Well... At Least The French Know How To Do It...

[WillyT]

We should have such courage...

Protesters hit streets anew in France over pension reform
Country's fuel supplies run low as refinery workers join strike
By ELAINE GANLEY
The Associated Press - MSNBC
updated 23 minutes ago


A member of the French communist party, wearing a T-shirt of
legendary guerrilla Ernesto "Che" Guevara, demonstrates over
pension reforms in Nice, southeastern France, on Saturday.

<snip>

PARIS — Scattered fuel shortages rattled drivers and businesses across France on Saturday, as tens of thousands marched for the fifth time in a month to protest President Nicolas Sarkozy's plan to raise the retirement age to 62.

Frequent strikes in the last few weeks have hobbled French trains and airports, closed schools and docks, and left garbage piling up in the southern port of Marseille.

But now the airline industry is getting worried, after all of France's 12 fuel-producing refineries went on strike and many depots were being blocked by protesters. Police were called in to force three crucial fuel depots to reopen Friday, including one outside Marseille.

The Civil Aviation authority sent out an advisory Friday night to airlines requiring short- and medium-haul flights to Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport — one of Europe's key hubs — to arrive with enough fuel to get home, spokesman Eric Heraud said.

"They must come with a maximum capacity in their fuel tanks," Heraud said by telephone. "Obviously, these instructions apply only to short- and medium-haul flights" of less than four or five hours because trans-Atlantic flights cannot "double carry" fuel.

As fearful drivers headed to the pumps, Finance Minister Christine Lagarde urged the nation not to panic.

"Today, there is no reason, no reason ... to panic," she told BFM-TV on Saturday, noting that only 230 of the country's 13,000 gas stations were out of fuel. "There are weeks of reserve."

The Ecology Ministry, however, said fuel stocks at Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport — one of Europe's key hubs — were good only until Tuesday and the fuel pipeline to the airport was working only intermittently.

<snip>

More: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39698976/ns/world_news-europe/

:shrug:

[BrklynLiberal]

1. yep. Labor in Europe sure knows how to make its voice be heard...

and this is about changing retirement age from 60 to 62!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The irony. The ultimate irony....if that were the issue here in the US, there would not be a peep heard...from anyone.

There are no headlines about protests talk of changing SS age from 65 to 70!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The introduction of a Soylent Green policy would not bring out protesters in the US like raising the retirement age from 60 to 62 does in Europe.

[11 Bravo]

2. Awww, Hell! I thought this was a sex thread!

[BrklynLiberal]

3. LOL

[WillyT]

5. LOL !!! - There's Already Porn Thread Around Here Somewhere...

Wouldn't want to... pile on.

:evilgrin:

:rofl:

:hi:

[CommonSensePLZ]

14. Ditto

And ditto

[lightningandsnow]

32. Same.

:rofl:

[DemocracyInaction]

4. Cheering them on

..in this country we just slink away to a corner, suck our thumb, and keep taking the beating. I'm wondering if at some point, there will be the type of violence we saw in the 60's?

[bobbolink]

16. Violence is not to be wished for. Most of that was agents provocateurs.

[Lasher]

6. I'm cheering them on.

I wish the US unions could play a broader role in protecting us against reduction of our pensions and social services.

[Mudoria]

7. And in the end the retirement age will be raised to 62

but they will have had their picture taken with a screenprint of a guy who liked to do his own personal executions himself on his shirt.

[WillyT]

8. Nice To Know You Support The Working Class...

I think...

:wtf:

[WillyT]

9. And BTW - The French Used The Guillotine Quite A Lot During Their Revolution

That's why you want to keep the masses happy.

When the small Ruling Class pisses off the rest of the people, sometimes they can lose their heads in the bargain.

:shrug:

[hobbit709]

15. the great shortening.

[readmoreoften]

17. Oh they'll get what they want. But anti-labor scum in Democrat drag can't usually see it.

And anti-labor scum in Democrat drag is why we don't have general strikes here. Or, for that matter, our needs met.

