What kind of coward is Edward Snowden?

[backscatter712]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/02/1220718/-What-Kind-Of-Coward-Is-Edward-Snowden

What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden?
by danbojangles

Exactly what kind of coward is Edward Snowden?

Let’s analyze this through a series of questions.

What kind of coward would decide, at only 29 years old, to single-handedly expose, and subsequently challenge, the most powerful, sophisticated, technologically-advanced government in the history of the world?

What kind of coward would willingly/consciously abandon:
The comforts of a lifestyle afforded by a job paying roughly $200,000 a year?
A home in Hawaii, shared by a girlfriend?
All intimate relationships with family, friends, and loved ones (including the aforementioned girlfriend)?
The stability/familiarity of living in the country of your birth, and native language?

What kind of coward, at 29 years old, would consciously/willfully challenge arguably the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world to employ surveillance technology of unfathomable complexity in what’s sure to become a manhunt of epic proportions?

What kind of coward would choose to invite that manhunt in a country or continent with which they were largely unfamiliar?

...

ANSWER:

The kind of coward you could only hope to be.

[peacebird]

1. Plus 1000!

[BehindTheCurtain76]

255. THANK YOU!!!

Yes...the only ones who can't see that are trolling in support of a 1984 As-Evil-As-It Gets Police State and essentially are no different than the Bush-Ites.

[leftstreet]

2. DURec

[Catherina]

3. Perfect n/t

[Fantastic Anarchist]

257. Very, very nice.

[Go Vols]

280. +1

[Tx4obama]

4. Snowden turned 30 years old two Fridays ago. He is a FELONIOUS CRIMINAL running to CHINA/RUSSIA

... lying thieving COWARD.

The sooner he is arrested the better!!!

[Harmony Blue]

7. I too am 30 years old

lets just say when my generation grabs reigns of this country we intend to fix the damage done. The gauntlet has been laid down take heed as the young grass hoppers are coming of age.

[Luminous Animal]

17. Um. Your generation should be trying to grab the reigns now from dog catcher to school board to

alderman to supervisor to judge to assemblyman.

[Harmony Blue]

24. No

we have nothing to lose. Our economic future is dim or non existent. That is why urgency is imperative as we are the catalyst of change not a single man.

[Luminous Animal]

39. How do you intend to grab those reigns if you don't actually do the work to grab those reigns.

[Harmony Blue]

45. Productivity is up, wages are down

population average is growing older. youth are highly unemployed, underpaid or overworked. The 1% pits us against one another but it is clear Snowden ruffled their feathers.

[sabrina 1]

97. You are right, it is the young who will change things, it always is. And from what I see,

they are far more informed about what is going on than the old partisans who are stuck in misdirected loyalty and trust in their 'team'. Although a lot of them too are seeing way more than they wanted to.

[Luminous Animal]

136. Grreat strategy. How does any of that facilitate you grabbing the reigns?

[HiPointDem]

167. reins

[Luminous Animal]

175. Indeed.

[HiPointDem]

177. 'nuf said.

[Blanks]

258. The 'Reigns of terror'. You're missing the point entirely. eom

[calimary]

252. I think the point was - your best bet is to start building your own infrastructure.

And yes, you start at alderman, dog catcher, school board, and you land those. Then you you start your climb from there - gaining allies, experience, resume credits, supporters, financiers, and more. You make it to mayor, maybe then state legislature (actually I hope that's where you DO go - to the state legislature. Our lovely Dems have somehow managed to neglect the state governments - and look at the mess we have now! Wisconsin, Florida, Maine, Michigan, Texas, Indiana, Kansas, North Carolina - all republi-CON led, and look what they're doing! Sweet God in Heaven, LOOK WHAT THEY'RE DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have to take those states BACK!!! There aren't enough Democrats in the state legislatures to stop this Neanderthal republi-CON Bronze-Age-mentality crap anymore! It's like a tidal wave of pus-filled, necrotic shit gushing across the country!!!

That's where we really need you!!! Aim high enough where you can make a realistic, practical difference! Don't mount a Presidential campaign where you'll get a few thousand votes and a whole lot of sneers and adverse media coverage that set you back - and set ALL OF US along back with you.

Believe me, we're with you, Harmony Blue! You ARE our future. My kids are both in their early 20s now. We've had discussions like this many times. I've found myself apologizing to them for the mess we couldn't clean up, and telling them it's up to their generation now.

[MADem]

21. Well, you need to get off the computer, do a little hard work, move up the ladder,

make yourself a viable entity that people will consider giving a bit of responsibility to, and learn to spell those reins you intend to grab.

When I was thirty I was one of those "kids" with reins--I was employed by Uncle Sam, trusted with millions of dollars worth of equipment, responsible for the safety and security of hundreds of souls, and I had a high level clearance. I never once felt the urge to run to China and spill my guts...if I had a problem, I took it up my chain of command and didn't stop until I got satisfaction.

Throwing a fit, like a child in a supermarket aisle, is a cowardly thing to do. If not cowardly, then it's the product of brain damage--perhaps frontal lobe lesions as a consequence of epilepsy--or mental illness.

[Harmony Blue]

33. I do not identify myself by my occupation

that is a trap many older males fall into, and when they judge their social worth on their occupation. I am a citizen and I can make a difference at the local level. The old power structure belief you need socio-economic status to make a difference is a trap.

Don't fall for it.

[MADem]

68. Why am I not surprised?

I'll bet, thirty years from now, you won't be identifying yourself by your occupation, either.

It's just a hunch, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "socio-economic status."

[HiPointDem]

169. what a nasty post, & completely unprovoked.

[MADem]

171. You obviously didn't read the thread if that's your POV.

Then again, you often don't, I've noticed.

[HiPointDem]

173. I read your exchange with harmony blue from beginning to end. Your nasty personal remarks

were completely unprovoked.

[MADem]

179. You're certainly an expert on nasty personal remarks, based on previous interactions with you. nt

[HiPointDem]

191. you made nasty unprovoked personal remarks about harmony blue. your comments about me

are pure projection.

[MADem]

213. And here you come, to save the day....

Get over yourself. Your motives are transparent.

[HiPointDem]

232. my motive is always to note who turned the conversation to the personal.

[MADem]

239. Yes, indeedy. That's precisely your motive!! No doubt! nt

[HiPointDem]

240. yes. it is.

[MADem]

242. No doubt.

[Enthusiast]

221. Your perception rings true, HiPointDem.....nt

[Romulus Quirinus]

70. *thumbs up* nt

[Thinkingabout]

82. Experience and time has many lessons for you, hope for your sake you use those lessons well.

[Hydra]

37. Haha

So what would you have done if you found what Snowden did? Would we have ever found out about it if you went up your chain of command?

Hint: Senators Udall and Wyden have been trying for years to get us this info legally. Sibel Edmonds was similarly silenced. Hell, even the FISA court tried to stop this, and the ruling has been kept from us.

[MADem]

59. What do you mean, found out what Snowden did? If I worked at his work center and knew

he'd sashayed out the door with thumb drives and compters, I'd make sure his ass was arrested. He wouldn't have gotten to the gate of the facility, never mind Hong Kong, Russia or who-knows-where.

Snowden should have "hint, hint" GONE to Senators Udall and Wyden, then, shouldn't he have? If you knew all about their urgent desire for the particular information possessed by Egdy Ed, surely Eddie the Smartest Guy in The Room must have, as well, no? NO?

Eddie is a bullshitter, and he didn't 'read' his audience at all. He took that job to steal information--that fact can't be whitewashed away.

He thought he'd be greeted as a liberator--that isn't happening...except in a small corner of "Fight The Power" DU, full of contrarians, newbies, and people who come and go, who never ever met a troublemaker, a fringe-spinner, or a scold they didn't like, and who always think the stupid way, the hard way, the "doomed to failure" way, is better than simply going to the Senate Intel Oversight crew and stating a case to them.

Simplicity is elegance. But it doesn't bring fame or headlines. Or that urgently needed drama, either....

[Th1onein]

67. Wahahahaha!

Snowden should have gone to Wyden and Udall? You've GOT to be kidding us!

What could they have done? What ARE they doing NOW with the knowledge that, even now, they cannot disclose except to say that the American people would be outraged?

Surely, you jest!

[MADem]

72. You have a squirrel in your pocket? "Us?" Try reading the conversation before you hurt

yourself 'wahaha-ing.'

I can tell you've never testified in camera at a Senate Intel meeting. And I will bet I'm safe in surmising that you never, ever will, either.

You'd be surprised what our elected representatives can do--if you approach the right ones....

And don't call me Shirley...

[Th1onein]

80. So Wyden and Udall have been successful in revealing these abuses?

I think not.

Wyden and Udall have been trying to tell us about this program for YEARS and look at where it's gotten them! Nowhere. Period. And they ARE the "proper channels."

Drake also tried go through the "proper channels," and he was prosecuted and his career ruined.

And, by the way, I'm reading the conversation, but honey, your ball ain't bouncing.

[MADem]

98. Now you're just being creative.

Unless you are a high level aide to Wyden or Udall you're just chatting about stuff you can't possibly know a thing about. Are they "in Gitmo?" Or are their legislative overtures just not meeting with success? One is not the same as another.

You keep your bouncing ball--it sure ain't a crystal one, that's for sure.

[Th1onein]

160. How utterly stupid.

They've been warning us for YEARS, and I don't see that anything has changed. In fact, now, they're saying "I told you so."

Whether it's the fact that their "legislative overtures" are just not meeting with success or something else, what difference does it make? We're still being spied on! They've been able to do NOTHING.

I don't blame Snowden for not taking the "proper" route. What good has it done ANYONE before him?

[MADem]

178. Well, maybe they need to get off their "warning" asses and pass some laws.

Congress makes law. They made the laws that allowed for collection of intelligence. They hold the key--not "NSA" and not "Evil Obama" and not a co-conspirator to be named later.

I'm not sure what you are crabbing about. If the "goal" is to reveal malfeasance, then previous whistleblowers HAVE had success on that score. The problem with some of them is that they break the law in stupid ways--like going to the press, giving stuff to our enemies, bringing classified material home to show to reporters, all things that could earn them a stretch in the pokey, or at least charges of mishandling classified that will likely end, best case, in a long probationary period.

Any whistleblower who thinks that tearing down the place where they work is going to earn them a Greeted As A Liberator badge from their fellow workers--who may well be out of work by such revelations--is soft in the head. A whistleblower pretty much knows that they're tooting because they don't like what they are seeing, and they're willing to lose their job over it. If they think otherwise, they're fools. It's not about payday, it's about principle. That's a pretty self-evident truth.

