Historical question. Did the Nazis move to close down Catholic Churches

[mmonk]

and orphanages in a campaign against religion? I wanted to check the accuracy of a story by someone that was published.

[hatrack]

1. Nah, that's BS - once Pacelli (who became Pope Pius not long after) . . .

. . . had the pledge from the Nazis that they wouldn't interfere with Church authority/autonomy in control of parochial school education, the Vatican sort of, uh, eased up on that whole human rights/involuntary euthanasia/religious persecution thing . . . In return, not much talk from the Church about what was going on from the mid-1930s on, with a few exceptions by a few gutsy priests.

Once in the Vatican, Pacelli issued one meek, veiled little squawk about the Holocaust in either late 1943 or early 1944, IIRC. Good timing there, Yer Holiness. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

2. And some gutsy Sisters

Many of whom hid Jewish children, and many of whom paid the price for this by being sent to death camps.

[CTyankee]

3. I guess you read "Hitler's Pope" which was about Pacelli...nt

[hobbit709]

4. And how the church helped all the Nazis escape after the war.

[DailyGrind51]

20. Hitler banned Catholic organizations, replacing Catholic rituals with those of the SS!

"Upon attaining office and enjoying a free hand, what line did Hitler take on religion and the Church? Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise). The latter was a measure applied to other youth organizations too, in order to free up young people to join the Hitler Youth. At the same time, Hitler also made an agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs. (It is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements.) Parents were pressured to take their children out of religious schools. When the Church organized voluntary out-of-hours religious classes, the Nazi government responded by banning state-employed teachers from taking part. The Crucifix symbol was even at one point banned from classrooms in one particular jurisdiction, Oldenburg, in 1936, but the measure met with fierce public resistance and was rescinded. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria. Later on, though, a wartime metal shortage was used as the excuse for melting church bells (Richard Grunberger, The Twelve Year Reich, Henry Holt, Henry Holt, 1979 and Richard Grunberger, A Social History of the Third Reich, Penguin, 1991).

Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an “Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge” (the phrase is Burleigh’s own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels.)

The SS were particularly anti-Christian, and officers and men were encouraged to leave the Church, although those that refused to renounce their Christian faith were not visibly punished, perhaps because their otherwise faithful adherence to SS codes of behaviour gave the lie to any claim of true Christian affiliation. The SS also brought in its own neo-pagan rituals for marriage ceremonies and baptisms."

http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

[Warren Stupidity]

5. they got along

that doesn't mean that there were not specific cases that would fit your description, but the catholic and lutheran churches were not suppressed and their leaders accommodated the nazi regime.

[WinkyDink]

6. The Catholic Church aided Nazis in their escape, so I kinda doubt that, big-time.

[melm00se]

7. there was an uneasy alliance

between the Catholic Church and the Nazi Party as the Nazi's viewed the Catholic Church as a significant power to block the expansion of Communism. The agreement was that the Nazis would not interfere/act against the Church and the Church wouldn't comment on politics

that all changed in 1937 (i think) when the nazi party moved and began arresting priests. The Vatican responded with an encyclical entitled "With burning anxiety" which was written in German and read from the German pulpits. this began the slide from uneasy agreement to outright action against the Church. The Nazis arrested and sent almost 3000 priests to Dachau. They dissolved all monasteries and abbeys and those ended up in the hands of the Nazis.

[mmonk]

9. The story in question was from a woman who lived in Germany at the time.

I have heard so many conflicting views, one never knows where the truth lies. Religion itself can be contentious as scape goats are looked for in what the Nazis did instead of Germans taking responsibility for their actions no matter their faith basis. I have no doubt in the rise of their power, they had support from Christendom in Germany. But later, I heard all that fell apart as the party wanted complete control of German society.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. the two institutions had a working arrangement.

so anecdotes or not, the facts are what they are. Individuals within the church acted against the regime, individuals within the church were persecuted, the institution itself is rightly condemned for its war time accommodation with fascism.

[mmonk]

13. My question does not surround anecdotes.

My question concerns historical accuracy, not bits and pieces to establish any points.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. the historical record of interest is the 1933 concordat

as others mentioned, the vatican played within these rules, although after 1937 relations were strained.

[mmonk]

22. That well may be the case. My question was more specific

concerning the lady's story about shutting down Churches and orphanages in the early 40's. That is the one I'm fact checking.

[phasma ex machina]

23. The Leadership Corps participated in the confiscation of church and religious property.

A letter dated 19 April 1941 from Reichsleiter Bormann to Reichsleiter Rosenberg exposes the participation of the Gauleiter in measures relating to the confiscation of religious property (072-PS). The letter reads in part as follows: "The libraries and art objects of the monasteries confiscated in the Reich were to remain for the time being in these monasteries, insofar as the Gauleiter had not determined otherwise." (072-PS)

On 21 February 1940, the Chief of the Security Police and SD, Heydrich, wrote a letter to the Reichsfuehrer SS, Himmler, proposing that certain listed churches and monasteries be confiscated for the accommodation of so- called racial Germans. (Himmler was a Reichsleiter in the Leadership Corps by virtue of his position as Reichsfuehrer of the SS.) After pointing out that, on political grounds, outright expropriation of religious property would not be feasible at the time, Heydrich suggested certain specious interim actions with respect to the church properties in question, to be followed progressively - by outright confiscation (R-101-A). Heydrich's letter makes the following statements:



"Enclosed is a list of church possessions which might be available for the accommodation of Racial Germans. The list, which please return, is supplemented by correspondence and illustrated material pertinent to the subject.

