Just Listened To Obama Speech - He's Campaigning For Carnahan In Missouri.......

[global1]

he really fried the Repugs. Took shots at Boehner & Barton and the Repugs in general as the party of 'No'. That's the guy I voted for.

[napi21]

1. I listened too. That's the campaigner Obama. I think he doesn't

believe a President should act like that. I agree with you that it gets his information out a lot better, but even I question if it would be very effective if he did it almost all the time. Kinda like when a parent yells at their kids all the time. Soon they just tune it out.

[madmax]

2. crickets

On another thread he's being roasted, toasted, and fried. He's Bush III. It's exhausting - last person to leave please turn off the lights.

[livetohike]

3. He's in campaign mode. Those that underestimate him will

be wrong again.

[no limit]

4. So Obama gave a good speech? Holy shit! That totally excuses all his actions.

[msongs]

6. speeches are show biz PR. talk means nothing. action is what matters..nt

[MissDeeds]

19. +1

He's great at making speeches, no doubt about that. It's the follow through that is problematic.

[treestar]

25. I thought the bully pulpit was good enough on its own?

If the POTUS would only use it, he'd get all we want out of the Senate!

[SunsetDreams]

81. He should be

using the bully pulpit...no wait he is talking too much, I want action.
:eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

86. Ignorance is bliss.

Enjoy.

[slay]

7. +1

he's got us in 2 illegal wars, unemployment is going through the roof, he helped cover-up the crimes of the Bush administration, etc. if he's a progressive he must be the most backwards conservative progressive on the face of the planet.

[Citizen Worker]

12. and Pakistan makes 3

[FrenchieCat]

34. And Iran makes 4!

He's just like Hitler! :grr:

[phleshdef]

9. There is nothing that needs an excuse.

[no limit]

23. ahaha ahahaha hahahaha hahaha hahah HA! You don't really believe that now do you?

[phleshdef]

27. I'm sorry, you didn't type "haha" enough times to be convincing.

And you wonder why the reality based progressives don't take you and the rest of the loud fringe seriously.

[no limit]

29. Ok lets play. Tell me why it's ok to put the burden of healthcare reform on middle class people?

a single person making between $8-$15 an hour will be asked to pay upwards of $200 more each month for healthcare because of the bill Obama pushed.

You don't think that was wrong?

[phleshdef]

35. I make more than that and I cover me AND my wife for exactly that amount.

That doesn't mean I think the costs of health insurance are still fair. But now, they will HAVE to cover most people, they generally won't be able to drop anyone and most of all, government finally has a solid foot in the door of making sure everyone gets covered. Its now the responsibility of the government to ensure that anyone that can't afford it get some form of access to it. It isn't perfect. It will need refined, just as social security and medicare needed extreme refining. New precedents of regulating the health insurance industry have been set and plenty of room for ad hoc adjustment was in the final bill that was passed. Thats basically the most important part that we needed to begin with. Until we see how things play out when the exchanges are set up and insurance companies that participate will have to meet certain benchmarks, then we can't make any solid judgements on what cost is really going to be, until we see the exchanges in action. But just the fact that these federally regulated exchanges are going to exist is going to change the entire game of health insurance coverage and no, I absolutely do not think thats wrong. But I'm not stuck on some unrealistic urge for instant gratification in a desire for utopian perfection. And I'm definately not going to render a simplified judgement on a 2,000 page health care bill that touches every aspect of the system. The healthcare bill is way bigger than your half assed hypothetical example.

[no limit]

39. Umm...so you are going to pull the ignorant card? Yes, we know what the costs will be

here you go:

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx#tableLinkDiv

The people I mentioned (single $8-$15 /hr workers) will be screwed by this bill.

So again, is this okay?

[phleshdef]

47. Although higher than I would like, 200 some odd dollars a month isn't a lot of money.

Typical rent costs a lot more than that. Gas heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer can run that high monthly. Most people pay 200 dollars a month to have a cell phone, internet and cable tv. By 2014, it will probably be even less as the value of a dollar changes. So yea, I'm still okay with it. And I know that if we find that there is a real problem with people affording it, the exchanges are setup in such a way that the government has the means to get insurers to lower the price and also bump up the amount government itself will subsidize.

Your magic calculator means nothing to me.

[no limit]

51. My magic facts mean nothing to you? I love that logic, like I said denial on the brink of insanity

Yes, you are absolutely right. All those things you mentioned, rent, gas, heating, food, phone, etc all cost a lot of money. As a result 24 year olds don't have $200 a month left over for heath insurance that they probably won't be able to afford to use anyway unless it's an extreme emergency. But I don't expect you to understand that, I hope it's comfy in that limo.

[phleshdef]

53. Your magic inability to use your own calculator, more like it

For shits and giggles, I ran the 8 dollar value by your calculator. Funny that, it comes out to be a total of 584 a year. To hit around the 200 dollar a month mark, you are single and making around 15 bucks an hour, working full time, with no employer benefits offered. Having been a person that use to make exactly that much and having been single at the time, I can tell you without no doubt at all that yes the 200 bucks a month would have been perfectly affordable. Luckily, I paid less than half that because my employer offered insurance but had it not, I would have had to give up a weekend of bar hopping at most.

Your concept of the value of money in the year 2010 has much to be desired along with your ability to use your own links effectively.

