Damn! Damn! Damn! DAMN!!! Obama, the U.S., you & me are paying for the coup election!!!

[Peace Patriot]

First I've heard of it! This is so WRONG! It is utterly outrageous!

See this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x25154

Link to: http://hondurasoye.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/honduran-national-resistance-update-1022/

It's a Rotters story. They must be opening the champagne at that scumbag organization.

[Bacchus39]

1. excellent, I completely support Obama on this one

have the election and move past the current crisis. Not having an election would be the worst thing they could do.

Hey, PP what would be your position if Mitcheletti said there will be no election???

[Peace Patriot]

2. Four months of brutal repression including murder, torture, rape, beatings, tear gas,

live ammunition used on protestors, arrests and jailing for political views, home invasions, military curfews, roadblocks, military checkpoints, the police and military everywhere, suspension of free speech, suspension of free assembly, suspension of habeas corpus, firings of government workers for their political views, purges of those who support Zelaya and the rule of law, arrests and beatings of reporters, expulsion of international media, shutdown of opposition media -- and you think this is all just fine as the preliminary to an election?

And the worst of it is that the desperately needed political and economic reform, in one of the poorest countries in Latin American, with one of the biggest rich/poor discrepancies, and with "the worst Constitution in the world"--according to none other than Oscar Arias--will be completely ignored and smothered with more repression.

The military has promised that they "will not permit" a boycott of the election. That is the atmosphere in which this election is occurring. And meanwhile, everybody is supposed to just shrug off Zelaya's lost four months in office, and his violent expulsion from the country?

Mitcheletti and this Junta should have stood down four months ago. And now we know why they didn't. It wasn't just the Bushwhack assurances that they should hang tough with a brutal clampdown on the country and the "election" will wash it all clean. It was the Obamaites as well.

This filthy coup will not succeed with their "lipstick on a pig." There will be turmoil in Honduras until there is fundamental reform. The few cannot go on oppressing and robbing the many forever.

[Bacchus39]

4. NOT having an election does nothing to alleviate your concerns

or any social problems. not having an election will only exacerbate the situation. what would be the result of NOT having an election? Mitcheletti still in power.

Hondurans have the right to choose their leader, and come November they will make that choice. and Zelaya is no person to have confidence in running a fair election. and PP, I imagine that NOT having an election would be unconstitutional. we wouldn't want that now would we?

[Peace Patriot]

14. They should have postponed the elections FOUR MONTHS, to give Zelaya his full term,

to give the severely repressed and disinformed people of Honduras time to recover and organize for an election, and they meanwhile should have invited the OAS elections group to entirely run the election, starting the process over with nominations. How is that any more "unconstitutional" than kidnapping the president at gunpoint, expelling him from the country, declaring martial law, brutally repressing the populace and shutting down the media for four months?!

You forget WHO has grossly violated the Constitution's guarantees of free speech, freedom of assembly and habeas corpus, and run a police state for four months. NOT Zelaya. Your statement that "Hondurans have the right to choose their leader" is laughable, and typical of the Alice in Wonderland/James Baker mentality that the Junta running an election fixes all this.

You say below that you wouldn't trust Zelaya to run an election. Why not? His only "crime" is that he wanted an advisory vote of the people on whether or not to create a Constituent Assembly. If you believe in elections, why would it be wrong to poll the people on their opinion of that issue? Zelaya is for empowering the people--giving them a voice. How does that disqualify him to run an election? In any case, the president doesn't really "run" an election. A supposedly neutral electoral tribunal implements the election. The president's powers in that respect are largely persuasion and oversight. So, what would be the problem of restoring the ACTUAL, ELECTED president to his rightful office, for the length of time that he has been deprived of it, and then holding the election?

I suggest the OAS elections group implement the election, after that four month period, in order to entirely neutralize the situation, not because I wouldn't trust Zelaya as the president of Honduras during an election. Distrusting him would be ridiculous. The man is a democrat with a small d. And he did not perpetrate a repressive military coup! The rightwing elite did that! THEY are the ones NOT to be trusted.

One more reason why A MERE ELECTION DOES NOT FIX THIS SITUATION: The people of Honduras already voted for one president--Mel Zelaya--and when he became too much of an advocate of the poor, he was violently and illegally ousted from the country. What is to stop that from happening again? The newly elected president will be required to kowtow to the rich elite and the military, and ignore the desperate needs of the poor and the desperate need for political/economic reform--or else he, too, gets rousted from his bed at gunpoint and deported?

