Police "authority" is nothing more than violence, and the threat of violence.

[ZombieHorde]

They have no more authority than any violent gang. Authority is a projection, similar to beauty, obnoxious, and cool.

[aletier_v]

1. Not true

Up to a point, they possess moral authority because they represent power used in the interests of the many.

The NYPD no longer possess that moral authority and I believe you can see it on their faces.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. At some point some will rebel against these obviously illegal orders.

It will be the beginning of something...interesting.

[ZombieHorde]

4. That would be interesting. nt

[ZombieHorde]

3. Morality is a projection. It comes from your reaction to stimuli. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

5. Until you need one to be "violent" on your behalf. nt

[ZombieHorde]

6. Two things:

1. That would not change the nature of police "authority."

2. What kind of situation would I need a police officer to be violent on my behalf?

[Supply Side Jesus]

8. say....your life is endangered and lethal force maybe applied to save it

perhaps????

[ZombieHorde]

10. How will I contact the police, and how will they save me in time?

What are picturing in your mind exactly?

I think I would be much more likely to be saved by a random, armed citizen than a police officer, if someone was threatening my life.

[Supply Side Jesus]

11. home invasion with weapons

you or loved one locked in room calling 911....

active shooter in public space, you in public space....

bank robbery, you hostage...bank surrounded....

car jacking, child left in car seat...car jacker takes car and child...

shall i continue?

[ZombieHorde]

14. A strong man could break down any door in my house in seconds.

If an active shooter is in a public space, then I will either be shot or have ran away before police arrive.

The bank scene is for movies.

I would die before I let someone take my child; the police would not help me.

[Supply Side Jesus]

24. ok, well I'm glad you got it all figuered out for yourself

ever heard of the north Hollywood bank robbery??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9SJi7G_QY0&feature=related

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff4XuPtAOUk


but, i'm sure this is just movies...

[ZombieHorde]

25. Those situations, partially created by the police, are so rare, one is much more likely to be

subject to police brutality than to be saved by a police officer.

For each person saved by the police, how many black people are falsely arrested? How many people are wrongfully shot?

We are obviously better off without them.

eta: the fuck with freedom of the press too...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2315299

[Supply Side Jesus]

30. yes...of course, the police created the bank robbery

lol...of course! we should let them walk away....


and the guy going to the ex's with a gun...yes, blame the police of course

[ZombieHorde]

31. What is the point of bank robbers taking hostages? nt

[Supply Side Jesus]

33. a insurance for escape

believe it or not, hostage taking DOES HAPPEN.

The one I was fortunate to go out on, the perp turn the gun on himself instead of the ex-wife. Which was weird, because this dude had planned his ex-wife's murder months in advance. We got there before he finished her, so he finished himself off. Which was fine by me.



the shit does happen, I've been in it.

but hey, as long as YOU never been in the thick of it....

[ZombieHorde]

35. Now you see why I said the situation was partially created by the police.

If police were not sent to a bank robbery, hostages would not need to be taken. The robbers could just take the money and run.

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. If you're trying to argue that a publicly funded instrument of law enforcement is inappropriate

you're sort of messed up in the head, and/or privileged to the degree that you can pontificate about the nature of cops
because your life is so cushy that you'll never need one.

Either way, you're covered. Take your meds, or eat a bonbon.

[ZombieHorde]

15. The police went on strike where I live, and nothing happened.

No mobs formed and attacked the populace.

[Modern_Matthew]

7. Class traitors that should be rounded up and jailed during the revolution. nt

[Supply Side Jesus]

9. ahh yes, The Directory lives on....

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. No, they have authority because they represent a legally constituted body...

charged with the enforcement of the laws and the protection of property and public order. If the police have no authority then neither does goverment and civil society is an illusion.

[ZombieHorde]

17. "If the police have no authority then neither does goverment and civil society is an illusion."

I partially agree. The authority of the government only exists in our minds, or our imagination to be more specific. The concept of authority does not exist outside of our imagination, and anything that only exists only in our imagination is strictly imaginary.

[Hosnon]

16. I disagree that police authority is derived from violence, but agree their efficacy is. nt.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

18. Wrong

Most people don't want to go to jail. Or have a record.

