Serious question, where are the progressives *going*?

[Barack_America]

There has been a somewhat steady stream of self-identified progressives leaving DU, declaring the site to be hostile to progressives (rightly or wrongly).

Recently Keith Olbermann angrily left Kos, admonishing it for being similarly hostile to progressives.

That leads me to wonder where the progressives are going?

Are they regrouping elsewhere or just dropping out of politics altogether?

Whether you agree with the progressives or not, if you call yourself a Democrat this IS of concern to you. Not just for progressive votes, but for the long-standing history of progressives getting out the vote.

Can anyone enlighten me about what is going on?

[Ken Burch]

1. Centrists have done the same thing, at times.

It's not as if progressives are the only ones who ever "took their ball and went home".

[Jim Sagle]

2. Actually, the centrists bought the whole stadium.

Then they arrested any actual progressives who showed up.

At least, that's the way health care went down.

[Bluebear]

5. Au contraire, this site has been pulled steadily "centrist" & rightwards.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

9. +1

[Lorien]

12. Sadly so.

and just like everyone on the Right, they are the minority, but they are extremely loud. They bully and scream and squeal until they get what they want.

[Individualist]

17. +1

[TheWraith]

21. A belief not much backed by evidence.

DUers have always been and remain among the leftest of the left.

[Forkboy]

113. "DUers have always been and remain among the leftest of the left. "

If you truly believe that you need to get out more. Come visit me and I'll introduce you to some people far, far lefter than anyone here. Our furthest left DUer isn't even close to being as far left as one can go.

[HughMoran]

115. Logical falacy

Just because there are 'more left' than the majority here, doesn't mean that DU isn't far left of even the Democratic Party.

Unless you'd like me to compare DU polls with polls of Democrats so you can see the massive contrast?

[Forkboy]

125. It's all relative.

If the poster believes that DUers are the "leftest of the left" he's wrong, with very few exceptions over the years. If he wants to include a qualifier that he only meant that among Democrats than it's far closer to being correct, and those polls you're eager to post would have some meaning.

For the most part, DUers are certainly less left than many people I know personally, and even the most lefty DUer I can think of off the top of my head isn't as left as many people I know well (for instance, I'm considered the most RW among a some of my friends, and you know me well enough here to safely put me in with the lefty contingent on DU....speaking of contrast). There's a bigger spectrum than what's seen here on DU. There's a big ole left that aren't Democrats at all, and those are the ones that make the comment, as posted, wrong.

[HughMoran]

114. As evidenced by poll after poll here.

I have no idea what all the fuss is about - we haven't changed in the least - unless a dozen out of the 100,000 makes a huge difference? It's about following the rules here and nothing more.

[mix]

120. lol nt

[Horse with no Name]

35. Yep.

I have a list of them that goes back a few years....

[proteus_lives]

95. "I have a list of them"

How progressive of you.

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

46. Hogwash.

I've been here a long time, and that is simply not the reality.

[Bluebear]

83. Well I've been here a long time too, so let's agree to disagree.

[Bonobo]

89. It has moved to the right/center. Bluebear, you are correct.

I have been here a friggin' long time.

[G_j]

109. I agree w/ that also

been here a while, DU moves further right by the day IMO

[HuckleB]

137. Whatever.

If anything, this site is far more to the left, but I guess you've convinced yourself otherwise.

What's most disheartening about DU is that evidence does not mean what it used to mean to many posters, regardless of the left-centrist issue.

[Chulanowa]

50. By "Progressives," perhaps

Sorry. 24/7 screaming about how absolutely awful every democrat in office is, no matter what, just doesn't help.

[mix]

129. Help is based on a reciprocal relation of respect. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. Yep

That's it in a nutshell.

[LWolf]

105. +1

[mix]

118. It has, but they're still wrong and progressives're right, more often than not.

It is a very interesting place DU.

[Catherina]

133. +1 n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nickinSTL]

4. I have no idea where they are going

as far as an alternative to DU.

However, if you're concerned about progressives and the Democratic Party - if you're losing their votes, they may well be going to the Greens. The Green Party is strongly behind the progressive views that I and many other progressives believe in.

If the Democratic Party wants to keep us, then we need to see action on progressive issues.

REAL health care reform, not a bill that gives a couple of improvements but to a large extent will increase the profits of insurance companies (if many interpretations of the bill are correct).

REAL movement on alternative energy, not more talk and giving in to the oil companies.

REAL movement on getting out of these insanely expensive and fruitless wars.

REAL campaign finance reform.

etc.

It's going to be hard for some of us to justify voting for Dems when we get more corporatists who talk a good game but never deliver on the issues we care about.

To keep progressives, Dems need to stop selling us out while using progressive action to get votes. Simple as that.

(hoping that the discussion of another party won't get this post deleted - I'm trying to point out what the Democratic Party needs to do to keep the progressive vote - references to the other party is intended to be illustrative of the challenges facing the Democratic Party on that front, not to imply support for that other party)

[haikugal]

14. Just the mention

of the Green Party causes you to post a disclaimer? That's a shame...I agree with everything you've said.

[treestar]

6. It's not enough people to worry about

Just disruptors here.

[Barack_America]

8. Many of those "disruptors" worked their asses off to get Obama elected.

If you're hoping for Obama to get reelected, their absence should concern you.

