This is not Syria .. This is Libya in Tripoli today ... We are one

[tabatha]

[pampango]

1. Nice. Life without a dictator seems to be better than some may have believed. n/t

[EFerrari]

2. Protest in Libya capital against former rebels

By Jay Deshmukh | AFP – Wed, Dec 7, 2011

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/NUSHKeLoWxpmutwdOhHJAA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MTQyMTtjcj0xO2N3PTIxODI7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTEyNDtxPTg1O3c9MTkw/

Hundreds of residents and policemen in Tripoli protested jointly on Wednesday against former rebels who toppled Moamer Kadhafi but are still camping out in the capital and parading their weapons.

Men, women and children waving Libya's national flag and shouting slogans against the militias gathered in Tripoli's landmark Martyrs Square in a rally organised by the city council and backed by the interim government.

"Safety comes when there are no weapons," teacher Salwa Lamir, dressed in a black hijab, told AFP as she held a banner reading: "No weapons in Tripoli."

"We're protesting against weapons and people using weapons. I want the militias who came from outside Tripoli to leave. They have to go back to their homes and continue with their studies," she said.

http://news.yahoo.com/protest-libya-capital-against-former-rebels-171229367.html

[tabatha]

4. That is truly wonderful.

They are free to protest. Something they could not do before. Just as there have been protesters in the US for centuries.

Btw, the two demonstrations took place in the same place on different days.

The first was to get the fighters to go home.

The second was in solidarity with Syria.

[joshcryer]

5. The US doesn't even respect protesters as much as Libya does now.

Who would've imagined that shit? :rofl:

[tabatha]

7. As for the protesters against the former fighters

the TNC supports the protesters.

[joshcryer]

9. Indeed, I posted an article to the misleading poster just now.

[EFerrari]

12. Yes, it's truly wonderful they can protest militia control of major cities

and not being safe in the streets.

lmao

[tabatha]

13. The TNC is giving them a deadline to get out.

Get it?

[joshcryer]

14. More importantly, the TNC is listening to the protesters. Far cry from OWS.

It is not "wonderful they can protest militia control of major cities." It is wonderful that they can freely protest against armed militias and that the government that they have is with them.

[EFerrari]

19. The TNC says a lot of things that never happen.

They are a lot like the puppet in Afghanistan who swings every which way depending on the last fax he got from State. The TNC itself knows it's not that simple.

Disarming Libya militias a 'complex issue': PM
AFPBy Jay Deshmukh | AFP – Thu, Dec 8, 2011

The issue of disarming former rebels who fought Moamer Kadhafi's forces is "more complex" than it appears, but these militias will be demilitarised soon, Prime Minister Abdel Rahim al-Kib said on Thursday.

"This (disarming of militias) is a much more complex issue than it may sound," Kib told a select group of foreign reporters after talks with visiting Australian Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd.

His statement comes two days after the capital's city council requested militias from outside Tripoli to leave by December 20.

Kib said his two-week-old interim government was holding talks with militias with a view to disarm them and has "solid and detailed programmes" to rehabilitate these tens of thousands of former rebels.

"We are working on demilitarising these groups. We are talking to them and I think we will achieve our goals and objectives any time soon," Kib said, adding a major militia had already agreed to leave the city out of its own accord.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/disarming-libya-militias-complex-issue-pm-182625047.html

[ellisonz]

16. How dramatic...

Obviously, it's pretty damn safe in the streets otherwise they would not be protesting. Just let Muammar go, he's dead and gone - you should cheer for Libyan democracy. x(

[EFerrari]

18. The police were protesting, too. I posted a link to the story.

But, I will cheer for Libyan democracy when some appears. And your insinuation that I am hanging on to Gaddafi is sort of silly and beside the point, sorry.

[tabatha]

20. What do you think of Kevin Rudd?

He was surprised to find a calm Tripoli and had heard only “occasional distant and sporadic gunfire”.

“Obviously, the challenge facing the government — and they’re acutely conscious of this — is when to remove the militia currently in Tripoli from the capital,” he said. “They are now fully seized of that, working out how it is best done. Obviously, the residents of Tripoli want that to be attended to as well.

“I found there to be an atmosphere of calm and cool determination to deal with this as the necessary next step prior to setting up the institutional machinery for the elections next year.”

Asked if he believed the National Transitional Council was in control, he said: “Based on everything that we have been able to assess, that is the case. We believe they are in a reasonable position to assert their control.”

http://feb17.info/news/from-out-of-libya-fm-kevin-rudd-a-believer/#more-39308

There are problems - YES - just like any transitional nation.

The reason for the problems is that the fighters who lost friends and family - in one contingent of 22 just 2 remain - want to make sure that their revolution is not hijacked. They are justified in holding that opinion/fear. I think Belhaj gave them concerns. That is justified. They have been through hell, with thousands killed by Gaddafi.

