Veterans days always make me feel weird.

[Jackpine Radical]

Especially when someone says "Thank you for your service." You see, I was an infantryman in Vietnam, but I did not serve willingly. I was drafted, forced into a deadly form of involuntary servitude, and whatever illusions I might originally have had about the rightness of the war were quickly torn from me when I saw what we were doing to the innocent people, the sacred soils, the beautiful waters and jungles and mountains of that tormented land.

"No, don't thank me," I want to say. "Forgive me. Forgive me for participating in that awful event in your name. If you must thank me for something, then thank me for joining the movement to stop the war when I got home. Maybe thank me for the things I have tried to do for the castoffs of society--the mentally ill, the developmentally disabled, the emotionally damaged products of chaotic and abusive homes who have gone on to fill our jails and prisons. But don't thank me for going off to participate in the destruction of a foreign land whose residents never intended any harm to you or me."

[Drale]

1. You went and you served, you need no forgiveness

You could have run away and disappeared but your didn't. You deserve our thanks, its the leaders at the time who need our forgiveness, but they will not receive it.

[Jumping John]

3. How dare you? eom

[Tippy]

2. Thank you for your post....It is excelent...

[msedano]

4. thank you for your service...

because you went and filled a spot some other draftee would have to fill instead. you came home. that other kid, the one whose place you took? he would not have made it. besides, now that you're back your voice of protest is solidly legitimized and your protests against war are heeded.

ok, well, you went so some other guy didn't have to go. the latter is part of my thinking as they dragged me onto that bus.

mvs

[TBF]

5. Thank you for your OP -

I have been so angry this morning watching folks post their flowery missives thanking veterans "for their service". It is all part of the glorification of war that has become an integral part of our society. Most of these folks have no idea what it is like to serve, or to care for the veterans (with ailments both physical and mental) when they come home. If they make it home.

I do thank you for doing the best you could in a bad situation, and for having the guts to look at the issue honestly and not excuse war by wrapping it in a flag as so many others do. For that action - your speaking out - I see you as a hero.

Happy Veteran's Day.

[LiberalEsto]

6. Thank you for speaking truth

I too hated that war. I did whatever I could to protest and stop it. Including joining a group of Quakers and taking a canoe into a bay to try stopping a nuclear destroyer ship from sailing to Vietnam.

I am thankful you got home.

[azul]

7. The war that almost woke all people up.

And you were part of its conscience. So, thank you.

[MineralMan]

8. Veterans are all individuals and have different points of view on this.

I served in the USAF during the Vietnam war. My service was voluntary. I chose to join the USAF. I don't need anyone's thanks for doing that, since it was simply my decision. I don't wear my service on my sleeve, and don't require anyone to pay any attention to it, one way or another. However, for some people, their service is important to them, and they make it known. I'll thank such people for their service. If I don't know, one way or another, that's another thing altogether. But, for myself, I'm not seeking thanks. I did what I did, for reasons that were valid at the time. That requires no thanks or anything else from anyone.

On the rare occasion that someone thanks me for my service, I thank them for their support. That is all.

[CanSocDem]

9. Yes.

As I sit here this morning torn between honouring my parents commitment to our local veterans organization by attending the annual service, or to stay at home with similar thoughts about the tragedy of war. Your eloquent post articulates exactly the hypocrisy I have been unable to express in the past decades.

Thank you.

.

[patrice]

10. Thank you for saying this difficult thing.

I respect people first.

I honor the right of all FREE people to decide the course of their own behaviors FREELY, even when we disagree.

I respect the ability to stand freely for one's own behavioral choices without needing anyone else to prove to you that you did the right thing.

I cannot thank anyone for something I would not have had them do if I had been given that decision. A lot of what veterans, including myself, did/do since WWII doesn't have anything to do with my/our freedom and our over-indulgent material culture is not worthy of their or anyone else's blood.

