This Snowden guy has a few cracks in his resume.

[MADem]

Turned by China?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/former-cia-officer-officials-considering-nsa-whistleblowers-case-potential-chinese-espionage/

Former CIA case officer Bob Baer revealed on CNN Sunday evening that intelligence officials were possibly considering Edward Snowden’s case as Chinese espionage, after Snowden came forward this afternoon from an undisclosed Hong Kong location.

“Hong Kong is controlled by Chinese intelligence,” Baer said. “It’s not an independent part of China at all. I’ve talked to a bunch of people in Washington today, in official positions, and they are looking at this as a potential Chinese espionage case.”

“On the face of it, it looks like it is under some sort of Chinese control, especially with the president meeting the premier today,” Baer said. “You have to ask what’s going on. China is not a friendly country and every aspect of that country is controlled. So why Hong Kong? Why didn’t he go to Sweden? Or, if he really wanted to make a statement, he should have done it on Capitol Hill.”

According to Glenn Greenwald, Snowden said he chose Hong Kong because “‘they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent,’ and because he believed that it was one of the few places in the world that both could and would resist the dictates of the US government.”

CNN host Fredericka Whitfield asked if there was any chance of China extraditing Snowden.

“We’ll never get him in China,” Baer said. “They’re not about to send him to the United States and the CIA is not going to render him, as he said in the tape, is not going to try to grab him there.”

Worked for Booz Allen for LESS THAN THREE MONTHS?

http://www.boozallen.com/media-center/press-releases/48399320/statement-reports-leaked-information-060913

Booz Allen Statement on Reports of Leaked Information

June 9, 2013
Booz Allen can confirm that Edward Snowden, 29, has been an employee of our firm for less than 3 months, assigned to a team in Hawaii. News reports that this individual has claimed to have leaked classified information are shocking, and if accurate, this action represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm. We will work closely with our clients and authorities in their investigation of this matter.

[DevonRex]

1. He was at CIA before that. Wonder if he's the CIA leaker, too.

Somebody leaked to AP about the CIA operative Al Qaeda Arabian Peninsula. Somebody leaked Ambassador Stevens' itinerary and the location of the CIA safe house in Benghazi.

[MADem]

6. Did he spend more than three months there, I wonder? nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

26. Is he a friend of Scooter Libby?

[DevonRex]

39. Perhaps a bit young :-)

Now that he's defected to China, in essence, he can't even claim to have done this for good reasons. He doesn't want to live in a country that does this so he goes somewhere that's much worse. Um hmm.

[MADem]

42. Maybe he likes aspens, too...? nt

[randome]

2. Why didn't he go to Ecuador?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MADem]

7. Maybe another bed crammed into that back room in the Knightsbridge embassy flat?

Roommates--that's the ticket!

[pnwmom]

14. Or Iceland? He says he'd like asylum there. So why didn't he go there directly?

[rucky]

115. Julian snores. n/t

[BeyondGeography]

3. Greenwald sure knows how to pick 'em

Agenda-driven "journalism," for the win.

Here's what Hong Kong's Chief Executive, who is "elected" by 800 insiders, had to say about democracy today:

Hong Kong Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying condemned Sunday a planned demonstration aimed at demanding full democratic rights from Beijing, saying the protesters could be breaking the law.

A civil disobedience movement called "Occupy Central" held its first planning meeting Sunday, discussing the details of a large demonstration slated for July 1, 2014.

"Plotting illegal activities that will disrupt social order before the government launches a consultation and before any political reform proposal has been raised in society, makes people query if the motive (of Occupy Central) is simply to break the law," Leung said before leaving for an official visit to the United States.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/130609/hk-leader-publicly-criticizes-planned-pro-democracy-mo

Should be an interesting visit.

[randome]

21. Just the fact that he's 'promoting' his source shows an agenda.

A journalist lets the facts speak for themselves, he doesn't get on the web circuit and try to justify his actions and promise his next stories will be even better.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MADem]

90. New journalism--get on twitter and try to drive people to your articles.

It's very commercial, at best. Tacky at worst.

His piece wasn't terribly clear, either.

It's a new way of doing things, I guess. I don't know if Walter Cronkite would approve, but we're in a new age and apparently, there's no turning back. I still find it a bit...discombobulating...but I'm still getting used to the whole concept of blogs as valid sources.

[SidDithers]

4. DU rec...nt

Sid

[wandy]

5. Well, what we have here for ourselves is either spin or, or.........

other spin. Depends on which side is spinning.
And you know that's Hong Kong, yes that great defender of freedom China, I mean Hong Kong.


This, is getting confusing.

[MADem]

8. That's what I've been saying all along.

Something is.... amiss here.

It was a neat little package. Too neat.

I am curious as to this fellow's supposed history of seizures. They could be a piece of the pie...

[okaawhatever]

17. They started a year ago. I think it may have something to do with it also. He was previously in Japa

Japan and Switzerland or Sweden. The Chinese could have gotten to him in either place. He's definitely the low hanging fruit. His claims to his job titles are suspect at best. I also think we'll find his claims about the Army are b.s. He donated $500 to Ron Paul

[MADem]

41. I thought I read he was "going to be" Special Forces but broke both legs.

I know they lowered standards, but this guy didn't graduate from high school. He didn't get his GED straight away, either, near as I could tell.

I should think Special Forces would demand at LEAST that degree of stick-to-it-ive-ness, absent some other compelling credentials, like, say, fluency in seven languages and a McGyver-like ability to build amazing shit out of a paper clip, a rubber band, and an oil-soaked rag. Something seems "off" with his claims. Yeah, he can bug the President if he wanted to--that's the ticket!!!

According to the Guardian, Snowden is a 29-year-old high-school dropout who trained for the Army Special Forces before an injury forced him to leave the military. His IT credentials are apparently limited to a few “computer” classes he took at a community college in order to get his high-school equivalency degree—courses that he did not complete. His

first job at the NSA was as a security guard. Then, amazingly, he moved up the ranks of the United States’ national security infrastructure: The CIA gave him a job in IT security. He was given diplomatic cover in Geneva. He was hired by Booz Allen Hamilton, the government contractor, which paid him $200,000 a year to work on the NSA’s computer systems.

Let’s note what Snowden is not: He isn’t a seasoned FBI or CIA investigator. He isn’t a State Department analyst. He’s not an attorney with a specialty in national security or privacy law.

Instead, he’s the IT guy, and not a very accomplished, experienced one at that. If Snowden had sent his résumé to any of the tech companies that are providing data to the NSA’s PRISM program, I doubt he’d have even gotten an interview. Yes, he could be a computing savant anyway—many well-known techies dropped out of school. But he was given access way beyond what even a supergeek should have gotten. As he tells the Guardian, the NSA let him see “everything.” He was accorded the NSA’s top security clearance, which allowed him to see and to download the agency’s most sensitive documents. But he didn’t just know about the NSA’s surveillance systems—he says he had the ability to use them. “I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities [sic] to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal email,” he says in a video interview with the paper.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/09/edward_snowden_why_did_the_nsa_whistleblower_have_access_to_prism_and_other.html

I mean, really...WTF? He's a one-man Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight.

Unless his actual job was to tell some huge honking lies, and play a game of misdirection...?

Or maybe he's lying like hell because he's got a case of Munchausen's, and he's made it all up...or maybe a boatload of lies was planted in his head, and he was made to believe that spilling the beans was in fact his very own idea...?

Or maybe he's mentally ill, and he said he had seizures to explain a prescription for depakote, which has an off-label use as a drug that is sometimes helpful in treating bipolar disorder with schizophrenic affect?

All PURE speculation--but what we know thus far makes NO sense, so far, so ... whatever! I'd love to hear the speculations of others--they can't be any more half-baked than what we know thus far....

[Blue_Roses]

49. Yep

While reading his interview, I got the feeling something is "off" with this guy. Can't put my finger on it, but there's more to this than what meets the eye.

[okaawhatever]

55. If he was training for SF it would have been the Q course. Prior to the Iraq/Afghanistan one couldn'

go straight to the Q Course. I doubt that changed in 2003. So if he wasn't in the Q course he wasn't training for SF. I think we're going to find out a lot of what this guy says is bull shite. I didn't hear he was taking Depakote. It used to be you couldn't take any psych meds and keep a clearance. If they've made concessions I doubt it would be for something that strong. I guess he could have gotten by if they thought it was for seizures. Maybe it was prescribed for mental illness and the seizure thing was a cover.

I think this guy has real issues, and I think whoever is footing the bill for this has it out for Obama. His claims about Obama making the surveillance state worse are flat out wrong. Even former CIA and NSA directors who aren't fans of Obama have said he took the power from the executive branch and put it on the legislative branch and that oversights were added. The only claim of expansion that has been validated is in the database itself. Some have said that the tools and programs available have increased and the amounts of data have increased.

