It is often foolish to think you would respond differently

[Johonny]

The only thing I really learn from my sociology class was this: Every class our teacher would bring up a a different difficult social subject. Every class the majority of the class would explain how they "would react in that situation". Then we would go over studies that showed how people typically react in that situation. Then the class would end and most student would deny "they would ever have done that." Yet the studies would seem to show otherwise. Unless trained to avoid typical behavior you simply are not any less immune than subjects in these stories.

Take the baby in traffic in China. So many DUers were shocked. But why? It was a perfectly normal (tragic) response.
The people in China clearly suffered from Bystander effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

While people believe they would NEVER do this. Study after study shows you probably could and would in a similar situation. This is why we have emergency response training. Because if not told to react regardless of what everyone else is doing... people tend to all do nothing.

In this Penn State case, people will often defer to authoritative figures even if the figure tells you to harm someone. People will keep sending electric shocks to a screaming victim if an authoritative figure tells them too.

You can pretend you aren't human and won't act like a normal human or you can support training and education. We have sexual harassment training at work places now exactly to try to prevent people from being trapped/brow beaten into accepting the word of authority. Why do people need to be told to do this. Because countless studies tell us people do not naturally act the way so many people "think" they would act. When place in the right perfectly horrible situation you may act exactly in a horrible and unethical way that you think you would never do. You can either accept that and create systems to prevent it, or pretend you would almost certainly in that exact situation behave different. This probably won't be popular, but I think this is why I support education, regulations, training etc... because thinking you "know" right and wrong aren't enough to prevent you from an action you later find unethical and/or immoral.

[Mojambo]

1. Good post. n/t

[JoePhilly]

2. JoePA was a GOD at PSU ... everyone one knew it ... HE knew it.

There was no one more influential in PSU than JoePA.

He should have acted like the GOD he was, he did not.

He had no real superiors.

[Ohio Joe]

3. Complete bullshit

One might delay for a short time because they were told to but to try and use that as an excuse for the Penn State shit is pretty fucked up.

[pipi_k]

15. Who said it was...

an "excuse"?

It's not an excuse.

It is a reason. There are always reasons for people's actions.

Here's a person at this point in time, dealing with this or that situation, and these or those circumstances, and he will act the way he thinks is best based on those things.

It would be real nice if we all had the power to know beforehand what would happen as a result of the things we say or do, but we don't.

[Ohio Joe]

18. When a "reason" is complete bullshit, it is an excuse

You really buying that anyone would go all those years being silent because an "authority figure" told them to? Really?

[pipi_k]

28. I'm not "buying" anything of the sort...

who knows what other reasons there might have been. We don't know, and nobody will likely know until a trial.

But reasons are not "bullshit".

For example...Someone rams you from behind while you're stopped at a red light.

Reason: The person was texting on his cellphone.

Is that an excuse? No.


There is a big difference between a reason and an excuse.

[Ohio Joe]

34. Have you read the OP?

It very specificly gives the excuse that this crime was covered up because an authority figure said so. That is bullshit.

[Johonny]

29. but it is totally known "excuse"

when a system is built (say like the catholic church or Penn State) with such authority figures that they are unquestioned. It is so often the case people get caught in a trap of doing the wrong thing. Even if viewing and outside organization they clearly see it is wrong. To deny such thing could ever happen to you and your organization doesn't need training, education and a clear system to allow people to react is to set yourself up to be another Penn State. Look at the people involved at Penn State. You never want to be in that situation. Penn State was a system like so many that was just waiting for something like this to happen. Knowing why people do things we think we never do can be viewed as an excuse (but we never forgive these people so I don't see it helping). But view it more as a reality check. The next time my company tells me to do sexual harassment training I'm going to be fucking sure not to grumble and say I don't need this. Penn State is a reminder without constant training, we can so easily can suck up into a corrupt system that ruins our lives. You need not be a criminal to have a crime destroy your life.

[Ohio Joe]

33. Bullshit

What happened with the catholic church had zero to do with covering a crime because an authority figure said so, people covered it up because they agreed that it was better for the church. The Penn State crime is no different. Making excuses for the people that covered it up is fucked up.

[Zoeisright]

35. I agree.

People are always willing to deny explanations as an excuse. But in this case, this explanation is a complete "excuse". I do not think that anyone who is a moral human being would have let that scene in the shower go by without intervening. NO ONE.

I am fucking sick of the excuses being thrown around for these reprehensible men. I hope they all end up in jail.

[JohnnyLib2]

37. And yet it keeps on happening, all over the world.

From one point of view, "reasons" are NOT always or only excuses; they are a search for answers.

[Ohio Joe]

38. Bullshit

Tell about the case where someone covered up a heinous crime for a decade because an authority figure told them to. Please tell me all about these cases.

[JohnnyLib2]

39. Go back to the OP --

it's about social pressures, etc.

We don't know who told who what to say or not at Penn.

We* do know: parents who don't believe child victims
families who couldn't believe the priest/pastor would molest
bishops/senior ministers who covered up
families who are afraid to confront a doctor, coach, teacher, etc.
attorneys who defend perps by tearing down victims


*I'll qualify that by saying I work in the mental health field and know too damn much.

