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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 02:28 PM
Original message
Presidential pretzels and anger of the GLBT community.
DU has spent a considerable amount of energy focusing on the President's formula of being both for absolute equal rights for all, his support for 'marriage compatible' civil unions and his 'spoken' opposition to same sex marriage.

This is a good thing. It is the messy part of the Democratic Party, its' conscience wrestling with itself.

Some supporters of the President have tried to paper over the President's position in order to diminish the inconsistencies.

Given that 'Brown versus the Board of Education' has already established that ANY separation is an inherent diminution of status it must be accepted that the President's position lacks 'consistency' and we should not try to defend it.

The President's position is inconsistent, it is a pretzel.


Every President maintains some inconsistent positions, including great Presidents

Ordinary Presidents regularly employ such inconsistent pretzels, Republican Presidents like W was a pretzel from the day he took office until he left.

But even the greatest Presidents maintained convoluted positions

President Roosevelt

In 1942 FDR signed executive order 9066 to intern Japanese-Americans that lived in Washington, Oregon and California.

The reason that FDR signed the order was because a Beck like nut job, General DeWitt ignited racial hysteria against the Japanese:




I don't want any of them here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map.<[br />



The superficial reason for the internment was worries about espionage. The real reason was economic, either for gain or to express resentment.

What made this such a particularly painful 'pretzel' for those of us that have a deep affection for FDR and his huge contribution to history is that we now know that there was never a concern about Japanese espionage. If you remember TORA TORA TORA you will remember the factual accounting of how American code breakers had already broken Japanese codes and SOS Hull had already read the declaration of war before the Japanese had delivered it.

While virtually all of the Japanese (and to qualify as Japanese you only had to have one great grand parent to qualify) in Washington, Oregon and California (where no serious espionage existed) only 1% of the 150,000 Japanese Americans in Hawaii (where espionage was real) were interned.


Lincoln


Can there be any greater Presidential pretzel than the Emancipation Proclamation. Drafted and kept in a drawer for a year waiting for a Union battlefield victory so that it would make it look less opportunistic this great step in American history was a great principle wrapped in blatant political manipulation.

It freed only the slaves of those states who were in rebellion against the Union. In order to placate the border states and not provide a reason for them to join the Confederacy their slaves would remain legal.



GLBT anger at President Obama's compromise on acceptance of civil unions as a substitute for same sex marriage


This is a righteous anger.

We have seen this kind of anger before.

Would you tell Malcom X to control his feelings or modulate his expression? That is a confrontation that I would have paid to see.

Would you tell Gloria Steinem to be happy with the pace of incremental advancement? Again a viewable smackdown.

Anger by the oppressed for the continuation of its second class status is a welcome sign. In the American context is has often been the penult step before full legal civil liberties have been achieved.

Anger from the GLBT community, whether at DU or Log Cabin Republicans is useful for the Democratic Party. It keeps us aware and stiffens our resolve. I certainly have been informed by the anger of DUers of GLBT DUers. I am sure it has made me a better Democrat and as many much better Democrats at DU would be able to advise any device that makes grantcart a better Democrat is badly needed indeed.


My message to GLBT DUers


I DO NOT FEEL your pain. Your pain has been purchased by the personal experience of rejection, marginalization, patronization, discrimination, intimidation, objectification and mocking hypocritical moral condemnation.

I will not add to that pain by further patronizing you by pretending that any straight person in Amercian could understand its particular sting any more than I would tell an African American that I have felt their pain.

I will try to understand it and take it seriously.

In order to understand it I will listen to it.

I listened before.

I listened to what you have said about President Obama.

I will listen in the future.

I will try not to dismiss your arguments but give them weight and consideration.

If I do not comment I ask that you consider that I am listenting to it, appreciating it and even though may be at a loss to engage your comments, I will always reach out to you as a person.

