Anti-Illegal-Immigrant Law OK'd in Texas - Whats next an anti-black people ordinance?

[NNN0LHI]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_TEXAS?SITE=ILKAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

By ANABELLE GARAY
Associated Press Writer

FARMERS BRANCH, Texas (AP) -- Voters in this Dallas suburb became the first in the nation Saturday to prohibit landlords from renting to most illegal immigrants.

The ban was approved by a vote of 68 percent to 32 percent in final, unofficial returns.

The balloting marked the first public vote on a local government measure to crack down on illegal immigration.

"It says especially to Congress that we're tired of the out-of-control illegal immigration problem. That if Congress doesn't do something about it, cities will," said Tim O'Hare, a City Council member who was the ordinance's lead proponent.

The ordinance requires apartment managers to verify that renters are U.S. citizens or legal immigrants before leasing to them, with some exceptions.

[MrSlayer]

1. What are the exceptions?

If the illegal immigrant works for one of them or their pet companies? I wonder.

[KharmaTrain]

2. I'm Curious If This Law Is Applied To ALL "Illegals"

How about the Pole or Korean or Chinese or non-Mexican who has out-stayed a visa or green card? I'd like to see how many of those are rounded up. And always, there's no punishment for those who profit from the cheap, underground labor pool...but then they never have...it's someone elses mess now. Thanks to Lou Doobies, we don't need to pay attention to the true economic, social and class warfare going on here...just round up anyone who looks Mexican and that's the cure-all, end-all.

[Deja Q]

5. It should be.

Sadly, like everything else in life, it won't be.

And Lou Dobbs has covered far more than the illegal alien issue.

http://www.infomanagementcenter.com/enewsletter/200502/third.htm

[KharmaTrain]

11. How's That Corporate Scoreboard Coming???

For every one step forward I've seen Lou do, I've seen him take three back. He has exposed some of the underside of the corporate world, but then retreats when it gets too close to his beloved Wall Street. When it's "unfair competition" from "Red" China (just using that name tells you something) or "illegals", the focus is kept off the corporates that profit from the bypassing of American labor and profiteering off all sides.

Lou really has blown his credibility on this issue with his citing of racist and far right "experts"...that are pure race baiting and has inflamed a situation that is completely misunderstood. His outrage is selective...and in this case, one is judged by the company he keeps and the sources he regularly cites.

Cheers...

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Here here

Great point. And can I say how sad I am for the people who live in the town that approved this law?

[KharmaTrain]

31. Think Of It As A New Form Of Segregation

I've seen many forms of quiet, subtle racism and segregation in the housing market in recent years and how communities have worked to keep certain groups from moving into their areas. Much of it is price-based...even the smallest homes are now beyond the reach of anyone who earns less than 60k a year, thus the renters and poorer people live in complexes on the edge of these town and that's still not good enough. They don't think about the Hispanic (and they're not all illegal) who built that nice house they live in or mowed their lawn or made their quickie burger...they just hear the language and see the skin color and that's the trigger. It's as though Hispanics have replaced blacks as the target of racism and a target for social ills created by the situation around them.

This country has created a xenophobia that has manifested into a false superiority...one that permates how our corporate media portrays issues and how corporate America markets and profits. No matter what occurs, the focus always is on how it affects "American" self-interests and that other cultures are either technically or socially unsophisiticated and thus our society has the "moral" high ground.

CHeers...

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. I doubt this law will solve the immigration problem

And it's so sad.

[hughee99]

144. While I'm sure it "applies" to all illegals...

it will, of course, be selectively enforced.

[ikojo]

3. No, they'd never get such an ordinance passed

so the folks who loath blacks take their loathing out on "illegals" and other immigrants of a darker shade.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. There are a growing number of blacks who are very anti illegal

[ikojo]

44. I am aware of that...just as the Irish who were

hardly welcomed when they came to the US in large numbers...they learned to look upon black americans with derision. Now, blacks, a very oppressed group, are looking upon Mexican immigrants with derision.


Divide and conquer

As members of the working class immigrants and native born americans have more in common than not. It serves the corporatists to blame the "other" for the ills of the working class.

[EFerrari]

235. Exactly. n/t

[Deja Q]

4. Illegal aliens only serve to do a disservice to hard working people who come here legally.

I've been trying to think of other perspectives on the issue, but I'm not finding any.

And when I talk about people who come here legally, I mean people who really want to be here, to help America and themselves. Not the folks being shipped in for some cheap H1B training then shipped back to their home countries. (yes, the wrongdoing corporations have a big part to play, but it takes two to tango and if these same people otherwise hate the US, they have no business doing what they are doing. But I digress.)

Besides, if we render all the illegal aliens legal, what will they use all those illegal alien detention centers for? Wal-mart outlets?


And back to offshoring, if it was about globalization, all these American jobs and economy wouldn't have been put in such jeopardy; or at least the price of wages AND the cost of living would have been made to match what they are paying the booming Indian and Chinese middle classes. But that hasn't happened yet.

[havocmom]

19. Offshoring is more than just saving on wages. Protection laws matter too

Places with less worker protection and environmental protection get more corporate jobs, and shitty conditions.

But, the rich haven't figured how to offshore their domestic tasks, so they only allow politicians to pretend to fix broken borders. Yep, time to round up the EMPLOYERS

[TahitiNut]

223. Yes, it does ... but there's more to it.

When the kind of labor involves machinery or processes which, if done cheaply, pollute the environment and pose health risks to the workers, we've seen such industries flee the U.S. as soon as the export of capital was massively deregulated. (Once upon a time, the U.S. didn't permit the massive amounts of dollar-denominated instruments, including cash, to be exported to other countries without severe restrictions.) The cheap-labor exploiters found compliant and corruptible politicians on the right to do their bidding in changing the laws.

Such "cheap labor" host countries were and are under the control of people who also take money to be compliant to these cheap-labor exploiters. (Corporate colonialism and plantation economies.) Nothing like calling yourself a 'nationalist' and selling out your countrymen.

But some forms of human labor cannot be profitably exported because the means of production cannot be loaded onto a ship or wire-transferred. That includes land converted for agricultural use.

Once upon a time, populations would migrate to fertile lands and, through their communal labors, produce enough food for themselves as well as some for 'export.' What some exploiters 'discovered' is that they could find very cheap land, get irrigation with the assistance of public funds (the government) and then import labor to work on it. The costs of such an 'enterprise' to these exploiters is/was minimal. The land had virtually no value without either irrigation or labor. It was/is the human labor itself that makes the land 'valuable'!!! Simply stated, the ownership bought cheap and got others to create the 'value' ... and CASH IN. It's not just land as a means of production that has created a 'capital gain' (the massive income owners get from the labors of others) but it's the easiest to comprehend.

But the first phase had to be to ship out the industries (e.g. manufacturing) in which the local people were laboring and create job-seekers - if not of those unemployed then of their children!


Among the despicable dishonesties of these people is their failure to identify one of the reasons that Japan and Germany (and even France) were competing so effectively for industrial investment on the global market. It was in large part because of the national health care systems that such industries both didn't have to 'manage' and had a much lower cost and higher effectiveness. That's what happened in the 70s and early 80s. Then the regulations were decimated and all hell broke loose in M&A and off-shoring. The Rape of the American Worker - and it's been going on since then.

[crispini]

40. Illegal immigrants are all over the place here, and they build houses, wash dishes, and cut lawns.

Illegal immigrants come because people like to pay less for labor so they can pay less for their houses and their dinners and their yard man.

Wave a magic wand tomorrow, magically remove all of the illegal immigrants, and the price of everything in North Texas would go up 50%.

[mitchtv]

72. Same here, So Cal desert

Somehow I doubt all the Canadians who come here are interested in picking grapes in 115 degree sun.The Americans work alongside the Mex's on construction projects, but not in the same job titles, by and large. Towns in San Diego county are doing the same with the landlords, and running into a lot of resistance. Their attitude seems to be " you're good enough to work here, but get out of town after dark"

[TahitiNut]

74. Nonsense.

A head of lettuce costs about $1.00 ... and less than $0.03 goes to the field labor. It is a complete falsehood that paying decent, livable wages would cause such monstrous increases in the cost of goods sold. It wouldn't. What causes that increase is the sense of "entitlement" of the owners that thinks that they have to make twice as much as those who do the work.

If you take a look at the ratio of employee compensation to net operating revenues for the S&P500, you'll see that employees are responsible for net operating revenues more than double what they're paid, including 'benefits.' I'm not going to go into all the arcane accounting rules that then shift "costs of ownership" off the balance sheet to report profits far less than net operating revenues, but you can be sure that employees receive far less than 1/3rd of what they earn. That employee compensation includes executive and management compensation as well! It doesn't take much imagination, given that executive compensation is 300-400 times the average employee compensation, to know that the people at the bottom end of the pay scale, doing most of the grunt work, are getting screwed.

I have a neighbor who's a carpenter/construction worker. He can't find work that pays a living wage. He's NOT trying to get rich - just survive. Even in Michigan, the construction 'trades' are now shifting to Eastern European and Latin American immigrant/migrant laborers, both legal and illegal. When the insurance contractor subcontracted the roof repair on my mother's house, the guys who did the work were Poles who couldn't speak even minimal English. All of them. We didn't ask what they earned or even ask to see their papers. But to think that Michigan, having the worst unemployment in the country, has solely immigrant/migrant labor on such a project - when not more than 30 years ago the construction trades were all-American jobs and strongly unionized in this state, is to be delusional.

Once upon a time, a really good pair of sneakers was about $25-30 in today's money. Now that Nike, Reebok, Adidas, and others use east Asian sweatshops, a good pair of sneakers costs $75-150. That "cheap labor" sure did the trick, didn't it? I really don't know how stupid people have to be to think that labor costs are what make the products expensive. That's just total bullshit.

