Not one credible person has said millions will be forced into debt or thrown in jail

[SpartanDem]

not Paul Krugman, not Ezra Klein, not a single person with a deep understanding of this bill or health care policy. Yet, I have seen this thrown about by some as if were a definitive truth, when in reality it is as truthful as when the teabaggers said the HCR bill contained death panels. I'm not saying that everyone that opposes this bill is acting like a teabagger, but anyone who uses such blatantly false arguments is no better than those irrational, idiots.

[RoyGBiv]

1. No credible person will say that ...

... because, as you know, it's just paranoid rambling.

[MercutioATC]

2. Ok, thousands.

Is that more acceptable to you?

[SpartanDem]

7. No, there is no proof of that either

[MercutioATC]

9. Ok. Will there be a financial penalty for failing to obtain health insurance?

We'll do this step by step if we have to.

[SpartanDem]

17. Yes

failure to pay though does not automatically equal jail time.

[MercutioATC]

19. One step at a time.

If you fail to obtain health insurance, how is that fine collected?

[SpartanDem]

22. It would added to your income tax returns

at least that is my understanding

[MercutioATC]

23. If that adjustment results in a tax deficit, and one is unable to pay the balance...

...what, in the bill, prevents one from suffering the same penalties as anybody else who fails to pay their federal income taxes (which, at some point, can result in imprisonment)?

[SpartanDem]

24. Theoretically nothing

however arguments about jail seem to presume it will those unable to pay not those simply unwilling facing jail time. My argument is that given the expansion of Medicaid, subsides and a hardship exemption make highly unlikely that people in truly tough financial situation will face the prospect of jail time. Let me ask you question what is the pentalty in the bill? and who is exempt.

[Abq_Sarah]

28. According to Tom Barthold

Who is the Chief of staff for the joint Committee on Taxation, willful failure to pay the penalty could result in a fine of 25K and up to one year in jail.

So, if my current plan doesn't meet their "minimum standards", for instance, a catastrophic care plan, the government is going to levy a fine against me. If I can't pay it or refuse to pay it, they can fine me up to $25,000 and up to a year in jail.


Let's go over that again. If I have an insurance plan that I like but doesn't meet the government's standards for a qualifying plan, my choices are to A: Pay more money to a private company for a product I do not want or B: pay a fine to the IRS in order to escape a larger fine or imprisonment.

In America.

[SpartanDem]

29. Existing coverage is grandfathered in as acceptable

[Golden Raisin]

33. Please. My medical insurance plan

which I've had for quite a few years was summarily abolished/discontinued/dropped by my carrier this year. The closest plan to the old that they now carry is costing me 40% more. Our government is now officially in bed with the big insurance companies. They'll do whatever the hell they want and the public be damned. You think Rahm Emmanuel gives a damn about grandfathering? They'll change, delete, renege or discontinue whatever they damn please.

[still_one]

3. If you haven't noticed a lot of things are getting thrown out without any substance /nt

[Ozymanithrax]

4. That was a meme from teabaggers and their ilk...

It has had some traction here, though for different ideological reasons.

[elocs]

5. Well you hear about it all the time here at DU so it MUST be true.

:bounce: Of course, the "not one credible person" might account for that.

[eridani]

6. Teabaggers are into the jail meme because Pelosi said it might be a good idea

--in a press conference. It isn't in the bill. However, having the IRS go after older people who choose paying current medical expenses to paying for a shitty not much more than catastrophic plan that they can't afford to use IS in the legislation.

[billh58]

27. And if Sarah

Palin said so on Limpballs radio show last month, it must be true:

http://mediamatters.org/research/200911180013

On Limbaugh's show, Palin fearmongered about "jail time as punishment" in Senate health care bill.

{Snip}

Fact: Neither health care reform bill under consideration in the Senate includes "jail time" as punishment for not purchasing insurance.

[eridani]

32. I said the bill didn't include it--just that Pelosi said it in a press conference n/t

[billh58]

34. I was agreeing

with you, and could have worded my response better...;-)

[Quantess]

8. So, how will the mandatory insurance provision be enforced?

I always heard it would begin with withholding tax returns.

[HughMoran]

38. Death squads

...of course :)

[SpartanDem]

42. I heard it was gonna be fema camps

[thunder rising]

10. Well maybe there will be enough of us to make it a retirement home

Just run that fkn skinhead over with my wheelchair.

I ain't pay'n. Not no, hell no.

[Armstead]

11. Jeezus this sounds like the Ronald Reagan Fan Club

[HughMoran]

39. ...some call it another name

"reality"

:P

[depakid]

12. Millions are already thrown into debt and bankruptcy- or even jailed if they fail to appear

on a judgment debtors' examination.

This bill makes no substantial inroads on that- and worse, likely tosses more people into the situation outlined in studies looking at those who were ostensibly covered who nevertheless lost their homes when they or a family member was injured or fell ill.

That's a fact, Jack.

And one that from every indication, excuse making Democrats now own.

[truedelphi]

13. Well said.

Not your fault if people cannot hear you.

[depakid]

15. Spin and deception takes effort

Truth (seen firsthand, studied and faithfully reported) isn't hard at all.

It is sad though truedelphi- that so many can't see it (or recognize it until it happens to them).

