Will Michael Vick ever be forgiven?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

I hope so. He just seems like a very humble guy and like he's made peace with what he did.

[de novo]

1. I hope not. I hope he has a career-ending injury. Soon.

[Systematic Chaos]

2. What you said.

[emilyg]

19. That would make my day.

[Goblinmonger]

65. How progressive of you.

He paid his price, seems to have turned the corner (at least not committing the crime again), and you wish extreme physical harm on him. Nice.

[de novo]

66. Not extreme harm, just enough so that he never makes another dollar for playing a game.

He killed and maimed animals for sport. FUCK HIM.

[Goblinmonger]

69. So do hunters.

Do you wish them the same ill will?

[de novo]

70. You can't see the difference?

I have no problem with hunters. I have a big problem with someone who hangs, disfigures and forces animals to fight for profit.

Most hunter I know (and I know a lot) hunt for the sport and the meat. Did Vick eat any of the dogs? Did he track them and wait until the opportune moment to kill them quickly?

[Goblinmonger]

82. There are plenty that don't kill the animals they hunt quickly.

Bow hunting is worse than rifle hunting in that regard.

I thought people on here were saying that Vick was a sick bastard for killing animals for sport?

[de novo]

85. He is a sick fuck. He killed and maimed animals for money.

I can't wait to watch him fall again. It is coming.

[Goblinmonger]

89. Now it's for money that is important.

Nice to see the goalposts move (pun intended).

So is it that he tortured the animals (which I believe is an argument you are losing in the hunting realm) or is it that he made money off of them? Because I have some problems with the guys that have fishing shows and catch the fish early and then have someone put them on the line (after a good deal of suffering) and then they put the fish in a live well. They make money off the pain and suffering of animals (probably more than Vick). You haven't said anything about doing it for sport yet, but that probably isn't a good argument given the hunting discussion.

[de novo]

92. haha. You are in the minority. Enjoy defending this waste.

[Goblinmonger]

97. haha. You committed a fallacy.

Argumentum ad populum. Maybe some day you will come to grips with the animal cruelty all around you.

[de novo]

72. Oh yeah, and on of the activities is illegal.

[Goblinmonger]

80. And Vick paid the price society put on that illegal activity. n/t

[de novo]

83. He is still a sick son-of-a-bitch that I do not have to respect. Fuck him.

I hope he gets fucked over and his career ends soon.

[Goblinmonger]

91. I don't give a shit if you respect him.

Not a very progressive attitude not to mention the animal torture that we let happen daily in this country. Do you eat meat?

[de novo]

93. Have fun defending this fucking asshole.

:toast:

[Goblinmonger]

98. I'm not defending him.

I've said countless times I hate what he did to those dogs. But:

1. as a progressive, I realize he has paid his price and do not wish him bodily harm
2. I, contrary to many on here, realize the double standard of being pissed at Vick but not at the others that harm animals daily.

[de novo]

101. "As a progressive"....Right.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

104. You're right...progressives hope for bodily harm to come to those

who have served the punishment society has put on them for their crimes.

Sorry, I missed that memo, but I see it now.

[de novo]

105. Welcome to the light.

;)

[Codeine]

3. Unrec.

There are already like ten other threads discussing this guy and whether or not he deserves forgiving.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

5. How the heck am I supposed to know this? Geez!!!

[tammywammy]

16. ....

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

44. I obviously know how to use the Search button, but let's be serious...

this is a largely political forum. How many people truly use the "search" button for this kind of thing.

Sue me!

[Happyhippychick]

56. I rarely LOL but this one was good.

[Obamanaut]

26. Top of the page, a search icon. Go to simple search, type in Michael

Vick, select general discussion, last three days and behold - about 11 or 9 threads appear, some even having 'forgive' as part of the subject line.

It's really that easy.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

46. Whatever. See my response above. You people are unnecessarily rude!!

[left is right]

52. I don’t know why every one gets so upset over multiple postings

I never see any of them if they are not on the latest discussion page when I happen to be on DU. I start at the bottom of page 1 and read up. I never go to any other forum. So this will probably be the only discussion I will see about Vick. Thank you for your post

Edited to add
I really hate it when moderators combine a latest discussion thread with an older thread. I won’t click on the link because as fast as the threads move off the latest page, I might miss out on something else that I wanted to read. As I have already said: latest discussion page 1 nothing else.

[Balbus]

4. He's just the best darn fella in the whole world.

And he's really good at playing football, too!

[muffin1]

6. Not by me. n/t

[katandmoon]

7. Not by me. Psycho fucker deserves to be torn apart by wild pit bulls.

[SammyWinstonJack]

63. +1.

[Catherina]

8. It's not for me to forgive him. In his case, it's poor defenseless maimed, traumatized

and dead dogs and cats who need to do it. I feel the same way about people who murder humans. Forgiveness belongs to the victims alone.

[johnaries]

9. NO. there is no forgiveness for what he did. It's all hype.

I'm tired of the crocodile tears.

It's all fake remorse. I don't see any evidence that he is sorry for anything he did, except how it affects his career.

