NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I do not expect to see home again'

[totodeinhere]

Source: The Guardian

Edward Snowden was interviewed over several days in Hong Kong by Glenn Greenwald and Ewen MacAskill.

Q: Why did you decide to become a whistleblower?

A: "The NSA has built an infrastructure that allows it to intercept almost everything. With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards.

"I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things … I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under."

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why

---

I have to admire him for having the courage to come forward. But I doubt that being in Hong Kong is a guarantee of his safety.

[Hissyspit]

1. @AP: BREAKING: Newspaper identifies source of U.S. surveillance programs as intelligence agency cont

@AP: BREAKING: Newspaper identifies source of U.S. surveillance programs as intelligence agency contractor. -MM

[rastaone]

2. What a brave man

"I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."

I hope he is not made to suffer for his action cos he did all of us a big favor.

#istandwithsnowden

[midnight]

3. Holy SH#T..... "The Federation of Secret Law" How can we know that what they are doing

is legal if it is secret?

[timdog44]

79. And how do we gather information if it is not

secret. Even when they get "permission" it is still secret.

[midnight]

82. Getting the permission is the thing that makes this secret more legit in my mind...

But first I want to know who is giving the "permission"...

[timdog44]

83. Again, that

is the point. Permission is given by the judge who is paid to give the permission. Legitimacy is a very nebulous term.

[xtraxritical]

129. Permission is granted by a secret court (FISA). Be paranoid volks.

[woo me with science]

84. +1000000 Daniel Ellsberg was interviewed tonight,

and he spoke of Snowden's courage.

That we still have voices like this gives me hope for this country.

[dotymed]

118. He is already suffering.

He can't come home, he will be hunted for the rest of his (probably short) life. Some gave all....for the truth, he was one.
He is an American hero, much more so than most soldiers except maybe Bradley Manning.

If the truth really shall set you free, I pray that under a different administration, he will be celebrated, before they get him with a drone.

This is what America has come to.

Are we ready to take to the streets yet? If not we may as well lie down.

[gholtron]

131. He's not brave

I think this guy is NOT a hero but a traitor to this country.  He is only a hero to the terrorist. He helped exposed how we tracked them. This is exactly what I was telling friends that Bradley Manning has started this "I'm going to leak government secrets because I think the public should know".  Now we have someone doing the same thing.  Why this guy didn’t contact someone in Congress about this?  All he did was expose how we track terrorists by causing FEAR that the government is listening to your phone calls. Now think about this.  There must be hundreds of thousands if not MILLIONS of phone conversations going on at any given time. Who has time to listen to any of those conversations at any point of time? And WHY would anyone want to listen to any of those conversations? People are reacting out of FEAR which is same tactics that was used by Fox News. There were NO laws being broken. There was a FISA court that the NSA had to go through to get a warrant. Members of Congress were informed.  I don’t fear the government keeping records of me, I fear we are going to have more people like this idiot leaking important government secrets that will make the US venerable to our enemies. I’m sure China would LOVE to speak with this guy now that he is hiding out in Hong Kong. And before you start quoting Benjamin Franklin’s “Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve neither liberty nor security” think about this, He did not live in a world of this type of technology. Just because he said it does not mean he was right. At one point in time, many smart people thought the world was flat.   Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

[LiberalLovinLug]

134. You are ripe for Fascist indoctrination

Benjamin Franklin’s quote of “Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve neither liberty nor security” is not right because he wrote it down, its right because its right.

It is sad to see even some on DU accept the slow deterioration into a Fascist state. One right at a time is stripped, like degrees of heat for the frog in a pot of hot water.

Would we all be safer in our cities if there were a nightly curfew of say 10 pm? And have soldiers on every street corner with machine guns enforcing it with a shoot-first policy? Probably and it would also get rid of that unsightly homeless problem. For now we live in a society were you can choose to go into shady areas to maybe go to a club. And you may be robbed on your way home. That's the price we pay. We take that chance.

We also live in a world where terrorists are going to strike at times. In fact they have for centuries now. And they will always find a way. Its a matter of deciding if you want to live in a freer more open society but riskier, or a militarized society where you are relatively safe and secure but have no privacy or freedom of speech or movement. I choose the former.

[gholtron]

136. You are wrong.

First, what right was stripped? The NSA followed the LAW and got warrants. Members of Congress were aware of this so there was OVERSITE. So tell me how the rights were stripped away? What gets me is how the terrorist can hide behind our Rights and attack us at the same time and there are people like some of those on DU that will protect people like this idiot who breaks the law thinking he is doing a service to this country . I'm not sorry that i won't jump on the band wagon on calling this traitor a hero. Do you want to inspire more idiots to leak classified information and make this country more vulnerable to our enemies? Well if that's true, then there will be no country. I thouht we were a country of laws. If he didn't like what he saw then he should contact his representstive. If you don't like this law then vote.

"We also live in a world where terrorists are going to strike at times. In fact they have for centuries now. And they will always find a way. Its a matter of deciding if you want to live in a freer more open society but riskier, or a militarized society where you are relatively safe and secure but have no privacy or freedom of speech or movement. I choose the former."

Tell that to the survivers of 911. No one has taken your right for free speech

[LiberalLovinLug]

138. What rights?

Rights that we had just a few short years ago for one. When Bush's wiretapping of US citizens without warrants was deemed unconstitutional, Bush just cursed and called the Constitution "a goddammed piece of paper" and ordered Woo and others to retroactively make it all legal. So I guess its now ok because its officially "legal".

Yes I would encourage more Ellsbergs, Mannings and Snowdens. I will take my chances of dying in a terrorist attack, or a plane crash, or a car accident, or the myriad of other dangers living in the modern world and live in a free and open society. That is a price I am willing to pay. It doesn't mean I don't want our defense departments to use whatever other means they have to investigate terrorism leads including wiretaps and invasions of privacy on actual suspects. But I also do not believe in fishing expeditions through everyones communications where information can be used to persecute and silence political critics or anyone outside the norm. And if you don't think this is a slippery slope that will only slide the country down further into fascism then you are blind.