He uses terms from an old book and a book written about the Nazi SS in his conversation. "Turnkey Tyranny" is from a book written in 1820. The author is unknown. It's called "The Cap of Liberty". The cap of liberty references a red cape given to freed slaves in Roman times. It's mentioned in an interview that when he is on his computer he wears a red cape to hide from anyone seeing his passwords. Hello, folks. Not normal. The other quote is "architecture of oppression." That references a book about Nazi SS and forced labor. He uses the code name Verax which references some dissidents from England a few hundred years ago. He also frequently speaks in the third person. He's an odd bird. My question is why didn't someone notice what a risk he was? The warning signs should have been there. I also notice that no one is concerned for all the undercover agents all over the world wondering if they have been identified by him. He made it known publicly that he had a list of all the intelligence agents all over the world. That's like having the winning lottery ticket. He's said publicly that he has very valuable info but wouldn't sell it. If there's a rendition, it may be from the other side. They'd love to know what he knows. Every op we have working right now is in danger because of this guy. Every double agent, every spook, every asset is in danger right now and they can't do anything until we know what has been compromised. I wish more people cared for that.

[MADem]

73. I read somewhere that he suffered SEIZURES. That he had EPILEPSY...

Yes, here it is: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/09/edward-snowden-guardian-interview/2405873/

Snowden, who learned after seizures last year that he suffers from epilepsy, is a former technical assistant for the CIA who spent the past four years at the NSA as a contract employee of several companies, including Dell and Booz Allen, the newspaper reported. He copied the documents last week at NSA's Hawaii office and then told a supervisor he needed time off for medical treatment, the newspaper said.

I don't know if he's on depakote (common anti-seizure drug) but it also has an off-label use as a treatment for bipolar/schizophrenic affect. Works well with some patients, too. All that was pure speculation, and it was the "seizures" thing that triggered my memory of the off-label use of the drug (I know someone who is using the drug in this fashion, to good effect, too, when she stays on the drug--when she goes off, she gets grandiose--her family is now attuned to notice the signs and make sure she stays "medically compliant&quot .

So...yeah. It crossed my mind that he may have been using a fake diagnosis of epilepsy to get that drug, and actually be on the med for another reason. With a clearance that high, surely he'd have to do the old lie detector every now and again...? How the hell would he pass that? Nerves of steel? Sociopathic personality? Valium?

I found your comments very interesting and elucidative. I have to say, I feel the same way you do--that this smells like someone is targeting OBAMA, and if this guy knows what he grandiosely claims to know, he could be a real problem and jeopardize the lives of contacts and operatives in the field.

I'd love it if he had next to nothing and he was a grade A bullshitter. I don't think that's the case, though...

[msanthrope]

135. I've been saying since yesterday---adult onset epilepsy and some weird shit behavior.

Find the girlfriend and the family, and wait. This man reminds me of some clients I've had.

[MADem]

137. Interesting. Is there emotional lability? How about depression or suicidal ideation?

I saw that interview from Hong Kong, yet again, and I found his affect troubling. I guess NSA has already tossed his house and talked to the girlfriend, but I agree that it would probably shed some light on the situation to hear from her.

[msanthrope]

138. Adult onset epilepsy is most often caused by substance abuse. This is not the only cause,

however. Paranoia, lability, inability to maintain work and social relationships--I've seen that. You are correct about the uses of Depakote--it's often prescribed with other meds for schizophrenia spectrum disorders.

A professional film maker was brought in to produce a relatively short piece--I'd love to see the outtakes. His affect is off--in a way that I suspect would be very apparent if other journalists were allowed to interview him.

[MADem]

140. Really? I love DU...learn something new every day!

I understand he was interviewed for HOURS but they've only given us, what, twelve or so minutes of the interview. It's very odd. You'd think there'd be more material of interest to this story.

Maybe I am over-analyzing, but I do tend to be irritatingly observant (some times--other times things woosh right over my head), and I have a habit of focusing on verbal cues--I sense stress and a surfeit of barely controlled emotion in his voice. I think he's in some sort of crisis.

He's left his hotel in Kowloon per the tv--they don't where he's gone, yet.

[msanthrope]

143. I think the plan is to release in dribs and drabs. Then you've got the book and the

eventual documentary...which is why the filmmaker was brought aboard.

His father and stepmother are relatively local to me. Apparently, two agents from the FBI Allentown office interviewed them. Not quite the response one would expect from such a 'major' leak....but who knows....

A blast from the past on Mr. Greenwald's wiretapping activities...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002101211

[MADem]

145. Ha! I like to think I look downstream, but I didn't think of that angle at all...

until you put it into words and the "OF COURSE" lightbulb went on!

Those interviews DO look like cut-ins for a documentary. I think you're right--there's one on the drawing board. And that link? How...UNSAVORY. I didn't wire into all that, that was a period in my life when I was overwhelmed with 16 hour days--I barely had time to sleep. But damn--everyone's entitled to a vigorous defense, but that kind of "trashing the victims" talk is reprehensible.

You'd think a guy who suffered discrimination himself would know better than to associate with, and defend, a white supremacist--to say nothing of using that kind of language to describe minority victims. Rude, no-class asshole.

I don't think Mister Greenwald is strong in the "ethics" department on a good day. I find his association with the Cato Institute troubling, certainly, and I seem to remember that he was called to task by some blogger who was ticked at his anti-semitic attitudes for fluffing his own blog with comments he, himself, wrote.

[msanthrope]

148. Laura Poitras--a filmmaker is sharing a byline with Greenwald at the Guardian. Film

at 11.

I think the reason Mr. Greenwald left the practice of law is over the Matt Hale case. I'd love to talk to Patrick Fitzgerald about that.

[MADem]

149. Ah---it all makes sense now. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

189. Rik Mayhall who died this week had epilepsy. So you two are pure class. In politics, Democratic

Governor of Hawaii Neil Abercrombie has epilepsy, diagnosed at age 30. Danny Glover. Hugo Weaving. Lenin. Neil Young. Lil Wayne. Lindsay Buckingham. Prince.

[MADem]

190. YOU are "pure class," making the leap that having epilepsy is somehow "bad."

Your PREJUDICES are showing. But thanks so much for putting it all out there for everyone to see.

And for anyone wondering "Why the hell is this ancient thread seeing new traffic?" I will invite eyes on THIS thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5085756

Apparently some DUers find it "shameful" to discuss the medical condition that is epilepsy (which can cause changes in intellect, personality, and other brain functions) in an open, forthright, and matter of fact manner.

[Eddie Haskell]

159. Check out his physique.

This guy wouldn't last a week in SF training.

[MADem]

188. Initially, they said he was in for five months. They revised that down to four.

The suggestion I read in one article is that he was part of an integrated training for National Guard people, where they go from the boot camp experience straight to the SF training (if I'm getting this wrong, I apologize--I am not an expert on Army initial entry or follow-on training).

Supposedly, he broke both legs in a "training accident."

A year ago, he started having seizures.

He's had medical issues in his young life, certainly.

[wandy]

19. I do not want to play Alex Jones here, but this whole bloody thing has been too neet a package......

Starting with the second coming of Benghazi.

I'm starting to wonder when their going to find a blue dress and a Ccc-Gar in Obamas lower left hand desk draw.
Oh wait, that was the Clinton scandal season.

[MADem]

28. Well, here's a bow for the top of the package--China gets the world headline they need....

http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/08/18124621-china-labels-us-the-real-hacking-empire-after-pentagon-report?lite

"As we all know, the United States is the real 'hacking empire' and has an extensive espionage network," the People's Daily, a newspaper regarded as a mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist Party, said in a commentary.

"In recent years, the United States has continued to strengthen its network tools for political subversion against other countries,” the article said.

"Cyber weapons are more frightening than nuclear weapons," the People's Daily said. "To establish military hegemony on the Internet by repeatedly smearing other countries is a dangerous and wrong path to take and will ultimately end up in shooting themselves in the foot."

And they get it at a perfect time, when Obama and the new guy are meeting in the desert:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/08/18851618-obama-chinese-president-talk-north-korea-cybersecurity-at-summit?lite



It's all very strange, indeed....

[FarCenter]

38. Note that Snowden had a deadline for publication in mind -- fits with the propaganda coup theory

To effect his plan, Snowden asked for a guarantee that The Washington Post would publish — within 72 hours — the full text of a PowerPoint presentation describing PRISM, a top-secret surveillance program that gathered intelligence from Microsoft, Facebook, Google and other Silicon Valley giants. He also asked that The Post publish online a cryptographic key that he could use to prove to a foreign embassy that he was the document’s source.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/code-name-verax-snowden-in-exchanges-with-post-reporter-made-clear-he-knew-risks/2013/06/09/c9a25b54-d14c-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story_1.html

Note also the "prove to a foreign embassy" aspect, which wouldn't have been necessary if he really intended to come forward.

[wandy]

45. I am not turning into Alex Jones. As I read the article I had this stray thought about..........

The second coming of Benghazy. About setting the stage for scandal.
I had the damdest mental image of Karl Rove with a Fu Manchu moustache.
Their have been a few of late you know. Scandals that is.

Now that's Glenn Beck crazy.

[MADem]

52. It may be crazy, but the idea of frigging Rove w/a Fu Manchu is an hilarious image!

Someone with photoshop talent could probably get a good laugh with that....

[roamer65]

9. It is highly suspect he ran to a Chinese protectorate.

I think there is a good chance he was turned by Chinese intelligence.

[MADem]

10. I think it's suspect, too. As one media interviewee said, "Why not Sweden?" nt

[ProSense]

13. Cheering treason.

Oh my!