The James Baker-Jim DeMint-John McCain-John Negroponte plan restores only the semblance of order, so the rich can keep getting richer and US war profiteers can keep one of their playgrounds. That is not democracy. That is a bloody farce--similar to the electoral farces that we suffered here with Bush and Rove. And it is utterly dismaying to me that the Obama administration, which promised peace, respect and cooperation in Latin America, is using my tax money to fund this anti-democratic absurdity.

[Braulio]

17. Seems to me they're informed enough

They already picked the candidates, now it's time for the pro-Zelaya radicals to see if they can get 10 % of the vote...which I doubt.

When you get to it, this whole mess was started because the Zelaya camp didn't like the winners in the presidential primaries, so they started touting a half baked constitutional reform. They're going to end up big losers, and they deserve it.

[EFerrari]

21. So you think that defending the democratic process is radical

and you blame the victims of a brutal military coup.

Of course you do. I think my beautiful mind has had just about enough of this swill.

[Braulio]

22. Zelaya isn't exactly a victim

Zelaya instigated the crisis by ignoring the Supreme Court and the Congress. The Honduras congress was elected, and it's the third leg of a three-legged stool. So is the Supreme Court, wether you like it or not. An imperial presidency running roughshod over the other constitutional powers isn't democracy, it's autocracy.

If Zelaya is so popular, then why doesn't he endorse a candidate and work hard to get his side to win the elections? I believe this is because his popularity isn't that high, and the guy is just planning to turn himself into another left wing autocrat, like say Fidel Castro (the guy all left wing radicals seem to love so much, but who for 50 years has avoided a real election because he knows he's likely to lose it).

[rabs]

3. This is what Andres Matamoros says

(18,000 ??? Think I will reserve judgement as the claim is coming from a de facto government Supreme Electoral Tribunal member.)

More than 118,000 poll workers have been trained to staff voting stations with U.S. funding, said David Andres Matamoros, one of the three Honduras electoral officials, who met with State Department officials on Wednesday.

“The government of the United States is following a two-track policy: they support the negotiation of a political deal, but are also backing the election process,” he said.

(Has this "two-track policy" been confirmed by anyone in the State Department?? Don't think so.)

------------------------------------------
Another member of the delegation, Enrique Ortez. said the following today:

Según una encuesta del tribunal, 93% de los hondureños confía en la transparencia de las elecciones, agregó Ortez.

According to a poll done by the tribunal, 93 percent of Honduras confide in the transparency of the elections, Ortez added.
-----------------------------
93 percent ?? Uh, don't think so.


Here is a photo of the Hondurans in Washington yesterday. Note the not-so-overwhelming audience:



From the golpista newspaper La Prensa of San Pedro Sula:

http://www.laprensahn.com/Ediciones/2009/10/22/Noticias/Pese-a-criticas-Honduras-tendra-elecciones

[Bacchus39]

5. that would be 93% have confidence in the transparency of the elections n/t

s

[rabs]

6. Do you believe it ?

What is the basis of you belief?

[Bacchus39]

7. I didn't say that. I corrected the translation

I certainly wouldn't be confident in the transparency of elections under Zelaya.

[rabs]

8. ah, the translation ...

Según una encuesta del tribunal, 93% de los hondureños confía en la transparencia de las elecciones, agregó Ortez.

------------------------------
Yep, should have used "trust in the transparency" instead of "confide."

Your "have confidence" is correct too. :-)

[Bacchus39]

9. yeah, I don't know what Hondurans feel about the elections

I think the election moves them past the crisis though. now whoever is elected leftist, conservative, or moderate could also turn out to be a poor leader like Zelaya, I hope not, but it moves Honduras forward past this mess.

other nations will have to decide what to make of it. but the Hondurans have the right to choose their leader not the OAS, Obama, Chavez, Peace Patriot, you, or me.

Now is there concern about the fairness of the election. yes. one thing though is in all Honduras' favor that gives me confianza. neither Zelaya or Michteletti will be on the ballot.

I think I am more concerned about shenanigans by interested parties to make it APPEAR that the election wasn't legitimate than them having a legitimate elections.

[Peace Patriot]

16. "Hondurans have the right to choose their leader...". LOL!

Unless he or she is NOT Mel Zelaya!

:rofl:

[Peace Patriot]

15. See my comment above re confidence in Zelaya.

The people CHOSE Zelaya. They DIDN'T CHOOSE the Junta. So who should there be confidence in, to hold the office of president during an election? The president who was elected, or an unelected, brutal Junta?

The answer is a no-brainer to anyone who believes in democracy, and, ahem, in the efficacy of elections.

[Braulio]

19. Well, the people also chose the Congress, didn't they?

Seems to me the people also chose the Congress, and those guys seemed plenty happy to kick Zelaya out. One serious deffect with current leftist thinking is the insistence on the man on horseback, the saviour who leads the country in an autocratic fashion, gets re-elected until he's 80, and runs the Congress as a rubber stamp body.

