Ok on the adult conversation on security and threats

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yes, yesterday I pointed to our INTERNAL thread... I mean one guy was making PETN down the road from where I live... and sooner or later that boyscout, or somebody like him will take a drive down to Lindberg and walk into the terminal, wait for a good line to form, and go boom... No, I am not saying something they don't know. Or go into the local mall and again, go boom.

And we know of four incidents where there were clear attempts to break through the security system.

Here is what is significant about this.

Liquids ban? Ok in a twisted way, to a point, it makes a little sense... no, don't expect most people to know why. Those of us who at one time did Hazmat get it... even if we also get how difficult it would actually be to implement... somewhere some people are pointing and laughing hysterically

Shoe x-rays again it makes some sense... but... see bellow

Here is the problem... both were REACTIVE to a situation that should have never reached the airport...

The undie bomber... well, let's just say airports where these machines have been tested (the nuddie scans) abroad, have rejected them since they don't work. Oh and that was a failure of a multitude of alphabet soups, but not the TSA. These events happened abroad. And it was a failure of not just our alphabet soups but we were the worst since dad told us... sorry on that one Mrs. Napolitano the system did fail, even if not your agency... State and CIA come to mind by the way as the alphabet soups, as well as MI-3 and MI-6... chiefly.

Now the size of the threat... yes from published reports, the core membership of AQ is about 5,000 strong... it is out of that 5,000 that they will get the committed people to take on the big satan... so yes the threat is read... but

we are reacting people... we are not proactive. Why? Well if we started using techniques used around the world based on behavior, which work incidentally, people will scream. If they use these machines (that gotta go) people will scream. The screaming partly now is coming because we hate workers, and cannot get it, that we need a POLICY REVIEW from top to bottom and STOP this REACTIONARY measures that are not all the way. Oh and the right sees this as an opportunity to take all this dog and pony show private, where they will shut up, even if the violations get worst. It is ok when the private sector does it. it is not ok when the evil big guv'ment does it.

For the record, if the cockpits were hardened back in the 1980s as was recommended by international organizations 9.11 would have never happened since nobody would have ever been able to take over the planes. The industry fought it. They have been fighting the effective measures SINCE 9.11 as well.

THis is about money and who is making it. I will say it again... if they privatize this, it will be Elite Security doing this, because somebody has too. And it will be done by non vetted workers, and by badly paid workers, who have no benefits.

So the machines got to go, as well as the gropes, UNLESS somebody has PROBABLE CAUSE, but reality is you really do not need a machine if you got probably cause, you need a well trained security professional.

But understand going back to 1973 or so, when we had mostly no security at US Airports, is not an option either.

I am fine with a magnetometer, (Metal Detector)... hell I am fine with technology to look into my bags, and dogies sniffing on it, and I am also fine with somebody asking me to have a more careful looksie into my luggage since I started sweating profusely (Behavioral cue, and probable cause)... I am not fine with technology that does not work and is pure theater. And that may give me a few qualms given what I know about radiation.

I am also fine with a lot of measures that IMHO are not being done, yes... the perimeter to LAX is pretty much open, and I will leave it at that. And the Preferred Shipper system has to go... those are so obvious holes that one has to wonder if the "bad guys" are just slowly escalating... mostly because five thousand guys sneeze and we duck and cover. But an adult I realize SOME security is needed, but if you are going to inconvenience me, at least do it with effective methods, and don't try to reinvent the wheel.

Oh and there is one last thing. Remember the guy making PETN up from where I live? You think he was the only one in this country with such a chemistry set and knowledge? And yes, some of our threats are very internal... and it is high time we realize the terrorism environment we live in is not just external. That is what adults do.

I expect the screaming to continue by the way...

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. I see an adult conversation is not wanted

this is part of the problem... react by gut and not with head...

What was it that an Agent told me decades ago about adult conversations?

Sadly I now get it.

[TheWatcher]

2. To be honest nadin, no, it isn't.

This seems to be more about Comfort and Convenience at any cost, Party Image and Popularity, go-along groupthink, and supporting The Football team no matter what, because anything they do is good, and long as they aren't the other side.

It's about submission, obedience, compliance, and fear.

There does not seem to be any desire or urgency to approach this from a thoughtful, objective, and reasonable way.

Maybe my best friend was right.

It isn't that Americans don't want to live in an actual Free Country, or have real Freedom.

They just can't be bothered to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Well many years ago an FBI agent put it this way

We cannot have these adult conversations because we have trained people to think we will protect them at all costs.

So perhaps the truth is somewhere in between your friend and that FBI agent...

Alas regardless we cannot have an adult talk either way... and truth be told Americans don't want to...

