Cuban Jewish leader knew imprisoned American

[flamingdem]

Looks like Gross has a witness against him

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/24/501364/main20036259.shtml

By Portia Siegelbaum

SNIP:

Miller is the first member of Cuba's small Jewish community to admit knowing and talking to Gross.

"I know the person. I know exactly the person you're referring to," he said in a phone conversation with CBS.

"I met him at the Jewish community . He came there more than once," Miller said responding to questions.

Adela Dworin, who took over as president of the Temple following the death of Miller's grandfather Jose Miller in 2006, had denied knowing Gross when asked shortly after the American's arrest in December 2009. More recently she told reporters that so many Americans come to the Temple, she simply didn't know if he had been one of them.

Miller said he won't speak on camera until after the trial, adding, "Let me tell you, the solution to the problem is coming very soon. It's complicated. It's hard even for me."

Asked what he meant, all Miller would say was, "Better for the government to explain everything."

Miller, formerly a constant presence at the Patronato, disappeared from the community in the early Fall. Asked what he has been doing, Miller said, "I've been very busy" working on unspecified "projects". Sources close to the community suggested he has been working with the prosecution to build the case against the 61-year old development worker.

When asked if Gross had offered him a B-gan (a satellite accessing device with internet and telephone capability), Miller speaking in English said, Gross "was trying to play a little bit about that. I was not sure what his real work was, what he was doing."

He also denied "personally" accepting any satellite equipment from the American. There has been some speculation that Miller had taken something from Gross and was going to be charged in the case.

SNIP

[joshcryer]

1. That directly conflicts with reports that the Jewish community didn't know him.

[flamingdem]

2. The article covers this and it's not black and white

what with the information about the woman who did not know about him, for understandable reasons considering the many tours of US tourists going to their synagog and the fact that this witness distanced himself from the community.

Cuba probably has other evidence on Gross.

[joshcryer]

3. I'm sure they do but I think the whole story about them not knowing what he was up to is bunk.

They could get in trouble for saying what they knew he was doing and not reporting it immediately upon knowing, which is why you have them saying "I was not sure what his real work was, what he was doing." Now you'll say they "didn't know" and such because that's what's being reported, but people aren't like that, and I chose to believe through life experience that it wasn't as cut and dry as some sort of "ignorance" of what was going on.

Gross was naive in thinking he could just go around the Jewish community in Cuba and distribute cell phones and other communication equipment without reprisal. You'll note the US isn't denying he did that. How the US is claiming it wasn't illegal is beyond me, though, and I am going to be really vested in the trial if it is covered internationally.

[flamingdem]

4. I disagree and know people who know this group

This group gets lots of support from Jewish groups in the USA and don't particularly need Gross. They have no reason to be into anything anti-government. You don't get that they are supported by the left and have never been linked to the anti-Castro people.

[joshcryer]

5. I never once, not one word, suggested they were "linked to the anti-Castro people."

OMG, I almost cannot take the double-talking mind games that go on here.

[flamingdem]

6. Try to be clear because you aren't at all

Why did you imply that the Jewish Cubans are up to something contrary to what they state? Right there you are implying a lot. What else were you implying? You know that the issues in Cuba are clear so you took a side.

But as usual then you deny it! What a free thinking Anarchist!

[joshcryer]

7. What side did I take? I said Gross' activities were illegal!

Here's how I see it. Gross saw an opportunity to make some money for his business, submitted a USAID proposal, got paid. Gross went to Cuba (hilariously was allowed to disembark his plane with all sorts of "subversive" equipment), went to the Jewish community, and attempted to distribute cell phones and satellite communications equipment, along with other tech (I believe USB flash sticks, which I don't know if they are still illegal or not).

Cell phones = not illegal.

Satellite communications equipment = illegal.

USB flash sticks and other tech = not sure, we'll have to see how the case plays out.

The http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-12-01-cuba-detained-american_N.htm">initial reports were denials, like "I never saw him. He never came here." I'm saying that those initial denials are contradicted by this report, anyone with sense can see that. Yes, they were aware that Gross was trying to distribute stuff to them. The initial reports that the Jewish community didn't know him were being used by people to imply (not prove, imply) that Gross was there for other reasons: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x45409#45414

See how this works out?

Yes, I do believe I try to be as free thinking as possible, unlike some who put words in others mouths and try to insult them with veiled implications and misinterpretations of what they're saying. Along with making stuff up out of thin air when all the information isn't available.

[flamingdem]

8. You just repeated that the woman in the article did know (was aware)

You have no way of knowing she did know or any reason to think she did know.

I get your point that he did contact at least someone in the Jewish community but we don't know what happened and how and what motive he had.