[laughingliberal]

53. +1000 nt

[TBF]

10. Solidarity nt

[uppityperson]

11. Family in rural France are seriously concerned as unable to get to work, school, etc

This is going to pretty much shut down a lot of the country. I understand not wanting to raise retirement age, but early retirement (62), short work weeks, long paid vacations seems like heaven to me. Also by not raising the age this is going to hopefully open up some jobs for more of the younger unemployed.

[WillyT]

12. Exactly... Plus...

If you get to retire "early" (60 years old) not only do you open up jobs for younger people, but the Tourism Industry gets a major boost. You have a younger group of retirees that are generally healthier and more energetic than older retirees and want to enjoy the fruits of their labors. The entire Travel and Tourism Industries would keep chugging away and hiring and employing those younger workers.

Win/Win

Plus... who in the hell wants to work until they drop.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

13. family just wrote they have enough fuel to get to work 'til Wed.

Then no getting to work. Then there is the delivery issues, delivering supplies/products, food, etc. While food at home won't be an issue for a bit, thanks to canning, gardening, etc, work places and products will be severely impacted.

Yes, I know strikes are for a purpose, need to make an impact. Just looking at this side of it also. The strikers will be losing popular support at some point, see who makes it through.

It is an interesting country, interesting systems there.

[uppityperson]

22. working 'til 62 pays into the social security system longer.

I am torn on the strike and on what they want. I am trying to present other views and ideas about it.

[readmoreoften]

33. Americans want to work til they drop. Pretty soon we'll be working in ER recoveries and hospices.

"Work helps lift the spirit of the terminally ill. It helps them feel like a productive member of society. That's why we've invented the 'bed top sneaker assembly tray'!"

[readmoreoften]

18. People in rural France shouldn't be GOING to work. It's a goddamn general strike.

General Strike means no one goes to work except scabs.

And the reason why they have rights is because they'll strike.

[uppityperson]

21. Then the fish will die at the hatchery. The family who owns that will go broke.

There will not be food for people to eat. I don't think that is what this strike is about and shame on you for calling them scabs.

Workers on the train (SNCF) have talked about rolling strikes. I guess this makes them scabs also. Metro and bus services are running at 75%, guess they are scabs also.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559265

"We are not here to bring France to its knees and create a shortage, we are here to make ourselves heard," Christian Coste, of the CGT trade union, told the Associated Press.
(clip)
More than 300 high schools have been affected by strikes and blockades - about one in 15 across the country - as students have joined the pension protests in the past week.

Lorry drivers will decide on Monday whether to join the strikes.
(clip)
Seventy percent of people polled this week think the sporadic strikes will build into a national protest movement like the one in 1995, and over half said they would support it. In 1995, three continual weeks of strikes by public and transport workers forced the government to abandon plans for economic reforms, including raising the retirement age.

I understand what is going on and why and no, there is not an all out strike.

[readmoreoften]

28. Sorry the "strikes are inconvenient" crap is anti-union and anti-worker.

Strikes are intended to be inconvenient. Anyone in solidarity with the strikes would not be complaining about them and giving fodder to the other side. And, no, anyone abiding by a rolling strike is not a scab. But people I have zero sympathy for people who whine and complain about strikes and make "humanizing" excuses about how hard they are on the poor fish hatchery owners (OWNERS) and et. al.

If a nation doesn't want strikes they shouldn't give the working class reason to strike. If we had strikes here, we might save 43,000 lives a year through real health care and we might have a decent quality of life. But, no, even our so-called "left" is too worried about the trials and suffering of a small number of "examples" to join in solidarity with the majority.

It's called SOLIDARITY.

[Hannah Bell]

43. +100.

[reggie the dog]

46. its not a general strike yet

once fuel runs out it will be but currently each industry and each union is having strikes if they want, tuesday is another strike day for lots of people and some are on strike since last tuesday

[krabigirl]

50. My french husband and family agree with you.

[Honeycombe8]

19. I feel their pain. But...where is the $$$ needed going to come from?

That's the same issue we have here. No one wants the age of retirement raised (raising it in France from 60 to 62 is a lot more reasonable than what is being discussed here....from 66 to 67 or 70 or something).