[JDPriestly]

91. What do you think about the fact that Clapper lied.

Sirota wrote an article in Slate about it.

First Clapper said he answered the question in the committee hearing by giving the least untruthful answer.

Then he said that he had misunderstood the question.

Actually, I believe it was Wyden who had sent the question in writing to Clapper before he appeared at the hearing. It is very difficult to believe that Clapper misunderstood the question.

The NSA is arrogant, and the people who work for them feel themselves to be privileged. And all this information combined with their hubris is very dangerous for what is left of our democracy.

The NSA needs some light shined on it as to all of our intelligence agencies.

[MADem]

106. I don't think anything about it.

I think the correct answer to the gotcha question he was asked was this:

I would like to answer your question completely and honestly, but I ask that I be allowed to do so in closed session.

That whole hearing was a public show; no light, no heat, lotsa noise.

The NSA may well be "arrogant," but that doesn't make Snowden anything less than a thief, and maybe a full-blown spy. I think he might need an MRI. Adult onset epilepsy can be accompanied by frontal lobe lesions that cause personality changes, judgment issues, and intelligence gaps.

Who's paying that boy's bills, I wonder? The Novotel Hotel in the sterile area is three hundred bucks a night. You can't get room service for less than fifty bucks.

If our democracy was in the "what's left of" stage, you wouldn't be whining at me on DU about this matter. They'd have already busted down your door and dragged you, flailing and shrieking, from the loving arms of your distraught family, to be "disappeared," never to be seen again...or if your family was lucky and some official took pity on them, they'd leave your body wrapped up outside the gate for your loved ones to claim.

That hasn't happened, though. And it's not going to, either. I've lived in countries where that shit happened all the time, so I find the drama of people who don't really understand the difference a bit .... amusing.

[JDPriestly]

116. Read the book, They thought they were free.

Most people never noticed the fact that they were living in a totalitarian state in NAZI Germany -- at least most of them did not discuss it. They were caught up in the propaganda and trying to fend for a living as the Great Depression gripped them in the 30s when Hitler began slowly to heat the water in the pot in which the German people were slowly cooking.

[MADem]

119. Sorry...Godwin. I'm out. You just can't tell me that the US is like a country where

your neighbor disappears, and a week later you're at a funeral and everyone is freaking out. I've BTDT--if this place was so awful, they'd have broken down your door by now.

[Agschmid]

121. Yup. n/t

[Forgot10Hiro]

166. Wow, so snowden is a bad man for telling the truth.

And clapper is a 'victim' who was posed with a 'gotcha' question....
Amazing how being a true partisan can warp the mind...

[MADem]

180. No. Snowden is an enigma at this stage--he could be a double agent, he could be

suffering from mental illness, he could have brain damage from epilepsy, or he could just be an idiot who didn't think his grand plan through and is now sitting in Moscow in his funky skivvies, trolling the internet for news about himself.

Clapper was a nitwit--he should have asked for closed session and not succumbed to pressure to respond in a highly politicized environment.

Amazing how your enthusiasm to paint everyone you encounter with "partisan" colors makes you look less than credible. Your eagerness is showing.

Have a nice day, now.

[Forgot10Hiro]

200. It gets even worse

So now you're making ad hominem attacks on Snowden.

And saying that Clappers only mistake was lying to congress in a public forum instead of behind closed doors. Well that's transparency for you I guess...

Amazing how you would remotely consider yourself a progressive and support fascism over openness?!

[MADem]

211. You can't argue to save your life.

"Ad hominem attacks"--bet you think you're cool, trying to shut down discussion with that old chestnut!

And my point was--you're clearly too narrowly focused to see what is obvious to anyone else--that Clapper would not have to lie in closed session. You do realize--no, I guess you don't--that everyone in the room during closed session has a TS/SCI?

Keep accusing me--or anyone else here--of fascism, and see where it gets you.

[Forgot10Hiro]

267. I don't think pointing out the obvious is an accusation...

If I say water is wet and the sun is bright it is just because it is.

[MADem]

269. Are you doubling down and repeating your accusation that I am a "fascist" because I don't see things

your way?

It's clear you don't understand the meaning of THAT term, either.

[Forgot10Hiro]

273. It's clear to me that you have a reading comprehension problem. nt.

[MADem]

276. Mirror, mirror!

You might want to check yours!

[Hydra]

71. Wow

I was asking what YOU would do if you found out that you had direct access to the NSA databases or everyone's communications, collected in defiance of constitutional law. Would you go up the "chain of command" at Booz Allen? Would you have reported it at all?

Senators Udall and Wyden are not willing to break the law to leak anything, so they couldn't have helped. The Obama Admin supports this. The Judicial Branch pretends it's not even happening. Where would you have gone?

[MADem]

78. I am not convinced that this guy's information is accurate.

He was there for four weeks. Four short weeks. He's come out with a FISA warrant that does not say what he claims it said, and a powerpoint presentation that first, looks like a "Welcome Aboard" brief, and second, also doesn't say what he claims it says.

So I'm not sure why you are spinning like mad--I don't believe the guy. You, apparently, despite everyone and their mother saying "The guy has it all wrong," choose to believe Dreamy Eddie with his soulful eyes and his fuzzy 'day old' facial hair that probably took him a month to grow.

I think you don't understand the power of US Senators -- they don't have to break the law, they don't have to "leak" anything, they can fix shit. In case you're unclear on the concept, LEGISLATORS MAKE LAW.

It's what we send them to the Hill to do.

[Th1onein]

87. Obviously, they CAN'T "fix" shit.

Because these two, at least, have been sounding the alarm for years, and yet "shit" is not "fixed."

Drake sounded the alarm, through the proper legislative channels and he was prosecuted, and his life was ruined.

That dog don't hunt.

[MADem]

139. Well, when lawmakers can't legislate, perhaps they need replacing.

Waaah, waaah, they won't let me isn't the right answer.

Who makes law? Congress. Not NSA.

That dog does hunt.

Drake communicated with the media, mishandled classified material, but his life was NOT ruined. If it were ruined, he'd be on the first half of a twenty year sentence. Instead, charges were dropped.

He was fortunate to have dealt with Bush's DOD IG, and they were a bunch of lawless pigs, so his excesses as a consequence of frustration were made more understandable. Also, he kept beating the horse long after it was dead, after the program he was protesting had been shelved as unworkable...that's probably why he was regarded as no longer a good fit for the agency.

But Drake isn't the subject here, nor is Binney or any other NSA overreach complainer. The subject is Snowden. Snowden is no Drake, and he's no Binney. Neither one of them left the country, and neither one of them was, or will be, jailed.

Snowden has got other issues. What they are, time will tell.


.

[Th1onein]

154. Sorry, but you are dead ass wrong.

"Waaah, waaah, they won't let me isn't the right answer." <<<This? We've been hearing this for years, from Congress, and I, for one, am fucking well sick of it.

If we sit here and let people like you smear the messenger, we're going to miss the boat. They've spied on US, every one of us. They've stored our messages, our emails, our texts, our phone calls, and I'm SICK of making it about Snowden.

IT'S NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN.

It's about spying on us. Period.

As for Drake, that's a lie. Go and get an education about what happened to him and then come back and talk to us.

[MADem]

181. Don't be sorry, and no, I'm not wrong.

Congress makes law. Not Moscow Eddie, who so far has said that his "stuff" says one thing, when it fact it says nothing of the sort.

Eddie isn't an honest broker. And it IS about Snowden--if it wasn't there wouldn't be so many threads about him. He hasn't proven a thing he's claimed, in fact, his documents refute some of his own assertions. So sorry back at ya, it IS about him, because the messenger has a 'message' problem--his collars and cuffs don't match.

And "that's a lie" isn't the truth because you say so. You might want to go do a little reading yourself.

[Hydra]

100. LOL

I'm going to make some corrections for you:

Warrant:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order

SECONDARY ORDER
This Court having found that the Application of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI) for an Order requiring the production of tangible things from
Verizon Business Network Services, Inc. on behalf of MCI Communication Services
Inc., d/b/a Verizon Business Services (individually and collectively "Verizon&quot
satisfies the requirements of 50 U.S.C. ? 1861,
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that, the Custodian of Records shall produce to the
National Security Agency (NSA) upon service of this Order, and continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this Order, unless otherwise
ordered by the Court, an electronic copy of the following tangible things: all call detail
records or "telephony metadata" created by Verizon for communications (i) between
the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local
telephone calls. This Order does not require Verizon to produce telephony metadata
for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.

<snip>

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that no person shall disclose to any other person that
the FBI or NSA has sought or obtained tangible things under this Order, other than to:
(a) those persons to whom disclosure is necessary to comply with such Order; (b) an
attorney to obtain legal advice or assistance with respect to the production of things in
response to the Order; or (c) other persons as permitted by the Director of the FBI or the
Director's designee. A person to whom disclosure is made pursuant to (a), (b), or (c) shall be subject to the nondisclosure requirements applicable to a person to whom an
Order is directed in the same manner as such person. Anyone who discloses to a
person described in (a), (b), or (c) that the FBI or NSA has sought or obtained tangible
things pursuant to this Order shall notify such person of the nondisclosure
requirements of this Order. At the request of the Director of the FBI or the designee of
the Director, any person making or intending to make a disclosure under (a) or (c)
above shall identify to the Director or such designee the person to whom such
disclosure will be made or to whom such disclosure was made prior to the request.

So, let's review. All data requested(everyone), not even a nod toward "Probable cause" which makes it a 4th Amendment violation, and you can't say anything about it except to the NSA or the FISA court.

Am I missing something about how this was not important?

Regarding Udall and Wyden:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/us/politics/senators-wyden-and-udall-warned-about-surveillance.html?_r=0

Yet shackled by strict rules on the discussion of classified information, Mr. Wyden and Mr. Udall, members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence could not — and still cannot — offer much more than an intimation about their concerns. They had to be content to sit in a special sealed room, soak in information that they said appalled and frightened them, then offer veiled messages that were largely ignored.

But after the disclosure of an April court order directing a subsidiary of the phone giant Verizon to turn over to the National Security Agency logs of virtually every business phone communication “between the United States and abroad” or “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” Mr. Wyden acknowledged that the surveillance effort outlined “is one that I have been concerned about for years.”

<snip>

Mr. Udall was almost rueful he had not done more.