[crispini]

129. Okay, you are more correct than me.

But isn't that why these corporations want to use illegal immigrants? To make money? They do not have to pay these illegal immigrants a living wage or provide them with decent working conditions, and they use this source of cheap labor to hurt the unions. Anyway, my whole beef with this stupid ordinance is that it does nothing to solve the problem. If they really want to solve this problem, work first on enforcement at the border. Second line of defense, crack down on the demand -- the employers. This kind of ordinance just strikes me as venting frustration but won't do a damn thing except make race relations worse.

[TahitiNut]

143. The #1 underlying problem is greed, imho.

The employers of illegal aliens are able to pay below any compensation rate (including no benefits and often with kickbacks) that a legal resident/citizen or (even) a 'guest worker' is willing to take and the illegal alien (NOT immigrant) is neither able to vote nor join a union nor file complaints regarding illegal practices or unsafe working conditions.

These exploitative employers have several sources of cheap(er) labor that cannot vote and exercise their political rights of self-determination in this country:
(1) illegal aliens who have no intention of immigrating or bringing their families (i.e. "undocumented" guest workers)
(2) illegal 'immigrants' who live under the radar with some immediate or extended family who may or may not be legal residents
(3) "guest workers" admitted under poorly-run programs
(4) incarcerated felons serving time in a prison and working in "prison industry"
(5) ex-felons from our over-populated prison system who've been denied the entitlement to vote
(6) legal residents under a variety of work visas (e.g. H-1B) who allege no intention to immigrate
(7) permanent resident aliens ("green card") who have not applied for citizenship for a variety of reasons including language skills

Once various businesses start employing people from these cheap labor sources, other businesses feel forced to do the same to remain price-competitive ... and the problem cascades across employers. If they're not conveniently located near one border, they start doing things like packing people in cargo containers in some impoverished overseas nation and shipping them in. This literally creates a modern day version of a "slave trade" - trafficking in human beings.

But it doesn't stop there. That obsession with lowering the cost of labor (which is all another human being is to creatures driven by the Love of Money) can't be sated and even those who benefited from the 'amnesty' granted 20 years ago now find themselves facing the same competition for jobs and the race to the bottom is on!

But the greed isn't limited to businesses ... it's a very contagious disease, greed is. Home landscaping, home handymen, the low end of the skilled trades, maids, cooks ... all available to our fellow Good Germans to reach for that "good life." (It's even better when others have so much less, ya know.)

So, we have to ask ourselves: What motive does a cheap labor employer have to support a foreign policy or a trade policy that pressures other countries to enact more equitable economic systems?? Why is Mexico still a banana republic with an outrageously wealthy elite and a huge impoverished underclass without access even to a decent education??? After all, Mexico is actually a wealthy nation with oil resources (and other resources) that other countries drool over. We're seeing EXACTLY the kind of influence that major corporate interests have on foreign policy in the Cheney/Bush administration - where they've literally created puppet governments in two countries in a mere 6 years! In both countries, their sovereign resources are being placed under the complete ownership of foreign capitalists with long-term, one-sided 'agreements' to pay royalties ... according to the bookkeeping practices that'd make a Broadway producer blush.

And thus the whole world's peoples are being enslaved for their labors - not even having equitable 'rights' to the natural resources of their own nations.

[crispini]

147. Ugh. It all goes back to the birth of the corporation, doesn't it?

I saw that movie, "The Corporation." Very, very depressing. The sad thing about it all is that it seems to me that even 50 years ago there was a belief in a civic society, and respect for our government and institutions. Now, it seems to me that the world is full of the fatcats and oligarchs, and unfortunately, the average American doesn't care enough to become aware or even think about the larger systemic problems we are talking about here. The Farmer's Branch ordinance, it seems to me, is a poorly articulated cry that the people there feel that something is wrong in our society (it is) but instead of looking for root causes, and trying to see the "shades of gray" that make up this complicated world and system we live in... it is a blame the victim mentality. And in order to understand what's really going on here, people will have to have the time to think and understand what is *really* going on -- which too often, they don't have the desire or the time to do..... Where do you think this will all end up?

[TahitiNut]

224. Not the 'corporation' per se... but conglomerates and CORPORATISM.

There's an arguable "deal with the devil" place for corporations ... but what we're seeing is cancerous. It's nothing less than the complete and utter exploitation of human beings globally for the obscene accumulation of wealth and power for a few ... the same kind of corruption as interlinked and intermarried 'monarchies' but without the visibility and exposure to the "Bolshevik solution."

When corporations, not people, can OWN corporations and when corporations are the SOLE arbiters of "national interests" under the guise of which we engage in war and when corporations can operate extraterritorially with abandon - recognizing no 'citizenship' than a paycheck and no allegiance except to an authoritarian internal regime and no morality other than profit - we've become subjects to an autocracy to whom human beings are a means to an end and not an end in themselves. Cattle. Sheep.

"Good people" do "bad things" for what we see as "good reasons." All of us. "Profit" is the Holy Grail of "good reasons" for the corporate drone. Prophets and profits ... the New World Order's catechism.

[spoony]

192. A wonderful post, thank you.

I'm also in Michigan, and anything like this that kicks dirt in the face of the struggling working class just churns my guts.

[spoony]

189. Yes, which is both unfair to the immigrants and to the native work force

Why people here are so adamant in defending the kind of corporatism that lies at the heart of importing workers is a mystery to me.

[crispini]

199. I'm not interested in defending corporatism.

I see the worker here -- both the US worker and the Mexican import -- as the victim of this situation, bad laws and lax enforcement. I just think that legislation like the FB ordinance is only going to promote the blaming of the people who are actually HERE as opposed to trying to fix the system which has brought them here. They are being made scapegoats and easy targets because it's more difficult to figure out who is truly to blame.

[EFerrari]

91. You overlook that fact that your government has systematically

made Mexico and other Latin American countries unlivable SO people would have to leave to EAT.

Aside from that, your lack of empathy for hungry people is distressing.

[spoony]

190. Your lack of empathy for slave labourers is distressing.

It is not humane to support the abuse of these people by greedy profit-driven assholes.

[EFerrari]

236. I don't support that abuse, either by their employers or

by sundown laws.

[TahitiNut]

218. "your government"?? Isn't it yours, as well??

Many seem to be deluded into thinking that hosting 1/6th of the citizens of Mexico in the US is somehow 'good' for ... someone. It's not. It's part and parcel of the exploitation of human beings for their labor ... at the cheapest possible pay.

There is no viable distinction between those who exploit human beings for cheap labor in the U.S. and those who exploiot the impoverished in Mexico and other countries. None! For a sense of this, see my post at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=876550&mesg_id=880081

You say "your lack of empathy for hungry people is distressing." Are you capable of desisting in such smears of other DUers? It's rude and uncivil, to say the least.

[EFerrari]

237. It's not a smear to point out the dehumanization of these workers

in these threads.

And pointing out that labor is exploited is not a defense of sundown laws just as objecting to sumdown laws does not imply approval of the exploitation of labor.

[fasttense]

6. First off, I think your equating illegals with black people

is a bit offensive. Illegal immigrants have broken the law. Black folks have not broken the law.

However it does seem like in this country breaking the law is just a way to pass the time from the pResident on down to the farm worker, not to mention all those employers of illegals that continually break the law with no repercussions.

Instead of making such silly little laws of who you can, and cannot rent to, they should enforce the laws on the books such who you can and cannot hire. All that the current laws require is an adjustment of the fine for hiring illegals like say half a million for each illegal worker you hire and five years in jail. I bet if those laws were enforced there would be no need to do anything about illegal immigrants because they would go home when they couldn't find a job, just like they use to before Raygun stopped enforcing employer sanctions.

[NNN0LHI]

7. If you can't recognize that "illegals" is a code word for brown people this conversation is over

See, ya.

Don

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hangingon]

12. No it is not code.

Illegals break the law on entering the country and then want to push to the head of the line for greencards and citizenship. They use services such as hospitals and schools and don't pay. County hospitals here run huge deficits largely due to illegals. This is a problem not a prejudice.

[crispini]

32. Illegal immigrants come because people here HIRE THEM.

Look in the back of any kitchen in North Texas and you'll find illegal immigrants washing the dishes you eat from.

Visit any construction site here and you'll find illegal immigrants putting up the roof you live under.

And because they work cheap, the cost of living here is FAR below the national average.

But what does Farmers Branch decide to do? Just make it illegal for them to LIVE THERE. Talk about a complete and total Not In My Backyard. And so very, very fascist, too. Papers Please! Next step: citizenship required to buy food at grocery store! There will be an official Farmers Branch issued ID card and your papers will be checked at the border! Fascist Farmers Branch!

It's just so simplistic and stupid.

Wanna crack down on someone, crack down on the Fox and Jacobs, and the D.R. Hortons, and all the other corporate crap builders in the area who are pretty much singlehandedly hiring all of these illegal immigrants. Oh, and make sure you send the ICE the way of every dishwasher in North Texas too. Then watch your housing prices skyrocket, and the cost of every dinner at every stupid chain restaurant all over Suburbia skyrockets.

That's what really frosts my shorts about this whole debate. Every stupid redneck cracker yokel who gets all het up about illegal immigration then turns around and profits from their being here.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crispini]

43. Haha. I'm FROM the country, and FROM the south.

My family are farmers and hunters and they drive 4x4s and shoot guns and have deer heads hanging on their wall. There are plenty of people down here who are good country redneck people who are NOT racist idiots. But I certainly AM going to call every jerk who voted for this ordinance every name in the book, because they deserve it.

