Self-deleted by member

[JCMach1]

This message was self-deleted and locked by JCMach1.

[TheWraith]

1. Fuck it. They'll make their own decisions.

I for one have a little more faith in the locals.

[boppers]

27. That's a just world error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Don't worry, we all make it.

[GreenStormCloud]

2. I predicted that back in the spring and was soundly flamed.

Looks like you are getting flamed too. So many here just don't want to believe that Islamic funadmentalism is a very strong and growing force in Arab countries.

[tabatha]

7. It is not Islamic fundamentalism.

This is what a real, live Libyan said to me:

"I wouldnt worry about the sharia thing, certain parts will/could be used as a 'basis/foundation' ...as to be honest, some parts, actually alot of sharia can be said to be outdated, and as all law, in every society and persuation/religion, jurisprudence/law is flexible, and can be upgraded, modernized and enhanced.

Just like in some nations, ie christain, the foundations for law are founded on the ten commandments; that sort of thing.

The vast majority of Libyans can be said to be modern, rather liberal about their faith; especially the newer generations. I really believe that Libyans will not tolerate fundementalism, islamic or not, and will tend to go the middle of the road; not to much to the left or right, but alond the center.

I think that Libyans also are acutley aware that this revolution is primarily for the young, new and future generations."

I am really tired of people in the West thinking that they are better and that they know better - when they have botched so much.

[GreenStormCloud]

18. What language was the conversation in?

If English then you were not speaking to a typical Lybian. If it was in Arabic then he may have been one.

[tabatha]

21. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I know he is Libyan, and I know that the others are Libyan, too.

In fact, some on the AJE board will be visiting him in Libya, including two of the more notable posters.

Have you not watched the reports by Western reporters talking to ordinary Libyans - many speak English.

In fact, here is one of the most famous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaPqWRe1WrE&feature=fvsr

[BlueMTexpat]

38. I know no "Lybians,"

but I know quite a few Libyans who are certainly more typical than any you likely know, whatever language they are speaking.

If you know any at all. ??

Islam, in and of itself, actually has a better historical track record over the centuries than does Christianity for inclusion and peaceful co-existence with other religions. As with any religion, it is the associated zealotry and fanaticism of certain individuals and their followers that taint the religion beyond all recognition.

But the thinly veiled bigotry in some of these posts is despicable and unworthy of DU, IMO.

While I am a practitioner of no religion (although I have had no small exposure to and education in different religions), I respect all those who are religious and who actually follow the precepts of loving their neighbor and treating that neighbor as they themselves would wish to be treated. Those who do harm in the name of religion - any religion - are despicable hypocrites.

[JCMach1]

10. These Islamist groups are a kind of counter-revolution...

wanting to shift the power to their control.

They opposed the dictators just to begin taking power themselves.

[tabatha]

14. yeah, what are you smoking?

[mr_liberal]

31. Happened to me too.

I mentioned that I agreed with Bill Maher about this and people here got my post deleted.

[FarCenter]

3. If Arab governments are democratic they will reflect the views of their electorates

Therefore, they will be hostile towards Israel and neutral to hostile towards the US.

Hostility by Muslim nations decreases as they are more distant to Israel. Morrocco will probably wind up pretty neutral, and Indonesia probably doesn't care much at all.

[tabatha]

9. You are wrong.

Libya is very pro-West.

[Selatius]

30. Tripoli, yeah, but Benghazi was always more socially conservative. nt

[tabatha]

33. Benghazi is so pro-West now.

Mo Nabbous is their hero.

[Selatius]

35. Yeah, they're thankful for NATO intervention, but it remains to be seen as far as women's rights go.

If their new constitution doesn't really give credence to women's equality and women's suffrage, then all women got out of the whole ordeal is the change of a dictatorship in place of a different kind of oppression.

[Amonester]

37. Women there have a traditional culture that is very different than...

ours. (A big majority of them anyway.)

That's a fact.

It is not easy to accept for western women, but that majority there, it's what they WANT...

[Amonester]

4. Northern African countries' interpretations of sharia law are moderate.

Contrary to Saudi Arabia's and the Emirates.

Who 'fears' Saudi Arabia or the Emirates?

Rethugs?

[JCMach1]

6. You need to take a look at the platform of the Salafists then...

What you said is exactly opposite... Sharia is very moderate in the emirates...

The groups seeking power in North Africa are not moderates... that's the point.

[tabatha]

12. Oh, Jeeze, why don't you just let them decide their own fates.

You will be surprised by Libya - they are moderates. On the AJE blog we talk to some of them daily.

And as long as they do not impact us, what the fuck does it matter.

We have done far more damage to them than they have ever done to us.

Leave them alone.

[bluestateguy]

5. The neocons said they wanted democracy in the Middle East

Well, careful what you wish for.

Democracy means that sometime the people want the moonbats in power.

[Amonester]

8. The PEOPLES (mostly under 30...) of these countries WANT

their OWN versions of democracy.

Who's to deny them to them? Democrats?

[JCMach1]

11. Counterrevolution is not Democracy...

[tabatha]

13. please try talking to some libyans

go visit them. go find the truth.