“I acted in every possible way short of leaking classified information,” he said. “I’m not going to do that.” He added, “I only wish the administration had been the first to tell the American people about this program.”

Intel Committee and Classified Briefing rules do not permit them to talk about what they've seen. The Intel Committee has the weight of too many Senators that have no problem with what the NSA is doing. Yes, they know. No, they can't talk about it. No, they don't have the votes in the Intel Committee.

So now that I've laid out the problem, what would you have done in Snowden's place? Would we have even heard from you?

[MADem]

188. LOL, someone still doesn't know what METADATA is. nt

[JDPriestly]

88. If Snowden had gone to Udall or Wyden, they would have still been sworn to silence.

In fact, perhaps he did go to them.

Snowden is not the first whistleblower to suggest that this program exists. He is perhaps the first to prove it, and certainly the first, as far as I know to grab headlines in all major newspapers. And the reason for his grabbing our attention so successfully is that he went to Hong Kong with the data and the documents to prove his story. Had he talked to Udall and Wyden and left it at that, he would have been silenced.

The world has changed so drastically in that last 20 years. Our experiences 20 years ago are not relevant to this computer world we live in.

It's not just the US. Think of what has happened in Egypt. Unthinkable 20 years ago. Just unthinkable.

This is a new age.

[MADem]

186. I'll bet you a donut he didn't go to ANYONE on ANY Intel Committee. EVER.

Not even the son of his hero--Rand Paul...who is ON Intel Oversight. What better person to approach, from his political perspective?

If we rule out the epilepsy, and personality changes that sometimes accompany that condition, it could very well be that he was running from the news that the shit was about to hit the fan--that his phony clearance was about to blow up in his face.

[Scootaloo]

109. "contrarians, newbies, and people who come and go"

C'mon MADem, you're above this no true scotsman bullshit, surely.

"Ooooh, those outside elements are causing all the trouble!" - when you start talking like Hosni Mubarak, you might want to re-examine your arguments.

[MADem]

124. Look at the ones who are stirring the shit with the greatest glee.

By their words we shall know them.

I don't think that the NSA are a bunch of boy scouts, but Snowden is an asshole and an idiot who doesn't have his facts in order. Something is wrong with that boy, and I imagine we'll find out what it is soon enough.

[Forgot10Hiro]

161. Bwhahaha!!! I laughed when you suggested that Snowden go to the enablers to fix their own mistakes.

Thanks for the laugh.

[MADem]

183. Well, it's obvious that you're easily amused.

Say hello to your buddies at your other internet haunt.

And enjoy your stay here at DU.

[Forgot10Hiro]

201. Please stop it with the vague internet threat, don't you know that the NSA is listening to you.

USA! USA! USA!

[MADem]

210. Welcome to DU and enjoy your visit with us. Vague internet threat, indeed!

[Forgot10Hiro]

268. I laugh for no reason at all to.

Especially when I'm insecure about my comments...

[MADem]

270. Well, you should be insecure--you are conducting yourself in a rude fashion.

Why don't you toss the "F" word at me again, that'll make you feel brave, I'm sure.

[Forgot10Hiro]

274. False indignation doesn't strengthen your lack of an argument. NT

[MADem]

275. First you get mad because I am laughing, now you insist I am indignant.

I think maybe you need to stop worrying about the feelings of others, and worry about your OWN arguments!



For the record, I remain amused. You are entirely predictable.

[sabrina 1]

229. Well, it looks like Eddie would have outsmarted you. Apparently he anticipated someone

'arresting his ass' and took precautions to prevent that from happening. Big talk on the internet about what we would have done, doesn't change a thing.

You are obsessed with the messengers it seems while the rest of the world is focused on the message.

Drake went to the 'Senate Intel Oversight Crew'. He took all the steps laid out in the rule book for Whistle Blowers in a text book example of what was required of him. As a result, a phony case was filed against him which was clearly meant to send a message to others that no matter how right you may be, you do not challenge the status quo.

It was dropped the night before it was supposed to begin, and was clearly meant to intimidate other potential Whistle Blowers. Obviously it failed, but it did make clear that the 'come into my parlor said the spider to the fly' like invitation to 'follow the rules, is not a choice anymore.

Between what happened to Manning, torture, and Drake, punished despite following all the rules, apparently 'Eddie' learned some good lessons. Which is why one of the State Dept's more intelligent employees, Crowley finally spoke out about the 'stupidity' of treating Manning the way they did.

[MADem]

237. Big talk on the internet? Please.

I was responding, specifically, to a "What would you do?" question. Would you have preferred I offered instead a hearty "Fuck you, I won't respond to your inquiry?" Would that have been preferable?

Drake did not have a hope in hell of being heard, because DOD IG took the "con" on his issue (no doubt at the behest of actors within the Bush administration, for their own reasons) and the other elements to whom he complained were no doubt assured that his issues were being managed. I have said, repeatedly, that DOD IG was at the time the most fucked up, mendacious, lawless, heartless, soulless entity that Washington DC had seen in easily a half century. And that's putting it mildly. Even at that, in 2004, DOD IG prepared (but did not publicly release) a report that agreed with Drake, et. al.--whose complaints were less about the privacy issues and more about the sheer EXPENSE and inefficiency of the program. See http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/capitalcomment/scene/indictment-continues-obama-administrations-war-on-leaks.php for background.

The salient bit:

The three former NSA officials and the congressional staffer were known to government investigators as early as September 2002, when they wrote to the Defense Department’s inspector general that senior NSA leaders had “defrauded the American taxpayer of hundreds and hundreds of millions” by investing in a computer system known as Trailblazer, which was designed to help the NSA pluck valuable clues on terrorist plots from the billions of phone calls, e-mails, and other electronic signals it intercepts on a regular basis.

The former officials and the ex-staffer believed that a rival program, called Thin Thread, could do a better job and would cost “one-tenth or less than the projected several billions of dollars cost of Trailblazer.” They also claimed Thin Thread, which was never fully deployed, was “NSA’s only real chance to have averted the 9/11 intelligence failure” by detecting the communications of the September 11 attackers before they struck.

And that was part of the problem. No one is denying it. The other part of the problem is that, after the report (which was not released) had been completed, Drake went to a reporter and shared material with her. That's where he ran afoul.

He would have been better off, in the climate of corruption that was endemic in the Bush administration, and IF his principal complaint was about PRIVACY, going to John Ashcroft back in 2002, rather than waiting three years and going to the press. Yes, indeed, Attorney General Ashcroft, who, with help from the Director of the FBI and a guy named Comey, achieved a small measure of "privacy rights" fame for fighting off asshole White House emissaries bearing an illegal authorization renewal from his hospital bed.

Remember Ashcroft? The dweeby, dinky wingnutty, on-the-wrong-side-of-most-progressive-issues evangelical who sang "Let the Eagle Soar?" The guy who got the AG job after he lost an election to a dead man?

He was actually a friend to the concept of privacy...but to point that out kind of ruins the narrative! It's much easier to paint him as a looming overlord, too...!

The Awful Truth:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051500864_pf.html

... "He lifted his head off the pillow and in very strong terms expressed his view of the matter, rich in both substance and fact, which stunned me," Comey said. Then, he said, Ashcroft added: "But that doesn't matter, because I'm not the attorney general. There is the attorney general," and pointed at Comey, who was appointed acting attorney general when Ashcroft fell ill.

Later, Card ordered an 11 p.m. meeting at the White House. But Comey said he told Card that he would not go on his own, pulling then-Solicitor General Theodore Olson from a dinner party to serve as witness to anything Card or Gonzales told him. "After the conduct I had just witnessed, I would not meet with him without a witness present," Comey testified. "He replied, 'What conduct? We were just there to wish him well.' "

The next day, as terrorist bombs killed more than 200 commuters on rail lines in Madrid, the White House approved the executive order without any signature from the Justice Department certifying its legality. Comey responded by drafting his letter of resignation, effective the next day, March 12.

"I couldn't stay if the administration was going to engage in conduct that the Department of Justice had said had no legal basis," he said. "I just simply couldn't stay." Comey testified he was going to be joined in a mass resignation by some of the nation's top law enforcement officers: Ashcroft, Mueller, Ayres and Comey's own chief of staff.

Ayres persuaded Comey to delay his resignation, Comey testified. "Mr. Ashcroft's chief of staff asked me something that meant a great deal to him, and that is that I not resign until Mr. Ashcroft was well enough to resign with me," he said.....

At the end of the day, though, Snowden is no Drake, he's no Comey, he's no -- irony of ironies--Ashcroft. He's a guy who took a job to grab a bunch of shit, and then ran to Hong Kong, land of the free, home of the brave...? If he wasn't being managed by some entity, he's terribly stupid. And no matter how he ended up in a transit terminal in Moscow, he has to be starting to feel that his Grand Plan didn't quite work out the way he intended...he's still desperately looking for a place where he'll be greeted as a liberator--and that's been slow going for him.

[LiberalLovinLug]

236. You are wrong

"He thought he'd be greeted as a liberator--that isn't happening...except in a small corner of "Fight The Power" DU, full of contrarians, newbies, and people who come and go, who never ever met a troublemaker, a fringe-spinner, or a scold they didn't like..."

For one thing, how would you know how he thought he'd be perceived?

Beyond that, you are in fact in the minority from what I've read on DU with your pro-Authoritarian stance. You are also in the tiniest of minorities in the world's populations. German citizens are livid as are other populations that are finding out the extent they have been monitored by the NSA, and appreciate what Snowden has revealed.

You are with the frightened, cowed little group in the corner with the other Authoritarians like the DINO Blue Dogs, GOP and the insufferably ignorant Baggers.

[MADem]

238. Yes, you have a nice day, too. Invective is never a substitute for substance.

Names will never hurt me--nor will they convince me of the "rightness" of your ramblings.

Gee....since the Germans are so "up in arms," where's his asylum documents from Angela Merkel, hmmmm? Or is she a democratically elected, "frightened, cowed...Authoritarian," too? Get back to me when Snowden is given his German safe-passage documents...

[Swagman]

263. I applaud him for sashaying out that door and wish

many more would sashay with him

[sheshe2]

42. +1000!

You MADem...

[JDPriestly]

77. Was the government categorizing, charting and then saving the communications

of virtually all Americans in a database in which you were authorized to search for anyone you wished?

Was the government eavesdropping on our friends as well as on our enemies?

I don't think so. Times have changed. That's why Snowden went public.

The power of the NSA is overwhelming the rest of the government. That is a serious problem.

