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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:09 AM
Original message
OMG! ANOTHER Catfood Commission!
It's obvious that despite everything he says, Obama really wants to gut Social Security and Medicare. That's why he created the Simpson-Bowles Catfood Commission. Of course, because of the rules it never could reach a consensus or a plan that could be brought to Congress. But that didn't stop members of the commission from making recommendations of their own. When Simpson and Bowles revealed their preferred plan and it not only did NOT privatize or gut SS or Medicare, but instead sought to strengthen them - and in some cases INCREASED benefits - well, obviously the anti-SS/Medicare Obama administration did not push them.

So, in his on-going efforts to find a commission that would gut SS/Medicare, he has come out in support of a deficit plan that includes a NEW catfood commission.

Never mind that he SAYS that it won't touch SS/Medicare beneficiaries. Never mind that he says that he will veto any extension of the Bush tax cuts if there aren't revenue increases in the plan. We know that Obama ALWAYS goes back on what he says. For instance:

- He said he didn't believe in a Health Care mandate., and then he changed his mind.
- He said he believed in DOMA, and now he says that he thinks it's unConstitutional.
- He said he would repeal DADT. Oh, yeah, he did that.
- He said he would end torture and close Gitmo, and even though he issued Executive Orders and managed to transfer most of the Gitmo detainees, nimbys in Congress blocked him and eventually de-funded his efforts
(what a wimp that he didn't buck Congress! Bush never listened to Congress! How dare he follow the Constitution?)
- He said he supported a Public Option. But we know that he gave it away. Even though he publicly supported it right up until the point where it was being blocked by Lieberman and others. Obviously, they were following secret orders that no one has any evidence of.

Obviously, Obama can't be trusted. We must trust the bloggers who keep warning us that Obama wants to destroy SS and Medicare.

Never mind that if someone like me wanted to sow mistrust and discord that I would create fictional attacks against the 2 most popular programs, SS and Medicare. Never mind that all such attacks against those 2 programs have proven to have been to be completely wrong. Never mind the facts or history. Never mind that there are Pumas and Green Party voters and Republican trolls that would love to sow such discord. They aren't here on DU! And innocent DUers wouldn't listen to them, anyway. Much less parrot them.

We know that Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare so that private investment and insurance can reap the benefits. But now, OMG! Obama wants to do it too - despite everything he says!

I am reminded of an old, wise adage -

"when in worry or in doubt,
run in circles, scream and shout!"


Oh, and in case anyone is still unsure - :sarcasm:

I'm also curious how many people only read the boldfaced and italicized sections. Aren't I a stinker?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. The funding in the out years isn't there. Someone has to do something for goodness sakes.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, indeed we do. Although people will scream bloody murder if you say that.
Apparently, Social Security sprang perfectly formed from the head of Zeus, and there is no need for it to be changed even in the slightest. If you say otherwise, you're a Republican troll trying to murder grandma. :eyes:

Relatively simple for Social Security: lifting the payroll tax cap, or better yet changing it to be a progressive tax (currently it's a very REgressive tax).

Medicare is harder, since the underlying costs of medical care keep going up. And not just because of profit motive, but because we have better medical care, as well as more potential tests, new drugs, and people living longer.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Interesting side-note: Simpson-Bowles recommended raising
the payroll cap.

But the Meow Mix crowd either ignore that or don't know it since they never bothered to actually read the report.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. And Medicare for all, and slashing the millitary, both of which
Obama rejected right away. But he's not rejected their call for a 22% cut in SS benefits.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. The deficit deal calls for cuts in the defense budget.
Good luck getting Medicare for all to pass in Congress. And Obama HAS rejected any cuts for SS beneficiaries. He's said so repeatedly, and it's in the unwritten deal.

Try again.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Leading economist James K Galbraith says otherwise.
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 12:51 AM by girl gone mad
(public testimony, no copyright, emphasis mine):

I note from Chairman Simpson's conversation with Alex Lawson that the Commission has taken up the questions of the alleged "insolvency" of the Social Security system and of Medicare. If true, this is far outside any mandate of the Commission. Your mandate is strictly limited to matters relating to the deficit, debt-to-GDP ratio and fiscal stability of the U.S. Government as a whole. Social Security and Medicare are part of the government as a whole, so it is within your mandate to discuss those programs -- but only in that context.

To make recommendations about the matching of benefits to payroll taxes -- now or in the future -- would be totally inappropriate. Within your mandate, the levels of payroll taxes and of Social Security benefits are relevant only insofar as they influence the current and future fiscal position of the government as a whole. Their relationship to each other is not relevant. You are not a "Social Security Commission" and there is no provision in your Charter for a separate discussion of the alleged financial condition of either program taken on its own. Such discussions, if they are occurring, should be subjected to a point of order.