I don't care how good or bad he is at playing football - he is a monster and has no human remorse.

Fuck Vick. There is a special level of hell reserved just for him.

[demmiblue]

10. As long as he has made peace.

:sarcasm:

:puke:

Pathological.

[hlthe2b]

11. I wish more would worry about what he does to make amends

over the long term and not the fact that he is now performing so well on the football field and done a few good things on the short term. Why is it, everyone is supposed to immediately forget about the horrors he committed and the unspeakable atrocities committed to powerless animals? Earning the public's forgiveness is not on the schedule nor correlated with how well he does on the football field, sorry. Maybe most will forgive with his continued acts and shows of contrition. Maybe some NEVER will. But, I do not believe the folks demanding he be forgiven now-no matter what--are being either realistic, nor fair to those who feel forgiveness should be earned and not simply expected.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

14. Thanks for the thoughtful response. n/t

[Ken Burch]

12. I've sometimes wondered.....

Would Michael Vick have elicited the same degree of rage if he'd turned out to be the financial backer of the "Bum Fight!" videos?

[dsc]

15. were the bum fighters killed when they no longer could fight?

last I checked they weren't.

[Ken Burch]

27. It isn't enough that they were badly impaired street people made to severely injure each other

for the profit of someone else and the entertainment of people who saw themselves as their "betters"?

(and, while they may not have been killed, a fair amount of them were likely just left to die).

(btw, whether you meant it to or not, your response helped illustrate my point).

(and no, I don't approve of Vick doing dogfighting...just pointing out, as you inadvertently demonstrated, that he could have done worse with LESS social disapproval).

[dsc]

32. I think they are about equal

The bum fighers, exploited as they were, at least had some ability to say no. They also weren't killed, unlike many of the dogs. I don't think Vick should be forgiven, nor should the funder of those films but frankly I think Vick is at least as bad as the funder of those films.

[Ken Burch]

43. I guess I don't see that what Vick did, given everything else that's happening

as a singular act of evil. Worse stuff is done every day.

And I didn't mean to snipe at you...it's just a question I've pondered about how people, in general, respond to cruelty towards humans in comparison to how they respond to cruelty towards animals.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

47. Exactly! Thanks for the thoughtful response. n/t

[dsc]

48. I would feel very different if Vick showed some sign of

remorse but according to the people keeping the dogs who survived being owned by him, he hasn't.

[Ken Burch]

57. Well, then, he's not worth wasting your indignation on.

He's probably just the sort of guy who doesn't show remorse about anything. There's a lot of people like that, some of whom have far more to refuse to show remorse about:

[superduperfarleft]

68. Those guys are fucking scum who should be beaten to death in the street.

They are just slightly more vile than the Girls Gone Wild douche.

Does that help?

[Ken Burch]

99. If you're speaking of those who organize and produce the "Bum Fights" videos, I'm with you.

You could understand, I think, why I'd want to be sure which "guys" you were talking about.

[superduperfarleft]

111. I read an article a few weeks ago about one of the "bums" who survived

Those videos. Wish id bookmarked it. The guys who sold them are the lowest sort of scum.

[City Lights]

13. Unrec.

I'm sick of Michael Vick and Michael Vick threads. He can go fuck himself.

[Skittles]

17. he would have to try long and hard to redeem himself

that sick bastard is only "humble" because his sick shit nearly grounded his lucrative career

[Faygo Kid]

18. Why do these posts keep showing up on DU?

Screw him. He is worth untold millions, and I am supposed to feel sorry for him because he personally killed dogs in the worst way possible???

I will save my sympathies for others. And quit posting this garbage.

[Obamanaut]

40. +1 nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

49. Maybe because I wasn't aware of the other threads. Again, let's be honest...

at a primarily politically-oriented forum, does anyone use the "search" button.

God, please forgive me!! The world is ending and it's MY fault!! :sarcasm:

[Skink]

20. It's not like he worked for Goldman Sachs.

[CreekDog]

21. did he ask? and maybe we should ask these folks:

http://www.bestfriends.org/slideshows/vickdogsgk/index.html

[tnlefty]

55. Thank you and they are the reasons that I still think he's a POS!

I was reading about the condition of the 22 that Best Friends took in a couple of days ago. That POS hasn't inquired about those dogs, hasn't paid one penny toward helping to rehabilitate them, nor for any of their care.

He's not sorry for what he did, just sorry that he was caught. The rest of us can donate $10,$20, or whatever toward their care when we can, but not the piece of filth who abused them, had them abused, all for some demented "sport". May he rot and soon.

And if he truly wanted this sick shit to stop why didn't more of the people involved in different states get arrested and shut down...he could've given them up to stop it.

He did a little time in prison, too little as far as I'm concerned, and a lot of his abused are still 'doing time'.

[marmar]

22. Even if his remorse is genuine, I don't think it will matter to those who are mad at him.......

..... And I'm not taking a position on it one way or the other. Just an observation from reading some of these Michael Vick posts.