[Ohio Joe]

41. "We don't know who told who what to say or not at Penn."

So... The original OP is bullshit, you just pulled an excuse to let people who kept this hidden for a decade off the hook out of thin air?

The case in China? Bullshit, and changing to social pressure from an authority figure said so makes it so.

"We* do know: parents who don't believe child victims
families who couldn't believe the priest/pastor would molest
bishops/senior ministers who covered up
families who are afraid to confront a doctor, coach, teacher, etc.
attorneys who defend perps by tearing down victims"

None of this has anything to do with an authority figure said so... Not even by a long stretch.

Changing the excuse to why a victim would keep quiet does not validate your OP. Making an excuse for this crime is still fucked up.

[JohnnyLib2]

44. Good grief.

--it isn't my OP, just similar names

Not sure why you discount all of above as authority figures for a child??

[Ohio Joe]

45. My bad, I did confuse the names

"Not sure why you discount all of above as authority figures for a child??"

The child is the victim, the OP is making an excuse for the perps. I discount them as authority figures for perps.

[ecstatic]

4. Even if a person who witnessed a child getting raped was too stunned or cowardly

to act in that moment, wouldn't the person make up for it soon after by at least calling the police?

[laundry_queen]

6. You would think BUT

if that person is the type of person who is a follower and often defers to authority, they could be very easily convinced into not believing their lying eyes. If you've ever been in an abusive relationship where the other person 'gaslights' (ie denies things that you KNOW happened) you know that you will doubt your own sanity and you will never be sure of yourself. Perhaps this was the dynamic with this case. Doesn't make it right, but it illustrates deeper issues in our society.

[Johonny]

31. there is a well known sociological effect

where since people reported it, there becomes a group think where since everyone has "done the least right thing" no one has total guilt. It's why you should train employees to not stop at the minimum and always report to the police. I think training wise at my work at least these type of behavior are starting to really be focused on. It is why you train people at school not just to keep what children tell you between you and the student but to bring it to the principal, the councilor, the police... follow the chain and if the people directly involved don't still do it. You have to work and train and educate or as countless of these stories seem to show, you can easily fall into the trap.

[laundry_queen]

5. Yes, you never know

how you will react in any given situation. I thought that if I ever found out my husband was cheating, I'd lose my temper, take the kids, pack up and leave, then get a good lawyer and clean him out. I didn't anticipate that I would be begging him to stay and work it out, and that I would still love him and WANT to be with him after something like that. Eventually I *DID* pack up and leave but it took a few months. My reaction was not at ALL like I thought it would be.

Having looked at the Milgram experiments, and knowing that I was emotionally abused as a child to accept authority unquestioningly, I have no doubt that I'd follow someone in power to do awful things. I'm always to scared to stand up to anyone. (Standing up to my parents meant I got hit or at least severely punished). Apparently 65% of the population is a lot like me (and not to bring another thread into this, this is another reason why I vehemently disagree with authoritarian parenting and spanking). It sucks knowing I would probably be a 'good German'. At least, however, I'm not in denial. I always keep this in mind when I hear people say things like, "I'd NEVER do that if XYZ happened! what is wrong with that person!" I let them know they couldn't possibly know how they would react in a similar situation. As you said, plenty of studies out there but I guess there are even more people in denial.

[Ohio Joe]

10. "it took a few months"

See... This I can understand. All the people who knew? All the years that went by? No, sorry but the OP is bullshit.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

17. I was told by a classmate --

in 10th grade that she was having sex with her foster father. She was new to the school, this conversation was just a few weeks into knowing her, and I had no idea what to do with that information. I was not the only one told about this, and we talked amongst ourselves wondering of we should tell someone about it. This was a Catholic school, btw. At the end of it, none of us went to the school to say anything about it.

You alway like to think you'd do the right thing, but sometimes you disappoint yourself.

[JohnnyLib2]

7. Excellent points, and shouting them down doesn't erase them.

Rec.

[seabeyond]

8. yes, i, too, took sociology. being made aware of that, regardless of how fearful i am, or tired

i am, i try to always speak up and out.

when a person is caught screwing around on a mate and it becomes a big deal on du, there are always people saying, you could be in that position too. where you cheat on mate. you dont know.

i do know.

i think it is a cop out on personal responsibility and societal responsibility to put all of us in one persons decision to not walk life in integrity. call out a child rapist. or at the least, protect future children from the rapist.

[liberal N proud]

9. If you are in a position of authority as Paterno was and do nothing

you are accessory to the crime.

True leaders handle the tough choices and do the right thing.


As a manager, if I see someone molest another (child or opposite sex), I'am obligated as a representative of my organization to report it and follow up.

[pipi_k]

25. He did report it.

He just didn't report it to the people honorable enough to take it to the police.

[liberal N proud]

42. He didn't follow up

The whole organization is guilty of letting it go on.

[seabeyond]

48. he reported it and turned his back on the kids letting the man be around them unsupervised.

what kind of adult does that.