[no limit]

57. Do you know the definition of "up to". Up to $200. $50 a month isn't a cake walk at $600 a paycheck

What year was this that you lived on $15? Did you do the numbers for $10 an hour by any chance?

20,800 a year / 25 year old single adult / no employee benfits / middle cost factor

$93 a month for a person bringing in $640 every 2 weeks after 20% taxes (conservative number on my part). Lets just subtractssome things from that $1,200 every 2 paychecks:

Rent: -500
Car: -100 (I know lets pretend poor people should drive cars, they clearly don't deserve it)
Car Insurance: $150
Food: $300 (Do you think these poor people deserve $75 a week for food? I guess they could eat ramen until they pull themselves up by the bootstraps?)
Electric/Gas: $80

I'm at around $1,100 which leaves me with a little over $100, unfortunately for me I know have to buy health insurance and now can't afford a phone, internet, shoes, etc, etc, etc. But I guess you don't think they deserve any of those things and the government should tell them they don't deserve any of those things, it's the american way.

Now I know, I know, there are 2 more pay periods each year. I know it's hard for someone of your caliber to understand but that money is usually gone as fast as it comes to cover existing bills, emergencies, and other expenses. Most people don't even notice those 2 extra pay period because they come up short each month anyway. And I'm being exremely conservative on the numbers I used above. Not to mention what you said, things will be much more expensive in 2014 but you and I know there will still be lots of people living on $10/hr.

So I will ask you again, why put the burden of healthcare reform on these people?

[phleshdef]

64. Seriously? 800 bucks a month for rent and food for 1 friggin person?

My car insurance has been like 80 bucks since I turned 25 too by the way. I guess the rent I don't relate to because I had roomates, but no way did it ever take 300 bucks a month to eat and eat healthily. Making 8 dollars an hour is barely above what minimum wage will be in 2014. Even if you are single and not living with a roomate and you have to rent (not everyone has to), then you are living tight regardless of that 93 bucks a month. Sometimes you have to have a roomate to get by comfortably, I've had to. Its not the end of the world. No healthcare bill is going to make life obstacle-less.

Either way, if your employer isn't offering you health insurance, then 93 dollars a month for a silver plan is a lot better than what you are going to pay right now. The government is still subsidizing over 2,000 a year for you. You can still purchase a plan that isn't as good for cheaper, but the calculator doesn't show those plans. Either way you are still getting a pretty good deal from the government there, way better than what they would get without this bill, which is absolutely nothing.

[no limit]

So ok, poor people don't deserve $75 a week for food. Can we make it $50?

Make it $50 and you still come up totally short. Keep in mind I didn't add any leuisure, phone, internet, cable, clothing, etc, etc, etc. People don't like to live like animals. And as a result these people don't buy health insurance. If something bad happens tought shit, they'll deal with a bad credit for 7 years and declare bankruptcy. Chances are their credit sucks already anyway. Now the government (protecting the insurance industry once again) says no, you don't get to declare bankruptcy. You need to buy insurance or pay a fine, you no longer have that choice of risk.

And you are ok with this?

And that's nice you are getting a better deal for health insurance under this plan(nobody is disputing that). Unfortunately that means nothing if you still can't afford it. If I force you to buy a ferrari but give you 50% off is that a good deal?

[phleshdef]

71. If you can't pay 50 bucks for health insurance, even at 8 bucks an hour...

...then you seriously need to find ways to improve your budget situation. I'm sorry, I've lived off less than that when I was younger and I still found ways to live more frugally. That 50 bucks a month or very small yearly fine would have been the least of my worries.

[no limit]

75. Umm...$10 an hour and $93 a month for insurance. Tell me which of these things they dont deserve

$93 a month for a person bringing in $640 every 2 weeks after 20% taxes (conservative number on my part). Lets just subtractssome things from that $1,200 every 2 paychecks:

Rent: -500
Car: -100 (I know lets pretend poor people should drive cars, they clearly don't deserve it)
Car Insurance: $150
Food: $300 (Do you think these poor people deserve $75 a week for food? I guess they could eat ramen until they pull themselves up by the bootstraps?)
Electric/Gas: $80

I'm at around $1,100 ($1000 if we use $50 a week for food).

[phleshdef]

78. After taxes, you should still have close to 400 bucks left over.

93 bucks is still not a big deal.

[no limit]

83. I have a hard time seeing what version of math you are using

20,800 a year = $1,386 if you assume a 20% tax.

Rent: -500
Car: -100 (I know lets pretend poor people should drive cars, they clearly don't deserve it)
Car Insurance: $150
Food: $200 (Do you think these poor people deserve $75 a week for food? I guess they could eat ramen until they pull themselves up by the bootstraps?)
Electric/Gas: $80

You have $356 and you haven't yet paid phone ($50), internet ($30), leisure ($30 a week ok with you?), water, clothing, gasoline, car maintaince, etc, etc, etc. Now you have to add $93 a month in insurance.

Again, what kind of math are you using? I'm not following.

And is it ok to force someone in that position to now pull out $93 out of their ass each month? Can you please answer this? I asked it a number of times.

[mkultra]

97. your calculations are a half truth as usual

The $93 you quoted is for coverage well and above the minimum "required" payment as you put it. IF a person chooses to, he may pay much less for very basic coverage while receiving a lower level of coverage. I find it hard to believe that you haven't actually read the vary web page you are pulling this data from so i must assume you are intentionally misleading people.