That's why it's good to wait for the facts.

[roamer65]

18. First thing that popped to my mind when I read Hong Kong...

...was Chinese intelligence. Let's reserve our judgement and see what the Chinese do with him. If they keep him it's pretty obvious he was was "turned".

[MADem]

43. I am not cheering it but I, too, suspected it. It's only natural.

Why not Sweden?

Why not Ecuador?

Why not Iceland?

Hong Kong is a safe place if you're a Chinese asset, not so safe otherwise.

[roamer65]

48. Bingo.

[leveymg]

29. Defectors who "go over" quietly give secrets to the other side, don't draw attention to themselves

this way.

I think he chose Hong Kong for the very reason he cites: they're much less likely to give him up to the US than Sweden would be.

Also, Chinese intel would probably want this guy to stay in place at NSA and feed them some real secrets.

[roamer65]

32. Possible too that NSA was getting close to finding him...

...and it was time to boogie.

Time will soon tell.

Keep in mind he may be leaking the weaker stuff, saving the good stuff for yuan.

[leveymg]

40. If this is the weaker stuff, the sky is about to fall on Ft. Meade.

I think there's about to be a collective freak out by elements of the IC, and this may not end as well as most of us seem to hope.

But, just maybe, this may end up being an inflection point that changes the direction the country seems to have been headed, and we won't end up a post-democratic cyber surveillance state.

Time will tell. Pass the popcorn.

[MADem]

44. If the Chinese wanted that BIG headline, though, they got what they wanted.

The Americans are WAY WORSE hackers than we sweet, adorable Chinese.



This could be less about intel, and more about PR.

[leveymg]

110. They probably envy our surveillance system, as they denounce it, they copy it.

Like everything else China rips off and bootlegs. They'll probably end up selling it back to us for way less. "Same active ingredients as PRISM", now available in tablet form in the state surveillance and political control isle.

[MADem]

113. They might already have it! They have much of our drone design. nt

[MADem]

63. Did you see the headlines in the Chinese papers?

They're all crowing about how the USA are the "worst hackers" and poor widdle China ain't doing anything wrong....

This guy's job may have been a one-off. Make the biggest possible cyber stink, timed to happen when the new boss of China was meeting with Obama.

If that was the charge, this kid delivered.

[leveymg]

112. If

[woolldog]

123. That doesn't make sense.

If the Chinese had turned him they wouldn't have wanted him to go public. They wouldve wanted him to stay where he was so he could keep feeding them info.

[MADem]

132. Maybe he didn't have much access to information.

Maybe he was just a "listener" -- a very well paid listener.

Maybe what he had was all he was gonna get.

And--if he was hired by China--maybe his "job" was to embarrass Obama while the Premier visited?

[uponit7771]

11. Something is not right....there's no doubt on the face of it there's somethin sKrange

[MADem]

187. It gets stranger. He made the decision to "go public" BEFORE he joined Booz.

He was in touch with the filmmaker in JANUARY....and the reporter(s) ? in FEBRUARY.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/qa_with_laura_poitras_the_woman_behind_the_nsa_scoops/

Since he contacted you before he started working at Booz Allen, the implication people were drawing was that he went to Booz Allen with the express intention of leaking this.

That’s completely absurd. I had no dialogue about what the information was — there were claims, that’s all I received.

So the implication that you sent him into Booz Allen to spy was incorrect.

Are you kidding? I didn’t know where he worked, I didn’t know he was NSA, I didn’t know how — nothing. There was no like, Oh do you think you …, no nudging. It’s like the crazy correlations that the NSA does. There’s no connection here. We were contacted, we didn’t know what he was up to, and at some point he came forward with documents.

Did he join Booz solely to build up a nest egg to run away? It gets stranger and stranger....

[freshwest]

12. So freedom is alive and well in China.

An edited version of the infamous "tank man" photo during the Tiananmen Square massacre went viral on Weibo before being blocked.

Chinese Netizens Commemorate Tiananmen 'May 35th' Massacre With Rubber Duck Version Of 'Tank Man'

By Michelle FlorCruz June 04 2013

Today is May 35 in China, a day that may not exist on any calendar but holds great significance to many who struggle to commemorate the June 4, 1989, events in Beijing dubbed the Tiananmen Massacre.

China’s infamous Internet censors have been placed on high alert for any incriminating posts that would allude to the protests that took place 24 years ago and their bloody repression. As a result, China’s savvy netizens have taken to unconventional strategies in order to circumvent social media censors that are policing China’s popular Twitter-like social media site, Weibo.

Aside from referring to the anniversary date as “May 35” or “535” on Weibo, because the phrase “June 4” would undoubtedly be blocked, one image that has been shared is an edited version of the infamous "tank man" that has since become a renowned photograph synonymous with the June 4 events. The satirical version of the photo includes the now-famous Hong Kong harbor duck instead of tanks.

According to GreatFire.Org, a censorship-monitoring website, the image was quickly shared across the site, and, soon enough, the term "Big Yellow Duck" was also censored. China Media Project, a research program associated with the University of Hong Kong, tweeted the rubber ducky image on its Weibo account and said it came down in less than 60 seconds.

http://s2.ibtimes.com/chinese-netizens-commemorate-tiananmen-may-35th-massacre-rubber-duck-version-tank-man-photo-1290581

Comments lower down the page on the link support the contention of Hong Kong's greater freedom of speech:

Every year, Hong Kong residents flock to the square to commemorate the Tiananmen Square democracy protests, a place that is likely the only area where people have the freedom to do so. The turnout for the vigil reached tens of thousands, many of whom were holding candles, gathering in the square remembering the events that the mainland government is trying so hard to forget.

Obama met with Xi the other day which makes this all the more interesting. Stories that allege the Chinese government or military have been hacking American websites earlier this year would appear to be the reason for the summit. Wnder if Snowden was part of their discussion?

[Life Long Dem]

15. Maybe he quit a good paying job for a better payout.

From security guard to a decent job to throw it all away for nothing makes no sense. I'm having trouble believing he did it for the country when he leaves this country to never come back.

[MADem]

54. He had been in the swell job less than three months.

Maybe he flunked the "probationary period" and wasn't going to be kept on.

That can engender all sorts of emotions. Particularly after a high cost move to Hawaii.

[Life Long Dem]

57. Yeah, something is not right.

[Eddie Haskell]

166. That's a very mundane, but astute observation.

Living in HI isn't cheap and good jobs are hard to find.

[LittleBlue]

16. Does Baer think we're stupid? He answers his own question!

So why Hong Kong? Why didn’t he go to Sweden? Or, if he really wanted to make a statement, he should have done it on Capitol Hill.”

“We’ll never get him in China,”

Because in Sweden he'll get caught and, by Baer's own admission, in China he won't.

[Luminous Animal]

25. Pretty ridiculous, isn't it.

[leveymg]

30. That's what Baer really thinks, the rest is the party line.

[pscot]

20. This is the classic Red smear

Nixon would approve.

[MADem]

72. Well, if he ran to anywhere other than frigging CHINA, while the Chinese Premier was meeting with

the POTUS, and the subject wasn't roses, but hacking...perhaps there wouldn't be any so-called "smearing" going on.

Why didn't he run to Iceland? Or Ecuador? Or Venezuela? Or North Korea?

Why China? And why Hong Kong...the guy should have stayed in school; maybe he would have learned we have an extradition treaty with them....?

And, speaking of Nixon, you might want to hit the books, too, and not paint Nixon into a cartoon corner with that "Red smear" stuff--he evolved:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/china/

In fact, the latest meeting between POTUS and China's head honcho--the one overshadowed by this Snowden story--is being viewed as a reboot of that Nixon visit:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2013/0607/China-s-Xi-Jinping-meets-with-Obama-Will-it-be-a-Nixon-goes-to-China-moment

[pscot]

122. Nixon invented the red smear

as a political tactic. You will doubtless recall that he vilified Helen Gahagan Douglas as being "pink, right down to her underwear". And his "evolution" resulted in Watergate, and his leaving town one jump ahead of the posse. By the way, I'm not defending Snowden, who strikes me as a self-agrandizing fool. What does concern me is the apparent eagerness to hang the treason label on any and all dissent.

[MADem]

152. No he didn't. That tactic came to the fore right after the Bolshevik Revolution, when Nixon was

still in short pants. And Joe McCarthy made Nixon's hissing about Hiss seem amateurish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Red_Scare#First_Red_Scare_.281919.E2.80.931921.29

I guess you weren't alive when Nixon went to China? It was a very big deal--all television (I say again--ALL television, this was BC--before cable) was pre-empted to cover the event.

[pscot]

176. Accusing workers of Bolshevism

was a tactic used by businessmen to undercut the labor movement, but red baiting as a campaign ploy was pure Nixon. He used it in his first successful congressional bid in 1946. McCarthy became the most notorious red baiter after a political speech in 1950 when he produced his famous list of X# of known communists in government. McCarthy was the amateur; a political hack and a drunken bully with a talent for demagoguery. Nixon was a consumate pro whose every move was based on careful political calculation. My earliest political memory is watching the Democrats nominate Adlai Stevenson at the Amphitheater in Chicago in 1952. There were 3 votes. My grandfather wanted Kefauver. That was on a black and white TV in a cabinet the size of a small wardrobe.