[Hangingon]

47. I understand the economics of illegals...

the South Texas economy has everything North Texas has and probably somemore. I respect the will to better of these people to better themselves but I do not agree with their methods. It is fine with me to hold employers responsible - and those that aid and abet illegals. The flood needs to be stopped. We see car chases with illegals routinely. Three illegals have shown up at our house asking for food and water. Drug activity is up. Gang activity is up. Theft is up - we stopped a small group stealing my neighbors tools. Come in legally and pay taxes fine. Seek citizenship and loyatlty to the United Staes and I welcome you. But come in illegally and flood apartments, abuse priviliges and I am for all methods of control.

[JANdad]

98. Do me a favor...will ya

Check the list of countries on the Dept of Homeland Sec. website and let me know which countries ARE NOT ALLOWED to even participate in the visa lottery (for the past 3 years anyway) and then come back here and write: "come here legally"

Even if they wanted to come here legally...THEY CAN'T

The border HAS been shut down for some time now folks...

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. Thank you for an intelligent and reasoned response

and welcome to DU :hi:

[rene moon]

66. Nobody is rushing to "head of the line"

Any immigration bill passed would have all undocumented migrants processed AFTER those who are "in line" first.

And really, there isnt any line. It all depends what country you come from. If you are from Western Europe, they will let them in within 2 yrs or less with open arms.

But if you are from Mexico, or any other Latin American country, then those people are screwed.

[EFerrari]

149. Undocumented workers are a net gain to our economy.

Without them, whole industries would shut down.

Yes, it is code.

And there is no such thing as an illegal human being.

[spoony]

194. There are, however, such things as

illegal business practices, immoral corporatism, illicit ownership of a helpless and abused group of imported slaves, etc.

[EFerrari]

202. Sure! But blaming the victim isn't a reasonable way to deal with them.

:(

[spoony]

205. Unfortunately the compassion shown to

illegal immigrants in those fighting for them to be able to come and stay enables these abuses. Until somebody finally addresses the root of the problem, it would help to try to reduce the numbers of people they import.

[EFerrari]

212. The root of the problem is your government tampering with elections

in Latin American countries as recently happened in Mexico. The progressive reformer won. BushCo sent teams down there to make sure he was never seated.

Can't really criticize Mexico when we are so willing to allow it here.

Poor people usually aren't the root of most problems. They don't have the power to be the root of problems. They just have to try to f#cking survive them.

[TahitiNut]

219. See my post at ...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/386 ... or at ... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=876550&mesg_id=880081

[piedmont]

34. Good luck finding people to pompously lecture to. nt

[wildhorses]

39. don't let the door hit ya in the ass on your way out ---

buh-bye

[Balbus]

55. So why does "illegals" automatically mean brown people to you?

That's pretty racist of you. Are you going to go try to find other racists to talk to now?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

81. It's a steel door on a closed mind that ascribes racism to those who disagree.

Folks might as well be saying "lalalalalalalaIcan'thearyoulalalalala." I have yet to see any indication that there's any listening ... just the same old strawman horseshit and ad hominems on steroids.

[NNN0LHI]

90. Are you trying to suggest that racism has nothing to do with what happened in Farmers Branch?

I would really like to know your answer to this question.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Don

[TahitiNut]

107. Red herring.

As of the census of 2000, there were 27,508 people, 9,766 households, and 6,933 families residing in the city. The population density was 885.1/km² (2,291.9/mi²). There were 10,115 housing units at an average density of 325.5/km² (842.8/mi²). The racial makeup of the city was 78.38% White, 2.40% African American, 0.55% Native American, 2.92% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 13.01% from other races, and 2.71% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 37.23% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers_Branch,_Texas#Demographics


While I have little doubt that people with racial prejudices voted on both sides of the issue, any suggestion that the sole or predominant reason for voting one way or another is attributable to racism is beyond ridiculous and ignorant. While I'm keenly aware of the degree of such attitudes in Texas, it's so fallacious that it makes discussion of this issue with anyone fixated on such a virtually baseless belief less than useless.

[NNN0LHI]

160. So red herring or no red herring you admit that racism was a factor

Just not sure how much of a factor right?

Does that pretty much cover it?

Don

[TahitiNut]

181. Your response is dismissive and prosecutorial (inquisitorial).

You're engaging in demagoguery, not discussion. You claim that I "admit" - as though I'm the accused in some trial and you're the prosecutor. Despite the fact that I've taken some time and thought in responding, you attempt to replace my words with your own - a 'straw-man' tactic. The peremptory tone of the post borders on being rude and uncivil.

To repeat, in discussing the specifics of the Farmers Branch statute or the broader issue of 12-20 million illegal aliens in the U.S., the allegations of racism are irrelevant. That is not to say that racism isn't an important problem in our country. It merely means that flinging the mud of 'racist' at anyone with whom one disagrees is an ad hominem - fallacious reasoning. To persist is not just fallacious, it's intellectual dishonesty.

One could emulate this tactic in another arena. One could claim (and get a lot of agreement) that the fact that blacks and other races are so grossly over-represented in our prison system that it's clear that their imprisonment is a result of racism. One could then cast aside the question of trials (matters of law) and questions of fact and engage in an outcry that prisoners should be released (granted amnesty). Or - perhaps more specifically - one could call for the release (amnesty) of just minority prisoners ... all in the name of "fighting racism."

Sorry. It just doesn't wash. Just because others may stop speaking out in response to such smears don't mean the shit-flingers are 'winning' the argument. It just means that discussion is fruitless when fallacious reasoning is so pervasive.

[crispini]

182. But it does smell of racism, Tahiti Nut.

I think that you agree with me that this ordinance is not going to do anything to solve the problem. Add that to the mix, this flyer that was distributed by the chief advocate of the ordinance, city council candidate Tim Scott, about not wanting a Carnival in their area:

A widely distributed e-mail by City Council candidate Tim Scott encourages residents to call the company to say they want a Minyard, not a Carnival. That has prompted others to distribute fliers or go door-to-door with the same message. Mr. Scott said that he doesn't recall who told him about the store's possible arrival but that he heard it from a couple of people.

The movement to keep Carnival out has angered some residents, who say the effort is racially motivated and an attempt to keep out a store that would be favored by Hispanics.

"I am so sick, my stomach is upset," said Elizabeth Villafranca, president of the Farmers Branch chapter of the League of United Latin American Citizens. "This is a person that is running for City Council, trying to control which businesses come in and out of the city based on his own prejudices. ... They are so prejudiced, but they don't want to face it."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/031607dnmetfbgrocery.2fbb6b7.html

Honestly, TN, if Farmers Branch had spent a little time thinking about projects that might REALLY work ... like targeting employers ... then I would have nowhere near the problem that I would with this. But to be perfectly honest, when I think about the fact that this is not going to DO anything real (they'll just all move over to the next city) and add to that the context of WHO is sponsoring this ordinance, and also in conjunction with his city council run... this DOES strike me as racist. As a cheap political pandering racist ploy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

201. I agree; it is a racial ploy

Check out this quote:

Scott said that at issue is the quality of store he wants for the Four Corners shopping center – not race.

[TahitiNut]

217. Well, I'd probably lobby for a Yaohan Supermarket.

I'd lobby against a Wal*Mart and a Carnival ... because I don't shop there - one because of politics and labor support and the other because I'm not fond of the products. (Other than the occasional crunchy taco from Taco Bell, I'm not fond of what passes for "Mexican food" in the U.S. I'd prefer the southern and southeastern varieties of Mexican cuisine but we just don't get that in most of the U.S.)

I guess that some here would "play the race card" because of that, but that neither makes it accurate nor logical.

[EFerrari]

211. Sorry, Tahiti Nut. When someone asks for your documents

before you rent an apartment, I'll reconsider my position.

And your argument about the two tiered "justice" system is absurd. Police contact, arrests, trials all happen in the context of a racist society. That you can be so cavalier about the needless victimization of other people is sort of unnerving.

That you can dismiss as "irrelevant" bigotry on steroids that will now be profiling colored people in that town is, I believe, a pristine illustration of a fundamental logical error -- not bringing all of your experience to bear on the question at hand. Let alone the great big blinders oone would have to wear in order not to see that undocumented workers are being both exploited AND demonized.

[TahitiNut]

216. You make lots of assertions and personal snark without offering a logical argument.

A rental manager might be just as likely to ask for proof of legal residency of a Pole speaking halting English with a heavy accent. Do people ABUSE others in complying with such laws? Of course. "DWB." "DWO." Does that mean the laws are automatically 'racist'? Nope. That's a logically-flawed (fallacious) stance.

Lastly, you say I'm being "cavalier about the needless victimization of other people." That's despicable and insulting ... a smear. It's the kind of personal smear that's all too common in these discussions and betrays a kind bias that's nearly as bad as racism, imho.

[EFerrari]

234. Texas is not experiencing an influx of undocumented Polish workers

is it? The aim of this law is to target Latinos. That's racism. And it will result in the needless victimization of powerless people, documented and undocumented because citizens usually get caught up in these hate fests.

And I do not retract my characterization of your attitude. And, in addition, I notice that you confuse advocacy with bias.

/grammar

[sanskritwarrior]

94. WOW

I had no idea you were so omnipotent as to be able to tell the rest of us what things mean.......
:eyes:
I'm half brown and don't take the word illegal to mean me or my mothers family who LEGALLY IMMIGRATED here from India........

[Odin2005]

117. If you think it is code you need to take off your tin-foil hat.

Do you seriously think most blue collar Americans are racist? :eyes:

This has to do with economics, not race.

[spoony]

191. "illegals" is a code word for cheap labour stacked like sardines in a flat.

[Atman]

226. What part of "illegal" don't you understand?

Brown, yellow, purple, orange, black...the color is not the operative, ILLEGAL is. If you can't see that, then the conversation never should have started.

.

[madeline_con]

16. I think the implication was....

ANY people of color who may be considered "undesirable" may soon be banned from the neighborhood.