But if we don't cut benefits, and we dont' raise the age of retirement, where is the needed $ to pay the benefits going to come from?

To raise taxes won't cut it...the current work force pays for the current retirees. So when the biggest wave of baby boomers is retired, the work force at that time (you whippersnappers out there) will be paying that huge bill for the boomers' benefits. There simply won't be enough of you to pay the bill, unless taxes are raised (on YOU, the whippersnappers), the age of retirement is raised (that affects ME, the middle aged person who's afraid of being laid off at 62, regardless of the legal age of retirement), or benefits are cut (and that affects us ALL).

The French are lucky. They should come here and experience having to work until you drop dead.

[WillyT]

20. Oh I Don't Know... Let Me Think...

:shrug:

[Honeycombe8]

54. Errrr...you DO know the federal income tax has nothing to do with Social Security? nt

[uppityperson]

68. shhhh, it's more fun to pretend another country has all the answers

to pretend things are perfect and all change is bad.

[WillyT]

70. Not Yet...

And we can definitely take off the cap on the payroll tax.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

23. Raising the retirement age to 62 gives 2 more yrs of paying into the ss system.

No one wants to work longer, but I understand the reasons. One reason against raising it is jobs will open up sooner.

[readmoreoften]

29. They're called the rich. They're the ones who took the profit from their labor in the first place.

They can give it the hell back. The French know that the austerity measures are a shift of the burden from the rich to the working classes.

[Honeycombe8]

55. You understand how Social Security works, right? I paid in to Social Security...

therefore, I get my money back, so the theory goes. In reality, I will get what some CURRENT worker is paying in Social Security.

There is a cap on income, after which people don't have to pay into Social Security, the theory being that the person will never get that $$$ back. (Social Sec. is a pay-in-and-you-receive-back-with-interest program; not a free gift program.) Sooooo, they could raise the cap, which would hit the wealthier. But in reality, it would mainly hit blue collar workers who work a lot of overtime in a given year. The REALLY rich will still cap out (of course, they'll end up paying more, up to the amount of the cap).

Raising the cap is being discussed. And that's called raising Social Security tax, which I mentioned. It may not be enough, though. There's a heck of a lot of baby boomers on the brink of retirement (voluntary or forced).

[Greyhound]

62. Over 3 years and 6,600 post and you've managed to miss every one of the

several hundred pieces posted about how this "inevitable collapse" of SS is nothing but misinformation to scam you?

And the thread is about how the French are not as servile and gullible.

[reggie the dog]

47. why is there less money???

because the govt about 10 years ago started lowering the fees paid into retirement and health care BY BUSINESS OWNERS! the owners pay less and we work more??? fuck that, we go on strike, perhaps begin to sabatoge the infrastructre, and bring the govt to their knees, i will be on the strike line tuesday as my union has just been calling for 1 day strikes but once the gasoline runs out i will be forced to ride my bike to the demonstrations!

[Tsiyu]

52. take care reggie

some day American labor will get sick of its lot.

Til then we watch the grownups in other countries demand what's fair... while we wonder about it all...until most everyone in this country has nothing.

[Honeycombe8]

56. I have never heard that. Are you SURE Social Sec tax was decreased for businesses?

I hadn't heard that.

Anyway, there's going to be a shortage in Social Security because it's simple math:

The baby boomers is a huge # of people, all doing certain things during certain decades. This has been great for business...they increased car sales during certain decades, they increased home sales during certain decades, and now that tsunami of people are retiring.

Now, the people who get Social Security don't get what THEY paid in to Soc Sec. They get what CURRENT workers are paying in. The current retirees' taxes went to pay the SS benefits of the prior generation.

There are fewer workers each decade after the baby boomers retire. Also consider outsourcing of jobs. Fewer workers = less taxes paid into Social Security. Just at the time of the heaviest burden on SS benefits, there will be a shrinking number of people to pay those benefits.

Add the bad economy. Less interest for the Social Security fund to get, while building to pay benefits.

Plus....Bush "borrowed" the Social Security Fund. The fed govt is paying it back, if it hasn't already, but that didn't help.

