM

2. You sir, are correct. I mean you are not wrong.

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:29 PM

3. Summary: "Assad, I'm not bluffing. Take the deal."

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:34 PM

18. Exactly.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:37 PM

27. And the less obvious sub point ... there for those paying attention ...

"Oh, btw ... the Unitary Executive doctrine, is dead."

I can see how some had trouble with this speech ... they had predicted that Obama would be announcing "Shock and Awe" had started, and a 2nd Iraq war like invasion was underway.

When that didn't happen, they were a little lost.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:39 PM

37. Yeah, that was pretty impressive, too.

One can't be too bothered by those troubled by the speech, they always expect the worst. So many failed predictions by Obama detractors it's hard to take them seriously.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:43 PM

50. Obama expected the American people to back him.

They didn't, big time. It is hard to take those seriously who can (or more probably won't) see that.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #50)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:47 PM

63. I don't think so.

I think he expected the international community to back him, though, since chemical weapons are banned by 98% of the world community. I am sure he knew the American people wouldn't back him.

I think what caught him off guard is that other countries backed down the rhetoric.

I think he full well would've struck had the EU states been on board, with or without congress, but because they weren't he decided the "do nothing" approach was better and has been backing down gradually ever since.

Obama has held the morally consistent and correct position the entire time.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #63)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:55 PM

92. After the Shit that W pulled,

it will be a long time before anyone backs us in a military action again. That damage is done and we will live with it for decades.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #92)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 12:02 AM

288. +1

Fool me once .... shame ... shame ... fool me ... won't get fooled again.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #92)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 06:28 AM

369. Five years between Vietnam and Reagan's election "to make America strong again"

and to "overcome the Vietnam Syndrome".


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Response to joshcryer (Reply #63)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:56 PM

97. The correct position?

The Chemical Weapons Treaty, which we signed, said the U.S. had to destroy its chemical weapons by May 1, 2012. We refused and now say we intend to destroy them by 2023. When it comes to morals and consistency regarding chemical weapons we don't have a leg to stand on.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #97)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:00 PM

108. That is a bold faced lie. 90% is destroyed.

You have to build facilities on the storage sites so that you don't have to move the chemicals to another facility, through communities, through counties, cities. You destroy it on site. The last two remaining sites will have their facilities completed soon. This is a financial and priority thing but the US has been destroying its weapons. The US didn't "refuse" to destroy the weapons.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #108)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:04 PM

121. I expect you will be making excuses in 2023.

The U.S. still has far more than Assad could ever dream of.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #121)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:10 PM

143. We have 365 tons of Sarin + VX and 500 tons of mustard gas.

They have 1,000 of chemical weapons that is our best estimate.

Why are you being an apologist for Syria's chemical weapons program? They're producing the stuff, we're destroying it.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #143)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:43 PM

210. You are an apologist for American bullying.

"our best estimate" Who are you, in charge of the program? Do you really think they are giving accurate information? You claim 90% destruction. Then why wait another 10 years for the final 10%?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #210)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:48 PM

214. They have to build facilities.

How hard is this to grasp? You could in theory ship it to a facility to get rid of it but states wouldn't allow that (just look at how nuclear disposal isn't going anywhere). So it's quicker, in reality, to just build the facilities on site and destroy the weapons on site.

Bush cut the program's funding which is why it slipped so badly. It would've been done already had Bush not cut it.

If "American bullying" is what got Russia and Syria to decide on destroying Syria's chemical weapons, then fuck yeah I'd be proud to be an "apologist" for that.

There are very few conventions the US is on the right side of. Chemical weapons is one of them. The US is still on the wrong side of mines, cluster munitions, and incendiaries.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #214)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:35 AM

423. So they built facilities for 90% of it

but just can't find the time to build for the last 10%. It will take at least 10 years for the last facility! Maybe its the sequester! Yeah, that's it! The things people believe....

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Response to former9thward (Reply #423)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:30 PM

510. Bush cut the funding for 8 years!

What the fuck.

The last two facilities were the smaller ones, they were saved for last, because you have to justify on paper building two entirely different facilities to destroy chemical weapons in two separate locations equaling under a thousand tons of material.

It's better to get rid of the largest stockpiles first. This is so easy to understand I don't know what your problem is. The US is on the right side of this issue whether you like it or not.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #510)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 08:59 AM

520. US on the right side of this issue?

What exactly is this issue? The U.S. happily uses chemical weapons that for some magical reason are not banned such as Napalm and Agent Orange. Please tell me why does it feel better to die with indiscriminate flaming gasoline thrown on you rather than gas? For that matter why is better to die of a bullet that has exploded in your gut than gas? Military technology has passed by chemical ban treaties long ago and always will. That is why I think it is a BS issue.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #210)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:17 PM

237. Rachel was just talking about this. The US HAS destroyed nearly all its stockpiles.

The US DOES have to build a special building on site to finish it off, and that building is under way.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #237)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:30 AM

420. Ohh and that building is going to take at least 10 years to build.....

The things people post on DU expecting people to believe it.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #210)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 08:47 AM

394. go ahead. tell me I'm an apologist for American bullying.

that would be amusing. I double dog dare you.