[MADem]

85. Ooooh, virtually all Americans!

You do NOT know that this is true. You choose to believe a weird guy who has been caught in dozens of lies and misstatements and some pretty squirrely behavior down the years.

You might think you know The Truth and The Way--because Dreamy Eddie said so--but his facts have been out of order more than once, so how about this question:

Was Dreamy Eddie stealing documents willy nilly, hand over fisst, insisting that they say things that they didn't actually say, and getting stupid reporters who didn't understand IT to write up his assertions without vetting or questioning them?


I think Dreamy Eddie has issues.

[rhett o rick]

158. I am curious. Are you the least bit skeptical that our intelligence agencies might be stepping over

the line? Are you the least bit open-minded? There have been more than one person that says there is a problem.

Your name calling "Dreamy Eddie" is indicative of desperation.

[MADem]

185. Certainly. They've done it before, they'll do it again.

But this guy is not The Messenger. His documents are not matching his assertions. He isn't coming from a place of understanding--he barely worked at BAH for four lousy weeks. He didn't come to any grand realization based on the work he was doing. He knew he was going to get caught. He was told there was a "problem" with his clearance and he knew the shit was about to hit the fan.

He lied on his resume, he'd been lying for years, he may have even gotten phony educational documents to join the Army. All that, once they started investigating who did his background checks, going all the way back to his ENTNAC and NAC for his failed Army career, would show a pattern of document falsifying and untruths that would have put him in EXTREME hot water. That, I think, is why he ran. Either that, or he's unwell.

In any event, he's not telling the truth. He's a bullshitter, and I call him "Dreamy Eddie" because that's how he's touted by his acolytes. He's so....cuuuuuuuuute, doncha know! His half-naked pictures are everywhere! Surely that soulful look and that pinched moue are just the thing to make the ladies swoon!

And the one who is desperate is Eddie. Tick tock--he's running out time and places to run TO.

[sabrina 1]

103. Drake 'took it up the chain of command' and was persecuted, had his career destroyed and

not a thing was done about the crimes he reported, taking every step required of Whistle Blowers in the rule book. The young are not blind, they see the writing on the wall. This is a country where no one dares to report war crimes, Wall St. crimes, no matter how much they have done for their country. So from now on, it's more than likely that Whistle Blowers will do what Snowden is doing. It has happened in other countries when it became apparent that justice is not something they can expect.

Seeing what happened to Manning, and we were told 'he should have taken it up the chain of command' etc etc. Well Drake is a text book example of doing things the right way and we saw the result of that.

As Crowley from the State Dept said, and thankfully for Manning's sake, his words ended the torture he was subjected to, that treating Manning the way he was treated was 'just plain stupid'. Now we have the reputation of persecuting Whistle Blowers and seeking asylum is the only thing for anyone who cares enough about this country to report crimes when they see them, to do.

[MADem]

118. Manning stole shit and decked his superior in his chain of command.

She did what she had to do--report his ass, after she'd cut him way too much slack previous to that.

He's not a hero--he's a putz. But Snowden isn't Manning, so it's pointless to try to conflate the two.

As for Drake (who ALSO isn't Snowden, and his circumstances, too, are entirely different), he was griping about a program that was eventually shut down as unworkable and too expensive. He also shared details of the program with media, and, despite being "charged" he wasn't convicted. His career wasn't "ruined" by that, his career was in the shits way before then. And he was a Republican, promoted by Republicans, working in an agency under Republican leadership.


When you choose to whistleblow, you have to be like Caesar's wife. It's best to do your job that way, even if you aren't planning on dropping dimes, but it's even more important if you want to play Paul Revere. That means don't mishandle classified, don't take it home, don't share it with people who don't have a need to know. These things are basic, and time and again, that's what gets people in hot water. That's what bit Drake in the ass--though not really. He was charged, and the charges, save one minor one, were dropped, though they could have been pressed and he could have really had a problem. What probably saved his ass more than anything else is that DOD Inspector General during the Bush era--and that's when he was griping--was a disgusting hotbed of criminality, venality and corruption--it was entirely out of control. There was no watching of the watchers--it was an horrific criminal enterprise in and of itself, that only started to get cleaned up when Gates got in there.

What bit Snowden is that he stole copious amounts of material, willy-nilly, and he took the job for that single, solitary purpose, so he claimed. And everything he asserts to be truth turns out to be not quite accurate.

He's not as smart as he thinks he is. And he's not as honest as some here think he is, either.

[sabrina 1]

134. Drake's case fell apart because there never was a case against him. He has now reached

hero status as did Ellsberg, also persecuted for shining a light on wrong doing in the government, because they were men of courage who took their duties to their country seriously. History corrects these things, it removes the emotion and views the facts.

When history looks back unemotionally at this period when, starting with Bush's 'election' to his lies that got thousands of our troops killed to the torture, the massive crimes committed during his administration, the exposure of the crimes, and then, this country's unwillingness to prosecute the criminals, it will be viewed as one of the darker periods of this country's history. And those who tried to blow the whistle but were persecuted for doing so, will be viewed as heroes.

I love how the goal posts keep moving each time another Whistle Blower comes forward. So many willing to risk everything over the past decade or so. Which shouldn't surprise us Democrats since we knew something had gone terribly wrong, starting in 2000 and growing steadily worse as the years went by. And if the pattern continues, there will be more, and they too will be persecuted until it reaches critical mass and there is no choice but to finally acknowledge the seriousness of the problems facing this country, from inside, and do something about them.

[MADem]

142. Drake's case fell apart because DOD IG was a bunch of mendacious assholes.

They were eventually investigated themselves, and a house cleaning done.

That's really the bottom line. Had they done their job, Drake might not have been so frustrated. He might not have gotten the answers he wanted, but he would have gotten answers--even though the program he was complaining about was shut down as unworkable (given that it didn't stop Nahn Wun Wun, as an example) and horrifically expensive.

[sabrina 1]

146. And the current program didn't stop the Boston Bombers. Drake did the right thing

and was treated like a traitor for doing so. Manning was tortured, and Binney too was treated like a traitor. Just a few of the most recent Whistle Blowers who seem to be increasing as Bush policies continue.

The solution was simple, end those policies and there would be no more Drakes and Snowdens and Binneys and Mannings, Tices et al. There comes a point where a government runs out of excuses, and it is at that point right now. We thought we had started the process of ending Bush policies in 2008. 'Vote for Democrats'. So now what? Not only are Bush policies still in effect many of them have been strengthened. And we have Republicans in a Democratic Administration instead of Democrats, which is what people voted for.

Clearly the people need a new strategy in order to put an end to these Bush policies.

[MADem]

149. Drake was dealing with the Bush era DOD IG.

That's what got him in trouble. And then he got rash, and talked to the press, and took work product home, and mishandled government material.

But this isn't about Drake, who wasn't convicted of anything save a minor probationary charge, and who isn't in jail, and whose career was over before he was charged with anything, anyway.

This is about Snowden. Snowden isn't Drake, or Binney, or Manning. He's Snowden...the guy who wanted to shoot leakers in the balls, who thought the prostitutes of Switzerland were great, who thought he was the smartest short seller of stock in the universe. He was the smartest guy in the room.

The smartest guy in the room is saying one thing, and his "evidence" is not backing him up. That's where the problem lies. He needs to come home and discuss his complaints, and face the music-- not play Where's Waldo around the globe.

As for "policies"--aka laws, Congress makes them. There's your boogiemen, in those two houses...not in the WH.

[sabrina 1]

152. Who prosecuted Drake? Manning? And more importantly, who is prosecuting the War Criminals

and the Wall St. criminals? The main reason we elected Democrats, to restore the rule of law, but that hasn't happened. On the contrary. So what do we do now to end these abuses? There would be no Whistle Blowers if there was accountability for these egregious Bush policies.

[MADem]

212. Who dropped charges on Drake, at the end of the day?

Not that he or Manning have ANYTHING to do with Snowden...

Nor do the "Wall St. criminals" (amazing how there are never any names, just a lumping under a generic name).

If you want "Democrats, to restore the rule of law" spend less of your attention on the Presidential races, and more of your attention on Congressional ones.

Laws are made IN CONGRESS.

Why is it that people here have this idea that Obama is the King and can rule by decree?

[sabrina 1]

217. I can give you names of some of the Wall St. criminals. Funny how people weren't following

those crimes and the exposures and now pretend it never happened. Start with Jamie Dimon and go down the ranks from there.

I agree about the Presidential elections and have said so many, many times. The focus has to be on Congress and all the energy that used to go into what has been a huge distraction until now, the WH race, needs to be put into removing the Corporate puppets from Congress.

Who has the idea that Obama is the King? It's from what we are told, that he has NO powers at all and can't even use the legal options he has as Bush did.

What Obama didn't need to do and where apparently he does have power, was to appoint so many Republicans to his cabinet indicating he has no trust in members of his own party to be in those positions of power. I don't know a single Democrat who voted for Republicans yet we got them anyhow. Maybe that is why Republican policies are still in place.

Drake's case fell apart, it wasn't just dismissed, because there was no case. What he exposed has not yet been investigated, but HE was.

[MADem]

219. EVERYONE has the idea that Obama is King. The Obama - bashing on this board rivals that

of the Freak Reppublik crew or the Paulbot nutz.

If Obama didn't have to get through a confirmation process in barely D Senate, with sufficient R representation to stall if not stop, maybe he wouldn't appoint so many of those Republicans you don't like. He has a country to run--he can't stop his foot and act like a childish shithead, like Bonehead does.

Drake's case went away because he took a plea to mishandling, with a year's probation, AND because, as I have said elsewhere, the entire system--to include his case-- was poisoned by the insane, criminal shit going on at DOD IG. Had there been sane people working at IG, his level of frustration, even if he wasn't "satisfied" with the outcome, might not have been so great.

[Enthusiast]

224. Yes, we certainly did recognize that something had gone terribly wrong.

And the wrong continues. No amount of obfuscation and, "La la la!" will prevent us from seeing the obvious.

God bless the whistle blowers. May ever more of them come forward. Or hide out somewhere.

[Writely Wrong]

26. Let's hope

40 years ago my generation said the same thing. Then most of them turn 30, had kids, started to "earn" tons of money and turned to today's Republicans. What a frigging disappointment.

[Harmony Blue]

47. I don't see a rainbow with a pot of gold

at the end of it in 40 years. Thanks for your concern though!

