Does it bother you that DU has become

[socialist_n_TN]

more socialist? Per DU polls.

My answer is, of course, no.

[elocs]

1. More socialist? Based upon unscientific DU polls? You need more proof than that. n/t

[BeFree]

15. No. It is true

The biggest problem was that most DUers had no clue what socialism really meant.

More and more are being educated to the fact that the best this country offers rests on a socialist foundation.

[socialist_n_TN]

46. That's my take also........

There's a dedicated group of socialists (one type or another) that seems to have taken on that educational role. I'm proud of that group. After all, you can't self identify unless you know what you're self identifying about.

[Harmony Blue]

52. Agreed!

Educating the populace is vital.

[socialist_n_TN]

45. You've got to go by something.............

I haven't been posting very long (about a year and a half, I lurked for 6 months before that), but the first polls I saw showed a socialist contingent (one stripe or another, from DSA to Leninist) at about 40% and I was ECSTATIC! I had never been on a board with that high of a socialist self identification.

The last poll I saw on this self identification showed the broad band socialist tag at 60%. There was one the other day that showed "communist or capitalist" at 45% actual communist.

And of course, these polls are non scientific. In SO many ways. I realize that. But when you have polls that show a CONSISTANT rise in the self identification IN EVERY POLL TAKEN, I think that it's worth noting AND I think it PROBABLY shows a legitimate rise IN the self identification of the general membership.

Since I've also noted a serious rise in the reactionary threads, that's also evidence that the rise in socialist self identification is real.

[sufrommich]

47. You're reading a lot into self selected polls on DU.

Who's on at any specific time will skewer any result on any topic on DU. So will people voting in polls that they do not consider serious. There's just as much "proof" that the posters voting "communist" are trolls. In other words, proof of nothing.

[socialist_n_TN]

49. If it were a single poll or even a group of polls taken

in a short time frame, I'd wholeheartedly agree. But this is over a couple of years and it's consistent with EVERY poll on this subject.

Also anecdotally, there have been QUITE a few posts where people have said that they didn't even realize they WERE socialists until they actually studied what a socialist IS. Of course, that's still not "proof", but I do think it's indicative.

[sufrommich]

58. When the right wing labeled Obama and the whole Democratic

party "socialist" it is indeed indicative that we are all socialist. The bar has been moved to crazyland.

[socialist_n_TN]

59. Ah, but that move to "crazyland" has also allowed

the more thoughtful to actually study what socialism ACTUALLY is. After all, if you're going to be called something, you want to know what it is if, for no other reason, than to "refudiate" it. :)

And a lot of those people have decided that what they believe actually IS socialism. Lawrence O'Donnell, although not a DUer (I don't think), would be something of this type. Although, I'm sure Lawrence is savvy enough about politics to have KNOWN he was a DSA style socialist all along. At least he's out with it now whereas before, he didn't openly admit it.

[sufrommich]

61. Actually, O'Donnell was making the same point I made.

If the republicans are going to call anyone who believes in Government programs that include engineering a more equitable life for Americans a socialist, than we are all socialist.He also said Glenn Beck is a socialist too, obviously he was making a point about the extremist GOP.

[socialist_n_TN]

64. I believe he's since gone further with that........

Into a Euro socialist self identification.

But it doesn't matter about O'Donnell really. My point was being called a socialst causes thoughtful people to research what socialism REALLY is and it has lead a fairly large contingent to realize that what they believe IS socialism to a "more or less" extent.

[Orrex]

2. I call it socialish

Doesn't bother me much at all, in fact.

[patrice]

20. "socialish", right on! nt

[socialist_n_TN]

48. That's pretty good. I do the same with "leftish" positions

on issues. :) But "socialish" (a group that I include in the DSA types) is better than out-and-out capitalist.

[white_wolf]

3. Nah I like it.

Though I bet it drives the DLC and Blue Dog types crazy which I also like.

[Scuba]

38. +1

[socialist_n_TN]

50. True dat. That driving of the DLC and Blue Dog type

crazy is just a perk though. :)

[madinmaryland]

4. Socalist?? Seriesly??

[Ken Burch]

17. "Seriesly?" SERIOUSLY?