The usual "solvency" arguments directed at the Social Security system and at Medicare as separate entities are in any event complete nonsense. These programs are just programs, like any others, in the Federal Budget, and the Social Security and Medicare "systems" are thus fully solvent so long as the Federal Government is. Further, as explained below, under our monetary arrangements there is no "solvency" issue for the federal government as a whole. The federal government is "solvent" so long as U.S. banks are required to accept US. Government checks -- which is to say so long as there is a Federal authority in the Republic. This point has been demonstrated repeatedly in times of stress, notably during the Civil War and World War II.

7. As a Transfer Program, Social Security is Also Irrelevant to Deficit Economics.

Political discussions of "long-term fiscal sustainability" -- including in the Charter for this Commission -- make an economic error when they loosely use the word "entitlements" and suggest that supposed economic dangers of federal deficits (for instance, rising real interest rates) can be reduced by "entitlement reform." As a matter of economics, this is not true.

"Government Spending" -- as any textbook will verify -- is a component of GDP only insofar as the spending is directly on purchases of goods and services. That alone is what economists mean by the phrase "government spending." GDP is the final consumption of produced goods and services, and government is one of the major consuming sectors; the others being private business (investment) and households (consumption).

Social Security is a transfer program. It is not a spending program. A dollar "spent" on Social Security does not directly increase GDP. It merely reallocates a dollar from one potential final consumer (a taxpayer) to another (a retiree, a disabled person or a survivor). It also reallocates resources within both communities (taxpayers and beneficiaries). Specifically, benefits flow to the elderly and to survivors who do not have families that might otherwise support them, and costs are imposed on working people and other taxpayers who do not have dependents in their own families. Both types of transfer are fair and effective, greatly increasing security and reducing poverty -- which is why Social Security and Medicare are such successful programs.

Transfers of this kind are also indefinitely sustainable -- in fact there can intrinsically be no problem of sustainability with transfer programs. Apart from their effect on individual security, a true transfer program uses (by definition) no net economic resources. The only potential macroeconomic danger from "excessive" transfers is that the transfer function may be badly managed, leading to excessive total demand and to inflation. But there is no risk of this so long as the financial crisis remains uncured. Under present conditions Social Security and Medicare are bulwarks for stabilizing a total demand that would otherwise be highly deficient.

Similarly, cutting Social Security benefits, in particular, merely transfers real resources away from the elderly and toward taxpayers, and away from the poor toward those less poor. One can favor or oppose such a move on its own merits as social policy - but one cannot argue that it would save real resources that are otherwise being "consumed" by the government sector.

The conclusion to be drawn is that Social Security should in any event be off the agenda of your Commission, as it is a transfer program and not a program of public spending in the economic sense. In particular it does not use capital resources and will not drive up interest rates. This is true whether the "Social Security System" is in internal balance or not.

8. Markets are not calling for Deficit Reduction; Now or Later.

Let me turn next to a larger economic question. Do deficit projections matter? Are they important? Was the President well-advised to frame the mandate of the Commission as he did?

What, in short, are the economic consequences of a high public deficit and a rising debt-to-GDP ratio, and what (if any) benefits are to be expected from creating an expectation that deficits will come down and that the debt-to-GDP ratio will fall?

The idea that US economic policy should aim for a path of reduced deficits in the future, is shared by liberals and conservatives, and it is, from a political standpoint, a very powerful idea. The Commission's charter takes for granted that this goal is desirable. It specifies that your objective is to achieve a balanced "primary budget" -- net of interest payments, by 2015.

Yet your charter does say why this is an appropriate goal. It cites no study to which one might refer. It does not explain why 2015 is the right target date, as opposed to (say) 2025 or even 2050. It does not spell out the economic consequences -- if any -- of failing to meet the stated objective.

Does the requirement make economic sense? I shall tackle that question in two parts. The first accepts the view most people hold of the fiscal and financial world. The second reflects, from an operational standpoint, how that world actually works in practice.

Most informed laymen believe that the Federal government must borrow in order to spend. They believe that the interest rate on Treasury securities is set in a market for government bonds. The markets impose discipline on the government. Thus their idea is that "fiscal responsibility" will produce low long-term interest rates and tolerable borrowing conditions for the federal government, while "irresponsibility" will be punished by higher, and eventually intolerable, debt service costs.

Accepting this view for the moment, what does the present level of long-term interest rates tell us? As I write, thirty year Treasury bonds are yielding just over four percent -- or just a little more than half their yield a decade back. On the argument just given, this must be an extraordinary success of virtuous policy. It seems that Wall Street has made a strong vote of confidence in the fiscal probity of our current policies. This vote is unqualified, backed by money, contingent on nothing. It therefore represents a categorical rejection, by Wall Street itself, of the CBO's doomsday scenarios and all other deficit-scare stories.