I think he fancied himself to be a hero, liked Cuba, thought he could combine all that and come up roses. He'd been there before and knew a lot so he was certainly stupid.

This guy met him but there is no reason to assume she did. That is not the point, the point is that he broke Cuban law.

Bringing in more than 1 cell phone is not permitted in Cuba, btw. It might be 2 but no more. I don't get how he got the satellite phone in, must have been in his checked luggage but they scan for electronics in checked bags.

>>Yes, they were aware that Gross was trying to distribute stuff to them. The initial reports that the Jewish community didn't know him were being used by people to imply (not prove, imply) that Gross was there for other reasons:

[joshcryer]

9. I think there may be some confusion about the extent to which they "knew" him.

I of course am not trying to say that they knew him before he came or that they knew he was coming, I haven't seen evidence to that effect, therefore I am not saying that they knew him before the fact. All I am saying is that they knew he was there and doing stupid stuff, and that previous reports contradicted this, and those reports were even used to debase a guy who was probably out to do what he thought was a good thing.

Now, if you really want me to take sides? I do not believe that any electronic equipment should be regulated except so far as it goes to interfere in the operation in other electronic equipment. ;)

But that is a moral / philosophical issue, Alan Gross committed an illegal act in Cuba and it will be interesting to see how the trial goes if it is covered.

[flamingdem]

10. Your make no sense

Again you have zero indication that she knew anything or anyone else but the guy.

Then you follow up by saying that the reports were used to debase a guy who was out to do
what he thought was a good thing.

Anyone with knowledge of Cuban history knows what they are doing, and he was not doing more
than helping himself and making a buck. If anything it is such a gray area and his "help"
was so dubious, when has his kind of help ever done anything for a Cuban?

He was another USAID paid for would be infiltrator into Cuba. Just an extra stupid one.


>>All I am saying is that they knew he was there and doing stupid stuff, and that previous reports contradicted this, and those reports were even used to debase a guy who was probably out to do what he thought was a good thing.

Now, if you really want me to take sides? I do not believe that any electronic equipment should be regulated except so far as it goes to interfere in the operation in other electronic equipment. ;)

[joshcryer]

11. I didn't mention anyone specifically knowing anything.

Your reading comprehension is beyond incredible, either you're unintentionally trying to misrepresent what is being said, or you are intentionally pulling an Orwellian 1982 on me (either would be par for the course).

Yes, Alan Gross likely thought he was doing a good thing, that is what makes him stupid. I don't see what's wrong with saying that, nor what's so controversial about that observation (you seem quite upset by it). If Alan Gross was smart he would have recognized immediately that his actions could get him a 20 year sentence in jail. I also said that Alan Gross was getting paid to do what he did, his company specialized in that sort of stuff, and given his actions with the Palestinians in the past, I think that the money was a plus for him.

Let's be real, USAID used Alan Gross and exploited his idiocy. "Hey, maybe this guy really is stupid enough to distribute technology to Cubans!" Now Cuba is using Alan Gross, "Hey, this guy distributing technology to Cubans was really stupid!"

[flamingdem]

12. Read what you wrote

you used the term debase. That is saying something against the Cuban government and in favor of Gross, otherwise you would have stated it differently.

Also you repeatedly say or imply the Jewish community knew something. I repeatedly said you have no way of knowing that so it's moot at the least. If one guy had contact you cannot assume the community knew -- yet you tied that into your statements.

Your way of writing is unclear. Reread and see what I mean.

The other possibility is that you cannot separate emotions from what you write so you inject that and assume others will get you - ? not!

[joshcryer]

13. No, you are wrong. Judi debased Alan Gross with untruths.

I did not make any statement about the Cuban Government there, I said Alan Gross was being debased using information from previous reports (I linked the report and the instance of him being debased). "...those reports were even used to debase a guy who was probably out to do what he thought was a good thing..." You had a problem with me saying the words "good thing" without really thinking what I was saying.

I know that the Jewish community knew he was there and acting there because apparently the very article you link says that some in the community knew that and are possibly going to be witnesses to those ends. The original article "no one knew him" this article "a few people knew him" (at least two), the end result being that he did what he was setting out to do, connect with the Jewish community and give them stuff illegally.

As I said in my second reply I find it likely that the Jewish community, at least a number of them, some significant amount that one might call a community (a dozen, two dozen?) knew him from his meeting them at the Synagogue and elsewhere, and that in fact Alan Gross did exactly what he set out to do.

At this point we're going into circles, and, unsurprisingly, you're still finding a way to be offended, still finding a way to misread what I am saying, and still thinking I am taking sides and "saying something against the Cuban government."