Dean Stands By Mosque Remarks, Charges Liberal Critics With Being Inflexible

[still_one]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/dean-stands-by-mosque-rem_n_687049.html

I am sorry, dean, but this has nothing to do with "liberal inflexibility". This has to do with prejudice and the Constitution, and dean and anyone else do NOT deserve any slack on this, but major criticism

huh, "liberal inflexbility", on bigotry, sorry you lose on this one dean

[dkf]

1. When Dean said that getting rid of Saddam Hussein wouldn't do much good he was savaged

Like he is being savaged for telling the obvious truth here...it is not possible to reach the goal of peace at this location. If the Imam would like to further relations this is the hugest opportunity he has to do so.

He can turn this awfulness into something truly positive for all.

[still_one]

3. The obvious truth here is prejudice against Muslims. The same prejudice I experienced

growing up, and I couldn't go into certain hotels or places because I was Jewish. Of course there reason was justified because my religion had "crucified their god"

This "Imam" is an AMERICAN CITIZEN, you may not like it that Americans are all races, colors, religions, and Creeds, but that is the Constitution

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. +1

and he don't get any flexibility on the Establishment clause. And what is next? Hate against Jews? No, I am not kidding, but a lot of folks miss this.

[Jim Sagle]

7. You may not be kidding but you pulled it out of your ass.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Yep I did

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Tell me exactly what did I pull out of my ass?

[still_one]

13. I am not kidding when I say I experienced prejudice growing up in the midwest

and it was not a pleasant thing, including the hazing I received in high school

[Jim Sagle]

147. Consider that your stance on this issue may help resurrect it.

[Maru Kitteh]

151. You are blaming a victim of bigotry and abuse for bigotry and abuse. Classy. What else

do you have up your sleeve?


Women are to blame for misogyny?

Japanese Americans were to blame for being interred?

The men of Tuskegee (and their partners and children) were to blame for the horrific Syphilis "experiments?"



OK. We get it.

WILL YOU CUT THE MALARKEY! I'M TALKING! THERE'S A WHITE MAN TALKING HERE! silencio. OONGAAWA!!!

[Jim Sagle]

152. Seek help.

[dkf]

10. Well he has the right to further tear this country apart.

I just wish he wouldn't.

[still_one]

14. He isn't tearing the country apart, it is those 20% that believe Obama is a muslim

or those people who believe that certain people should only live in certain areas

This "tearing the country apart", is coming from those who want to exclude "certain Americans"

[leftynyc]

80. No - it's not just 20%

Several polls put it closer to 70% (and a majority of NYers) who are against building Park51 at this location. While most agree he has the right to build there (and those that don't are morons who don't understand the first amendment), the "should he?" question is entirely another matter. Now that Dr. Dean has stated his feelings about this being too provocative, can we put to rest the mistaken belief that only bigots think this is a bad idea?

[Winterblues]

89. Should the Mosque in the Pentagon 80 feet from where the plane struck

also be moved so people won't be offended?

[Crystal Clarity]

99. +1

[riderinthestorm]

107. I don't think any mosque should be in the Pentagon. I'm not comfortable with any religious

institutions being in there. Period.

[leftynyc]

123. No - and I think Park51 should be built

I'm just pointing out that everybody who has questions or reservations about it is not a bigot.

[Maru Kitteh]

153. Yes they are. Bigoted actions make the actor a bigot.

The nice thing is, the enlightened ones can fix it.

[uppityperson]

118. video for you on the Cordoba House. No, we can't put that to rest

http://www.markfiore.com/political-cartoons/watch-ground-zero-mosque-islam-ramadan-cordoba-house-animated-video-mark-fiore-animation

[leftynyc]

124. So you think Howard Dean is a bigot? (n/t)

[uppityperson]

136. On this? He is wrong and supporting a bigoted take.

You can't appease everyone, especially bigots. He is wrong is saying what he does.

See this for a good take on it http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8974027&mesg_id=8974027

[leftynyc]

144. I disagree

I don't everyone that has reservations about Park51 is a bigot or are supportive of bigots. The reality is this has become a flashpoint.

[Violet_Crumble]

150. What reservations do you have about it?

I'd be interested to know what reservations you have and why you have them...

[Raineyb]

160. Yes they do. And the idea that the people who are being subjected to bigotry

have to be "sensitive" to the feelings of bigots is asinine. These people don't want to have a mosque built ANYWHERE! They just happen to come across this one to use as a rallying cry. Furthermore, it's a damn bit of gall for someone who doesn't have ties to the neighborhood to come in and tell people who do that they can't build a community center there. Not to mention there's already a mosque in the area that's been there for years. These reservations are bullshit and are all based on bigotry. There is no compromising with bigotry.

This is damn ridiculous and your attitude is an embarrassment to our city.

[JerseygirlCT]

85. It makes me want to ask those here supporting

this bias: so, plenty of people are "uncomfortable" with a black president. Perhaps it was insensitive of Obama to run and win the presidency? Perhaps he should resign, because after all, we don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable now, do we?

Discomfort is often a sign of growth - or the opportunity to grow. People who are uncomfortable with the idea of a Muslim community center really need to stop talking and start thinking. A little reflection might do them good.

[FBaggins]

117. The difference is that we only get one president.

You can't deal with potential "discomfort" there without giving in to bigotry.

