Our Goose is Cooked

[Donnachaidh]

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/mike-whitney/36532/our-goose-is-cooked

This must be what it was like in Russia before the Soviet Union collapsed. The government's so crooked that nothing works right, the infrastructure's in a shambles, millions of people are scraping by on government handouts, and everyone's on a permanent downer. Welcome to the United States of America 2011.

I mean, seriously, things are really looking bad. Apart from killing people, we really don't do anything anymore. We have a humongous, over-bloated military that lumbers from one war to the next spreading misery wherever it goes, and meanwhile, back at home, things continue to go to the dogs. How long can that go on?

You can't get a job anymore, because all the jobs have been shipped off to Guandong Province or someplace South of the border. The best you can hope for is some part-time gig jerking double-tall-mochas or steering folks towards the red-dot special on Aisle 9. So, how can you sustain a middle class on a measly $9.50 per hour? It can't be done.

And just look at Washington. What a joke. The White House is just a protection racket for big business. And Congress, well, what can you say about congress? We'd be better off if they just packed their bags and went home for all the good they do. Then at least we could turn the House of Representatives into a homeless shelter or something that had some practical value for people. At any rate, we wouldn't have to listen to the bloviating of numbskulls like Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid anymore. That's got to be worth something.

More at the link --

[madokie]

1. If you honestly feel that "The White House is just a protection racket for big business"

Then what are you here for. This site is for supporters of our democratic ideas not for bashing a very good Democratic President. Criticism is one thing but this is something else.

-1

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladjf]

9. ". . . a very good Democratic President". I disagree with that

assessment of Obama's performance. (I voted for him and have never voted Republican in my life and I'll vote for the Democratic nominee in 2012.)

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladjf]

100. The Dems still might win in 2012 because the Republican ticket

is lame and the Republicans are losing a lot of their supporters. (IMO)

[CoffeeCat]

166. The corporations that control this country...

...namely, the banks, the health-insurance junta and the oil corporations--have deemed Obama a worthy
President. He's given them everything they desire, and then some.

There will be no formidable Republican opponent.

There is no need.

[liberalmike27]

170. Yep

They'd much rather have a Democrat doing Republican things, than a Republican. It allows the Republicans to move further right. Why change? And to the next, yea, far too many democrats knee-jerkily defend Obama, as do a lot of black folks.

I get what he's doing, he's trying to get reelected, and to do so you can't upset the corporate overlords. Hopefully he'll be better, but we'll see.

[The Doctor.]

174. Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct.

Just watch gas prices plummet in the months leading up to 11/12.

We'll be well on our way out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden will still be dead. Jobs reports will be better. Equal rights will have been won more and more (with or without him). Everything will look pretty good.

Then for the next four years, we will see great economic recovery. A new set of bubbles will be created. Many will ride them... but mostly those who created them.

Then, after the long, arduous reign of a 'black man' has been suffered enough, a New Tea Party, with a different name but the same members, will be resurrected from the grounds of the last. They will continue on with their fears of the 'black taint' on any democratic candidate, and they will propel the corporate stooge Republican to the head of the classless.

It is then that the corpo-military-media-industrial-maniacal-complex will finally cash in, once and for all, on the latest and lastest economic boom of a bursting empire. In doing so, they will happily throw the half of the conscientious and rational America to the rabid and ignorant other half. They won't fund the 'thinkers'.

I hope I'm wrong, of course. I really don't know how much longer this dance can be re-done. I'm hoping that it's a few more times at least, but this is a newer pattern than any precedent (obviously), so there is no way to predict with much more certainty.

Unfortunately, I am seldom wrong.

[Hutzpa]

216. I think you are being disingenuous in your assessment

of this President, but then again if I was being paid to say things that are completely incorrect there is no reason
why I should pretend that the situation this country is in was created by the very same people who started an
unjust war which has crippled our country and it's economy.

[CoffeeCat]

239. Uh yeah....

The same "people" who started an unjust war are the same "people" who have made
sure that the corporations run our entire nation!

Why do you think these "people" started an unjust war? The corporations wanted
those wars to make money. You and I agree that the bad guys, are the ones who started
the wars. But please...do you seriously think they stopped at war?

The corporations ensured that no meaningful healthcare reform bill was passed and that
a public option would never see the light of day. The health-insurance companies demanded
(through campaign contributions) to remain at the center of any health-care model. They
got what they paid for.

Wall Street made out like a bandit during this administration. The banks are thrilled with
Obama, who has thus far--managed to keep them deregulated and reckless--which is exactly
what they paid for. Obama surrounds himself with former Wall Streeters, and corporate mucky mucks.

The Oil companies still get their write offs, as they rake in tens of billions in profits
every year. BP got to destroy the Gulf without accountability. In fact, when our EPA told
BP to stop dumping Corexit into the Gulf, they ignored it--then they used our Coast Guard to
keep reporters from reporting the story. It's all very disgusting...if you bother to pay attention.

The corporations also want the American public muzzled and left without privacy--and Obama has been
happy to comply. Obama also failed to reinstate Habeas Corpus--which during the campaign, he promised
to reinstate. The corporations don't want Americans wandering around with rights.

I could go on and on. The corporations run this country. I don't know if Obama was a big liar
during the campaign, or if they've threatened him into cooperation. Does it matter?

Interesting how you suggest that I'm "paid" to say the things I do. You're so way over the top. I'm
a former Obama precinct captain. I was "all in" and I cried the night he was elected. I worked hard
to get him elected and Newsweek mentioned me in an article about campaign volunteers. You couldn't
have found a more loyal Obama supporters. He was our last hope.

If you fail to see the glaring injustices happening in our government, then I feel sorry for you.

[Hutzpa]

242. Why put the blame on Obama solely

this country has three levels of government; 1) The Executive branch, 2) The Legislative and 3) The Judiciary, it takes all of these
branches of government working together to change any thing instantly, without that you get gridlock, nothing, you get that, nada.

What we are faced with at this present time is a President working overtime to please his constituent and has done so with whatever
little he has available to him, considering the Republicans in the Senate have taken upon themselves to block all if not most of his
nominated executive officers, I will say yes he has done an hell of a job with what he has available to him.

I doubt if any other President would have done what he has done so far with all the shenanigans going on in the Senate and the House.

Put the blame where it should be, the President cannot carry out any law without the support of Congress, that is the reason why we need
to work overtime and nominate Reps that are willing to work with this President as we have seen the Republicans cannot.

[CoffeeCat]

244. The President could TRY to bust up...

...this cabal.

He could level with the American people, and tell us that the entire system is corrupt
and we barely have a democracy.

That would be the MOST he could do.

The least he could do--is fight against it. He IS the President of the United States, is he not? Does
he not have a mouth from which he could speak and address the American people--and tell them how dire
the situation is?

Obviously, there are other people in powerful positions who need to do the same.

No one is doing ANYTHING to bust up this corporate cabal. A couple of our elected officials give
speeches occassionaly. That's about it.

The corporations control our government. It's everybody's fault. There are hundreds of elected
officials in on the fix. Why shouldn't I hold my President accountable? We're at the 11th hour
here. We need a hero. There's nothing wrong with demanding that our President let us know--and
try to do something--about a Fascist, corporate takeover of our government.

Why do we make so many excuses when we are in such dire straights? The damn ship is sinking--and I wonder
why the captain isn't telling the passengers about the reality--and people get upset that I blame
the captain.

Come on.

[hulka38]

250. Great post!

If the corporations are truly lording over the President to where he has little power to affect change, then a man of the people, a leader, would use the bully pulpit to at least make the American people aware of the extent of the problem and rally them. Anything short of that is betrayal.

[sendero]

198. The two words..

... that might save Obama are a name - Paul Ryan. With Ryan the republicans finally went too far, and their assumption that people are two stupid to understand the uselessness of a "voucher" was a big mistake on their part.

If Obama will STICK TO HIS GUNS and offer NOTHING RESEMBLING THE RYAN PROPOSAL in exchange for the debt limit raise he just might manage a 2012 win. IMHO.

[FarLeftFist]

105. I think there is too much knee-jerk of offense of Obama here. n/t

[whathehell]

110. I agree with your disagreement. n/t

[russspeakeasy]

152. Yes, he told us to "hold his feet to the fire". That's what a lot

of DUers are doing. You know, making him keep some of the promises he made in the campaign.
Is that wrong???

[ClarkUSA]

226. A nutcase OP op-ed from PUMA Smirking Chimp don't qualify. BTW, he also said this --- >

“People will have the satisfaction of having a purist position and no victories for the American people,” he says. “And we will be able to feel good about ourselves and sanctimonious about how pure our intentions are and how tough we are, and in the meantime, the American people are still seeing themselves not being able to get health insurance because of preexisting conditions or not being able to pay their bills because their unemployment insurance ran out.”

Obama declares: “That can’t be the measure of how we think about our public service. That can’t be the measure of what it means to be a Democrat. This is a big, diverse country. Not everybody agrees with us."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2010/12/07/politico-obama-slams-liberal-complaints-against-him/

[NNN0LHI]

10. See how we end up with a boob like Bush with a +90% approval rating madokie?

People can be conned so easily.

We currently have probably the best President during my life and people are blaming their problems that have been ongoing for years and much of it is self-inflicted on Obama.

Generally speaking Americans aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

Don

[Solomon]

13. + 1000

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Gee, maybe we've been too hard on Nixon, then.

After all, he too inherited his war. And he actually ENDED his. Like a good socialist he enacted wage & price controls to counter the wartime inflation. He stood by as his vice-president went to prison for corruption. He started the EPA, the Clean Air Act.

Obama has expanded, not ended, his wars, with increased involvement in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya. He stood by as the banksters who crashed our economy walked off with billions of taxpayer money paid to them as bonuses for a job well done. He has done precious little to alter the course of deregulation, in fact promoted the expansion of offshore drilling even as the mess in the gulf is still being assessed.

Just how is Obama the 'best President during my life'?

His single greatest accomplishment is in not being Bush.

[Divernan]

27. +1000

[The Doctor.]

181. Supporting that which can be quantitatively disproven,

Or at least shown to be in disregard of the facts, is not a virtue in the reality-based community.

[hifiguy]

40. +1 for truthiness nt

[Myrina]

61. +1000

Thank you.

[The Doctor.]

182. That would be a worthwhile response,

If the poster weren't simply http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1215164&mesg_id=1220517">making things up.

I understand that Obama is somehow evil... up until you actually take the trouble to look at what he's done.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saras]

74. +1000

Carter was better than Obama. Carter went in the right direction, but not very far. Obama went in the wrong direction, rapidly and effectively.

