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Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:44 AM

 

Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent


Oversight Amendments to FISA Crumble in US Senate: Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
Even modest attempts to reign in domestic spying law fail as Senators defend sweeping powers for NSA


- Jon Queally, staff writer

Four separate amendments designed to install oversight mechanisms into the National Intelligence Agency's vast spying capabilities enshrined in the 2008 FISA Amendments Act all failed Thursday with the majority of US Senators insisting that secrecy continues to trump civil liberties in the post 9/11 era.

With a final vote for full passage of the bill expected Friday, the defeat of the amendments spells near complete legalization of domestic spying practices which would have previously been found criminal. First uncovered during the Bush years and slammed by Democrats, the FISA law passed in 2008 gave retroactive immunity to the Bush era abuse and strove to codify the program going forward.

Though he ran against such measures during his first run for president, the secret spying laws have now been embraced fully and championed by President Obama.

Rights groups and advocates of the amendments voiced outrage with the votes.

...

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/12/28

57 replies, 4118 views

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Arrow 57 replies Author Time Post
Reply Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent (Original post)
JReed Dec 2012 OP
woo me with science Dec 2012 #1
ProSense Dec 2012 #8
woo me with science Dec 2012 #10
ProSense Dec 2012 #11
woo me with science Dec 2012 #14
byeya Dec 2012 #26
ProSense Dec 2012 #38
BobbyBoring Dec 2012 #32
ProSense Dec 2012 #39
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #36
ProSense Dec 2012 #41
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #43
leftstreet Dec 2012 #27
woo me with science Dec 2012 #50
Kolesar Dec 2012 #2
fredamae Dec 2012 #3
Enrique Dec 2012 #4
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #5
woo me with science Dec 2012 #17
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #37
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #46
Turbineguy Dec 2012 #6
JReed Dec 2012 #12
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #7
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #9
fredamae Dec 2012 #13
woo me with science Dec 2012 #52
X_Digger Dec 2012 #15
Octafish Dec 2012 #16
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #18
Poll_Blind Dec 2012 #20
Octafish Dec 2012 #24
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #40
Octafish Dec 2012 #54
woo me with science Dec 2012 #49
theaocp Dec 2012 #19
marble falls Dec 2012 #21
OnyxCollie Dec 2012 #22
Swede Atlanta Dec 2012 #23
woo me with science Dec 2012 #51
FlyByNight Dec 2012 #25
4Q2u2 Dec 2012 #28
TheProgressive Dec 2012 #29
Smilo Dec 2012 #30
spedtr90 Dec 2012 #31
JReed Dec 2012 #45
Sheepshank Dec 2012 #33
Kolesar Dec 2012 #44
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #34
Catherina Dec 2012 #35
woo me with science Dec 2012 #48
hughee99 Dec 2012 #42
ieoeja Dec 2012 #47
JReed Dec 2012 #53
woo me with science Dec 2012 #55
JReed Dec 2012 #57
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #56

Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:47 AM

1. "Constitutional Scholar" President,

defending, enabling, pushing this fascistic garbage.

Have we had enough yet, America? Is it serious yet?

Do we understand the real problem yet, America?







Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022084702

The Enemy Expatriation Act - another attack on legitimate protest and dissent like NDAA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022072450

FBI Investigated 'Occupy' As Possible 'Domestic Terrorism' Threat, Internal Documents Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061578

NDAA 2013 - Indefinite detention without trial is back
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014342985

Congress, at Last Minute, Drops Requirement to Obtain Warrant to Monitor Email
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014348022

Democratic-controlled US Senate approves...new $633 billion war bill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022060449

Purposely aiming bombs at children: "It kind of opens our aperture."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021931748

Obama Administration To Offer More Than 20 Million Acres in Western Gulf of Mexico for Oil/Drilling
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1896005

Obama's (Corporate) Education Reform Push is Bad Education Policy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x221922

Trans Pacific Partnership is NAFTA On Steroids
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1914478

NYT slams the government for choosing not to prosecute HSBC top-bankers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965407


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Response to woo me with science (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:02 AM

8. "Do we understand the real problem yet, America?"