But let's try another example. Say you want to open a BBQ joint called "Imam's nightmare" or some similar jab at kosher diets. - there's nothing that I can do to stop you from creating such a chain, but it's perfectly reasonable for me to be concerned if you elect to open one up across the street from a temple or mosque. People are likely to be offended. It's ok for me to say that I think it's a bad idea... and if I represent others (in congress or otherwise) it's ok for me to say that they're uncomfortable.

Now, some of those people will be bigoted (perhaps advocating that no pork be sold anywhere in the country), but I'm not a bigot by extension just for thinking that you should open your stand somewhere else... and none of this means that I can do anything to stop you (nor should I - apart from that simple appeal for sensitivity).

There's no similar way to deal with people who are uncomfortable with a black president. In order for the rest of us to move forward, they have to lose.

[Caliman73]

17. The only people tearing the country apart are the bigots

The bigots who drummed the fake outrage up and the suckers who are allowing themselves to be taken in by them thereby behaving like bigots. There is no relationship between the terrorists that attacked the WTC and the American citizens who are trying to build a community center. If you believe that there is then you are plainly and simply a bigot.

[coti]

43. Absolutely right.

It's crystal clear.

[Caliman73]

48. Thanks

Though I am too young to remember the civil rights movement of the 60's and 70's, this rhetoric sounds like what was being said by some people in both the South and North who railed against allowing Black Americans, other minority groups, and women to have full access and dignity within the American society. They howled about how it would be the death of America and how those crazy civil rights people were tearing the country apart.

They never saw themselves for what they were, the real problem behind the unrest in the country. Just as their counterparts today who have found a new scapegoat.

[dkf]

60. You have no sympathy for them because they do not think as you do.

Maybe they deserved for their family members to die huh? I can tell you hate them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. You realize MUSLIMS died that day too?

not only in the towers but among the FIRST RESPONDERS?

What you think only good ol' WHITE (there I said it), Christian (AGAIN I SAID IT) Americans were victims that day?

The racism drips by the way.

[dionysus]

100. bigotry defense FAIL.

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

119. this short vid on the Cordoba house says it well

http://www.markfiore.com/political-cartoons/watch-ground-zero-mosque-islam-ramadan-cordoba-house-animated-video-mark-fiore-animation

[Caliman73]

128. Stick to your day job.

Understanding human thought and behavior is not a skill you possess. You are too easily lead by your own narrow mindedness and irrational emotions to be any kind of judge of what people are thinking.


No one deserves to die. The people who died during the terrorist attacks on 9/11/01 did not deserve to die. What I am speaking out against is the bigotry that is pervasive to the opposition to this center. I am responding to the continued harping on the false link between the criminals who perpetrated the murders on 9/11 and the people who are planning the center.

[sabrina 1]

157. He is the one being attacked and HE is the one 'tearing the

country apart. NOT the teabagging bigots, the organized racist movement led by some pretty hateful individuals, not they, a man who had nothing to do with 9/11, other than being hired by Bush as a member of his ME Peace Team and by the FBI to help them do their jobs after 9/11. No HE is the one tearing this country apart?? Orwell got it right, up is down, black is white! Sometimes I understand clearly why the bad guys always win. They do know one thing though, just toss out some shit and they know that on the left they will get enough scared people to pick it up and run with it.

[steve2470]

21. I agree !

Here goes the reasoning:

1- 19 terrorists who were Islamic killed ~3000 people of many faiths and nationalities (generally accepted, with the caveats that they were not uber-devout Muslims and represented an extreme political anti-American viewpoint and an extreme Wahabbist sect)

2- Therefore, they represented all of Islam (News to me ! Broad brush much ?)

3- Islam killed Americans and attacked the USA (let's just ignore the dead Muslims and, no, 19 men who were Islamic did, not 2 billion Muslims)

4- Park51 (aka "Ground Zero Mosque") is a mosque (not true, a community center with a prayer room)

5- X amount of square feet/meters/miles surrounding the old WTC site is "hallowed ground" (despite the fact that NO ONE made a serious effort to buy up this land and the fact that several decidedly not-so-respectful businesses are in that mythical area)

6- Since Islam killed Americans and Park51 is a mosque, the nasty Muslims two blocks away from the old WTC site are a menace/insult to Americans and the families of the 9/11 dead (note my extreme :sarcasm:)

7- The feelings/unresolved grief of SOME of the 9/11 dead's families trumps the First Amendment rights of this religious minority (not legal but when did that matter to the opposition !)

8- Therefore: despite a) the incontrovertible fact that the property is theirs; b) they have the right to build a community center or mosque or both; c) they have complied completely with all the local zoning laws; and d) their Imam has cooperated with both the FBI and the Bush Administration.... the Muslim minority loses to the feelings of some of the 9/11 families and of the RW political manipulation

[Radical Activist]

59. What bothered me more was his broad statement that Muslims in Iran are in the 12th century.

Yes, there is a branch of bigoted Islam in Iran. But, it doesn't describe the entire country. I think Dean understands that but his words were very poorly chosen.

[seattleblue]

62. Yes it does describe the entire country.

I suspect you have never traveled in Islamic countries. I have. You are living in an alternate universe if you do not know this.

[Radical Activist]

63. Your generalization is deeply insulting to those Iranians

who have fought for governmental and religious reform in their country. People have fought and died under horribly repressive regimes in efforts to improve their country. We should recognize their existence and celebrate their struggle.

[JonLP24]

65. I agree

However I'm wondering if the poster you replied to is talking about governments that may be living in the 12th century or whenever or the people's customs of the country which I believe vary.