[MADem]

177. I don't disagree re: Nixon's use of the tactic, however, I don't regard it as his "signature,"

or the thing that he is most remembered for--that 'honor' went to McCarthy. History agrees with me.

Red-baiting is the act of accusing, denouncing, attacking or persecuting an individual or group as communist,[1] socialist, or anarchist, or sympathetic toward communism,[2] socialism, or anarchism. The word "red" in "red-baiting" is derived from the red flag signifying radical left-wing politics.[3] In the United States the term "red-baiting" dates from at least 1927.[4] In 1928, black-listing by the Daughters of the American Revolution was characterized as a 'red-baiting relic'.[5] It is a term commonly used in the United States, and in United States history, red-baiting is most often associated with McCarthyism, which originated in the two historic Red Scare periods of the 1920s (First Red Scare) and 1950s (Second Red Scare).[6] In the 21st century, red-baiting does not have quite the same effect it previously did due to the fall of Soviet-style Communism,[7] but some pundits have argued that notable events in current American politics indicates a resurgence of red-baiting consistent with the 1950s.[8][9]

....The period between the first and second Red Scares was relatively calm owing to the success of government anti-communism, the suppressive effects of New Deal policies on radical organized labor, and the patriotism associated with total mobilization during World War II.[10] Red-baiting reemerged in the late 1940s and early 1950s during the period known as the Second Red Scare due to mounting Cold War tensions and the spread of communism abroad. U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy's controversial red-baiting of suspected communists and communist sympathizers in the U.S. Department of State, and the creation of an entertaintment industry blacklist, led to the term “McCarthyism” being coined to signify any type of reckless political persecution or witch-hunt.[11]

The history of anti-communist red-baiting in general, and McCarthyism in particular, continues to be hotly debated, and political divisions this controversy created continue to make themselves felt. Conservative critics contend that revelations such as the Venona project decryptions and the FBI Silvermaster File at least mute if not outright refute the charge that red-baiting in general was unjustified.[12][13] Historian Nicholas von Hoffman wrote in The Washington Post that evidence revealed in the Venona project forced him to admit that McCarthy was "closer to the truth than those who ridiculed him".[14]

Liberal critics contend that, even if someone could prove that the U.S. government was infiltrated by Soviet spies, McCarthy was censured by the U.S. Senate because he was in fact reckless and politically opportunistic, and his red-baiting ruined the lives of countless innocent people.[15] Historian Ellen Schrecker wrote that "in this country, McCarthyism did more damage to the constitution than the American Communist Party ever did."[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-baiting

[rhett o rick]

22. Ah yes. Anyone that dares expose our government for violations of our Constitutional rights must

be dealt with quickly and harshly. We can not allow any dissension.

Let me ask you this. Do you approve of Pres Obama not investigating the war crimes of Bush, Cheney, and the others?

[leveymg]

33. It's funny how much the authoritarian mind sets here and in China reflect each other.

The Mayor of Hong Kong's statements echos with the same tone as that of those who now most loudly accuse Snowden of espionage on behalf of China. Two halves of the same true believer brain.

[MADem]

47. When did you put on your robes, Supreme Court Justice?

I am all for running this program all the way up to the Supremes, but there's been plenty of bullshitting here about what this program does and does not entail.

What will you do if the Gang of Nine declares the program Constitutional?

Stick with the OP--if you want to talk about Cheney, Bush and War Crimes, start your own doggone thread on that topic and see how many bites you can get--don't hijack this one. It is BAD form.

[rhett o rick]

59. I believe that many here believe the SCOTUS should rule that our Unitarian Executive

Last edited Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:41 PM - Edit history (1)

can surveil citizens without probable cause. Keeping us safe from the horrible terrorists is worth ditching our Constitution.

I tried to point out that our president isnt interested in our freedoms and liberties when he prosecutes whistle-blowers and ignores those among us that have committed war crimes.

Our president is adamant about denying those that depend on medical marijuana for a little freedom from pain. Why is that?

Fascism is painless, and it takes on many changes. And IMO many are welcoming it.

[MADem]

62. Why are you getting snarky? Don't you think this entire matter should be thoroughly vetted?

Or should we crown high school dropout, community college dropout, Army discharge due to a training accident, worked in his latest job at Booz Allen less than THREE months Snowden a Conquering Hero--because it suits YOUR "Obama BAAAAAAD" agenda?

And then you crab about medical marijuana in a thread about national security--and you want to be taken seriously?

When you start tossing out the "F" word, you're trying to shut people up.

Trying, but failing.

I'm in favor of some REAL transparency, so long as this secret, which is quite plainly damaging to our intelligence capabilities, is out. Let's pull the string and figure out where it leads....if we dare.

I dare. And--just so you know--I'm not going to toss an "F" word at you, like you did at me, either. It doesn't help with the "light" aspect, and this issue doesn't need any more heat.

[rhett o rick]

147. I was answering your snark about me being a Justice. But I agree that

snark wont get us anywhere so I with draw the comment as it may not apply to you. But there are some here that have made it clear that 1. They trust the president. While that is sweet it might be dangerous to our democracy. Democracy relies on transparency not trust. 2. They try to refute even the slightest hint that the president doesnt believe in our rights as citizens. They seem blind to the facts and try to shout down all doubters. But this should be an area that needs to be vetted as you said and not swept under the rug. It appears to me that these people that try to shut down all discussions that are the least bit critical of the current administration are willing to give up all their Constitutional rights for security. That's what fascism is all about.

Dont try to discount me by calling me an Obama hater because nothing could be further from the truth. There was no bigger Obama fan than me in 2007. But in 2008 things started to change. The President started to gather Bush guys, Republicans, conservatives to his side. He hired Rahm who made it crystal clear that they no longer needed the left. In fact the left became a burden to them. They were actively seeking the right of center and were successful getting many Republicans to come into our tent. The ideology of the Democratic Party shifted to the right. Now the Democratic leader embraced the Patriot Act and domestic spying. These were issues where candidate Obama sided with the 99%. These were issues that I thought were the most important to fix. To undo the damage of Bush.

I use medical marijuana as an example of the priorities of this administration. Medical marijuana helps many that are in dire need of relief from pain. It helps those that are terminal and shouldnt have to go thru the pain. But medical marijuana is something that affects the 99%'ers and not the 1%'ers (who can get all the legal and illegal drugs they want). When this admin makes the denial of medical marijuana to people that need it, in a time when the American public support it, it shows me that they have no empathy. Instead of prosecuting the 1% for their gross crimes against our economy, they spend their resources denying citizens in pain their medication and sending the dispensers to prison for 20 years. Something is very wrong with their priorities.

[MADem]

156. Ah, you wanted him to dance with the ones what brung him.

It never happens that way. Never. Candidates run closer to their activist base, Presidents govern closer to the middle. Even Dumbya shifted a bit in his chair, simply by NOT doing things he could have, in fact done. I can't imagine how ghastly that would have been if he fulfilled all HIS campaign promises...!

Your glass is half empty, mine half full.

I think MM will have to reach a state-by-state legalization/decriminalization 'tipping point' before the Feds back away. I realize you probably don't like that assessment, but that's my read of the situation. I'd like to see more progress on that effort, too, but Congress is gridlocked, and for now the immediate way forward is through the states.

[Eddie Haskell]

168. I agree with many of your points.

An open discussion on privacy rights is in order. On the other hand, I think Snowden may be a snow job.

[emulatorloo]

127. I wouldn't be surprised if you murder innocent kittens and eat their hearts

Honestly, can we stop this ridiculous "I would not be surprised if you supported Hitler" nonsense whenever somebody does not agree with DU conventional wisdom 100%?

Don't mean to single you out, have seen a lot of it the last few days. It is really tiresome.

[msanthrope]

134. 5-1 to keep your post. nt

[MADem]

146. Not just because the unkind comments were directed at me, but I agree with your post

wholeheartedly!

I was told, elsewhere on the board, by someone who has since been mercifully PPRd, that my flag must be the "swassticka" because I didn't agree with the poster.

This kind of stuff is tiresome, and it has the effect of crushing discussion if one isn't made of stern stuff or doesn't see the tactic for what it is.

I don't know where in hell "Disagree without being disagreeable" went, but I do think it deserves a comeback!

And if any of the jurors who left your post intact are reading this, I would like to thank them for their wisdom and common sense. I can't believe anyone alerted on your post in the first place--more like a "Shut up, you" than a "Your comments were objectionable."

[rhett o rick]

151. I should not have directed that comment at her. But some here appear happy to give up

their Constitutional rights for a little bit of security. They love the comfort of strong authoritarian rule.

[Tarheel_Dem]

157. "Unitarian Executive"? WTF is that?

[OilemFirchen]

23. I don't buy it.

Occam's Razor sez he's an attention-seeking ratfucker. Perhaps a few delusions of grandeur. Maybe a missing screw.

The upside is that he ratfucked Glenn Greenwald.

[leveymg]

35. How did he ratfuck Greenwald?

And why does that seem to make you so happy?

[OilemFirchen]

46. I jumped the gun.

Should have said probably ratfucked Greenwald. That remains to be seen.

Anyway... how? By taking advantage of Greenwald's uncanny ability to be easily suckered and remarkable inability to do due diligence.