Yes, it's President Obama.

Who the fuck elected that guy? You?

"had enough yet, America? Is it serious yet? "

Yes. What are you proposing?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:06 AM

10. Defend this Prosense.

I fucking dare you.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:08 AM

11. Wait

Defend this Prosense.

I fucking dare you.


I made a statement and asked you a question:

"Do we understand the real problem yet, America?"

Yes, it's President Obama.

Who the fuck elected that guy? You?

"had enough yet, America? Is it serious yet? "

Yes. What are you proposing?

What's your answer?

I " fucking dare you" to answer.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:43 AM

14. What are you trying to imply, Prosense?

If you have a ridiculous, ludicrous, defamatory accusation to make, spit it out. How DARE you imply that I have anything to say politically that I can't write on this board.

How dare you.

What I have written on these boards is clear. I want Americans to stand up together and let these craven politicians know that we will no longer tolerate being sold out and our rights taken away. I want this President publicly confronted by the media and by American citizens and forced to answer questions about supporting these policies that are antithetical to everything this country is supposed to stand for. I want an antidote to the corporate media that ignores every single step our politicians are taking toward corporate fascism and a loud, vocal, vehement American response to decidedly un-American behavior by a sitting President and both Democrats and Republicans in Congress. I want us to be so fucking loud in our protest and our criticism and our outrage that they cannot ignore us anymore.

Now, Prosense, defend this crap. I dare you.



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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:43 PM

26. WMWS has accurately described the problem. The USA has, at least for "national security" affairs,

 

a one party system and that's the MIC and the controlists who are sweeping away our Constitutional protections.
Romney was bad, really bad, so a lot of us, most of us, voted for Obama the constitutional scholar who doesn't give a crap about the Constitution.
It's a sad sorry situation.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:24 PM

38. "How dare you. "

What I have written on these boards is clear. I want Americans to stand up together and let these craven politicians know that we will no longer tolerate being sold out and our rights taken away. I want this President publicly confronted by the media and by American citizens and forced to answer questions about supporting these policies that are antithetical to everything this country is supposed to stand for. I want an antidote to the corporate media that ignores every single step our politicians are taking toward corporate fascism and a loud, vocal, vehement American response to decidedly un-American behavior by a sitting President and both Democrats and Republicans in Congress. I want us to be so fucking loud in our protest and our criticism and our outrage that they cannot ignore us anymore.

Now, Prosense, defend this crap. I dare you.

Get on it. You have a lot of nerve acting like anyone who challenges your constant and meaningless rants are standing in the way of you getting what you want. Go and publicly confront the President. Who is stopping you?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:56 PM

32. What were the choices?

In 2008 it was Obama of Johnny Mac and Sarah. In 2012, it was Obama or RMoney and Ryan. Like many here, I believed Obama in the first campaign when he claimed he would undo the damage W had done. I didn't think he would continue. However, I guess he had no choice?

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Response to BobbyBoring (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:26 PM

39. Oh please.

"In 2008 it was Obama of Johnny Mac and Sarah. In 2012, it was Obama or RMoney and Ryan."

The vote occuring now is in Congress. Those members of Congress didn't appear out of thin air in 2008 or 2012.


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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:11 PM

36. When Bush was proposing these anti-Democratic policies, did you defend them

or oppose them? Remember the battle over the FISA Bill, I can't remember a single Democrat supporting Bush's 'let's spy on Americans' policies, so I'm asking since it's possible Democrats were supportive of his policies and I just didn't see their arguments.

I remember the fight against Bush's No Fly List, and how outraged we all were, justifiably so, when people like Ted Kennedy turned up on that list, and the leader of the Green Party, and James Moore, author of 'Bush's Brain' eg. We thought these policies were devastating to a democracy.