It's only natural to choose another group from the list of those who've been persecuted relentlessly to be "the next in line", and make a comment.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn the neighborhood is "upscale" (another word for one in which busybodies decide what colors you'll be allowed to paint your house, among other rules) and that the shunned may still be allowed to come in until sundown to work as domestics and gardeners.

[LanternWaste]

179. Farmers Branch is a very upscale, predominantly white neighborhood

Farmers Branch is a very upscale, predominantly white neighborhood-- most minority residents live in a number of low-end apartment units.

From where I sit (15 minutes from FB), this weekend's vote was nothing more than a bunch of DINK families saying "Non-white skin in this neighborhood lowers my property values..."

[proud2BlibKansan]

203. This article says it is 40% Hispanic

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/031607dnmetfbgrocery.2fbb6b7.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Slaves broke the law when they escaped

Just sayin . . .

[SayWhatYo]

97. and those slavery laws were wrong...

are you saying that having immigration laws that require immigrants to legally enter the US are wrong?

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. When it is impossible to LEGALLY enter the US, then yes,

those laws are wrong.

Study the current immigration laws. I have. They are eye-opening.

[spoony]

195. But they didn't escape into the waiting chains of a meat packing plant

did they now?

[proud2BlibKansan]

204. Ever been in a meat packing plant?

[spoony]

206. Yes and, so, apparently, have many many illegal immigrants.

But thank goodness they escaped the slavery of Mexican poverty for the...slavery of overcrowded apartments and draconian factory work, eh?

[Laughing Mirror]

50. What's US economy's future? Ask illegal immigrants

By Faye Bowers, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor Wed May 2, 4:00 AM ET

PHOENIX - Fewer people are trying to sneak across the US-Mexico border. As a result, US border officials are nabbing fewer illegal immigrants – 30 percent fewer for the first quarter of this year compared with the same period a year ago. That's a triumph, says US Customs and Border Protection, of new sophisticated detection equipment as well as 6,000 National Guard troops situated along the 2,000-mile border with Mexico.
ADVERTISEMENT

But enhanced security may explain only part of the decline. A slowing US economy, resulting in fewer jobs, is discouraging immigrants from slipping into the United States, according to economists at Arizona State University in Tempe. In fact, falling border apprehensions may be an early predictor of where the economy is headed.
...
The connection is straightforward: New illegal immigrants hold some of the economy's most marginal jobs, which are some of the first to be left unfilled when a slowdown looks imminent. When jobs are scarce, word quickly gets out to would-be immigrants.

"Because it is difficult and dangerous to cross the border, they're not going to come unless they have a job lined up," McLaren says. "If they get a call from someone saying it's a good time to come, they do. If the caller says wait for the times to get better, they do that."

...
Since the end of 2005, however, apprehensions have fallen again. By April of last year, the trend was firmly established and indicated to her that the economy would slow down this year. Indeed, the Department of Commerce reported on Friday that the economy grew only 1.3 percent for the first quarter of this year, the worst performance in four years. One key reason: a slump in the housing market, which is the biggest employer for foreign-born Hispanic workers, according to the Pew Hispanic Center in Washington.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070502/ts_csm/aslowdown_1

That big house vacated by the legal white family will run less of a risk of being converted into a rooming house full of illegal workers from south of the border, if this housing market economy keeps them from coming into the country to build all those houses.

[sadiesworld]

8. Wow, that's pretty offensive...

even coming from a committed cheap labor cheerleader such as yourself.

[qdemn7]

10. Good!

More power to the people of Farmers Branch! :toast:

[crispini]

42. Yuck.

Proof of citizenship to rent an apartment? That's WAY too close to "Papers please!" for me. What's next? You have to show proof of citizenship to buy food at the grocery store? How about official Farmers Branch roadblocks on each road into the city where people have to show their passport and state their business for entering the city?

CITIZENS! We must submit to the control of the state for the better good of all!

And I would bet you a nickel that tonight, citizens in Farmers Branch will go out to eat in restaurants that employ illegal immigrants in their kitchens (and pay them terribly) and they will go to sleep in houses which were built by illegal immigrants (for low wages). It's the dirty little secret of this area in general-- cost of living is low because LOTS of businesses employ illegal immigrants. Oh, but FB doesn't seem to MIND that ... just so long as they sleep somewhere else. Outside the city limits.

Welcome to Fascist Farmers Branch.

[alarimer]

46. It will be selectively applied to ONLY people of Hispanic appearance

Because most of the anti-illegal argument is racist at its very core. These assholes in Farmers Branch need to mow their own fucking lawns and work in the damn restaurants. See how long that lasts.

[Odin2005]

119. Prove it.

Prove these laws against PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT LEGALLY SUPPOSED TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE are based on racism and not economics. PROVE IT!

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. Study up on immigration law

and get back to us.

Then you'll understand.

[Ilsa]

13. I hope all FB apartment management make it a policy to check

every renter applicant's legal status before leasing. That should slow down anyone getting an apartment and it might even raise the price of rent. Meanwhile, the apartments Watauga or White Settlement or whatever are advertising, "No papers? No problem!" The illegal immigrants will still be using the hospitals.

[gollygee]

14. Yeah this doesn't really solve any illegal immigration problems

it seems to just make sure the illegal immigrants aren't the neighbors of the people in this specific town. Which does sound more racially motivated to me than anything else. And I'm not for open borders so my opinion isn't based on that.

[mitchtv]

73. "you're good enough to work here-

But get outta town by dark"
And yes, there will be trouble when they start to ask Chicanos for proof

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. And their kids will still be getting an education

[Hangingon]

56. Last time I was down there...

two months ago Mexico had schools. Illegals tend not to pay taxes and put a burden on schools, hospitals and other social services. I would rather give Mexico financial aid for schools - but then the Mexican government would pprobably divert it to some other use.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. Undocumented workers pay taxes

They pay sales tax and many pay income taxes as well. They pay property taxes too. And property taxes pay for schools in this country. The only burden on schools is put there by state and local governments who refuse to adequately fund the schools.

[Hangingon]

209. Really...

Why do the concrete and carpentry guys who work construction, and the tree guys and the yards guys always want to be paid at the end of the day and then pay their guys in cash. Not all of them pay taxes by along shot. They are caught with thye sales tax but is it. Any body watching down here will see that. The worker guys are saving money to buy and older toyota or nissan pickup or two and take them home where they can be sold for a good profit. They don't like withholding. The employeers are guilty too but so are the workers. And the workers do not work for minimum wages.

[madeline_con]

15. Can they stil come into the neighborhood to work? n/t

[mitchtv]

75. yup

[mourningdove92]

17. I agree with this ordinance.

The illegal immigrants are breaking the law when they come over here without going through the legalization process. The key word here is ILLEGAL. This is not about race.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. I take it you aren't familiar with immigration laws?

It is nearly impossible to immigrate here legally from Central American countries.

Doesn't seem to be working, does it? :eyes:

[Hangingon]

57. Yeah. That is the point.

Prtetty hard to understand isn't. How do you think the people trying to enter legally feel about this. It just makes it harder.

[sanskritwarrior]

100. So that gives people the right

to commit crimes to get into this country........

What kind of whacked out bizarro world do you live in?

It is very hard to immigrate here legally, so no worries when people violate our laws to immigrate here illegally???

MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. They are poor and our trade policies have raped their economies

and just across the Rio Grande is the land of milk and honey. I would do anything, even if it was against the law, to support my family, especially if they were starving. Wouldn't you?

What's madness is people on a progressive discussion board, ignorant of the law. So ignorant they don't even use the correct vocabulary. Crossing the border without a visa is a civil offense. So these immigrants are no more illegal than you are when you drive 26 mph in a 25 mph zone.

[sanskritwarrior]

123. So basically you would

disregard all laws to get what you want? Welcome to the Jungle.........By your own logic you are no better than that dude in the White House who has broken numerous laws to get what he wants......

As for me I would not break the laws of another nation to feed my family, I would rather fix the problems in my own country before I went to another country and asked them to take care of me. If that meant I had to engage in armed struggle to overthrow my corrupt govt. to feed my family, so be it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. Good luck with that plan then!

I have been actively protesting against the invasion of Iraq for several years now. I have signed petitions, traveled all over the country, lobbied Congress and done my best to overthrow my corrupt govt.

Guess what? Our military is still in Iraq.

[sanskritwarrior]

132. I know I'm in that military.........

Due back in Iraq at the end of the year.........

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. And there is a growing number of us

who are working our butts off to try to prevent that from happening.

[crispini]

142. "Asked them to take care of me?"

:rofl:

These folks come over here, clean toilets and mow lawns and wash dishes for shit money, and you see it that our country is "taking care of them?" :rofl:

Our rapacious employers are TAKING ADVANTAGE of them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. Good call!

[JANdad]

103. HELLOOOOOOO

There is really NO LEGAL WAY FOR THEM TO COME HERE (Mexico anyway)

Please check your facts...

Natives of the following countries were not eligible to participate in DV-2007: Canada, China (mainland-born, excluding Hong Kong S.A.R., and Taiwan), Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, the Philippines, Poland, Russia, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. Comparing black people with criminals is foolish.

You may think this is a bad law, but there is no possible comparison between discriminating against people because they break the law and discriminating against people on grounds of race.

[Robson]

20. Agreed - that title offends every black citizen

Enforcing the law against illegal immigrants has nothing to do with black citizens, and any comparison should outrage blacks. Immigration law should be enforced against all illegal immigrants of any color, and if the feds can't or won't do it, then the states or cities need to act as it costs their citizens higher taxes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Yes black people were brought here against their will!

So I guess if we went south of the border and kidnapped Mexicans to work in our meat processing plants, THEN it would be okay to compare them?

Oh, wait, we do go south of the border and bring Mexicans here!

Never mind.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. I don't think you have a train of thought there.

"Yes black people were brought here against their will!"