It's time for you guys to understand one of the keys to well run government is true separation of powers, and a realization by politicians that their glory is transitory, they get to do a job for a short period of time, and they got to move on.

[EFerrari]

10. The poll is complete crap (must be Complete Crap Poll Day) but

the "two track" meme has been floated by the State Department. I'm sure that part is true in some sense but my take on the two tracks is a little more cynical than this gentleman's.

Does anyone have the goods on the members of this board? David Andres Matamoros, Enrique Ortez and who is the third vendido? Jose Saul Escoba? Is that right?

[Bacchus39]

11. lol they are members of the Supreme Electoral Tribunal

the people in charge of elections in Honduras under their Constitution.

[rabs]

12. José Saúl Escobar Andrade, Enrique Ortez Sequeira and David Andres Matamoros Batson

The TSE claims to be above politics. In article below, trio said there would be NO REPRESSION when the TSE assumes control in nine days of the armed forces in the run-up to the Nov. 29 elections.

(Hummm ... the elections tribunal controlling a golpista military? Maybe. But note that nothing is said about controlling the POLICE, which has done the lion's share of the repression.)

This article was published today, covering events from yesterday (Wednesday).

Diario Las Americas
Publicado el 10-22-2009

Tribunal electoral hondureño garantiza comicios libres


Por María Peña
Agencia EFE


WASHINGTON.-- Miembros del Tribunal Supremo Electoral de Honduras (TSE) aseguraron ante el Congreso de EE.UU. que no habrá represión cuando ese organismo asuma el control de las Fuerzas Armadas para los comicios de noviembre próximo y que se tomarán medidas para garantizar “elecciones libres y justas”.

“El TSE está haciendo su mejor esfuerzo para garantizar las mejores condiciones para que hayan el 29 de noviembre elecciones libres y justas, con voto universal y secreto”, dijo a periodistas el presidente del TSE, José Saúl Escobar Andrade, tras reunirse con líderes republicanos de la Cámara de Representantes. Escobar Andrade estuvo acompañado en la reunión por los magistrados Enrique Ortez Sequeira y David Andrés Matamoros Batson.

Durante la reunión a puerta cerrada, parte de la cual tuvo acceso la prensa, Matamoros Batson aseguró a los congresistas que no habrá represión en la antesala a los comicios.

“No damos opiniones políticas, no damos declaraciones políticas. Solo conducimos elecciones”, precisó Matamoros Batson. Según la legislación hondureña, en nueve días las Fuerzas Armadas hondureñas pasarán a las órdenes del TSE y “cuando eso ocurra, pueden estar seguros de que no habrá represión alguna”, enfatizó Matamoros Batson. Durante ese período, que se amplía hasta el escrutinio de los votos, las Fuerzas Armadas custodian, transportan y vigilan los materiales electorales, entre otras actividades.

Por su parte, el presidente del TSE destacó la naturaleza independiente de su organismo y minimizó las críticas de que este viaje al Congreso de Estados Unidos tiene en sí un cariz político.

Escobar Andrade manifestó la voluntad del TSE de reunirse tanto con demócratas como con republicanos, porque el mensaje que han traído a Washington es que “hay que defender el proceso electoral” en Honduras.

Consciente de que EE.UU. y la comunidad internacional han dejado en claro que no aceptarán los resultados de los comicios si no se resuelve la crisis, Escobar Andrade enumeró las medidas de carácter técnico y político en torno a la transparencia electoral.

Esas medidas incluyen “auditorías, acompañamiento desde la sociedad civil y de los partidos políticos, y auditorías externas”, precisó.

Tras la reunión, los líderes republicanos de Florida, Lincoln Díaz-Balart e Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, afirmaron que la única solución a la crisis, independientemente de su origen, son las elecciones.

Ambos fueron duramente criticados por los demócratas por viajar a Honduras para expresar públicamente su apoyo al presidente interino Roberto Micheletti. “Aunque se tenga discrepancia sobre el origen de este conflicto, no debe haber discrepancia sobre la solución”, dijo Díaz-Balart.

Ros-Lehtinen, por su parte, acusó a los medios de comunicación de atizar la crisis actual y aseguró que “el pueblo hondureño quiere votar y que la comunidad internacional reconozca la validez de esta elección”.

En los comicios del próximo 29 de noviembre, para los que se han impreso 14 millones 85 mil papeletas electorales, se elegirán al nuevo presidente y tres designados (vicepresidentes); 128 diputados al Congreso Nacional y 20 al Parlamento Centroamericano, y 298 corporaciones municipales, para el período 2010-2014.