:eyes:

[madinmaryland]

23. Oh great. Please no casting asparagus in this thread!

:P

[Ken Burch]

32. Fur be it Frum me to cost any aspirations!

n/t.

[RKP5637]

5. If so, I'll vote for that!!! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

6. There's nothing wrong with being socialist, but DU's not the slightest bit socialist at all...

Unless socialism has a different meaning in the US than it does elsewhere in the world?

[socialist_n_TN]

53. You might be surprised. There's a pretty heavy

contingent of Bolshevik-Leninists around and that is DEFINITELY socialist.

As I stated in the explanatory posts above about the polls themselves, it's not particularly scientific, but the CONSISTANCY of the results along with a lot of anecdotal posts lead me to believe that it's a trend.

[joshcryer]

7. It's been a slow move toward authoritarian Trotskyism.

At one point an anarchist poll here would garner 90% of the votes.

[white_wolf]

34. I haven't necessary seen a move towards Trotskyism.

Me and the OP are the only admitted Troskyists here that I can think of. That all being said I'm not sure why you consider Trotskyism authoritarian when 1. it hasn't been tested and 2. A lot of his writings are anti-authoritarian.

[joshcryer]

39. I'd hate to take socialist_n_TN's topic off too much.

But I meant authoritarian or Trotskyite though for me they tend to be the same, there is a distinction.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. There are a few more wolf.............

that don't post as much as we do. And there are QUITE a few that I INFER are basically Trotskyist based on the content of their posts. Of course, Trotskyism is just Bolshevik-Leninist, so a lot of posters probably just consider it Leninism.

[socialist_n_TN]

56. I think that's because there has been a concentrated

educational initiative on Trotskyism and Bolshevik-Leninism on the part of several posters in the last couple of years. Couple that with the capitalist overreach and you have people who WANT to learn more about various anticapitalist systems. The more educated you become, the more you realize where you fit (if you fit at all) into these various systems.

[Vanje]

8. I WISH!

I wish DU was more Socialist, or at least more Democratic.

[MissDeeds]

12. Same here

on both counts.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. Where there's an action, there's usually a reaction

ESPECIALLY in politics. A lot of the reaction to leftish positions on DU by the more "centrist" types are BECAUSE of the growing socialist sentiment on the board.

From what I understand, DU has always been something of an outlier in the Democratic Party, in that it's MUCH more left than the general Dem leadership. It's understandable that there would be a reaction from the group of posters that support the LEADERSHIP who are moving more to the right, when the general membership moves even more left. That reaction is an inevitability.

[Enthusiast]

62. Me too. At least we could return to the

sentiment of the pre-Saint Ronnie days.

[tishaLA]

9. It's become MORE socialist?

I'd say just the opposite, in fact. I've been here for 8 years now and I think it's become far less so.

[joshcryer]

13. Concur, been here since '02, almost a decade.

[JVS]

28. I see a lot more red-baiting now.

[joshcryer]

40. Eh, it's due to the forcing of it down peoples throats.

8 years ago we could all agree that socialized health care and such was a wonderful idea. And then we'd have a Bush bashing party.

Now we have a Democrat in office we have similar views, but because we have a Democrat in office it's just horrible that said Democrat isn't doing every single thing we want, and clearly we need to throw him out of office. Some people, however, are compelled to defend the Democrats we do have in office, because they know that pragmatically the "throwing Dems out of office" garbage is a failing strategy, and party unity is the only solution.

And so it goes. Progressives fragment themselves further by eating their own, as it has always happened over the course of history. The Bolsheviks ate the Esers, the SRP, the Menshevik's and the anarchists, particularly because the Bolsheviks had right wing views on freedom.

It's always right wing views on freedom that win.

So depressing.

[JVS]

41. Blame the victim. Is there anything that isn't the left's fault?

I think it's because there are too many moderates, globalists, warmongers, and capitalists posting.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. And that's because of the growing popularity

of the site AND the leftish positions among the people on this site and in the general population. In politics, actions ALWAYS spark reactions.

For EVERY revolution, there WILL be a counterrevolution.