[BOG PERSON]

57. that's true

a big chunk of your generation is putting off those milestones like homeownership and starting a family, for the simple reason that they can't afford those things

your generation might be the first downwardly-mobile one

[brush]

168. Why run?

He should've stayed and faced the music if he was so principled.

Running negated much of his credibility.

King didn't run. Ghandi didn't run. Ellsberg didn't run. Mandela didn't run.

[hopemountain]

190. peaceably, stealthily, or helter skelter?

you're burnin' daylight...

[jonthebru]

249. Dream on

and ... good luck.

[Caretha]

266. Yes you can and your generation is more powerful than you know

I didn't write this, trying to figure out who did. Resonates deeply though, wake up and take back our planet, our home and live without fear.

" What they did not want you to ever find out is that your generation, the generation born between 1980-1995, actually out numbers the Baby Boomers. They knew that if you ever turned your eye towards political reform, you could change the world. They tried keep you sated on vapid television shows and vapid music. They cut off your education and fed you brain candy. They took away your music and gave you top ten pop stations. They cut off your art and replaced it with endless reality shows for you to plug into, hoping you would sit quietly by as they ran the world. We as a society are only as strong as our weakest link. Give 'em hell kids."

[Progressive dog]

277. How would you dare with all this

authoritarian tyranny?
I associate grasshoppers with locust plagues.

[frylock]

9. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!12

[Pharaoh]

10. Really?

I guess you like bending over

[Scootaloo]

22. I TYPE IN CAPS BECAUSE I DRINK BRAWNDO!

AND BRAWNDO MAKES YOU GOOD AT WINNING!

[awoke_in_2003]

52. Brawndo made me want to go on a run...

[Scootaloo]

81. ...

I'm not going to say anything else

[awoke_in_2003]

89. Did you have a smoke afterwards?...

[Cha]

93. No, unfortunately, it makes you a mocking idiot. nm

[Scootaloo]

96. Mocking idiots is a specialty of mine n/t

[Cha]

172. Yeah, you'd like to think you're the one who's all cool and all but you're

the one who's the idiot mocking another member.

[Scootaloo]

176. Specifically I'm mocking their over-the-top, all-caps jingo festival

FELONIOUS CRIMINAL CHINA / RUSSIA COWARD!

I'VE NEVER SEEN PLANTS GROW OUT OF A TOILET!

[neverforget]

108. Because it's got electrolytes

[HardTimes99]

27. Snowden is the kind of coward you could only hope to be - nt

[Tx4obama]

32. If I had the character that Snowden has I'd jump off of bridge and just end it.

Life in prison for him would be too good.

[HardTimes99]

48. I'll just bet you'd be all down with waterboarding and renditioning him too. As the

Rude Pundit put it so eloquently earlier today;

The Snowden chronicles (and, to a lesser extent, the irrelevant Glenn-Greenwald-is-such-an-asshole attacks) are an enormous distraction from the real stories, the massive extent of spying on Americans without suspicion or warrant (which, the Rude Pundit has said repeatedly, is something that at least deserves a good debate) and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper lying to Congress. And if these things don't matter to you, especially those of you on the left side of the political wall, if you think "security" has been compromised or some such shit that hasn't been demonstrated at all, well, congratulations. You're finally on the side of George W. Bush, John Yoo, Dick Cheney, and other assorted war criminals.

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/07/random-thoughts-on-nsa-secrets-and.html

How's it feel to make common cause with Cheney and Yoo?

[Tx4obama]

66. LOL you're funny and you have no clue about what I think or believe about any other...

... issue than the one I've commented on.

Please proceed with the conversation you are having with yourself in your head.

Goodnight

[Th1onein]

73. But you're making it very clear to us what you think, TX4obama!

Very clear.

Why don't you take this opportunity to enlighten us on how disappointed you are in the current administration for allowing the wholesale spying on Americans? Hmmm?

[sheshe2]

110. You

come onto a Democratic board and say a member has common cause with Cheney and Yoo. Really?

The man stole secrets and then high tailed it out of the US of A. He did not stand for the principals that he says he believed in. He ran and spilled his guts to our enemies.

How's it feel to make common cause with Cheney and Yoo?

As for the massive attacks, you are referring to, the ones that we have know about since 2006. Correct?

Oh yea I do believe security was compromised...by Snowden! The day he decided to sell US intelligence to our enemy, we were compromised. Do you in fact have first hand knowledge as to what were in those computers. Do you know beyond a doubt that lives will not be comprimised. No you do not!

[RC]

28. So you approve of the secret wholesale spying continued for the criminal bu$h administration?

It would appear so.

[Marr]

46. My god, you're right! That DOES mean mass surveillance is ok! /nt

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Are you opposed to massive domestic surveillance programs?

[nineteen50]

54. He never should have been born

except in Texas by law.

[Th1onein]

58. Wow, you seem to be extremely angry!

Something caught in your craw, TX4Obama?

Hmmm?

[still_one]

112. You don't understand that when someone steals government secrets, then runs to China to

And shares all the secrets to our adversaries, and releases that information during key talks with with the Chinese with the sole intent of hurting the country, and subsequently released specific information during G20, and other international events to further hurt the country.

This is more than about domestic spying, which is a valid issue, but to compromise our relations with other countries

Snowden is a traitor the moment he he went from domestic spying, to hurting us internationally, and there are people who believe that it is wrong to hurt our country internationally

[Th1onein]

157. HEY! DOES IT MATTER THAT THEY ARE SPYING ON YOU?

Does that matter AT ALL? AT ALL?

Snowden didn't hurt us internationally, except to tell the truth about what we are doing, all the while we are accusing others of doing it to us.

I, for one, feel like I've been fucking raped. Sorry, but I do. And when some idiot starts talking about it being about Snowden, or Greenwald, or about how "hurt" we've been, it makes me furious.

You should be furious, too.

[still_one]

189. SORRY, BUT ONCE HE WENT INTERNATIONAL, THAT SEALED HIM AS A TRAITOR PERIOD

and as far as you feeling that you got raped, then support candidates that you agree with

That is an insult to people who really do get raped

What drama


Typical libertarian green bullshit

[Th1onein]

198. Wow! An ad hominem attack. Why am I not surprised?

Drama indeed. Why not talk about the issue? Your government is spying on you. Is that okay with you just because a Democrat is at the helm?

And, by the way, you ever been raped? Well, I have, and I think that qualifies me to compare the two.

[reusrename]

197. This sounds like projection.

Snowden merely exposed what is going on. He is not the one responsible for the abuses. He is not the one to blame here. Had there been no lying to Congress he would never have felt the need to speak up.

You are projecting your anger about this onto someone who didn't do anything wrong.

His actions were as American as apple pie. Why is that such a difficult admission to make?

[BOG PERSON]

62. i love your passion

[still_one]

101. +1

[wtmusic]

122. Ruh Roh...CAPITALS. Does someone feel threatened? nt

[Logical]

153. Lol, hard to tell if you could really be serious. n-t

[Forgot10Hiro]

159. which part makes him a criminal

Traveling to Russia or Hong Kong. No I don't think that there's anything criminal about that?

Uhhhmmm perhaps reporting on the illegal actions of the government and failing to report such actions to the criminals that were committing the crimes...

Yep... sounds like a hero to me.

[sibelian]

208. Yes! He is FELONIOUS. We should all call him Edward "FELONIUS" Snowden from now on.

Hey, hey tx, I've got an even beter one - howsabouat FELLATIOUS? Edward "FELLATIOUS" Snowden! lol

Awesome word, "felonious". Best capitalised.

[kardonb]

223. coward

the guy is a TRAITOR ! The sooner he meets justice , the better .

[Maven]

225. OMG HE'S MAKING ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE THINGS ABOUT OBAMA!

LOCK HIM UP!

LOCK HIM UP NOW!!!11!

[lark]

233. So, if the government does it, then it's OK with you?

I, for one, am glad that Snowden took the courageous action he did. Makes me sad that so many on this board are so engulfed in Obama's cult of personality that they don't see what's happening under their own noses and attack some guy because he told the truth.

[freemay20]

259. Can't get it out

Well it appears one can not get the inborn Texas ignorance out of people. Go and shoot some guns with your buddy Gov. Perry. At least with a comment like that maybe the smell or sound of the gunshots would clear your mind and you might realize, as was said in the initial post, you wish you had as much courage as he does. Way to call Snowden a name with no rational explanation for your ridicule. Then again, why would I expect any more from a Texan.

[galileoreloaded]

279. oooga booga!!! the boogey men are under your bed!

[woo me with science]

5. Hear, hear!

[MrSlayer]

6. I wonder who is pulling the strings.

I seriously doubt that this jackass did this on his own. Someone wanted this to come out to serve their own purpose and used this guy to facilitate it.

I wonder who and I wonder what goes on while we follow this shiny object.

[Number23]

31. Any idea who?

Someone wanted this to come out to serve their own purpose and used this guy to facilitate it.

Normally I don't entertain conspiracy theories, but considering how unprepared and frightened Snowden seems to be now, I'm wondering if you may be right.

[JaneyVee]

8. IT'S NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN!

[Harmony Blue]

11. True

but it is fun making the arguments put forth against Snowden into Swiss cheese. Oh my I am hungry now.

[backscatter712]

13. Touche! A valid point!

It should be all about the NSA's illegal violation of our Constitutional rights.

[JaneyVee]

49. Exactly!

[still_one]

113. That would have been the case until he moved from domestic spying to international spying

At that point he moved from a whistle blower to a traitor

He made it about himself

[BB1]

248. In Europe we think different about that.

Still a whistle blower to us.
We're not at war, are we? So is he a traitor or a guy who warns about the NSA spying on the whole world and their dogs?

[MADem]

12. Answer--someone terribly stupid, or suffering from brain damage due to the adult onset

epilepsy he said he had.

There were better ways to sound the alarm. He just looks like a crazy, paranoid crank, now.

The cowardice piece comes from the fact that he wasn't greeted as a liberator, as he anticipated. His hubris led him to envision an outcome that didn't match with reality.

He had other options. He didn't take them. That's on him.

[backscatter712]

14. Ah, now you've devolved to disability-bashing.

You sound like a real winner!

[MADem]

23. Please explain, with specificity, how pointing out the effects of epilepsy is "bashing."

Tick tock--I'm waiting to hear this.

[backscatter712]

34. Why don't you explain what you meant. There are a lot of people with disabilities on this forum...

...and they're likely to take offense at your attitude.

[MADem]

144. Why don't you, since you're so anxious to be offended, spend a little time learning

about adult onset epilepsy? What it does to the human brain? Instead of waving the "Waaah, I'm offended--and I want others to be as well-- because you stated a fact" flag?