In spite of his bad intentions, in order to get his own agenda done, Nixon delivered more good than Obama even promised before the election.

In spite of sucking the corporate dick, Clinton turned the economy around. Obama handed over the last of our money to the thieves.


We're here because we ARE Democrats, and we want Obama to be a Democrat, and he said he won't be unless we push him there. So we have to somehow push harder than the corporate money does, or lose to it.

[The Doctor.]

183. I don't disagree, everyone should have listened to Carter.

Oddly, no one did.

Right now, we have a President who is doing the best he is allowed to do.

And he's actually doing http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1215164&mesg_id=1220517">well.

Not by much, but it's foolish and naïve to cast him in the light that the 'above' poster has. Discovery and diligence should be regular exercises around here, but they are apparently not.

[Enthusiast]

77. I agree 100%.

Talk about head in the sand. I guess people just aren't paying attention.

[The Doctor.]

177. Then you are not apprised of the reality.

The poster is either misinformed, or deliberately dishonest.

If you care about 'paying attention', then check the links here; http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1215164&mesg_id=1220517

That would be attention well-paid.

[Enthusiast]

192. What are disagreeing with,

specifically? I read your post. What?

[The Doctor.]

219. The poster is wrong

about Obama 'promoting the expansion of offshore drilling'. The poster is misleading by stating that bankers 'walked off with billions of taxpayer money'. The poster is deliberately dismissive of the good reasons for Libya and Pakistan. The poster misrepresents Obama's intentions which have been demonstrated to be the opposite of what the poster suggests regarding Iraq and Afghanistan.

In short, the poster utilized the anger and ignorance of some in order to perpetuate anti-Obama sentiment on DU.

And it works on those who do not choose to do some diligence, thus the "[phone]" type responses to it.

[Enthusiast]

225. Maybe Obama should

make his intentions more clear. He is the only Democrat that has unlimited access to the media but often allows his intentions to go misrepresented.

During the eight years of Bush we heard him repeatedly crow to the media of his 'great accomplishments'. Of course Bush sounded like a fool. But if Obama's objective is to be more humble he is badly served by it.

Obama is surrounded by a bunch of incompetents feeding him faulty information.

And the bankers did, in fact, walk off with billions in taxpayer money.

[The Doctor.]

237. Agreed wholeheartedly.

It's infuriating.

The banks have been repaying the loans. That's not exactly 'walking off' with anything.

[ProSense]

79. "After all, he too inherited his war. And he actually ENDED his."

Yeah, via Cambodia.

"Like a good socialist he enacted wage & price controls to counter the wartime inflation. He stood by as his vice-president went to prison for corruption. He started the EPA, the Clean Air Act."

Well, the activists who pushed for the end of the war and the Clean Air Act didn't have access to the Internet.

[Dawgs]

82. +1

:hi:

[frylock]

97. fuckin-a!

:applause:

[The Doctor.]

179. How unfortunate that such an esteemed fellow

Can so easily applaud disinformation.

Do the research. The poster is incorrect.

[frylock]

236. are you denying that obama has expanded bush's wars?

oh do please enlighten me.

[Maven]

99. Plus one million

[The Doctor.]

180. Except that the poster is almost entirely mistaken.

Don't jump off a bridge just because someone tells you the wind is good and the water is nice.

[awoke_in_2003]

104. you forgot deregulation....

of GMOs- I wonder how much Monsanto paid to get that done?

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

176. Then you need to start actually learning.

That's the problem with people who have difficulty discerning anything; They don't LOOK. Just as you obviously have not.

Everyone who has tried to directly equate them has failed on every level wingnut-style.

Would you care to try?

Go ahead. In what ways are they so alike?

This is an easy one, but not as easy as describing the ways in which they are so very, very different.

[BklnDem75]

231. Using a 0 instead of an O is not very clever

It's quite revealing actually.

[man4allcats]

119. He's not Bush?

I thought he was Bush in disguise with someone dubbing in words to compensate for Bush's IQ deficit.

[grahamhgreen]

123. Actually it was federalizing student loans, IMHO.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeadEyeDyck]

135. "His single greatest accomplishment is in not being Bush." LOL

[ClarkUSA]

139. Bullshit. Pres. Obama's HCR is an achievement that is second only to FDR's SS.

Furthermore, he ended the Iraq war. His strings-attached TARP II has been resoundingly successful in terms of payback to the taxpayers, as has his auto bailout. He has reregulated Wall Street and the credit-card industry and cut out the banks as the middle man in student loans, much to their dismay and hatred (see Koch Brothers) and has been the greenest President in history in terms of investment in green tech.

<< Just how is Obama the 'best President during my life'? >>

Go to http://www.whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com if you're really interested in the facts but let's face it, someone who lauds Nixon probably isn't.

[The Doctor.]

184. Hatred is deaf and blind, yet somehow very loud.

Thanks for pointing those out though.

Not like it'll do any good around here.

[ClarkUSA]

224. Yes, this has been the case for years now.

<<Thanks for pointing those out though. >>

Glad to be of some service. :hi:

<< Not like it'll do any good around here. >>

True, but all it takes for evil to flourish is the silence of good men, right?

BTW, the OP op-ed source is an Obama-hating PUMA, of course: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1215164&mesg_id=1220431

That should tell you something.

[whathehell]

193. Bullshit yourself, if you think his plan surpassed Medicare. n/t

[sendero]

202. The Iraq..

...war is over only for people who fall for semantic arguments. It will be over when the last troop comes home, not one fucking day before. Troops are still dying in Iraq, some "over".

The HCR bill is a crazy quilt of small bits that will take decades to judge. The ONLY cost cutting measure that is guaranteed to work in our "name your price" health care system would have been a public option but Obama could not be bothered with that. Calling this an achievement akin to FDR's is ridiculous.

[The Doctor.]

150. Well, it's not like he put a moratorium

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/obama-moratorium-no-offshore-drilling-while-he-s-office">on drilling, or like any of the TARP loans Bush/Cheney paid out are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program">being paid back with interest, or as though there was any good reason to act in http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=215294&R=R3">Libya or http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-killed/story?id=13505703">Pakistan, or as if Obama wants to http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-gop-dems-push-to-pull-us-forces-out-of-afghanistan/2011/05/25/AGB00HBH_story.html">draw down troop levels.

Seriously, Either he really sucks, or you're just making stuff up.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

185. That's all they'll let him do.

I'm sorry, but did you think Presidents have the same power now that FDR did?

Oh hell no! They learned their lesson then, and they won't let it happen again.

You seem to have something of a clue, unlike some around here.

[girl gone mad]

186. Such a tragedy for the young.

They will suffer the consequences of his disastrous neoliberal agenda for decades to come.

[NYC_SKP]

28. Yup. And people say Sarah Palin is unelectable. I say it's already been proven that she isn't.

Exhibit A:



Exhibit B:



Exhibit C:



Exhibit D:



Many Americans are suckers for an idiot, and an idiot in a skirt might be enough to edge out a smart black man.

:patriot:

[BuelahWitch]

45. Two big differences: Bush had Karl Rove and the Bush family name

Karl Rove has shown blatant disdain toward Sarah Palin. It is unlikely he would allow her to become the Republican nominee, no matter how loud the teabaggers yelled.
People who invoke Sarah Palin = GW Bush seem to forget this. They may both be dumb as rocks, but Bush's prospects were good because of his genes and his turd blossom.

[CrispyQ]

67. Also, Bush was a puppet they could control.

Palin is a loose cannon & she's just itchin' to show her base what a maverick she is, by bucking the repub establishment.

[JackRiddler]

52. A president makes precious little difference to how the system works.

Especially if he's not interested in changing any of the fundamentals.

Imperatives of Empire, Pentagon, and the military-intelligence-industrial complex rule the roost. They're talking about starving out the old and poor, and not only are cuts to the military not on the table, but we've actually started new wars in Obama time.

[Ignis]

89. "the best President during my life"

You were born in or after 2000?

[jaysunb]

106. I don't know about NNN0LHI, but

I was born in 1943 and happen to agree that, under the circumstances, Obama is the best President in MY lifetime, and I've had 11 others to compare him to.

[Ignis]

124. That's fascinating. Think you can distill the rationale into

I haven't heard that sentiment expressed by a single leftist/liberal/Democrat over 30 in my local political sphere, so when I see it on DU, I'm quite curious to hear why you feel it to be true.

TIA :hi:

[jaysunb]

149. I'll try.....

Every President is presented w/ a different set of circumstances when they come into office. Be it wartime, peacetimes, economic concerns, civil/social turmoil etc, each has and will be judged by what they hand off to their successor. We can look at the record of those that have served and make our own evaluation of their leadership and how it may have impacted our personal life or that of society as a whole.

With President Obama, we can only judge him by what he's accomplished over the first half of his term, and so far, by my reckoning, he's had some pretty extraordinary achievements in a very short time--particularly considering the circumstances and the novelty of his race.

His inheritance of all the aforementioned circumstances combined w/ the realignment of global realities has presented him with the seemingly impossible task of holding it all together while trying to move forward at the same time. So far, he has been more than up to the task.

No matter what lies ahead, I think history will judge him well.

[Ignis]

232. Thanks very much for the rational reply, jaysunb.

(BTW, my post above asked for a distillation in under 20 words, but DU cuts off anything after a "greater-than" or "less-than" symbol. Sorry for the confusion.)

I'm certainly sympathetic to the mess President Obama was handed when he took over office after Shrub, but I'm afraid I can't agree that his performance (even under those circumstances) has risen to the level of "extraordinary" in both the foreign and domestic spheres. I think he was handed a mandate on election day that he didn't exploit to its full advantage--perhaps due to poor policy advisers, perhaps due to toxic personalities like Rahm, perhaps due to an inherently cautious nature...who knows? Drastic times call for drastic measures, and I think Obama missed a golden opportunity to steer the ship of America to the Left after the Right spent 8 years showing us exactly how nakedly greedy and callous it really is.

I do agree that history will judge President Obama well--particularly after the train-wreck of the Shrub years--but I don't agree that he rises to the level of best president in the past ~50 years.

But reasonable people can disagree, right? It's a big tent. :hi: Thanks again for your civility.

[jaysunb]

246. And thank you for yours (civility) as well.

How bout we get together again in 50 years and revisit this subject.
Trust me, I really hope we do. :rofl:

[Ignis]

248. I'll drink to that.

:toast:

And I'm still hopeful that President Obama will appoint Dennis Kucinich to run the Department of Peace when he's re-elected in 2012.