Almost none of the black people resident in the US were brought there against their will - most were born there, some deliberately immigrated.

"So I guess if we went south of the border and kidnapped Mexicans to work in our meat processing plants, THEN it would be okay to compare them?"

Not really. Comparing "Black people" - a racial grouping - to "Mexicans kidnapped to work in American food processing plants" - a grouping united by nationality and by being victims of a specific crime - wouldn't really work

"Oh, wait, we do go south of the border and bring Mexicans here!"

Mexicans certainly travel to America to work. It would not surprise me if there were American firms actively recruiting Mexicans. The number of cases of Mexicans being brought to America against their will to work is negligable.

What point were you trying to make? That Mexican immigration to America is comparable to the slave trade? That strikes me as unlikely.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. So you are denying that African Americans in the US today are descendents

of slaves brought here against their will? Do you honestly believe they would CHOOSE to come here if they could? If so, then how do you explain that they refer to themselves as "AFRICAN" Americans?

Mexicans are brought here every day by US corporations trying to import cheap labor. Sorry you don't seem to understand this.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

104. I am? That's news to me. Where am I doing so?

I am denying that there are significant numbers of African Americans, or any other group, present in the US against their will. Clearly, in the past many Africans were brought to America against their will.

When you say "Mexicans are brought here", what do you mean? Do you mean that they are brought against their will? If so, can you provide any evidence of that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. Yes, that's what I mean

"in the past many Africans were brought to America against their will"

Hispanics from Central America are lured here and even brought here on buses by employers looking for cheap labor. Not all of them walk across the border of their own free will. And even those who do are lured by the promise of employment. It may not be strictly against their will, but it is dishonest and promises are made that are not kept.

[Hangingon]

59. I don't see anyone kidnapping Mexicans to work here...

I am sure that there are a lot of illegals working in meat packing plants. The came of their own accord. If they are being "kidnapped" it is by their own government. The government that prints and issues comics on how to illegally enter the US. Mexico is gaining tremendously from illegal immigration and they are doing nothing for their own people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

175. Mexico can't afford to take care of their people

and US corporations are luring immigrants here. They even provide transportation across the border and housing when they get here.

And BTW, not ALL Hispanic immigrants come from Mexico. Maybe you didn't know that. :eyes:

[treestar]

61. Criminals is not the right word for people who are merely illegal aliens

It is only a civil violation.

The comment was directed at the racism, and you have deliberately twisted it around - there was clearly no such intent in the original comment.

This is racism against hispanics. They are not doing anyone that much harm by being here illegally. They can be deported by the federal immigration authorities. If they aren't it's because they don't have enough resources to enforce the thousands of pages of laws already on the books, or because they are winking at it on behalf of corporations' need for cheap labor that can't unionize or make any demands due to the fact that if they did, their illegality would suddenly be anathema to said corporations, who have them under threat of deportation.

Other than that, they don't really harm anyone, even if they harm the job market, the harm is too indirect and illusory to be a good motive for these people who are forever trying to punish them, leaving racism as the only obvious motive.

[donco6]

21. How does one check immigration status?

Any thoughts? Show a green card? Easy to get one made up, happens all the time. So do you have to make sure it's not fake, too? How can I tell? What if it *is* fake and the landlord "should have know it was fake"? How should he have known? Is there going to be a department set up to determine the accuracy of IDs?

Then there are Social Security cards. You can check Social Security numbers, but all they'll tell you (and as an employer, I know), is that the number is legitimate and the name matches the number. Again, pretty easy to fake that. How can I tell if it's legit or not? Go "with my gut"? Do I risk renting to someone if I "think" they're illegal? Because they speak Spanish?

I suppose we could fingerprint anyone that applies. Is that the answer? But who do you send it to? The police only know people who have been fingerprinted in the past. An illegal could very easily not show up there. Does INS accept requests for fingerprint checks? How much are they? How long does it take?

Just want to be ready when this spreads to my state.

[NNN0LHI]

24. I am very curious about what happens to their children who are legal?

Are they not allowed a roof over their head either?

I get the impression that some would like to see a lot of homeless children living in the streets so they can prove a point.

Don

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. My school district has a program for homeless kids

Sounds like they are going to need one in this town.

[Hangingon]

62. Is the problem caused by illegals?

[donco6]

87. No, just racists. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. What problem?

[donco6]

88. Doesn't seem to bother them at all.

Most of these whackos deny their legitimate citizenship anyway. Constitution be damned, I guess.

[JANdad]

105. Thank You...Exactly

I recently left the Dallas/Fort Worth area after 5 miserable years and I can tell you that it seems that there are an awful lot of Greg Knapp supporters on this thread. I guess the minutemen have infiltrated this thread tonight...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

161. They want to repeal part of the 14th amendment about citizenship granted to those born here.

They want to send American citizen kids back with the illegal parents.

Won't work.

[suffragette]

53. Apartment managers as quasi INS agents

without training, without guidance, without accountability.

As you point out, what will they do? How would this be implemented?

There have been so many attempts to force teachers, health care and social service workers to act as INS agents. Now apartment managers? Prop 187, which was found to be unconstitutional, was a prominent attempt at doing just that.

And the words of an ACLU director about Prop 187 being struck down seem to fit here as well. From http://www.aclu-sc.org/News/Releases/1998/100086/ :

"Mark Rosenbaum, Legal Director of the ACLU of Southern California, which filed suit against the measure in November 1994, hailed the ruling."The decision makes clear that immigration policy remains the province of the federal government, not a matter for individual states to attempt to formulate their own rules and procedures. School teachers and doctors are not substitutes for INS agents."

[Hangingon]

63. Had a good friend who took a parttime job with the census...

he was given an area of Dallas around Central and Park Lane. The stories were amazing. No english spoken. Multiple families in a single family apartment. Apartments trashed. I understand why FB passed the ordinance.

[rene moon]

65. Yeah because only Mexicans trash apartments

sheesh

[Hangingon]

68. No. Overcrowding trashes apartments.

Wrecked cars and parking lot car rebuilds trash apartments. Drugs trash apartments. Don't assume the rest of us are racist because you are.

[donco6]

83. Yep, gotta keep the trash out. Right? n/t

[suffragette]

158. What an odd response to my post

I write about how non-INS agents should not be forced to do INS work and how attempts to force citizens to do that have been ruled unconstitutional.
You respond with, well, I'm not sure what exactly:
Strawman?
Stories?
Claptrap?

[donco6]

171. Hmmm . . .

[donco6]

89. And yet, they keep trying.

It's like a forcible draft into the Stasi.

[suffragette]

159. That's just what it is.

Force citizens to become a part of the machinery and keep them busy being suspicious of each other as well as turning any resentment at having to do this toward ordinary people.
Keep the distrust and the hate and the separation going, going, going.

I am so tired of the hate and fear.

That's not what we need. We need hope and compassion.

[suffragette]

180. Just realized I missed the most obvious response to your post.

That draft would make them Quasi-Stasi.

And it seems many, even here, would be ok with forcing people into that role.

Hmm, and what other areas should we make apartment managers enforce?

I would imagine that many of the managers aren't ok with this.
And the ones who are, well - that makes me shudder.


:hug: to you, donco6 for your great points on this thread.

[Hangingon]

60. Ferderal employment requires proof of citizenship...

goes back before Bush. Birth certificate, naturalization papers are sufficient.

[donco6]

84. What's that have to do with anything? n/t

[Hangingon]

101. It has to do with the question listed above

How do you determine citizenship. The Feds do it. Employers are supposed do it. The process is not difficult. And it doesn't make you a racist. Sorry that name calling is the only lame reply you can come up with. It really is the last resort of the intellectually bankrupt. In my opinion,iIllegals are one thing. Mexican americans art not the same. I grew up with Mexican Americans. Went to school with Mexican Americans and count them as some of my best friends. I have no animosity for hispanics. And I admire the work ethic of many migrants. They work, many grow businesses and, if they had enter legally, would be valuable citizens.

[donco6]

108. Of course you don't.

I'd bet you even have some gays who are your best friends.

But back to the question at hand - I don't have access to federal resources. How do I get that?

[Hangingon]

109. Sorry Donco - I'll type real slowly so you can get it

I have no idea why you would need access to federal data - I'm pretty sure they would not release it. You ask the applicant - white, black, brown, red, yellow or green - for proof of citizenship. It can be his/her birth certificate, passport or other document that shows his citizenship.

I do have gay friends - both male and female. I live in an area with a large vietnamese population - some of them are friends. I even have some friends who are black. I don't know any native americans but I wouldn't mind knowing some. Years ago, I did some work with BIA and met several nice people. I have friends in the democratic, republican,and libertarian parties and some who are independent - a couple are so independent they don't often vote. Most of these people have their own views. We don't agree but we learn by talking. And none of them has called me a racist - but then they are mostly articulate and not given to polemics.

[donco6]

170. And go back to my first post and read it REAL slowly.

Because you're talking in circles now.

[Hangingon]

176. Try real hard to follow...

I can see you have great difficulty. Thread 21 you asked how to determine immigration status. I responded that citizenship was done in federal hiring and offered some ways. Your response devolved into name calling. I hope this will help you catch up because I have wasted enough time on explaining things to you andd am tired of dealing with a closed mind.

[donco6]

177. Not difficult at all, really. Here were my questions:

How does one check immigration status?

Any thoughts? Show a green card? Easy to get one made up, happens all the time. So do you have to make sure it's not fake, too? How can I tell? What if it *is* fake and the landlord "should have know it was fake"? How should he have known? Is there going to be a department set up to determine the accuracy of IDs?

Then there are Social Security cards. You can check Social Security numbers, but all they'll tell you (and as an employer, I know), is that the number is legitimate and the name matches the number. Again, pretty easy to fake that. How can I tell if it's legit or not? Go "with my gut"? Do I risk renting to someone if I "think" they're illegal? Because they speak Spanish?