[socialist_n_TN]

63. To this whole sub thread...........

THERE IS ALWAYS A REACTION TO A POSITION THAT GROWS IN POPULARITY.

This site (from what I understand) has ALWAYS been MORE leftish than the Democratic Party leadership. In '02 support for the Bush Wars was running high among the general population INCLUDING Democrats, yet I'm sure that here it was almost unananimously opposed. As the imperialists and capitalists overreached, this site became more popular.

What happens when a site becomes more popular is that more people with more divergent views begin to pay attention. On a "Democratic Party" site, even if it's an unofficial one, this means that the supporters of the Dem LEADERSHIP begin to post to try and influence this segment of the Party in a more "centrist" direction.

The overreach also pushes some FARTHER left, so this sharpens the class and political antagonisms.

[lunatica]

10. Hell no. Socialism is the future if we want to survive

[socialist_n_TN]

66. NEVER a truer statement spoken^^^^^^^^^^^

Anticapitalism and socialism is a matter of survival for the entire human race.

[Nye Bevan]

11. No. Sometimes it is a little tough but overall I'm coping (nt)

[leftstreet]

14. Where is this 'socialist' forum you speak of?

:hi:

I know the point you're making though. Sadly, the more the peons cry for economic equality the more tptb and their sycophants shout them down.

:-(

[socialist_n_TN]

67. In politics, as in physics, for every action

there's a reaction. :)

The red baiting and "shouting down" to which you refer is a direct RESULT of the growing popularity OF the calls for economic equality. Consider it as making progress in our educational efforts. "First they ignore you........" and all that.

[Odin2005]

16. The whole party needs to become more socialist.

The DLCers can go pound sand.

[patrice]

18. no

[-..__...]

19. It's because of the unemployment numbers.

Wait until the numbers go down, then the poll numbers will likewise go down.

[socialist_n_TN]

68. Yes that's probable.........

Socialism ALWAYS raises it's profile in hard economic times. The harder the times, the higher the profile. However, there WILL be a group that won't go back once "converted". Simply because the socialist economic model is MUCH more fair to the average person than the capitalist model is. Once they know about it, they're hooked.

And another consideration in THIS particular economic downturn is that I'm not so sure that the unemployment rate WILL go down. Or not much. This is the "surplus army of labor" that Marx talked about. Since this is what the capitalists want and since they own our government lock, stock, and barrell, I don't think there's going to be a great deal of improvement in the numbers. Further, in this worldwide race to the bottom, even IF some of the job NUMBERS improve, that doesn't mean that the standard of living will improve.

This time, socialism is here to stay BECAUSE of capitalist overreach and greed.

[dbt]

21. If you'll just accept that DU needs more eyeballs, longer,

you'll have the whole picture. The more drama, the longer people hang around. That means MORE MONEY from BigAss Corporate Sponsors. Shut up and go shopping.

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

22. nah... we wont become a socialist nation. so, differing view on du is fine. i agree some

not with some. i can do that.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Are you equating socialism with not allowing differing views?

I'm not sure if I've read yr post right, as I find it a bit disjointed with the punctuation and sentence structure, so I just thought I'd check and see if that's what yr trying to say about socialism...

[seabeyond]

30. i would not want to be a socialist nation. i am not concerned we will become a socialist nation

i like differing views on du, so no, i am not concerned with du becoming a more socialist board. i agree with some things that are socialist. i disagree with other things that are socialist.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. What's yr idea of a socialist nation?

Not being American, I do sometimes notice on DU that there's a bit of confusion about what socialism actually is. Do you think some European countries are socialist nations? Or Australia, where we have a universal healthcare system, and the party that forms our current government is a member of the Socialist International?

http://www.socialistinternational.org/viewArticle.cfm?ArticlePageID=931

[seabeyond]

33. ah, well

you see, i really was not going to get into what i prefer, here. this board is becoming more a socialist board, and while i like to listen to others, i generally do not share my point of view. then it becomes way more work than i am willing to put into it. even prior to obama becoming elected, i have not found it conducive to discussing politics. that is why i stay more in the social issues on du.

[mike3121]

24. Socialist??

Do you mean European type socialist or old style marxist/communist socialist? "Labels we don't need no stinking labels."