US soldiers also have gone through hell - not all of them come back normal. Many have PTSD. Many commit suicide; many commit murders. The huge difference is that the US is a well established democracy; the Libyan democracy is not yet established. There will be difficulties. There are difficulties. The TNC is not turning a blind eye to them. Give them some space, and applaud the positive things they are doing. It is ridiculous to think that they can go from a war to perfection. But you have to trumpet every hurdle as if it is the end of the world.

[ellisonz]

22. "But you have to trumpet every hurdle as if it is the end of the world."

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

24. Please show me where and how I did that. Thank you.

[ellisonz]

29. He was a wicked tyrant who got what he deserved, just let it go.

Here's an example from October 27 of you holding onto the delusion that this was about something other than Libyans demanding freedom and self-determination:

autorank posts an article entitled:
"Libya is not about who Gaddafi was. It's about what America under Obama has become." - by some propagandist with a non-functioning biography link (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/2378).

You concur: Thu Oct-27-11 10:44 AM

1. Excellent! Thanks for the link, autorank.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/http:/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2196006#2196053

"you have to trumpet every hurdle as if it is the end of the world."

I will not care to further engage than to say you've been consistently wrong about the chain of events in Libya. I don't think you've listened to the average Libyan one bit about what life was really like under Gaddafi, what happened that made them willing to die to get rid of them, and his awful tactics in suppressing a legitimate democratic revolution, and that's putting it nicely.

:-(

[EFerrari]

40. So, you can't because I haven't.

Thank you.

And you also can't show that I have been wrong consistently about Libya. As for listening to the "average Libyan", sorry, that's downright comical.

[EFerrari]

23. Kevin Rudd sounds like he'd have done well with Cheney and Rumsfeld.

"Returning to Rome yesterday, Mr Rudd told The Weekend Australian: “Given the economic fundamentals of the country, if we can help Libya get the politics right and help in supporting stable, democratic institutions, the future is promising."

(Iraq will pay for itself, you know.)


My posting news stories that don't fit with your tidy narrative isn't "trumpeting" anything. I certainly haven't claimed the world is ending in Libya. But one would think, so soon after we were sold a complete mis-evaluation in Iraq, that we'd refrain from making overly optimistic claims about a highly volatile situation that can "transition" in a lot of directions and not all of them particularly positive ones. That we'd think twice before we buy into stories about the new participation of Libyan women when the street is not safe for them or point to black soccer players trotted out for the cameras when illegally held black prisoners are rotting in militia controlled jails. But, that's just me.

[tabatha]

26. Comments

"Returning to Rome yesterday, Mr Rudd told The Weekend Australian: “Given the economic fundamentals of the country, if we can help Libya get the politics right and help in supporting stable, democratic institutions, the future is promising."
How does that sound like Cheney and Rumsfeld? Libya revolted because they wanted a stable, democratic institution where they have politicians that they can vote into power.

"black soccer players trotted out for the cameras" - sorry, those players have been members of the soccer team for a long time and it is an insult to say that they have been "trotted" out, when their contribution to Libya's soccer success has been substantial.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ittihad4ever/4117221363/in/photostream
19-11-2009, and look at the rest of the pictures in the set - those are the same players who were in the Arab games.
For a person who is supposed to be factual, you certainly make shit up. When you state "trotted" it out, make sure that you can 100% prove your assertion, otherwise you are no better than Fox News.

As for those being held in jails - it is not widespread and the TNC has said that steps are being taken to fix the problem. The TNC has acknowledged that there is a problem.

[EFerrari]

27. I posted a link in #21 that contradicts your claims about prisoners illegally held.

[joshcryer]

6. Libya militias given deadline to disarm and leave Tripoli

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-justice-20111209,0,2224895.story">Libya militias given deadline to disarm and leave Tripoli
Reporting from Tripoli, Libya— Weary of continuing gunfire in the streets of the capital, Libya's interim government has given notice to out-of-town militias to hand in their weapons and leave Tripoli in order to help steer the country toward civilian rule.

Militias have until Dec. 20 to leave, said Abdul-Rafik Bu Hajjar, head of the Tripoli municipal council, threatening to ban all traffic except vehicles from the Interior and Defense ministries if the militias fail to comply. His order has the backing of the new prime minister, Abdel-Rahim Keeb.

Rebel groups from across Libya stormed Tripoli in August, in a final, successful assault on longtime leader Moammar Kadafi. Having transformed government buildings and opulent homes of former Kadafi confidants into brigade "headquarters," the militias now seem reluctant to depart.

Armed groups from the cities of Misurata and Zintan are among the most powerful remaining in the Libyan capital. As night falls, members have engaged in internecine feuds, gunfire and bombings.

[tabatha]

8. Libyan delegation to enter the stadium Arab Games in Qatar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76H_FWlYfvc&feature=player_embedded

[joshcryer]

10. That is so beautiful, thanks.

Note the women leading the delegation.

[tabatha]

11. Note the black soccer players.

[EFerrari]

21. So have the thousands of illegally held prisoners been released

by the militias? I'd be happy to hear that.