[JCMach1]

25. and many of the moderates I talk to are afraid the revolutions are being

slowly, but surely hijacked...

Libya is over the moon right now, but the difficult job of governing comes next.

[Hardrada]

15. It's their country. Not much much we can bloody do about it, eh lad?

[Amonester]

16. Sometimes, it looks like some here want us to INVADE them....

in order to 'get rid of the SCARY Islamists' and impose a western 'civilization' that will 'show' them...

I kid you not. :(

[JCMach1]

39. You are right... however that is not my intention at all... just wanted to point

out that counterrevolution is in the air in these countries and it is centered within the various Islamist movements.

Progressives will most likely be squeezed out as they have been in Tunisia.

I don't think in the long-run that is good for human rights and democracy at this stage.

[tabatha]

17. The UAE supported the revolution in Libya.

Do you not?

[JCMach1]

23. Yes they did, but also sent troops to the repression in Bahrain

Schizo anyone?

I just work here.. I am a U.S. citizen.

[tabatha]

26. OK - I did not know that (about Bahrain).

I did not know from what perspective you were coming from.

For a moment I thought you were a UAE citizen trying to provoke a reaction.

[scentopine]

19. Of course - it is very simple

10s of millions of average people have been exploited and oppressed in the name of keeping oil flowing to western military powers.

So instead of the US fostering an example of solid representative government, the US propped up "strong men" who used their immunity to rape their citizens and accumulate huge fortunes of US taxpayer subsidies.

People are pissed. So they have two choices with little to lose.

1. Do they want a US sanctioned oligarchy where they are brutalized? This is a known suck factor.

2. Or do they want to take chances on something that promises to fight against the US oligarchy? Sounds better than #1.

Option 2 will also suck, but like democrats and republicans, people are resigned to hoping that one will suck less than the other.

The USA's main objective in mid-east is to liberate our "freedom oil".

We slaughtered 250,000 to 1,000,000 civilians in our 10 years war to keep the region's oil flowing our way.

So what the fuck did the centrists and other right wingers in USA think was going to happen? They'd throw flowers at feet of US style oligarchy?

[clyrc]

20. JCMach1 and I both have lived in the United Arab Emirates

for over 8 years. We live on a university where he teaches. Every now and again I try to explain something about living in the Middle East, but the truth is complicated. There are some amazing things about this part of the world, as well as some incredibly frustrating things. The truth is that the Arab world has plenty of moderates, but there are other forces that are undeniably vying for power. I have Muslim friends who are really worried about conservative religious people trying to put themselves in power. I personally have hope that the people participating in the revolutions will find a way to work out democracies that benefit most people. But that outcome is not guaranteed.

[Amonester]

22. I and many here have the same hopes.

That said, what in this world is ever "guaranteed" I ask you?

[clyrc]

28. Nothing is ever guaranteed

And I would never argue that the revolutions never should have happened because the outcome is uncertain. I was fascinated and delighted when I watched what was going on in Egypt at the beginning of this year. But so many things have happened since then that have made me fearful. And of course it means something personal to me since I live in Arab world. I want conditions to improve for the common men and especially women, but it's going to take a daunting struggle.

[Amonester]

36. It's their struggle. They will have to deal with it.

Besides, it sure looks to me we've got plenty struggles on our own plates these days. What about letting them do what they will, and see where that will get them? And, yes, we've got our 'hands' full enough. (Including saving the capacity of the planet to sustain life itself...)

[tabatha]

24. I can completely understand.

Things are complicated in all countries; there are fundamentalists in all countries.

I followed the change of govt in South Africa.

The apartheid regime was basically run by Christian fundamentalists - businesses were closed on Sundays - it was "kerk" day.

They did not change over easily - there were atrocities - there were revenge murders - there was the ridiculous time when a bunch of Afrikaners (after 1994) wanted to march all of the Blacks out of the country to Zimbabwe.

It was not easy.

And while we must not tolerate atrocities, when they do happen they must be blamed ONLY on the people who perpetrated them.

There was another post that because of the bad killing of Gaddafi - "do you want these people" to tun Libya. Of course not. The TNC leaders would never have done anything like that. It is that kind of simplistic, incorrect logic that makes we wonder which board I am on, sometimes.

There are bad people in every country in the world, including the US, but that does not make the concept of democracy and freedom invalid. In fact, in a democracy, it is easier to get justice and accountability for bad things, something that never happened under Gaddafi.

And the Libyans have given their blood for "freedom", and they will not tolerate fundamentalists.

[clyrc]

32. Of course the concepts of democracy and freedom aren't invalid

And I hope you are right about the people in Libya.

[Fire Walk With Me]

29. The Islamic are working out their problems and are attempting to find what works best, as are we.

They have their own version(s) of the tea party and will have to decide what they really want, and then how that positions them in dynamic with the rest of the world.

[DCBob]

34. It does appear that the religious conservatives are making a comeback in many parts of the world.

even here in the US. Perhaps its in response to the shift by many, especially the youth, towards things more moderate and liberal. I think they fear the future that their religion may become obsolete so they stike back in hopes to change the trends. I doubt it will work but it could be a difficult messy dangerous transition for some nations... and unfortunately it may be a necessary process to get to the better end result.