[Radical Activist]

91. I hope so.

Dean's quote sounded too much like a blanket statement about all Iranians, and I believe it's important to make the distinction you're referring to.

[JonLP24]

64. Have you been to Iran?

(No snark intended)

Before I get into anything my point with all this--around 50 or so countries have Muslim majorities and even those countries, lifestyles and such can very by region inside the country so I wouldn't use an experience in one place and apply it to another.

What I'm talking about-I've been to Kuwait and I must say they have a much more advanced roadway system than we do. In fact overall their infrastructure is much nicer. Women, especially in Kuwait city, dress in western style clothing and even seen them driving cars. Though you get the covered from head-to-tie thing as well there and especially in rural areas. However pornography and alcohol is illegal so it may be that you're talking about but it is a step up from the 12th century.

Iraq is a different story. The best way to describe the differences is it is like leaving Arizona and going into Mexico(which I've done) is kind of (and I stress kinda) like going into Kuwait into Iraq. Not exact but there is a noticeable difference. The point is the infrastructure is much poorer. Also there are no posted speed limits on the highway and people generally drive whatever direction on whatever road. I also noticed a man driving a car with two women--both in the back seat--no one sitting in the front seat. I also say an indigenous man wearing a Got MILF? t-shirt(though this isn't a very good example of someone living beyond the 12th century). IIRC the vast majority in the country never go more than 20 or so--maybe more--miles away from where they are born and raised. I have no doubt there are areas where people are living in past centuries but I think it varies depending on region. There are some areas of Baghdad that look like Scottsdale. I really can't gage what century the people are living in because we mostly traveled at night due to less visibility and a curfew.

My point is at the top of my post. Just giving you my experience (which is limited to two Muslim majority countries) to explain my question and my point.

[seattleblue]

102. No I have not been to Iran.

I have been to most of the Islamic countries in the conventional middle east area (Iraq and to the west of that). The people there in general put the Islamic religion as first in their life beyond anything else. The religion is a 7th century philosophy and even the most "progressive" followers do not accept any changes in the religion whatsoever. This is the reason the middle east area is backward economically and they need to import Western technical employees to run most of their projects. (The Iranians import Russians and Chinese).

[CTLawGuy]

70. correct

it is because those countries do not have separation of mosque and state. If we didn't have separation of church and state, our country would be much like theirs.

[JerseygirlCT]

83. Absolutely! nt

[Alameda]

49. The time to have spoken up about it was when it was going through

the permit process. The fact of the matter is it's the bigots who are making this an issue. There are strip clubs, fast food and all sorts of things in that area. It's not like it is really a sacred area, or even being treated like that. It is not at Ground Zero anyway.

[sabrina 1]

51. If that was the only mosque they were targeting you might

have a point, although I do not agree with you. But it isn't about Ground Zero. They have been targeting mosques across the country and in other areas of NYC. Who will they go after next, should the next mosque move to placate these bigots also, and the next and the next?

This is pure bigotry and to give in to it is the last thing anyone should think of doing.

Backing down to bullies only emboldens them. Why are we always doing that in this country? It will be a sad day if they win this. Watch what they will do next after getting this 'scalp'.

Unbelievable how a few screaming sickos control this country. Sometimes I just want to go somewhere sane.

[mdmc]

71. what is this "awfulness" you speak of?

[Connie_Corleone]

73. No one had a problem with it 6 months ago.

How can you have the goal of peace at the former Burlington Coat Factory location? And there is already a real mosque just a couple of blocks from ground zero. It's been there for years.

Now that some rightwingers decided to create a controversy and make people think that a mosque is being built right at the WTC site, it's the Imam who has to placate the bigots?

Give me a break.

[dionysus]

92. it's famazing how open about their bigotry people are on this issue.

[Jim Sagle]

2. The left isn't always right. Dean understands that.

[still_one]

6. and neither is Dean. By the way, this has nothing to do with left or right

it is about prejudice pure and simple. When you have Federalist society members, who are NOT liberal, along with Mayor Bloomberg realize this is about the Constitution, and its protections under the bill of rights

How dare those "Muslim Americans" don't move when they were granted a permit by the city over a year ago

How dare those "African Americans" didn't want to sit in the back of the bus 50+ years ago

How dare those "Jewish Americans" were prohibited from going into certain public establishments, or were filtered out when applications asked for your religion 50+ years ago

How dare those "Japanese Americans" should be upset when they were put into special camps, during WWII, because we all knew back then, they were "not to be trusted"

This has nothing to do with a cultural center, a mosque is already in the area. This is what it appears to be

and as Mayor Bloomberg said, this is a sad day in America

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. +100

for the crowd I will repeat this.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[hfojvt]

42. amazing then that Dean is on the side of prejudice

Or maybe we could move beyond always ascribing sinister motives to people who disagree with us?

Maybe, but I doubt it. That is the inflexibility of the liberal web. We (or you all) always see an issue as one of High Moral Principle with only villains on the other side and no room at all for either dialogue or compromise.

[Radical Activist]

54. You would have thrown a shit fit if Obama had said the same thing.

You showed your true colors tonight. Several people did. Realize that the next time you dish out one of your virulent attacks on Obama and then claim it's only about the issues, people will laugh at you because they know what bullshit that is.

There's one big inaccuracy in this article. It says Dean is part of the "progressive community." Not really. He never was. He's a moderate who took the advice on Joe Trippi and George Lakoff about how to pander to liberals despite having a moderate record and platform.

[Jim Sagle]

148. No, actually Id've agreed with Obama if he'd said the same thing.

Although Id've wondered why he said anything at all on such a distractive topic.