;)

[emilyg]

164. We're about the same age - I can't agree with you.

[jaysunb]

247. That's ok

I'll bet we're not far apart overall though. :)

[emilyg]

249. Bet you are right.

:hug:

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Green Manalishi]

94. Right, the continued 'War on drugs'

the harassment of medical marijuana users- tell me this President couldn't bring that to a screeching halt.

[John_Adams]

102. "how we end up with a boob like Bush with a +90% approval rating madokie?"

If I recall correctly, they said Americans saw him as a guy they could sit down and have a beer with.

Americans liked Clinton and they also like Obama. The issues don't matter nearly as much as the persona.

[whathehell]

111. Best president in your life?...I'm sorry, but I would have to assume that

you are relatively young.

[ClarkUSA]

235. Why would you "assume that"? I feel the same way.

[whathehell]

256. I don't know how old you are, ClarkUSA but

in my view, recent democratic presidents, beginning

with Clinton and including Obama, are not nearly

as "democratic" as earlier democratic presidents.

I was a child just bordering on adolescence when

JFK was shot, but both he and Carter were

far less conservative.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[obxhead]

131. I don't blame Obama for the many of the problems facing America.

I blame him when he supports those problems.

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dotymed]

206. I think you may be pretty young.

I worked for Candidate Obama. I have seldom been pleased with President Obama. I agree with the OP, basically we are a nation by and for the corporations. I guess that is why they now have the official title of "persons."

[Divernan]

12. Clue:"Supporters of our democratic ideas" do not pander to Big Corporate/MIC interests

This is Democratic Underground - not a cheerleading group for any politicial actions simply because they emanate from someone who puts a "D" after his or her name. Last time I looked, the Democratic Party still has primaries.

At this point, baring a primary opponent, I'll vote for Obama, not because he's a "very good Democratic president", but at this point because he's slightly less onerous than having a GOP president.

[rucky]

14. Find the word "Obama" in the OP or the linked article.

Clue: He isn't mentioned in either.

[Divernan]

20. Clue: "White House" refers to the current inhabitant thereof.

Not to mention the defenders on this thread referring to him as just the bestest Democratic president we've ever had.

Guess they weren't around for Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton, et al.

[whathehell]

112. +100

[progressoid]

16. "This site is for supporters of our democratic ideas not bashing a very good Democratic President"

That's where this becomes problematic for a lot of people. What does one do when the very good Democratic President doesn't support our Democratic ideas?

[xiamiam]

70. tell the truth about it at least instead of pretending he represents us because he has a D behind

his name
more wars more caving to the mic no help for homeowners..zip nada..goldman sachs running rampant ..great speaker..hollow promises..

[ClarkUSA]

143. Why don't you "tell the truth about it... instead of pretending he" doesn't represent us.

He ended the Iraq war. He has tried to help homeowners -- I should know, HAMP helped me. Wall Street reform, credit card reform, for more FACTS instead of false rhetoric: http://www. whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com

[RaleighNCDUer]

213. That is the epitome of false rhetoric - a series of one-liners

with no examination of WHAT those 'achievements' actually do.

They may be good talking points in confronting the wingnuts, but when arguing with progressives who have an interest in the issues you might try presenting something with a little more depth.

[ClarkUSA]

228. That's false. Unlike you, I backed up my statements with a link to a fact-filled website.

Nice to know there are so many fans of the PUMA-sourced OP op-ed, though.

[LiberalEsto]

17. I don't consider him a Democrat. nt

[Godhumor]

18. Funny, I consider him one of the best we currently have. I guess opinions are varied. n/t

[Divernan]

23. What makes him the best? Three wars at once? That really sets a record!

He's certainly the best president from any party which the Military Industrial Complex has ever had!

Even the Soviets faced historical and military realities and got out of Afghanistan.

[ClarkUSA]

146. Pres. Obama has ended the Iraq war. Afghanistan combat troops will start w/d in July.

Involvement is Libya is not a war, dear.

<< He's certainly the best president from any party which the Military Industrial Complex has ever had! >>

What a pantload. Prove it.

[provis99]

156. the Iraq War is still going on.

If you don't think it is, tell that to the families of the dead soldiers dying every month.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

218. I proved you wrong. Subjective rhetoric is not proof.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

162. Re: "Pres. Obama has ended the Iraq war."

Sorry, you have said that 3 times in this thread, and it just is not true.

May 25, 2011
<snip>
U.S. military bases and personnel in Iraq have come under increasing attacks from mortar fire and bombings, in what the military says is an effort to drive the Americans from the country. Two U.S. soldiers were killed Sunday by a roadside bomb in Baghdad.
<snip>
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303654804576343700854655730.html

continued...
<snip>
The Pentagon said on Tuesday that it would rotate two brigades and a division headquarters into Iraq this summer, a move that would position the U.S. to maintain a substantial force in the country should Baghdad request an extension.

Mr. Kagan, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute who regularly advises military commanders, argued in his paper, which was released Tuesday, that Iraq won't be able to defend itself against Iran and its agents without a U.S. troop presence.
<snip>

That talking point of yours need a revision. Sorry. I REALLY wish what you said was true.

[ClarkUSA]

220. That's not proof the war is going on. It means that there are Shia assholes.

There is no longer any active combat mission taking place. Contact the Iraai embassy and have them tell you. Maliki himself hailed the end of the Iraq war last year. I'll believe him over you.

[Divernan]

207. Iraq War Rages On: Obama's Gates tells American Enterprise Institute US troops should remain

Anti-US Cleric rallies thousands of Iraqis against continued US occupation

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/7393001.html
Tens of thousands of supporters of anti-U.S. Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr held a parade on Thursday in east Baghdad to demand the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of 2011.

Dozens of groups of unarmed men wearing Iraqi flags marched in the thoroughfare of al-Fallah Street in the Shiite bastion of Sadr City district, as leaders of the groups of the parade were waving Iraqi flags or carrying placards saying "No, no, occupiers" and " No, no, America."

The reports details that the demonstration was in response to Secretary Gates' comments in a speech to the American Enterprise Institute.

"Two days ago, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said that he hopes the Iraqi government will ask U.S. troops to stay beyond the end of this year, when they are scheduled to pull out from the country.

" 'All I can say is that from the standpoint of Iraq's future but also our role in the region, I hope they figure out a way to ask ( for longer U.S. military presence)," he said at a conference at the American Enterprise Institute, a Washington-based think tank. 'And I think the United States will be willing to say yes when that time comes,' Gates added."
____________________________________________________

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/7399228.html
Eleven people were wounded in three bomb explosions in Baghdad on Thursday morning, an Interior Ministry source told Xinhua. In downtown Baghdad, a roadside bomb went off near a police patrol in an intersection in Bab al-Mu'adham area, damaging a police vehicle and wounding two policemen aboard, the source said on condition of anonymity.

Three civilians were also wounded by the blast, along with damaging several nearby civilian cars, the source said.

In a separate incident, a roadside bomb targeted a police patrol in al-Nidhal Street in Baghdad's central district of Karrada, wounding four passers-by, the source added. In western Baghdad, a roadside bomb ripped through Iskan neighborhood, wounding two civilians, he said.

The attacks are part of wave of attacks against Iraq's government officials, security forces and civilians during the past few months.
______________________________________________________________________________________
From "War News Today" website

You can click on links there to get details on every one of these attacks. The site also includes the many daily attacks and deaths of US forces in Afghanistan, but I'm focusing on Iraq here.
http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/

War News from Friday, June 3, 2011
Baghdad:
#1: Two persons were injured today by a sticky bomb in a civilian car to the northeast of Baghdad, security forces announced. The source informed Aswat al-Iraq that the sticky bomb exploded in a pick-up wagon, which resulted in injuring the two people inside it.


Kirkuk:
#1: A U.S. military patrol was attacked today by a hand grenade, security sources said. The source added that there were no casualties or damages reported in the attack.


Mosul:
#1: A roadside bomb exploded near a hospital, wounding four security guards in the city of Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, local police said.


Al Anbar Prv:
#1: The final toll from the four explosions that hit Ramadi city yesterday reached 7 dead and 18 wounded, Anbar security sources said today. The source said to Aswat al-Iraq that among the killed were four security forces. 11 of the wounded are military and police personnel. Four explosions hit the city yesterday, one in the main street no. 17, the second a car-bomb near a governmental complex. The last two explosions were near the Nationality Department and used two explosives. No other details were given.


War News from Thursday, June 2, 2011

Baghdad:
#1: In downtown Baghdad, a roadside bomb went off near a police patrol in an intersection in Bab al-Mu'adham area, damaging a police vehicle and wounding two policemen aboard, the source said on condition of anonymity. Three civilians were also wounded by the blast, along with damaging several nearby civilian cars, the source said.

#2: In a separate incident, a roadside bomb targeted a police patrol in al-Nidhal Street in Baghdad's central district of Karrada, wounding four passers-by, the source added.

#3: In western Baghdad, a roadside bomb ripped through Iskan neighborhood, wounding two civilians, he said.


Mussayab:
#1: Six people were killed and at least 11 wounded when a bomb exploded in a wedding party in al-Hamya village in Mussayab, 60 km (40 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.


Al Qurna:
#1: An unknown group attacked today a U.S. military convoy in Qurna with a grenade, U.S. forces source announced here today. No casualties were reported. The source told Aswat al-Iraq that the attack did not result in major damages. He added that the U.S. patrol did not return fire after the attack.


Basra:
#1: The Operations Command in southern Iraq’s Basra port-city has been attacked by three mortar shells on Wednesday, according to a security source in the Command, adding that the attack had caused no casualties. “Three mortar shells fell before noon today (Wednesday) on the building of Basra Operations Command in the center of the city, but caused no material or human losses,” the security source told Aswat al-Iraq news agency.


Irbil:
#1: Kurdish security forces dismantled a sticky bomb in a civilian car, as stated by Kurdistan Security Department today. The statement, as received by Aswat al-Iraq , added that the bomb was dismantled on Tuesday night on the main gate of the city on Arbil-Kirkuk road.


Al Anbar Prv:
#1: Unknown gunmen assassinated the Sheikh of Mahamda tribe, in the center of Falluja city, security sources said today. The source added to Aswat al-Iraq that Sheikh Hameed Ahmed was assassinated today, but the culprit ran away.


War News from Wednesday, June 1, 2011

Baghdad:
#1: A booby-trapped car parked near al-Sa'ah Restaurant in Baghdad' s western neighborhood of Mansour, went off at about 8:30 (0530 GMT) near the convoy of Abdul-Kareem Abdullah, Deputy Minister of Iraq Ministry of Human Rights, wounding two passers-by, the source said on condition of anonymity. Abdullah escaped unharmed the powerful blast which caused severe damages to nearby buildings and shops, the source said.