I've been entirely clear about what I meant. Snowden said he had adult onset epilepsy....which is rare. It can be caused by drug abuse, or a clunk on the head. ... or for no damn reason at all.

It can cause frontal lobe lesions. It can reduce one's intelligence. It can cause personality changes. It can affect an individual's judgment. In short, it can make a guy who wants to shoot leakers in the gonads one day suddenly decide that he's Superman and has to save the world.

It ain't just all about seizures.

Now you go do the homework from there, you know how to use "the google" I'm sure.

[Th1onein]

94. It IS amazing, the levels they will stoop to,

to take the heat off, isn't it?

WOW. Now Snowden's not just a bad guy, he's lost his mind!

Jeebus.

[MADem]

145. Ooooooooh......THEY!!!!

Snowden was the one who said he had adult onset epilepsy.

He's the "THEY" you are looking for.

[treestar]

105. Um, that is the dumbest post of the internet

It must be bashing blind people to state that they can't see.

[Harmony Blue]

16. A Bush whistleblower is in jail

exposing Bush crimes that the Bush administration fessed up to. Manning has been tortured for how long. What better way is there to sound the alarm for whistle blowers now?

[MADem]

43. Manning grabbed a bunch of shit and gave it to Assange.

He was just on a pissant, angry tear. He made a mockery of the oath he took and the job he assumed. He didn't even vet what he tossed out there. Then he punched out his supervisor when she challenged him on his performance.

He wasn't tortured--he professed suicidal ideation, so he was given one of those packing quilt costumes that they give to people who say they are going to kill themselves. Don't say you're going to kill yourself in jail if you don't want your jailers to take away anything you could use to do the job.

He's a member of the US military.

They're ORDERS, not invitations, and certainly not suggestions. He knew that--he just thought he was the smartest guy in the room.

Guess what? He was wrong.

Yeah, he's a real brave guy....not. He had options, too--he just chose to not exercise them.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

19. k&r

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

[SidDithers]

129. I love this post...

Please, please keep putting it up.

Sid

[treestar]

15. One who did not stay in the country to deal with what he had done

[Harmony Blue]

18. I wouldn't stay in the country

to deal with a corrupt government either.

That is why so many whistleblowers support Snowden that chose to stay in the country.

[treestar]

102. Oh blah

It's one of the least corrupt governments on the planet.

Even if the NSA thing is wrong, it's a blemish, not an absolute ruiner.

[tblue]

230. "One of the least corrupt"?

Oh my gosh. Where did you get that stat? Like saying, "He's one of the nicest wife beaters." And if you are a superpower, a little corruption goes a long, long, long way!

It's that "USA!" thinking that will keep driving us down this ugly spiral. We really have lost our way. The more you know about this gov't, the more you wish you didn't know. Like how sausage is made. It's a nightmare behind the scenes, and the most vulnerable beings are treated with brutal contempt or worse.

Just saw on TDS a bit about Canada and bank regulation. We don't hold a candle to that country. We don't even allow a lot of black people to vote, and we all know that's about to get much worse. True, we are not Somalia, but that's a pretty low bar, and we are losing our bragging rights with every day that goes by.

Koch brothers, NRA lobby, Roberts court, drones, indefinite detention, voter purges, private prisons, PATRIOT Act, Monsanto, MILITARY-SECURITY-INDUSTRIAL Complex and endless war. That's some serious shit that offsets a lot of good.

[Hydra]

44. And you wouldn't be saying the same things about him if he was here and being tortured?

At least pick some solid ground to stand on before you invite him back for his "perfectly fair treatment."

[Romulus Quirinus]

74. Right?

SOME PEOPLE enjoy being locked naked in a cage, incommunicado with an occasional beating, forever. But you know, not everyone swings that way.

[totodeinhere]

84. Would you really expect him to say here and be tortured as Bradley

Manning has been?

[Number23]

20. The kind who puts everyone who he disagrees with on ignore?

[Hydra]

55. LOL

That kinda bugs you, huh? I saw a post to the effect of, the poster in question had 6 people on ignore, and all of the disrupting posts were missing from the thread.

I haven't reset my ignores except for one particularly unsavory person since DU2, but I'm getting tempted. I post evidence responding to various people's assertions, and I see them doing the same posts in later threads, almost to the letter.

If all you are here to do is disrupt and as one person put it "make fun of them until they go away," then ignore is the correct answer.

Skinner will get the point when 100s of members are ignoring the same few people...or the people in question will have no one reading their threads and no one seeing their posts. They simply will have talked themselves off the site.

[Number23]

65. It actually does bug me! I just think it's so damn immature to crow about who you're ignoring

One particular poster who has been very prolific over the last few days doesn't let a thread go by without crowing about how "she can only see 9 posts within the thread" or some such. I mean, how stupid is that? And if you are that easily brought to the vapors by other viewpoints, what in the world do you think that says about the convictions you hold yourself?! If an echo chamber is the only place you can feel validated and listened to, then maybe -- just maybe -- it's because the ideals you hold are a bit, unstable? Weird? Stupid? Destructive?

Skinner will get the point when 100s of members are ignoring the same few people...or the people in question will have no one reading their threads and no one seeing their posts. They simply will have talked themselves off the site.

I think some folks are already there, to be honest. One person who is pretty open of her loathing of Prosense has her transparency showing and she had 15 hidden posts and over 100 people ignoring her. It was surreal.

[Hydra]

83. Many of us are not here to make points or win people over

Maybe that's a point you are missing. My primary reason for being on DU is to learn what's going on from alternative news sources to get a better idea of what's really going on so I can take it to the real world and do my activism. I take the time to refute points with evidence because to let a lie stand is to give it life...but if it's on ignore, it has no life.

There's always been a group of people here who are naysayers- they say we can't question/protest/take the gov't to court for various reasons, usually because they are happy with how things are and don't want their bubble disturbed. In the end, their disruptions are irrelevant, but annoying. I've had people tell me here that we couldn't protest the Bush Admin's torturing because we couldn't prove it. It was eerily like the discussion we're having now about he spying. Guess what? Torture was admitted to, and the people who screamed at me pretended they never said what they did.

Tell me now how I was better off not putting that person on ignore from their first post?

[Number23]

95. I'm here to read. Hard to do that when I've decided that people that don't see the world exactly as

I do are wrong and don't even need to be seen. There is nothing more "authoritarian" than that mind set, if you ask me. I read any and everything. Even stuff I disagree with. I think it makes me a smarter person. I'm a black chick that was inadvertently subscribed to a white supremacist newsletter for years. That should give you some idea of what I'm talking about.

If you want to ignore people, that's fine. I'm not necessarily knocking ignore which I personally think is quite pitiful, but whatever. My issue is the people who for whatever reason feel the need to crow about how they're ignoring literally hundreds of people and disrupt threads with the "Plonk" foolishness. That's it.

[Hydra]

107. Then don't be on the wrong side of the evidence

It's pretty easy. I've seen a lot of nuanced discussion about the evidence and where it might lead, and how it ties in with other things.

I've also seen the lowest moment I've ever experienced on DU- the assertion that questioning Gov't lawbreaking must mean you're a racist. That group of people made themselves irrelevant at that point, and badly embarrassed the people they were defending. Since then it hasn't gotten better, and if there were any valid points to what they were saying, they were lost in the noise.

I've seen huge fights on DU in the past about really important issues, but none have so well highlighted what's wrong with our party at the moment(they came close, but nothing this blatant). The problem is that this isn't an issue of perception- there is rule of law, and there is rule of whim. You'll have to pick one.

[Number23]

132. See, there's that thing called nuance again.

What you think is the lowest moment on DU doesn't come close to what I see as the lowest moment. Your comment about "then don't be on the wrong side of the evidence" speaks volumes about how you see the world and it is thankfully, not the same as mine.

For instance you saw posts that said that "we can't take racism out of the equation of some of this mindless, never ending, ignorant criticism of this president" and took from that "you're a racist if you disagree with government lawbreaking." Everyone is different. And seeing some of the posts around here and some of the people making them, I thank God for that every single day. My world view, which has been crafted by actually seeing very large parts of it, doesn't make for nearly as much black and white thinking as you and a loud few seem to be fond of.

And as though eager to prove my point for me, this conversation began about how obnoxious people crow about using ignore and you have twisted it to somehow be about the rule of law. That's extraordinarily laughable to me, and is indicative of how single and narrow minded so many on this web site are about everything.

I'm pretty much done here. You'll have to continue this out of the blue and totally absurd argument by yourself now.

[MADem]

218. Preach it sister, and may I associate myself with your remarks?

[Number23]

256. It's just WEIRD, isn't it?

It's like some people around here have some deep-seated need to be angry about EVERYTHING. That every subject needs to be twisted and distorted into an issue with which to rage about.

I've got better things to do with my life. And like I said, I thank God that I do not see the world this way and have little in common with many of the posters in this forum who I actually feel quite sorry for to large degree. They don't seem informed or knowledgeable, in fact they seem the utter contrary. The only trait many of them have large quantities of is rage which I think is a waste of time.

[babylonsister]

260. I love you; you speak for me, and you had better

not be done, my friend!

[Major Hogwash]

165. Harumph, Mr. Plonk doesn't care what you say!!!

Mister "I has the authorities" is his hero, and that is all there is to it!!

[HardTimes99]

25. Wish I could rec your post to infinity - n/t

[mindwalker_i]

29. But, but, but...

He told the whole world, and us too, about how the government was fucking us all over. HE DOESN'T LOVE AMERICA, WAAAAAAAAAA!

[Agschmid]

92. I'm more worried you were not already aware of this...

What I am sick of is an uninformed electorate. Snowden should be brought back to the US and should be dealt with according to the laws which exist. He apparently didn't have the balls to do all this and do it on American soil... What does that tell you about our media here.

[mindwalker_i]

117. That sounds like a great idea

Have him face the government that ignored its laws (4th amendment) and put this in place to start with. Also, the same country that tortured, uses drones, and Manninged. I can't see why Snowden wouldn't trust them.

[Agschmid]

120. It's going to be his best option soon...

He should grow a set and come home and face the repercussions for his actions. He'll maybe it would help the american dialogue around these important issues.

[mindwalker_i]

126. He's an individual and not rich

There's been a lot of empirical evidence that, in that situation, he's not going to get a bit of justice.

It's like calling a woman a bitch when she rats out her husband for beating the shit out of her. Would you ask her to go back home and "face the music" as it were? Should she "man up"?