I live for the destruction of hacks. That's the happy trigger.

[msanthrope]

133. You might enjoy this---when Mr. Greenwald was suckered by Matt Hale--

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002101211

[OilemFirchen]

172. I did indeed.

The pull quote:

Further, Greenwald said, "I find that the people behind these lawsuits (shooting vcitims of his client) are truly so odious and repugnant, that creates its own motivation for me."

[FarCenter]

24. He can get some protection by the further release of information or threatening to do so

According to the Guardian stories, he only gave the Guardian and WaPo some of the information that he had.

The rest are probably in places where he could reveal them to the Chinese in return for protection or support. Some are likely "release after death" with some automatic trigger.

[okaawhatever]

60. He said in an interview that he knew exactly who and where all the intelligence agents are. That's

some seriously dangerous talk. It's almost like he's dangling it out there as a threat to the u.s. Sadly, every agent and double agent will be in limbo to find out if they've been compromised and every op we have going will probably be put on hold until a damage assessment can be finalized. What this guy could do to intelligence is very troubling. I don't think he's all there mentally. Plus, telling all our enemies you know where all the undercover agents are is like wearing a giant sign that says "kidnap and torture me!"

[MADem]

65. And he's been working there for under three months? Does he have a photographic memory?

Did he take lots of notes?

[okaawhatever]

67. No he downloaded alot of documents. Not that we know for sure, but that is his claim. That would be

the most valuable of all documents.

[Marr]

27. This is sad.

Anyone pushing this Fox News-style 'attack the messenger' garbage ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[Abq_Sarah]

31. Thank you!

The "it's okay because our guy is doing it" bullshit needs to stop.

[leveymg]

37. Second that.

[MADem]

50. Who's "attacking the messenger?" This guy has a resume--what, we shouldn't examine it?

I'd rather check out the guy's bona fides than play the "All Hail The Emperor's New Clothes" game.

That's what I'm seeing from plenty of folk here, and when a few inconvenient truths--like this guy has no qualifications, he was only in his job for THREE months, he has a sketchy back story, etc.--rear their inconvenient heads, the angry beat-downs begin. "How DARE anyone question this guy--you Fox News bastards!"

I say let's DISCUSS it--all of it. Throw it all on the table, push it around, see what shakes out.

Nothing wrong with chewing this over--it's people who are afraid to look at all the angles who should be ashamed of themselves, especially when a high school drop out with minimal computer training and a two hundred grand a year job ends up in Hong Kong spilling secrets.

Not questioning how THAT came about? That's about as SAD as it gets.

[Marr]

58. You are, of course.

You're promoting a lot of suggestive smears and a lot of Fox News-style "questions". You're about an inch away from saying, "some people say...", and there's nothing actually there. This is just wild speculation-- and it is indeed exactly what Fox News does.

You can call it 'looking at all the angles', if that makes you feel better, but I think it's pretty obvious that the people doing this are really just straining to talk about anything other than the actual information that was released, and to undermine the credibility of the whistleblower.

We've seen this a hundred times, though I don't think I've ever seen so many self-described Democrats leading the charge.

[MADem]

69. What suggestive smears? And frankly--LOOK who's talking!

Anything that is "fact based" I've provided links to support.

Like:

He's a high school dropout.

He's a community college dropout.

He didn't finish Army training, he broke his legs.

He's been at his swell Intel job in Hawaii, two hundred grand a year, for less than three months.

Those are facts.

You want the "actual information" that's released? Get off your behind and get over to Google. Every paper has it, in a nutshell--easy to understand. And it's been beaten to death on these boards too. Go look--you will find PLENTY of threads if that's your interest.

Go find an "angle" that suits you--but stop trying to tell other people what they can discuss.

My interest is the person of this guy--he's NQR, IMO. NOT QUITE RIGHT IN MY OPINION.

Your mileage may vary, and if it does, fine. But when you write finger wagging, STFU posts, that attempt to suppress speculation, you're doing the very thing you purport to decry--you are limiting MY free speech rights.

Sure, it's fine for this fellow you don't even know from a hole in the wall, who is your New Best Friend all of a sudden, to be the Champion of Transparency, but when I want a little transparency as to who the fuck this loser is, who is making six figures in a spy agency with a seriously flawed and underpowered resume, you are trying to silence any discussion that doesn't fit your agenda and your worldview.

Too bad--if you don't like the topic and this thread, there ARE other threads on DU that will be more to your liking, I'm sure. But I won't sit down or shut up because you engage in petty childish scolding and "suggestive smears" about my "Democratic" bona fides. I've seen that shit a hundred times, too, and I can smell it from a mile away.

[Marr]

74. Good night.

I'm not going to waste anymore time with this.

[MADem]

81. Good move. nt

[Ed Suspicious]

82. Relevance?

He's a high school dropout.

He's a community college dropout.

He didn't finish Army training, he broke his legs.

He's been at his swell Intel job in Hawaii, two hundred grand a year, for less than three months.

How is this relevant? It's odd that his high school record says anything at all about the veracity of his claims.

[MADem]

84. Yeah, everyone with that resume makes $200,000 a year.

That's the "relevance."

He doesn't FIT.

[Fawke Em]

126. They do if they've taken a series of computer courses.

Most tech companies don't care about degrees anymore - they care about whether you can do the job.

For example, you could take the courses listed under Information Security: http://www.nhknoxville.com/localweb/default.aspx?groupid=410 , pass your certifications tests and have absolutely no degree and START at $100,000+ a year in a medium-sized town. There is a shortage of trusted Information Security professionals.

I know - I used to work at the place where I linked you and now I work in Information Security - granted, not as an IS professional, but in public relations. Still, I know our salary ranges and I know that a fair amount of our assessors have no college degree.

[MADem]

131. Well, he took computer classes in community college.

He didn't finish them.

He went to high school.
He didn't complete it.

He joined the Army.
He washed out after five months due to a "training accident" (according to him, anyway).

He certainly has a record, and his record is one of not finishing anything he starts. I think it's a red flag. Perhaps it's not as important to people hiring nowadays, but I do find a "finish what you started" attitude an indicator of success.

He's apparently just checked out of his hotel--over on the Kowloon side of HK, but no one knows -- yet -- where he went.

If he turns up on the mainland, we'll know...

[Fawke Em]

180. Do we know if he still got his certs, though?

He could have a natural ability and passed his certification tests without completing a course.

I'm not disavowing his background. I'm just pointing out that the stick-to-itivness required for four or six or eight years in college is no longer required.

Know your shit, get your certs and then earn bank.

Personally, I'd rather pay someone like that big bucks than job and personal-income-destroying paper pushers on Wall Street.

[MADem]

181. Apparently, he didn't take any "cyber" classes at the junior college, per a recent thread.

I really think he either was a patronage employee or he had a natural gift. I should think they would have dug up his educational background in terms of his qualifications by now if he had one. But who knows?

People nowadays are more likely to change jobs many times over the course of a career. He has had four "employers" that aren't summer jobs (NSA as a janitor, NSA as a computer guy, CIA, NSA in Japan, and Booz in HI, and, at some point in time, the US Army for five months, with a discharge due to two broken legs) all by his twenty ninth birthday. And he had two distinct stretches "attending" community college (what they meant was not explained but it wasn't a degree program).

It does seem very compressed to me.

[Fawke Em]

182. Interesting.

I admit I haven't followed closely because I'm still doing some research on the Boston bombers' connections... well, the eldest... to things such as this.

But, I'm 43 and see 23 year olds make far more than me and be entrusted with far more data than me. Although, I have far more access to the company data than even they do and they get a bit ticked about it. Oh, well.

What I'm saying is that it's not as unusual as you think.

[MADem]

185. I learned from another thread here that his mother works in IT.

Maybe she was 'in on the ground floor' and he learned a lot from her, coming up.

[marions ghost]

144. Thanks for explaining that for general consumption...

I agree that his "checkered" past in schools & the army --doesn't necessarily reflect on his actual technical skills.

Not defending Snowden particularly. But I do agree that the argument that he is a "loser"--is not something we know by looking at his record, or at the fact that he "doesn't finish things."

The jury is out at this point, but some have already convicted.

[struggle4progress]

114. Because it's a weird resume:

Dropped out of high school. Took some community college computer course but didn't complete any of them. Went to the military because he wanted to bring freedom to Iraq but left after breaking both legs. Got a security guard job. Within a few years, posted by the CIA abroad under diplomatic cover. And in a few more years, barely a decade after dropping out of high school, pulls down $200K annually

[Number23]

92. Well said, MADem

Good God this place has been absolutely DERANGED for the past week.

I'm still waiting on all of the info to come in. But for me, the big news this week that both the Washington Post and Guardian have walked back their stories should count for a hell of alot more than it's doing around here.

[MADem]

98. I don't think the acolytes are reading the updates.

They really like the flavor of the "first version" so they aren't into "remixes!"

I think the way you do--this story is still evolving, and there are a lot of facts, and some of 'em just do NOT add up. Time has a way of revealing all--I'll keep reading and learning!

[LanternWaste]

150. You didn't mention that a handful of his neighbors said he wasn't a "very nice guy...".

You didn't mention that a handful of his neighbors said he wasn't a "very nice guy...".