This particular jug of yer DLC hogwash is past is use date.

[dionysus]

93. religious bigotry rawwwks!!!!

[Jim Sagle]

149. As does your kneejerk defense of it.

[Raineyb]

162. Aren't YOU the one who is defending bigotry?

And since when is it wrong to speak out against bigotry?

[EFerrari]

4. The media will never miss an opportunity to try to make hay

out of anything he says.

[still_one]

8. This isn't the media, this is Dean. bush didn't comment, dean did. It is obviously his view

I don't like it, and NOT because I am a "progressive", it has nothing to do with that

[EFerrari]

28. Dean didn't attack the left as Sam's headline suggests.

He instead pointed out how toxic the right is more than once. So, yeah, it is the media in that respect. He's saying that the best solution will come out of dialogue and negotiation and not out of a court battle. Well, that's probably right.

[Radical Activist]

53. Your double standard here is astounding.

Gibbs made a comment that was directed at a small slice of the left with specifics attitudes. Yet, you were part of the crowd doing your best to spin it as an attack on all progressives. Now Dean makes a generalized attack on liberals and you make excuses.

It could not be more clear that you don't exercise fair judgment when it comes to Obama. It's not just about issues to you. It's about attacking a person you dislike.

[EFerrari]

55. Setting aside your lame personal attack, did I miss where Dean

attacks the left? I have a question out on another thread, too, about that. Where does he attack the left? Someone said he called us "hysterical bloggers". Do you have a link to that?


ETA: Update, that was a mistaken attribution.

[Radical Activist]

56. You never seem worried about finding accurate quotes and sources when it comes to attacking Obama.

I haven't seen the claim about hysterical bloggers. You can chase that one on your own. The quotes I've heard are disappointing enough.

The cultural center is not an affront to anyone except bigots. His broad labeling of Muslims in some other countries like Iran as being back in the 12th century are not what I expect from a Democrat.
http://www.wabcradio.com/sectional.asp?id=37951

I'll admit that I'm a little suspicious about the fact that Dean's quote about liberals isn't linked to a full text I can read in context. Do you know why? Because I've seen so many bullshit articles that take an Obama quote out of context (or even a rumor from an unnamed source) slap an inflammatory headline on it, where it then gets posted on the internet sites where people like you can chime in about how Obama has betrayed us again. Sometimes those inflammatory headlines turn out to be bullshit with nothing behind it. Dean is getting the Obama treatment from the professional left. I hope you learn something from this. Read with skepticism.

[EFerrari]

57. If you've never seen me try to verify information

then you don't read my posts very carefully. And what I take from this is you're not careful.

[Radical Activist]

61. Coincidentally,

I looked for an old thread to link in another post. Your name popped up defending an editorial with an inflammatory headline attacking Obama that was based on a rumor from an unnamed source and it turned out to be total hogwash. My response to you was precisely about the point I just made.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8326038&mesg_id=8330123

So I'll just suggest that you read articles/blogs about Obama with the same watchful eye you have for other topics.

[DevonRex]

90. +1000 nt

[EFerrari]

98. And precisely my point: you are not careful

Expressing doubt is not support. You have nothing to teach me about reading or about sourcing.

lol

[Radical Activist]

114. You linked a defense

of the sensational headline, which turned out to be inaccurate and based on flimsy evidence. It's pretty obvious for anyone to see. I just looked over your other posts in that thread and none of them appear to express any doubt about the claim being made.

I can understand not wanting to admit you were wrong but...claiming the exact opposite of what's in plain writing...wow.

[EFerrari]

122. The very post you link to refutes your own point.

I understand wanting to make me wrong but, wow.

[Cha]

103. Doesn't matter if it's factual

or not when it comes to attacking Pres Obama..any ol' crap will do..they'll be plenty waiting to eat it up.

Excellent Advice, RA.

[dionysus]

95. did you just now realize this?

;)

[EFerrari]

101. So, you're agreeing with sloppy and wrong?

I wonder how many posts of mine he had to go through before he found one that didn't make his point. You people are not doing Obama any favors with this bulleria. I hope you don't work with actual voters.

[dionysus]

104. ROFL.... you campaign against democrats daily, and *I* am the one that shouldn't be around voters?

you're too much.

[LoZoccolo]

27. Ha ha ha ha ha you didn't seem to criticize the hay-making that was done last week

with Robert Gibbs.

[Marr]

9. I'm missing the part where he said liberals are being inflexible.

I see where he said the people putting their community center there are missing "an opportunity to be flexible", but I don't see where he says "liberal critics are being inflexible".

[still_one]

16. That isn't my headline, that is the huffingtonpost. If it is inaccurate

they should correct it

[Marr]

19. Do you agree that it's inaccurate?

It seems to me that the subject is completely incorrect and the predicate is exaggerated.

I don't happen to agree with Dean's comments-- his actual comments, I mean. I don't think it does any good to be "flexible" towards hate propaganda. But I do understand his point, and it isn't reflected in that headline.

[still_one]

24. No, because I don't know. However, I do know within the article

the following quote has been attributed to Dean:

In an interview late Wednesday, former DNC Chair Howard Dean reiterated his belief that the controversial "Ground Zero" mosque should be re-located, arguing that critics of his position were "guilty of" the same type of absolutism on the issue that they've accused Republicans of harboring.