[Agschmid]

137. Ummm...

It's like calling a woman a bitch when she rats out her husband for beating the shit out of her. Would you ask her to go back home and "face the music" as it were? Should she "man up"?

It is not like that at all... Did the woman steal state secrets and then travel to a competitive foreign nation to reveal them? If so you left that out of your comparison... Just wondering.

And this man will have lawyers CLAMORING to defend him, pro bono as well!

[mindwalker_i]

164. Steal state secrets

versus telling epople about the private life of her and her husband? Just like Snowden told the world about the U.S. spying on everybody. Maybe instead of getting all mad at the messenger, you should worry about the original crime being commited. Yeah, I know it was probably legal as some secret court made up a bunch of secret rules about it. We, as citizens, should be fighting against that rather than the one who told us we were being fucked over.

[Agschmid]

196. Not fighting against him.

Just arguing the point that if Snowden was the one who informed you of this then you were sadly uninformed. Also he should be held responsible for his actions as should any criminal... Messenger or not.

[mindwalker_i]

203. I disagree specifically because he was informing us of the govt's illegal actions

They are illegal because they violate the 4th ammendment. The secret laws have gone too far, and in a democracy it's kind of our duty to fight against those, so I am grateful to Snowden for taking the risks he took to expose them - or confirm them. Furthermore, as this government has broken further laws about torture, specifically with reference to Gitmo and especially Manning, Snowden is smart to get the hell out of here. I don't begrudge him anything for not wanting to be tortured.

So my analogy of a woman getting beat up works in that she would be making parts of her private life less private, which is generally a bad thing, but in that case is very well justified to stop a bigger crime - getting beat up. That's what the term whistleblower means.

[Agschmid]

204. Again...

If it took Snowden to inform you, you were not paying attention.

The NSA did not just build that facility overnight... Drones have been in use for years... And NYC has been under heavy video surveillance for years. If it took a 29 year old technician to tell you this the wool over your eyes is thick.

Let this 28 year old be considered a messenger as well.

[mindwalker_i]

205. Before, it was a very strong suspicion

Granted, we should have been doing more about it then. But anybody who claimed the govt was spying on us was a conspiracy theorist, and we, or at least I, didn't think about the possibility of other governments being spied on. My bad. Regardless, Snowden gave us evidence of the spying, so now it's out of the probablistic realm and in the fact realm.

The point I keep making is that Snowden may have broken some laws, but they were to give concrete evidence of others breaking bigger laws. Therefore I don't think he needs to "face the music" and come back here. Especially given our government's willingness to break bigger laws and torture people. The fact that we strongly suspected being spied on before Snowden changes nothing.

[Agschmid]

207. I'm done.

This comment sealed the deal for me in this discussion.

and we, or at least I, didn't think about the possibility of other governments being spied on.

What did you think spy agencies did?!?!

[DeSwiss]

30. K&R

[bvar22]

35. Another DURec

...AND a Kick!

Looks like you touched a conservative nerve.

[Cleita]

36. K&R

[ProSense]

38. "What Kind Of Coward" would flee to Hong Kong?

"What Kind Of Coward" would get trapped in Russia?

"What Kind Of Coward" would whine about his passport being revoked?

Josh Marshall: "Snowden’s pretty screwed."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023144319

There Are 12 Million Stateless People Around The World, But Edward Snowden Isn’t One Of Them
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023149095

[HardTimes99]

76. The kind of coward you could only hope to be. - nt

[ProSense]

79. I don't like being trapped in Russian airports.

I'm just not that stupid.

[treestar]

104. You ought to delete that

[wtmusic]

130. Already showing promise as an enduring comeback.

[Cha]

162. If Snowden isn't a coward.. then he should not have acted like one..

Rand Paul and whomever else was claiming "Civil Disobedience" for Snowden is absolutely wrong.. instead of waiting to be arrested and defend his actions in a court of law he high tailed it first and then leaked his stolen documents.

Turning into Snitch Snowden with the speed he sneaked off to China and China and Russia were the grateful recipients.

Snip***

Snowden's Uncivil Disobedience

Edward Snowden, the former intelligence analyst who leaked to the Guardian and Washington Post classified documents on the National Security Agency's anti-terrorism surveillance program is not practicing policy-based civil disobedience, or any form of civil disobedience for that matter – despite Sen. Rand Paul's claim to the contrary. His flight to Hong Kong and possible efforts to win asylum from Iceland or China violate a central tenet of the philosophy. Resisters who break a law must accept that they may be arrested and have a duty to submit to punishment.

Moreover, Snowden, to answer a question posed yesterday by Jacob Hayutin on this site, is not a whistle-blower. A whistle-blower is one who reveals to the public wrongdoing, corruption or illegal behavior committed by those in authority, but who also cooperates with investigators as they work to ascertain the veracity of those allegations. Snowden had a chance to properly blow the whistle. He could have reported serious problems associated with the National Security Agency program to Congress under a process established by the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act. The law would have provided Snowden legal protections and given Congress an opportunity to properly investigate the matter without jeopardizing national security.

***Snip

Snip***

As of now, Snowden is an unpredictable variable carrying a trove of information of great value to countries conducting espionage activities against the United States. If Snowden is truly committed to protecting American democracy, to demonstrating civil disobedience, he should voluntarily return to the United States immediately. Otherwise, the government should exercise whatever legal means it has at its disposal to bring him back to the U.S. to face the consequences of his actions.***Snip

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-chandler/2013/06/18/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-is-neither-a-whistle-blower-nor-a-civil-disobeyer

A true hero of civil disobedience is Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King..

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/resources/article/annotated_letter_from_birmingham

"What Kind Of Coward" would whine about his passport being revoked?

that's a good fooking question.. Snowden won't face what's he's done but he will Whine Disingenuously about it from Moscow.

thanks ProSense

[Major Hogwash]

170. Someone who has been banned from Disneyland for pinching Goofy's ass!!

But, I don't want to talk about that now!!

[eridani]

235. The kind of coward that doesn't want to be tortured like Manning n/t

[shawn703]

40. Oh please

There's no bravery involved. He had an agenda to damage the USA and thought he could do it from the safety of foreign soil. He thought he could buy protection by selling our espionage secrets to these foreign powers. Now he's finding out he's not as smart as he thought he was. I bet there's a big steaming pile of shit in Snowden's pants right now.

[Harmony Blue]

51. Selling secrets?

where is your evidence he would do this, and where would he put that money?

[backscatter712]

56. They keep throwing that accusation, but have no evidence. n/t

[shawn703]

63. The currency

He thought he would be paid in was his freedom. Sadly for him, nobody seems to be paying.

[wtmusic]

135. Ah, living as an exile under threat of assassination/kidnapping for the rest of his life is freedom.

You must be kidding.

[shawn703]

195. Like Roman Polanski?

[wtmusic]

209. Roman Polanski exposed evidence of illegal surveillance?

[shawn703]

214. Roman Polanski was granted asylum and is wanted by the US

He hasn't been kidnapped or assassinated yet. Neither was Bobby Fischer. How about you give me just one name of someone granted asylum from the United States that ended up being kidnapped or assassinated? It doesn't matter to me what the individual did, I just want to see what precedent there is for your claim that Snowden would need to live in fear of being kidnapped or killed after being granted asylum.

[wtmusic]

215. Oh, I thought there was a reason why someone would give a crap

about assassinating Roman Polanski or Bobby Fischer.

I don't remember the U.S. pulling strings to deny airspace to his flights either.

Notice any differences between Snowden's reason for seeking asylum and theirs?

[shawn703]

222. They all wanted to avoid prosecution for their crimes?

Seems like a pretty big similarity to me. I'm still waiting for you to provide an example of where someone was granted asylum to flee prosecution in the United States who was subsequently kidnapped or killed. What would be the point of him frantically trying to seek asylum if the United States would just "get him" anyway?

[wtmusic]

234. Oh come on. Bobby Fischer played a match in Yugoslavia

under an embargo and they tried to turn it into a tax issue. Yes he's an asshole, but there's no law against that.

Roman Polanski probably (likely) is a pedophile, but not worth putting an international hit on.

Snowden may be the biggest intelligence leak in U.S. history. Does the U.S. need to make an example out of him? You bet it does. Is the CIA above targeted assassinations of U.S. citizens abroad? You bet it isn't.

An American Teenager in Yemen: Paying for the Sins of His Father?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097899,00.html#ixzz2Y0csh2K3

[shawn703]

243. Sad story

However, it doesn't provide precedent to your claim that the US would still try to "get" someone protected by right of asylum, since asylum had nothing to do with what you linked.

[wtmusic]

244. If they're denying him of the fundamental right of seeking asylum

what's to suggest they'd honor the right of living under it?

[shawn703]

245. Well

We can't deny him the right of seeking asylum, he's not being detained by the US and it's something granted by a foreign country regardless of what the US thinks about it.

Do you really think the United States thinks Snowden is worth the international incident that would follow a kidnapping or assassination on foreign soil? He pretty much blew his wad already with how much damage he could do, and it's not like he has the means or access to continue being a threat.

[wtmusic]

250. I don't think for a second the U.S. is beyond orchestrating a horrible "accident"

and is unappreciative of the message it would send.

[shawn703]

253. We will just have to agree to disagree

[arely staircase]

41. and his 6th amendment rights. he's trying like hell to give those up nt

[Historic NY]

53. One that was lead by the nose into thinking he'd be a world hero........

someone (add whomever you wish) must have promised him something and its not really working out for him. Three months into a job he said pay 200k a year isn't much ... considering his expenses now are eating up that 16k a month.

[polly7]

60. +1000. K&R. nt.

[baldguy]

61. Another screed honoring the douchebag thief...

For being nothing more than a douchebag thief, apparently.

[watoos]

64. Maybe everyone just can't see the forest for the trees.

What is going to happen next? Nothing is going to change. Is it too simple to presume that Snowden was simply used to make Obama look bad and cause dissention between democrats? The surveillance will not stop.

[Hydra]

114. If the surveilence won't stop

Then we're not running on rule of law anymore.

At that point, we're all kinda screwed, so I hope you're wrong.

[patrice]

69. The kind of person who can't stand to the consequences of his own actions, because doing so could

reveal the possibility and degree of his own errors and also the harmful consequences thereof to others who never got a choice in the matter, on his way to status as an idol of what calls itself "the Left" but isn't and there's proof of this last point in the fact that "the Left" (Ha!) is willing to let other people be hurt by their drive to political power.