As it seems as relevant (if not more so!) as getting his GED, I thought maybe the omission was merely an oversight on your part...?

[MADem]

154. Why do I need to, since you've just done it? This is a conversation--you can contribute, or you

can play snarky little "Waaah--I think I gotcha" games.

But hey--provide us with a link, so we know which neighbors we're talking about. If it's the Hawaii neighbors, their input is 'grain of salt'--how well do you know anyone who has lived next to you for under ninety days? If we're talking childhood friends, or people who lived nearby for a year or two or three, that's a different story.

Can't wait to read your contribution...

[Tarheel_Dem]

160. Actually, NPR played soundbites of his childhood neighbors, and they report pretty much the same.

Sounds like he wasn't your average kid. In the radio interview, one neighbor says he would speak, but he never looked you in the eye.

"Neighbor Joyce Kinsey recalled Edward Snowden as "a nice kid" who was friendly but "wasn't really personable. He didn't say much at all. He would say, 'Hi,' but he'd be looking down."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/10/snowden-neighbors-surveillance-security/2408573/

He could've just been a shy kid, but since he never really completed anything, I'm guessing we may find that his problems may have been much more serious.

I'm wondering if "clearance" is granted on an individual basis directly by the government, or if the government gives the contractor the power to determine clearance for its employees?

[MADem]

162. He worked directly for NSA, then CIA, then NSA (in Japan) before getting to Booz.

He had to have some history of clearances granted...perhaps that history 'informed' Booz's practices.

I guess the family didn't interact much with that neighbor, anyway.

[GeorgeGist]

75. Booz hired him.

How sad is that?

[MADem]

79. I agree with you that they have more than a little 'splainin' to do.

HOW could they have supposed this guy was a good candidate for...anything?

He never finished a damn thing. Not high school, not junior college, not the military...

He specialized in failure--at least that's what his resume looks like.

I know so many young adults who would jump at that job, who are talented go-getters with computer skills.

Unless this guy was some kind of dyno-hacker (and I haven't seen any suggestion that this is the case--I would almost prefer that he was a computer whiz; it would at least make some damn sense) I can't see why Booz hired him.

I would love to know why they took him on. I think there's a story there, too...

[snagglepuss]

153. The real crime of this story is the clear inepitude of companies contracted to do the dirty work.

That Snowden has revealed the incompetence of spy outfits, private or otherwise is worthy of praise.

[MADem]

155. Well, his job could be a patronage one, or he could be an unschooled genius.

We really don't know if he was "overpaid" for the job he was doing. I am inclined to suspect "Yeah," but I really don't know. There will be an investigation into that end of it, I'm sure, and I expect hearings as well.

That said, there are ways to call discrepancies to the attention of people responsible for intelligence oversight. "Outing" covert programs ain't the way.

[Eddie Haskell]

169. This speculation has got to stop.

Big brother will clarify all.

[MADem]

178. It's getting more interesting.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022986425

Who knows where this will end?

[delrem]

78. It doesn't get lower.

[MADem]

87. Oh, sure it does! People who tout the overarching, absolute importance of free speech

who at the very same moment attempt to silence or denigrate those ideas that they dislike are about as low as anyone can go.

[delrem]

93. Hey, nobody is trying to silence you.

You're perfectly free to continue your personal witch-hunt.

[MADem]

97. There you go again!

More characterizations!

There's most certainly someone in this thread who is continuing a "personal witch-hunt," but it ain't me.

[treestar]

120. The people who are going to be ashamed

I believe, are the ones who jumped on the hero worshipping bandwagon too early.

[Capt. Obvious]

136. "Are the ones who jumped on the hero worshipping bandwagon too early."

That's no way to talk about the BOG'ers.

Shame on you.

[elleng]

34. Sounds like a stretch to me.

'Most recently, Mr. Snowden has been part of a Booz Allen team working at an N.S.A. facility in Hawaii. Three weeks ago, he made final preparations to disclose the classified documents, The Guardian said. It said he had copied the documents and told a supervisor that he needed to take a few weeks off to deal with medical problems. He then flew to Hong Kong.

While it was not clear whether Mr. Snowden had remained in Hong Kong, if he had, his presence could complicate any possible American effort to extradite him for prosecution. A British colony until its return to China in 1997, Hong Kong retains autonomy from the mainland in its immigration system and its rule of law. Hong Kong has an independent immigration system, but it is part of China for purposes of foreign policy.

Hong Kong has an extradition agreement with the United States, in case American officials can provide a legal basis for seeking Mr. Snowden’s transfer to the United States. Hong Kong also has a very long tradition, dating back to British control, of close cooperation with the United States on criminal and criminal intelligence issues.

There was no indication in the Guardian article that Mr. Snowden had ever acquired legal residency in Hong Kong, so he would appear to be subject in principle to the 90-day limit that all American passport holders have for visa-free stays there.

Another complexity for Mr. Snowden is that the new administration of President Xi Jinping of China is pursuing better relations with the United States, including a meeting with Mr. Obama on Friday and Saturday in California, and may be more inclined than usual to put pressure on officials in Hong Kong to hand over Mr. Snowden.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/us/former-cia-worker-says-he-leaked-surveillance-data.html?pagewanted=1&hp

[ProSense]

36. What’s the Deal with Hong Kong?

What’s the Deal with Hong Kong?

Josh Marshall

<...>

Let’s start by saying that the US has very long arms when it comes to seeking the extradition of people who’ve broken the laws at quite Snowden’s scale. But Hong Kong is a really, really curious destination. In the Guardian interview Snowden said he chose Hong Kong in part because “they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.” There’s some truth to that, certainly in the context of China. But he also seemed to downplay that repressive nature of the Chinese government...Glenn Greenwald seemed to want to help Snowden preempt the idea that he is somehow putting himself under the protection of America’s enemies to evade the consequences of his actions. I’ve always been basically a dove on the subject of China. By which I mean that broadly speaking I don’t buy that China is our enemy or - certainly in military terms - presents much near term threat to the United States. But just as clearly China is a key, probably the key, geo-strategic competitor to the United States in the world today.

So let’s face it. Even though I’m tentatively willing to accept Snowden’s claim that he is doing this only because he thinks it’s right, he still seems to be hoping to evade the criminal consequences by defecting to China, a key US rival and one that comes up rather short of being the kind of libertarian and transparent society Snowden apparently believes in.

Look, I get it. He doesn’t want to go to prison. I don’t blame him. He says in the article that his highest hope is get asylum in Iceland. I can pretty much guarantee you that that’s not going to happen. A small country that wants to be close friends of the United States is not going to do that. I could see arguments for Russia or Venezuela or perhaps Iran. But of all the places where you might have a shot at not getting extradited, China’s not a bad choice. Hong Kong might even give you the best of both worlds, hosted by repressive government which is a US rival and yet living in a city with Western standards of openness, wealth, etc.

But the decision to go to China inevitably colors his decision and sets up what could be a very uncomfortable diplomatic stand-off. I’ve seen people linking to the current US-Hong Kong extradition treaty. Call me naive but I think this is going to come down to how Beijing wants to play this. If they don’t want a fight over this, Snowden’s toast. If they like the optics of it, I don’t think it matters what that extradition treaty says. China’s a big enough player and the US has enough other fish to fry with the Chinese, that the US is not going to put the bilateral relationship on the line over this guy. And the Chinese might relish granting asylum to an American running from the claws of US ‘state repression’.

http://editors.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/06/whats_the_deal_with_hong_kong.php

[MADem]

95. I wondered the VERY same thing--particularly since we have no extradition w/China, but we do with

Hong Kong (since 1998) -- the joys of "semi autonomy," even though China can crush that "Hong Kong freedom" in a nanosecond, and any time they choose. That said, I agree with JM's conclusions--

If they don’t want a fight over this, Snowden’s toast. If they like the optics of it, I don’t think it matters what that extradition treaty says.

From Snowden's perspective, Hong Kong is certainly a better jumping off point than mainland China would be--it offers a shred of plausible deniability. Problem is, he may find it hard to find anywhere he can jump TO....

North Korea might take him, but that wouldn't be much fun, I don't think...

[MADem]

111. I don't have answers. I have plenty of questions, and so what if my speculations are wrong?

This is a "discussion board."

People "discuss things" on it. They share "opinions." These opinions often vary. It's not "throwing knives" when people disagree with you. It might feel that way to you, but ratchet those emotions back a notch or ten. It's not personal--so don't make it so.

I am not so invested in my opinions that I can't bear to be proven wrong, or hear an opposing view. That's how adults learn things--they try 'em on for size, knock 'em around, and eventually something shakes out.

One man's "hatchet job" (or "unreasonable canonization&quot is another's opinion. I am not a judge in a courtroom so I can't put on a robe and declare anyone "Guilty" from behind my big old keyboard (in case you were unsure--and you seem to be).

Where I live--in America--the "white man" doesn't "impose his will on other races." YMMV but I doubt you're my neighbor.

I feel for you, too--if that makes you feel any better. You obviously, based on your cramped-paragraph lecture, have trouble and become upset with people who don't agree with you.