#2: In a separate incident, seven people were wounded when a roadside bomb went off in al-Nidhal Street in Baghdad's central district of Karrada, the source said.


Kut:
#1: A U.S. minesweeper has been damaged by an explosive charge that blew up against an American Army patrol in southern Iraq’s Nu’maniya township in Wassit Province on Wednesday, a Wassit police source said. “A U.S. Army’s minesweeper was set on fire and damaged, when an explosive charge blew up against an American Army patrol that was passing through Nu’maniya township, 40 km to the north of Kut on Wednesday,” the police source told Aswat al-Iraq news agency. There have not yet been any reports on any casualties, the source noted. He said the U.S. forces had beaten a number of police officers, who were at the venue of the blast when it took place, giving no further details.


Tikrit:
#1: Three brothers have been killed by unknown soldiers in north-central Iraq’s Province of Salahal-Din on Tuesday, according to a province’s police source. “Four armed men, using a civilian car, have attacked three brothers, working in a wheat field at Albu-Suleiby village of Al-Dhiloiya township, 92 km to the south of Tikrit, the center of Salahal-Din Province, killing the on the spot,” the source told Aswat al-Iraq news agency. He said the three brothers have been members of the pro-government al-Sahwa (Awakening) Forces and had fought al-Qaeda organization over the past few years.=

[ClarkUSA]

You're quoting a Chinese communist propaganda rag? lol! See Reply #221.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1215164&mesg_id=1222595

What's next? Pravda? :rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

234. You just don't get it, do you.

You can say "I'm not fighting" all you want, but if the other guy keeps pounding on you, you ARE in a fight.

If the US troops - 50,000 of them - in Iraq are not able to walk the streets as they do in, say, Germany, without getting shot at THEY ARE IN A WAR. No matter what you call it.

"The war is over in Iraq" is just as fallacious as "Mission Accomplished".

[ClarkUSA]

238. I disagree with your conclusion.

<< If the US troops - 50,000 of them - in Iraq are not able to walk the streets as they do in, say, Germany, without getting shot at THEY ARE IN A WAR. No matter what you call it. >>

Maybe to a civilian this is all the same to you, but being in an advisory role is totally different than fighting a war as a combat soldier. That Iran-backed Hezbollah-sympathizing Shia assholes and/or radical Sunni Al-Qaida sympathizers are continuing to take shots at US troops in Iraq is not proof that the US is at war with Iraq. There is a reason why over 100,000 combat troops have left Iraq: the war is over.

<< "The war is over in Iraq" is just as fallacious as "Mission Accomplished". >>

I disagree. Drawing down all combat troops (over 100,000 of them) is not something Bush II ever did. Getting Maliki and the inhabitants of Iraq to celebrate the war's end is something Pres. Obama did do when he ended the Iraq war last year. This is a fact that is fully documented.

"You just don't get it": you are certainly entitled to your opinion but saying "the Iraq war is not over" is not a fact.

[RaleighNCDUer]

240. Why don't you ask the guys who are DYING there if they are in a war? nt

[ClarkUSA]

241. Every soldier signed on to their job. Those in the military know that their CIC ended the Iraq war.

It's only some civilians who don't.

Furthermore, using dead soldiers to make a semantic point is distasteful to anyone who honors their sacrifice to the country they loved.

[RaleighNCDUer]

252. Whoa. Hold it. You're confusing me.

How can there be any dead soldiers is there is no war?

You know what is distasteful? Denigrating the service of those soldiers who are DYING in the ONGOING Iraq war by saying it is NOT a war.

[timtom]

29. "This site is for supporters of our democratic ideas"

Totally agree with that.

When we see our democratic ideas being supported by the White House, or any other government entity, we will all of us be here with bells and whistles, cheering progressive (or even democratic) leadership.

Illegal invasions and occupations of foreign lands is not a democratic idea.
Guantanamo perpetuation is not a democratic idea.
TSA is not a democratic idea.
Patriot Act and its extension are not democratic ideas.

[Divernan]

33. And don't forget that pesky right of habeas corpus

We had habeas corpus in the country when we were a British colony, for god's sake. One could well argue that we had more civil rights as colonists than under the Obama administration.

[SDuderstadt]

46. LOL!

One COULD argue that. And one would be wrong.

[chervilant]

121. Also,

denigrating teachers, destroying unions, and privatizing public education are NOT democratic ideas.

[ClarkUSA]

144. Prove your claims. Bullshit rhetoric is easy to spew, hard to prove, so get to it.

[chervilant]

163. Really, ClarkUSA?

Let's start with Obama's appointment of Arne Duncan. That's the first 'fault' I lay at his door. Consider that Obama is complicit in RTTT, which has been as bad or worse than NCLB. Review Mr. Obama's commitment to teachers and unions early in his campaign--does it match what he's currently doing to public education?

I would rather hold Mr. Obama in high regard, and not just because he's a Democrat. However, here is what I've said recently in another post:

For those who felt Obama would make manifest the hope and change he promised during his campaign, his lackluster and often antithetical performance is grounds for concern, if not criticism.

Obama's assault on our system of public education is reason enough for me to question his intent and his integrity. That is not only my RIGHT, it is my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen of this nation.

And, as a teacher, I can guarantee you that I possess the cognitive and deductive reasoning skills to ascertain when I'm being offered a plate full of red herrings.

In short, the radical income inequity threatening our great democracy can continue unabated if the Corporate Megalomaniacs succeed in destroying public education, thus insuring that critical thinking skills are a rare privilege reserved primarily for the fruit of their loins. Mr. Obama appears to be going along for this ride.

For much more regarding Obama's policies on education, please peruse any of madfloridian's myriad journal entries documenting this administration's assault on public education.

[ClarkUSA]

223. Really. BTW, that's not proof. It's simply more empty negative rhetoric.

[chervilant]

173. Also,

when Mr. Obama casually remarked that teachers are "resistant to change" when "things aren't working," he rather condescendingly denigrated those of us who have consistently advocated for improving public education. His cavalier attitude about our concerns is reprehensible, and he certainly doesn't help promote a healthier system of public education by alienating the multitude of intrepid souls whose daily efforts to teach are grounded in our love for our nation's children.

I could enumerate other reasons I am increasingly concerned with Mr. Obama and our politicians du jour--the health care debacle, the 'Commission to Strengthen Social Security,' our continued presence in Afghanistan, our furtive forays into Pakistan, our military actions in Libya, the extension of the Patriot Act, the fact that Bush and Cheney and their co-conspirators remain free and are unlikely to be charged with the war crimes they committed--but I hesitate to further inflame diehard Obama supporters.

[ClarkUSA]

227. More negative empty rhetoric. Is that all you have?

If so, don't waste anymore of my time.

[chervilant]

229. Indeed...

Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings.

[ClarkUSA]

230. lol! So you have nothing? I thought so.

“People will have the satisfaction of having a purist position and no victories for the American people,” he says. “And we will be able to feel good about ourselves and sanctimonious about how pure our intentions are and how tough we are, and in the meantime, the American people are still seeing themselves not being able to get health insurance because of preexisting conditions or not being able to pay their bills because their unemployment insurance ran out.”

Obama declares: “That can’t be the measure of how we think about our public service. That can’t be the measure of what it means to be a Democrat. This is a big, diverse country. Not everybody agrees with us."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2010/12/07/politico-obama-slams-liberal-complaints-against-him/

[chervilant]

245. hmm...

You just keep telling yourself that, wee mannie. Just keep selling your intractable assertions.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

50. I'm here to help take back the Democratic Party from Big Business.

[totodeinhere]

132. When you figure out how to do that please let me know. n/t

[bvar22]

65. Here are some "Democratic Ideas":

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

Americas own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.

For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.--FDR

Let me know when you hear anything like this from today's "New Democrat Centrist Party",
I'll join the parade.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will stand up for working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


"By their works you will know them."

[hifiguy]

81. Yep.

That is it, in a nutshell. When the party abandons the principles that guided it in terms of economics and domestic policy from the time of FDR through the time of LBJ, it is no longer the Democratic party I cast my lot with some forty years ago.

[Fuddnik]

92. Yiiiieeeee!!!!!! Commies!

+1111111 to infinity!

[truedelphi]

101. Thanks bvar. Having followed your posts for quite a while

I thought that you had put all these principles for the Democratic Party together yourself.

Then on reading the list carefully and noting the name at the end, why I see you had some help from FDR.

If FDR were ever to come back from the dead, every DLC person now running the show would be crapping their skivvies.

[bread_and_roses]

115. If even LBJ (against whom I marched) came back from the dead ...

... I cannot imagine LBJ, for all his faults, tolerating some of the quisling behavior toward the Rs that we see from Ds today.

"Hey hey LBJ, how many kids you kill today?"

"how many kids you kill today?" .... how unutterably sad that there's still such a timeliness to that.

[truedelphi]

66. It is not the fault of middle class Americans that the

Koch Brothers gave enough money to party insiders to create a DLC such that the worst of the Democratic Party is not very distinguishable from the worst of the Republicans.

When we have a President who allows for the protection of the Monsanto GM food crops, AGAINST AND OVER THE RULINGS OF THE HIGHER COURTS OF THE LAND, then you don't have a democracy.

Case closed.

[StarburstClock]

68. It's called "free speech" and expression of ideas

That all leads to answers.

[librechik]

90. Obama is a very good Republican president. Better than Clinton, almost. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

161. Yeah, that's why all the Republicans in Congress vote for every one of his policy ideas.

:sarcasm:

[librechik]

217. clearly not--they vote against him because they are much farther to the right

than any Republican ever was before 2008. Different set of republicans.

[Beavker]

91. Disagree

Supporting democratic ideas CAN be pointing out the flaws of, yes, even our own respected Democratic president.

[sulphurdunn]

103. Wrong on all counts.

This site is for democrats not a mutual admiration society of the Democratic Party. I know how you feel, but political loyalties should not suspend critical thinking. Sadly, our Democratic Party has become the other enforcer for the national big business protection rackets. Our discussions should revolve around what to do about that rather than to deny it or to make excuses for it.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trud]

118. madokie

Yeah, Obama did such a swell job selling the environment down the river in the budget bill. And he's done so much for it otherwise. Give me maybe two hours and I might be able to think of something, probably not, though.

[chervilant]

142. Well,

I would remind you and all those who dismiss Obama's dem detractors of the timeless words of the inimitable Teddy Roosevelt (and, it matters not that he was a Republican):

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

"This site is... ...not for bashing [Obama]."

You do know this was the Republican mantra when Bush was in office, don't you? I've always thought the best thing that separates Democratic Underground from websites like "Free Republic" is that the members aren't in lockstep with their party's puppet masters. I thought Democratic Underground stood for democratic ideals more than "my party, right or wrong."