[BeyondGeography]

86. Those things obviously didn't mean much to him

Did they?

[stevenleser]

90. The assassin of Yitzhak Rabin was young and thought himself a courageous hero too. Still does.

Taking a dangerous, dramatic and geopolitically altering act doesn't make you a hero.

[Scootaloo]

99. Well, according to some DU posters...

Rabin was murdered by an invisible flying T-100 Terminator unit controlled by Shimon Peres. TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!

That said, "heroism" is a matter of personal perspective. if someone wants to put Snowden in those ranks... then all I have to say it's sad they have such a dearth of better options, I guess.

[wtmusic]

128. C'mon, compare him to Hitler. I know you want to.

What an asinine comparison.

[HardTimes99]

143. I think a discussion of what makes a 'hero' and, conversely, a

'coward' would definitely be in order at this point. For example, self-sacrifice seems a common element to my conception of 'hero.'

[on point]

111. The Heroic kind...

[frazzled]

115. He's the kind of coward who won't stand up, and prefers to hide

He's the kind of coward who lies his way into a job for the express purpose of stealing documents. (And by the way, his salary was $120K.) Thinking, at age 29 that he has all the answers and will save the world (while ruining the evil US). And then instead of going to court to fight for what he claims to think is "right." he flees to Hong Kong and Russia and tries for asylum in a list of countries with far worse records on civil liberties than the US.

He's someone who clearly thinks he is smarter and better than everyone else (and more "moral&quot -- only he has obviously failed miserably on all of those counts. (He has demonstrably failed to comprehend the systems he tried to expose; he thought the world would want to embrace him, but actually they want nothing to do with him.) It's a psychopathology.

And when his plans go awry, he plays martyr, promulgating conspiracies about the gov't taking away his "citizenship" (false in its entirety) and possibly trying to murder him. What an incredible psychopathology: superiority complex, lying, ducking out of consequences, and then persecution complex. A perfect circle of neurosis.

[wtmusic]

125. If he had stood up you never would have heard his name, would you?

That would be pretty stupid.

[frazzled]

133. Of course we would have

He divulged his name. Then he should have shown up to present himself for trial (as say, Ellsberg did), and we'd have endless months hearing about it.

[wtmusic]

138. Never in a million years.

Do you think they're stupid? The NSA would have spirited him away to prison before you ever knew he existed.

Heard any interviews with Bradley Manning...ever?

[HardTimes99]

148. Remember Jose Padilla? Due process really served

Padilla well . . . NOT!

[wtmusic]

156. Jose who?

(of course.)

[flamingdem]

131. +1 And the one who has his dad hook up a Libertarian Neo-Con Lawyer for him

and compares him to Paul Revere. You can see why Edward has a disorder when dad is in some way laying his politics and crazy on him - Paul Revere? Really?

[CakeGrrl]

123. The kind who hates Social Security, the US Government, and personal responsibility

more than he "loves" any of the things in that 'analysis'.

[PDJane]

127. A relatively sane one, who realizes the US is a police state.

[railsback]

147. Sounds like you're in the slammer

eating a can of beans, watching a broken t.v.

[PDJane]

199. I'm outside of the US, gratefully.

However, I've been watching as the same ideological poison works its way here.

[railsback]

206. Ah. Yes, easy to imagine the worst when not living it.

[Lil Missy]

140. A stupid one who couldn't see past his nose.

[wtmusic]

141. K&R.

[Forgot10Hiro]

150. The coordinated anti-Snowden brigade will be all miffed about this thread.

Corporate fascism seems to be sheik to some people whom would describe themselves progressive.

[backscatter712]

174. They already are.

The fifty-centers sense they're losing control of the narrative.

[SoapBox]

151. What kind of coward? One that is a TRAITOR!

And...to all the lemmings that are so behind this weasel...

He hates America so much...that he now wants to become a citizen of someplace else!

GOSH! What a true-blue-patriotic American!

NOT!!!!!!!! So snap out of your comas and see this clown for what he really is. A weaseling TRAITOR.

Little Eddie...don't EVER come back to our wonderful America.

[Logical]

155. Lol, drunk? Me too! n-t

[brush]

163. Why did he run?

Should've stayed and lived up to his alleged principles.

[upi402]

182. It was sad to see so many DUers flinging poop at Snowden

And "liberal" journalists who just couldn't decide how to feel about this.
Yeahright whatevah...

[Lady Freedom Returns]

184. We SO need unrec back.

How on Earth could anyone want to be a traitor?

[moondust]

187. Ha.

Give up a $120,000 job, living in Hawaii with an "athletic" girlfriend, with only a GED to compete in the job market with people holding master's degrees--even if he can manage to stay out of PRISON? Flush it all down the toilet for what? Some abstract notion about "big secret gubmint" that he probably picked up from Ron Paul and other anti-government kooks?

"Stupid" is probably a better description.

[Summer Hathaway]

192. I think the author is confusing

Snowden's sense of self-importance, his arrogance, his superiority complex, his hatred of what he perceives to be the Big Bad Gov't, his inability to think things through to their logical and inevitable conclusion, and his lack of understanding the consequences of one's actions for "courage".

Given the situation Snowden now finds himself in, it would seem obvious that his circumstances are more a matter of having been incredibly stupid, naive - or both.

An act of courage would have been Snowden doing what he did, and staying in country to face the consequences.

When it is necessary for anyone to depict flight-rather-than-fight as the "courageous" thing to do, any argument attached thereto has already been lost.

[blue cat]

193. The kind of coward

That when asked by Putin to stop hurting America, he refused. I resent it. ENOUGH.

[Katashi_itto]

194. 1. Man, it's exciting, isn't it?

1. Man, it's exciting, isn't it? Where will NSA leaker Edward Snowden end up? Will he live in limbo in a TGI Friday's in the Moscow airport? Will he get asylum? Where will he take a shit? Does he have access to shampoo? Holy fuck, tell us more about his plea bargain deal offers and his attempts to find a country to take him. Tell us more because the more we hear about Edward Snowden, fugitive from the butthurt U.S. government, the less we have to grapple with what Snowden's leaked documents actually reveal about the U.S. surveillance state.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023148436

[leveymg]

202. He's no coward, but that doesn't, in itself, make him a hero. It's not just intentions that count.

He has to succeed at his mission, before he can be judged a hero.

Time will tell what Edward Snowden really is and is not.

[nolabels]

216. Mostly he is just Human, and i think it is quite easy to afford him that

I have no hero's and don't feel the need for any, but will i study something if it seems interesting. It is kind funny to see how there is always someone who has this need to one up someone else and never understands why they want to.

Thank goodness that we all can still just be Human

[Enthusiast]

220. Kicked and Recommended! nt

[madrchsod]

226. coward? nah..just a dumb ass

maybe he should have thought about his plans just a few minutes more

[randome]

227. "I am not here to try and hide from justice."

An inept coward.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[WillyT]

228. K & R !!!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

231. I agree. He's not a coward.

[yurbud]

241. thank you

[michigandem58]

247. Some people argue terrorists aren't cowards as well

I hope Snowden doesn't get anyone killed with his recklessness.

[Democracyinkind]

251. I love how you guys harp "PROVE IT!!!!!111!!!" when it comes to the NSA

... but have no problem with asserting, without any evidence, that Snowden spilled all he had to the bogey Chinaman and Soviets...

[indepat]

254. At 29, I still obediently accepted big brother's every proclamation and edict. At 35, I began to

wonder from time to time if big brother were wrong on this one (Vietnam). Decades later, I now question nearly every overt/covert action big brother has taken since 1953 (giving a pass for Korea) under the auspices of the MIC, DOD, and CIA to teach some other nation/people a good lesson. While no one cares what I think, history will set the record straight.

[Progressive dog]

261. Who cares if he's a coward,

I'd rather argue about what kind of scum he is.

[pam4water]

262. K&R

[ProSense]

264. They're waking up

at Daily Kos:

Not Comfortable With Snowden Hero Worship on DKos
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/03/1220917/-Not-Comfortable-With-Snowden-Hero-Worship-on-DKos

[Theoted]

265. Perfect timing!

Incredibly good timing .... Our country needed a jolting wake up call, and I believe this may have been just what the doc ordered!

[Blanks]

271. Perhaps calling him a coward isn't accurate...

...but he needs to come back and stand trial.

Obviously we can't just allow folks to load up a thumb drive with all kinds of secrets and let them run around the world sharing them.

I expect there is someone behind him who got him his security clearance and encouraged him to do this. That person should be located and questioned. Who was his mentor?

Sure, it's bad that the government knows what we're up to. However, we can't allow people to indiscriminately run off to other countries with secrets. What kind of precedent does that set? Certainly someone who does that shouldn't be viewed as a hero.

If Snowden's behavior is ok then what about the guy who runs off to Pakistan or North Korea with the latest tank technology or anti-aircraft technology?

No, this kind of thing can't go unchallenged, it shouldn't be viewed as heroic. An individual really can't decide what information is ok to share with other countries.

There are methods to bring government excess under control, I don't claim to know what those methods are, but I know that I wouldn't be able to figure them out within a few weeks of working for the government. I seriously doubt Snowden came up with the best solution in that amount of time either.

He will look less and less like a hero as time goes by. I don't think he's necessarily a traitor, more like a young man without the benefit of seeing things like this play out.

In the end, I expect it will come out that he was manipulated by someone who knew how it would play out, but didn't want the attention themselves.

[backscatter712]

272. If the U.S. wasn't supermaxing and torturing people and giving them kangaroo trials...

Then I'm sure that would be an option.

But if Snowden's going to get the same treatment Bradley Manning's gotten, I'd run too.

[Blanks]

278. The solution to that is not handle it the way Manning did.

Perhaps if one were to familiarize with history instead of current events one could find an example of how to leak secret government papers by turning them over to the press and insisting on anonymity.

The trade-off is that your name doesn't become a household name...

The pentagon papers are an example where an individual found fault with government activity and brought it to the attention of the press.

I don't agree with calling someone a hero that leaked American secrets to foreign governments. If the press is informed and the press shares information that makes America look bad to its allies and enemies then that is on the press. One man acting alone is not afforded the opportunity to find fault with the way the press handled classified information.

He should have anonymously leaked it to the press. I'm pretty sure that's what brought Nixon down. I don't think he tried very hard to bring this 'important information' to the masses in a manner that was not self destructive.

[Logical]

281. Kick n-t

[B Calm]

282. I would change the word coward to traitor. .