About the deniers - read this: An aspiring musician writes ( "Why Can’t They Hear?")

[ConsAreLiars]

From and more at: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/an-aspiring-musician-writes/

It is a pressing question, especially at the moment. During Bush’s 2nd term in office the Left regrouped after Kerry’s loss and was steering away from power politics. Grassroots activism was on the rise and many educational successes were occurring. And yet now, if you ask the average American about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, global warming, socialism, etc. you get a bland, dull, regurgitation of mainstream talking points. This despite the fact that so many damning statistics have been established, and seemingly accepted, and so many debates have been won by the intellectual Left. But this is not triggering a wider consciousness and sparking the progressive imagination. Why?

If you talk to the average person about any substantive political issue the person really seems incapable of accepting the real truth of the matter. If you tell a person who is neutral on the issue of Iraq that over one million Iraqis have been killed and that the US is responsible for those deaths under international law because it committed (and is committing) “aggression”, they have no real response. Or some kind of weak response about the statistic being a matter of debate or that they don’t have an opinion because they can’t do anything about. But those powerful statistics do not stick in their minds. I have wealthier friends and relatives and if I was try to prove to them that over one million Iraqis have been killed from the war they would simply not accept it, no matter how much evidence I had and regardless of the mountain of proof there is for this claim. They simply will not accept these facts, because they can’t. I think this generalizes throughout American society too, at least that portion which is middle class or higher.

Another such fact that cannot be accepted by the American public is that the US killed over 3 million people in the Vietnam War. They will think you are misinformed, even if you present them with overwhelming evidence which supports your case. They will not accept it because they have no way to cope with it:

For if the United States, the country to which they love, or at least belong, is responsible for killing over a million in Iraq in a “war” then that is comparable to the Armenian Holocaust carried out by the Turks after World War 1. And if the United States killed over 3 million people in the Vietnam War which was a war of aggression, that is half the amount of Jews who were killed by the Nazis in the Jewish Holocaust. But we are Americans. There is no way that our crimes could be comparable to any Holocausts. There is no way that we are similar to the Nazis. I mean, look how free our society is and how little violence there is by the State in our daily lives. How could these statistics possibly be true? They can’t. At least they can’t be true for those who have something to lose. Those who have some stock in American power.

The Left has truth on its side but the truth at this moment seems too hard for Americans to face. They are incapable of it. And so the question for us now is how do we get Americans to face the truths of which they largely already know? The truths seem so obvious and plain that it hardly seems worthwhile to get angry over or to even debate.

(see link for more)

[Chulanowa]

1. Because we've been told all opinions are equally valid for years now

"Indifference" is the default position of most Americans, because for well over twenty years, the media culture has been presenting it as the only viable option. Sure, there are debatable points, but the response from those holding the debate is always always "I guess we'll never know who's right or who's wrong, or even if there is a right and a wrong!"

This results in the American audience basically being told there are no answers, so you might as well not take any particular position. It's a collective "meh" from the nation at this point. The very presence of a debate is taken as a cue to take no positions, to have no opinion, and hope it sorts itself out for you can know who "won" and take their side.

[Oregone]

2. Interesting take

[ConsAreLiars]

3. True enough. "Not MY problem." Two sides are just shouting nonsense. But there is also the fact

that the population in general support the invasions and slaughters. There is not only massive ignorance about what "us" and "them" actually are, there is support for and identification with the "them," the monsters.