The question is who is he referring to as his "critics". Until that is clarified I will not say it is inaccurate. Though by him referring to his "critic" as those who accused the republicans of harboring this "inflexibility", I have to see it doesn't appear that inaccurate

[Marr]

30. Fair enough.

I will note, however, that the line about "absolutism" isn't actually a quote. I'm always a bit suspicious of articles that categorize comments this way without actually printing them, and doubly so when it's someone like Dean and a moment like this. However, I understand your point.

[still_one]

37. It is good to be suspicious, and question everything. It is very hard to decipher

what is part of a quote and not, and the media is notorious for taking things out of context

In all honesty this should have never been an issue, but the media is having a field day with it

[Waiting For Everyman]

15. I agree with him.

I just don't think a mosque/center needs to be that close to ground zero. It just doesn't need to. I think that what Dean said about there must be a reasonable compromise to be found in this situation, made a lot of sense too.

And... I don't know of any "right to build" in the Constitution. Any building that is ever built anywhere is subject to a whole ton of restrictions and permission-getting... lots of those restrictions are pretty arbitrary and/or picky, and/or favoring some group or individual while disfavoring others. That is the norm of building, not anything unusual.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

[still_one]

18. They got the permit a year ago. There is a mosque already in the area

This isn't about the "right to build", they already received that right from the city, this is about prejudice

[Waiting For Everyman]

41. I understand this particular building was already permitted,

my comment came from hearing that point being made on the news earlier today, which doesn't hold water to me as an argument.

As Dean said, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest either if it gets built, but I do think it's a mistake to do it, because I think there will be continuing problems with it. I think too, that litigating it will make it worse.

But that decision is up to the group building it, of course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. When they filed over a year ago

nobody said anything. Hell a few on the right even applauded it. Now they are going about how ugly it is, and you are falling for it.

Who's next in the prejudice?

[Alameda]

50. Thank you!!! This is just being drummed up in to an issue

[niyad]

23. you do know that when this community center was first proposed, there was no opposition to it?

(somewhere here on DU is the nyt article from dec of last year outlining the center proposal) it wasn't until some idiot named geller started screeching that the screaming started.

the only reasonable compromise is for the idiot bigots to shut the hell up.

I don't like churches in salem, or on native american sacred sites, nor a walmart and casino at gettysburg. well, I have to put up with that.

oh, and you do know that the landmarks commission and all the appropriate depts had signed off on this, yes?

[Caliman73]

33. They have permits. They have gone through all of the legal processes.

This is about stupid people behaving stupidly and being rewarded for it by being granted legitimacy by the media and cowardly politicians. What think needs to happen or not is irrelevant. People do not need to have interracial marriages, Black Americans do not need to ride in the front of the bus, gay people do not need to have marriage equality either. Need is irrelevant it is what people are ENTITLED to which is the LIBERTY to make those decisions without government interfering. The Center has already exercised the right to purchase the property. They have already been granted the permits needed to build on the land. That was already done A YEAR AGO. This bullshit started when some right wing idiot started screaming about it, and now people are following like lemmings off the cliff of bigotry in the guise of sensitivity. :puke:

[Uzybone]

22. Dean is being a fool here

I'm sure those who hate the idea of moderation / moderates of any kind would agree.

[still_one]

35. In regards to prejudice there is no moderation. It is like being a little bit pregnant

[madfloridian]

25. Nobody likes the left this week. No one at all.

This has been a week of stunning condescension toward the left or liberals.

There are a lot of issues I am flexible about, and I have not followed nor have I commented much on the mosque issue.

But in doing this Dean has joined with the very people who have scorn for him as well as us.

Not a good thing to do.

Perhaps they all need to think twice before putting us down anymore.

I have some calls to make tomorrow and donations to stop for a while.

[EFerrari]

31. Read what he actually says before you make those calls.

Imho, that headline is misleading.

[carolinayellowdog]

66. No one has ever fallen so far so fast in my estimation

what a bizarro world when Scarborough, Olson, and Norquist are talking sense while Reid and Dean cave to the hatemongers

[Hello_Kitty]

132. Yep. The "professional left" bashers here should note that Dean is pandering to the RIGHT on this

It's not okay when he or any other Dem does it.

[grantcart]

26. Mr. Dean I would like to introduce you to Mr. Ted Olson.

[still_one]

32. That damn liberal ted olson, also joe Scarborough and others

[EmeraldCityGrl]

29. Dean understands this is not only a constitutional issue,

but a human issue. Real human beings struggling with grief issues and deep wounds.
Yes, The Constitution trumps mere emotions but this is a lost opportunity and Dean
recognizes that much.

[still_one]

34. How would you feel if a year ago you were given a permit for a building, and then told

a year later that you should move because of your beliefs you might offend some people. Would you do it?

How about the existing mosque in the same area? Wouldn't that also offend some people?

[Caliman73]

36. Perhaps

They are taking their deep wounds out on the wrong people though. If some woman broke my heart 9 years ago is it okay for me to take out my pain and anger on any other woman that comes along, after all it was a woman that broke my heart and all women are the same right?

Do you understand that concept? People are blaming a completely distinct group for the actions of outliers and criminals. It is exactly like saying that you need to be careful around Black and Latino people because they might be in a gang because you saw an episode of Gangland about the Crips or 18th Street. It is ignorance and emotional blackmail.

[steve2470]

38. excellent analogy ! nt

[still_one]

39. Boy that cut right to chase, excellent analogy /nt

[Uzybone]

44. brilliant. Simple, yet so apt.