Josh is correct re U.S. chemical stores. We hardly deserve an award for it, but he's right and you're demonstrating your ignorance.

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Response to cali (Reply #394)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 09:47 AM

411. Ignorance is bliss

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Response to cali (Reply #394)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:34 AM

422. some people are so mad at the country for various things they'll be in denial about stuff like this.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #422)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:37 AM

425. And some people have facts.

That others turn their heads away from.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #425)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:40 AM

427. ^ proves my point

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Response to former9thward (Reply #425)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:11 AM

435. not something in your possession in this case. n/t

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Response to cali (Reply #394)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:36 AM

424. Another chemical weapon expert on DU!

Who knew the intellectual riches we have!

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Response to former9thward (Reply #210)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 09:23 AM

405. Please Read this Article on the Storage of Chemical Weapons.

I live in Lexington, KY and the Bluegrass Army Depot in nearby Richmond, KY, is a storage site for Sarin and VX gas... a site for the destruction of the nerve gas is underway. This article should provide you with accurate informtion regarding the intentions of the US when it comes to destroying these chemical weapons.

~snip~

Blue Grass Army Depot will be the last of nine sites to destroy its chemical weapons. The task is harder there because, unlike other sites, the chemicals are loaded in explosive M55 rockets and corroding projectiles that were meant to be shot out of cannons. The plant under construction will make heavy use of robots and other automated assemblies to separate the explosives and metal from the chemicals. Even with that automation, it will employ about 1,000 people.

Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2013/09/09/2812927/chemicals-allegedly-used-in-syria.html#storylink=cpy


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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #405)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:40 AM

426. So a MIC jobs program!

That is why it is going to take at least 10 years! At least I can accept that as an excuse instead of the "we must build facilities" bullshit.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #426)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:28 AM

439. I suspect....

you don't truly understand the complexities of destroying these horrid weapons, which we should have never created in the first place.

The cynicism running rampant on this board leads me to believe that instead of having the best interest of the American public at heart, many only like to hear themselves rant without having any knowledge of what they are ranting about.

There is no doubt that the military-industrial complex is powerful, but when the government is trying to do something right, even with all the bureaucratic idiocy, it would be nice for people to at least acknowledge the effort.

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #439)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:46 AM

443. Please explain why it was not complex to destroy 90% of the stockpile...

Which is what the U.S. claims, but it is ohhhh so so complex to destroy the last 10%.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #443)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 12:22 PM

451. Although I am a scientist by education...

and have had numerous chemistry classes, I do not know the process of how these chemicals are destroyed.

As for why 90% are already destroyed and 10% are not, I can only speculate. There may have been other types of chemical weapons in other locations that were easier to destroy; I don't know. Mustard gas is stored at the Army Depot here and will be disposed of in another manner from the Sarin/VX gas.

I would imagine there are numerous considerations. In Central Kentucky, the dangers posed by the chemical weapons, both in storage and in destruction, created a very vocal and lengthy debate, as did the securing of a location to build a facility to destroy the weapons. For years there was talk of moving the containers from this area and but the safety of moving the sarin and VX, which had been leaking in storage until the bunkers were repaired, created a controversy on its own. Decisions were pushed back as the public voiced their concerns.

There is also the issue of the viability of the Bluegrass Army Depot...rumored to be closing at one point. We would all be naive if we thought that the politics of revenue and jobs didn't play a part in this. As for the jobs created by destruction facility currently under construction...well, if you lived in that county, you might be grateful for a job that could last for a few years.

Again, I fully recognize the mistakes of our government, and the fact that many, many issues get pushed aside for political reasons. But let me say again, the fact is 90% of the gas, which you admitted, is destroyed, and plans are underway for the remaining 10% to follow.

I am thankful for that.

One last comment, if you are in some way speculating the remaining 10% is being kept for more sinister reasons, so the military will have such weapons to use, I don't buy that premise. The debate to remove and destroy the weapons at Bluegrass AD has been going on for way too long, extended by the public. The community wanted assurances the destruction of the gasses would be safe.

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #451)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 12:35 PM

456. Thank you for your comments.

However it seems much of your assumptions rely on taking at face value what the military says. I don't. You said: 90% of the gas, which you admitted, is destroyed. I admitted no such thing. That is why I put the word "claims" in italics.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #456)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 12:53 PM

462. I take nothing at face value...

However, I do know the track record of the Depot and the community on this particular cache of weapons. Is the military telling us everything? Only a fool would believe every thing they hear from the military or the government, since it's all about spin. Are all the members of the community working for the betterment and protection of the community? I seriously doubt it... some may have agendas, especially the business community who wants to keep the jobs and the revenue in their area.

The fact is nothing is perfect, including me. I apoligize for missing the fact you said 'claims.'

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #405)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 12:07 PM

449. Good Article

Thank you for posting. The destruction of chemical weapons is difficult enough to begin with and these weapons are attached to explosives. This is from the article

Blue Grass Army Depot will be the last of nine sites to destroy its chemical weapons. The task is harder there because, unlike other sites, the chemicals are loaded in explosive M55 rockets and corroding projectiles that were meant to be shot out of cannons. The plant under construction will make heavy use of robots and other automated assemblies to separate the explosives and metal from the chemicals. Even with that automation, it will employ about 1,000 people.