I have a suggestion. If you want to be 100% secure, admit yourself to an institution where you get 3 meals a day, and exercise yard, and a safe secure place to sleep every night. But leave the rest of us to live freely.

[gholtron]

140. Fear talking

Bush broke the law. He should be prosecuted. If you want to live totally free then find yourself an unhabited island and live there. You can be as free as you want.

[LiberalLovinLug]

141. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself

I believe a Democratic President said that. It is you that are living in fear my friend.

If the other choice was a safe secure jail cell I'd take you up on that uninhabited island.

[Beacool]

148. I wouldn't call him brave.

[warrprayer]

4. The naked man in the tree

[rhett o rick]

8. "That's just Yossarian." nm

[warrprayer]

9. ;) n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

96. I need to re-read that book. nt

[think]

5. kick

[totodeinhere]

6. President Obama on whistleblowers in 2008

http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/

Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled as they have been during the Bush administration. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

86. There is a difference between Candidate Obama who said things he believed. . .

and President Obama who has been told by the PIC, MIC, TIC and DIC that if he rocks the boat, he will be JFKed.

Never underestimate wealthy powerbrokers with no morals who are above the law.

[juajen]

91. Yep, and it's particularly dangerous when you have

family threatened. It happens. That's why Ross Perot pulled out. His daughter who was getting married was threatened if he did not.

[marshall]

99. Wasn't she going to be outed as a lesbian?

I seem to recall something like that. And Perot was not used to such intense personal scrutiny.

[totodeinhere]

133. If President Obama will not do what is right out of fear for his life then we might as well

just give up. If that is the case we already would have a police state and Obama is just a figurehead. I would really hate to think that that is the case. And why should I work for Elizabeth Warren for president in 2016 if she will also be threatened with her life if she doesn't fall into line? If "they" have that much control I don't know what we average people can do short of a violent revolution and I don't see that in the cards.

BTW, I wonder if the NSA had flagged my comment because I mentioned revolution.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

143. people's army is strong. government's army has drones.

[Cal33]

149. Many, many books have been written about the assassination of the two Kennedys,

and also about the quality of the subsequent investigations that followed their
deaths. No one could come to any conclusion that was absolutely convincing.
It's a situation of "They just don't have adequate proof." Your guess is as
good as mine.

About Elizabeth Warren, I'd still love to see her run, and she'll get my support.

[eilen]

128. I've pretty much decided that Obama is opposite man.

I don't trust or believe a word he says, particularly during campaign season. Sorry folks.

[nradisic]

7. A true Patriot!

Holy Shit people. We have a full blown Constitutional Crisis. Obama has turned into such a disappointment. A few good moves, but he has basically continued most of Bush's policies when it comes to Guantanamo, Wars and this shit...

[Doremus]

139. +1000 nt

[Arctic Dave]

10. You are right. The US has bombed Chinese sovereignty before.

Will Obama drone him? Should we start a pool?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade

[adicortez]

11. A whistleblower?

Is he a whistleblower? A person can only be a whistleblower if the activity they are reporting is illegal. The government had warrants and court approval to make all of the requests that they did.

[SlimJimmy]

12. He is a whistle blower in the sense that he has exposed a secret program that is

much more intrusive than anything before it. Just because the government has made it *legal* does not make it right. With that said, he is not a whistle blower in the true sense since he had other options as a means to show the over-reach of the government. Releasing classified documents to a foreign entity (the UK press) is not the appropriate way to gain whistle blower status.

[christx30]

17. That presupposes t hat

someone else in this government would listen to him. Can you point to any member of Congress that would want to go against the NSA or Obama? Releasing the information to the media forces the issue out in the open. Just like they tell us all the time, if they aren't doing anything wrong, then what's there to hide?

[SlimJimmy]

78. I think some of the more independent Congressional members would be interested.

Those that understand the over-reach here by the NSA. As to his criminal liability, his goose is pretty much cooked for leaking classified information to a foreign entity.

[JDPriestly]

109. Wyden warned but had to be very vague in order to avoid

being accused of leaking himself.

Of course, I wonder whether a congressman couldn't just say whatever he wanted while in Congress. Congressmen have immunity when they are in Congress. Can't be tried for what they say.

[SlimJimmy]

117. I thnk it would be a fine line if they revealed classified information during one minute

speeches. But your point is well taken, they are immune from prosecution while acting in their official capacity.

[christx30]

120. But the more independent

Members of congress are pretty much powerless. They might get on a Sunday show and give a little information on the program, but it would go nowhere. Besides: if Obama is telling the truth, members of congress have been briefed on it more than 15 times. And said nothing. Either they were forbidden from saying anything, or they approved of the program. With that in mind, if you want to get the word out about something, the corrupt leaders of a corrupt government is not the way to go. You take your case directly to the American people.
You're right. He's fucked himself to get the info out. But they can't un-ring that bell no matter what they do to Snowden.

[SlimJimmy]

122. There seems to be some controversy in reference to the point I excerpted. Apparently

only those who were members of certain committees were briefed, others didn't have a clue about the program's scope.

Besides: if Obama is telling the truth, members of congress have been briefed on it more than 15 times. And said nothing.

President Barack Obama’s chief defense of his administration’s wide-ranging data-gathering programs Friday: Congress authorized them, with “every member” well aware of the details. Not so, say many members of Congress — Democrats and Republicans alike.