[UnrepentantLiberal]

195. "This site is... ...not for bashing [Obama]."

You do know this was the Republican mantra when Bush was in office, don't you? I've always thought the best thing that separates Democratic Underground from websites like "Free Republic" is that the members aren't in lockstep with their party's puppet masters. I thought Democratic Underground stood for democratic ideals more than "my party, right or wrong."

[truth2power]

205. Unless Donna is a nom de plume for Mike Whitney, she didn't write the article...

Impossible to say if she agrees with every point in it.

Nevertheless, please tell me which of Obama's financial appointees or economic policies do NOT work out to be, essentially, "a protection racket for big business".

[pocoloco]

210. "very good Democratic President"

Looks like we owe * a big apology?

So the shit he did is OK as long as a Dem president does it?

[Luciferous]

2. K&R

[FiveGoodMen]

3. Sadly, I completely agree.

[leveymg]

4. At least the Russians thought they had an alternative and a set of solutions until Larry Summers

arrived.

Same set of crisis managers, same outcomes. Who would have thought?

Duh . . .

Prepare to be restructured. Don't say you didn't receive plenty of advance notice.

[pnorman]

7. I'llhave to save that image!

Never tell when it'll come in handy!

[leveymg]

8. Party, like it's 1999!

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ocean girl]

5. This is excellent

This is the first article I read this morning and it woke me up - in every way.

Just enjoy your friends and family because that's the only way to have a happy life these days!

[DrDan]

11. put my feeling into words - well said

[Godhumor]

15. Pure unmitigated, unsubstantiated BS in that link

And it shows a complete lack of understanding about cultural and historical comparisons.

It is strange that this is the second time I have seen either the US or a city in the US compared with utter disasters as far as collapsed/collapsing countries go. The collapse of the soviet union was nothing like the situation we have now, nothing.

[dixiegrrrrl]

22. "The collapse of the soviet union was nothing like the situation we have now, nothing."

Exactly.


when our collapse comes, we will be less able to deal with it,
while the Soviets had many advantages over us.

Dimitry Orlov made a now famous comparison chart.showing the differences between the 2 countries in a collapse scenario:( keeping mind the Soviet Union had collapsed)

One example, under housing:


In the Soviet Union, all housing belonged to the government, which made it available directly to the people. Since all housing was also built by the government, it was only built in places that the government could service using public transportation. After the collapse, almost everyone managed to keep their place.

In the United States, very few people own their place of residence free and clear, and even they need an income to pay real estate taxes. People without an income face homelessness. When the economy collapses, very few people will continue to have an income, so homelessness will become rampant. Add to that the car-dependent nature of most suburbs, and what you will get is mass migrations of homeless people toward city centers.

go here for the side by side comparison charts"
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

Kunstler has talked about exactly the same thing, paraphrasing Orlov.

edited for sentence structure

[Divernan]

25. There you go again Dixiegrrrl, with the hard facts! Thank you!

[Godhumor]

30. Hard facts? The person she linked to posts a rosey picture of the SU after collapse. And then

Speculates about a collapse in the US. This is one man's opinion, nothing more.

[ProfessorGAC]

197. Except There Were No Facts

The entire thing was a comparison of an actual event to a hypothetical. So, the comparison is not factual and it's rife with supposition and opinion.
GAC

[Godhumor]

26. Except, the Soviet collapse actually happened and we have no parallels between the US now and the SU

In the days, months, hell, even years before the collapse. Different government structure, different economic structure, different time and different world. There is no way to accurately compare the failed Soviet model to the current status of the US. It is a fallacy and cheapens what the people of the SU actually went through when the collapse came.

[dixiegrrrrl]

31. "There is no way to accurately compare the failed Soviet model to the current status of the US."

Gee, the link I shared says the opposite,
that there is a way to compare, and the comparisons are listed and discussed,
in easy to see and grasp chart form.
Which is why so many people took Orlov seriously.

I assume you read it carefully, as I did.

What actual facts in the link, comparing the reasons for the collapse, are you disagreeing with?

[Godhumor]

34. It is one man's presentation from 2006, nothing more

Comparing an incredibly idealized version of Russia following the collapse of the SU (Nevermind the coup attempt, the wars, the hyperinflation, the rampant homelessness as those government houses were reclaimed, etc, etc) and then tries to justify comparing it to a hypothetical future in the US.

And his parallels between the Soviet Union before the collapse and the US of 2006 were sorely lacking, too. It is a false equivalency, pure and simple.

[dixiegrrrrl]

42. As you say, " one man's opinion, nothing more"

Have a nice day.

[Godhumor]

44. Will do. Considering we're not about to collapse as a country, I think I'll truly enjoy it. n/t

[leveymg]

41. Tell that to the people of Detroit. . . cheezitz.

[Godhumor]

43. What about Detroit? i have relatives there. Even with the downturn it does not compare to the SU

It just doesn't.

[leveymg]

47. I was just there 2 months ago. What about Detroit? Here's the big picture:

[Godhumor]

48. Ooh, it's like the South Korea picture thread!

Yes, Detroit has been hit by the economic downturn but it is incomprehensible to compare it to a collapsed country. Not even in the same league.

[leveymg]

49. You call that a downturn! Like the truck was crushed by the I-75 bridge as it downturned!

It may be incomprehensible to you, but I suspect a lot of things are. Wow! What a masterpiece of understatement, if not evidence of clinical-strength denial.

"Not even in the same league." - What facts do you base that trite observation on?

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BobbyBoring]

86. 1 HUGE parallel

Afghanistan.

[lapislzi]

58. Those pesky land wars in Asia

Will trip you up every time, mark my words.

[DeadEyeDyck]

138. the culture had a much greater tanacity than we have now

Life in the USSR was pretty tough before the collapse. I lived in W. Germany when the wall opened. E. Germans had lived a pretty harsh life, similar to the Soviets. For them, the collapse of the government was a liberating event. Anarchy was better. We are much softer and the event, if it comes will be a greater challenge. Now is not a bad time to stock up on some canned goods to fill the gaps.

[sabrina 1]

63. How about we compare it to Argentina then? Same players,

same 'saviors' etc. The people of Argentina have tried to warn us. I think it would help you if you were to do some research on what happened to Argentina. And how ALL of their politicians, from all sides of the spectrum eventually were coopted. There is a SYSTEM in place.

The similarities between what happened in that country and what is now happening here are chilling. We better make the comparisons before the end of the story is also the same as theirs.

Hiding one's head in the sand is not a solution. This country is far more important than the careers or reputations of politicians, unless they ARE working for us. But check out 'Argentina's Economic Collapse' you can now get it on Utube, along with 'The Take' both documentaries that should be required viewing for all Americans.

[BobbyBoring]

83. Oh really??

The Soviet Union was destroyed as a result of staying in a war they could not win in Afghanistan. A proxy war that we fought through the Holy Warriors. Don't think for a minute that the people we are fighting in 3 wars are not getting help from another nation or 2.

If the money that had been spent on these wars was back in our economy, we would be in good shape.

[tjwash]

19. Jeez...another DU "end of the world" thread. Didn't we just do this a couple of weeks ago?

nt

[Lex]

24. Same as it ever was. I've been here 10 years

and it's just part of this place--people venting and spreading cheer.

[Swede]

36. It's almost every fucking day now.

We're in a recession going on 3 years,it's not the end of the world for fuck sake.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xphile]

222. Your lack of concern for those faring worse off duly noted.

And I might add damn disgusting.

Your shallow understanding of what is going on is so very clearly shown by the self absorbed nature of your post.

[StarburstClock]

71. So what is wrong in the article?

No mention of the entire thing huh? Complaining about "end-o-worlders" is an old republican tactic especially when used as a distraction.

[U4ikLefty]

153. Not the world, just America.

we're nothing special anymore...except militarily.

[Peacetrain]

32. There is an old chestnut about market economies.. "sell in May and go away"

People panic just about every summer.. markets sell off and predictions of doom and gloom abound.

Now every few years that predictions comes true.. just like a stopped clock.. but no the United States is not the Soviet Union..nor are we in any where near the economic stress they were.

I am not scared of an economic collapse.. I am much more concerned about the unemployed underclass and the difficulty in finding jobs in areas where people would like to stay..

One of the huge issues with unemployment in deprived areas is that there is no employers for people to get jobs from.

We need to move companies back into cities.. Now that would be a good use of economic stimulus

[Divernan]

35. What companies? The ones who outsourced to India, China, Mexico, etc.?

We are not experiencing a predictable economic cycle. We are experiencing the end of US domination of the world's economy. Our formerly US companies are now international in focus and will never minimize their profits to benefit American society. India and China are investing in non-military, non-warlike activities around the world to further their own economic influence & standing at the international level.

[Peacetrain]

37. You make some very very good points.. this whole police man to the world

scenario, has got to end. As far as manufacturing.. believe it or not.. we still lead in the world.. it is not China or India
But the military is the thing that is sucking us dry.. We can blow this planet up 20 times..
We have to share with the rest of the world...the worlds resources.. and we have to wake up to that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. Yeah - we still lead the world in manufacturing

of weapons.

Take the MIC out of the picture and it is pretty fucking bleak.

Look around your house (if you are lucky enough to have one) or apartment and see what was manufactured in the US - I assume you don't have any Stingers in you kitchen, or a Patriot battery parked in your driveway.

Clothes, kitchen appliances, consumer electronics, toys - you'd be hard pressed to find ANY from the US. Furniture, maybe, but that too is going overseas - even here in NC, a huge furniture manufacturer, shops are closing down and more stuff in the stores is from Indonesia.

We still lead in heavy equipment - tractors and such - but our competitors are quickly catching up as our plants close.

We need to completely re-work ALL these globalist trade agreements, and tax the crap out of US companies who send their manufacturing overseas. They only do it for the cheap labor, so if we make the cost of it too high, they will keep their plants open here, when WE can use the jobs.

Of course, as a socialist I believe we should institute a correlation between salaries of CEOs and workers, such as making it illegal to compensate a CEO more than 5x the average salary, and no more than 10x the lowest hourly wage in the company. If he wants a pay increase, EVERYBODY gets a pay increase. Any compensation beyond that should be in company shares, if that is warranted, so their pay can only increase if they do a good job. I know that will never happen - but I can dream.

Predatory capitalism is undermining our democracy, and the militarism is only the mechanism to keep the failing system going. We can't fix the militarism without first fixing the systemic problems.

