America began as a haven for those seeking freedom from religious persecution

[DainBramaged]

and how ironic it is that the descendants of those same Christians, looking to escape persecution in England, now practice the persecution of Islam that celebrates the same God they do, just differently, just like their ancestors.


How far around the circle has come. And how sad for America.

[VioletLake]

1. "America" began as a business venture. nt

[DainBramaged]

4. Right, the Pilgrims started turkey farms, I get it.

:eyes:

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. Who said anything about the Pilgrims?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Company

[VioletLake]

21. Thank you, Spider Jerusalem.

Columbus' voyage was also a business venture, one that succeeded in unforeseen ways, and failed in predictable ones.

[DainBramaged]

26. Like I just posted, your insistence on worrying about historical perfection

overlooked the fact that the Muslims are being persecuted. Now I really know what DU is about. Thanks!Have a nice day.

[VioletLake]

33. Your insistence on historical fiction

leads to fantasies about Puritan Christians of the 17th century befriending Muslims, and inviting them as equals to settle in "America".

Bye. :hi:

[enlightenment]

10. The 'Pilgrims' started one of the several colonies -

they didn't found "America". You make poorly-informed comments, someone is bound to point them out - and a snarky reply doesn't make you right.

[DainBramaged]

15. OK, I be quiet massa.....

:evilgrin:

and where did I say 'found'?

[VioletLake]

20. She means found as in founder, not as in discover.

What's with the disingenuous slave talk?

[DainBramaged]

22. Flounder?

[stopbush]

2. Actually, the Xians who fled what they considered to be persecution of their sect

reserved the right to persecute other Xian sects/beliefs once they got to the New World.

This being religion, there is no circle to come full circle - it's more of a straight and unwavering line of self-serving bullshit called "faith."

[DainBramaged]

6. Maybe I should have just titled the thread, 'Bash all religions, come one and all'

:mad:

[stopbush]

16. That woulda worked for me.

:)

You need to get your history straight if you're trying to make a historical point.

[DainBramaged]

17. I know, I am not surprised to see you here.

[stopbush]

18. Last I looked this was an open board.

Sorry if you don't like the heat generated in the marketplace of ideas.

[DainBramaged]

19. Ahhh, keeps my wrinkled old ass nice and warm........

To bad you don't like religion.....you act like the opressive Christians....

[Skink]

3. The brits needed someplace for there slave labor.

[DainBramaged]

7. (sigh) this is becoming truly inspirational

Their slaves came from Africa, their prisoners were sent to Australia.........been reading those Freeper history books I see.

[hobbit709]

11. They didn't send them to Australia until after our revolution.

[hobbit709]

5. And as soon as they got here they started persecuting anyone who didn't believe

exactly like them. They didn't want to be persecuted for their beliefs but it was perfectly acceptable for them to persecute others who thought different. Look up Roger Williams.

[Jamastiene]

9. While I agree with the basic point of your OP,

I think it is important to point out that Islam is not the first religion to be persecuted in America.

It started when they got here and hasn't quit since. From the stealing of Native American children from their families to be put into Christian "indian schools" to the Salem witch trials and onward. With even more religious persecution of anyone not right wing Christian enough in between, it hasn't stopped since they set foot on the soil that is now America.

Sadly, it probably never will.

[DainBramaged]

13. Irony, something which escapes DU on a regular basis

And yes, the Jews would argue for a place on that list.

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. Can you prove any of that?

Specifically, that people who "persecute" Islam (itself laughable) can trace their roots back to England?

I seriously doubt it.

[DainBramaged]

14. You looking for brain tuners again? Or is it thought mechanics you need?

And why oh why do you want proof for such a simple musing?

[Goblinmonger]

23. They came here because the though the church in England was too liberal

We got the people that didn't want to hang around during the Renaissance. They were uptight and very quick to kill those that weren't their religion. They killed the heathen natives and the Quakers.

I know you're going to get all pissy with me about bashing religion, but your historical perspective on this is just wrong. They came here for THEIR religion freedom, not the religious freedom of others.

[DainBramaged]

24. That was the point, their religious freedom and how the Muslims are being treated

So simple, yet so many of you want to make it complicated. And what is amazing, is that NONE of you even commented about how the Muslims are being treated, only that the 'correct' historical perspective be noted to my OP. How sad.


DU, the older I get, the more twisted it gets,


later folks, your paranoia over history is way to creepy for even me.

[Goblinmonger]

31. But why are you shocked now?

Your OP makes it seem like this is a new thing. All most of us are reacting to is the fact that this has been going on for 400 years. They killed Quakers for god's sake. Why should I now be shocked that somehow Muslims are a target?

Muslims are being treated like shit. So am I (an atheist). I hope it stops soon. I'm not holding my breath.

[Caliman73]

37. Yes, it is horrible that Muslims are being treated unfairly. Your history however, is not correct.

Your point is factually incorrect as the other poster stated. The Puritans, and I say this only about the Puritans, were upset that the Church of England was restored. They wanted to form a theocratic government in England based on their interpretation of scripture. They came to the colonies to set up their "godly state" and they had their colonial charter revoked for religious prosecution.

Intolerance is bad at any level. It is disgraceful that people are being targeted and discriminated for being Muslim.

The point is made stronger when facts support what you state. There is a perception that the US is a land of freedoms and equality but the actual history does not bear that out. That is the point of the disagreement.

[Skink]

27. I think you mean Librul.

[Goblinmonger]

32. My apologies. You are correct. n/t

[spanone]

25. hard to wrap one's head around, ain't it DB

[Gman]

28. Could it be that these "Pilgrims" were actually considered religious nuts in their day?

And were "persecuted" and ridiculed for being so? And they left and came here so they could be as nuts as they wanted to be?

Australia got the criminals, we got the Pilgrims. I often wonder what this country would look like were those events reversed.

[superduperfarleft]

29. That's as warped and wrongheaded an interpretation of history

as the idea that the Tea Party was an anti-tax movement.

Historical ignorance for the win!

[Caliman73]

30. I understand what you are saying, but somewhat disagree with the statement

It is true that some people came to America seeking religious freedom. The story stumbles from there though. The Puritans settled the New England colonies and quickly began persecuting other religious groups, most notably Quakers and Catholics. The persecution was such that The English Crown revoked the charter of the Massachusetts Bay colony and put a royal governor in charge to make sure religious freedom was respected.

The one thing that the United States historically had over it European brethren has been a separation of church and government, but I think that is not as relevant today. There has always been tension regarding religion encroaching on government however, and recently the conservative christian movement has been trying to impose a more theocratic society by infiltrating government.

[hayu_lol]

34. There were two classes of people in the first few shiploads...

Puritans(blue noses)and Pilgrims(those who made casks, beer, and other items for shipment back to England)...these were the regular people.

People have tended to forget and use the terms Puritans/Pilgrims rather loosely. In 17 more years, my family will have been here 400 years(Bay Colony).

[Caliman73]

36. I definitely meant Puritans.

The people settling the colonies were diverse. I understand the distinction between the Pilgrims, Puritans, and other groups. The Puritans themselves were not one monolithic group. There were several factions who were at odds with each other at times. Puritans however, were the early power base of the colony and the cause of the revocation of the charter due to several high profile situations like the Salem trials and the public hanging of a Quaker dissident that displayed the level of religious intolerance. Pennsylvania on the other hand was known for fairly liberal views on religion as it was founded by Quakers.

The OP stated that the United States was founded on the principles of religious freedom and I just countered that view of history by offering examples where that was not played out.

[LeftinOH]

35. The executed "witches" in Salem were the victims of religious freedom. n/t