On this theory, it follows that the mandate to reduce the primary deficit to zero by 2015 is unnecessary. Such an action can hardly reduce interest rates -- neither short nor long-term -- which are already historically low.

But wait a minute, some may say. Yes interest rates are low at the moment. But bond markets are fickle, they can turn on a dime. And what then?

Yes, it is possible that interest rates could rise. But the problem with this argument is that it takes us away from the premise of rationality. If bond markets are fickle and arbitrary, who is to say what they will do in response to any particular policy? In the face of irrational markets, the sensible policy is to borrow heavily for so long as they are offering a good deal. One may say that all good things end, and perhaps they will. But if markets are irrational, then by construction you cannot prevent this by "good behavior."

The conclusion from this section is that one cannot logically argue that markets insist on deficit reduction. Either the markets are rationally unworried about deficits, or they are acting irrationally right now, in which case they can hardly "insist" on anything.


You never seem to learn, despite the fact that it's been explained to you dozens of times. That tells me you have an agenda. You are a dogmatist, not a realist.


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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Your ideas on minting trillion dollar coins to retire any debt we desire to is the crazy thing.
I mean why would any government then have fiscal problems if all it takes is the minting of coins.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. It's just a procedural loophole.
It accomplishes the same exact thing a clean debt ceiling bill would have.

What exactly do you find so "crazy" about it?

Why do you think you know more about economics than Galbraith? Which economists do you read? What economic theories do you subscribe to?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. A super duper one.
Do you prefer Friskies or Meow Mix?
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I suppose the elitists will demand Fancy Feast.
:-p
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. They are finicky.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. Obama's commision voted to recommend a 22% cut in SS benefits for
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 12:31 AM by MannyGoldstein
the average recipient, more than $50,000 in lifetime benefits. The commision was designed to do this.

You may call that "strengthening", but many call it gutting.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Where did you get that figure? Because it has no basis in reality.
Please read the report yourself, because you keep repeating fallacies. http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/news/moment-truth-report-national-commission-fiscal-responsibility-and-reform

Although it doesn't really matter, since it was never implemented.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Letter from The Chief Actuary of Social Security
Let me know if you can't easily find it on Google - I'm on a phone and copying links is painful.

What kind of person designs a commision to recommend such an awful thing?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Your phone doesn't do copy/paste?
Sorry, but I've seen you post so much bogus information in the past that I have to question everything you post. Especially when you have nothing to back it up with.

I have found some references to the letter you mention, but none of them quote the letter and offer some very questionable numbers. How you phrase something is very important. I'm still looking for the letter itself and what the Chief Actuary actually said.

As to your question "What kind of person designs a commision {sic} to recommend such an awful thing?": he didn't "design" the commission to do anytihg but fail. 14 votes out of 18?

And please review the purpose of the commission. Your speculation is nothing but "chicken little".
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I can find editorials which reference the letter but also misrepresent
many of the other provisions of the proposal. But I can't find the letter itself, even when I copy/paste the reference itself. Therefore, since the other estimates are demonstrably wrong and considering the wording used, I can't give any credence to the claim. From the title quoted, I assume that the major concern of the letter is that the estimates are in "constant 2010 dollars".

I cannot substantiate your claims. I am willing to listen if you care to try.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Here's the letter, and...
The letter is here: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/solvency/FiscalCommission_20101109.pdf

It's cited in my white paper on Social Security: http://www.handsoffss.org/uploads/7/2/2/6/7226267/the_common_sense_guide_to_social_security_0.5.pdf

Please be careful about accusing others of lying or misrepresenting information, unless you have good proof, thanks.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Thank you for posting this! But I don't see the 22% or $50k figures
you quoted anywhere. Unless you are talking about some kind of calculation based on the tables presented at the end for proposals 1a and 1b.

I noticed you said the "average" beneficiary. If you averaged all beneficiaries including the high-end earners, then that is a very misleading figure, indeed! According to the tables in the letter the benefits for low-end earners (i.e., those who really need it) are actually INCREASED. The big "cuts" are to the high-end earners 9i.e., those who DON'T need it).

Now, granted, it does show a decrease over time. This is because it makes the assumption that the chained CPI will produce increases of 0.3% less than the current CPI COLA. However, no one knows if this is a valid assumption because knows what the chained CPI is going to compare to the current CPI calculations in the future.

So, yes, your statement of 22% and $50,000 is very misleading. First of all, it is nowhere in the letter. But if you are referring to the tables it is misleading because the bulk of the actual cuts are on the high earners who won't really need the benefits, while increasing the benefits for those who do.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. it will be stocked with insiders, no doubt
well, our side at least, you can bet on that.

think more Erskine Bowles, less Elizabeth Warren.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. With the same "horrifying" results, no doubt.
Although there were actaully a lot of progressive ideas represented, believe it or not.

http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/news/moment-truth-report-national-commission-fiscal-responsibility-and-reform

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