To those Dems who will vote for Obama ONLY IF he comes through with jobs, SSI,

[Cal33]

Medicare, Medicaid...whatever.... let me say this:

I sure hope he will become more of a real Democrat, but even if he doesn't,
he'll still get my vote. My reasons: If he wins, at least he'll be delaying
a Neocon take-over of our nation for 4 more years. And during those 4 years Dems.
will have the opportunity to learn to correct our errors, change our ways,
and choose a more left-leaning Democratic presidential nominee for 2016.

This will mean a lot of inside work, and a lot of changes among our congress
people. If there had been more "real Democrats" among our congressmen, it's
very possible that Obama would not have been appeasing the Repubs. to this degree.
I don't think Obama should be the only one to take the responsibility for
everything that has gone wrong. He isn't the only one. Sometimes his hands
are tied because of lack of support from his own people.

We'll have a huge amount of cleaning-our-own-house to do, should we win in
Nov. 2012 -- a huge amount of work and in a very short time. The whole Democratic
Party has to be scrutinized from top to bottom! We the people should be asking
our own Party representatives hard questions, and demand honest answers and changes
wherever necessary. It will entail a lot of motivation and hard work on our part.

A Neocon take-over of the presidency in Nov. 2012 would probably spell the
death of democracy in our nation. GW Bush tried to destroy our Constitution,
but didn't succeed. This time the Neocons will continue to trash our
Constitution where Bush had left off.

Let's take a look at the big picture: Just look at how the Neocon and Tea
Party governors of states like WI, MN, OH, NJ, FL, etc. are already doing
away with their people's rights. Can you imagine what will happen to the
whole country if a Neocon/Tea Party president should take over?

God forbid!!

Folks, we no longer have the luxury of venting our anger at Obama through
not voting for him. That is committing suicide. If you should feel that
he has you by your nuts, and is squeezing, (which he might not think he is
doing), just scream and take the pain -- for the love of your country and
of democracy, for your children's and their children's future.

We really ain't got no choice this time! The stakes are too high!!

[Armstead]

1. Very True...but there are dilemmas

I basically agree with you...Except I don't think progressives should just sit back and take it silently in the meantime.

One of the reasons Obama and the Democratic Party kowtow to Corporate America, and continue to help perpetuate conservative spin -- and marginalize liberal/progressives and the goals is because they assume we will silently march into the voting booth and vote for them.

They play "punch the hippies" (as Rachel Maddow calls it) is because they assume the hippies (anyone to the left of Harold Ford) will not hit back.

So yes to voting for Obama. but no to keeping silent and letting the centrist Democrats assume they can punch progressives anf liberals with immunity of consequences.

Its going to be a tight race, and they should have to sweat and -- maybe -- realuze they can't take the liberal base for granted this time.

[Cal33]

3. Oh, I'm definitely for what you said about continuing to make demands

on Obama and Congress -- not only after winning in 2012, but also right now.
But I think not voting for Obama would be suicidal.

[ClassWarrior]

2. Ahhh, the shut-up-and-take-it voting strategy.

We have no choice! We have to undermine our progressive values! The stakes are too high!!

:rofl:

Transparent.

NGU.

[Cal33]

7. Did my OP come across that way? I thought I made it pretty clear about

making conditions of voting for Obama "only if." It's like
pointing a gun at your own head and threatening to shoot if the
other wouldn't (maybe couldn't) accede to your wishes.

But by all means, scream and tell off Obama and Congress what
you think they are doing wrong. It'll at least allow you to let
of steam. But, please, don't shoot yourself.

It's not pleasant, but that is the situation I think we are in.
And let's be honest with ourselves and face it. I also think we
do have a chance of redress when we win in Nov. 2012.

So let's make it as sure as possible that we do win in Nov. 2012.
That's the most important point of all!

[vi5]

8. But if he/they know.....

...that it doesn't matter whether he listens to us or not, that we're still going to vote for him/them anyway then what possible incentive could they have to listen to our screaming?