[flvegan]

23. Well fuck, so long as HE'S made peace with it.

To hell with the dogs he tortured and killed. To hell with the family pets he and his shitbag crew stole to train the dogs on. To hell with having ZERO remorse for what he did to them.

Broken in half, middle of the field, on tv.

[Codeine]

25. And THIS, ladies and gentlemen,

is why flvegan rocks SO FUCKING HARD! :yourock:

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. +1.

[michaz]

24. Not by me...ever!! n/t

[williesgirl]

28. I hope never. He's sure no role model for youngsters. I personally wish him

every terrible thing imaginable. I took in a pit who'd been abused following a "rescue" from Katrina. This sweet dog never hurt a living thing, yet folks abused her. I'd like to see him in his own fighting arena with a ton of vicious dogs going at him. See how he likes it. I'm just sorry he's playing so well. Sorry, Eagles fans, but I feel this way.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Right after Ray Lewis

Oh, wait. Ray Lewis and his entourage actually killed a human being. And before, like, everybody was on the internet whipping each other up into silly little frenzies over shit.

Never mind.

:eyes:

[Catshrink]

30. Ask the dogs.

[rocktivity]

31. Should he be forgiven simply because he's doing well?

I'm currently looking at an interview he did for NBC's Football Night In America. He's talking about the help he got from Tony Dungy--who happens to be co-host of NBC's Football Night In America.

:shrug:
rocktivity

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

51. That was not my intent!!! There was an interview with Costas this evening!

[beam me up scottie]

33. Michael Vick doesn't need forgiveness,

he needs a conscience.

Last time I checked they weren't for sale.

[tpsbmam]

34. I hope to hell not. Forgive him if you choose, he's a POS now and forever IMO. n/t

[Peregrine Took]

35. Never!!!!!!!!!! There are some crimes that are deliberative, sick and too

terrible to ever forgive.

[Locrian]

36. no - fuck him

no - fuck him

gee, a violent psychopath does well in a game of violence? huh, never saw that coming....

[Quantess]

37. Unrecommended.

This thread deserves a double digit negative integer.

[Alenne]

38. Mike Vick has been forgiven

by the people who affect his daily life. That's why his career is going so well.

I guess I could go around talking about how much I don't forgive some guy I
will probably never meet but I don't see how that makes me or my life fuller.

I am responsible for the health and well being of over 250 animals everyday. Mike Vick is a low priority and should be for most people.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

53. Seems like so many people on this thread are making it a top priority.

So much so that I'm being attacked for asking this question and for failing to use the "search" button.

DU takes life far too seriously.

[Obamanaut]

39. Not by me. Nope. Never. He's just mean. nt

[Howler]

41. NO!!!!

Nor should he ever be.

[Greyhound]

42. Not in this house.

Show me the multi-million $ donations to animal shelters, the (pro bono) teevee spots he does to educate people and eradicate this heinous practice. Then we can talk about forgiveness.

[tilsammans]

121. I'm with you.

I haven't seen any real contrition from the man. :wtf:

[Amerigo Vespucci]

45. Forgiven and what?

Forgiven and showered with millions?

He may have "made peace with what he did," but that doesn't mean anyone else needs to do the same.

The only issue I see is the reaction he gets when he tries to be the guy he was before he got caught...and I don't think anyone owes him anything in that regard.

He committed a series of monstrous acts, and if he's genuinely rehabilitated, he's a rehabilitated monster. He wants to stay in the spotlight, great. The court of public opinion will follow this guy until the day he dies.

[nonconformist]

50. No.

There are a handful of actions that by their very nature are unforgivable. Systematic animal abuse is one of them.

[political_Dem]

54. It's sad, but Michael Vick is the new OJ.

Now that OJ is in jail, Michael Vick is this country's new piñata to beat on until he breaks under the strain.

I'm very saddened by the abuse of the dogs, but there is a bigger underlying issue at work.

The issue is that Americans are very selective when it comes to forgiving certain folks. There's a double standard. Johannes Mehserle gets little to no jail time for murdering an unarmed man in restraints on his stomach. Lindbergh and Ford both supported the Nazis. Claus von Bulow escaped justice even after his wife Sunny died. Robert Downey, Jr., the ultimate survivor, survived jail and now is riding the crest of stardom. Charlie Sheen gets drunk, consorts with hookers, beats and threatens women, gets thrown in jail and still is on a hit show!!!

Where is the outrage for each of these figures? Don't you want to do the same things to them as you would Michael Vick?

On the whole, I still wonder why people aren't angry with Ben Roethlisberger. He plays football as a QB every Sunday with nary a peep from the peanut gallery while his colleague Vick runs from the pitchforks and torches of the angry townsfolk.

[Sirveri]

59. Well it couldn't possibly be because he's black. Since elected Obama racism is gone from America!

White cop shoots black kid in the back while literally sitting on top of him, less time than Michael Vick. That's real justice.

[Balbus]

61. It has nothing to do with him being black.

He's just a fucking scumbag. Like OJ.