Typically, members of Congress “don’t receive this kind of briefing,” Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) told POLITICO Friday. They wouldn’t have known about the programs unless they were on an intelligence committee, attended special sessions last held in 2011 or specifically asked to be briefed – something they would only know to do if they were clued in by an colleague who was already aware.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/congress-nsa-prism-intelligence-briefing-92438.html

[christx30]

126. In which case, who would you trust?

Do you know which senators or representatives are receptive to NSA contractors that want to come clean about secret spying programs? Is there a website that I don't know about? How do you know you're actually going to get someone that will listen to you? And how do you know the FBI isn't going to show up and disappear you afterwards? He did the best thing he could have done under the circumstances.

[SlimJimmy]

130. I'm not necessarily saying what he did was wrong. But, becasue he did not go through the

appropriate IG or Congress, he doesn't have official whistle blower staus. He will certainly be held criminally liable for the leak if he returns to the United States.

As to what Congressional members to trust, I would have to look at their individual records on fouth amendment issues and make an educated guess as to who would be receptive.

[christx30]

144. I still wouldn't trust a member of congress

Even if Rep. Joe Blow (D, Statesville) was very pro-4th amendment, he might be nervous about receiving classified information he's not authorized to have from a contractor from the NSA. And he would probably contact the NSA and FBI just to protect himself, and the information wouldn't have gotten out. There are no 100% correct answers in this. But I think Snowden did the right thing here. He was willing to give up everything to make sure we knew about what is being done in our name. I hope wherever he is, he's safe.

[SlimJimmy]

145. Unfortunately, he only had two choices to gain whistle blower status. Either inform

the appropriate IG or Congress. In releasing the information to a foreign entity (UK newspaper) he violated the law. I have no doubt that the US government will come after him for that. With that said, I'm pleased that the information is out to the general public. My personal belief is that it's a giant over-reach by the NSA, and never what FISA was designed to do.

[christx30]

146. Sadly, I agree.

He's not going to get any protections except for making himself disappear.
But I'm glad the information is out too. It's undermined a lot of trust. People are asking a lot of uncomfortable questions. This would not have happened if it had gone through congress. You get a congressperson standing at a bank of microphones telling the American people that he's going to launch an investigation into the NSA, and that would be largely ignored. No one actually expects it's going to go anywhere.

[Katashi_itto]

115. By law, NSA's intelligence gathering is limited to foreign communications

One could argue the blanket sweep of PRSIM is overreach.

[SlimJimmy]

116. I agree, and I've made that argument in other threads.

[Katashi_itto]

123. Cool

[Malik Agar]

13. Unconstitutional = ILLEGAL

A phony court can rubber-stamp something all day and it does not make it legal.

[cstanleytech]

25. The FISA courts are not a phony court they are a compromise designed to

allow the government to due its job while hopefully adhering to the constitution as close as possible given the circumstances.
If as you claim they were phony then SCOTUS would have stepped in long ago and said as much.

[totodeinhere]

31. I don't trust this SCOTUS with its conservative majority to do anything right.

Besides that, the FISA courts are nothing more than rubber stamps. Thye always grant to the government everything it wants.

[cstanleytech]

34. Big leap there that you did

"Besides that, the FISA courts are nothing more than rubber stamps. Thye always grant to the government everything it wants."
Unless..............are you on the FISA courts?
Reason I ask is I dont know the % of requests they approve as I am not part of the FISA courts myself.
Or maybe you read it online in which case a link would ever so helpful, thanks.

[totodeinhere]

43. Google the phrase "fisa court rubber stamp" and you will get better than 23,000 hits. n/t

[cstanleytech]

44. I could also google the phrase "cute kitten" and get 68,500,000 results. nt

[totodeinhere]

45. You asked for a link and I suggested that you Google that phrase and

you will get plenty of links.

[emulatorloo]

52. Google "Obama Born In Kenya," you'll get lots of links too

Quantity of Google hits does not equal quality or truthfulness of information.

[cstanleytech]

77. "Quantity of Google hits does not equal quality or truthfulness of information." Bingo!!

[GoneFishin]

97. FISA requests rarely if ever denied. Rubberstamped.

Despite Obama’s claim, FISA court rarely much of a check

In 2012, the government made 1,789 applications to the court — one was withdrawn by the government and 40 were modified by the court, but “the FISC did not deny any applications in whole or in part,” the report states. In 2011, there were 1,676 applications, of which two were withdrawn and 30 modified, but once again, “The FISC did not deny any applications in whole, or in part.” In 2010, there were 1,511 applications, of which five were withdrawn and 14 modified, but “The FISC did not deny any applications in whole, or in part.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/07/despite_obamas_claim_fisa_court_rarely_much_of_a_check/

[JoeyT]

85. No one knows and that's the problem.

What percentage of requests are denied? We're not going to tell you. How many requests are made? We're not going to tell you. Who's on it? Not going to tell you. What constitutes probable cause? Not going to tell you.

The defenders of this crap can yell about checks and balances all they want, but when they're kept completely secret so we don't know anything about how they work, or if they're being used at all, they're not really a check or balance, are they?

[cstanleytech]

87. Oh I agree they could be a tad more open on basic info like

how many requests for wiretaps were made and how many were granted but other that
I mean telling groups planning to bomb an event that they are being wiretapped kinda would defeat the whole purpose of the wiretap wouldnt it?

[JoeyT]

88. Not really.

There's a huge amount of space between letting a specific target know they're being wiretapped and blanket warrants that let them data mine. I doubt you'd find anyone upset about the government going to a judge and getting a warrant to wiretap someone. It's when they get to the "Everyone is a potential terrorist, so we're gonna need a warrant that covers 300 million people." stage people start getting upset.

[cstanleytech]

90. Except Obama stated that the feds arent listening in to everyones phonecalls but

(assuming I understand how it was explained) the program is being used to try to link up people with someone who is being wiretapped and or to see if they call a common number maybe to use as a middleman and that congress was being kept in the loop which makes sense seeing as they are the ones that have to vote to fund such stuff.

[JDPriestly]

111. The program theoretically would allow the executive to peruse

the phone records of political foes. But the political foes would have no access to similar records about the sitting president or people on the president's staff.