[no limit]

107. Ok, give me some numbers. What's the lowest possible amount a $10/hr person will pay?

[phleshdef]

79. BTW, I officially like your magic calculator.

It reinforces how much good this bill is gonna do.

[tekisui]

109. You have no idea what you are talking about.

8 dollars an hour is nothing in the real world. You are seriously out of touch if you think anyone making 8 bucks an hour can toss out 50 bucks easily.

[Smashcut]

"200 dollars a month isn't a lot of money"

Easy for you to say since you've already said you make more than $8 - $15 dollars an hour.

"I got mine" - where have I seen that attitude before?

[Smashcut]

105. .

[FrenchieCat]

38. Did you not notice that Health Care barely passed?

and yet you want to think that single payer would have?
With the Senate and House that we have? What planet do you reside on?

and if anything close to socialized healthcare would have passed (which it wouldn't have),
so many in the healthcare industry would have been put out of work,
we'd be at 20% unemployed by now....
and I say that folks would be doing what they always have,
foaming at the mouth at their new taxes deducted from their paycheck to pay for health care.....
and like in Europe, taxes is how one pays for health care, cause it ain't free.
In otherwords, they'd still be pissed and complaining about something or other.

[no limit]

40. I never said anything about single payer. I asked why is it ok to put the burden on the middle class

I can't get an answer.

[FrenchieCat]

48. There are subsidies that are there on a sliding scale,

so it would depend on how much a person earned
prior to them having to pay $200 per month.

Middle Class always carry a greater burden.....
because they make less than the Rich, but have to same pay full fare....
that's why they are considered middle class....cause what they pay
is usually a bigger bite out of their budget, than with someone rich.

My understanding is that folks have till 2014 before
they will be fined for not having insurance,
and at that time the first year is like $97 for the entire year...
it goes up after that, but not to the tune of $2,400 per year, as you are suggesting.

[no limit]

52. I posted a calculator above. I've been screaming about this since this bill was proposed

I don't get why I have to keep repeating it.

The $200 I mentioned is AFTER subsidies. You make a fair point about the fine, but when you are making $8-$15 /hr $97 is not something you just come up with. And after they pay that $97 they didn't have to pay before they won't have anything for it. Before it probably paid the car insurance or even the car payment, now it's money given to the government because the government wanted the CBO numbers to look as good as possible without thinking of the people this will hurt.

[phleshdef]

55. Less than 10% of your annual income for assurance of healthcare needs is not a bad deal, period.

[no limit]

58. If I gave you half off on ferraris and forced you to buy one would that be a good deal?

[phleshdef]

70. I don't look at the mandate the way you look at the mandate.

In order to pay for everyone to get decent coverage, we have to mandate something, whether it be an additional income tax or whether it be mandating us to pay our part directly into the pool, there was no way of getting around the need to create a reliable revenue generation structure. You are mandated to pay FICA taxes at a certain income level, among other taxes for various services. In the end, you are required to put out money for a service. If the government handled it directly through a public option, you would still have to pay something for it if you had the income and we would all still need to be forced to participate in order to assure enough revenue is generated so that everyone can be covered.

[no limit]

74. Again, the burden is being put on people that already live paycheck to paycheck

Right now people don't have health insurance because they can't afford it. They still won't be able to afford it even if it will be cheaper. So the risk these people take is bankruptcy if something truly bad happens. If you are single, 25, and living on $10 an hour that's a perfectly acceptable risk to take. Yet now the government is taking that choice away and forcing these people to come up with money they don't have.

I will repost what I posted above incase you didn't see it since it was addressed to a different member:

$93 a month for a person bringing in $640 every 2 weeks after 20% taxes (conservative number on my part). Lets just subtractssome things from that $1,200 every 2 paychecks:

Rent: -500
Car: -100
Car Insurance: $150
Food: $300
Electric/Gas: $80

I'm at around $1,100. As I said in that post this doesn't include many other basic things (phone, leusiure, clothing, internet, etc, etc, etc) and I have less than $200 a month if you include the 2 extra paychecks each year. On that kind of income $90 a month is no small amount.

[phleshdef]

77. No, they can come up with the 97 or whatever it is per year tax penalty.

Its really not nearly as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

[no limit]

84. All the math shows it's huge for someone living on $10/hr. But keep ignoring it.

I posted the expenses vs income over and over in this thread, you keep ignoring it.

[FrenchieCat]

56. $97.00 a year is a pair of good tennis shoes, or a big night out on the town.

Come on!

[phleshdef]

59. To be 25, single and making only 12-15 dollars an hour again.

I'd shell out 97$ a year for all eternity if I could spend all of it in that stage of life.

[no limit]

60. Or gas/electric/food/ and all the other things people living on that kind of money need

I don't ever recall having a night out on the town when I was making $10 an hour that set me back $97, not anywhere near that. Paying $20 for 2 movie tickets was hard enough.

[FrenchieCat]

62. We are talking annually......

Let's not take this over the top-
Come on!

[no limit]

63. Someone making $10/hr will have to pay $97 a month (not year)

[FrenchieCat]

66. Someone making $10 per hour.....if they worked full time

would have to pay $76.41 monthly for actual health insurance,
or if they so choose they can pay the fine, which in 2014 (the first year that the penalty is levied), will be $97 for the year.