[Catherina]

71. OJ is in jail? I had no idea until now. But whatever. Thanks

My answer to your question is yes.

[political_Dem]

113. Yes, OJ is truly in jail. He was incarcerated last year.

And thanks for answer.

[Catherina]

116. I can't believe I missed that bit of news. Thanks again. n/t

[de novo]

74. Spit it out. Why are you beating around the bush?

You think it is about race, don't you?

You are missing the boat, big time. Vick killed and maimed animals. Downy, Jr did drugs. You don't see the difference?

I am with you on Mehserle not getting life in prison for murder. I am still pissed about that. Sheen should be in jail for his abuse.

But, what Vick did is unforgivable. It has absolutely nothing to do with his skin color. I sincerely hope he gets injured so that he can't continue playing. Fuck that son of a bitch. And, nothing would change if he were white. It is the callous crimes he commtitted.

[political_Dem]

130. When thinking about the societal reaction to Michael Vick, I do think race is a part of it.

And yes, I do see the difference between the crimes of Messers Downey and Vick. However, the larger phenomenon here is the fact that there is certainly a difference in treatment between Vick and other public figures who have committed crimes.

Think about it this way: There is a public fascination with killers such as Mark David Chapman, Charlie Manson, The Craig List Killer, John Wayne Gacy, Ed Gein as well as other serial and spree killers in this country. The heinousness of what they did has been movie and television show fodder for decades without stoppage. Endless books have been written about them. Heck. People go out and collect memoribilia of these terrible people (especially the Gacy artwork).

Even Presidential assassins are put on this pedistal of curiosity in this country. But in that fascination, such appraisals do not erupt into bloodthirsty rage as the public did with OJ and Michael Vick.

Even during the Columbine School shootings, a lynch mob mentality didn't develop with the same virulence around Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold as it does in this country when dealing with the Eagles QB.

Subsequently, Michael Vick, OJ Simpson, Willie Horton and other persons of color who have committed some sort of crime are definitely treated differently than the previous group of criminals mentioned earlier in this post. Out of this entire second group, OJ Simpson comes the closest in having a societal fascination about the circumstances he is involved in. And even in the interest about OJ, there is an undercurrent of fury, anger and retribution that is not found with the men of the first group. Whenever the men of this group are mentioned, a lynch-mob mentality erupts along these lines.

Charlie Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Henry Lee Lucas and David Berkowitz have done much more heinous things to society and still it is thought that Michael Vick perpetrated the worst crime ever. Jeffery Dahmer ate people and he wasn't treated as badly in the public eye. The same could be said about Ted Bundy.

You might be fair minded in your application of right and wrong when it has to do with people who commit wrong doing, but your assertions do not explain the double standards that occur in America when Michael Vick and other folks of color are in the spotlight for the crimes they committed. The serial killers, spree killers, murderers and Presidential assassins mentioned in the second, third, fourth and sixth paragraphs clearly did worse crimes of humanity on a greater scale than Michael Vick. Some of these men also hurt and abused animals as well (Dahmer especially). They also did not have a consicence. Yet, the NFL star is thought of as more brutal and socially irredeemable.

I just wonder why it is.

[nonconformist]

142. You just completey invalidated yourself with that ridiculousness.

You make a laundry list of some of the most vile, heinous, and yes, UNIVERSALLY SCORNED AND DETESTED serial killers and claim that people hold them in a higher regard than Vick.

Seriously, WTF?

There is interest in some of them, simply because what they did was so unfathomable that people want to know how this could have happened, what made them into the monsters they become. But if you think for a minute that the vast majority of sane people are not disgusted to their core by what these people did you are just making shit up to fit your "view", as it is.

This is just too crazy to even debate.

[political_Dem]

144. If I were making this up, where's the outrage for these murderers?

I focused on these particular killers simply because in the American public, their names are synonymous with legend. They are a part a part of history and popular culture. They were made celebrities in America just like Michael Vick was made a celebrity. Yet, the killers mentioned did even worse crimes than Michael Vick and they are held to a higher celebrity than he is in this country.

If they were truly repugnant, Americans would have nothing to do with these figures. But they do and the popularity of these killers are massive due to the fact that people still want to know more about them. That's why these questions came to mind.

Why do people collect their memoribilia? Why do people write them letters? Why do women want to marry some of them?

There's a reason why Presidential assassins, spree killers, serial killers and murderers are treated like celebrities in this country. If people were truly disgusted by them, there wouldn't be a million dollar industry (which includes a museum of crime in Washington D.C. and a museum of death in Los Angeles.)based on their exploits. Why are their wax figures in museums if these killers (including Hitler) were truly detestable?

The problem here is that these persons are charismatic figures. Since people are curious about them and their lives, they aren't particularly shunning them.

If they were truly scorned, why aren't you raising the pitchforks and torches and talking about what you'd like to do to them? Why isn't anyone in the thread outraged and in lynch mob mode against not only these figures (some are still alive like the Menendez Bros., David Berkowitz and Mark David Chapman), but their families in extension?