[mcablue]

14. The House bill contemplates jail

It's a possibility. The verdict will come from conference. The Senate bill doesn't talk about jail time, but the House does contain wording for criminal punishment:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/11/imprisoned-for-not-having-health-care/

[treestar]

16. There is tons of hysteria on DU

Easily jumping onto any bandwagon that says the bill is a bad thing.

The mandates didn't make sense to me either until I read more about it.

[Orangepeel]

18. the IRS would garnish your wages, take your car, put a lien on your house. Jail? Not so much.

people go to jail for tax fraud, but usually as an ancillary charge to something else. The IRS would rather keep people out and working and take a chunk out of their paychecks.

[PurityOfEssence]

20. So anything short of a reasonable bunch of deaths and financial calamities is just fine?

Just because some people are making strident claims doesn't mean that the proposal doesn't suck. Those who deliberately gin up and use false predictions are definitely out of line, but many unforeseen reactions will come of all this, and for the fears to be brought out into the open is a GOOD thing.

Life is complex, and trying to patch up a dysfunctional system like for-profit insured health care takes things to a labyrinthine extreme of elaborate machinations.

Let's do a bit of a redux here, though: although some without coverage will get it, many of the working- and allegedly middle-classes will not get a deal. Maybe we couldn't have done better, but we sure as fuck could have at least TRIED. The truth is that Obama and his administration started with the premise that for-profit, private insurance was the only thing possible, and they started by giving up far more than they ever should have. Where does one negotiate down from when one is already giving up everything at the start?

Middle-aged people caught in a job gap can still get absolutely ruined. Good, decent people who worked for and payed into the common well of this society's being are still at risk, and this was simply seen as nowhere near as important as buttressing big pharma and the rest of Medicine Incorporated. THAT'S the truth of this mess. IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT TO GIVE THESE "BUSINESSES" AN ARISTOCRATIC GUARANTEE OF THEIR MASSIVE WEALTH AND PRIVILEGE THAN TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE. This bill-in-the-forming does NOT ensure that everyone will be covered, but it DOES guarantee the safety of Medicine Incorporated, Big Pharma and the Gods of Insurance. They're more important.

It's best that it passes, but the risk is great that the fallout of costs, loopholes and unintended catch-22s may ricochet in a big way. By definition, the Insurance Industry is NOT going to suffer for this; what may suffer is the national debt, workers caught in unfortunate gaps and the credibility of the Democratic Party.

They didn't even really try. That's the true crime.

[Garam_Masala]

21. you will be handed over to IRS for "treatment"

I don't know if you ever had a run in with the IRS.
If you have, you already know how tough and heartless they are.
They will first take your bank account, then your wages, then your
car and finally your house.

If you own no property or have no money, then you are safe.

[Clio the Leo]

25. Not Barack Obama, not Howard Dean. NT

[Odin2005]

26. No people will just be driven into poverty by being forced to give money to corporations.

And you are deluded if you think the plans these people are forced onto will be worth shit.

[hughee99]

30. I don't recall a credible person saying the economy will be in ruins

when they passed all the banking deregulation horse shit years ago. I'm not saying they're right about this, but the fact that no ones talking about it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong either.

[Unvanguard]

31. Pretty much. It's ludicrous, paranoid nonsense.

Loss aversion, accompanied by poor information about and understanding of the bill, gone berserk--perhaps because of partisan filters adopted in response to the various health care compromises.

The public option didn't actually make all that much difference, but most of DU backed the bill with mandates and a public option.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Are any of these 'credible persons' standing up and clearly

saying that no one will be forced into debt to buy this product they are selling by force? Show us the statements that so 'no one will be ruined financially'. Then explain how this 'reform' will work for those of us whose families are held in contempt as unworthy of equality by many in the government, including Obama, Biden and the worst of all Tim Kaine. Are we total strangers, or a family? Or are we a 'household' for setting premiums, and 'single' when it comes to tax and subsidies? Can you explain it? My Senators can not, my rep can not. Can you? Will we pay more, or less than our share due to the bigoted nature of the majority? Any idea? Any 'credible persons' who know the answers? Got a link?
Definitive truth is one hell of a high goal post, considering those voting on it can not explain what our responsibilities will be under that law. We might save tons. We might be ruined. No one can say either way definitively. Can you? I'd love it if you could.

[Nancy Waterman]

36. Thank you for this post.

I have been thinking the same thing. The grossly exaggerated claims of how this will bankrupt people is as much fear mongering as what we have been seeing from the Right for months. The bill has many protections against this happening, and the pundits I trust have not even mentioned it.

[HughMoran]

37. rhetoric is truth

Screaming is calm discussion.

[Renew Deal]

40. If people are thrown in jail, then someone has to manage that jail

Which means JOBS!!! :silly:

[Hello_Kitty]

41. Why would Paul Krugman and Ezra Klein be credible on that matter?

What special knowledge do they possess about what the enforcement mechanism will be?

And WTF makes either Paul Krugman or Ezra Klein experts on health care policy anyway? Neither of them have any special training in the area and Ezra Klein is a 24 year old with a BA in Poli Sci. Why has he, of all people, been given such an esteemed platform from which to opine?

[Phx_Dem]

43. Only teabaggers and progressive fearmongers make this incidious claim.

Progressives have sunk even lower than I thought they were capable of. They're a despicable bunch and in good company with the teabaggers.