[patrice]

11. self delete

[Shadowflash]

12. I understand

Though I was not drafted and served in the Air Force for 4 years willingly (and enjoyed every minute of it as an aircraft firefighter), I never served in a war zone, have never been shot at and have never faced the possibility that I may die.

I really don't consider myself a veteran because what I did was not a sacrifice. I enjoyed it and was never called on to go into battle.

Volunteer or not, you went into harm's way wearing our uniform and, for that, you have my utmost respect.

[Orsino]

13. Thank you for surviving.

Thank you for the many sacrifices being drafted entailed.

Forgive me for not keeping you from being drafted.

:patriot:

[HereSince1628]

14. I think many vets feel similarly...

It often feels somewhat awkward...

It may not be anymore fair than the draft, but in this respect society asks another difficult duty of us: to graciously accept what is in effect a tiny part of a national apology for having required our service in what is now regarded as the utter mistake that was the Vietnam war.

Perhaps the greatest way to honor veterans is to live as good a life as we can, and by doing that contributing to making the nation a place worthy of the sacrifices it has asked of its veterans. It sounds like you have done that. And I thank you.

[mimitabby]

37. exactly

my husband was another not so sure about what the hell they were doing Vietnam Vets.. I am proud of him for what he did, he used the Marine Corps as a way to get strong and healthier, to learn a good work ethic, a good team ethic too. I am proud of him for actually being a part of a peace demonstration in 1970 IN HIS UNIFORM.. I am proud of him too for manfully bearing his part of that collective guilt in fighting wars that should never have happened and for the empathy he has given every young man he's met since then for their part in the service of our country.

[pinboy3niner]

38. Reminds me of the epilogue from 'Platoon'...

Those of us who DID make it have an obligation to build again...to teach to others what we know...and to try, with what's left of OUR lives, to find the goodness, and meaning, to this life...

[trof]

15. I hear ya, Jack.

I joined the air guard in '63 primarily because I didn't want to be drafted. At the time, I didn't know it would keep me out of Viet Nam.
(But I'm damn glad it did.)
The U.S. had only about 16,000 'military advisors' there. No combat troops yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#During_John_F._Kennedy.27s_administration.2C_1961.E2.80.931963

When I found out I could get a 2nd Lt. commission with NO boot camp, AND go to pilot training, the decision was a no-brainer.

My 'service' was mainly having a great time helling around the skies of Alabama and the U. S. in an F-84 for 6-7 years and getting paid pretty well to do it.

Since the F-84 became obsolete during the Korean 'conflict' there was no chance of my unit being activated.

Am I a veteran?
Well, I have an honorable discharge, but I don't feel like one.
:shrug:

[Downwinder]

18. But no VA benefits.

[trof]

24. Nope. None. Not unless you count free meal at Applebee's today.

;-)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. For four long years I did absolutely nothing beneficial to human society.

The best thing I did was tell them to shove it when they asked me to extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam in 1965. I also added a few pithy words to my refusal which landed me on mess duty for 30 days.

[lunatica]

17. That war also turned me into a pacifist

It was well on it's way to teaching us a very valuable lesson as a country when along came Reagan with his waving flag and jingoism to whip up that uber-patriotism based on the US having the right to kick ass.

Some of us didn't fall for it though.

[Downwinder]

19. I appreciated it more when it was Armistice Day. Commemorating

peace not war.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. +1 Well said.

[Posteritatis]

23. Is that still observed in the US somehow?

In Canada Remembrance Day is pretty thoroughly focused on the armistice aspects, though of course in recent years Afghanistan's figured in due to our veterans from that. It usually stays really, really somber though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Since there is no peace in Korea....

That's when it switched. We should return to that, but memorial day was transformed into some of that b

[Brother Buzz]

28. It is sorta kept alive with The American Legion's poppy program

and the oldest of the old people still refer to it as Armistice Day. Used to be, everyone wore a paper poppy, but I rarely see them these days.