If these killers were truly scorned, people would be spending their time in outrage and blood-thirstiness over them, and solely not just Michael Vick.

And why did I put Robert Downey, Jr. into this? Downey's drug troubles were scandal fodder for a decade or more. He was one snort from the gutter and two snorts away from the morgue. The stories of his downfall into hard drugs was legendary. In the midst of this freefall, he was sent to prison and not the Paris Hilton/Lindsay Lohan kind of incarceration either.

If it were a Black star on the skids, what do you might have happened? Is Todd Fields a superstar? Was Whitney Houston back into the pantheon of singers? These two had troubles with the law too. And nobody in America has unrolled the welcome mat of forgiveness for them in the same way as Downey and Drew Barrymore.

Linsday Lohan is still undergoing a drug problem that supposedly sent her to jail and she's still making films (Machete and a Linda Lovelace biopic.).

Do you think that Hollywood and the public would still put Denzel Washington or Will Smith on a pedestal if they had fallen into the same dark hole of drugs like Robert Downey Jr. Would they still be Oscar worthy after the stint in jail and rehab? Would they be redeemable?

Michael Vick is a test case whether the American public can treat this bankable star with forgiveness in the same manner as Downey. He did his time as Downey did. He's trying to work as Downey did. But the difference is that the American public is not wishing Robert Downey death and hoping he fails in his career.

Since when was a person's life even lower than a dog's?

[flvegan]

143. Race has nothing to do with it. Not in this case.

It's a convenient discount. Kind of cheap, sleazy.

[political_Dem]

146. Yes it does. But not in the way you might think.

And no, it is not sleazy to examine the racial implications of this treatment of Michael Vick when the uproar about OJ unleashed new insights about race relations, the courts and the notion of justice. In that light, there is a difference of opinion about Michael Vick's treatment by the public when it comes to race and culture. Nobody ever thinks identically to another due to the diversity of experiences and insights a person has.

Like it or not, America is a multi-racial society. Race is a part of all social experiences in this country no matter how hard mainstream society fights to keep it hidden.

[nonconformist]

141. Robert Downey Jr? Why on earth would you compare him?

He had a long, serious drug problem that he appears to have completely overcome, and that is very commendable. He was also never, that I'm aware, violent with anyone, human or animal.

I really can't even fathom why someone who finally beat a drug addiction against all odds would be compared to anyone who has a history of violent, abusive behavior. The only abuse Robert Downey, Jr inflicted was on himself.

I think overall, Americans tend to be forgiving of past bad behavior by a celebrity if and when they have proven that they have changed. But there are definitely a few "taboo" crimes that people will be slow to forgive, if ever. I think that systematic animal abuse and neglect is one of them. The very nature of his crime makes it difficult to forgive, considering he was a wealthy man who definitely wasn't doing this for the money. He was the second highest paid athlete in the country until he was caught. He was doing it because he enjoyed it, and that is very troublesome motive. It wasn't a single, isolated event... it was premeditated, systematic abuse that went on for OVER FIVE YEARS.

Donating serious money and time to animal charities would go a long way in proving that he has developed empathy for animals and truly changed. However, he has not done this.

While some people may not have forgiven him, he IS still playing professional football. You mention Charlie Sheen (who I dislike, btw) having a hit show in your "unfairness" rant, but Vick is still playing football every week and making millions doing it. Pretty much the same thing, no?

Vick has to live with the consequences of his actions. If that means that some people will never forgive him and his name becomes synonymous with animal abuse, then so be it. Frankly it's a small price to pay for what he did. He still has his career, he's still making millions. Oh boo hoo, some people lost respect for him after we found out he had been torturing dogs for over five years. Poor baby.

[sellitman]

58. Forgive a murderer?

Fuck that!

[ladywnch]

60. ------------------------ NO ------------------------------

maybe by god, but not by me.

humble? please. contrite on a good day maybe.

this was not some accident. this was not ignorance of what was going on. this was calculated, deliberate and sick......and unforgivable. I believe he doesn't see anything wrong with what was going on and was perfectly happy with what was going on. I don't for one minute believe he has be 'rehabilitated'. He just has a better PR handler who has better coached him on what to say and do. I fully believe he will go right back to this once he is out of the NFL. It is who he is.

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. Humble? Made peace with what he did? Who twisted his arm and made he do what he did?

He is a sick twisted POS! Forgive him? I don't think so! :puke:

[Goblinmonger]

67. So one of my friends on Facebook talked about shooting a deer.

Shot and hit the deer. They found a good chunk of hair and a good deal of blood. They followed the blood trail but eventually lost it (he talked about wishing there were blood so he could have kept following the blood).

So that deer is hurt and probably dieing right now. Probably in a lot of pain. Multiply that times how many other people that did the same thing?

Do any of the people on here make the same claims to those that hunt? Those that fish? Those that have live lobsters tossed into boiling lobster so they can eat them at a restaurant?

[SammyWinstonJack]

75. Yeah that's the same as deliberately torturing dozens upon dozens of innocent dogs.

For the pure pleasure of it.