I agree that we don't have a choice, but that is why they are doing what they are doing. Because they know we're not going to do anything about it.

[Cal33]

18. That's an indirect way of saying that you feel you're being belittled. And it hurts.

Are you willing to risk our whole nation becoming a dictatorship so that
our egos will feel less hurt? Losing our democracy is an awfully big
price to pay. It looks like Obama has already made up his mind, whether
he likes it or not what he is doing (he may also be choosing the lesser of
evils, for all we know).

I think our remaining a democracy depends on Obama's winning in 2012. I
see no other alternative. Do you? (Maybe we are not even talking about
the same main point).

[vi5]

21. There's nothing indirect about it...

I think this president belittles a large portion of the Democratic base and a large portion of the country.

I agree with your point that ultimately we don't have any choice but to vote for him.

But I'm saying it's naive to think that he's ever, at any point actually going to listen to any of our concerns. He's made that much clear since day 1. And the big reason for that is because he knows we have nowhere else to go and no other choice.

So yes, I agree that we need to vote for him. I disagree that at any point, ever, our yelling and screaming is going to make a damn bit of difference to him, or to anyone he surrounds himself with.

I guess the shorter version of all this is: I'm a cynic and a pessimist and I think we're screwed.

[Cal33]

33. Yes, we are being screwed by many other Demcrats as well. Ultimately,

we are being screwed by the combination of corporate execs, the military, the Neocons and Tea
Partyers. I feel just as frustrated as you do. Am glad you will vote for Obama. My reason
tells me that not to do so would help hasten the imminent death of democracy in our country. I think we are living in deathly critical times. If Obama wins in Nov. 2012, it will buy us 4 more years of
life. And where there is life, there is hope.

[vi5]

38. Make no mistake about it....

It will be 4 more years of barely life. If Obama keeps up at this pace, the only thing we will have gained by 4 more years of him is having our bones picked clean slowly rather than just obliterated whole.

I suppose that is slightly better and why I'll vote for him.

But make no mistake about it. I blame his obsessive desire for "bipartisanship" and his obsession with "grand bargains" and making sure the beltway insiders think of him as the last reasonable man in Washington for the mess we are in. At a certain point he owns it. That point will be as soon as he is re-elected.

[ClassWarrior]

19. Understand that my problem isn't with the Prez. It's with your commentary.

Of course, we have no alternative. But when so-called Dems rub that notion in progressives' faces, and cite it as proof that we need to shut the hell up, it makes me wonder at their motives.

NGU.

[Cal33]

34. Okay. I'll let you know that I am at times very critical of Obama, too.

I have been criticized in this forum by readers who thought some of
my posts were too anti-Obama -- including this thread.

I feel just as frustrated as anyone else, but I do want to see
democracy continue to live in our nation. And I'm glad you'll vote
for Obama. Good luck to all of us.

[pansypoo53219]

9. give him a BETTER FUCKING CONGRESS.

he had 6 months w/out franken and 3 yars of lieberfuckenputz and others to his right. it was not just obama's fault. FDR had a BETTER CONGRESS.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[Liberal_Stalwart71]

11. +1,000,000!! Again, I don't know why people expect him to be a "real Democrat"

when they gave him a wingnut House. It makes no sense!

[vi5]

23. Fine. Will he help us or stand in our way?

If he really does want a better congress because he really, really just really wants to do progressive things but can't because he doesn't have one, then will he support our efforts? Or will he continue to support the incumbent protection racket he seems to be a fan of?
Will he help campaign for progressive challengers to conservadems?
Will he at the very least stay out of all primary races?

If he commites to either of these things then I'll believe for a split second that a better Congress would change a single, solitary thing he has done or will do.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the one who insisted on making nice with Lieberputz and encouraged Reid to not do anything of any sort of strength to show him he can't get away with standing in the way of the progressive agenda?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[Pholus]

4. I dunno about your argument. The damage from Neocons will depend on where they start.

Look, they'll get in eventually. After all they have tons of money and the big PR machine. We haven't seen any period in recent history where they have been unable to make an inroads in getting elected. That's just history.