Here's some advice:

Don't take shit so personally. It's the INTERNET. It's not real life. Just say "I have a different view," state it, and move on. Oh, and it is NEVER a good idea to tell people that they are "bad" or "wrong" for expressing their own evolving views. Scolding people in an effort to shut them up almost always backfires. When people do that, others tend to regard them as pissy, mean, immature scolds.

I really should alert on your misspelled, ignorant, hate-filled comment to me, stating I wonder is your battle flag the Swasstika (sp) That is a rather vicious personal attack, you are calling me a Nazi, and that's most definitely against community standards. To say nothing of the fact that, since you invoked Godwin's Law, you lose the argument.


I can handle a difference of opinion. You might want to try it sometime, and quit with the nasty racist insults. I've never seen a person with a "weed" avatar use crude Nazi commentary in their posts, so you most certainly are a FIRST for DU.


Have a nice day.

[moondust]

51. Snowden is a high school dropout.

Of course that may not matter to everybody.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/5-things-to-know-about-the-nsa-surveillance-programs-and-the-man-who-leaked-their-details/2013/06/09/79d59c6e-d15e-11e2-9577-df9f1c3348f5_story.html

[reformist2]

53. Dubya had a degree from Yale and a Harvard MBA, lol

[Eddie Haskell]

170. Yes, but he bought them.

[MADem]

61. And he didn't finish the few community college courses he took....

And he didn't make it through Army training--he broke both his legs.




He also didn't check to see if the semi-autonomous region of Hong Kong had an extradition treaty with the USA.

Ooops...they do!

[Eddie Haskell]

171. Curious indeed

Uneducated, unaccomplished, untested ... must be CIA material.

[still_one]

89. Why would booz allen hire someone like him? did he lie on his resume, and if he did, wasn't there

background check

Something definitely is not right here

[haele]

124. Who you know; if his resume wouldn't pass muster for regular work, Booz might hire him as a favor

For someone at whatever alphabet soup organization wanted him there.

I'm not saying TIA -style surveillance wasn't being done, and I'm not trying to "justify" outrage that leaks happened or justify that surveillance, but it looks like Snowden was in the position he was in because someone wanted him to be there.

This game is still going on, and if it is what I think it is, it's a long game in the intelligence community that started decades ago, and there's a lot of money and private interests involved.

I'll just add this one thing - if private contractors weren't involved, and the agency(s) involved in this surveillance program had to depend on congressional budgets for their funding and standard government wages rates for their employees/managers, we wouldn't be discussing this program at all -
IF it would have even passed congressional muster, it would have been much smaller, had much higher oversight, and not been so controversial.
But intelligence is profitable, as is mis-directional intelligence. So we have messes like this, because we have private companies involved with national security analysis and policy making.

Just my two cents.

Haele

[still_one]

125. I agree the game is afoot

[JDPriestly]

56. China is not our friend, and Snowden is obviously controlled by them.

However, that does not change the fact that this program, if it is at all as he has described it, is at least as great a danger to our democracy as is China.

This program would give ultimate and encompassing control to a sitting president, regardless of his party or name.

The President has to either request legislation that abolishes this program permanently or admit that we are no longer a democracy, no more than China is.

You are right. China is not a beacon of freedom, especially not a protector of free speech. But then, if this program is even half as bad as Snowden has described it, neither is the US.

Only we are much more hypocritical about being a "free" nation than is China.

[xocet]

64. "Turned by China?"-- Nice fearmongering, Senator McCarthy....

fearmongering
noun

the action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue:

his campaign for re-election was based on fearmongering and deception


http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/fearmongering

The Red Scare

Shortly after the end of World War I and the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, the Red Scare took hold in the United States. A nationwide fear of communists, socialists, anarchists, and other dissidents suddenly grabbed the American psyche in 1919 following a series of anarchist bombings. The nation was gripped in fear. Innocent people were jailed for expressing their views, civil liberties were ignored, and many Americans feared that a Bolshevik-style revolution was at hand. Then, in the early 1920s, the fear seemed to dissipate just as quickly as it had begun, and the Red Scare was over.

During World War I, a fervent patriotism was prevalent in the country, spurred by propagandist George Creel, chairman of the United States Committee on Public Information. While American boys were fighting the "Huns" abroad, many Americans fought them at home. Anyone who wasn't as patriotic as possible--conscientious objectors, draft dodgers, "slackers," German-Americans, immigrants, Communists--was suspect. It was out of this patriotism that the Red Scare took hold.

At the time the World War I Armistice was executed in 1918, approximately nine million people worked in war industries, while another four million were serving in the armed forces. Once the war was over, these people were left without jobs, and war industries were left without contracts. Economic difficulties and worker unrest increased.

Two main Union/Socialist groups stood out at the time--the International Workers of the World (the I.W.W. or Wobblies) centered in the northwest portion of the country and led by "Big" Bill Haywood, and the Socialist party led by Eugene Debs. Both groups were well know objectors to WWI, and to the minds of many Americans therefore, unpatriotic. This led them open to attack. Any activity even loosely associated with them was suspicious.

...

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/saccov/redscare.html

[MADem]

76. Hey--if you disagree with the premise found in the first link, say so. But don't go name calling.

It reflects poorly on your maturity level.

And refute the premise if you don't like the article. Calling me a name (as if I share any traits with the late Senator from Wisconsin--that's really a vile personal insult, you know) for posting a link that discusses a CNN interview with a former intelligence official says more about YOU than you realize--and none of it good.

Why are you trying to suppress discussion with personal insults? It's a craven thing to do.

[xocet]

141. There is no need for you to play the victim. You are not a victim.

Your subject line is an unsubstantiated assertion that is unrelated to the content of your OP.

Your question is not a premise - it is asserted conclusion disguised as a question - a question that links Mr. Snowden to China.

By your defensive post to which this is a reply, you realize the damage that was done by Senator McCarthy to people by asserting that they were linked in some fashion to Communism.

So, you have made no argument, but instead are attacking the messenger (whistle-blower, leaker) Mr. Snowden with an unsubstantiated assertion in your subject line and with a "potential" link to China.

Your whole OP is simply dedicated to placing Mr. Snowden in a negative light.

Your principal tactic is to propagate a story that links him to China.

You are a fearmonger just as the late senator from Wisconsin was.

You chose your tactics - you should wear the name proudly, it fits you.

[Major Hogwash]

66. Not to mention the crack in his ass!

Oh, hell, I just had to go and mention it.

This makes Glenn Greenwald look like the biggest buffoon since Michelle Bachmann claimed that Obamacare was killing people.

So, knowing how we will all miss Michelle so much, I think Glenn should move to Minnesota and run for her seat in Congress.
Whatta think, do you think he can replace her ass as the wildest, shit-spewing, crap-throwing throwback to Neanderthals in Congress, or what??

Man, it is at times like these when I miss ol' "black helicopters" Helen Chenoweth.
Now there was a real fire-breathing, crap-throwing miscreant if ever there was one!

[BrotherIvan]

68. This OP and the responses in this thread win the prize

For the most vile, utter piece of BOrG crap posted all day!

[MADem]

88. And you win the prize too.

For childish and pointless name calling.

It might make you FEEL good, but it doesn't make you LOOK good.

If you can't refute the assertions postulated in the link at the OP with facts, call people schoolyard names for bringing the material forward for discussion! Because, you see, we should only post things that YOU agree with--yeah, that's the ticket.

And ALWAYS use a half dozen moving emoticons, just so we all have a REALLY good idea of your maturity level!

[Enrique]

70. ok this is getting hard to keep track of

1. Glenn Greenwald made it all up
2. It's an old story, everyone already knew
3. Greenwald put us all in danger by revealing secrets
4. Greenwald didn't reveal enough of the program (Mike Rogers said that this morning on TV)
and now a new one:
5. Greenwald's leaker is a spy for China

[MADem]

86. Well, the first four are topics discussed in other threads, not this one.

This thread is about a link to an interview with a retired CIA official about his views re: this guy, and notes, via a company release, that the fellow worked for Booz for three months.

In fact, you're the only one talking much, if at all, about Greenwald in this thread.

[Comrade Grumpy]

71. The OP and most of this thread is a shameless, vicious hatchet job.

Really rank.

Please, please, please, let's find some way to destroy this guy's credibility. Really pathetic.

[Ed Suspicious]

80. indeed. Shameful.

[MADem]

85. No it isn't. There are plenty of threads full of fulsome, unquestioning praise for this fearless

hero. Go find them and cease YOUR attempts to stifle discussion from another POV.

HIDE THREAD is your friend. Exercise a little self-control and stop calling people names or questioning their motives just because they don't see things your way--that's a more mature way to approach discussion on this board.

[burnodo]

101. unquestioning praise?

could you point out those threads? any will do. just one!

[MADem]

103. See the search box in the upper right-hand corner?

Put your cursor in it, type in Snowden hero, punch the little box that say Search! and you'll find plenty of posts praising the guy to the skies.

[burnodo]

104. sorry, I didn't find what you claimed I would

I'm not terribly surprised though

[MADem]

105. I can't help you if you don't have the patience to look. nt

[burnodo]

106. I did look

and what you claimed would be there was not there

Perhaps you could link to a specific thread where someone is heaping high praise on Mr. Snowden

[MADem]

107. You didn't look very hard.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014504440

[still_one]

91. So are you saying the NY Times is incorrect when they say he was a high school dropout, and all the

other information they reported on him? If those are the facts, it isn't a hatchet job.