For nothing more then the entertainment value.

You betcha.

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

84. entertainment = sport, yes?

Hunting is a sport, right?

So if Vick had eaten the dogs, we'd all be good right now?

Interesting to watch people draw lines so that they themselves are on the right side.

So have you ever eaten a lobster that was boiled alive?

[de novo]

77. Who the fuck eats dead dogs?

[Goblinmonger]

79. So if Vick had eaten the dogs, that would be better?

I thought all the outrage was about pain and torture on innocent animals?

[de novo]

81. Your analogy fails, so hard.

Sorry, you are trying to defend the indefensible.

[Goblinmonger]

87. Do hunters cause the painful death of animals?

Are there numerous times when the animals are wounded and must die a long, painful death?

Do lobsters not suffer when put into a boiling pot?

The analogy doesn't fail, it just makes some feel uncomfortable. Plus dogs are cute.

[de novo]

90. What utility does fighting dogs provide?

When animals are killed for meat, I accept it.

Vick didn't even kill all the dogs, some he just maimed. It was all in the name of profit.

Vick is a murdering, maiming motherfucking piece of shit. Oh, I can't wait for his eventual fall. It is coming. I know it is, and it will be delicious.

[Goblinmonger]

94. What utility does hunting deer provide?

The hunting of deer has pretty much aided in their overpopulation. Do you get pissed at those that hunt but don't eat it?

We don't need to eat deer to survive. We can do just fine without them.

Plenty of hunters and fishermen maim their animals without killing them. Pissed at them?

What if it doesn't come? What if he really has turned his life around? What if he is a changed man and will never harm another dog again? Will you be proud of your pregressive attitude then?

[de novo]

96. Goblinmonger *hearts* dog fighters/dog murderers. Enjoy!

[Goblinmonger]

100. Is that what it takes for you to feel good about yourself?

I have asked very specific questions about your stance toward others that hurt animals to see if you are consistent. You have to respond with a variety of fallacies: ad populum, ad hom, strawmen.

[de novo]

103. You made your bed!

:9

[Goblinmonger]

106. I am warm and comfy in my bed. I have never said what Vick did was OK.

I am just trying to get people to realize that the anger they feel toward Vick is odd given that those same people do not feel anger toward others that harm animals.

You went off the hook because I asked you your thoughts on it.

I hope you enjoy your bed in which you wish physical harm on one person who harms animals but can understand others that do because they eat those animals.

At least I am consistent--I don't agree with ANY of the cruelty toward animals.

[de novo]

110. Oh, I sleep sound and warm, thanks!

You failed to understand, but that is okay. You did so because you have some affinity for Vick or his situation.

[Goblinmonger]

112. I have no affinity for Vick.

OK, I'll be honest and say that he is on my fantasy team but Kitna is out performing Vick today.

I did what I did for the reasons I said. I have been an ethical vegetarian for over 20 years due to environmental and animal rights reasons. So has my wife. Both my kids in high school have never eaten meat. I hate what Vick did to those dogs. I also hate what slaughter houses do to cattle so that people can have their hamburgers.

[de novo]

119. I find it really curious, then, that you would go through such exercises.

Not in confrontational sense.

I appreciate your position, but I honestly think you were doing yourself a disservice.

[Goblinmonger]

109. Take a look above. Post 23. flvegan. He gets it.

As a vegan, I know that he understands the impact of many daily activities of those that eat meat on animals. I would not make the same point to him because he knows it. I would not argue at all with him about Vick (also because I know flvegan could kick my ass :) ) because I agree with him on all points of animal cruelty.

THAT is the bed I'm in. (well, in all honesty, I'm not a vegan but an ovo-lacto vegetarian, but pretty close) It's a fabulously wonderful bed. You should try it.

[JVS]

124. If Vick had raised the dogs humanely, slaughtered them in a non-torturous fashion, and eaten them...

I'd have no problem with it. It would seem a bit weird, but I wouldn't consider it evil.

[Fleshdancer]

102. I'm not convinced you know all the crimes Vick committed

Killing your food before you eat it is not in the same league with what Vick did.

[Goblinmonger]

117. I'm trying to determine the line.

If that deer my friend talked about takes a day of pain to die, how close does that come to the "animal cruelty" scale that people seem to be getting so mad about?

How about what is done to calves to make veal?

How about the food stuffing they do to make foie gras?

[Fleshdancer]

147. What did the dogs endure Goblinmonger?

Just please let me know that you know the exact crimes Vick committed.

I come from a big family of hunters and I know about what happens to deer. I also know about what is done to calves to make veal and how ducks are stuffed to death for the sake of foie gras. I admit I've eaten venison and veal and foie gras. I know about food Goblinmonger.

What do you know about dog fighting and torture for entertainment? I know what Vick did. Do you?

[Quantess]

108. No, that does not equate. False equivalency.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. You could compare it to cock fighting, if you really wanted a good comparison. However, chickens aren't even on the same intellectual level as dogs, so it is arguably much more cruel to dogs than to roosters.