Where I don't buy your argument is that when they get around to cutting on the social safety net will it be one similar to what we have now, or one compromised by years of 4:1 "hostage" negotiations that we started. It simply isn't clear to me which would be worse to endure, but I'm betting that a compromised net will be easier to drastically cut than the current one and the reversal of such cuts would also be much harder.

So I'm still on the fence and waiting for the balance sheet. While my heart is with the ideals of the Democratic Party, my vote will not be given to a single candidate simply out of fear of the monsters.

Edit: Adding "my only leverage IS my vote."

[Pholus]

5. One more thing. I will support a candidate who fought and lost. I can even accept compromise. BUT

when the compromise starts at the level where you're only arguing about how bad your loss is, I question whether my support is warranted.

[Cal33]

16. Yes, I understand your views, and I am for them. Also yes, at some ;point

the Repubs will win the presidency and congress again. I only
hope that by that time, the Demcrats will have done enough of
their own house-cleaning and will have become stronger and
undone much of the damage caused by GW Bush & Co. as well as
others. Strict supervision of business corporations should be
one of the first priorities. We all know that business corporations
are the biggest war-mongers on earth today. And they are mostly for
profit. To them, blood-money is still money. A high
percentage of their top executives are also psychopathic crazies.

Psychopaths are attracted to money and power, like flies are drawn
to cow-dung. So they are naturally attracted to politics and business
corporations -- because that's where the money and power are. They'll
always be found in these two professions, they always have been there.
The trouble today is that there are too many of them concentrated in
these two areas -- and they are helping each other to their mutual profit.

Even today more and more Republicans are beginning to
realize that their present leadership is, to a great extent, made
up of really crazy people, who should never have been elected at all.
I hope the real Republicans will make a come-back, throw out the
Neocons and Tea Partyers (who never even were Republicans to
begin with) and regain control. Maybe Dems might even try help
them achieve that goal. It seems to have its merits. I have
friends who are Republicans, but not one of them is a Neocon or
a Tea Partyer. I can't relate to psychopaths.

If the real Republicans should regain control of their own party,
it may spell the end of having too many crazies in government. The
old-timer Republicans, who have suffered under them, would be only
too glad to have them thrown out again.

Have you noticed that the Repubs. are into so many areas that don't
seem to be related, but really are so. The news media, for example.
The Repubs. are able to make half of America believe even their most
blatant lies. How did they accomplish this? They own 90% of the
news media, and have been brain-washing Americans for decades. Dems.
are able to have only the other half, even though they are telling the
truth. Makes one wonder! Dems. can learn from them to spread out
their interests. It'll help to halt the evil and do some good.

I'm voting for Obama because I think he is the one who has the best
chances of winning in 2012. Among the Dems. there is no primary
election. If he wins, it can buy time for the Dems. to change for
the better and grow. If Obama loses, I think it's the beginning of
the end of democracy in the USA.

What might follow? Wars of all kinds -- including civil and WWIII.

God forbid, that the Neocons and Tea Partyers should win, in 2012!

[Cal33]

25. Even if SS, Medicare, Medicaid...etc..should be lost to the Repubs. now, the Dems

will still be able to get them reinstated in the future, if Obama wins in Nov. 2012.
But if Obama loses, the loss of SS, Medicaare, Medicaid, etc. will probably be permanent.

It makes sense to see that Obama wins in 2012 - regardless of wbich way one looks at it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

6. "will become more of a real Democrat"? Talk about damning with "faint praise".

Unrec for divisive hyperbole. :thumbsdown:

[Cal33]

17. If you think I'm the first to express this sentiment, you're grossly mistaken. I've

seen it a hundred times, and I feel the same way.

[Tarheel_Dem]

27. Dude, it's the internet. I'm sure you've seen it before. We all have.

:rofl:

[boxman15]

14. Oh no! Rational commentary!

While I disagree that Obama isn't a "real Democrat," the consequences of refusing to vote or voting third-party in 2012 would be absolutely disastrous.