[Withywindle]

45. Best analogy yet, and it's exactly right!

Collective punishment for the acts of specific individuals is NEVER okay.


It's not OK to be misogynist because a woman hurt you once.
It's not OK to be racist because a person of color hurt you once.
Repeat, repeat, all possible permutations.


Just--random hypothetical example--if a Jewish person beat you up 9 years ago, I'm sorry, but there's no reason I should take up your cause if you decide to make a media storm out of a synagogue going up near your house.

Freedom of religion means exactly that. And the imam who runs it is a fuckin' Sufi, which is very possibly the only group of people that radical Wahhabists hate more than Westerners, because they're so ecumenical and friendly. It's like, in the name of sympathy for Murrah Building bombing victims, knowing that Timothy McVeigh was a right-wing Christian, objecting to a Quaker meeting hall or Unitarian church being built three blocks away.

[woo me with science]

69. A better analogy would be

"It is exactly like saying that you need to be careful around ALL Black and Latino people because they might be in a gang because your wife or your child or thousands of your neighbors were horrifically murdered by the Crips or 18th Street."

Nobody just "watched a show."

I think the building should proceed, and I wish this hadn't become a big political mess, but I am also appalled by the insensitivity of some here to the real pain involved.

[Caliman73]

86. It is not insensitivity.

What I am appalled at is the people are conflating 2 completely separate acts and groups. I acknowledge the pain that is felt to this day by people who lost loved ones, but it is complete emotional blackmail to hold an innocent group accountable for something done by individuals with no connection to them.

[NYC Liberal]

58. Muslims aren't "real human beings struggling with grief issues and deep wounds"?

You do know that Muslims died in the September 11 attacks, right?

[EmeraldCityGrl]

109. Sarcasm and condescending comments add nothing of value

to an already emotional, highly charged issue.

The constitution exists as a final check for the times when we no longer have the courage to uphold
the right of others. It is written in such a way to endure through the darkest times.
The constitution stands inviolate to protect our liberties against our fears. Hopefully we can all agree on this.

The Center will be built, but it will never be a place known for promoting harmony and peace
which was it's original objective. That's the pity. That's what some of us hoped could still be accomplished
through some kind of dialog. For someone as honorable as Dr. Dean to be called simply a bigot for trying to
express this is unfortunate. The issue has become so politicized and such a distraction and tool of divisiveness
that the finer points are lost.

[NYC Liberal]

113. I was not being sarcastic or condescending.

You said: "this is not only a constitutional issue, but a human issue. Real human beings struggling with grief issues and deep wounds."

Please tell me how a Muslim organization building a community center affects that at all.

Please tell me why your post seems to imply that Muslims are not "real human beings struggling with grief issues and deep wounds," but a separate and distinct group.

The Center will be built, but it will never be a place known for promoting harmony and peace
which was it's original objective. That's the pity. That's what some of us hoped could still be accomplished
through some kind of dialog. For someone as honorable as Dr. Dean to be called simply a bigot for trying to
express this is unfortunate. The issue has become so politicized and such a distraction and tool of divisiveness
that the finer points are lost.

Sure it will. Some bigots are opposing it now. After it's built and open to the public, it can promote harmony and peace because all this noise will die down and nobody will care. It'll be there and that'll be that.

[MadBadger]

72. Oh Please, this is about real humans struggling with their bigotry.

[Kahuna]

105. How far is far enough? The center will not be ON ground zero. It will

be two blocks away. This is a false controversy, IMO. Why is it so hard for Dems to say that?

[CrownPrinceBandar]

110. I understand that, but.......

We need to have the strength as a people to stand by the principles that our country was founded upon. It would ill-serve us down the road if we allow ourselves to be timid and exclusionary on this issue. As JFK said on a different issue (but I think it applies here):

"We choose... and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

I'm an unapologetic Deaniac, but he is dead wrong on this issue. We need to summon the backbone to live up to our ideals.

[glitch]

130. Beautifully stated. Dean missed an opportunity to educate on this issue,

very elegantly, as you have done.

[TheKentuckian]

111. A missed opportunity to roll over to bigots having a temper tantrum

Who do you want to fold next and in what area?

No one has a right to be upset and if they are then they need a stiff upper lip and a steaming hot cup of shut the fuck up. These people attacked no one and cannot be accountable for those who did.

They are lashing out at perfectly innocent folks and should not be catered to or have their hateful feelings justified.

[Raineyb]

135. No. Their grief does not entitle them to be bigots. The people who want to build this center do

not nor should they have to change their plans to placate bigots. As usual when given a chance to stand up against bigotry in this country people try to weasel out as though the feelings of the people labeled "other" don't mean a damn thing. The bigots can go to hell. Fuck every last one of them.

[hay rick]

40. An opportunity to bring the country together,

Quoting Dean: "But the fact of the matter is, for better or worse, since 9/11 this country has been badly divided -- particularly by right wing politicians exploiting those divisions -- and this is an opportunity to bring the country together."

Unfortunately, the opportunity he describes is just another opportunity to cave in to the bigots and fear mongerers. No thanks.

[HuckleB]

46. Perhaps he is returning to his Republican roots.

It's a sad thing to watch.

[Hannah Bell]

47. et tu, deano?

[bunkerbuster1]

76. Yeah. That too.

oops. didn't see yours before posting mine...

[Radical Activist]

52. Dean was always a centrist, despite the Lakoffian framing for liberals.

I'm disappointed. I thought Dean may have changed his views over time, but I guess he still has trouble deciding from week to week whether he's liberal or centrist.