In listening it has occured to me that it is possible that one of the reasons that this may be particularly painful for some GLBT DUers is that because no national figure like Dr. King or Malcolm X has emerged to become a nationally recognized leader of the community and so in supporting the President some may be doubly hurt because they invested personal support in him hoping that he would atleast partially fill that void and become not just a supporter but a national spokesman for their cause. That this could be a further reason to feel cut off as a person makes me sad.

As I still support the President and that remains absolutely unshaken I hope that you will see that as a particular charachter fault and it means that I do not abandon my friends and allies lightly and that the same fault means that there are no circumstances that I would consider myself less an ally of GLBT interests even if you consider my position inadequate.


To the supporters of the President

It is not necessary that in supporting the President that we unravel every pretzel.

I have no absolute answer why the President has accepted a position that is quite obviously contrary to the broad principle against seperate regimes that the Board of Education settled but it has to be accepted that it is a compromise on an important principle.

The judgement of President Obama's effectiveness on the issue of equal rights for GLBT will be decided on DOMA, DADT, increasing presence of GLBT in prominent government positions and increasing the federal government's response on issues where it is directly responsible. My guess is that by focusing on an unshakeable committment to equal rights and limiting himself to those things that are directly related to the federal government the President has determined that he can get more done than by taking a higher profile in non federal issues. In the end the judgement, like LBJ, will be made on what he actually gets passed.

GLBT folks that I know don't expect that straights will have all the same opinions on all the same issues. They do have an expectation to be taken seriously.

Fredric Douglass

Fredric Douglass was bitterly disappointed in Lincoln.

He was disappointed that after Sumter slavery wasn't made the issue.

He was disappointed that AA soldiers received lower pay and were not originally used in combat.

He was disappointed that once being promised a commission as an officer and then having had it revolked without reason.

On the night when the Emancipation Proclomation was to be delivered he said



"We were waiting and listening as for a bolt from the sky...we were watching...by the dim light of the stars for the dawn of a new day...we were longing for the answer to the agonizing prayers of centuries."



Instead of a bolt he got a pretzel but it was still a giant step forward.

After each of Douglass' disappointments he would stop recruiting Blacks for the Union Army. As the pain receeded he went back out and recruited tens of thousands of Blacks to join the Union cause.

The reason is because he knew that the reason that Lincoln had to jump through hoops and have half measures was not because this was Lincoln's preference but because of people who owned slaves.

On April 14, Fredrick Douglass spoke to both the bitter frustration that Lincoln provided to the African American community and their latter understanding of the man Douglass would


http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=39

He was preeminently the white man’s President, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men. He was ready and willing at any time during the first years of his administration to deny, postpone, and sacrifice the rights of humanity in the colored people to promote the welfare of the white people of this country.

. . .

Our faith in him was often taxed and strained to the uttermost, but it never failed. When he tarried long in the mountain; when he strangely told us that we were the cause of the war; when he still more strangely told us that we were to leave the land in which we were born; when he refused to employ our arms in defense of the Union; when, after accepting our services as colored soldiers, he refused to retaliate our murder and torture as colored prisoners; when he told us he would save the Union if he could with slavery; when he revoked the Proclamation of Emancipation of General Fremont; when he refused to remove the popular commander of the Army of the Potomac, in the days of its inaction and defeat, who was more zealous in his efforts to protect slavery than to suppress rebellion; when we saw all this, and more, we were at times grieved, stunned, and greatly bewildered; but our hearts believed while they ached and bled. Nor was this, even at that time, a blind and unreasoning superstition. Despite the mist and haze that surrounded him; despite the tumult, the hurry, and confusion of the hour, we were able to take a comprehensive view of Abraham Lincoln, and to make reasonable allowance for the circumstances of his position. We saw him, measured him, and estimated him; not by stray utterances to injudicious and tedious delegations, who often tried his patience; not by isolated facts torn from their connection; not by any partial and imperfect glimpses, caught at inopportune moments; but by a broad survey, in the light of the stern logic of great events, and in view of that divinity which shapes our ends, rough hew them how we will, we came to the conclusion that the hour and the man of our redemption had somehow met in the person of Abraham Lincoln. It mattered little to us what language he might employ on special occasions; it mattered little to us, when we fully knew him, whether he was swift or slow in his movements; it was enough for us that Abraham Lincoln was at the head of a great movement, and was in living and earnest sympathy with that movement, which, in the nature of things, must go on until slavery should be utterly and forever abolished in the United States.