I suppose we could fingerprint anyone that applies. Is that the answer? But who do you send it to? The police only know people who have been fingerprinted in the past. An illegal could very easily not show up there. Does INS accept requests for fingerprint checks? How much are they? How long does it take?

And then you said that the feds check it all the time. So I asked how I can get access to the federal database where they can verify immigration status. Because I don't have that access now. How do I do it? Does it cost money? Is there a fee?

I'm just looking for some answers, and you just can't seem to provide any.

[Hangingon]

210. And I said...

I have no idea why you would need access to federal data - I'm pretty sure they would not release it. You ask the applicant - white, black, brown, red, yellow or green - for proof of citizenship. It can be his/her birth certificate, passport or other document that shows his citizenship.

There is nothing more I have to add. Apparntly I did not realize the hiring process is horribly complex. I am sorry this is so difficult for you to grasp.

[donco6]

214. Well, that's interesting, because we already do that.

Obviously, you've never hired anyone.

The problem is that people will lie. It's human nature. And so when I ask if they are citizens - naturalized or otherwise - they will mark yes. And if that's my sole responsibility as an employer, that's cool. But it isn't. Next we have to check Social Security and make sure the number they've given is valid - and that's all I can find out from them. They don't tell me if the person is really who they claim to be. All they tell me is that, yes, the number is valid and yes, that's the name is associated with.

So, you come onboard and crow about a law requiring people (in this case landlords, but a small step to employers such as myself) to ensure that they are not renting to illegal aliens. And I ask some pertinent questions about how I'm supposed to determine whether someone is an illegal alien (besides just asking them - see paragraph A above). Then you
tell me that there is some kind of federal database where I can check to see whether this person in front of me is really who he says he is. And naturally, I want to know how to access this database. Logical question, really. At least, for someone of normal intelligence.

[Hangingon]

221. I spent 35 years as a supervisor or above

with hiring and firing responsibility. I understand that people lie.

I never told you there was a federal database accessible to you. You hallucinated this. I said only that in the Federal hiring system, selecting officials are required to ask for proof of citizenship. Pretty simply for a person of normal intelligence to grasp that. I never claimed could tell you how to spot a fake social security card, a fake green card, a counterfeit $20 bill, a bad pay check someone created on a computer or a fake UFO. I only said that you could ask for a birth certificate or naturalization certificate as proof of citizenship. If it is a fake, you made a good faith effort.

If you know anyone with "normal intelligence", get them to help you understand this. It is pretty much 5th grade reading level stuff so it is simple. You might be able to puzzle it out if you could put aside you prejudices and you terrible need to tell others that you know so much more than they do or introduce imaginary facts in your arguments.

At any rate I am quite tired of you so this is my last attempt to communicate on this matter. There is obviously nothing I can say that will result in an "answer" acceptable to you. I am embarrassed That I have let myself waste this much time dealing with a closed mind.

[donco6]

222. And as usual, you answered nothing.

You're probably used to getting away without someone calling you on your shit. Too bad it didn't work this time.

[RB TexLa]

23. At least many businesses large and small have said they are leaving FB

there are more than a few office buildings on the tollway that are in FB and have said they will start working to be annexed by Dallas. Hopefully Farmers Branch's tax base can erode to nothing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. That would be well-deserved, IMO

[Mountainman]

35. This kind of law was passed before in other cities and thrown out.

I wish those with the view that we should just force the illegal population back to Mexico would put some thought behind that idea.

Do you really think 12 million people will go quietly into the night and disappear if you enforce current law?

Do you want to force families to be split up or force US citizens (children of illegals born here) to live in Mexico?

Do you have no compassion for the plight of these people?

[crispini]

36. No, they don't.

They are operating out of a knee jerk level of stupidity that says "What's mine is mine, and this is MY country, and I'm going to kick those illegal people who are using my "resources" that I pay for as a taxpayer, OUT!"

When all the time, 'those illegal people' are washing their dishes, and building their houses, and cleaning their homes, and reducing the cost of living in North Texas. Supply and demand, baby! But these anti-immigration people have NO LOGIC at all, let alone compassion.

[earth mom]

70. That's B.S. Just because someone is against ILLEGAL immigration

doesn't mean they lack compassion or are against LEGAL immigration.

What about having compassion for the LEGAL working poor of this country be they black, brown, white or purple?! Those people have been screwed over big time by an influx of cheap workers that will work for less than they can afford to in order to pay the bills and put food on the table! Excuse me, but where are the pro illegal immigration peoples compassion for those people, hmm? Could you live on less and less and less and less as time goes on?! Hell NO! And neither can the LEGAL working poor!

Until people start caring about the plight of the people who are already here legally, this country will continue it's downward spiral. Hello 3rd world USA! :grr:

[crispini]

110. I happen to agree with you,

but I also happen to think that things like the Farmers Branch ordinance are simply a "blame the victim" mentality. So, instead of looking at the roots of the problem, i.e. the vast disparity between Mexico and US, and the lax enforcement of these laws that allow people to get away with hiring illegal immigrants, let's just pass a feel-good slap-each-other on the back ordinance that isn't going to do anything to fix the problem but allows us to get those brown people out of our backyard. Yes, that'll help. NOT.

[alarimer]

48. The country would collapse if that happened

And yuppies would be whining about how "good help is so hard to find now." No one to mow their lawns or pick up after their brats.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. "Jaime" Crow Laws? Welcome to 'Murka circa 1956.

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. What about the children of illegal immigrants who are CITIZENS if they were born here?

This advocates leaving U.S. CITIZENS out on the street. Niiice.:eyes: WTG, Farmer's Branch.:eyes:

on edit:

Also, what law has Farmer's Branch, Texas passed to stop CORPORATIONS and FARMERS from hiring illegal immigrants? Is hiring an illegal immigrant against the law in Farmer's Branch, Texas?

[RB TexLa]

52. You're title is spot on, this thing as been racist from the beginning

The debate on KRLD the other day really showed it. The member of the city council talked about why the ordnance was needed, he stated the number of stores in FB that cater to the hispanic community are lowering property tax values. Pointed out that when someone is looking to buy a house if they drive by a store with Spanish writing and advertisements on it with "hispanic products," they know that isn't were they want to live. Just substitute advertisements for afrosheen and you have what this is all about. The original ordnance had or was accompanied by an ordnance that would forbid any job with the city requiring an applicant to speak Spanish. So if all the 911 operators were English only, tough shit if a spanish speaking person has an emergency in FB.

[watercolors]

54. I am very happy it passed!

I hope many more cities act on it also.

[crispini]

64. Charming.

And with your sig, too. :eyes:

[donco6]

85. Great.

:eyes:

[treestar]

58. It says that now landlords have to help enforce the immigration laws

Along with cops, employers, states, counties, etc.

When the Constitution makes it solely the Federal Government's problem.

It also means proving your citizenship in order to rent now, not just to work, and the inevitable need for a "national ID" to make it all "convenient."

I truly don't get these people - most of them could not point to one single thing that the presence of illegal aliens has hurt them this much. They are deportable - why isn't that enough?

[mitchtv]

79. It also means proving your citizenship in order to rent now>>>

My guess? Only if you ar a Latino

[Madspirit]

67. As a Texan

I find this extremely offensive. I have many illegal friends and I have and will continue to protect them however I can.

Lee

[Madspirit]

69. My Illegal Friends

I have a lot of illegal friends here in Texas and I will help them stay, regardless of what I have to do. This law is racist and I rather break bread with any illegal I know over ANYONE who thinks this is a fair or just law. We STOLE this land from them. They have more right to be here than we do. Also:

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archiv...

Texas has now joined Hawaii, New Mexico and California as a majority-minority state, along with the District of Columbia, the U.S. Census Bureau reported today. According to July 1, 2004, population estimates, Texas had a minority population of 11.3 million, comprising 50.2 percent of its total population of 22.5 million.


So, anytime a Hispanic person wants to buy/rent a place to live, they are now going to have to prove they are really 'Markins. This is disgusting and racist and sick.

Lee

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. If you were a "good 'Merkin" you would turn your friends in.

"They first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up- because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up- because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up- because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up- because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me- and by that time no one was left to speak up." Pastor Martin Niemoeller

[Madspirit]

77. One of my fave quotes....thanks...n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. There, unfortunately, seem to be some folks here who would disagree with it.

After all, the Jews were "breaking" the Nuremberg Laws which justified their deportation.

[donco6]

86. Quite a few, it seems.

And they're all ugly where it counts.

[mitchtv]

80. Good , now that that problem is solved

They can continue the process of persecuting Gays in Texas

[BoneDaddy]

82. Anti Black people?

Illegal immigration is a problem for many reasons. I tend to lean towards a more equitable way for people to gain citizenship and certainly understand their need for work and a better life but to push for total open borders and the problems that come with it is extremely shortsighted.

Then to link this to the struggle of slavery where people did not have a choice is ridiculous and an affront to black people.

I would suggest that you limit linking the two as they are very very differnt situations.

[EFerrari]

92. Racism from hell. An otherwise perfectly good Democratic governor

of NC ( EASLEY) replied to a racist yesterday on WJ -- they were talking about reforming education and the gov was very committed, had great ideas, he is obviously a "good guy".

But the first thing out of his mouth when a caller railed about "them" (Latinos) was "Well, they're not all illegal."

:wow:

:wtf:

I better make a lot of money so I can protect my nieces from these racist fucks.

[Stinky The Clown]

93. This is disgusting. Just fucking disgusting

Fucking Farmers Branch Texas Bigots

[sanskritwarrior]

95. Yes

how dare we Texans enforce a law we passed in a democratic fashion.......how dare we carry out the will of the people......The Horror that is people in a small Texas town voting to enact a law they support..............