But by and large, somber though is reserved for Memorial Day

[Downwinder]

31. I guess I must qualify with "the oldest of the old people."

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Thank you...

For telling it like it was and still is. I wish I had my two years back to do with what I would have liked to do. Things like seeing my son for the first time when he was minutes old instead of almost a year old. I was not a happy willing camper. And it turns out that America has done most of the bad things our soldiers went to fight against in the past 10 years. War crimes and torture and murder, are not things that make me "Proud" to be an American. It saddens me to no end, to think that my tax dollars have funded these horrid things. I had hoped that Obama would have the guts to go after these war criminals among us, but I guess the right thing, was more than I should have ever expected out of old Uncle Sugar.

War Criminal Rumsfeld said, troops from Vietnam War conscription added "no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services."

No, I say it was the Wars in Vietnam and Iraq that added no value or advantage to our country's economic or moral way of life. Added nothing to the way America is perceived abroad. And blurred the line that once separated America from the Despots we had gone off to defeat in the past.

I salute my fellow Veterans for all the shit they had to put up with! I'm thankful that I never ran away when my number was drawn. I am sorry that my country has come to this.

[City Lights]

22. Very moving post.

Thank you. :hug:

[Scuba]

25. Thanks Jackpine. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Welcome home soldier

And what the nation owes you is what was promised.

(FYI I made that point as well, not well received. I have heard precisely this so many times I lost count a long time ago)

[w8liftinglady]

29. My partner has the same mixed emotions.

He was a canine MP for 20 years."did some f*cked-up stuff"
end of statement.
My dad was a three-war vet.
He'd drink on Veterans Day,Memorial Day...hell,any military-related holiday.
Quote from my kid "Hell-I was just blowing shit up".He drinks pretty heavily on these holidays,too.

I think people DO support a Veteran's service- they just have no clue what baggage veterans carry with that service.

[Demeter]

30. Thank you for being a good and honest citizen of the world

and trying to make this nation what it's supposed to be: an improvement over the historical, run-of-the-mill kinds of nations.

[sibelian]

33. ...

?

Is that what you truly believe?

[Gregorian]

32. Right fucking on!

I can truly thank you for this post.

I was preparing for CO, but we started pulling troops out just before.


By the way, I thought I'd add this- my 87 year old dad is the same way. We've never paid any attention to veterans day. In fact, just the opposite. Also, one other thing- my great uncles were some of the first CO's in ww1.

[Jackpine Radical]

34. After I got back to Madison, I used to write letters in support

of people applying for CO status. I would enclose a copy of my DD214 with a letter saying, in effect, "As my military record shows, I disagree with {Dodger}'s pacifist philosophy, but I have known him for a number of years, have had long discussions with him, and am absolutely convinced of his sincerity in his beliefs."

[UTUSN]

35. Veterans Day is a thanksgiving for PEACE, relief from the horrors of war

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2284983

[JohnnyLib2]

36. Thanks for expressing the strange mixture of feelings from those years.

Weird, ambivalent memories, but all too easy to bring back. On we go....

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. Me too. I was born on Veteran's Day and five days later my dad shipped out to Vietnam.

This day has always made me feel odd outside of the whole getting older stuff.

[uppityperson]

40. k&r. I celebrate Armistice Day instead. Peace.

[SammyWinstonJack]

41. You SHOULD say that and exactly that!

Thank you for your service to the castoffs of society. :thumbsup:

[kayakjohnny]

42. A great post for this day.

Very well thought out and articulated.

Thank you for this profound perspective.

And of course, for your service to the downtrodden.

[Bozvotros]

43. You are forgiven.

I was high enough in the lottery in 1971 to not have to make a choice to flee the country or go CO. But I grew up with all those same illusions of the USA and the flag and especially the military. Until I was 17, I believed fighting those dirty commies was the right thing to do. But as my 18th birthday approached I started to pay much closer attention to what was happening in SE Asia. Much as I wanted to believe in our country, it was hard to see decimating a third world country as a useful way to promote our values. Watching real news videos on the 6 o' clock news ended the romance I had with soldiering.