"For political reasons, expropriation without indemnity of the entire property of the churches and religious orders will hardly be possible at this time.

"Expropriation with indemnity or in return for assignment of other lands and grounds will be even less possible.

"It is therefore suggested that the respective authorities of the Orders be instructed that they make available the monasteries concerned for the accommodation of Racial Germans and remove their own members to other less populous monasteries.

"The final expropriation of these properties placed at our disposal can then be carried out step by step in course of time." (R-101-A)

On 5 April 1940, the Chief of the Security Police and of the Security Service SS sent a letter to the Reich Commissioner for the consolidation of Germandom, enclosing a copy of the foregoing letter from Heydrich to Himmler proposing the confiscation of church properties (R-101-A). The letter of 5 April 1940 stated:

"The Reich Leader SS has agreed to the proposals made in the enclosed letter and has ordered the matter to be dealt with by collaboration between the Chief of the Security Police and Security Service and your office." (R-101-A)

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-02/nca-02-15-criminality-02-10.html

[melm00se]

14. in essence

up to 1937 the Nazis and Church, while not best buddies, were not active opponents.

in 1937 that began to change.

the Church did sit on it's hands during much of the war but did so in an effort to protect the thousands of Catholic clergy who were imprisoned (the number is somewhere above 5000 who died in the camps).

[Liberal In Texas]

8. I don't think so...

Just google Hitler church.

[mmonk]

11. Doing so is hard to separate anti-Catholicism with fact.

The picture actually doesn't prove anything if you are governed by an oppressive government.

[phasma ex machina]

12. Given how Nazis exterminated nearly 3,000,000 Polish Catholics there's a fair chance that some

churches and orphanages got shut down.



A Polish priest, Father Piotr Sosnowski,
before his execution, near Gdynia, late 1939

[mmonk]

15. I am familiar with the fate of the Polish Churches as that is better documented.

My questions are surrounding those in Germany. Churches like to say Hitler and the Nazis were really atheists. However, I don't swallow that due to the fact Germany was heavily Christian and no one espousing atheism could take power IMO.

[DailyGrind51]

18. My father's cousins were Polish Catholics and murdered at Auschwitz.

Nearly as many Polish Catholics were exterminated as Polish Jews, about 2.5 million Catholics to 3.0 million Jews, with 0.5 million Roma, homosexuals, Freemasons, union leaders, and Jehovah's Witnesses. This was just the death toll in Poland!

[OHdem10]

16. Sadly , there was cooperation with the Catholic Church.(Fascism)

It was the Communists whose first moves was to close down
religion.

[dembotoz]

17. saw a documentary on the life of dietrich bohnhoffer

prot theologian who ended up in the camps and was executed.

Per the film-during the rise to power, the christian faith-both catholic and prot
(with some exceptions) played very nice nice with Hitler.

Bohnhoffer (i know i am spelling his name creatively) started getting in trouble because
he did not go along with the majority of the clergy.

As for orphanages-realize Hitler was not friend to people with special needs.
Orphanages might be a something that might have recieved different treatment than the church as a whole.

[Progressive_In_NC]

21. William Donovan did an extensive study now housed at Cornell

Donavan was a prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials. He put together a pretty detailed study of the Nazi's plans to exterminate christianity. I was lucky enough during my master's work in history in North Carolina to visit up there and read some of the collection. My Thesis was on Hyper Inflation and the Rise of Nazi Power.

http://library.lawschool.cornell.edu/WhatWeHave/SpecialCollections/Donovan/


If you look here:

http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/donovan/show.asp?id=773&query=christianity

the abstract reads:

This R & A report provides its own description on its title page: "This study describes, with illustrative factual evidence, Nazi purposes, policies and methods of persecuting the Christian Churches in Germany and occupied Europe." The report characterizes the National Socialist ideology of aggressive warfare as inherently inimical to Christianity and the Christian Churches, and names specific actions the Nazis took to suppress, terrorize, intimidate, and otherwise persecute Christian clergy and churches within Germany and in the conquered territories annexed to the Reich. For each case, the report suggests a means of solving "The Problem of Proof." This document is a typewritten mimeograph copy of excellent quality on sturdy, slightly browning paper.

There are 8 pages on the relations between the Catholic Church and the Nazi Party. The relations were distrustful and never really good. By the end of the war, they were down right hateful. The document is now available in PDF format here and the pertinent pages are from page 10 to page 18:

http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/donovan/pdf/Nuremberg_3/Vol_X_18_03_02.pdf


Hope that helps.

[mdmc]

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