If you really wanted to blunt the distinction, you could start complaining about the living conditions of farm raised shrimp in China. Would you like to equate that with dog fighting?

[Goblinmonger]

120. So what is the level an animal needs to rise to before we care about them?

What if someone kills a person with an IQ of 60 and someone else kills a person with and IQ of 120? Should there be different levels of punishment?

So deer aren't close enough to the "intellectual level" of dogs for you? What about pigs? They are pretty damn smart. Some horrible shit going on in slaughterhouses.

Please tell me you are pissed about how veal is "created."

[Quantess]

126. I didn't say any of that, and you know it.

I actually am offended at the way farm raised seafood in China are treated. But that's a different argument.

Hunting is slightly offensive to me, but at least the animals live with integrity and freedom until they are shot and killed.

Factory farming is in general, very offensive to me. Especially the way pigs are treated. I don't eat pig meat, except for an occasional slice of bacon now and then, just because it tastes so delicious. And of course I'm pissed about veal calves, except at least their lives are mercifully short and uneventful.

How about scientific research on monkeys? (And dogs, cats, rabbits, mice, etc). Those are horrible lives. I can't imagine a worse existence.

I can tell you that I don't go a single day without the thought of needlessly suffering animals crosing my mind.
However, if you look at any of the above instances of (mostly needless) animal suffering, there is some form of utility such as meat or the pretense of scientific knowledge.

Dog fighting and cock fighting is absolutely needless, and with no redeeming value whatsoever. Using animals' pain for human entertainment is degrading to both humans and animals alike.

[Goblinmonger]

127. You and I agree on most everything, then.

The problem I have is that so many people complaining about Vick are the same that come into PETA threads to talk about how much PETA sucks. Too many people are mad at Vick because dogs are cute but don't care the least about other animal suffering all around them. That has been my point on every Vick thread.

Cheers.

[Quantess]

134. That's cool. I usually stay out of threads like these.

Today is an exception because I'm sick with a cold, and bored at home.

PETA is mostly favorable, IMHO. Not at all perfect, but what charitable organization is?

I do sometimes eat meat, but there are so many delicious fake-meat-alternatives, there really is no need to eat meat anymore. Our recent ancestors had to, but we don't need to eat meat anymore.

To me "cute-tarian" brings to mind horse meat.

For some reason, meat eating is a lot less abhorrent to me than some of the horrendous treatment that scientific research animals have to endure. Have you ever seen any of the Malish monkey videos on youtube?

[JVS]

118. I think there is a difference of intention. Your friend was hoping for a clean kill.

Which is kind of the opposite of dog fighting.

[Goblinmonger]

122. That's a valid point.

But people seem to be upset about the pain and suffering of the dogs which there certainly is in this deer.

But, still, point well made.

[leeroysphitz]

73. Is forgiveness a necessity? I mean is forgiving Vick somehow a requisite for

for being a good liberal? Because I must tell you in all honesty that that would be a BIG god-damned problem for me.

[leeroysphitz]

86. WOW. The OP ignores my question. what a surprise. n/t

[rucky]

76. I wish DU were this bloodthirsty about white collar criminals

who have never been indicted, much less served time.

[de novo]

88. I am. It isn't mutually exclusive.

I would love to see the white collar criminals and war criminals be locked up for life.

AND, I would revel in Vick;s demise.

[Occam Bandage]

115. Yeah, DU totally loves the predator class.

That's definitely the vibe this place gives off.

[Nye Bevan]

78. As a dog-lover I don't think I can ever fully forgive him.

However, he has owned up to his crime and served his time, and should be free to go back to his regular occupation. Unlike some DUers I don't wish physical harm upon him.

[NotThisTime]

95. No, I haven't made peace with what he did... you're only humble when caught

[Danmel]

107. I wouldn't let my kid wear a Vick jersey

He is a sociopath & the fact that he gets millions and adulation because he can throw a football is nauseating.

[Occam Bandage]

114. Excellence in sport is not a good measure of morality.

Treatment of helpless animals, on the other hand, is.

[JVS]

123. He is a villain. It's time for him, you, and a lot of other fans to accept it.

Sometimes a person does something so bad that he's the bad guy.

[outerSanctum]

125. Man! He is an AWESOME QB!

He is absolutely amazing.

[tuckessee]

128. Where have you been? He has been forgiven.

Last time I checked (which was about 10 mins ago when he made a two point conversion) Vick was not incarcerated nor is he being barred from plying his trade and earning a living.

Should his crimes be forgotten to the point where any mention of them is verbotten? Of course not.

Personally, I hope Vick has a successful career and manages to keep his nose clean in all affairs. The mere mention of his name can serve as a constant reminder of the evils of dog fighting and animal abuse.