[ZombieHorde]

19. I don't see how that contradicts my claim. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

20. Of course you don't

We'd have to check your pulse or temperature if you did.

[ZombieHorde]

21. Oh, you're just trolling me. My bad for not seeing it sooner. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

22. Only partially

Cops can take you to jail. I'd want to avoid that. If you want to run from them so they'll have to use violence and you can cry about it after, that's your gig.

[ZombieHorde]

23. The threat of violence and actual violence.

If you want to run from them so they'll have to use violence and you can cry about it after, that's your gig.

The protests have proven they can be violent even when people obey them.

[apocalypsehow]

26. So....let's just apply this theory to some real life history.

Lincoln's authority was a "projection" when, exercising his police powers as President of the United States, he used violence and the threat of violence to force Southerners to stop "occupying" 'ole Dixieland in the name of the Confederate States of America, and give up some of their, *ahem*, "domestic institutions" at the same time. Those carrying out his orders to do so had no more authority than "any violent gang."

( "bu-but that's different...")

When President Grant granted* local Provost Marshals police powers in the South to enforce the recently passed laws disallowing huge groups of people to "occupy" Southern state capitols in defiance of said laws (recalcitrant ex-Confederates who'd formed their own "movement," of a sorts), his authority was a "projection," and those marshals had no more authority to do so than any violent gang.

("bu-but that's different...")

When President Eisenhower dispatched Federal troops to enforce the law at Little Rock High School in 1957, those troops acting under his authority were no more legitimate in carrying out their duties than "any violent gang."

("bu-but that's different....")

When, subsequently, Attorney General Bobby Kennedy ordered Federal marshals to forcefully carry out the mandates of the law in places like Oxford, Mississippi and St. Augustine, Florida, his authority was a "projection," not any better than that of any violent gang.

("bu-but that's different....")

When anti-choice fanatics are evicted from "occupying" the ground around and within 500 feet of a family planning clinic by police enforcing clinic access laws, those police have no more authority than any violent gang...

Gosh, I can think of all sorts of scenarios where, I wager, this OP would read somewhat differently, as in "hell yeah, go git 'em!"

But then, yes, I know, "bu-but that's different...."




*Say that three times real quick.

[ZombieHorde]

27. I don't think any those situations are different.

All of them are based on the abstract concept of authority. A concept that only exists within our imagination.

Even if I want people to be locked in cages, or killed, authority is still strictly imaginary. Our violent, revenge fantasies don't make things any less imaginary.

*Say that three times real quick.

Done.

[apocalypsehow]

28. I applaud your intellectual honesty and consistency.

Though I still (largely; not entirely) disagree with your OP, my respect for your position has just skyrocketed because you are willing to consistently stand by your thesis. That is to be applauded, and I do so your integrity in that regard now.

[ZombieHorde]

29. Thanks. nt

[drokhole]

32. "It must become clear to you that you yourself create all the authorities you accept."

- Alan Watts

You touch on an important fundamental truth, one that's unfortunately all too often unrealized. There is no outside or objective agent that issues or allows for power (personal or in the form of law) over another (the Church tries to take care of this with God, of course), it's all in our heads. It takes place in many forms, but they're all illusory and abstract, and require willing participants - whether knowing or unknowing - to function. Robert Anton Wilson touches on this brilliantly in his writing, particularly in Prometheus Rising. Jiddu Krishnamurti has had many stellar insights as well:

Self-awareness is arduous, and since most of us prefer an easy, illusory way, we bring into being the authority that gives shape and pattern to our life. This authority may be the collective, the State; or it may be the personal, the Master, the savior, the guru.

Authority of any kind is blinding, it breeds thoughtlessness; and as most of us find that to be thoughtful is to have pain, we give ourselves over to authority. Authority engenders power, and power always becomes centralized and therefore utterly corrupting; it corrupts not only the wielder of power, but also him who follows it.

- Jiddu Krishnamurti

[ZombieHorde]

36. Exactly. There is no authority. nt

[Rex]

34. It worked for J. Edgar Hoover.

Biggest gangster eva.