The Army plans to heat the VX and sarin in chemical reactors to destroy them. The resulting hydrolysate will contain no detectable toxins. (While no final decision has been made, the mustard agent might be destroyed in a different process.)

Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2013/09/09/2812927/chemicals-allegedly-used-in-syria.html#storylink=cpy

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #405)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 06:26 PM

499. Wow this is good to hear.

Could use a bit of good news about now.

Thankyou CherokeeDem,

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #108)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:09 PM

138. Interesting, this aspect.

Do you have a link handy?

Also... how do we *know* 90% is destroyed. I mean does the UN send inspectors to Nevada, or wherever?

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #138)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 10:15 PM

153. Not the UN, it's a separate entity cooperating with the UN.

OPCW: http://www.opcw.org/

CMA controls the destruction of our chemical weapons (and yes the OPCW inspects our sites and reports to the UN): http://www.cma.army.mil/

The reason the deadline got pushed up is because Bush delayed funding for the program: http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/us-chemical-weapons-disposal-slippage-no-surprise-expert-says/

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #153)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 09:09 AM

403. I agree with you.

But best of all I like your tag line.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #108)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:11 PM

232. So what's the shelf life of some of these chemical weapons?

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #232)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:24 PM

249. Sarin, mixed, very short. Mustard gas, very long.

I don't know about VX and others...probably inbetween.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #232)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:25 PM

252. The stuff we gave Saddam had a maximum shelf life of 8 to 10 years.

 

The use by date, was long past when we invaded Iraq. And we acted as it there was no expire date. Most of what was left was basically harmless.

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Response to RC (Reply #252)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:39 PM

272. Yeah, Saddam buried his stuff.

And the inspectors said that while it wasn't disposed of properly it was still effectively destroyed / harmless.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #272)

Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:47 PM

280. He also did destroy most of it.

 

But neglected to do the proper paper work to prove it. That proved to be a bit short sighted.

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Response to RC (Reply #280)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 08:31 AM

389. If I remember correctly, he agreed to allow the UN inspectors back in...

Just shortly before we attacked.

What kind of a moron would brag about having destroyed all of their weapons - when they have hostile neighbors?

He was railroaded, there wasn't anything Saddam Hussein could do. The decision to attack Iraq was made when the Supreme Court ruled that Dubya won in 2000.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #389)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 09:34 AM

407. Actually, the decision was made well before that.

 

William Jefferson Clinton winning the Presidency, messed up their plans. One of the reason the Saddam's WMD were out dated and useless, by the time the Neocons got their chance again, eight years later.
You are correct Saddam was railroaded. We helped put Saddam in power to maintain stability in the region. Of that he did do a good job. Baghdad was safe at night. Women could drive, teach in the universities, hold high positions in both government and private enterprise. Saddam suffered terrorists poorly. There were no terrorist in the areas Saddam controlled. Baghdad was the medical center of the Middle East. Their hospitals were the best in that part of the world. You didn't need insurance either. And don't forget the World Class Museum, housing artifacts tens of thousands of years old. They were either destroyed or reside in private collections or rich people, around the world now. Our invading army stood by and watched as the museum was being looted. However, we did guard the Oil Ministry building, to prevent any damage to it or it's contents.
Why the Raa, Raa, Raa, USA, USA,USA! by some, is beyond me.

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Response to RC (Reply #407)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:24 AM

438. Of course you're right on the timeline...

...and they (the neo-cons) were very transparent about their intentions in the Middle East. Dubya talked about attacking Iraq during the 2000 debates.

I wonder how many (if any) of the people who were so insistent that we attack Iraq still believe it was necessary and a good idea. I'm amazed that my 'friends' on Facebook think that Dubya was a good president. I would have thought, on the twelfth anniversary of the attack on the World Trade Center - that his pure unadulterated buffoonery was evident to everyone.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #438)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 12:22 PM

452. PNAC also targeted Syria.

Several original signers of the PNAC letter, Will Marshall for one,
were also the original founders of the conservative Democratic Leadership Council using Koch Brothers money.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #344)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 02:30 AM

345. Seen it.

Putin should be so lucky that the US allowed them back to the table. They're the ones causing the issue to begin with, delaying action for years.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #345)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 02:31 AM

346. what were they saying about Putin when Snowden.....

aw never mind.....not EVEN worth it

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Response to Skittles (Reply #346)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 02:32 AM

347. I state only facts.

Russia has been stopping diplomatic action for the past few years. They're to blame for the 100k dead Syrians, particularly as Russia is selling arms to Syria.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #347)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 02:33 AM

348. hey, I hear you

I was being sarcastic

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Response to Skittles (Reply #348)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 02:36 AM

349. Oh, OK, Russia is already against a UN plan:

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #349)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 02:49 AM

350. the plot thickens

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #347)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:46 AM

442. +1,000 nt

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