Have we come over now to Bush's pov but someone forgot to tell us? Democrats I mean?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:32 PM

41. Who the hell

"When Bush was proposing these anti-Democratic policies, did you defend them"

...is defending this? What's absurd is that in 2008 people lashed out at then Senator Obama. In 2008 and during Bush's Presidency, there was a lot more push back against Congress. People expected Congress to stand up to Bush.

Now, every friggin thing that happens in Congress goes through unchallenged, waiting for the President to veto it.

The other day people were upset about the warrantless wiretapping bill. Guess what: It passed by unanimous consent.

Pretending that Congress doesn't exist and that President Obama is singlehandedly passing these bills is absurd. The vote is going on in Congress and the focus is on the President.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:58 PM

43. Who the hell is pretending Congress doesn't exist? Ask them how many

calls they are all getting and for the most part, refusing to answer.

And refusing to listen to the people. So who should we look to when Congress fails to do ITS job? Is there someone other than the president with the power to fix what they did?

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:44 PM

27. + Nobel Peace Prize winner

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:12 PM

50. That, too!

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:50 AM

2. "the Obama legacy": the transformation of what was until recently a symbol of right-wing radicalism

- warrantless eavesdropping - into meekly accepted bipartisan consensus. But it's not just the policies that are so transformed but the mentality and rhetoric that accompanies them: anyone who stands in the way of the US Government's demands for unaccountable, secret power is helping the Terrorists.

John Queally, "staff writer", is a douchebag

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:51 AM

3. I watched CSPAN

I watched feinstein Object to Every Amendment that would have Protected Our Privacy/"us"

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:51 AM

4. voting now

my conservadem Senator voted against the amendments (to protect privacy) despite my calls.

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:52 AM

5. Virtually every national pol should be out on their ass and the next crops

weeded with extreme prejudice until they work for us.

I'm beyond sick and tired of these fuckers and their end arounding of our natural rights.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:53 AM

17. +100000

No justification, no excuse.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:14 PM

37. Yes and now is the time to start. And we have a coalition of organizations

already formed to choose and back candidates rather than putting their efforts as they have in the past, into candidates that do not represent us. So I think the tide is turning finally and the people have had enough.

It really is up to us to elect Democrats who stand up against this kind of anti-democratic legislation. If we do not, more and more 'baby' steps taking away rights will be made.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:44 PM

46. Right, the time wanes quickly.

The last election was to buy this opportunity for me.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:59 AM

6. It's something that repubs don't seem to understand

when you give (any) government more power, it's hard to take it away.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:17 AM

12. Back in 2007

 

In October 2007, Obama spokesman Bill Burton issued this unequivocal statement to the liberal blog TPM Election Central: "To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies."

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:00 AM

7. If NSA, TSA, or any other agency is listening, "Thank you for doing a great job."

 

Thank you, too, to all the DC politicians who supported and still support this.

"Keep up the good work," you bastards.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:05 AM

9. Thank Gawd It Passed..

Oh wait.. Too soon?

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:23 AM

13. Check your senators vote

toward Your 4th Amend rights-yesterday's amends were all defeated, with help from dems---todays votes will be up in about an hour.

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/a_three_sections_with_teasers/votes.htm

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Response to fredamae (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:33 PM

52. What? Democrats voted for this?

Imagine that!

(Thank you.)

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:50 AM

15. Gah, this makes my stomach roll. n/t

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:51 AM

16. Parts of USA PATRIOT Act so secret, even Senators can't tell us what's in them.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:06 AM

18. Kind of like the TPP.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:46 AM

20. That's the first thing the came to my mind as well, as evinced by Wyden's complaints. nt

PB

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:35 PM

24. The Trans-Pacific Partnership?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:29 PM

40. Yep.

 

We known the name. And a few leaked details. But that's it.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:53 PM

54. If it's anything like what the BFEE has done with China, I'm down with it.

Take the money and run. Right arm.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:52 PM

49. Thank you. nt

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:44 AM

19. Somewhere, Osama is laughing. n/t

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:17 PM

21. This, the wars and gitmo is were I am extremely disappointed with the President. There are GOP .....

who are strongly against the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act - which Hilliary Clinton so strongly supported and voted with Bush for.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:27 PM

22. We'll fix it later!

That's what we were told by a loud minority in 2008, when Sen. Obama reneged on his promise to filibuster immunity for telecomms.