[mmonk]

67. He's right. I'm inflexible when it comes to Constitutional rights.

If politicians were too, this country would be a better place.

[piratefish08]

68. Inflexible. Yes. Exactly. The constitiution IS inflexible.

[bunkerbuster1]

74. Et tu, Howard?

[geek tragedy]

75. Is he angling for Robert Gibbs's job? nt

[bunkerbuster1]

77. How are his hippie-punching skillz?

[lunatica]

78. Inflexible? Really?

The Left gets pushed out and marginalized and constantly insulted as being The Left until they want our votes. Funny how progressive they become with their promises when their campaigning and how they drop the charade completely when they get elected.

The Left's problem is that we should be more inflexible.

I still like you Howard but I disagree on this.

[lunatica]

79. Inflexible? Really?

The Left gets pushed out and marginalized and constantly insulted as being The Left until they want our votes. Funny how progressive they become with their promises when their campaigning and how they drop the charade completely when they get elected.

The Left's problem is that we should be more inflexible.

I still like you Howard but I disagree on this.

[Senator]

81. K&+R

[JerseygirlCT]

82. I was really shocked and saddened to hear Dean saying this

I thought much better of him.

You're right - he's wrong, and exhibiting some pretty base prejudice.

[marmar]

84. Is it "Take Potshots at Liberals" Month or something?

nt

[DevonRex]

88. He's not even making any sense. There IS no flexibility here. This is the land they own.

This is where they have the permits. Palin says it shouldn't be built there. Howard said they should move. What's the difference in real terms?

Yesterday I was holding out hope that the YouTube clip had been edited. Obviously it wasn't. Dean is absolutely wrong on this and it makes me sick.

[dionysus]

96. well, watch some pure bigotry get pulled out of rear ends to justify this shit!

hillarious to see some "pure Liberals(TM)" espousing pure religious bigotry at the drop of a hat over this!

damn muslins!

[DevonRex]

97. Amazing what gets pulled out of there sometimes.

Kind of like that show, "My dog ate WHAAATTT???"

[seattleblue]

143. The don't own the land. Con Ed owns 51 Park Place.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/half_baked_mosque_8ItuaW0WIByZa5xZ0rCmpJ#ixzz0w3PcIfWY

[RandomThoughts]

94. He's messing with some of the Republicans I would guess.

LOL

[JCMach1]

106. Dean is right, why is THIS site so important for the Islamic Center

It was definitely intended to put forward a provocative political message from the beginning. So, Dean is definitely not out of line when suggesting compromise. If it isn't political for the Muslim group, what's the harm in moving.

None I think... unless they choose to make it a political issue.

...he stressed that he would not have a problem if the proposed Islamic cultural center ultimately ended up being built in the current location.

"It won't upset me," Dean said, "except I think it is a missed opportunity to show some flexibility... I don't believe all this nonsense the right wing is putting out about radicals and all that stuff. I take the congregation at its word that it is a moderate congregation trying to heal the wounds of 9/11. But the best way to heal the wounds is not to have a court battle, but to sit down and try to work things out."... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/dean-stands-by-mosque-rem_n_687049.html

[SemiCharmedQuark]

108. They had the permit granted and now they are being questioned because of bigotry

I can't believe people are defending this shit.

[JCMach1]

112. I still can't believe people didn't think it was going to royally piss people off

The group wanting to build the center at this point should back down for the same reason that I (if I were a publisher would not re-publish the Mohd. cartoons (PBUH).

Yes, you could indeed have the right to (i.e. publish cartoons, or build the center)... but only if your goal is political confrontation at this point.

And yes, the bigots and the right-wing have stirred this up... man but so did Obama by weighing and raising the profile of the issue.

All this has done is to serve no one when what ultimately we should be looking at is a local zoning issue.

So no, I don't think it is wrong at all to ask the group to de-escalate this... and that seems to be the point Dean is making.

[Raineyb]

145. Why the fuck are you defending this shit? This is straight up bigotry. And none of the excuses

you've come up with changes that. The have the right to build. It is not a right to build so long as certain classes of bigots give the okay. In that case they wouldn't be able to build anywhere. These are people who already have a presence in the neighborhood. Who the fuck are you to tell them that building in a neighborhood that they are a part of is verboten just because some racist assholes decided to make a stink.

[Karenina]

146. Isn't an underground MALL planned ON the GZ site?

Does that mean that no American Muslims will be permitted to run shops or be seen there in case their presence stirs up "feelings?" Will 9/11 families, should they visit the site, be issued Arab Alert(TM) panic buttons so in the case they happen upon some Samoan tourists ;-) they can call security to have them removed because of their "feelings?" :shrug:

[Raineyb]

161. I will admit to not paying all that much attention to the plans because I found it all rather

uninteresting. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least for there to be some sort of shopping available. And going by the logic of these people they probably will toss out every person that causes them to set off their Arab Alert(TM) panic button as you aptly described it. Maybe they think they can use it to toss out any black or brown person as a lot of African Americans are converting to Islam as well. And you know how scary those black folk can be.

On a slightly tangential note, I didn't see a giant outcry for Beck, a blatant bigot, to use the spot where Dr. Martin Luther King made his I have a dream speech, on the anniversary of said speech to not use that spot, on that day, out of any sensitivity to who people who actually respect Dr. King. It's a non issue so long as he obtains the permits. But I guess in this country only the sensitivities of bigots count for anything.

:shrug:

This "controversy" is pissing me off.