I live in Michigan. We have a governor that has given "emergency managers" the power to take over city governments, disregard elected officials, and more. I am seeing the consequences of electing a modern Republican. It's not pretty. Having that happen on the national level would be a terrible mistake, and we'd all suffer because of it.

2012 will be a tight election. President Obama will need all the support we can give him to avoid a Tea Party takeover of America. Whether you think he's the most liberal and progressive president since FDR or a spineless, weak moderate (personally, I think he's somewhere in the middle), I think we can all agree he is lightyears ahead of the alternative.

Sitting out or voting third party is the equivalent of voting Republican.

[polmaven]

15. I think he would actually LOVE

to be what you refer to as a "real Democrat", but reality stands in his way. The fact that he inherited a Congress with obstructionist Republicans plying their wares each and every day to make him a "one term" president, and standing in the way of real reform, makes compromise an absolute necessity if this country is to survive. You have absolutely hit the nail directly on the head.

In my opinion, though, compromise IS being a Democrat. We put the good of the American people before the wealth of the corporations, even if the only way to do that is through compromise.

I am not under the illusion that I am the only one in the country who knows what is best for it. I understand the president and his cabinet have much more information on many of the issues than do I, and I will trust a Democrat's judgment over Republican irrationality any time.

[Marrah_G]

20. We all have our own opinions on when, why and whom to vote for.

In the end all of us have to answer to our own conscious.

[Beacool]

22. Well, that's your right.

I have no clue if I'll even vote in 2012. At this point they all make me sick, but one party makes me sicker than the other.

;(

[Cal33]

24. I think it would be better to vote for the party that will make you less sick. Not to

at all would be helping the party that will make you more sick. :O)

[Beacool]

26. You got a point, but I made myself a promise in 2008.

I would never, ever, again, vote for the lesser of two evils.

;-)

[Cal33]

30. Even if it should be at the expense of helping the greater of two evils?

One would be better off not to make such wide-ranging promises. :)

[WiffenPoof]

28. Interesting...

Sometimes I feel like I just want the entire system to crash so that the American people will finally put someone in office that WILL DO SOMETHIMG! Someone who will FIGHT for our rights and principles.

-P

[Cal33]

31. Maybe you've bought the old saying that the POTUS was the most powerful

man in the world. Well, he just isn't. That saying is pure b.s. from
over-enthusiastic journalistic exaggeration. The president has to
satisfy so many people in his own party, not to mention the opposition
party. He simply can NOT do just as he pleases. Then many people
today believe that Corporate America is the real boss of the USA, not
the president. And that's why we are on our way to hell.

Oh, well.

[lindalou65]

35. No matter whether we have a so-called progesssive

in office or not, I don't believe they can pull off some of the things DUers expect. Getting a left-leaning president will be difficult at best and as much as I would like to see one in office, I would venture to say, the USA is not there yet. Obama can only do so much---he cannot do "as he wishes"and has accomplished more than Bush and many others before him. We still must contend with those on the right and independents, etc who would not support a "left" or "progressive" president. In order to be re-elected, he has to appeal to many, not just to a few. You cannot force feed the righties with progressive values anymore than the righties can force feed progressives. That's my take on it.

[Cal33]

36. Welcome to DU, Lindalou. Hope you will enjoy it here. All the best.

[jaysunb]

29. The SCOTUS is the first reason

above and beyond ANYTHING else.

[Cal33]

32. There is a movement going on to have Clarence Thomas investigated

for corruption, tax-fraud, etc. Isn't there. Granted, the chances
of his impeachment are close to zero. But, the amount of embarrassing
and criminal details that investigation will bring out in the open --
if it should really take place.

The above is even more applicable to having Bush impeached. Whether or
not he'd be found guilty is immaterial. It's the exposure of the truth
for the entire country - the entire world - to see that counts.

[Fire1]

37. After 2012, you can have this &^%$#@*&^%$#!! Constitution

and all!!