Despite enourmous disappointment the coalition remained together and committed. Douglass real enemies were those that would sacrifice anything to prolong slavery.

And in the same way, through situations that may leave some "grieved, stunned, and greatly bewildered" we stay absolutely committed to defeat the reactionary forces in this country that are committed to stoping the full and complete implementation of all civil rights for all.
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nicely said!
But when Obama's wrong, we're still going to call him out.O8)
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks for you reply.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. A very interesting and well-drawn argument.
Thanks!
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very well thought-out and put together and yet I'm still torn......
...because I realize:

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." ~ Plato

But I also realize that:

“Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.” ~ Anon


- K&R for your efforts......
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Total nonsense, from start to finish
Edited on Sat Aug-28-10 03:31 PM by Prism
It is the messy part of the Democratic Party, its' conscience wrestling with itself.


Actually, the question is fairly settled in the Democratic Party. An overwhelming majority of our party supports equality.

This is the President and other politicians seeing how much he can get away with in the name of political expedience. How much abuse will the LGBT community take before they scatter for the exits. To date, the President has been treading right up to that line as evidenced by the massive amount of damage control he had to perform in June 2009 with the DOMA brief and the extension of hospital visitation in response to his fundraisers being openly interrupted and protested. He has done as much as he politically has to - and absolutely not a step further.

What we're watching is partisan loyalists wrestling with who and how many they are willing to walk over in the name of power, no conscience involved.

A President's lying and intransigence on equality is not a "good thing" - it's a fucking horrible thing. He pretends he's wrestling with his conscience. And if it isn't pretense, I would love to know just where this sudden opposition to gay marriage originated. He didn't possess it in 1996. His church certainly never taught it to him. Yet, *poof* he went from supporting full equality to this triangulated nonsense position that doesn't hold up under even the lightest common sense scrutiny.

Whose rights can we debate next, and how much of a good thing will that debate be? Muslims? Can we have a conversation in the Democratic Party on whether or not we can be fucked guaranteeing their constitutional rights? And when politicians say no, will that be a good thing, too?

LGBT rights are not equivalent to the slavery situation. Not in the slightest. What a shallow, inapplicable comparison to make. Slavery not only involved civil rights (which didn't arrive wholly until nearly a century later), but half the country's economy, voting, segregation, massive migrations and the effect of low wages on the increasingly industrialized North.

What a reaching, insincere, apologetic bit of fluff in service of the usual defenses.

One day, I wish I could find someone writing in defense of the President's approach who at least had a passing familiarity with the LGBT community, our lives, our concerns, and what is most urgent for us. Because people like that wouldn't waste their time writing posts like this.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks for your reply.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You're welcome. Your post is a historical obscenity.
Lincoln's position and Obama's are light years from one another. To simplify that with a handful of Douglas quotes is totally unreal.

Totally unreal.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. +1000. And excellent response. Thank you. prism.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Don't know if this was edited in or if I missed it the first time
LGBT rights are not equivalent to the slavery situation. Not in the slightest. What a shallow, inapplicable comparison to make. Slavery not only involved civil rights (which didn't arrive wholly until nearly a century later), but half the country's economy, voting, segregation, massive migrations and the effect of low wages on the increasingly industrialized North.


There is no comparison with GLBT experience with either Slavery or the internment of Japanese Americans. The comparison is strictly on the Presidential actions that involved taking convoluted paths and in the case of Douglass how he dealt with a rollercoaster of emotions of disappointment, friendship in meeting the President and further disappointments.