[JVS]

29. Leninism or capitalist roader revisionism: those are the only two options.

[socialist_n_TN]

69. Actually in the context of this question, I meant both

Socialists of one type or another. Actually what I'm seeing is that BOTH groups are gaining in numbers on DU.

[Marrah_G]

25. I wish

[unkachuck]

26. "Does it bother you..."

....heavens no, and one can never be too Socialist, anymore than one can be too pregnant....Socialist programs and policies are just good common sense benefiting regular folk....

....it's the irregular folks that object to Socialism....

[pnwmom]

35. No. Not as long as DUers aren't encouraging people to withhold votes from Democrats. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

70. The Communist Party USA no longer runs candidates

for office and usually endorses Democrats.

[pnwmom]

77. I'm thinking of the Greens and the Naderites. n/t

[Fearless]

36. Most benign thread of the day... K&R just for that!

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. I don't think it has, at all.

By and large the average person posting here is considerably more centre-right than they'd probably be willing to admit to themselves. There are a host of issues where the majority, or an extremely vocal minority, express opinions which I wouldn't consider in any way "leftist", from gun control, to immigration, to capital punishment, to general agreement with the pernicious idea of American exceptionalism. The only time you see anything remotely socialist is when people call for single-payer healthcare reform (which is something most European countries, including the one I live in, have...and I wouldn't call the UK socialist either), or when someone with a severely limited understanding of economics suggests nationalising oil companies (which is more because they think it's a good way to ensure low petrol prices, which it isn't, than out of any socialist impulse...observe that no such calls are made for any other industries; the motivation is pure selfishness and more of that American exceptionalism..."we have a God-given right to cheap gasoline!", never mind that you've still got it...try $8+ per US gallon at current exchange rates).

[socialist_n_TN]

71. Well as a Bolsevik-Leninist, I'm not in favor of

gun control because I believe in self defense and the defense of the working class against capitalist oppression. You need armaments to even ATTEMPT to do that. On immigration, since I'm a Trotskyist, I believe in the WORLDWIDE version of the working class. I've got more in common with a Mexican worker than I do with an American capitalist. I don't believe in capital punishment as a general rule. And the only "American Exceptionalism" I want to see is a worker's democracy instituted in this MOST capitalist of nations. I believe in nationalizing all large industries and a planned economy, at LEAST for "general welfare" type industries.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture.

[Azathoth]

42. Part of the problem is that some self-styled "socialists" don't know what the term means n/t

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[divvy]

44. Jesus was more than socialist .... he was communist by today's standards.

He sure as hell was not a BMW driving lawyer who owned apartment buildings, hated social welfare programs, and bought stock in the worlds largest defense (war machine) manufacturers.

He did not seem to believe in private ownership, fed the poor, healed the sick for free, drove the bankers/stock traders out of the temple with a whip, and opposed organized religion.

What happened to his message?

[NorthCarolina]

51. Actually, I believe DU has become inundated with Conservatives

and the mods seem to have elevated them to protected class status. While I wish your contention were true, I find DU to actually be quite the opposite.

[socialist_n_TN]

72. I'm not talking about the "protected class" of posters

I'm talking about the "proletariat class of posters" if you will.

The "protected class" is because of the gaining in popularity and influence of DU. The "centrists" have been trying, but they haven't been successful in gaining converts to their "centrism". They are about 25% of DU membership at MOST. But true, because of their "protected" status they are a NOISY minority.

[Romulox]

54. DU is way more "centrist" than when I joined. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

73. See post #62

Don't mistake noisy "centrists" for numbers. The numbers for the "centrists" aren't any more than 10% to 25% AT MOST of the general membership. Because of their protected status, they ARE able to make more noise than their numbers would suggest.

[madokie]

60. I've been here a while and I like change so I'm comfortable with DU as it is today

Its still the best place to stay abreast of whats going on out there.

[CreekDog]

74. You can find out more on FB

look for us in the group, "Commies against Jesus"

[amborin]

75. bothers me

that it's become less so, imho

[Skidmore]

76. I don't know about more socialist, but it

has become more uncivil and less tolerant in a very incoherent way at times.