That's my understanding.

[reggie the dog]

59. there are lots of factors

there were 6 baby boomers for 2 parents now there are about 3 kids for 2 parents, this means that workers and owners need to pay more to keep the system afloat so when there were reforms about ten years ago now, that reduced what owners paid into health care and retirement that was the wrong way to go, now they tell us that we have to pay more but it is out of question that the owners pay what they paid before much less paying more

[Honeycombe8]

57. I did a few searches, and find nothing to say that businesses' soc sec taxes decreased

in the last 10 years. Do you have a link for that?

[reggie the dog]

60. i will try to find it but cant look until around 6pm here in france

basically what you are looking for are plans that have reduced the "charge sociale du patronat" social security is the health plan here in france (sécurité sociale) and i will find a link showing how the budget shortfall there is due to owners paying less, the owners union is called the MEDEF and they push for such reforms, the other unions have had tracts showing how the owners pay less and that is why money is short, like i said i will reserach that this evening

[reggie the dog]

61. here is the current scheme

as of 1 jan 2010 i will try to find an older one later to compare figures

http://www.net-iris.fr/indices-taux/4-cotisations-sociales-taux-et-assiettes-des-charges.php

[Curmudgeoness]

24. Reading through these comments so far, I see just why the US

cannot stand together against any arbitrary laws that the government imposes on us. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Where will the money come from? What about all the people who are put in a difficult situation? We just cannot hurt anyone.

And as to the people not able to get to work (which is necessary if animals or fish or whatever will die), I find it hard to believe that there was no warning that this was coming. They could have found a way to get some gas stockpiled if there use of it was to be considered an emergency.

[WillyT]

25. Yep... As Far As Standing Up To The Powers That Be...

We the People, pretty much suck.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

26. Bless you for caring and understanding how it is vs the romanticized notion

of how it "should" be.

But then my relatives think raising the retirement age to 62 is fine. They are ok with having people pay into the social security system for a couple more yrs rather than taking out. Of course, they also like the month paid vacation and short workweek there too. And the health care system that is paid for by their high taxes.

[Curmudgeoness]

27. I see this more as a matter of principle. First it is taking a few years

from retirement, then it is a few more years. Then it is cuts in this and cuts in that. We should all be pissed about how our rights are eroded, Social Security that we have been promised is in danger of being destroyed, stagnant working class wages.

And higher taxes or higher premiums to private insurance companies, it doesn't really matter. The money has to come out of our pockets either way.

[uppityperson]

35. They also worry about the principle but understand that change can be ok

This is about France, don't see they having higher premiums, etc. Though I do agree that retirement benefits (social security) does need to come from somewhere, which is why having people pay in 'til 62 vs 60 works for my relatives.

[Curmudgeoness]

36. Give them an inch, they take a hundred miles. nt

[WillyT]

37. Yep... 62 This Year, Then Down The Line 65, 68, 70, 72...

The French are not stupid, and they want to nip this trend in the bud.

In any case... they don't want to end up like us.

:shrug:

[readmoreoften]

31. Yeah, because you know better than the ENTIRE FUCKING WORKING CLASS OF FRANCE.

The reason why they have paid month vacations and short workweeks is because of STRIKES. Oh! The raising of the retirement age "works for them"--what solidarity! What about the people it DOESN'T WORK FOR: like industrial workers in dangerous jobs, transportation workers, cleaning and maintenance teams?

[uppityperson]

34. Wtf? Transportation workers, industrial workers, cleaning/maint teams get the same benefits

as do other workers. Even using caps "the ENTIRE FUCKING WORKING CLASS OF FRANCE" does not agree with what is happening. As evidenced by what my family members, who are "FUCKING WORKING CLASS in FRANCE" say. I am not speaking for "the ENTIRE" but saying what some of those "FUCKING WORKING CLASS" tell me. You seem to have a problem with that.

Are you seriously saying "industrial workers in dangerous jobs, transportation workers, cleaning and maintenance teams" don't get month vacation and short workweeks? Huh. Or are you saying janitors should have more vacation time than, say, farmers or teachers? Huh again.