[marions ghost]

59. right

:thumbsup:

[libmom74]

72. I totally agree!

[shanti]

55. thank you very much

what part of "the jobs just aren't there anymore" do people find hard to believe? :shrug:

[emcguffie]

56. I am one of those people who is now poor.

I wasn't always poor. I had a good job that paid well. Then I got sick with a chronic illness, and was put on disability. Now I cannot pay my monthly bills. The utilities have been turned off about four times. I have a child in high school and wonder what will happen if we end up homeless.

My health insurance provider decided that they didn't approve of my doctor's treatment of my disease and stopped paying him, so I can no longer see him. Doctors that know how to treat the illness I have -- chronic fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome, AKA myalgic encephalomyelitis, AKA the ridiculous name chronic fatigue syndrome -- are few and far between. My daughter has the same illness. But that illness problem is another story altogether....

I'm 58, and unless I can find a new career that I can handle, and a job, which is a rather big "if", I guess I will be poor for the rest of my life.

[hifiguy]

39. Thanks for the link

to an excellent and brutally truthful article. Hadn't been over to Smirking Chimp for a while.

[Odin2005]

51. IMO a far better comparison is with the end of the Roman Republic.

[Divernan]

194. We have the circuses but are running damn low on bread!

All of the escapist teevee shows - non-reality "reality" shows - Real Housewives, game shows, American Idol, and on and on, continue and enlarge the dumbing down/numbing down of the American public. Then we have the ever expanding, mob related gambling industry - where mathematically, mal-educated place their final hope of hitting big and escaping poverty.

[Ganja Ninja]

54. For the past few weeks I've been riding to work with my boss to save gas money.

His radio listening choices are 1. Country Music and 2. Right Wing News/Talk.

After only 3 weeks I'm convinced we are fucked! It's no wonder the country is so fucked up. The stupid that comes out of the mouths of their talking heads is non-stop. I honestly don't know how much more I can take.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Just another might have been with a one way ticket to Palookaville.

As empires go, we're a bit of a flash in the pan.

[kentuck]

60. Unless we face reality...

that is the direction we are headed. We have to tell the truth about where we are and why we are there. We cannot continue to let the Republicans pretend to be spectators and that they had nothing to do with the present predicament we face. We have to tell the truth. There is no other way. If it hurts their feelings and is not "bipartisan" enough, then tough shit.

[xchrom]

62. recommend

[StarburstClock]

69. This article nails it, it's exactly what's going on

Thanks for posting it. Rec'd.

[ProSense]

73. So

<...>

And just look at Washington. What a joke. The White House is just a protection racket for big business. And Congress, well, what can you say about congress? We'd be better off if they just packed their bags and went home for all the good they do. Then at least we could turn the House of Representatives into a homeless shelter or something that had some practical value for people. At any rate, we wouldn't have to listen to the bloviating of numbskulls like Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid anymore. That's got to be worth something.

<...>

...is the point of the article: get rid of government?

I mean, was this America during the Internment, the Vietnam War, the Reagan years, Bush's eight years? Yeah, there are times when it's unrecognizable, but it's still the U.S. People still have the right to vote, and they did in 2010. Americans voted beyond Washington, and the results weren't pretty (see Florida, Ohio, Maine and Wisconsin). The article merely demonizes the entire federal government, lumping Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid into one. It criticizes the entire federal government to declare the U.S. over:

America's lost its way. Sooner or later we going to wind up in the same dustbin as the Soviet Union.

Thanks for sharing, but hogwash!

Point is, the U.S. isn't near collapse, anymore than the world is near Rapture.

[Skidmore]

75. Oh, for crying out loud.

It's time to quit whining and actually DO something like develop alternative systems that cannot be sunk by a corrupt congress.

[LetTimmySmoke]

76. I've been saying for a while that both superpowers lost the cold war.

It's just that our fall is taking a bit longer than theirs.

[Shagbark Hickory]

78. If we legalize the production and consumption of marijuana as well as legalize prostitution, we can

probably create some more jobs.
And at least part of that will keep our politicians happy so long as their wives don't find out.

[leftstreet]

80. K&R

[JoePhilly]

84. Ahhhh ... I must run sceaming into the woods!!!!

I love this paragraph ...

"Have you looked around lately? Have you noticed the women at the grocery store who keep their head's down at the checkout stand while they load the boxes of mac n' cheese onto the conveyor-belt hoping like Hell that one of their credit cards will be accepted? Have you noticed that there are more kids at school showing up like ragamuffins and piling into the cafeteria for a free lunch."

Is this idiot SERIOUS?

"Women" (why dos this idiot say it is only women??) are embarrassed about buying Mac and Cheese.

This author is a joke.

[zalinda]

98. I guess you haven't looked around much

For the most part, the kids stay with the mom. And whether, the father booked, doesn't care, can't get a job or was killed, she shoulders the bills. The facts are there, more and more people are on food stamps, and yes, the majority of them are women, who still also get paid less than a man.

zalinda

[Taverner]

85. Everything Mike Whitney says is true except the title of the post

Our goose is not, as he said, cooked. And here is why:

Yes, there is no lending going on, and there is a huge cloud of "toxic" debt floating around. That's irrelevant, really. Why? Banks are going to continue merging and merging until we are left with one or two. I worked at BofA migrating systems from Merrill Lynch, etc. This is going to continue for some time. While its happening, and money is moving, small crumbs will fall. Not enough to repair the economy, but enough to keep in on life support. Smaller local banks will either use the big banks for lending, or take small risks themselves. Money moves, crumbs drop.

Since our plan to save the economy is this:______________________________, there will be no growth, and eventually foreign countries will move to a standard currency other than the dollar. We lost that one, thank Bush for that.

"How does this prove our goose isn't cooked?" you might ask. Everything I said points to it being cooked.

We get one get out of jail free card, and it is that we only have to pay our National debt in dollars. Future loans will not have this provision, and we'll be on much shakier ground. But we will get that one get out of jail free card, and should we play it, inflation like Argentina.

Argentina still exists, its not very fun, but it does exist.

So will we.

The USSR as it was in 1990 was completely unsustainable. The USA today is sustainable. There's the difference.

Don't get me wrong, it will be no party. It won't be fun with money worth less than the paper it's printed on. We are in the process of changing from a First World to a Third World Nation. Some say we're already there.

But the government of the USA? It will still stand, and will continue to do so as long as it downsizes its military. Should it choose not to do so, then yes, our goose is cooked. There's no way we can afford the military budget of today. You can see this in the scaling down of NASA. Let us hope we start doing this soon.

So I agree with him, sort-of, I guess. We're at that point where the USSR was in the late 80s. Held together with duct tape and chicken wire, and if we don't start changing drastically, we'll go to the dustbin.

[RaleighNCDUer]

253. But what makes you think the military will relinquish its power?

I can see the military, OTOH, stepping up to 'save' the country, and then we will BE Argentina, and I, for one, don't look forward to that helicopter ride over the ocean.

We are being set up for it now - the Patriot act, the militarization of the police, the constant playing on fear (which I really had hoped would end when Bush left office).

That bird ain't cooked - it is a damn near unrecognizable charred mass.

[Starry Messenger]

87. k&r

[TrollBuster9090]

88. I can't decide if the U.S. is Russia right before or right AFTER the collapse of the Soviet Union.

But maybe Obama is the alagorical Gorbachev. The rest of the world loves him, but only some of the people in his own country do, while a small faction of dead enders from the old regime hate his guts, and will probably attempt a coup of some sort. Then, after the coup fails, we'll get Dennis Kuchinic (ie-Yeltsin).


But an empire that's about to collapse is always an ugly thing. Britain seems to have come out of it okay, and re-invented itself, but it took a long, PAINFUL fourty years to do it! And somewhere between 1950 (old Britain) and 1990 (new Britain)they did that ridiculous "last ghasp of the empire" thing, where they went to war with Argentina over the Falklands. Some stupid tin-pot egotist in Argentina (Jorge Anaya) thought it would be great to invade the Falklands as a way of revitilizing Argentine nationalism, and another tin-pot egotist in Britain (Thatcher) thought it would be great to kick the crap out of a pathetic developing country as a way of revitilizing British nationalism, and a lot of people ended up getting killed for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.

So, my warning would be this:
The U.S. is about to make the transition from an EMPIRE to just another country that leads by example rather than by bullying. BEWARE of politicians who want to re-vitalize the empire (ie-Thatchers), and EMBRACE politicians who are dedicated to making the transition go smoothly (ie-Tony Blairs, although he's obviously not the best example)! And if we're lucky, we've seen the worst of it...and IRAQ was our bigger/stupider version of Britain's Falklands war. And now we can settle down and concentrate on converting our empirial war-time economy into an efficient peace time economy. Japan did it. Germany did it. France did it. Italy did it. Britain did it. Let this be our challenge. To see if we can do it as well as they did, with fewer bumps.

[Kablooie]

93. Everyone's looking at it the wrong way. Things are actually great!

Just ask the top CEO's.
Everything is rosy and everyone's getting richer than they've ever been in their lives!

Life is GREAT!

...

See? You're just looking at the wrong side of things.

[mckara]

95. Welcome to the 1890s!!!!

Clearly, our trajectory is downhill with both parties in the pockets of corporate interests. We can save the American Dream by awakening the electorate and electing true progressives. Remember, Americans, as a body politic, are incredibly stupid, and their lives must become painful before we can expect to see an awakening. Many of us knew that George W. would be a disastrous president, the people realized it 7 years later, but have yet to realize that the Republicans have been destroying the middle-class since the 1980s. It is our job to enlighten low-information voters and reverse accepted political assumptions. The Ryan Plan was a gift to progressives as it forced seniors, and middle-aged people, to see the Republican game-plan without equivocation. Young voters are realizing that Republicans are destroying theirs futures. History demonstrated that corporate power can be limited at the ballot box. A tipping point is approaching. We must continue working towards our goals, and eventually, the American people will join us!

[WinkyDink]

107. We could raise the tax upper limit on the top 1% to start. Pare the Defense budget secondly.

There. Done.