Thursday 24 November 2011
Thousands of people are being illegally jailed and abused by Libya's ex-rebels, a UN report says. Channel 4 News speaks to a Ghanaian woman who has seen friends detained or die trying to flee Libya.

http://www.channel4.com/news/un-chief-disturbing-libyan-human-rights-abuses

[ellisonz]

25. Have the tens of thousands Gaddafi murdered...

...risen form the dead? :shrug:

I'd like to know in this situation who's law you think applies here? Gaddafi law or a yet be constituted Free Libyan code of law? :shrug:

It will take them time to figure out who exactly they are holding and who should face criminal charges, who should be allowed to stay in Libya and who should be deported.

From the last BBC report on the subject November 29:

TRIPOLI: Former Libyan rebels are still holding about 7,000 prisoners, the United Nations says.

The detainees are being held without access to legal process because the police and courts are not functioning-and some may have been tortured.

Many are sub-Saharan Africans suspected of being mercenaries hired by the Gaddafi regime. The UN said the new Libyan government had responded positively when pressed to deal with the issue.

----------

"While the (National Transitional Council) has taken some steps toward transferring responsibility for the detainees from brigades to proper state authorities, much remains to be done to regularise detention, prevent abuse and bring about the release of those whose detention should not be prolonged," the report says. Ban said: "I believe that the leaders of the new Libya are indeed committed to building a society based on the respect for human rights."

http://new.mmegi.bw/index.php?sid=1&aid=309&dir=2011/November/Wednesday30

[EFerrari]

28. I'd prefer to believe we can do better than freepers

and not call people who opposed the Iraq war "Saddam lovers". That may be overly ambitious on my part.

[ellisonz]

30. Can't answer the question, so bait and switch.

Distort, deceive and deny - the whole way far leftist against intervention in Libya is a house of cards.

:thumbsdown:

[joshcryer]

31. The poster has never, once, posted in support of Libyan self-determination.

Not once.

[ellisonz]

34. Nope. And neither have any of the others who maintain similar positions...

The Rats of Libya Salute the Germs of Syria! :applause:

[EFerrari]

41. Your question is ridiculous, bait in itself.

And now you will have to explain how I distort, lie or deny you calling me a Gaddafi supporters.

The blatantly ridiculous claims pile up and cast a shadow on your cred, buddy.

lol

[joshcryer]

3. To quote another wise DUer on Egypt: "The military will never give up power voluntarily."

The same is said of Syria and their totalitarian government there. Libya HURRA!

[joshcryer]

15. Kick. I see DU2 suppression is still quite active.

Thankfully that will be rid of with the upgrade to the superior and more free DU3, where cliques can't suppress information so easily.

[ellisonz]

17. Careful what you wish for...

Muammar sympathizers were pretty effective in distorting the facts and using the resulting tumult to their advantage. :(

[defendandprotect]

32. THIS while US is beating the hell out of young protesters here !! Cheers for Libyan courage!!

[ellisonz]

33. I thought Zucotti was Tahrir?

I applaud Arab leadership in overthrowing their despots, formerly U.S. backed, and non-US backed alike. I wish American youth would do the same to the Republican Party, one which foisted George W. Bush on America and the world. I give President Obama credit for his wise leadership in this regard, in making a firm statement for democracy in his Cairo speech in which he declared America's commitment to the principles that are behind these revolutions:

I've come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles -- principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.

I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. I know there's been a lot of publicity about this speech, but no single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have this afternoon all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly to each other the things we hold in our hearts and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, "Be conscious of God and speak always the truth." (Applause.) That is what I will try to do today -- to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart.

Now part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I'm a Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the azaan at the break of dawn and at the fall of dusk. As a young man, I worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in their Muslim faith.

As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam -- at places like Al-Azhar -- that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities -- (applause) -- it was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-cairo-university-6-04-09

When Ben Ali and Mubarak hesitated to leave, he gave them no reassurance, when Muammar Gaddafi sought to massacre his own people for seeking freedom and democracy, he heard their call and helped to build a coalition, according to international law to aid the Libyans in their fight for liberation.

People forget that speech ;-)

[defendandprotect]

35. Did Obama apologize to Iraqis for killing 1 million Muslims in an illegal and immoral war on them?

[ellisonz]

36. Did Obama launch that war?

Or was he just the one who ended it? :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

37. Did Pelosi/Dems keep it going after '06 ... and Obama since '08?

[ellisonz]

38. Were we supposed to just abandon Iraq to militants?

Dems were responsible for American actions; unlike our totally irresponsible opposites. I'd look to the individual Congresscritters who actually voted for the war for an apology.

[defendandprotect]

39. So you were in favor of keeping the war in Iraq going?

As Pelosi made clear on video morning after the '06 election --

"Dems were elected to end the war!"


80% and more of the American public want an end to the wars --

and that's always been true.

The nation was against the wars before they began -- and internationally

all were opposed.


Let's stop ignoring the will of the people -- !!