:eyes:

[RB TexLa]

96. So in 1958 you would have just said the will of the people should be honored?

No child compelled to attend schools that are racially mixed. No desegregation unless approved by election. Governor may close schools where troops used on federal authority.


http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/scripts/jimcrow/insidesouth.cgi?state=Texas

[sanskritwarrior]

99. Please tell me you aren't

trying to equate the civil rights struggle with criminals in this country illegally.......I might die from laughing at such absurd comparisons

[Madspirit]

120. You Should Be Ashamed

How can you NOT compare it to the civil rights movement? Are you going to look me in the eyes and tell me they are going to make Anglos prove their country of origin? No, it's just going to be Persons of Color who are required to PROVE they are citizens. That IS racism. ...and that IS ridiculous and SHAMEFUL.
Lee

[sanskritwarrior]

121. Sorry

I'm not ashamed, I'm a proud person of color (half color anyway) and I applaud the people of Farmers Branch taking a step towards punishing criminals. If they went after businesses that hired illegals then this would be perfect.

Half a solution is better than no solution and the sooner we tackle the illegal immigration problem the better.

[Madspirit]

125. So They Are

So they will be asking Anglos to prove their country of origin?
Lee

[sanskritwarrior]

130. How many Anglos

might not be US citizens? How many Hispanics might not be?

Being a Texan you should know the answer or at least know one side is more likely to be illegal than the other side........

Again the people in this one town passed this on their own, I see no problem with Democracy in Action.

[Madspirit]

135. ...and not very astute..

I quoted government statistic from the last census upthread. 51% of Texans...LEGAL TEXANS...are not Anglo. We are one of the few minority/majority states. So, I guess it should JUST be Anglos they pick out to subject to this. ...by your logic.
Lee

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. So do you approve of cops racially profiling also

cause we know that most crimes are committed by black people, right? I mean, since so many black people are in prison, it only makes sense to racially profile!

:sarcasm:

[Telly Savalas]

154. So you're advocating racial profiling.

[sanskritwarrior]

164. Not at all

I'm advocating profiling illegals

If a majority of illegals are of Hispanic descent that's not my problem. Would you argue that a majority of illegals are not hispanic?

WOW I'm quite the popular one tonight. It's interesting all the twisted pretzel logic being used tonight to defend people that have broken America's laws........Bush breaks our laws all the time and we call for his head as we should. Millions of people of every color break our laws..............................and we defend their right to do so.........Hypocrisy is a mild word.......... :)

Cheers folks, I'm done for the night, I need to get up early to train for my deployment.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

183. You're saying latinos are more likely to be criminals.

You're saying that the latino walking down the street is more likely to be a criminal than the white guy walking down the street, and the latino should be treated differently by law enforcement than the white guy.

There's a word for that sort of sentiment, you know.

[donco6]

174. So we should check all Hispanics . . . ?

That would be racial profiling.

[Forkboy]

229. And your post would appear to be Bigotry In Action.

[sanskritwarrior]

124. Just let me get this straight for myself and other DUers

You are saying that the plight of people that broke several laws to enter this country illegally is in the same vein as the civil rights struggle of the 1960's...........

I would like a yes or no answer please.

[Madspirit]

128. Yes...without a doubt...n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

133. Well at least you are consistently delusional

It is laughable and extremely sad that someone would compare criminals who are not US citizens to the heroes of the Civil Rights movement.

Civil Rights movement: I have a dream........

Your point of view: This is their land anyway.........

Yeah they are remarkably similar........:eyes:

Let's just agree to disagree this is getting out of hand......

[Madspirit]

137. You are the worst

The civil rights workers actually compare them. Go to the NAACP site or The Southern Poverty Law Center or Google "Coretta Scott King"....etc. Yes, THEY consider it the SAME struggle. Guess you are not The Decider.
Lee

[EFerrari]

151. I'll answer that. Yes, exactly the same.

I hope that was clear.

[proud2BlibKansan]

153. Yes it's the same

Is that a straight enough answer for you?

[sanskritwarrior]

162. Well at least you guys are self identifying

so I know not to value your opinions.

Illegal immigrants are not in the same league as the heroes of the civil rights movement. Saying they are demonstrates a loose connection to what reality is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

172. You know not to value our opinions?

Let me get this straight. Because we disagree with you on this issue, you have decided not to value our opinions?

Why are you here? How about a straight answer? :)

[sanskritwarrior]

184. Yes it's called free will

As for why I am here 2 reasons

1. To correct the misperceptions Democrats have towards the military, people in the military and the way we are trained

2. To help get democrats elected in whatever small way I can contribute

Why are you here if you are all for standing aside while millions of people break our laws????

What if our nominee in 2008 is for laws that curtail all illegal immigration and increase penalties for those caught???

[proud2BlibKansan]

196. I find it sad that you still don't understand

what we have been trying to explain. There is no legal way for Central Americans to come here. So they come illegally. Until we change the immigration laws, we will continue to be inundated with these refugees. They are refugees because our trade policies have destroyed the economies in their countries.

And I will call these laws racist because white skinned folks from Europe can come here legally while Asians and Central Americans cannot.

Until laws are changed, we aren't going to curtail any 'illegal' immigration. (Since it is just a civil offense, it's not right to call these people or what they do 'illegal'.)

Since Democrats are progressive for the most part and since progressives support human rights issues, I would expect a Democratic candidate to support reforming our racist immigration laws. And I would expect that candidate to also support heavy penalties for employers who not only hire but actively recruit these workers from other countries.

[sanskritwarrior]

231. I don't care where they came from

or whether they can come here or not. They are breaking our laws.......that is enough. Criminals are criminals, jaywalking is not murder but it should not be ignored.

I don't care if they are Irish, Pakistani, Mexican or Indian, if they are here illegally, if they are willfully breaking our laws, they are wrong. If a town decides to do something about that how dare you stop the people of one town from doing what they think is best for that town. If San Francisco can have illegal immigrant freedom zones, Farmers Branch can surely have this measure........Or do you not believe in people determining laws at the local level if you don't agree with it. So far this whole thread is a lot of whining that a town did something some of you don't like. Don't like it? Fine, boycott Farmer's Branch. But don't get pissed off when other towns do the same thing.

[EFerrari]

233. By the same logic, civil rights activists who broke Jim Crow laws

were criminals.

And yes, I don't like bigotry.

[proud2BlibKansan]

240. Have you never heard of civil disobedience?

Daniel Ellsberg has been arrested 75 times. He found it his patriotic duty to expose the lies about Vietnam by publishing the Pentagon Papers. He assumed he would go to prison for the rest of his life, yet he acted out of love for his country.

No I am not equating crossing the border without papers to civil disobedience, but you are the one who used the phrase "criminals are criminals". So would you call Daniel Ellsberg a criminal?

It's not nearly as black and white as you are making it out to be.

[Madspirit]

106. I'm a Texan

...and it's not MY fucking will. I hate our racist policies. Give me a break. This land was theirs long before we STOLE it.
Lee

[sanskritwarrior]

122. Cry me a frickin river

This land belongs to the US and as a proud Texan I want the laws passed by the people to be prosectued. In Farmer's Branch the will of the people was heard, in this case they want illegals dealt with. This isn't a Democrat or Republican issue, it's a legal issue. These people that are here illegally are breaking our laws, they should be punished. Companies that hire illegals are breaking the law they should be punished. This half solution is better than no solution.

[Madspirit]

127. Bullshit

You make me ashamed. So very ashamed. It's pathetic and racist and it's ONLY their illegal status that makes them illegal. You're setting up an Idiot's Quandary. Other than that, they are people looking for a new home but the problem is, we only make that easy for people NOT of color and NOT of poverty. Your politics are THE root of one of the main things wrong with this country.

...and your defense of the voters is ridiculous. If that stupid-assed racist little town voted slavery back in, that would be cool because hey...they voted? Well actually, this is not a Democracy. It's a Constitutional Republic...thus the pledge saying, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands...." A Democracy is a tool we use but we have certain Rights set aside in a document known as The Constitution that cannot be voted away by a Band of Bigots. A pure Democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. We are not that. We, ONCE AGAIN, are a Constitutional Republic.

...and as I'm still asking, so they will be forcing Anglos to prove their country of origin, too?
Lee

[sanskritwarrior]

131. Great I make you ashamed

I'll try hard not to lose sleep over this.

Let's be honest you favor lawbreakers as long as it is people but want law breaking companies punished.

I want both sides punished.

It is high comedy to watch you sputter and spurt and try to compare criminals to the heroes of the civil rights movement.......But rage on.....

[Madspirit]

134. You're Not Going To Answer?

Are they going to make Anglos prove their citizenship or is this just going to be people of color picked out for this? Easy question: ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE ANGLOS PROVE THEIR CITIZENSHIP TOO? A very simple question.
Lee

[sanskritwarrior]

136. I hope not

Now I will await the calls of racist................................

[Madspirit]

138. It would be an accurate "call"

I quoted government statistic from the last census upthread. 51% of Texans...LEGAL TEXANS...are not Anglo. We are one of the few minority/majority states. So, I guess it should JUST be Anglos they pick out to subject to this. ...by your logic.
Lee

[sanskritwarrior]

163. Fortunately you

are not the decider........LOL really squirming on that self imposed hook now aren't we. I'm talking lega/illegal you bring in race, how sad........

[tyedyeto]

178. Now that statement is definitely racist.

Madspirit (1000+ posts) Sun May-13-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. You're Not Going To Answer?
Are they going to make Anglos prove their citizenship or is this just going to be people of color picked out for this? Easy question: ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE ANGLOS PROVE THEIR CITIZENSHIP TOO? A very simple question.
Lee

sanskritwarrior (857 posts) Sun May-13-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. I hope not
Now I will await the calls of racist................................