[beam me up scottie]

129. "To a man whose mind is free there is something even more intolerable in the sufferings of animals

In those hours when he was weak with suffering, torn alive away from life, devoid of human egoism, he saw the victims of men, the field of battle in which man triumphed in the bloody slaughter of all other creatures: and his heart was filled with pity and horror. Even in the days when he had been happy he had always loved the beasts: he had never been able to bear cruelty towards them: he had always had a detestation of sport, which he had never dared to express for fear of ridicule: but his feeling of repulsion had been the secret cause of the apparently inexplicable feeling of dislike he had had for certain men: he had never been able to admit to his friendship a man who could kill an animal for pleasure. It was not sentimentality: no one knew better than he that life is based on suffering and infinite cruelty: no man can live without making others suffer. It is no use closing our eyes and fobbing ourselves off with words. It is no use either coming to the conclusion that we must renounce life and sniveling like children. No. We must kill to live, if, at the time, there is no other means of living. But the man who kills for the sake of killing is a miscreant. An unconscious miscreant, I know. But, all the same, a miscreant. The continual endeavor of man should be to lessen the sum of suffering and cruelty: that is the first duty of humanity.

***

"What have I done to you? Why do you hurt me?" He could not bear to see the most ordinary sights that he had seen hundreds of times —a calf crying in a wicker pen, with its big, protruding eyes, with their bluish whites and pink lids, and white lashes, its curly white tufts on its forehead, its purple snout, its knock-kneed legs: —a lamb being carried by a peasant with its four legs tied together, hanging head down, trying to hold its head up, moaning like a child, bleating and lolling its gray tongue: —fowls huddled together in a basket: —the distant squeals of a pig being bled to death: —a fish being cleaned on the kitchen-table. . . . The nameless tortures which men inflict on such innocent creatures made his heart ache. Grant animals a ray of reason, imagine what a frightful nightmare the world is to them: a dream of cold-blooded men, blind and deaf, cutting their throats, slitting them open, gutting them, cutting them into pieces, cooking them alive, sometimes laughing at them and their contortions as they writhe in agony. Is there anything more atrocious among the cannibals of Africa?

To a man whose mind is free there is something even more intolerable in the sufferings of animals than in the sufferings of men. For with the latter it is at least admitted that suffering is evil and that the man who causes it is a criminal. But thousands of animals are uselessly butchered every day without a shadow of remorse. If any man were to refer to it, he would be thought ridiculous.

—And that is the unpardonable crime. That alone is the justification of all that men may suffer. It cries vengeance upon God. If there exists a good God, then even the most humble of living things must be saved. If God is good only to the strong, if there is no justice for the weak and lowly, for the poor creatures who are offered up as a sacrifice to humanity, then there is no such thing as goodness, no such thing as justice.

~The Unpardonable Crime
by Romain Rolland

Excerpted from Jean-Christophe. New York: Random House Modern Library, 1938, pp. 326-328
translated by Gilbert Cannan

http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-c/rolland01.htm

There is no such thing as justice for animals.

[flvegan]

131. No justice, just us.

[beam me up scottie]

136. Yes, for a few, it is enough.

Thank you for all you do, it takes real courage to overcome the heartbreak in order to save them.

[crotchety]

132. BUT

But there is forgiveness

[beam me up scottie]

135. I have seen dogs wag their tails while being abused.

I have no doubt that many of Vick's dogs, after hearing him laugh, went to their graves happy in the knowledge that they pleased him in some way.

If any creature truly knows knows how to forgive, it is the dog.

[Biker13]

150. Good Lord! Thank you!

I have never seen this.

I'm going to track this one down now!

Biker's Old Lady

[beam me up scottie]

153. You are more than welcome.

So beautifully written, so moving, it's always haunted me. I stumbled across it when I was trying to decide whether or not to become a vegetarian all those years ago.

A reminder that there is nothing wrong with *ME*, you know?



You might like this one too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9627124&mesg_id=9627280

[KittyLover]

133. No.

I honestly don't think I can forgive Vick for what he did. What irks me more is how decent he is on the field. Whoever coached him up to throw the football did a pretty good job, and it eats me up inside that he may actually make a Pro Bowl. Why, oh, why did he have to be rejuvenated in Philly???

:evilfrown:

[Dappleganger]

137. Enough of this poor Michael Vick bullshit.

[Dappleganger]

138. Enough of this poor Michael Vick bullshit.

[Lucian]

139. I say we should put him in a cage full of rabid dogs...

and let them fight him. He'll get a taste of his own medicine.

[Safetykitten]

140. Not from me.

[proteus_lives]

145. Are you serious?

Fuck Vick.

I hope some player who loves his dogs snaps his spine.

[SHRED]

148. lots of people riding their "high horse" against Vick

If you're not a Vegan, and you go after Vick with a vengeance,I wonder why?

Feed lots, pork production, chicken coops, and what they do to get milk (breed the cow and discard the males or raise them for veal) are all TORTURE.

Get real.

[Raine]

149. Waa waa waa "poor Michael Vick" FUCK that SHIT

:wtf: "he made peace"?!?! So fucking what!!!!! :mad:

[Bluebear]

151. Oh, phew, as long as HE has made peace with it.

:crazy:

[NashVegas]

152. Michael Vick Killed Dogs. Personally. Brutally. Cruelly.

Guy's a frigging psychopath.