It pretty much gives total power to the president because all he has to do is make up some argument about why he has probable cause to investigate some political foe, and he has that foe's records including the content of calls at his fingertips.

[cstanleytech]

125. Thats partly why the FISA courts exists JD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act#History


"The FISA resulted from extensive investigations by Senate Committees into the legality of domestic intelligence activities. These investigations were led separately by Sam Ervin and Frank Church in 1978 as a response to President Richard Nixon’s usage of federal resources to spy on political and activist groups, which violates the Fourth Amendment.[4] The act was created to provide Judicial and congressional oversight of the government's covert surveillance activities of foreign entities and individuals in the United States, while maintaining the secrecy needed to protect national security. It allowed surveillance, without court order, within the United States for up to one year unless the "surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party". If a United States person is involved, judicial authorization was required within 72 hours after surveillance begins."

[JDPriestly]

110. The FISA courts were devised before we developed the

vast technology of the internet that we have today.

I think Congress needs to revisit the concept of FISA. It is not protecting our freedom or the oversight capacity of Congress. This massive surveillance capacity gives the executive overwhelming power. And this capacity is possible because of the increased ability of computers to process huge amounts of information very quickly.

We need new laws and we need to impose severe penalties or a exact a high political price for any executive that violates them.

[brentspeak]

14. Warrants and "court approval" from a secret FISA rubber-stamp court n/t

[PSPS]

21. Yes, he's a whistleblower

You are assuming this is not illegal only because you are told to believe so and, then, to shut up and go shopping or something. We have no way of knowing anything about the legal status of any of this because, we are told, the laws permitting it are "secret" as are any "legal interpretations" supporting such a claim. Every official explanation and excuse surrounding this outrage always comes with the veil of "secrecy." Nothing they claim can be verified because, you see, it's all "a secret." When I hear that, experience tells me it's all being made up merely to placate.

[RC]

124. AKA

[font size="10"]Star Chamber[/font]

Star Chamber ( stär) n. 1. A 15th-century to 17th-century English court consisting of judges who were appointed by the Crown and sat in closed session on cases involving state security.
2. star chamber A court or group that engages in secret, harsh, or arbitrary procedures. [So called because the ceiling of the original courtroom was decorated with stars]

No matter how this is defended, it is still a component part of a Star Chamber. How do Star Chambers square with he Constitution?
How does all this evidence data square with the 4th Amendment?

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 4
Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

No matter how you slice and dice it, it is blatantly Unconstitutional.

[bananas]

24. Not true - here's a list of whistleblowers

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers

The very first one on that listblew the whistle on the Tuskegee syphilis experiments - which were legal but unethical.

Mordechai Vanunu is also pn that list - he blew the whistle on Israels nuclear weapons program, even though it wasn't illegal.

[Babel_17]

58. good catch! (nt)

[bananas]

27. US Federal Government Whistleblower Awareness Poster

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower

[joshcryer]

49. The acts to enable this are unconstitutional.

And therefore illegal.

[pscot]

51. And that's another crime

Does the Constitution mean anything at all?

[Le Taz Hot]

107. Once upon a time Jim Crow laws were legal in this country

as well. Didn't make it right. I find it fascinating that anyone on DU thinks that "the government had warrants and court approval to make all of the requests that they did" doesn't even question that statement. All that proves is that the problem is systemic.

[pnwmom]

15. He worked at Booz Allen? I wonder who's funding his crisis of conscience?

How's he going to make his living in Hong Kong or wherever?

[totodeinhere]

22. Yes, he was working at an NSA contractor.

How else could he have gotten information like this? I consider him a patriot along the lines of Ellsberg and Manning. I am not going to cynically assume that he was paid to do this just because a Democrat happens to be sitting in White House. If we get evidence to the contrary then of course I will change my attitude.

[markiv]

32. correct, only someone inside would have ever found out nt

[kiranon]

95. He only worked for 3 months and ends up in Hong Kong? Something

doesn't compute. There is more to this story than his being just a whistleblower.

[MADem]

113. He worked there for less than three months, too.

He didn't get too far into that two hundred grand a year salary.

[mfcorey1]

16. No hero.

[EC]

18. Really?

yet he's living in China and says that China has a history of supporting free speech? Wow. okay. Good luck finding a place where you aren't being tracked by someone at all times. Corps wanted to put chips into products to track their use...they likely already did that..everything you buy with those little membership fops on your keychain track you and the info is sold times over. So why is this such an outrage? There is a difference in agendas between corp and country I guess, but I gotta say, I trust the government more than I trust corps.

[d06204]

20. HERE! HERE!

Now he's in China. What you bet the Chinese don't want to pick his brain for more secrets? He is not a hero.

[still_one]

59. One thing I know, he leaked confidential classified information to the news media. That is a crime

[Psephos]

55. You really don't seem to realize there is no difference between govt. and corps.

But you will.

[EC]

64. That's where you're wrong.

I know there is a difference. Corps have no oversight.

[Psephos]

70. I mean you no ill, but you're naive. Neither has oversight. And they have partnered up.

I used to think the same way. Perhaps you will re-evaluate the evidence. We need all the help we can get.

[MADem]

19. I'll bet the Chinese will be more than happy to give him a home.

He might not like their rules, either, though.

[totodeinhere]

23. He might be safer in China. And that's a sad commentary on our

country to even contemplate that possibility given the dismal Chinese human rights record.

[cstanleytech]

28. Or, totodeinhere he decided to sell out everything he knows to China;

That is another possibility given Chinas recent history with things like hacking into other governments computers.

[totodeinhere]

30. The truth will eventually come out. For now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt

just as we all deserve that benefit until there is information to the contrary.

[cstanleytech]

36. Oh so am I as its to early to tell but if he does you can bet he will be moving up to

#1 on the US governments most wanted list dead or alive though of course that assumes he even knows anything really big that the government doesnt want China to know about.