[Curmudgeoness]

38. My understanding of what was suggested is

that there are jobs that are harder and harder to continue the older you get. You know, like all our politicians who just sit on their asses all day can tell a welder or lineman that he should have to work until he is 70. I am still ten years away from Social Security benefits, and I can tell you that arthritis is starting to make my work (at a desk) harder every day.

[uppityperson]

39. Here's some info I found on what is being proposed. I definitely see problems with the

40.5 or 41.5 yrs working. I'd like to see that lowered as that seems like a lot.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/10/2010101210591839659.html

[Curmudgeoness]

40. OK, so you are against unions and workers, with a ton of excuses

for it. Strikes are the last thing anyone wants. They do hurt people. All people. The strikers don't get paid. The people do not get whatever they produce. It hurts everyone. But that is no reason to just bend over.

Oh, and I loved the "info" site, of all places you could find info---a giant ad at the top saying "Injustice in the age of Obama". I have learned more than that on the French news on PBS.

[uppityperson]

41. Beware, you are going to sprain something jumping to those conclusions.

You don't like al jazeera news? Huh. It was the first one I googled. Guess you don't like Cindy Sheehan since that was who wrote that. Huh again. Guess you don't like the fact that I support some of what they are protesting about but disagree with some of it. Oh Kay.

Go ahead and post some other info and sites on what specifically is proposed, if al jazeera (with an article by Cindy Sheehan) is too something for you.

:eyes:

[Doremus]

48. How do you think they got the month paid vacation and short workweek that they love so much?

It wasn't a gift from kind-hearted CEOs, I assure you.

When the struggle for improved working conditions was taking place how many said "Oh, we think 2 weeks' vacay is fine; we are okay with having people work longer...."

Apparently not enough people felt that way to screw it up for those who *weren't* okay with it .....


Sorry, I have no sympathy for those who put their own convenience above everyone else's. None. Probably because that's precisely how we got into this mess here at home.

[uppityperson]

49. I know that and I understand the chipping away at benefits fears.

First off, it isn't a General Strike yet. For those who say it is, it isn't yet.

Secondly, this is different from the usual strikes they have which are generally planned in advance to strike, for example, every other Wednesday for a 8 weeks.

Those are pieces of information that I am sharing that my family there has shared with me. If posters want to think badly of me for sharing this, or what my family says about it all, that is their right but I'd prefer they look at this as I am trying to pass on some info and some local's opinions. I don't live in France. I live here and have a lot of the same concerns, and more, and different, than my French relatives have.

Now, to your reply. I know why they have such good benefits and well understand the fears of chipping away at them. I also know of the high unemployment and rabid bigotry around France. Lack of jobs, increasing population including immigration from former French colonies (and Roma) combine to create a volatile mix for some. There is controversy on this strike, on what is being asked for. Not all French are in agreement and no, it isn't by political party (meaning no, it's not just their version of repubs trying to force this on the dems). What I hear from family is people are all over the board about this.

One of the thoughts of raising the age of retirement from 60 to 62 for Early is that the person would pay into their social security for a couple more yrs and there would be more money available in the mix. One of the thoughts about not raising it is this would open up jobs sooner to others.

I have a few questions for all who have called "scab!" at me, or said they have no sympathy for those who "put their own convenience above everyone else's" etc, is change ever good? Is change ever right? Is it ok to disagree without being called these names? Or is going along with what is being protested always the thing to do?

[readmoreoften]

30. + 1,000,000,000. We've become a nation of strikebreakers, company men, and scabs.

Apologists for the rich. And that's the so-called LEFT in this country.

It's a scandal that this thread is being voted down while people whine and argue about electing savior politicians and supermen who can save us from the right-wing bogeymen that they just turn around and "bipartisan" with anyway.

We've become a nation of rabid thugs and panicking cowards. Grow a spine and get in the fucking streets. (And yes, I take my own advice, thanks.)

[uppityperson]

42. "voted down" to 24? Are you calling those of us who disagree with some of this apologists for the

rich, etc?