[Poll_Blind]

11. The only thing I really see here is the justifications YOU would use not to stop it. nt

PB

[Pithlet]

12. The bystander effect is real

BUt I'm not sure it explains what happened in the Penn State scandal, at least not with everyone involved. I seems to me it was a deliberate, elaborate coverup that happened over many years.

[pipi_k]

13. Exactly...it's always easy

for people to sit there after the fact and judge someone else's actions, even though they were not there at the time and don't know what the surrounding facts and circumstances were.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Everyone's a hero in their own mind

Yes, the statistics on social behavior always apply to the other guy. That's where sociology meets psychology.

[pipi_k]

16. And they always seem to have the perfect response

to every single life situation.


I honestly do not know how I would react in any particular situation.

[JuniperLea]

19. Some of us do know very well how we'd react...

Because we have in the past.

There's not a chance in hell I'd go along with this kind of bullshit. It takes a really sick, sick fuck to do this shit, or to ignore it. Bottom line... and there is no excuse.

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Thank you. I'm pretty sure most of us here, if we walked in on a grown man

with his penis in a child, would react far differently and in the best interests of the child.

[JuniperLea]

30. Maybe it's because I'm a mother...

But I have put myself between a few PARENTS and their children... and one child was removed from the home because I was a momma pit bull about it. He was later adopted by my next door neighbor... happy ending.

There's not a chance in hell I would REST until the sicko was behind bars... I know, without question, that I would have inflicted some sort of bodily pain on the sicko, and yanked the kid out of the situation, and headed straight for a police station.

[JohnnyLib2]

26. You've walked in on something like this? I haven't, thankfully.

I have found myself reacting differently when other vehicles have hit mine, anything from temporary shock to calm & cool.
After about 4 times, I was again surprised this year at my reaction.

[patrice]

20. Stanley Milgram. Philip Zimbardo et al. Showed significant probabilities that we'd conform. nt

[former9thward]

21. Posters on the internet always play the hero as they type on their keyboards.

They have the advantage of total hindsight and also they are not really confronting anyone. Just typing away. So easy to say what they would do. And of course kick someone's ass - that one is always in there.

[Pithlet]

23. But really. I also think it shows a bit of naivete to think

that people should just think "Yeah. I could see myself participating in the cover up of a child sex rapist scandal. Sure!" So easy! I mean, come on. If we're all supposed to understand human nature, I think there could be a little give and take. It's not THAT out there for someone to think they wouldn't participate in such a cover up.

[snagglepuss]

24. The bystander effect is not what was at play in China according to a Chinese writer.

The Guardian CIF posted a piece by a Chinese writer (which I posted here last month)who wrote that in Chinese culture empathy for people outside one's family has never been a value, she quoted China's first sociologist who wrote early in the last century that the lack of empathy was a serious social failing.

[Johonny]

32. I know when I was last in China

the local science museum has a whole floor dedicated to emergency disaster response. So I think they are at least attempting to educate their society and change it. It was interesting as I've never seen such a huge amount of space dedicated to it. This explains why a city would dedicate 1/4 of their museum to such an interactive display. Thanks for the post.

[distantearlywarning]

27. This social psychologist thanks you for your highly accurate OP.

:fistbump:

[Ernesto]

36. From a geezer ......

Keep up the GOOD work!

[LWolf]

40. Maybe.

I'm a teacher. I've served in loco parentis for 27 years. I'm a mother of two sons and a grandmother of a young boy.

I don't walk out of that locker room and leave a young boy being raped. I guarantee it.

If a molestation is reported to me, I don't report it to my superior and not follow up. I also report it directly to law enforcement.


I'm a mandatory reporter.

[tnlefty]

43. "I don't walk out of that locker room and leave a young boy

being raped". That makes me ill and it just reinforces the cover up aspect to me. Disgusting. 28 years old and all that he could think of to do was call his Dad?

I've been told about Momma's boys before, and if my oldest (21) walked in on something like that and called me, I'd tell him to hang up the goddamned phone and dial 911 as would his father who is outraged and sickened by the inaction of so many. My three sons find this whole child raping/abusing debacle totally insane. Tired of the excuses here, as I'm sure is evident.

[LWolf]

49. Yes.

I imagine my sons, or my students, as that 10 yo boy. The idea that a man would witness his violation and walk out, allowing it to continue?

[Tsiyu]

47. The OP and many other responses suggest

That in actuality NONE of us would act, based on scientific study; that we are all slack-jawed rubes who slink away from confrontation, that we must face reality and admit WE are complicit in these crimes as well.

Very moldy, laughable arguments but they make some feel better about not feeling so bad.

I'm known as someone who confronts wrongdoing. I'm not pretty about it. Been called a "crusader" and less savory names. Had my little bitty ass kicked all through life for standing up to bullies.

I, like you, do know what I would do upon seeing such a hideous thing. My reaction would have been pretty visceral and immediate.

Anyone else can make all the rationalizations they wish to make.

Their apathy and cowardice are THEIR problems - and society's problems :cry: - as they try to tell me I am the problem!!!!!!!


Thanks for posting ...

[Capitalocracy]

46. I agree with your premise that you don't know what you would do in that situation

But I do know afterward, I would hate myself every day for the rest of my life if I saw that happen and didn't do anything.