[MADem]

93. Well, you're in the increasing minority, it would seem.

Former CIA case officer Bob Baer revealed on CNN Sunday evening that intelligence officials were possibly considering Edward Snowden’s case as Chinese espionage, after Snowden came forward this afternoon from an undisclosed Hong Kong location.

“Hong Kong is controlled by Chinese intelligence,” Baer said. “It’s not an independent part of China at all. I’ve talked to a bunch of people in Washington today, in official positions, and they are looking at this as a potential Chinese espionage case.”

“On the face of it, it looks like it is under some sort of Chinese control, especially with the president meeting the premier today,” Baer said. “You have to ask what’s going on. China is not a friendly country and every aspect of that country is controlled. So why Hong Kong? Why didn’t he go to Sweden? Or, if he really wanted to make a statement, he should have done it on Capitol Hill.”

According to Glenn Greenwald, Snowden said he chose Hong Kong because “‘they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent,’ and because he believed that it was one of the few places in the world that both could and would resist the dictates of the US government.”

(Editorial Comment--Cough--Horseshit--cough )

CNN host Fredericka Whitfield asked if there was any chance of China extraditing Snowden.

“We’ll never get him in China,” Baer said. “They’re not about to send him to the United States and the CIA is not going to render him, as he said in the tape, is not going to try to grab him there.”


Much more at: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/former-cia-officer-officials-considering-nsa-whistleblowers-case-potential-chinese-espionage/

[totodeinhere]

105. Just because a former CIA officer is saying that doesn't put me in the minority.

And just because he claims to have talked to a "bunch of people in Washington" whatever that means doesn't impress me either. And you would expect someone who worked for the CIA, an agency that has blood on its hands going back to its murder of Salvador Allende and its engineering of the 1953 Iranian coup d'état overthrowing a Democratically elected leftist government.

Julian Assange is in exile from the authorities as well although in his case he is holed up at an embassy. Brave souls such as Assange and Snowden know that they are taking great risks. And yes he will probably have to stay in China. That's obvious. The headline in the Guardian which I linked to quoted him as saying "I do not expect to see home again." China probably will not extradite him just like Ecuador will not extradite Julian Assange. But that doesn't mean that either Assange or Bowden are spies working for foreign countries.

Of course representatives of the military industrial complex and our spy agencies are going to say anything they can to try to discredit him. I'm sure he knew that when he made his brave decision to come forward.

[MADem]

50. I just hope he's not been given a massive payday by those guys.

Time will tell.

I don't think he's safer in China. He's a useful tool for now. When tools are no longer useful, well, they usually get tossed.

It's just not normal for someone to blow up their world like this--shit on their job, their girlfriend, their fancy home, etc. Something else--beyond "patriotism" or "I don't wanna live in a world where (fill in blank)" is going on with this guy.

If this guy really believed in the unconstitutionality of these programs, and wanted to "whistle-blow," why didn't he go to the select committees in the House or Senate, and speak to chairs or ranking members about his concerns? It's possible to have one's cake and eat it too--report instances of suspected wrongdoing to people charged with oversight, but not report methods, sources and tactics to the fricken enemy--which is what this guy did. At least he wasn't able to name names--unlike Manning.

As I've said elsewhere, if I were a terrist, and I found out about this program, ah'd either swipe or clone someone's "smaht"-phone and use it to make my dastardly calls, access my sneaky terrist yahoo or gee mail draft folders, etc. That way, it would totally fuck those guys over....

And that's probably what they'll do in future...send the spies chasing after nuns and teachers and schmucks who haven't ever left the country and don't intend to any time soon. The old "I'll really give you something to cry about" scenario. Who knows, maybe that was the purpose of all this excitement...

[nebenaube]

68. that's what usually happens...

get a clue...

[MADem]

71. Maybe not....he could be depressed, and thinking that he's on a dramatic personal journey

that will end in some sort of "punishment" up to and including "suicide by international cop."

It's impossible to know what his motivations are, but all I can say is, someone who leaves a family that they claim to love, and a girlfriend they claim to love, and a great job with a salary I'd love to earn, and a house in paradise, has something going on.

It's not just 'patriotism' driving his train, or the whole "I don't want to live in a world where...." declarations, because there are other ways to fix the problem he seems to feel he has, and he didn't use--or even try-- any of the other avenues available to him. He went straight to the last resort, as though he wanted the big explosion at the end of the action movie.

There's program oversight happening WRT this covert program from not one, but three branches, and additionally there is a bifurcated opportunity to discuss problems at the Congressional level (House and Senate Intel committees). He didn't even try those routes before he called Greenwald (and why him of all people? Why not someone with a bit more cred?) and ran off to China.

That is a real puzzlement to me.

All I know is that there is MUCH we don't know. I can wait, though. Time always tells!

[asjr]

26. Wow! What drama!

[totodeinhere]

29. Paul Krugman: Government Tilting Towards ‘Authoritarian Surveillance’ State

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/paul-krugman-government-tilting-towards-authoritarian-surveillance-state/

Mike Rogers: Glenn Greenwald 'Doesn't Have A Clue' About NSA Surveillance

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/09/mike-rogers-glenn-greenwald_n_3411864.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

This controversy is producing some strange bedfellows. Here we have that rethug jerk Mike Rogers saying essentially what some posters here at DU are saying. But I'll tell you what. As usual I agree with Paul Krugman. It is gratifying to see him taking a stand on this issue.

[deurbano]

46. I also agree with Krugman, and I don't understand why anyone would trust Rogers on this issue...

...(or Feinstein, for that matter).

[Dawson Leery]

135. There is no reason to trust Rogers and Feinstein.

[timdog44]

33. Let me repost here what I posted elsewhere.

Edward Joseph Snowden is a technical contractor and a whistleblower who released classified material on the United States National Security Agency's PRISM surveillance program.