How much did that person think was going to be taken out of his/her check
for health insurance under single payer? Less than $76.41 per month?
I doubt that.

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

The site above also notes...."The proposal also makes available a catastrophic policy for young adults and those exempted from the requirement to obtain insurance that is less comprehensive and has a lower premium than other coverage. It is not reflected in the calculator.

[no limit]

68. Thanks for pointing out the catastrophic policy, I didn't see it. But where are you getting $76.41

I can't find it on that page.

And look at the expenses I posted above for someone making $10 an hour. Even $76 would not be a small number.

[mkultra]

99. its a choice, not a requirment.

[mkultra]

98. no they wont, this isnt true.

[tekisui]

110. Wow. You are out of touch, too.

I don't even know anyone who can spend 97 dollars on a night out.

[dave29]

100. I'm sorry, but someone making $10 an hour is not middle class.

I am middle class, and more than happy to pay more into the system so EVERYONE can get some level of coverage. The idea behind this phase of the health care overhaul is really as simple as that.

[Phx_Dem]

45. +1. He's doing a GREAT job!

[IOKIYAL]

10. Says the crowd who are always yelling for him to do more speeches

[phleshdef]

11. Yea, they cry for him to use the bully pulpit, he does, then suddenly "its just a speech".

These people are about as transparent as it gets.

[jenmito]

13. EXACTLY!!! n/t

[firedupdem]

15. You just nailed it. Nothing is enough because they just hate the

man personally. Fuck it. I said it, and it's true. So now it's the republican "he's good at speeches" meme. People need to just be as honest here as they are other places and just admit they hate the man period.

[no limit]

26. We hate the man personally? Where the hell do you guys pull this crap from?

You can't be in this much denial, it brinks on insanity.

I hate the man's positions, positions you are too afraid to discuss because you know he is wrong on. I have nothing against him personally, in fact as far as personality goes I really like the guy. Smart, funny, works hard, comes from a tough background and beat the odds to become the first black president of the United States. I supported the guy since early on in the primaries. And you are going to make up bullshit about how we hate him personally because we don't happen to like the fact he is moving the country further to the right? I have some much more I would like to say to you for your outright bullshit but it would violate the rules.

[dionysus]

92. the personal grudges people display are quite obvious, actually.

[azmouse]

42. +1

I read what they are saying, here and elsewhere, and you are absolutely right.

[CBR]

16. +1000 nt

[Starbucks Anarchist]

21. Bingo.

:thumbsup:

[berni_mccoy]

22. +100

[Jennicut]

28. Seriously. I thought we wanted a stronger message out there?

I have given up trying to figure some people out.

[Phx_Dem]

46. +1. Becuase they're compulsive whiners.

[Radical Activist]

104. "I never expected Obama to be liberal and now I'm totally disillusioned"

Uh-huh. It's amazing how often I read those two statements in the same blog post or online op-ed. Of course, the statements aren't in the same sentence like I just wrote it. That would make the disingenuous nature of their so-called disillusionment too obvious.

[no limit]

24. I'm in some kind of crowd? Wow, didn't know that.

I also don't recall every saying he needs to do more speeches, maybe you can refresh my memory?

[impik]

30. They never supported him. It's a waste of time

to even talk to them. Just ignore. I love that function.

[geek tragedy]

33. Yep, they move the goals and then bitch when the ball doesn't

sail through the upright.

Bad faith critics.

[NJmaverick]