Where's the Blue Link Brigade now? Fucking quislings.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:32 PM

23. Power corrupts.....

 

Our elected representatives assume a totally different demeanor in office. They become drunk with power.

There is no, absolutely no reason why the spying and surveillance of Americans should not be subject to rigorous, continuous oversight.

I do not trust the police state. Recall what happened in Germany in the 1930s. The same thing is happening here now.

Obama, in this regard, is no better or no worse than the worst mouth-frothing conservative. He loves his power and is not going to give it up.

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Response to Swede Atlanta (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:23 PM

51. Yup, and this goes far beyond Obama.

This is now a systemic, structural problem of corporate money, power, and influence in Washington. The two-party system is an illusion now, used and manipulated to give the illusion of choice. Policies don't change from administration to administration anymore, because corporatists choose our candidates in both parties.

Change is not coming from the inside.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:42 PM

25. The Domestic-Spying Industrial Complex

Apparently, it's far more profitable to violate (and codify that violation of) our civil liberties than it is to defend them.

Not to worry, this'll only be temporary. And the feds will only use this for terrorists as they always have.

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Response to FlyByNight (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:52 PM

28. Can you see the Bottom Yet,

of that slippery slope. Mayors banning sodas and restaurants. People saying that the 2nd amendment is not a right. The 5th amendment is just a suggestion(Kelo). So why would your 4th and 14th be any different?

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:53 PM

29. When Congress passes a law that is in direct conflict with the Constitution...

And since they did pass this bill (and Obama will sign it), we
are no longer the United States of America. America is no longer
a democracy.

And, we let them do this?

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:54 PM

30. America - land of the free

wait, we need to change that - America - land of the freedom for the government to spy on those that still believe America is the land of the free.

Quotes from February, 2008

Representative Silvestre Reyes (D-TX) Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
"We are a strong nation. We cannot allow ourselves to be scared into suspending the Constitution. If we do that, we might as well call the terrorists and tell them that they have won."
wwwc.house.gov/reyes/news_detail.asp?id=1370

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA)
"Franklin Roosevelt, as you know, something that every school child in America knows, said that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. And President Bush tells the American people that he has nothing to offer but fear, and I'm afraid that his fear mongering of this bill is not constructive."
www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/14/173433/995/690/456954

Majority Leader of the House Steny Hoyer (D-MD):
"President Bush is making the absolutely untenable claim that our national security will be jeopardized unless Congress immediately acts on the Senate bill, even though he and House Republicans opposed and defeated a 21-day extension of the current FISA law that his Administration wrote. If the President and Republicans really believe their own rhetoric, then their actions are grossly irresponsible.

"Democrats have made it abundantly clear that we are prepared to sit down with the White House and Republicans to work together. But we will not succumb to divisiveness and fear-mongering."
www.lvtsg.com/news/publish/fed_gov/article_23267.shtml

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV)
"For the President, this debate isn't about protecting America; it's about protecting the telecommunications industry and his own Administration.

"The President refused to extend this law because he is trying to use it for political gain and is afraid that legal scrutiny of his Administration's actions will uncover wrongdoing."
reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=293063&

Richard A. Clarke, Former Head of Counterterrorism at the National Security Council
"For this president, fear is an easier political tactic than compromise. With FISA, he is attempting to rattle Congress into hastily expanding his own executive powers at the expense of civil liberties and constitutional protections.

"In order to defeat the violent Islamist extremists who do not believe in human rights, we need not give up the civil liberties, constitutional rights and protections that generations of Americans fought to achieve. We do not need to create Big Brother. With the administration's attempts to erode FISA's legal standing as the exclusive means by which our government can conduct electronic surveillance of U.S. persons on U.S. soil, this is unfortunately the path the president is taking us down.