Personal life

In 2003, Edward Snowden enlisted in the United States Army. He was discharged after breaking both of his legs in a training accident. He then went to work as a security guard for a covert NSA facility at the University of Maryland. After that he went to the CIA, where he worked on IT security. In 2007 the CIA stationed him with diplomatic cover in Geneva, Switzerland, where he was responsible for maintaining computer network security. Leaving the CIA in 2009, he worked for a private contractor inside an NSA facility on a United States military base in Japan.

At the time of his departure from the US in May 2013, he was working for defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton inside of the NSA in Hawaii. He described his life as "very comfortable", living with his girlfriend and earning a salary of "roughly $200,000." He arrived in Hong Kong and began living in a hotel room, where he provided an interview to The Guardian.

The Chinese lost a valuable asset and the Muslim are calling him a Hero ....



Here are members or past member of "Boose" Allen

Jonathan Black - Director, Corporate Affairs, University of Oxford
Rohit Bhagat - Global Chief Operating Officer, Barclays Global Investors
Sir (Francis) Christopher Buchan Bland - Chairman of the Royal Shakespeare Company, and former Chairman of British Telecommunications PLC
Chipper Boulas - Venture advisor in Paris, France and former Vice President of Corporate Strategy, eBay
Jonathan S. Bush - President, CEO, and Co-founder of athenaHealth
Art Collins - Chairman and CEO, Medtronic, Inc.
Tim Collins - Founder and Chief Executive of Ripplewood Holdings
Edward C. Davies (Ted) - Managing Partner, Unisys Federal Systems
Karen Fawcett - Director, Standard Chartered Bank Malaysia
Richard Gay - Senior Vice President of Strategy and Business Operations for VH1 and CMT, MTV Networks
Rhonda Germany - Vice President of Strategy and Business Development, Honeywell
Patrick Gorman - Senior Vice President and Chief Information Security Officer (SVP/CISO), Bank of America
Gerry Horkan - Vice President of Corporate Strategy, Yahoo! Inc.
Paul Idzik - Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, Barclays PLC
Abigail Johnson - President of Fidelity Investments
Raymond J. Lane - General Partner at Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers; Chairman of the Board of Trustees at Carnegie Mellon University, former President and Chief Operating Officer of Oracle Corporation and chairman of Hewlett-Packard
Edward J. O'Hare - Chief Information Officer for the U.S. General Services Administration's's Federal Acquisition Service; former Assistant Commissioner, General Services Administration, and former VP at Dynanet
Torsten Oltmanns - currently Global Marketing Director at Roland Berger Strategy Consultants and Assistant Prof. at University of Innsbruck
Todd Y. Park - Co-founder and Chief Development Officer of Athena Health
Mark DeSantis - Chief Executive Officer of ANGLE Technology Consulting and Management and former CEO and President of Formation3 LLC
Stan Scoggins - Vice President of Worldwide Digital Assets, Universal Studios
Owen Nieberg - Chief Operating Officer, All About Braces
Deven Sharma - President, Standard & Poor's and VP for global strategy at The McGraw-Hill Companies
Michael Wolf - Former president and COO of MTV Networks

[HipChick]

38. Many of these IT companies have federal divisions...nothing to see here

Except for his claim of $200K salary...and he'll never again be able to hold a clearance..

[timdog44]

40. I thought this to relevant

"The Chinese lost a valuable asset and the Muslim are calling him a Hero .... "

[HipChick]

41. So he was working for the Chinese?

rut-roh!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

80. No. It's Wikipedia bullshit that's already been deleted.

[John2]

35. He cited Bradley

Manning as a whistle blower. You know, I have to agree with everything he said. The Government has went too far to the right. They are prosecuting people for illegalities, but the government is not a good example of doing things legally. They are also hypocrits. I just shake my head when the President of China and the United States gets together, on some ranch in California, pointing the fingers at other countries, for the same things they are doing. On the Nuclear issue, China and the U.S. both have large stockpiles of nuclear weapons. China got them to defend themselves against the U.S. When North Korea asked the Chinese to help them with a nuclear program for the same reasons, China refused. Now that North Korea obtained the technology on their own, the Chinese wants to dictate to them. If you want to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula, then set the example yourselves. The U.S. needs to remove nuclear weapons from Turkey and all their allies. China needs to start destroying their stockpiles. It seems when people get to a certain status, they change and become part of some elite club. President Obama was elected for a reason, and he should respect the people that voted for him. If you cannot respect the people who voted for you, then don't ask for their votes. they did not vote for you to enact the same Policies of the other side. Everybody heard what Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan had to say. They were rejected. There was no need to call Mitt Romney to the White house because you thought he had good ideas. If that was the case, then you should have drop out and conceded to him. The country did not vote for compromise on anything. They voted for someone, they thought was going to fight for their issues.

[timdog44]

37. And to this

I say that to denuclearize the midEast that Israel needs to destroy their stockpile of nuclear weapons. Shock, shock. Israel has nuclear weapons? Check it out.

The best place for the president of the USA is to be talking with the president of China. You don't negotiate with your buddies. Unless of course it happens to be Israel, remember the USS Liberty. There are a lot of ex servicemen who still do.

[cstanleytech]

42. "The U.S. needs to remove nuclear weapons from Turkey and all their allies"

Wow, you really are behind the times.
The US and Russia have both been gradually reducing the number of nuclear weapons worldwide for decades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.svg

As for our allies............thats up to them if they want us to remove them though not all of them were built by the US as the UK and France have their own so we cant exactly remove them from those two nations not unless you are advocating we do so by force.