[angrychair]

108. Not sure I should laugh or shake my head in shame

at the fear-mongering and horn blowing going on from so many of these posts. There are so many things I would like to say but I'll try to keep this short as possible. First, this "new bill of rights" thing posted up-thread, that talks about everyone having a right to a good job and a good house and so on is not only disturbing it is shocking. No one has the right to a good job, you have to earn it. Once you earn, you have to keep earning it every day. You don't have a right to a good house, you have earn it. I don't mean by being a wage slave or by selling your soul and values kind of 'earn it' either. A good education, determination, hard work and self respect (or any combination of 2 more of these items) go a long way to getting the things you want. Trying to keep it short so I'll end that subject there.
Second, The whole country is going to hell and nothing we can do about it. What bullshit. Just like most rethugs, some of you have here at DU tend to get focused on your own agenda and loss perspective and go all "chicken little" on everyone. I can list a dozen times, just off the top of my barely educated head, that people would not have bet 2 cents that our country would last even one more year but we did.The post-revolution U.S. for the first years through the 2nd Constitutional Congress holds at 3 or more of them. The War of 1812 is a good example. The Civil War is another great example. The dust bowl era and the Great Depression are two other great examples. I could go on but I've made my point. Any one of these are extreme examples of unimaginable hardship and not just pulling but ripping at the very fabric of what our nation is and what holds it together. All this SU stuff and unemployment numbers in middle America are not even in the same league. All of the events mentioned above truly brought our country to the edge of the cliff and tested our right to exist as a country.
What we having been experiencing of the last couple of years have been tough and really hard on a lot of people but it isn't anything we can not recover from and nothing as hard as we have already faced. Unemployment is not that bad where I live and isn't all that bad in many areas of the country. A lot depends on where you live and your level of education and experience. Is it tough in a lot of the mid-west, yes, but don't get tunnel vision. Burned out trucks and empty, broken down buildings are not the norm across the country. Yes, there is a little of that everywhere but there always has been. Just because there are earthquakes and floods doesn't mean the world is ending...just means the earth is moving and things are wet. Sometimes it is just that simple.

[WiffenPoof]

133. Well..Indeed, It Is Easy...

...to point out moments in our history that were incredible challenges to our county's existence. What I believe you are missing is that the issues facing our country today strike at the very core of what America stands for. If you cannot see that the very "concept" of our country is under attack unlike anytime in the past, you need to do more research.

-PLA

[angrychair]

209. It always seems that way the people experiencing it

but it doesn't make it a "attack unlike anytime in the past"...as an example, during the Cold War when we were teaching our children to climb under their desk when the reds dropped the bomb on us...people were digging bunkers in their back yard and everyone thought their days were numbered... it was only a matter of time before mushroom clouds were everywhere....a challenge like none before in history! Yet history has shown us that it ended not with a bang (think mushroom cloud) but a whimper (aka no WWIII).
I also clearly stated that these were serious times that were effecting alot of people but not impossible times and not the end of the world. We have worked through much harder times than this...World War 1 was the "War to end all Wars" tens of millions died worldwide. It was truly, by ANY standard, a horrible time in history, maybe the worst or at least in the top 5 but again, we worked hard, resolved our issues (for the most part) and the world moved on. Nothing gets solved by covering your end in ash and wailing about the "end is near"...if human history and the history of our nation has shown us anything, we can work through and overcome anything we put our mind to resolve.

[RaleighNCDUer]

243. Let's look at your examples:

Cold War: The REAL danger was not the Reds dropping bombs on us - it was the fear engendered in the American public by the right. McCarthyism. The abandonment of our liberties and our principles for fear of a faceless enemy. Rational people did NOT believe we were going to have a full scale nuclear exchange with the soviets. But it was a time of repression and fear, where the people of the US began to fear our government.

WWl - the 'war to end all wars'. That was NO threat to the US at all. We lost something like 90,000 in combat - it was horrific - but other than the Espionage Act of 1917 (with its amendments in 1918) there was nothing in that war that threatened the fundamentals of our democracy. BTW, the 20 million killed in WW1 pales against the 65 million killed in WW2.

Today, with far less threat against us, we are losing our democracy at an astonishing rate - the Patriot Act, the renewal of it with the reported secret Patriot act provisions; the dismantling of public education; the militarization of the police; the rampant xenophobia; the illegal wars - these are threats we have NEVER faced before. Is it THE END? Of course not - something will be here, no matter what happens. But the potential is there that the United States of America, as exemplified by its constitution, not its land mass, will not survive. Our democracy is what's at stake here. And if the democracy goes, the nation will fall, splinter, and cease to exist.

These are dangerous times, but the dangers don't come from Al Queda, or China, or ANY outside source. The danger comes from that neighbor of yours who is being told it is ok to shoot you if you disagree with him - replayed a million times across the country.

[Horse with no Name]

251. +1000

As a country we could handle 3-4 of these issues without much harm--the problem is the massive shitstorm (by design, I believe) where we can't fight back.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

178. Well, when you weren't looking (visibility is pretty limited on that high horse you are astride)

LOTS of people who got educations, worked hard and played by the rules got sold out to the lowest bidder for their jobs in Asia.

This isn't a matter of maintaining a good work ethic anymore, it is a matter of a global economy that we inherently are out of the loop on.

Our function in this new economy is to be good consumers. Most of the jobs that we have lost are good paying technical jobs that have been replaced with low paying service jobs.

When we equalize the job market with the consumer market--consumerism is going to steadily continue to go down--taking the menial service jobs with them. In other words,we will eventually even lose our place as consumers.

We are in a freefall collapse. How low can we go? Who knows.

But I know one thing--you are very ill-informed on what is going on in this country right here and right now--unless of course you live on a steady diet of rush/glenn et al--then it is just the lazy Americans that are whining about the economy. The rest of the country is fine. They can sell that pablum to those that aren't willing to admit that they aren't doing well. Personally though--I think the folks that have bothered to educate themselves about trends aren't going to believe the shit you are selling.

[angrychair]

211. I cannot abide the "doom and gloom"

you are selling.Is it a globial economy and is it tough? Yes. Is it impossible? No. You only have to reference the industrial revolution to get a perspecitive on how hard change like this can be for a society. That change was necessary for us and the rest of the world to evolve and progress but it didn't make it any less painful. Far more good came from it than bad. Would those that suffered and experienced the negative side of it think so...likely not...doesn't make it any less true for most of society though.

[Horse with no Name]

215. Dude I have a minor in History. What you are doing is abetting the RW

propaganda and revisionist history that they are peddling to the idiots that will listen. There is no comparison in OUR history that can be applied--even existentially because at no other time have all of the factors been the same. NEVER. Even comparing to the other countries is difficult because we simultaneously have financial institutions in peril, record unemployment, housing collapse, loss of our manufacturing base, corporations making more money than they ever have in history and NONE of the profits being put back into the economy--they are still laying off and cutting jobs, a record number of Americans that are without health insurance, a record number of Americans who HAVE health insurance but cannot afford to use it,in addition to wars being fought on THREE fronts at one time. We have also seen a collapse of the Fourth Estate.

There is more money being laundered to the top through politicians in order to attain more of the money floating around at the bottom. Our elections are being bought and sold...yet we are concerned about politicians twittering and flittering their dicks instead of real issues that concern us all.

We also have a subset of Americans trying to force an extreme social agenda down our throats as well as a radical Christian agenda being played out.

NEVER in the history of OUR country have these forces joined together at one time to create the unique situation that we are finding ourselves in. Various combinations have happened in other countries,but nothing like we have seen.

And certainly comparing this to the Industrial Revolution is ridiculous and it is intended to sell the meme that "we've been here before and recovered" when we most certainly have not been in these waters before.

I would suggest you pick up a history book and start looking...because if you really want to start comparing, the history of Mexico might be a little more suitable comparison to what we are experiencing than our own meager history.

Mexico is a very wealthy country where all of the money is in the hands of the top 2%, it has no social safety net as well as an agricultural base that has been decimated. Unemployment is high--there are NO jobs. You only need to listen to RW radio to realize that people are leaving their country because they cannot find jobs and there aren't food stamps or unemployment to feed their families.

But seriously, your "bootstrappy" attitude is offensive, because the circumstances do not exist in our country anymore that there are jobs for anyone that wants one...because there aren't.

[girl gone mad]

190. Every citizen who wants to work and is capable of working..

should have access to gainful employment.

This isn't brain surgery, not sure why you can't grasp the concept.

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ya Tzarone]

109. K&R, with sadness

[WillyT]

117. Yep... K & R !!!

:kick:

[DCBob]

120. Yeah, it was so much better under the Bush regime..

:eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

255. ...when things were so different. nt

[DeSwiss]

125. Yes. Yes, it is.

Funny how when disaster is about to strike people begin to wake up, isn't it?

K&R

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

141. Could you please back this up?

Less than 400 people worldwide own and control better than 45% of the world's resources, and a third of those people are from the United States!!

[chervilant]

151. hmm...

Google is a great opportunity to explore the resources that I've spent the last two years perusing. Since, Mr. Obama has been complicit in RIFing so many of our librarians, perhaps you need an assist with online research?

1) 07/16/96: REPORT SEES GROWING GAP BETWEEN RICH AND POOR NATIONS (89 countries worse off than a decade ago, U.N. says) (1515) By Jon Schaffer, USIA Staff Writer

2) June 5, 2007, 12:32 PM ET.Why Richistan? Why Now? By Robert Frank

3) Forbes' 'Richest' lists.

This is a start. I have beaucoups more, but I think you should do your own work, and compile the numbers.

[SDuderstadt]

154. It's YOUR claim!

YOU back it up!

I don't think you can.

[chervilant]

155. So,

And, I don't think you can refute this. The information is available to all of us. All you have to do is crunch the numbers. Why do you find this statistic so difficult to believe?

[SDuderstadt]

167. Because your numbers make no sense...

and you haven't remotely proven your claim.

All you do is keep trying to shift the burden of proof.

[SDuderstadt]

171. Here's your refutation

According to a United Nations study from 2006, the total wealth of the world is $125T. According to the same study, the top 1% own 40 % of that wealth.

The population of the world is 6,922,434,780. 1% of that number is 69,224,348, not 400. You're off by 69,223,948. If your claim were remotely true, the population of the world would only be 40,000. Math is not your strong suit. Trust me.

http://guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/06/business.internationalnews?cat=money&type=article

[RaleighNCDUer]

254. Resources. Not Wealth. Try again. nt

[chervilant]

158. Here is more

of my personal research:

The members of the Global Oligarchy are few in number (less the 370), yet they own and control more than 45% of the world's resources, including human resources.

The top 400 richest people are from Australia, Austria, Bahama, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Chile, China, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, England, Egypt, France, Germany, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Japan, Kazakhstan, Korea (South), Kuwait, Lebanon, Malaysia, Mexico, Monaco, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela.

Despite the geographic diversity of the uber wealthy, their common socioeconomic status renders each a member of Richistan, whose citizenry enjoy the rarest of comestibles, the finest accommodations, the most expensive trinkets, and the most richly appointed, exclusive residences. Denizens of Richistan travel in private jets, yachts, and limos; and they NEVER discuss their wealth.