[TheWatcher]

4. The usual suspects are smugly and obnoxiously celebrating today.

I simply cannot understand the desperate need and almost fetishizing desire for us to live this way, and why certain members spend so much time everyday defending and promoting things that under the previous dictatorship they would have fought against.

It's sickening.

Natalie Portman was right.

This Is How Liberty Dies.....

With Thunderous Applause.

I do appreciate your attempt at this though.

Very thoughtful and very reasonable.

But maybe Americans no longer wanted to be treated like adults, or act like them.

And that, as you say, is a major, major problem, and one of the main things impeding any real discussion, debate, or hope for any real Change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Both are not willing to take a step back

and THINK in a rational way.

As is for the RW this is an opening to attack Obama, and for the left... we should go back to the 1990s... that is privatization... no, not that, earlier.. that be no security.

As I said, we are not having an adult discussion...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. My since you know my history

you should also know this is a union household

You should also know that this is not about the young TSA worker on the line, but very high up at the policy making centers in DC.

But thanks anyway.

As to the adult conversation... for the most part when it comes to things like this Americans expect to be treated like children, instead of realizing that yes there IS SOME MEASURE OF RISK and that in this particular case those machines DO NOT work.

Anyhow welcome to DU and happy turkey day... just remember, speaking about solidarity, next May Day... remember the dead of Haymarket.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Tell me since I already gave some solutions

adult solutions mind you.

Have a good day.

By the way I am on your side... just in case you needed to wonder.

[BeFree]

14. I like the way

...you have, in the past, started threads with the lead something like: "Ok kids,....."

Tell ya what, if the TSA keeps one knucklehead from messing with an airliner, it will have been worth it.

And no, 9/11 was much more than 19 knuckleheads, it was more like a Bay of Pigs op.

[Fumesucker]

6. I agree with you, we need a real conversation on these issues..

But our political and media system is not configured in such a manner as to allow mature and reasonable speech, everyone has to join one of two sides and spend all their time and energy hating on the other side.

Either that or just opt out and ignore politics altogether, which is what about half of American voters do, I can't say that I blame them really, it damn sure hasn't improved my life any to pay attention to all this crap, it's frustrating and depressing at best and very often enraging to have a clue what's going on.

[sally cat]

7. Maybe people think it's a waste of time if we're not going to even consider behavioral screening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. A lot of people are not wiling to try

since this is the US and not Israel... and that includes the guv'ment...as I said, carriers are hard to turn around.... or slow down.

And we really are not having an adult conversation on it either... and there is something to be said about Rush and company whipping this up for POLITICAL reasons. After all, they are NOT offering any suggestions.

[sally cat]

16. You've begun to sound like one of those people. Answered your own OP you did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Nah, people don't want to speak of this in an adult way

yes there are threats out there, NO, the system we have in place doesn't do more than theater in many ways. There are reasons for that. But the first step is to recognize, and adults do that, that there are actual threats. How large? I am willing to bet militias are just as bad a danger as AQ at the moment. You see I take this as an adult... just don't go screaming about how horrible this is (and the machines need to go)

Here is a suggestion, use a hide thread, or ignore if you really do not want to be bothered.

[Greyhound]

11. Can we agree that; Terrorism is a tactic and is not the province

of any particular group?

That there are no military solutions to terrorism and that pretending there is only results in creating more terrorists?

That it has been and continues to be the actions of governments, ours Among others, that is the root cause of terrorism?

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. absolutely

we invented it, oh back in the 1770s.

Like everything else it will come down to either one side decides to quit (Red Brigades in Italy) or like it usually happens... a political negotiation.

It would help if we pulled out of certain places, and did not go back into others.

It would not completely stop it... but it would help.

Oh the places I am talking about are Iraq, Afghanistan and of course Saudi Arabia.

But in the meantime the threat comes down to about 5,000 people that make us drop and roll, (hilarity ensues) every time they sneeze. I really do not want to know what will happen when they all jump at the same time.

And of course I mentioned my neighbor up the road... after all we DO have a militia problem, and that problem has already engaged in ahem, asymmetrical warfare. And it is high time we use the right term with them as well. IMHO they are actually more of a threat, from a threat matrix, than AQ, and it is all geography. But that is just me.

[Greyhound]

25. I don't think we actually invented it, but we certainly did use it to great effect.

However, I guess that the answer to your original question is 'no'.

Once the premise is established it becomes clear that the most effective means of ending terrorism is to remove the motivation and the clean up is a law enforcement issue. Catching the perpetrators is best done through investigation, capture, and trial.

What's left to argue about?

Furthermore, how am I going to convince you that you must surrender your rights in the name of safety?

This is no fun at all...

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Am I arguing for surrendering?

Ok...