[summer-hazz]

65. +!000

Obama was elected for a reason, and he should respect the people that voted for him. If you cannot respect the people who voted for you, then don't ask for their votes. they did not vote for you to enact the same Policies of the other side. Everybody heard what Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan had to say. They were rejected. There was no need to call Mitt Romney to the White house because you thought he had good ideas. If that was the case, then you should have drop out and conceded to him. The country did not vote for compromise on anything. They voted for someone, they thought was going to fight for their issues.

[blkmusclmachine]

39. .

.

[1StrongBlackMan]

47. From the article ...

"I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things … I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under."

So Snowden's disclosure was not based on exposing a crime or corruption or wrongful governmental conduct; but rather, his personal sense of what should or shouldn't be? That doesn't make him a whistle-blower; but rather, a person acting on his own sense of right and wrong.

So based on this ... If I were in possession of the nuclear codes or other classified nuclear secrets and one day woke up having a strong moral conviction that nuclear weaponry was a moral and existential threat to America ... would I be hailed as a whistle-blower hero, when I were to make public my knowledge?

[Cha]

56. So, he flees to China?

[1StrongBlackMan]

61. Did he? ...

Please tell me he didn't ... cuz that would add a whole nother angle to this non-scandal "scandal."

[Cha]

62. And, apparently he "stuffs pillows against the door.."

Although, not sure why?

Snowden is now holed up in Hong Kong, in a hotel room where, according to the Guardian, he stuffs pillows against the doors and “puts a large red hood over his head and laptop when entering his passwords.“

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/06/edward-snowden-the-nsa-leaker-comes-forward.html

[Major Hogwash]

66. That won't help him.

This was from just last month --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014485476

[Cha]

73. Sorry, Major.. what

does that have to do with Snowden holding up in China?

[Major Hogwash]

75. The guy in Boise did the same kind of thing.

He stuffed a blanket at the bottom of the door to his apartment so that no light would shine out of the apartment in to the hallway, so no one would know when he was home, up late at night.
He had placed cardboard on the walls of his apartment to try and soundproof it.
He had taped tin foil over the windows at the back of his apartment to prevent any light from going through the windows, so his neighbors wouldn't know when he was home, up late at night.

All the while, he was typing out shit on the internet about how to make bombs.
It was a secret grand jury in Boise that gave the FBI the right to obtain a warrant to arrest him and to search his apartment.
Where they found his computer, with all of his rants and videos of making bombs.
A secret grand jury was held in Utah for the same person, too.

So, much for those who are whining about the secret FISA court system.
Secret grand juries have been a time-tested and honored tradition used in the American legal system for over 200 years.

[Cha]

76. Thanks! Sorry, I didn't

read that part, obviously

[DisgustipatedinCA]

81. Actually reading the article would help you understand

[FairWinds]

48. Nuclear Weapons . .

are crimes against humanity - even simply possessing them.
So yes, anything you can do to oppose them is entirely moral and patriotic.
Check out the Vets for Peace Golden Rule Project.

One of my former students blew the whistle on an auto dealership that was
secretly foisting unequal loans to minorities. I was really proud of him.
But of course it cost him his job.

[1StrongBlackMan]

60. I would be proud of that student too ...

there are laws against discrimination.

But in a democracy, we cannot/should not surplant our political/moral positions for that of the whole of society. If you were to disclose nuclear "secrets", you should be prosecuted ... But if you were disclosing them on moral grounds, you should be okay with that.

[CanonRay]

53. We should be putting up statues of this guy; he's a true hero and patriot

[lanlady]

54. He works for my company, Booz Allen

This is going to get ugly. Our CEO is probably drawing up a memo right now to disavow Snowden's actions.

[southernyankeebelle]

57. I sure have mixed feelings on what this man has done. You know when you work

for the government in civil service, FBI, CIA or even the military you swear to protect america. This man worked for the CIA and he knew for sure that the organization wasn't for choir boys. I don't know what to think. He has given away a lot of our government secrets I think. Yet I feel our government shouldn't be doing some of the stuff going on. There should be something done so nothing like this ever happens again. I think this young man should come home because they will never leave him alone and he won't find peace. Yet I feel he was right also. Eeeeek gosh I feel terrible for him and yet upset he has given away secrets.

[Jesus Malverde]

63. bump..nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

67. HERO. This man has bravery and balls. n/t

J

[cstanleytech]

89. How is he a hero? Most of us not living under rocks have known for years

and I mean years that the feds have been interested in telecommunications wiretapping so how do you figure this fellow is a hero? Also it cant exactly be treason either since most of already knew it was going on now can it?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

100. Daniel Ellsberg puts it better than most (VIDEO)

#!

[Psephos]

104. Great video. n/t

[cstanleytech]

106. Its nearly 1:40 am here so am tired to forgive me but I dont see what that video does to prove

that this guy is a hero or even a traitor for that matter for revealing that the nsa was gathering the telecommunication metadata that the phone companies store already themselves when we have all known that the feds have been doing or trying to do stuff like that since the carnivore days.

[NoodleyAppendage]

142. Because unlike you he has put is life and livelihood on the line.

This guy gave up a 200K/yr job in Hawaii to follow his conscience and revealed the information not for his own gain but because he didn't want to live in a surveillance state. That's my definition of the word hero.

J

[ChiTownChavista]

69. Obama or Snowden...

I think I'll trust Obama.

[Psephos]

72. Why does it have to be a choice between Snowden and Obama?

This is about not trusting something WAY bigger than either of them.

[Kablooie]

74. Exposing himself may help keep him alive.

If they found him while being anonymous he could be eliminated without anyone suspecting.
If something happens to him now, it could reflect back on the administration.

He's still at risk but at least he would become a martyr.

If this news is all true he certainly IS a hero.

[MADem]

92. Oh, look....one more ingredient for the hopper....

I said he's either turned or has mental illness...or maybe both. And boom goes the dynamite...