31. These actions?

1. Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut spending
2. Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices
3. Instituted enforcement for equal pay for women
4. Beginning the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq
5. Families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB
6 Ended media blackout on war casualties; reporting full information
7. Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB; the media is now permitted to do so pending adherence to respectful rules and approval of fallen soldier’s family
8. The White House and federal government are respecting the Freedom of Information Act
9. Instructed all federal agencies to promote openness and transparency as much as possible
10. Limits on lobbyist’s access to the White House
11. Limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration
12. Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date
13. Phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdated weapons systems, which weren’t even used or needed in Iraq/Afghanistan
14. Removed restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research
15. Federal support for stem-cell and new biomedical research
16. New federal funding for science and research labs
17. States are permitted to enact federal fuel efficiency standards above federal standards
18. Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect
19. Funds for high-speed, broadband Internet access to K-12 schools
20. New funds for school construction
21 The prison at Guantanamo Bay is being phased out
22. US Auto industry rescue plan
23. Housing rescue plan
24. $789 billion economic stimulus plan
25. The public can meet with federal housing insurers to refinance (the new plan can be completed in one day) a mortgage if they are having trouble paying
26. US financial and banking rescue plan
27. The secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere are being closed
28. Ended the previous policy; the US now has a no torture policy and is in compliance with theGeneva Convention standards
29. Better body armor is now being provided to our troops
30. The missile defense program is being cut by $1.4 billion in 2010
31. Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols
32. Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic
33. Reengaged in the agreements/talks on global warming and greenhouse gas emissions
34. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office
35. Successful release of US captain held bySomali pirates; authorized the SEALS to do their job
36. US Navy increasing patrols off Somali coast
37. Attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles
38. Cash for clunkers program offers vouchers to trade in fuel inefficient, polluting old cars for new cars; stimulated auto sales
39. Announced plans to purchase fuel efficient American-made fleet for the federal government
40. Expanded the SCHIP program to cover health care for 4 million more children
41. Signed national service legislation; expandednational youth service program
42. Instituted a new policy on Cuba, allowing Cuban families to return home to visit loved ones
43. Ended the previous policy of not regulating and labeling carbon dioxide emissions
44. Expanding vaccination programs
45. Immediate and efficient response to the floods in North Dakota and other natural disasters
46. Closed offshore tax safe havens
47. Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals
48. Ended the previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs; the new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back
49.. Ended the previous practice of protecting credit card companies; in place of it are new consumer protections from credit card industry’s predatory practices
50. Energy producing plants must begin preparing to produce 15% of their energy from renewable sources
51. Lower drug costs for seniors
52. Ended the previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs; the federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings
53. Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel
54. Improved housing for military personnel
55. Initiating a new policy to promote federal hiring of military spouses
56. Improved conditions at Walter Reed Military Hospital and other military hospitals
57 Increasing student loans
58. Increasing opportunities in AmeriCorps program
59. Sent envoys to Middle East and other parts of the world that had been neglected for years; reengaging in multilateral and bilateral talks and diplomacy
60. Established a new cyber security office
61. Beginning the process of reforming and restructuring the military 20 years after the Cold War to a more modern fighting force; this includes new procurement policies, increasing size of military, new technology and cyber units and operations, etc.
62. Ended previous policy of awarding no-bid defense contracts
63. Ordered a review of hurricane and natural disaster preparedness
64. Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient
65. Students struggling to make college loan payments can have their loans refinanced
66. Improving benefits for veterans
67. Many more press conferences and town halls and much more media access than previous administration
68. Instituted a new focus on mortgage fraud
69. The FDA is now regulating tobacco
70. Ended previous policy of cutting the FDA and circumventing FDA rules
71. Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports
72. Authorized discussions with North Korea and private mission by Pres. Bill Clinton to secure the release of two Americans held in prisons
73. Authorized discussions with Myanmar and mission by Sen. Jim Web to secure the release of an American held captive
74. Making more loans available to small businesses
75. Established independent commission to make recommendations on slowing the costs of Medicare
76. Appointment of first Latina to the Supreme Court
77. Authorized construction/opening of additional health centers to care for veterans
78. Limited salaries of senior White House aides; cut to $100,000
79. Renewed loan guarantees for Israel
80. Changed the failing/status quo military command in Afghanistan
81. Deployed additional troops to Afghanistan
82. New Afghan War policy that limits aerial bombing and prioritizes aid, development of infrastructure, diplomacy, and good government practices by Afghans
83. Announced the long-term development of a national energy grid with renewable sources and cleaner, efficient energy production
84. Returned money authorized for refurbishment of White House offices and private living quarters
85. Paid for redecoration of White House living quarters out of his own pocket
86. Held first Seder in White House
87. Attempting to reform the nation’s healthcare system which is the most expensive in the world yet leaves almost 50 million without health insurance and millions more under insured
88. Has put the ball in play for comprehensive immigration reform
89. Has announced his intention to push for energy reform
90. Has announced his intention to push for education reform

[no limit]

36. No, these actions (you know the actually important ones):

putting the burden of healthcare reform on middle class families by forcing single people making $8-$15 a month to pay up to $200 a month they don't have
not stopping rendition as he promised he would do
not doing real wall street reform
selling out to the drug companies
escalating Afghanistan
wiretapping americans
fighting against habeas corpus
not doing anything to reform MMS before this disaster struck
supporting offshore oil drilling right before this disaster struck
keeps a guy as his closest advisor that thinks liberals are fucking retarded
after promosing transparancy to allow the daily show to interview Gibbs they gave them preapproved questions

These are just the first few things that popped in to my head, and they are probably far more important than anything you posted (some of them refute your bullshit copy and paste list from politifact). I could name many more if I stopped to think about it.

[NJmaverick]

37. It appears your description of the actions are more opinion than fact

and that the measure of importance is directly related to the propaganda value.

[no limit]

43. which one specifically is opinion? And if Im going to waste my time arguing with you

don't bail out once the facts are clear and you got nothing more to say. I am sick of you doing that.

Everything I said is dead on, it is not opinion. And I know that you don't have an answer because you and me discussed these issues many times before. Each time you bailed out of the discussion when you could no longer dispute simple facts. Yet here you are once again, as if those discussions never took place.

Yes, people making $8 - $15/hr will be forced to pay up to $200 a month for healthinsurance, money they don't have.

Yes, Obama's administration gave the daily show preapproved questions before John Oliver could interview Gibbs.

Yes, obama expanded the war in Afghanistan

Yes, rendition still takes place, so does wiretapping of US citizens without a warrant.

Yes, Obama gave the drug industry a sweetheart deal.

But don't let the facts get in your way, they never have before, have they NJmaverick?

[NJmaverick]

93. You're right I was being generous in the opinion comment

we are talking factual descriptiveness on many of your assertions.

For example you attack Rahm for calling SOME liberals retarded and change the word to all. The FACT of the matter was he was only calling the liberals helping the Republicans by attacking the Democrats retarded. We could go on and on, but I suspect it would be a waste of time.

[SunsetDreams]

80. oh yes let's dump on a positive thread

:eyes:

[jenmito]

5. He was at his BEST!! Even the description of his daughter was funny...

how she's not a teenager YET, but she's growing up too fast for him so he's glad she got braces since they make her look younger. Then he said he got off-topic and forgot what he was talking about. :rofl:

[firedupdem]

17. LOL!

Hate I missed that! Dad's having trouble watching his little girls grow up! Too funny!