I work with Vets every day and I have learned a lot about Vietnam (and Iraq and Afghanistan) from them. I know that Vietnam Vets were in perpetual danger everywhere in South Vietnam. I learned that South Vietnam was a fiction we created to make it sound like South Korea. I learned that the average infantry man was in the line of fire for 240 days of his year tour, far more than the average WW2 vet. I know you saw (and perhaps did) things that you still can't forget. And I know I would have done similar or worse.

I commend your savvy and courage at surviving, at protecting the men you served with, your honor in trying to end the war and for the wonderful things you have done with your life. I apologize for the poor reception you received upon coming home, for the stayed-at home peers and older vets who criticized and judged you, for the piss poor help that was offered through the VA. You deserved and still deserve far better than this.

And I know your voice, your experience is needed now more than ever. Minus the rejection at home, the current wars in Central Asia are much the same messy, hopeless morass that Vietnam was. The PTB have worked hard to make criticism of their wars equivalent to criticism of the troops and believe they will always get their war when they want it.

So, you see, I still thank you for your service, then and now and into our future. We need more veterans like you.

[jaysunb]

44. My post at Daily Kos

Happy Veterans Day
my fellow brother and sister Vets.

I've heard much talk the last few days about whether or how to thank or show your appreciation for ones service.
I'm personally at a loss when some kind person thanks me for my service, because of my own conflicted feelings about it.
I was drafted in 1965. Going to the Army was the last thing on my agenda at that time. I was busy w/ the budding "black power movement." college, enjoying the tastes of the small gains that had been made by the civil rights movement, becoming more militant each day.
But, when the draft notice came (didn't have enough classes to keep my student deferment ) talk about a quandry.
My folks, good southern Baptist transplants from Mississippi surely weren't hearing any talk about draft dodging. Vietnam wasn't what it would become, but there was this new sense of black greivance that told me I shouldn't be doing the work of "THE MAN."

Off I went.

Coming home 26 months later a married man w/ a kid on the way, lots of my former thoughts and aspirations had been seriously been altered if not completely changed.
So, my service took on a whole new meaning.

Used my GI Bill to buy our first home. ($ 950.00 down @ 2% int.) Made use of the quota and prestige that service provided when job hunting. Used the GI Bill to pay for the rest of my education. Not a bad bunch of perks

But....

After all these years, I can still smell the strange scent of death. I still taste the salt of the tears and sweat of fear. The faces of Vietnamese people stays w/ me as I interact w/ them everyday, wondering do they know I've been to their homeland...would they still be so kind and caring.????
So

Different Vets have different feelings about their service. I appreciate the kind words, but, sometimes feel a little guilty knowing my own conflicts w/ the entire affair. Others are damaged for life, while many are proud of what they thought they were contributing to the "freedom" of this nation.

I weep for the dead and embrace the survivors. Peace and happiness to you all.

Poor government comes about when good citizens sit on their hands instead of standing on their feet.' -- Robert Baker

by jaysunb on Fri Nov 11, 2011 at 04:09:31 PM PST
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1034919/43916327

[SoDesuKa]

45. First Veterans Day

This is the first Veterans Day I've ever participated in. This year, instead of ignoring the day as I usually do, I decided to object to it as a kitsch holiday. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a sufficient understanding here of the meaning of kitsch, so my objections generally went for nought. Nobody connected the dots between Elvis rugs and the slop shit sentimentality that characterizes Veterans Day.



Kitsch

[Major Hogwash]

46. Good post, Jack.

I can understand your point of view.

[DirkGently]

47. We can thank vets without rationalizing everything we've asked of them, I hope.

I'd like it if we could thank everyone who serves by not surrendering to the dog-whistle calls to blindly support whatever war the leaders eager to use them devise, as though that as the same thing as supporting the people that have to fight them.