Fully one-third of the wealthiest 400 are from the United States. Almost half of the 50 wealthiest people are from the United States. (Bill Gates was toppled from his rarefied status as the richest person on the planet in March of 2010; replaced by Mexican mogul Carlos Slim Helu.)

When you contemplate this radical income inequity, dear reader, please understand viscerally, that you are NOT a member of this exclusive club, nor are you likely to EVER be. You are an insignificant member of the vast hoi polloi. The denizens of Richistan comprise a mere 5.8 X 10^(-10)% of our planet's population. For those of you who are math challenged, that number is 0.00000000058% You are more likely to win the lottery than join the ranks of the Wealthy Elite.

We the People (globally) must STOP snarfing the wealth carrot meme. Raising awareness about radical income inequity is merely the first step in our species' choosing a different evolutionary path.

Also, bear in mind that I am talking about UBER wealth. Millionaires are NOT members of this exclusive club. Please, do the research yourself. I am in the process of gathering this data for multiple reasons, not the least of which is to inform my advocacy for our species.

[SDuderstadt]

168. "please do the research yourself"

No. It's YOUR claim! YOU do the research.

Let's see your numbers.

[harun]

129. It's been this way for some years now. People are just noticing now.

[DeSwiss]

136. Exactly.

Perfect timing. We've been weaned on movies where the hero comes and saves the day at the last minute and so we wait patiently for someone to come and "fix" things with just one more bill, one more law. Only it's the lawyers who are cheering when a new law is passed. They know that at least they'll get richer from the effort.

And we elect our new heroes -- the ones who tell us the lies we want to hear, knowing full well they will betray us like all the others. But still we wait -- wait for the calvary to show up and kick some righteous ass on our behalf so that all things can be made right once again. As if it ever was.

Well those memes have served their purposes for TPTB. They lulled us into becoming the willing participants in this farce and all we've got left now are empty McMansions for sale everywhere in the suburbias that are now too far away for our gas-guzzling cars to get us to the few jobs we have left. We do have plenty of homeless people though. In the parks they're now closing in each state, and under the underpasses on the highwaya that lead us to those tracts of empty houses found almost everywhere one goes.

And still, as one can see from some of the comments of denial above, some still refuse to acknowledge reality. They know things aren't right, they just don't know what to do.

- So they keep doing what they did yesterday.....

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where
the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery..." ~Frank Zappa

[chervilant]

130. Sad, really,

the vast numbers of our purported brethren who believe there is no 'hidden agenda' and who deny the increasingly detrimental consequences of global overpopulation (eg, global climate change, heavy metal pollution of our water supplies, vast floating masses of plastic waste in both the Pacific and the Atlantic, numerous Superfund Sites in the US, air pollution over every metropolis worldwide, BP's mess in the Gulf, the Fukushima disaster, mercury contamination of every food fish in the ocean, ongoing disappearances of entire hives of honeybees, radical income inequity...need I go on?!?)

As frightening as it may be to face all these threats, it is inconceivable to me to deny their import.

[ClarkUSA]

147. Is this the same Smirking Chimp who cheered on DLC Hillary during 2008 & then turned into a PUMA?

Why, I believe it is.

How does Smirking Chimp, who loudly supported a DLC Royal who posed proudly for a Business Week cover come off spewing such self-righteous bullshit rhetoric about President Obama?

Once a PUMA, always a PUMA. :puke:

[Juche]

159. To be fair, Russia bounced back

After a while. After the period of massive economic desolation and organized crime, they eventually recovered. According to dr. wikipedia income increased 800% from $80 to $640/month from 1999 to 2007. So even though the USSR collapsed, and life sucked for a while, things got a lot better economically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia#Recovery

Also Putin took on the plutocrats.

[girl gone mad]

191. Russian friends tell me..

Putin remains popular because he managed to keep the robber barons at bay to some extent. There is no indication that Obama would do the same.

[Vehl]

165. the main cause of this sorry state are the religious fundies and the MIC

The MIC wants to make money at any cost..and they use the idiotic ideas of religious/conservative fundies to the fullest...preying on their fears to start and maintain wars..thereby siphoning off trillions.

Unless this travesty is stopped...the results are too scary to even think about :(

[chervilant]

169. hmm...

"Obama is raising more than his opponents from executives of some of the corporate interests he criticizes. Obama has received more money from people who work at pharmaceutical and health product companies, according to the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics. He's taken in $528,765 through February, compared with $506,001 for Clinton and $139,400 for McCain, despite saying last July that "I don't take pharma money."

Ken Dilanian, USA TODAY

"Obama has been raising campaign cash for two political pots -- Obama 2010 Inc., his Senate re-election committee, and the Hopefund, another war chest. Obama, until his recent conversion on the eve of his presidential run, took more than $1 million from political action committees."

SourceWatch

"BP and its employees have given more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Donations come from a mix of employees and the company’s political action committees — $2.89 million flowed to campaigns from BP-related PACs and about $638,000 came from individuals."

www.politico.com


The Corporate Megalomaniacs who've usurped our government have a vested interest in keeping us (the Hoi Polloi) deluded, divided and divisive. Now, we could argue about 'where Obama got financial support' and 'who is the master he truly serves' until the cows come home (and the above information is a mere smattering of the available data), but the fact remains that a growing number of Obama supporters are criticizing his performance. And, in the words of the inimitable Teddy Roosevelt:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

[GETPLANING]

175. Unfortunately, after the USSR collapsed,

Russia went through the Yeltsin years, which is where America is headed once the economy sinks back into recession. Which, in my estimation,began yesterday.

[Eagle Mall]

187. while you cry, real progress is made by others

[AtomicKitten]

188. R.I.P.

[goldstein_emmanuel]

189. Dmitry Orlov says it'll be worse than collapse of USSR.

He points out that the USSR was a poor country, and people had a lot of skills (home gardens, repairing and keeping trashy Soviet bloc cars on the road, etc) that helped them survive the post USSR-break up years, when public services/the economy broke down.

By comparison we're a much wealthier country, and if our complex systems like our food distribution system (produce grown in CA and FL, shipped all over the country. Corn grown in Iowa, turned into livestock and all kinds of processed foods then shipped all over the country) break down, the US population is by and large completely incapable of fending for itself.

[Divernan]

203. Welcome to DU. Keep your seat belt buckled!

Very valid and timely point about the impact of transportation costs on food supplies and distribution - we're seeing right now how the soaring costs of gasoline impacts prices on everything in our supermarkets.

Also re repairing & keeping old cars on the road - my 2001 Saab, far better engineered and built than the Soviet cars, thank god, has over 180,000 miles and is going strong. Unfortunately GM closed down the long-time Saab dealers and tried to force Saab owners into their overpriced service centers. Word on the street is that the GM dealers' mechanics were given quotas every day, so you went in for an oil change and were graciously given a "free" inspection which never failed to discover other problems which ended up costing $1,000 - $2,000. On top of that the work was crappy. And the attitude toward anyone driving such an old car was condescending and rude.

So I just found an independent mechanic who only works on Saabs. You make an appointment with him, bring your car in, and you can watch him do the work! He shows you any problems he finds - orders genuine Saab replacement parts as necessary and explains the mechanics of what he's doing. He is always available through his cell phone. He told me he is so busy, he's about to have to stop taking any new customers.

[Kolesar]

196. Lame ass whining by Mike Whitney ... eom

[dogmoma56]

199. the richest 1% hold 42% of Americas Financial Wealth, 6 times what the Bottom 80% hold at 7%.. >Lin

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth....
this is evidence of Psychotic Narcissistic OCD Wealth Hording, they are mentally ill and out of control. our country, society, freedom itself will not survive much more of this insanity

they believe that 'wealth' is the measure of god favor of a man/corporation, therefore... it is a sin against god to tax a rich man. it is also a sin against god to help a poor man, because god is punishing the poor man with poverty


i'm reading American Fascists, fascinating. right on,
http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/0743284461/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307095446&sr=8-1

i just got thru reading this book on Doug Coe's "C st" Family.. how the Nazis won WW2, about Abraham Vereide's Christian Mafia.. wonderfully written.
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060560053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1307095562&sr=1-1

i just got this one but haven't read it yet
http://www.amazon.com/Street-Fundamentalist-Threat-American-Democracy/dp/0316091073/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1307095562&sr=1-2

this is the biggest problem in America.. a Faux religion based on perpetual war and looting the poor
http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html
Palin is a Dominionist,

Dominionism has taken over the Government by stealth. the poor are being punished by god, so it is a sin to help them.. so they are OBSESSED with repealing the NEW DEAL LEGISLATION

http://blog.buzzflash.com/hartmann/10016

[RBInMaine]

201. Doom Gloom Doom Gloom...please, either be part of the solution or stop the whining. Also, here is

some good news:

1) While the recovery is far from complete, we ARE in a recovery and things are not as bad economically as they were two years ago.
2) Manufacturing has been UP overall in recent months, including US car manufacturing. Better cars, better car companies.
3) Thanks to Obama and Dems we have at least some healthcare reform, a fair pay law, got a stimulus that lessened the impact of the recession and created or saved 2-3 million jobs (couldn't replace all 8 million lost, but HELPED), some Wall Street reform, and MANY other important and PROGRESSIVE laws.
4) As things have gotten better, states are starting to take in more money therefore helping their financial situations.
5) As part of the healthcare law, people up to age 26 can stay on their parents' plans, students loans are more efficient and less expensive,
and you can't be dumped for pre-existing conditions, etc. There's a lot of GOOD in that law.
6) People are waking up bigtime all over the country as to the right wing agenda and REJECTING IT. Look at Wisconsin, and upstate New York. 2012 is going to be a much better year for Dems/Progressives.
7) We have had the largest investments in our history in green energy technologies.
8) If you can do it, NOW is the about the best time in history to buy real estate and get loans with the interest rates being so low.

* America is still a place that offers many great opportunities if you want to work hard and play by the rules. Are there problems in income distribution, and have we not done well with financial regulation and unfair trade policies. Absolutely. But let's be part of the solution and also accentuate the positives in this country. We remain an envy to many other nations, and we also still do a lot of things right.

You can wallow in doom and gloom and bury your head in the sand, or you can stand up and be part of the SOLUTION. i.e. Get politically active, join organizations that support your views and causes, or even better, RUN FOR OFFICE YOURSELF at whatever level and work to make things better.

[truth2power]

204. Delete. This was meant to be a response to poster #1. n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

208. K and R

[truth2power]

212. I'd urge everyone to read the comments that accompany this article

over at Smirking Chimp. Some of them are quite poignant.

Thanks for posting, donna.

[Romulox]

221. "Not with a bang but a whimper." nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

233. Cooked, eaten, and the corporate vultures are picking the bones.