So, you are saying whites should NOT have to prove their citizenship. If this town law stands up in court, there should be penalties for those landlords who do not comply for each and EVERY person who seeks to rent from them.

[sanskritwarrior]

232. Yawn

[Manifestor_of_Light]

140. They didn't tell us in Texas History we were fighting for Slavery either.

In Texas History, they didn't tell us we were fighting those "dirty Mexicans" for the right to be independent and own slaves.

The Spanish law with regard to women is far more fair and equal than the English law OR the French Law (Code Napoleon) which Louisiana Law is based on.

We have GOOD case law precedent stating that women have the right to own and buy or sell property in THEIR OWN NAMES going back to 1836. We have community property, where the wife is considered the equal of the husband. All the states that have community property are Western states, influenced by Spanish law and gave women more rights sooner than the Eastern states.

Bet some of you people have never lived in San Antonio, either. San Antonio has always been a white minority city. But they have the money and the power and they live on the North Side. I think it's about 20% Anglo.

If Mexico had a fair economy, the illegals would not come here. Mexico has rich and poor, and no middle class, which is exactly what we are headed for, if we are not there already. I believe the middle class has already been crushed here. From my experience it has been, if you're over 40.

[EFerrari]

150. So, I take it you'd help enforce the Fugitive Slave Act?

Tell you what: get your criminal government to keep their filthy hand off of elections in Mexico and people will stay home. That would mean, you'd need your own citizens to abide by your own law. :eyes:

[sanskritwarrior]

165. WOW

I want criminals off the streets and I get called a racist, I get some random rant about "my criminal govt" and mexican elections, and I get told I'm the worst........Interesting.

The best part is demonization of someone for wanting immigration laws enforced is not much different than demonizing people because they support the troops but not the war. But getting some of you zealots to see the similarity is impossible. I can see what issue is gonna rip us apart in 2008, it is going to be illegal immigration..........

[Madspirit]

186. Limited gray cells

You keep setting up this Idiot's Quandry...

"They are illegal therefore they are doing something illegal JUST BY BEING therefore they are criminals because they are illegals...etc." I don't even know how to explain the illogic of your argument. It's like you are saying that something is blue and someone asks you why it's blue and you say that it's blue because it is blue. The ONLY criminal thing about these folks is that they are illegal aliens because of the way they entered our country. THEY are not criminal. Ack...I give up ...an Idiot's Quandry...they are because they are because they are because they are because they are because they are. It really says NOTHING.

Do you know our policy with Cuba? Wet Foot/Dry Foot? The SECOND their foot touches dry beach they are immediately granted asylum and are legal. Too damned bad those silly Mexicans don't have to boat over. The Rio Grande barely trickles in places.

Their immigrant status does NOT make them criminals, by nature or ethics...only by technicality...which you seem to care much more about than compassion or decency or integrity or empathy or .... You're not someone I am proud to call a fellow Texan. You make me sick.
Lee

[EFerrari]

213. Yes, precisely. You might want to read my post again

if you ever hope to understand why people leave the homes they love and come to this place to be exploited like cattle.

Understanding is not zealotry. And yes, racism is an issue here.

[dogday]

228. I live in Texas and those criminals as you call them

are families.. Families who have settled here and are working. They are people.. Calling them criminals or illegals only tries to negate that fact that they are people....

[sanskritwarrior]

230. Then why do we call bush a criminal??

He broke some laws, but he's just trying to get ahead........ :eyes:

They entered this country illegally, they are criminals. You can spin and hem and haw all you want, but THEY ARE CRIMINALS, nothing can change that. The United States of America both democrats and republicans consider them criminals........But rage on children.

[crispini]

111. It's not a small Texas town, it's a freaking bedroom community of Dallas.

Which means their ordinance will have absolutely zippo effect -- it's just a total Not In My Backyard thing.

There are no real solutions happening with this law, just having the Mexicans out of town by sundown is good enough for these folks apparently.

[Madspirit]

139. Exactly Crispini!...n/t

[Justitia]

156. Yeah, as a Texan, formerly of Dallas, I just love reading the idiot responses of the clueless here.

Notice where the vociferous opinions are coming from.

I'm guessing some folks think Farmers Branch is a border town.

Yeah, it borders the freakin' Galleria. hahahahahaha

[JANdad]

102. Check out this link...

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1317.html

from the bottom of the page: "Natives of the following countries were not eligible to participate in DV-2007: Canada, China (mainland-born, excluding Hong Kong S.A.R., and Taiwan), Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, the Philippines, Poland, Russia, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam."

Seems that we can allow 1361 Iranian nationals to come here in the visa lottery but those evil "Mehicans" we do not want...

[jack24bauer]

168. Since when is the DV lottery the only way to immigrate?

173,000 Mexicans became resident aliens in 2006.

[JANdad]

169. There are only four ways

Which someone from any country may apply for a permanent resident status:

1. Large investment in a business venture

2. Marriage

3. Relative

4. Lottery

The point of my post was to rebut the argument I hear all the time: "they should come here legally".

So if you are a single Mexican national with no relatives in the US and have a family to support and you dream of coming to the US legally, you are screwed. So what would you do? Your children may starve or you could catch a ride a couple of hundred miles north for work so you can feed your children. I think it is time that we sand down the plaque at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty and rephrase the statement: You are only welcome if you have either $100K to invest in a business venture or have a relative or con someone into marrying you or if you ARE NOT from latin america and you are lucky enough to be one of only 50k people with internet access to participate in the lottery.

[SoCalDem]

112. What's next? the sound of rent dropping all over town

:)

[Selatius]

141. Not sure, but isn't it already illegal to rent apartments to illegal immigrants in the entire US???

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. No

but it sure wouldn't surprise me if they slipped that into the Patriot Act.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

157. I think equating the two is wrong.

[Maestro]

166. Scapegoating pure and simple

The idea that people support this because the law targets illegals is preposterous. It targets Latinos. I wonder how many European immigrants will be asked for papers? I wonder how many Ethiopians will be asked? This "law" will backfire and just because a majority of voters want it does not make it right or just.

[Madspirit]

185. EXACTLY!

That's what I said several times up-thread. (I'm a Texan.) They aren't going to be asking Anglos to prove their country of origin. This is just a craphole racist, asshole, xenophobic shameful policy to pick on Hispanics and other people of color and I hope it's declared unconstitutional or whatever...to stop it.
Lee

[and-justice-for-all]

167. I think it will be...

..two people of the same sex can not live together.

[BlooInBloo]

187. LOL! They're old - called "Sundown towns". Americans and their ignorance of history.

[EFerrari]

208. I didn't know about them until I watched a BookTv segment.

Remember, more recently, the denizens of the Ninth Ward were allowed to tour it by bus but had to leave by sundown? What's old is new again. :(

Anyway, this is the book that was presented in that BT segment:



http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6007803-2849646?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179170104&sr=1-1

[porphyrian]

188. Wait, if they're illegal immigrants, why do you need another law? To make them more illegal?

And why single out landlords? They aren't the ones hiring illegals, they're just giving them somewhere to live and putting their money back into the local economy.

[Sequoia]

193. "But I was born in the USA." "Prove it."

So I applied for another job okay. I have a double last name, one mine, one my SOs. The guy interviewing me asked me which was my maiden name because he always gets confused. I said the first part, he said "Well, I can never tell with Mexican names, they take their mother's and father's name." He thinks my husband and I are from Mexcio and neither one of us are or have any relatives from there. He wasn't even born in the USA and my family's been here since the 1700s and even have a castle in Scotland. I have to think of a clever way to get him to notice how racist he appears to be.

[TommyO]

197. the article says that landlords need to prove citizenship or immigration status

before renting - how will they do that? Is the town going to set up an infrastructure to allow landlords to verify a person's status?

What happens if somebody's status is reported incorrectly and that person is refused housing? What recourse do they have? I can't wait for the first lawsuit based on this, it's inevitable.

[donco6]

215. See posts 177 and 210.

Evidently, we're just supposed to ask. I guess that's good enough. :)

[TommyO]

239. And pity the poor landlord who asks and gets "proof"

that is wrong. Is he or she then liable for the fines?

[NorthernSpy]

198. please don't try to use the black experience to advance an unrelated cause...

It's not yours to make use of for your own ends. Especially not if those ends involve something that harms the material interests of blacks as a group, along with the interests of other working class Americans.

[Madspirit]

200. You're not The Decider

The civil rights movement considers it their cause...check out NAACP or The Southern Poverty Law Center of Amnesty International or just google "Coretta Scott King"... It is a racism issue. Give me a break.
Lee

[EFerrari]

207. If I was there and you were there, then it was OUR time.

No one is trying to appropriate the black experience. More to the point, that "experience" lives on and it needs to stop today for all people of color.

Geezus Joseph and Mary.

[nomatrix]

220. A town in Texas

not all of the state.

For those not familiar with the size of the U.S. this might seem like a big thing. There are millions of acres of land in the country that no one lives on. I wonder why there is such outrage?

[Atman]

225. Why would there ever be an anti-black ordinace? That makes no sense!

Unless, of course, they're in the country ILLEGALLY. Then the law should be 100% color blind.

.

[EFerrari]

238. Once upon a time, black people needed papers

to travel. And there were laws about where they could live, eat, drink water and relieve themselves.

At one point, it was a law of this land that black people could not be American citizens.

[Cleita]

227. People should listen to Rev. Niemoller.

When the Nazis took over Germany, the Reverend Niemoller was at first an avid supporter of the Nazis and Hitler. As disillusionment set it, he became less supportive and was eventually thrown into a concentration camp and freed by the allies at the end of WWII. This is his famous essay that he wrote about his experience:

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Social Democrats,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Social Democrat.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew,
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

Anyone who can't see that these laws are unjust, unethical and inhumane better look to the fact that when the time comes it could be them.