And yes in the history of modern warfare we did invent the modern version of asymmetrical warfare. We had that little problem of British Regulars. The Regular army got it's ass handed to it regularly... it was the IRREGULARS that kicked them to the curb. Read on Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox...

Here, from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Rangers

It is instructive to learn where we learned the trade... incidentally the BRITISH press referred to people like him as terrorists...

Oh and yes it is police work... but we still need SOME measure of security at public places, and going through a magnetometer has been ruled quite constitutional since the 1980s. I don't see how they can ride these nuddie scanners under THAT ruling... but that is just me.

[Greyhound]

28. Where on earth dd you come up with "surrender"?

You ask for a conversation and jump straight to this?

Good luck...

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. kick, perhaps it might happen still

[KharmaTrain]

15. Very Well Stated...This Is All Reactive...

...fighting the last war, not the next one. Experts have found many other effective ways of screening...and, yes "profiling" but not done based on race or gender or sexual orientation or religion but on simple cues, such as the "sweats" as you point out. I also have no problem with them running the magnotometer or even x-raying my luggage. I have nothing to hide, but I also don't want to continually feel under suspicion just cause I want to fly.

A simple screening with questions like "where are you going", "where are you staying" and "who are you traveling with" can be far more revealing to a seasoned professional than all the body scans and pat downs.

Lastly, this goes to your very first point which is the most important. There's no sure thing in this world. We take risks just walking out the door. Someone hellbent on creating massive chaos has many ways they can do it. Airplanes were one vulnerability but far from the only one...and with all the attenion paid to this one area it surely means a let down elsewhere.

Thank you for putting some reality into this issue...

Cheers...

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Oh you welcome and happy turkey day

And opt out day was a bust, since they turned off them machines. Hubby and I were betting on this. Gizmodo apparently got the goods.

[KharmaTrain]

18. When Was The Last Time A Boycott Was Effective?

A vast majority of the tickets were sold weeks and months ago and cancelling at the last minute (besides the inconvenience of finding another way to grandma's house or staying home) meant losing most of the $200 or so for the ticket. Most people are in a hurry at the airport...traveling is tedious enough...let the "heros" gum up the system, they've got places to go.

A sidenote: a month before 9/11 I flew out of Logan in Boston. During my stay I was at a hotel overlooking Boston Harbor where I could not only see the planes taking off and landing but also how easy it would be for someone with a small boat to sneak right onto the tarmac. On the return trip, of the two security metal detectors, only one was working and I recall hearing the personnel working it complaining it wasn't functioning properly. Then in the bag check line, the person in front of me had used a plastic wire tie to secure their bag that made it impossible for the security guard to easily have access...they didn't have a cutter to open the bag, so they just waved it through to keep the line moving. No wonder it was chosen as the staging place for 9/11.

Cheers...

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. LAX perimeter is not that great either

TODAY.

Any of the hotels and a well equipped person could do a lot of damage.

Securing that is relatively easy too... CLOSE ACCESS TO THE DAMN ROOF!

[KharmaTrain]

20. O'Hare Has A Lot Of Holes...

A while ago a local radio station had a security expert who went through a dozen ways a terrorist could do massive damage without going anywhere near security. There's a hotel adjacent to the terminals, a large parking garage, a car bomb disguised as a hotel van...even putting an unclaimed bag onto the unmanned trains. Then there's the scary concept of someone with a SAM in a nearby industrial park...things I hate typing about but the threat is very real.

In every case there were ways to prevent the airplane incidents and warning signs were missed. By the time it gets to stopping them at the airport, it's all but too late.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Exactly but we should remember TSA

was formed to deal with the travelling public... again they should have a few conversations with people who do global security.

Hubby and I just shake our heads, and GO THOUGH as fast as we can when we cannot avoid the hassle of flying. Why? That line is a death trap.

[Swamp Rat]

26. k&r

[TheKentuckian]

29. If we had a real threat, the threat would behave as such and hit us everywhere instead

of trying to make statements against financial and military targets with planes and if we thought we were facing a serious threat we'd be watching the border and checking cargo.

Are there folks that want to make statements using criminal and even suicidal means? Sure, but that is no excuse for strip mining the constitution and closing our society.
They are statistically null and those that filter through all layers of clandestine services, the military, and law enforcement would be far less than mechanical defects and operator error with no active passenger security.

This is what letting terrorist wins looks like and it is not being "adult" to figure out how best to wave the white flag to authoritarians of various camps. Actual adults understand risks, cherish freedom, and do not seek to trade their rights for the appearance of security.

You want to be real "adult" make it clear we will blow a plane up our damn selves if it is captured and that their tactics do not change the way we live.

I fear our wrongheaded and cowardly responses than any act of terror and am more worried about a stuck flap or bad landing gear than any suicidal extremist, middle eastern or Reich winger.