The essay adds this as a further bit of explanation:

The teachings of Christ that I just mentioned appear over and over again throughout the Gospels. The only deviation from these teachings in the New Testament is in Revelations, but it should be remembered the Revelations is a “vision” that John had 60 years after Christ had been killed; it is not the retelling of an actual event. And so there are the teachings of Christ: peace, mercy, humility, compassion, forgiveness, non-possession, etc. Are any of these teachings reflected in the Christian Church? I don’t see how it can be claimed that it is. The Christian Church in this country is in favor of American imperialism: American imperialism with all its horrifyingly immense amounts of bloodshed and misery. The Church shamelessly proclaims American greatness with no explanation as to why we are great. The Christian Church supports and praises the rich. It arrogantly declares our superiority as a people, as if we all have the same interests and beliefs. The Church quite truthfully loves war and thinks that the illegal wars which we are pursuing are indications of our nobility, not a matter for shame or repentance. The logic of the Church is so backwards that when it’s combined with that divine like self-righteousness which religion offers, you create very fanatical and dangerous thinking. Racist thinking. Genocidal thinking. And genocidal thinking becomes the norm when these institutions wield great power.

James Baldwin writes, “It seems to me, then, that the most serious thing that has happened in the world today and in the Christian conscience is that Christians, having rationalized their crimes for so long, though they live with them every day and see the evidence of them everyday, they put themselves out of touch with themselves.” Despite the time that has elapsed since he wrote it, it seems just as true today and just as dangerous. When your moral codes and your world outlook are wrapped up in fantasy and delusion (which is what the Christian Church must preach because it cannot preach the true words of Christ) you become totally out of touch with yourself and your own instincts towards what is right and wrong. But why do so many truly intelligent people accept this hypocrisy? Is it that they do not know the hypocrisy exists or that they refuse to believe it because religion has always been something that was more a tradition than an actual vibrant morality for them? Or do so many wealthy Americans choose the Church because they feel they have no better options to turn to? Or is it, worst of all possible, that they choose the Church because it justifies to them their participation in what they know to be immoral? Is the Church a way for guilt ridden Americans to buy themselves a ticket to heaven? Is it a way to absolve their conscience? Is obedience to the Church simply the easiest option?

Baldwin writes, “Most people are not wicked, most people are terribly lazy, most people are terribly afraid of acting on what they know.” I think this is a good answer. People, for the most part, want the easiest way possible and they create a weak defense for themselves which offers them justification for what they do and how they live. Since they are never challenged on these issues by anyone, they never have to face the truth. Their belief system deteriorates by their sloth and slowly everything becomes justifiable. I think we’ve seen American society slide slowly down that path in the last decade.

[Chulanowa]

4. Indifference, support, materially the same thing

as the saying goes, "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

But yes, there are a few issues that the American people are very stridently opinionated on. Unfortunately their opinions are measured by volume, not by weight. Immigration, Israel / Palestine, and taxes are three things that come immediately to mind when I think of something that Americans express strong opinions about. Theyr'e also among the top ten things that those same Americans can't explain or discuss in any intelligent fashion.

They have opinions, but no actual positions. They can regurgitate what they've been told, but have not sought to inform themselves; why bother, they've been told all they need to know. Plus it must feel good, get the endorphins flowing. to actually have an opinion amid an otherwise empty sea of apathy.

[ConsAreLiars]

5. "opinions, but no actual positions."

That is it exactly. Opinions about brand names, celebrities, TV shows, and anything else they've heard repeated over and over. Everybody says...

That's why I brought the us-them reality into this discussion. That involves both knowing ones real position in that reality (the first hard part), as well as acting in accord with that understanding (the second part).

Once everyone understood the message of this song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g - some rallied behind it and others wanted such voices silenced, but the nature of the real conflict was more widely recognized.

[Chulanowa]

6. I adore that song

I prefer the Dropkick Murphys' version myself, but then I'm a huge fan of Irish punk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKWfnO7fhQM

But I don't think the US population is as star-dazzled as you think. They have nothing of substance to say about those subjects, either. They basically reflect their media; a few moments of shallow attention, then it's forgotten and the next thing takes precedence. If the media is talking endlessly about a pop star's vulva 24 / 7, then that will be the first thing in discussion. It's not that people give a fuck, it's just what they're presented. It's vapid babble. And to be honst, few of them voice any strong opinions about that subject. it's just chatter.

[ConsAreLiars]

7. Thanks for that link . Better than Seeger.

Not just asking for better, but demanding basic human rights.