[jenmito]

18. He really went off on a tangent with it...

it was SO funny! I hope it'll be online somewhere. It's "must-see" video!

[Radical Activist]

8. This will be one our Democratic pick-ups along with Kentucky and Ohio!

Don't let the pundits fool you into thinking it won't happen.

[Clio the Leo]

14. lets hope so! nt

[DCBob]

20. Should help Carnahan.. its a close race with Blunt..

Hard to believe that scumbag even has a chance.

[Oregone]

32. "That's the guy I voted for"

Campaign Obama

[no limit]

44. Enjoy it while you still can. By my count it will be back to old Obama in under 4 months

so yeah, enjoy the speeches while you can, because you'll never really get any action.

[FrenchieCat]

49. That's not true, and you know that it isn't.

you can enjoy your opinion of him,
but you can't make up your own facts.
Perhaps he didn't do what you personally wanted him to,
but to state that we never really get any action
is pure bull.

[no limit]

50. you're right, he has had action in some areas. I shouldn't have said that

but when it comes to major areas, areas probably mentioned in that speech, actions have been weak.

[FrenchieCat]

54. I personally really do believe that with the media that we have,

and the mess left behind, that we can only be
as good as our most conservative Senator.....
except in rare instances.

That's how this political system works......
and that's something that I cannot ignore,
when giving my opinion on what this President
has accomplished. It may not be everything, or even close,
but it is way, way better than what we've been getting for
the last 30 years.

[no limit]

61. That's certainly true for many of the failures of this administration, but no nearly all of them

We could talk about the most basic things, such as the preapproved questions the white house insisted on before John Oliver could interview them. To such things as Obama insisting on fighting deficits when 80% of americans are willing to spend to create jobs. If he used his speech ability to actually get these things done that would be great. But all he does is gives a speech then doesn't back it up with action. Not in every single area, but certainly in the most important ones.

[FrenchieCat]

65. I'm sure you could nitpick your way to naming some "Failures of this administration"......

I'm looking at the glass halfway full and see many more successes......

It's very easy to find fault. Hell, I have them too...
cause I certainly am not perfect in anyway......
and I don't expect any differently for those dealing with politics,
dealing with complex vast issues and a very polarized emotional "I want what I want" population
full of those who believe the real dream is having 2 cars in a 2 car garage
during an election year.

The Reality of our (it's not as easy as it sounds) politics broadens my perspective,
as opposed to simplifying it and boiling it down to a single word to describe my
feelings of negativity.

[no limit]

67. But I really don't like how you and others dismiss these things as "i want, I want".

It's bullshit, you know better. These are not issues that are debatable, that's why you don't want to debate them. But they are very important issues and Obama is totally on the wrong side of those issues and there is no explaination for why. Look at the healthcare discussion we are having. To make the CBO score look good lets screw over single people making $10 /hr. Look at the deficit commission, stacked with a bunch of fiscal conservatives that want to cut social security and medicare benefits as well as other domestic programs but not touch the military. Look at countless of other issues that he has disappointed on such as selling out to drug companies on reimportation.

And again, you try to dismiss that by saying I'm nit picking. This is not nit picking, these are serious issues Obama and you don't have any excuse for. Yet they occur. And all signs point to the fact that they will keep occuring. Yet so many people, including yourself, look the other way because you want to see the glass as half full.

I'm glad Obama got elected, believe me. President Palin would give me a heart attack. But now that he got elected you can't just look the other way when he screws up, and he has been screwing up a lot.

[FrenchieCat]

72. Are you talking to me when you state..."that's why you don't want to debate "

I am debating....

The President cannot pass bills without the majority of the House,
and a super majority in the Senate...
and he has passed bills....
They may not be the way you wanted those bills to be,
but you are not the only one who wants......and not all wants are the same.

I don't "want" to see the glass as half full,
I just don't want to see it all empty again,
the way it has been for so long.

I don't believe this President is screwing up a lot....that's what you believe.
I believe that against difficult odds like asshole republicans, a media that
might as well be Republican, Teabagging Freaks pushed by the media,
and folks who just knew Obama automatically came full loaded with a magic wand....
it will take more than 20 months to fix what needs fixing (most folks have been complaining
for the last 16 months anyways....), and even more than a term or two (as Obama repeatitly stated, for those who actually listen to the speeches, instead of simply panning them),
it still may not all get done, especially without our help...
not help by tearing him down, but help by supporting those actions he has taken....
understanding that yeah...nothing is or will ever meet perfection
from my standpoint. That's the harsh reality.....period.

Governing this country ain't no sitcom that resolves itself in 30 minutes,
or even 4 years....not after 30 years of fuckedupness.

My sig tells my tale. I'm not in it for fun and games.....I'm in it to make advances...
cause I realize the truth of the matter is that is how it works, and to a great degree,
I consider all else to be nothing but bullshit (shit that sounds easy to do
but really most are not).