"So it is no surprise that in one of Bush's last acts of relevance, he once again played the fear card. While he has failed in spreading democracy, stemming global terrorism, and leaving the country better off than when he took power, he did achieve one thing: successfully perpetuating fear for political gain.

"Sadly, it may be one of the only achievements of his presidency."
www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/15099947.html

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:54 PM

31. Why, when Some Democrats vote with Republicans...

...is the entire thing laid at the feet of all Democrats, and no blame goes to Republicans?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_112_2.htm

Dec 27 Check the votes on the amendments to HR 5949. 13 Dems voted against Arndt's amendment. 4 and Bernie Sanders didn't vote at all. 3 Republicans voted for it, and 3 did not vote.

If every Dem and Sanders had joined in the yeas it would still be under 60 and would not pass.

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Response to spedtr90 (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:11 PM

45. I don't see

 

the entire thing being blamed on Democrats. I see people who expected nothing from the Repubs and something better from the Dems so they are disappointed. Perhaps their expectations were unrealistic and it's a systemic problem.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:58 PM

33. Obama pushed for this?

where can I find statements made by Obama or written documentation proving this? The article doesn't provide backup...

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:02 PM

44. Don't expect too much from "Counterpunch"

They have no editors, for one thing.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:02 PM

34. Prime example of corruption in Congress! We no longer have a representative Democracy!

This is why everyone who reads this needs to join me in demanding COMPLETE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM (CCFR)!!! If we spread the word and continue to gain like minded Americans, whether they be Democrats or Republicans, we can achieve this. Most of our problems could then be handled fairly. We have the illusion of representative democracy, lets make it a reality! You can make a difference just by posting the call for CCFR everywhere you go on the internets! You can also call and write your representatives (the ones we will need to force to do this)! Do not stop or give up, it can happen! People tell me all of the time that 1 person cannot make a difference! You make a difference every time you get someone else to join in. Lets do this, who is with me?

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Response to Catherina (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:44 PM

48. +1

Thank you for the link.

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:34 PM

42. Don't worry, this will be completely forgotten by the time Dems need to raise money again. n/t

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:18 PM

47. Bush era FISA vs pre-Bush era FISA


Pre-Bush since 1978: (on edit: Ted Kennedy was one of the authors)

- one year warrantless surveillance of non-citizens believed to be working with a foreign power against the United States
- three day warrantless surveillance of citizens ...
- surveillance of communications not allowed


Clinton era not enacted until Bush since 2001:

- "foreign power" may be a terrorist organization, not just a foreign government. This was added as part of the USPATRIOT act written in 1998 by a committee chaired by then VP Al Gore.


Bush era since 2007:

- surveillance of international communications allowed, including domestic communications with an international element, e.g. between a source located in the United States and a source located outside the United States


The only thing about FISA that is truly Bush is that last point.


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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:20 PM

53. Update

 


Senate Reauthorizes Warrantless Wiretapping
After Defeating Moderate Reforms, Senate Extends Unchecked Surveillance Powers for Five Years

WASHINGTON - December 28 - The Senate today reauthorized the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, an unconstitutional spying bill that violates the Fourth Amendment and gives vast, unchecked surveillance authority to the government. The FISA Amendments Act Reauthorization Act (H.R. 5949), passed on a 73-23 vote, authorizes the National Security Agency to conduct dragnet surveillance of Americans’ international emails and phone calls.

“It’s a tragic irony that FISA, once passed to protect Americans from warrantless government surveillance, has mutated into its polar opposite due to the FISA Amendments Act,” said Michelle Richardson, legislative counsel at the ACLU. “The Bush administration’s program of warrantless wiretapping, once considered a radical threat to the Fourth Amendment.

...

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2012/12/28-0

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Response to JReed (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:13 PM

55. Kick. Had enough yet, America?

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Response to JReed (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:24 PM

56. kr

 

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