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/former-cia-officer-officials-considering-nsa-whistleblowers-case-potential-chinese-espionage/

Former CIA case officer Bob Baer revealed on CNN Sunday evening that intelligence officials were possibly considering Edward Snowden’s case as Chinese espionage, after Snowden came forward this afternoon from an undisclosed Hong Kong location.

“Hong Kong is controlled by Chinese intelligence,” Baer said. “It’s not an independent part of China at all. I’ve talked to a bunch of people in Washington today, in official positions, and they are looking at this as a potential Chinese espionage case.”

“On the face of it, it looks like it is under some sort of Chinese control, especially with the president meeting the premier today,” Baer said. “You have to ask what’s going on. China is not a friendly country and every aspect of that country is controlled. So why Hong Kong? Why didn’t he go to Sweden? Or, if he really wanted to make a statement, he should have done it on Capitol Hill.”

According to Glenn Greenwald, Snowden said he chose Hong Kong because “‘they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent,’ and because he believed that it was one of the few places in the world that both could and would resist the dictates of the US government.”


(EDITORIAL COMMENT: )

CNN host Fredericka Whitfield asked if there was any chance of China extraditing Snowden.

“We’ll never get him in China,” Baer said. “They’re not about to send him to the United States and the CIA is not going to render him, as he said in the tape, is not going to try to grab him there.”.....

[roamer65]

94. Lee Harvey Oswald saw home again.

Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

[roamer65]

98. So run to a Chinese protectorate where monitoring is even worse.

Highly suspect.

[Autumn]

101. K/R n/t

[SoapBox]

102. Good Bye and Good Riddance.

With all the "moral outrage" going on...WHY would Americans be supporting this guy and
the MURDOCH owned Guardian?

I could give a crap about this...if the NSA wanted the records I simply do not care...I call Mom's Cardiologist and check in at my work...analysis and listen away...I've NOTHING to hide.

What do all you "moral outrage" folks have to hide?

This whole thing is such bullshit, in a day and age of TERRORISTS that would love another 9/11.

I hope somebody kicks this worm's ass.

[Douglas Carpenter]

103. obviously the center-left leaning Guardian is not owned by Murdoch

The Guardian newspaper and Guardian Media Group are owned by The Scott Trust Limited, which was created in 1936 to protect the legacy of the longstanding editor and former owner of the Guardian, CP Scott. The GMG is a company in the United Kingdom owning various mass media operations including The Guardian, The Observer and the Manchester Evening News.

[eissa]

132. Don't let the back door smack ya

where the good lord cracked ya. Yeah, run to China, no government listens to your phone calls there

I was searching the net for some license plate frames, and all of a sudden every website I visited miraculously had ads for license plate frames. We're perfectly fine with corporations invading our non-existent privacy, but the government taking precautions to ensure that another terrorist attack occur on our soil -- OH, THE HORROR!

[alp227]

108. He is seeking asylum and already is getting Justice Department scrutiny

Snowden said he is seeking “asylum from any countries that believe in free speech and oppose the victimization of global privacy,” but the law appears to provide for his extradition from Hong Kong, a semiautonomous territory of China, to the United States.

Although any extradition proceeding could take months or even years, experts said Snowden has not put himself in a favorable position.

“The fact that he outed himself and basically said, from what I understand he has said, ‘I feel very comfortable with what I have done’ .?.?. that’s not going to help him in his extradition contest,” said Douglas McNabb, a lawyer and extradition expert.

The Justice Department said it is in the “initial stages of an investigation” into the unauthorized disclosure of classified information but declined to comment further.

(Washington Post, Edward Snowden comes forward as source of NSA leaks)

[MADem]

112. Regina Ip urges Snowden to leave (Pro-Beijing senior lawmaker in Hong Kong)

A senior pro-Beijing lawmaker said the US whistleblower Edward Snowden, who is believed to be holed up in Hong Kong after leaking details of a massive secret internet surveillance program, should leave the city.
Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee, formerly the city's top official overseeing security, said the administration was “obliged to comply with the terms of agreements'' with the US government, which included the extradition of fugitives, AFP reports.
“It's actually in his best interest to leave Hong Kong,'' she said, adding that she did not know whether the government had yet received an extradition request. “I doubt it will happen so quickly,'' she said.
Both the US consulate and Hong Kong government declined comment so far.
“To extradite someone will probably require a lot of process in Hong Kong,'' Law Yuk-kai, director of the city's Human Rights Monitor watchdog group, said.
“Anybody here in Hong Kong should be protected under international standards. We hope anybody here will be dealt with fairly and their rights are respected.''
Snowden, a former technical assistant for the CIA, worked for the NSA as an employee of various outside contractors, including Dell and Booz Allen Hamilton.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_news_detail.asp?id=37388&icid=1&d_str=

[ElsewheresDaughter]

114. Snowden meet Manning ....HEROs

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

119. What is he implying? That the big, evil black Muslim from Kenya is going to kill him?

[LovingA2andMI]

121. It seems on a random unscientific poll.....the public is siding with.....

Ed Snowden.....

POLL
Do you think the government is overstepping its authority by collecting emails and phone records?
Yes, they should step back (93643) - your vote
56%

The need to fight terror outweighs it (40763)
24%

I'd be more outraged with companies giving it away (13681)
8%

I don't want to answer because I know they're watching (20613)
12%

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-staunchly-defends-us-government-170049968.html

Nothing such, there is a Facebook Page "We Stand With Ed Snowden" if you would like to join

[Harmony Blue]

127. Snowden and Manning are heroes

[lovuian]

137. It appears that some of those who served our country in Iraq and Afghanistan

indeed know that America is not the home of the free but the home of Big Brother
The reality is we are an a Orwellian State

I love a line in series Pillars of the Earth

"You beat a dog enough
someday he will bite you"

today the "Powers to Be" got Bit

[Beacool]

147. That's just Mr. ex KGB trying to stick it to the US.

If Putin cared about freedom of expression, the girls from Pussy Riot would have never been jailed.