[no limit]

76. But you keep ignoring the specifics I am pointing to or you are dismissive of them

Simple things he could have done if he wanted to. Are you telling me that if the cost of the healthcare bill was $10 billion more a year to cover some of those $10/hr workers we are talking about the bill would have died? Of course not, that kind of money is chump change in Washington. Yet because Obama wanted to come out and say that the bill was deficit neutral to score political points against republicans he decided he could put some of the burden on these very people. There are many other things he could do that you can't simply dismiss by saying the republicans and media are assholes. They are because of his own doing. I gave you some specifics here and I gave you more above. There is simply no excuse for them and you shouldn't be so dismissive of them. I am willing to give credit when credit is due on actions. Why are you so quick to dismiss such big and such important disappointments when they occur?

[FrenchieCat]

82. I got it! You don't like the health bill that passed,

and I'm ok with it, because things were already bad,
and were about to get worse.

31 million people will be insured who could not have afforded otherwise....
those would be the poor and the working poor.

You can continue to bitch about the 25 year old making $10.00 per hour
not being able to afford even catastrophic insurance if you must,
but you are correct on this; I'm not about to debate the bill that is now law
all over again.

I'm here to fight the Republicans.
I'm here to help win our way forward some more.
I'm not here to criticize those who see it somewhat my way,
when those who see it totally the opposite are the alternative each time I pile-on my own,
especially at this time; when there is an election coming up.

I learned my lesson long ago; I know that I won't get even close to everything I want...
but I will get some of the things I want, as opposed to getting everything that I don't want,
and having no hope for much more.....
and hence lies the difference with who is in power and who is not.
I'll stick with supporting those currently in power, thank you very much.

[no limit]

85. See, there is you dismissing a important point you cant refute again. It's not about the health bill

I am asking you a specific question about a specific issue in the health bill that Obama had full control over. Earlier you blamed a lot of what Obama disappointed on was the fault of republicans and the media. I gave you specific examples where the media and republicans had nothing to do with it, it was all Obama. You refuse to acknowledge them.

[FrenchieCat]

87. I've discussed this with you as much as I feel is required at this time.

You can see that as choosing not to debate (which clearly isn't true in anyone bothers reading this thread), and I'll see it as discussing things with someone who closed his mind
long ago.

As for your examples, What were they again; those big things that you are disastified with
after 20 months to the point that the alternative of GOP seizing power is no big fucking deal for you?

[no limit]

89. Now you pull out the guilt card. No, I don't want to give power to republicans

Did I ever say otherwise?

I am simply telling you Obama is a disappointment in big ways. And I am giving you very specific issues that are simply inexcusable. You keep saying it's in the past, it's less than 4 fucking months ago (excuse my french). Lets remember where this discussion started, I said that I'm not impressed by a nice speech until I see real action. And I'm showing you how there hasn't been real action in many key areas not because of the big bad republicans or the evil corporate media but because Obama wanted it that way.

So forgive me for not being impressed with this administration, rather disappointed. I'm hoping that I will be proven wrong by 2012, but that hope is quickly fading.

[FrenchieCat]

90. It's not a guilt card, it is a fact card......

and just as good as the Blame Card.

Your examples eluded me once again. I don't see them in your response.

[no limit]

91. The examples I listed are clear

you ignored them over and over again by saying it's in the past now you come back and say you don't see any examples.

I gave you some specific cases where Obama had control over. One of them was that he could have put more money behind the healthcare bill and still had it pass, but he wanted to make it deficit neutral to score political points against republicans. In the process people that already are barely scraping by will now be asked to pay additional money that they don't have. You are yet to explain to me how a single person living alone on $10 /hr can afford this healthcare bill. But because Obama chose to play politics those people are shit out of luck.

And you want those people to suck it up, it's politics, that's just the way it is. We couldn't set aside $10 or even $50 extra billion a year for this but hundreds of billions of dollars for the pentagon is cool. Again, Obama had the votes to do this at the expense of a little political capital, he chose political capital over doing the right thing.

If you want to keep ignoring that then we really don't have anything else to discuss. I have to get some work done anyway.

[FrenchieCat]

94. Oh...ok.....

you say..."he could have put more money behind the healthcare bill and still had it pass, but he wanted to make it deficit neutral to score political points against republicans."

No, he wanted it to be deficit neutral so that the bill would pass. You don't get to decide that the bill would have passed if it wasn't deficit neutral....because you don't know how many Democratic votes we would have lost, so what you are saying is not a truth or a fact, just your opinion without any back up....and it would need it, because I don't agree with you.

You say "people that already are barely scraping by will now be asked to pay additional money that they don't have. You are yet to explain to me how a single person living alone on $10 /hr can afford this healthcare bill."

I already explained to you that in reality, those people you are mentioning aren't covered now, so he is offering them affordable coverage, and if they don't want it, they can pay the annual fee that provides catastrophic insurance instead. The calculator does not take into consideration the Pools that will also be in place in 2014, and it is based on the silver plan, although folks can also get a bronze plan which is significantly cheaper......so we don't truly know what that person will pay as of today, not really. What we do know is that they can't afford single person coverage now. We also know that there are now many more clinics where one pays on a sliding scale; not as many were available before. So on balance, I'd say that this single person earning $10.00 per hour is better off under Obama's plan than under the status quo....and no, I don't believe that a better bill would have passed the house, as this one barely did, and that's with Kucinich and other who are very liberal voting for it. So I reject your argument due to the facts of the matter.


You say, "you want those people to suck it up, it's politics, that's just the way it is."

No, it's not just politics....it is the realities of politics. There's a difference....which is the choice of getting nothing and getting something that isn't really as bad as you are making it be, in order to make your political point.