La reunión de los miembros del TSE se produjo el mismo día en que Zelaya cumple un mes alojado en la embajada de Brasil en Tegucigalpa, mientras continúa sin solución la crisis desatada tras el golpe de Estado del pasado 28 de junio.

Los tres magistrados continuarán su campaña de persuasión ante la opinión pública mañana en un foro organizado por el Diálogo Interamericano, un centro de estudios políticos en Washington, y tienen previsto reunirse con miembros de ONGs.

[EFerrari]

13. Thanks, rabs. Have to feed folks. but I'll be back.

Ack. I was checking out an advance fee loan scam for my mom. This mierda is in the very same league.

[Peace Patriot]

18. "Two-track" policy = "Two-faced" policy. And that is DAMNABLE!

The Obama administration had a chance, with the Honduran coup, to prove their good intentions in Latin America, by NOT being "two-faced," for once, and requiring this US client state to function democratically--not as an Oligarchy, not as a brutal Junta, not with "ten families" running everything and Washington calling the shots. Democratically--with all segments of Honduran society able to participate in their government, as Mel Zelaya advocates. All of their other peace, respect and cooperation initiatives depend on their REJECTION of this kind of corpo/fascist interference by the United States. Who the fuck is running our foreign policy anyway? James Baker? Jim DeMint? Donald Rumsfeld?

The US paying for this "lipstick on a pig" election is an insult to every leader in Latin America. It says, "You, too, can be ousted!" It is a threat. And the "two faces" of this policy are not just hypocritically advocating "democracy" while secretly supporting the Junta's (and James Baker's) plan for keeping the "ten families" and the Honduran military in power. It is worse than that. The "two faces" is a regional policy of telling baldfaced LIES about "democracy" WHILE PLANNING war. The goal is to oust ALL the leftist leaders of South and Central America, and restore US global corporate predator control of Latin American's oil and other resources. To that end, a Rumsfeld war plan is still being implemented, involving the seven new US military bases in Colombia, the reconstitution of the US 4th Fleet in Caribbean, the US military base at Soto Cano, Honduras, the funding of fascist secessionist plots to split up Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela (split off their oil/gas rich regions into fascist mini-states), and the relentless US State Dept/CIA and corpo/fascist media campaign to demonize these new, ELECTED leaders of the region as "dictators," so that, when the war gets instigated, the people of the U.S. will wallow in confusion and disinformation long enough to drag them into another oil war.

US funding of this farce of an election means that the "doves"--in the "hawks vs doves" internal debates in the Obama administration, on Latin American policy--have likely lost the battle.

Obama could have stopped this coup in Honduras on Day One. All he had to do was order the US military at the Soto Cano air base to hold the plane carrying the kidnapped president, when it stopped there for re-fueling, and he did not. I've given him the benefit of the doubt, all this time, that either he was not told about the re-fueling, due to traitors in the US embassy in Honduras and at the US military base, or he did not have sufficient power to stop it. (His hands are obviously tied in many ways.) And I have further given him the benefit of the doubt through all the subsequent maneuvering--including, for instance, the Obama/Clinton team's failure to declare this a military coup, which would have implemented a law requiring automatic cutoff of all funding to Honduras, but would have also required that the matter go to Congress for approval, where Jim DeMint and Puke/Blue Dog operatives were laying in wait to hand Obama another defeat. 'Okay, smart cookies,' I thought, 'Keep control of the situation.' I also fantasized that Obama/Clinton may have saved Zelaya's life--that they were the ones who got him safely out of the country, to Costa Rica.

But all of this "benefit of the doubt" is over, if it turns out to be true (and who really knows, with Rotters?) that they are funding the election in Honduras with no objective controls on the election process, the Junta still in charge, leftist activists lying wounded all over the landscape, and Zelaya, the president of country, confined by the Honduran military to the Brazilian embassy, and subject to constant torture by sound weapons!

No more benefit of the doubt for Obama, and his bullshit about "peace, respect and cooperation," if this TWO-FACED policy turns out to be true. And there will be no more "benefit of the doubt" for him in Latin America either. This was the test: Can he deal with the Bushwhacks within and outside of the US government? And the answer appears to be "No"--either because he doesn't want to, or they have him so hamstrung that he can't stop these war preparations, of which the bloody interference in Honduras is an important component. It is, in fact, the "first shot" fired in Oil War II--a shot that hit a 16 year old Honduran boy and killed him, with the military using live ammunition on peaceful protestors. Protest will not be allowed. Get it? Protest for peace, justice and the rule of law, and you will get your head blown off by bullets supplied by US taxpayers.

[roody]

20. Hear, hear, PP.