The comparison, which all historical comparisons are, is simply a rough comparison of the convoluted solutions that both Lincoln and FDR had, despite the fact that they were both intelligent enough to see the weakness of the logic of the Emancipation Proclomation and the Internment.

I believe that the instructive phrase is when we fully knew him which indicates that at the time that he was disappointed with Lincoln additional exposure to the President and a wider view of him changed his opinion. It is particularly relevent because it is Douglass' carefuly considered opinion after over a decade and was aimed specifically at the Emancipation Proclomation, the real point of comparison.

Nothing more should be read into that (not saying that Obama is Lincoln, or slavery = GLBT treatment, or internment is equivalent to GLBT experience) than it is a well known case of a leader who was disappointed but had a different opinion in time.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-10 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. Brav-motherfucking-o!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. grantcart, when was the last time you were gay?
Because I assume you must have been gay at least at the moment you wrote this in order to prescribe for the gay community what course it should follow.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. You must have inadvertanly missed this part:


I have not prescribed a course for the gay community to follw, I have not attempted to speak for the gay community and I have not presumed to imagine the pain that the gay community has experienced. There is nothing in the OP that prescribes any activity for any gay community.





I will not add to that pain by further patronizing you by pretending that any straight person in Amercian could understand its particular sting any more than I would tell an African American that I have felt their pain.

I will try to understand it and take it seriously.

In order to understand it I will listen to it.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. No, I didn't miss that part. I'm pointing to this part.
"And in the same way, through situations that may leave some "grieved, stunned, and greatly bewildered" we stay absolutely committed to defeat the reactionary forces in this country that are committed to stoping the full and complete implementation of all civil rights for all."

My grandmother used to say, don't let your elbow erase what your hand does.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I presume that even if we disagree on many things,
and even if we disagree on President Obama,



we we stay absolutely committed to defeat the reactionary forces in this country that are committed to stoping the full and complete implementation of all civil rights for all.


That is not proscribing action to the GLBT community or any other community. It is a statement of fact. Those that are committed for full equal rights remain committed to this principle, despite whatever other disagreements that exist.


That you would find this innoculous statement so objectionable means that either you arrived at the thread with a preconceived disposition to find something to object to or that I have failed to convey the meaning clearly.

We can let each reader make their own determination.

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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Right, so essentially this is the usual "we're bad, but they're worse" argument
for ensuring that GLBTs keep voting for a president and a party that is apathetic towards us at best.

Meanwhile, the last few court victories we've won have been penned by Republican-appointed judges. The irony.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. re Judges

I have a close relative who is a Judge and recently ran in a conservative area for a higher level Judgeship.


Before becoming a judge he was a prosecutor. He is sincere, intellectually honest and a deeply conservative Roman Catholic.

The reason that he was defeated was that people in the area thought he was a liberal because of his protection of the rights of individuals and following the law.


Following the law and the constitution is now perceived as a purely liberal interest.


While obviously I wouldn't use your exact terms I would agree that it is a question of comparative advantages versus anything that approaches absolute good but that the differences are much greater than the two terms you used.


We now have a one party system. One party is interested in governance. The other has devolved into a demogogic circus that has no interest that has actually no real interest in governing, just retaining political power through manipulation as Ken Mehlman's professional career has so perfectly documented.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. It turns out that the GLBT movement is making the biggest gains
of just about any activist group in the country. From advice, you're not needing.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-10 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Yes, my point was about presumption. I have a suggestion.
You might go back and find the statements of white people who presumed to speak for Douglass, let alone, to set his agenda. It might be an interesting experiment for you to read through those statements in light of the current situation.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great work, K&R/.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-10 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
21. Good post.
I stand with you and all DUers in wanting civil rights for all.

Julie
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-10 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'm not going to comment on the wisdom of this OP.
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