[Sea Witch]

116. What if it was a black church in a white nieghborhood?

Would that upset you? Or what if blacks in the 60's had decided that their rights were not worth making others uncomfortable, that the front of the bus or the seat at the counter just wasn't a big deal?

There are many Muslims in that area so that is why they are building their community center there. It makes sense.

What does not make sense is this odd sense by many Americans that the people killed on 911 were all white, christian born in the USA and thefore their resting place needs to be free of "others" who might taint it.

This is NYC a place where you find people of every race, creed, color, nation of origin- probably more so then any other place on the planet.

Muslims did not attack on 911. A few radical nutjobs did. To blame them all, especially the most peaceful sect, is bigotry at it's very basest form. Fear and ignorance.

[Kahuna]

120. +1000

:applause:

[coti]

129. It's not for you to ask!

They're not doing anything wrong! There's no "provocative political message" going on.

Leave them alone! It's very simple.

[Sea Witch]

115. I am surprised and disappointed by his remarks

We SHOULD be inflexible when it comes ro racism and bigotry, no matter who it makes "uncomfortable".

[Raineyb]

121. And Dean is still fucking wrong. There is no flexibility when it comes to dealing with bigots.

I suspect if he had ever been on the receiving end of racism in this country that he'd understand that better. He is quite privileged in that he has never been asked to validate his existence to assholes who hate him based on his outward appearance.

[rucky]

125. This is so disappointing.

I still like Dean, but he's way wrong on this issue.

[Better Believe It]

126. Showing flexibility with racists and right-wing Republicans has never worked out very well

"They don't have to move," Dean said. "But the fact of the matter is, for better or worse, since 9/11 this country has been badly divided -- particularly by right wing politicians exploiting those divisions -- and this is an opportunity to bring the country together."

The accommodation and flexibility which Dean recommends only encourages bigots, it doesn't stop or weaken them.

I generally like and agree most of the time with Howard Dean but imagine if Dean had said something similar back in 1963 in response to the civil rights demonstrations demanding the right to vote in the south:

Dean, speaking on New York's WABC-AM radio, said he would like to see a compromise on the issue of voting rights for Negroes - one that includes moving the voting rights demonstrations out of Selma, Alabama and to another less controversial site in the north. He adds, however, that "people should be able to vote as they see fit."

Dean argues that though the backers of the voting rights project are "trying to do something that's good" and integrate Negroes "into the fabric of the United States," the issue is "very delicate" and there should be a compromise "so that everybody is accommodated by this."

That would have been horrible.

Does he or any progressive really think that New York followers of Islam should be viewed as being somehow responsible for 9/11, certainly more than Jews or Christians, and therefore should surrender to racist demands by the right-wing? If one buys into that, you can also be convinced that the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq was behind the 9/11 terrorist attack.

[readmoreoften]

156. More fun bipartisanship....

Just like gaybashing and Goldman Saching.

[krabigirl]

127. He needs to read the constitution.

[Jim Sagle]

131. Some on this thread cite the First Amendment as a reason to shut down Howard Dean along with anyone

who dares to agree with him.

Neat. Incredibly dishonest, but neat. Dishonest because Dean didn't call for the government to stop this mosque, he merely appealed to common decency among its sponsors.

Good luck with that.

[pinboy3niner]

134. How is 'common decency' not a dishonest argument?

When Park 51 opponents appeal for common decency and sensitivity to the feelings of 9/11 families, they mean only SOME 9/11 families--the ones who want Park 51 to move. They exclude all the 9/11 families who support Park 51.

And why is it that no one ever calls for common decency and sensitivity to the MUSLIM 9/11 families, who are being told that it's an 'affront' for them to have a religious center and mosque in an area where OTHER religious centers and houses of worship are perfectly fine?

[dionysus]

138. no, you can espouse all the bigotry you want... no one's stopping you jim. you just called bigotry

"common decency".

tell us how you really feel!

:rofl:

[Jim Sagle]

142. On the contrary, you just labelled common decency "bigotry." So THERE!

[Karenina]

159. Just as nearly a century of American foriegn policy

came home to roost, you're about to be treated to a WAVE of anti-Muslim propaganda which will bring Americans' latent ;-) tendencies home to roost. Sister Sarah built the bomb plant, Faux provided materiel, then Pammie starts playing with matches.
It's actually quite depressing.

[Fumesucker]

158. Who here has advocated the government silencing Dean on this subject?

I've just read the entire thread and I've not encountered a single instance of anyone wishing for the government to silence anyone at all, let alone Howard Dean.

[Arkana]

133. I think the irony meter just exploded.

[hatrack]

137. I tend to be a bit "inflexible" on that whole "First Amendment thing".

Sorry you're not, Doctor.

[unkachuck]

139. me thinks....

....the Good Doctor is committing political mal-practice....

....Governor, you're way off the mark, completely wrong, and you can't get much wronger than that....

[donheld]

140. +1

[western mass]

141. Dean...digs deeper. Shameful.

[Supply Side Jesus]

154. I aint very flexable when it comes to the constitution...

call me silly...

[readmoreoften]

155. Basically why I'm skeptical of all the Democratic candidates. The only solid iberal

is Kucinich but when all is said and done his role is to play a liberal on TV, to rally the progressives towards the centrist sell-out after putting up a nice public fight. This was really clear when he caved over health care. All righteous indignation and big talk one day, then on board with the forced insurance scam the next after he'd been attacking it as just that. Either he is being threatened or it's just his routine. Either answer doesn't bode well for the Party.