You say....."If you want to keep ignoring that then we really don't have anything else to discuss. I have to get some work done anyway."

I have responded to your posts, so now you just sound ridiculous, like you've decided to play
the victim card. That's sad, but in the end, it reveals quite a bit......most likely about each of us, and I'd rather be me in this argument.

[no limit]

95. So if the bill cost $10 billion extra each year Obama wouldn't be able to pass it?

Didn't the CBO say there was 100 billion in savings over the next decade? Why not use that to increase subsidies? And you can't possibly think that if this bill cost an extra 10 billion or even 50 billion that it wouldn't have passed. 10 billion and 50 billion dollar bills get passed all the time, they are chump change in washington. Hell they could have redirected some of the tarp money.

And I know you keep saying it makes insurance more affordable to people. But you keep ignoring my response. If I give you half off on ferraris and force you to buy one thats not really a good deal.

[FrenchieCat]

96. You are correct, the bill would not have passed......

Did you see what it took to get moderate Democrats on board in the house vote?

He tried to redirect the Tarp money on a large Jobs Bill,
and had a hard time getting traction on that,
because of course the media and their GOP were hollering
real loud into the microphones that the TARP money should only
be used to reduce the deficit.
Where have you been?

As for your ridiculous analogy,

A ferrari doesn't save your life.
A ferrari is not something you need.
A ferrari is not something you are supposed to have.
A ferrari will cost you more than a couple of hundred dollars per month
if you subscribe to the Silver coverage plan (you can also get a bronze plan which is cheaper,
or get catastrophic coverage which is even cheaper.....and don't get me started once again on the pools that will reduce the cost of insurance.

So Anyways, I don't think that the Ferrari analogy holds sway. Sorry.

[no limit]

101. Let me give you a better analogy, I think Obama likes this one since he originally said it

mandates don't work, because if they did you could solve homelessnes by forcing everyone to buy the house. But that was when he was running for president, back when he was making all those great speeches.

And your idea that the bill couldn't have passed if it cost 10 billion more is absolutely absurd ESPECIALLY SINCE THE BILL SAVES MONEY. Sorry about the caps, I'm just pointing out what you ignored in my argument. Congress considers 10 billion chump change.

[FrenchieCat]

102. I think we see things differently.

You see the glass as half empty and forgot the glass that we had....
I see the glass as half full, and remember well the empty broken glass
that sat in front of my face for 8 long years.

An election is coming up, and DU is a prime target of the media
to get their talking points as they troll around figuring out
ways to keep us Dems fighting (on that merry go round, today we are back to health care,
and tomorrow will go back to the unfunded Gitmo, when everyone will have conveniently forgotten
that the congress refuses to fund its closing, and the day after it will be something else,
cause the point is to criticize everything always.....
Meanwhile they promote the Republican talking points as though
they are facts while giving them a free ride.

I'm gonna continue doing what I do best; fighting those who want
everything the opposite of what I want.....as they are the true enemy,
and therefore they are the ones I will expand much effort in defeating.

It was nice debating with you, and now, I'm on to fight the real assholes that
will would like nothing better than if none of us had much of anything at all;
especially they would love for none of us to have access to medical care.....
cause in the end, they really don't give a flying fuck about you nor me.

See Ya! :hi:

[no limit]

106. You keep arguing in circles because you refuse to acknowledge any failures on the part of this admin

I gave you specific examples where Obama had total control, you keep going back to the media and republicans.

And as long as you refuse to get mad when democrats disappoint you and you continue to support them blindly as you are suggesting we all need to they won't work for us, they will continue to work for their own interests.

So yup, see ya! Just wait till those middle class people find out in a few years they have to caugh up money they don't have because the government told them to, we'll see how your blind support of democrats works out then when elections come around. You can't defend the numebrs I am giving you for what these people low income people will have to pay, what makes you think republicans won't use that argument? Good luck.

[BeyondGeography]

41. "You can't have the keys back because you don't know how to drive."

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100708-713228.html

[jonnyblitz]

69. How Impressive ! Preaching to the choir takes courage!! nt

[FrenchieCat]

73. I thought the speech was televised!

:wow:

Look, His enemies don't listen to his speeches anyway....
no matter from where or about what he makes them....
just like Republicans won't help pass his bills.

[dave29]

103. not all crowds are choirs, not all preaching is for you.

:hi:

[Sky Masterson]

88. I predict that Carnahan smokes Blunt!

At least she has my vote :)

[bac511]

108. I was there....MEDIA LYING ABOUT EMPTY SEATS!

I has the privilege to be in the crowd at the Folly Theatre yesterday in KC to witness Pres Obama's speech in person. It was electric, personal, uplifting and motivational.

My comment is about the 3 media stories covering the speech I have already seen online reporting that there were rows of EMPTY seats in the theatre, as if to imply Obama couldn't fill it.

I CALL BS!!! I waited in line for 2 hrs....the first media report showed 3 rows of seats that were blocked ON PURPOSE for the cameras behind them, so they wouldn't have heads in their sight...the second report showed rows unfilled seats BEFORE the speech even started!! We were all still outside waiting in the freaking RAIN!!!

LIARS!!!! The place was packed and it was amazing. I know we all have our views about his politics, but that damn theatre was packed FULL! I am so sick of the media lies.

[Fire1]

111. Thank you for the TRUTH! n/t