However, the interesting question is why would Booz Allen hire someone with those credentials?

[Tarheel_Dem]

165. You do know the media is finally asking some of the same questions, right? By all means,

question everything the government does, but not the leakers? Is that how it works?

[delrem]

77. Snowden is dead meat, and the vultures are preparing the carcass.

Bush is dead! Long live Bush!

[MADem]

83. Well....that was helpful. Not.

If it made you feel special to say that, though, goody for you.

[delrem]

94. Just an observation. My intent wasn't to help you out. Not to my taste, you see.

[MADem]

96. Your intent was to drag a carcass into the conversation, certainly.

But not Snowden's.

That said, maybe you' like to read Josh Marshall's take on these events: http://editors.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/06/whats_the_deal_with_hong_kong.php

[BlueCheese]

99. Snowden could be the devil incarnate...

And it still wouldn't change what the NSA has been doing. That's the important issue, and all the criticism or praising of Snowden shouldn't distract from it.

[MADem]

100. I don't think he's the devil incarnate. I just am entirely unclear on his motivations, and I think

his responses in the Guardian interview don't even begin to scratch the surface. He has family who work in government (not sure what they do, but one can speculate, given that he grew up near NSA and managed to get work there) and he has abandoned everything and everyone in his life. To me, that's suggestive of personal crisis. He could have gone to the Intel committees, and picked his favorite team to air his gripes. Heck, isn't Rand Paul on the Intel Committee? And didn't he contribute to that guy? Why in hell didn't he go to him, I have to wonder?

He didn't even try to do it the way an intelligence veteran would; inside the system. Instead, he blew it up, went 'rogue' like Palin, and the timing...well, the timing was curious.

But on to your other point about NSA. The Senate (Feinstein and Rogers, particularly) is now saying that, to a Senator, they have been fully aware of the program and most (not all) feel that there has been adequate oversight over it. I'm sure that will be a bone of contention here, but it's one more piece of the pie. OTOH, there are also calls from within Congress from some of the same leadership for hearings on not just this particular issue, but the whole Patriot Act.

So maybe we'll see a review/revision thing happening down the line. That might make for an interesting summer...

[bowens43]

109. Classic bush tactic, attack the reporter of the crime rather then the criminal.....

[MADem]

116. Who's "attacking" anyone? Why are you taking this so personally?

Can't you discuss this guy without taking sides, getting on a "team," and feeling the need to defend "your" feller? You're not posting from Hong Kong or Brazil, are you?

A retired CIA operative has an opinion about this guy. His employer in Hawaii had him on the payroll for less than three months before he took a powder. These two links are interesting. They add to the sum of knowledge about young Mr. Snowden--who is someone that NO ONE here on DU had ever heard of two weeks ago--now suddenly, he's got dozens of BFFs who pretend they can look into his eyes and see his soul, and who just know EVERYTHING about him. And they're sure he is pure of heart and deed...just... because!

Discuss the material in the links--or don't, if you don't care to.

But don't play that silly "Bush tactic" game. For such a dumb guy that Bush was, you imbue him with a great deal of nefarious skill--far more than I think he merits.

[randome]

174. You're too close, MADem. Too close for comfort.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Laelth]

117. Let the smears begin!

SOP. But, I wonder whether SOP is the right strategy to take in this case. This is a delicate, delicate matter.

-Laelth

[Aerows]

118. I think he's full of crap

His story doesn't add up in the slightest.

[treestar]

119. How delusional

Hong long has free speech and the us doesn't? That is looney.

[RobinA]

121. Who Cares?

Personally, I don't care if he's on death row. He revealed some stuff that is very dusturbing to anyone who values civil liberties and the Constitution. Unless you are implying that his documentation is faked, and the administration defense of the revealed program would indicate that they are not, his resume is irrelevant.

[MADem]

130. The point is, he has no "documentation." His resume is relevant because he had a

very high paying job in national security, paying two hundred grand per annum, and he did NOT have:

...A high school diploma

...A college diploma

...A record that suggested deep talent in his field.

He hopped from job to job to job; five scant months in the Army, two years here, two years there--from security guard to IT to CIA to NSA to Booz Allen.

Amazing what a non-high school grad can do; what a success story!

Or maybe something else...?

[Recursion]

173. Or, as has been suggested, we're currently seeing what he was hired (by whomever) for (nt)

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

128. I don't think questioning a person's background, motives and veracity has anything

to do with whether anyone of us on DU supports activities to spy, wiretap, and monitor people's conversations, social media/internet activities and so on.

I think there are legitimate questions to be raised about this person's background and motives. Having some personal familiarity with security clearances and the like, I find it rather suspicious that someone who had only worked for Booz Allen for 3 months was given access and clearance (even despite the military background) to sensitive information at such a high level.

While the absence of a high school diploma or GED is not indicative of lack of intellect or computer prodigy, for example, it does bring up questions as to why an employer would entrust someone without a basic educational achievement to have such a high security clearance to enable him to access very sensitive information.

Lastly, I do find it curious that - of all possible countries without extradition treaties with the U.S. - he chooses Hong Kong which - though it has some autonomy from PR China - does have such a treaty but still has strong ties with PR China.

I don't think personal attacks have any place on DU when there are legitimate questions about a very divisive topic or event. Questioning a source does not mean that the information that has been revealed is less frightening or illegal or problematic or untrue and so on.

A healthy democracy requires a certain dose of skepticism. There's nothing wrong questioning where the information came from or questioning who provided the information, what are his motivations, what is his background and so on. After all, there may be more to this story than we know.

[MADem]

129. He didn't have any military record, either--he washed out of training due to breaking

both his legs. He never did any time in the theater of war or deployed anywhere. My background is not Army, but in my experience, most advanced training demands a HS diploma--the idea is that the recruit has "stuck to it" and completed a task. Diplomas strongly correlate with successful completion of training AND enlistment contract across the Services.

He started out at NSA as a janitor, and migrated to IT. Then he worked for the CIA overseas. Then he worked for NSA in Japan.

It's just an INCREDIBLE rise for someone so young and with virtually no formal education in his field. Indeed, he failed to complete the computer courses he took in junior college. He just doesn't, on the surface, appear to be a good candidate for anything.

He has, per some articles, family members who "work in government." It could be (speculation here) that one of those family members got him "in" to the NSA family. We all know that kind of stuff does happen, to some extent. How did Dick Cheney's daughter end up waving guns at her desk when she had that no-work job at State (that was created just for her) running the 'near east desk?' How did Colin Powell's kid end up being the Jerk of the Decade over at the FCC, worrying about Janet Jackson's bosom at the Superbowl? It's all down to patronage. Perhaps he has a powerful mentor?

Hong Kong provides plausible deniability, certainly. And if things go wobbly, and China is willing, he's safe behind a 'no extradition' wall simply by crossing over the border.

[Puzzledtraveller]

139. This is disgusting

You look at the things they point out and you see that he could be anyone, that there is nothing wrong with him. It's a sick attempt to define what is normal and you had better fit that ever increasing narrow definition, no wait, that will never happen because it will always change. You liking to dip your Wendy's fries in your frosty will be fair game at discrediting you. It's sad to see supposed dems parroting this crap.

[MADem]

142. Hey, I provided a couple of links to start a conversation about them. No one is forcing

you to participate. There's a button called HIDE THREAD that you can punch and make it all go away, if it bugs you so much.

You're entitled to your opinions--as we ALL are. What's "sad" is your refusal to give the opinions of others the same weight that you afford your own views.

Not sure about that Wendy's/Frosty attempt at some kind of analogy--I think you may have overreached.

But have a nice day.

[avaistheone1]

158. I agree with you.

They will every extract every bit of info in their massive data bases on Snowden no matter how insignificant and innocent, and massage him into the next Osama Bin Laden.

[MADem]

163. Who is "they?" nt

[originalpckelly]

161. It's the only place that could protect him.

We aren't invading China or launching ops on their soil.

[MADem]

164. Per the TV, he's on the move.

He left the hotel in Kowloon. Not sure where he went, though.

[Tx4obama]

167. Community College Says NSA Whistleblower Edward Snowden Took No "Cyber-Related Classes"

Community College Says NSA Whistleblower Edward Snowden Took No "Cyber-Related Classes"

DU OP here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022986425

[Eddie Haskell]

175. Snowden's a ghost, but he does bring up a good point.

[MADem]

179. Oh sure--there WILL be hearings. I do think he could have gone about it a different way, but

the horse has left the barn at this stage; all we can do is move forward.

[Whisp]

183. Snowden thought Iraq was a 'noble' war...

so Greenwad said...

*ahem.

[MADem]

184. Ain't that peculiar!

The only people who thought "Iraq" made a lick of sense were those who didn't understand that none of the Nahn Wun Wun hijackers were Iraqi.

[MADem]

186. This guy, it turns out, decided to go public BEFORE he joined Booz.

He was talking to the filmmaker in January, and the WAPO reporter in February.

Booz said, on June 9, that he'd been on the job for less than three months.

This story gets stranger and stranger:

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/qa_with_laura_poitras_the_woman_behind_the_nsa_scoops/