Are you telling me that the direct report I heard about fuel is that there is enough where my family is for only a few more days not ""Today, there is no reason, no reason ... to panic," she told BFM-TV on Saturday, noting that only 230 of the country's 13,000 gas stations were out of fuel. "There are weeks of reserve."" is a lie? Or maybe a whine?


Or are you just trying to insult my working class relatives?

[Honeycombe8]

58. Yes, this shortfall has been known to be coming for years. Why it hasn't

been solved:

1. Actually, it was. Before Bush, it was on the road to being able to meet its benefits debt for the boomers, as I recall. I'm not sure what happened, besides Bush "borrowing" the Social Security fund for other purposes. Fewer workers = less $ going in than anticipated. Bad economy. Not sure.

2. Every time the govt starts to talk about solving the problem, people scream about it (including me). No one wants the Soc Sec tax to go up, the age of retirement to go up, or benefits to decrease. But those are the choices, basically. So we still have the problem.

I hate to say it. It gets me depressed, since retirement is looming in front of me (within a decade, I hope). I don't have time to save much more before retirement. I hope people in my age range will be grandfathered in to the old system.

[B Calm]

44. The people in this country are so damn dumb. They sit back and

shoot themselves in the foot just to entertain the rich.

[glowing]

45. Think about the size of France.. then think about the vast size of our country.

It is soooo much harder to rally people... and then will the media even cover it? You could have 2.3 million show up in DC or NY or LA or Houston or Miami.. media is a 2 min blurb and maybe one protestor. And all that marching does nothing. They figured out how to stop the march by making it obsolete... Stewert and Colbert are going to have more success with media coverage and attendance at their rally because they give voice to it all the time... and the other cable news channels talk about it all the time.

[maryf]

51. K&R plus more at this thread, great pix et al

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9334923

[old mark]

63. Americans have been complaicent, and ignorant. Many of us believe it is

un American to strike or to advocate for more than the employers are willing to grant us. I have no idea why or when this came about, but it is disgusting to me...there was a vibrant workers/union movement that has been pretty much destroyed since the 1940's, and I want it back...but I doubt I will ever see it.


mark

[Bragi]

64. Americans are taught to blame themselves

If someone ships your job overseas, loots your savings, steals your pension, forecloses on your home, then an American is taught and socialized to believe that this happens becuase they personally just aren't smart enough, haven't worked hard enough, etc, etc. and are responsible for their own plight.

It's the flip side of the "you can be anything" crap drilled into Americans at home, a school, in the media, everywhere. It's what makes Americans among the most docile and complacent people anywhere.

[old mark]

65. Right the old - every boy can become president and everyone can become rich

American bullshit...If you are not rich, you failed.

This is a big reason we have so many suicides and so much violence here, too.

mark

[Nye Bevan]

66. Absolutely. Only old-moneyed WASPs from rich families have a realistic shot at becoming President.

[blindpig]

67. Or...

willing apparatchiks who will follow the program for a seat at the big table.

[Taverner]

69. Arise, you prisoners of starvation!

Arise, you prisoners of starvation!
Arise, you wretched of the earth!
For justice thunders condemnation:
A better world's in birth!
No more tradition's chains shall bind us,
Arise you slaves, no more in thrall!
The earth shall rise on new foundations:
We have been nought, we shall be all!
'Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The internationale
Shall be the human race
'Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The international working class
Shall be the human race

Liberté, égalité, fraternité!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYxQQbZim8I&feature=related

[SoCalDem]

71. The legislation is still chugging along, behind closed doors

Their recourse is to toss Sarkozy out, and get a new president who will try to UNdo the damage.. But it's always easier to ask forgiveness, than permission, so the new changes will probably remain, to the chagrin of the populace.

[mikeSchmuckabee]

72. The French kick ass! They have the most civilized strikes.

I was there in '03. The metro was on a one day strike. Their were plenty of workers, but they wouldn't sell me a ticket. But they wouldn't leave me twisting in the wind and showed me how to use the ticket vending machine. It was a very convenient strike, and the workers acted like people not strikers.