[treestar]

23. I don't believe them

the voters voted in Obama and a Democratic Congress - I wish these people would quit taking credit for the voters as though they are widgets to be delivered and then act like they can demand whatever they personally want of the POTUS like he should be their puppet.

then they accuse him of "caving to the corporations" and other crap of this nature - well doesn't he know that he should cave to them instead, since they "got him elected?"

Really stupid shit.

Again, they are not numerous enough and surely a few DUers did not elect a D president all by themselves - even if they really did do a little work for it, they are a very small part of that and easy to replace - with reasonable people.

[Barack_America]

I volunteered with them.

Going door-to-door during the primaries, registering voters, election day.

I saw what they did to get Obama elected. And not many of them are planning to volunteer for him again.

That is a problem.

[treestar]

34. Erm, no it is not

There are not that many of them, and they can be replaced.

I don't see why they should lord it over the rest of us, either.

Or feel so entitled to.

[WillyT]

42. Jesus... It's That Kind Of Thinking That's Going To Bring It All Down...

When the margins of future victories get smaller and smaller... you're gonna need all the help, and EVERY VOTE, you can get.

:wtf:

[Skittles]

81. it's useless trying to argue with them, WillyT

believe me, it is a huge waste of time

[EFerrari]

86. isn't that a great recruiting tool for the party, "You can be replaced"

LOL

[treestar]

107. If you are a small enough minority, of course

If you are crazy and unreasonable, and refuse to deal with reality of just who the voters are, why should you boss everyone around? Why should a tiny minority of unreasonable unrealistic people call the shots?

It treats the voters like they are nobodies who are manipulated by these alleged internet campaign workers - and that's why we should be dancing to their tune. If that were so, Obama would have lost in the primaries to (left wing favorite here). If they were so effective at delivering the mindless voters, why not do so in the primaries, and then work on those mindless automatons to put real progressives into office?

In fact why not do it for Congress, why just the POTUS? It seems they thought the POTUS has unlimited powers and Congress are just similar puppets to be delivered - no minds of their own.

[EFerrari]

130. There only one treating others as if they are "nobodies" here is you on this thread.

[H2O Man]

103. It often appears

to be the goal.

[treestar]

106. So we are to let the far left push us around?

That's a recipe for losing big time and living in Republicans lala land.

[WillyT]

126. The Left... Are The Ones Who Historically Pushed For The Things YOU Take For Granted Today !!!

Civil liberties
Civil Rights
GLBT Rights
Ethical conservation
Economic progressivism
Economic interventionism
Efficiency Movement
Environmental justice
Fair trade
Feminism
Labor rights
Anti-racism
Positive liberty
Social justice
Social progressivism
Techno-progressivism
Social welfare
Women's rights
Women's suffrage
Square Deal
New Nationalism
The New Freedom
New Deal
Second Bill of Rights
Fair Deal
New Frontier
Great Society

Just to name a few.

You think the MODERATES came up with any of these ideas??? All of the ideas were RADICAL at the time!

:shrug:

[NorthCarolina]

123. That's precisely the plan...and it seems to be working for the conservatives. eom

[Kalyke]

108. Erm... yea it is.

Obama was elected on the backs of the young and Americans age 18 to 29 identify themselves as Democrats (or “lean” Democratic) over Republicans by a 58 to 33 percent margin.

Your anecdotal evidence is lacking.

[Donnachaidh]

146. 'They can be replaced'

How VERY 'big tent' of you.

of course, if it's sheeple you want, keep dragging this place to the right. :eyes:

[Tarheel_Dem]

41. You do realize that by the time '12 comes around a lot of brand new 18 yr olds

will be volunteering & replacing the dropouts, right? You guys have a large presence at sites like this, but in the real world....not so much. We'll be fine in '12, and if not, self identified progressives should be more scared than anyone. Once this president leaves office, whether it be in '12 or '16, this country is gonna swing so far right, it's gonna make heads spin.

But as long as "progressives" can say they stood by their "principles", what else matters? We saw this play in 2000, and it's still getting bad reviews, 10 yrs. later. Maybe St. Ralph will save us all again.:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

48. young people were inspired because they perceived obama would not be a status quo president.

i don't think you can count on that enthusiasm next time.

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. Well what ever will we do when the wsws leave us? Taken a poll have you?

There's a poll floating around here somewhere that says that 86% of self identified "liberals" approve of this president. It's anybody's guess as to whether that translates into votes 2.5 years from now, but we'll have to wait and see, huh?

[Hannah Bell]

65. i know that almost all the young people i know who were enthusiastic during the

campaign are less so now.

yes, we'll wait & see.

[Tarheel_Dem]

72. I guess it depends on the circles one travels in, huh? Not hearing that.

In fact, I hear the exact opposite. I guess we could all spout anecdotes 'til the cows come home, but just because you say it on the internet, doesn't make it so. Thanks for playing....

[Hannah Bell]

91. nor because you say so. we'll see.

[Tarheel_Dem]

98. Nader in '12, comrade!

:toast:

[Hannah Bell]

99. i know it's difficult for you to believe, but i have never voted for anyone but a democrat for

the presidency.

i voted for obama.

everything i wrote in my post was 100% truthful & sincere. the young people i know who were enthusiastic about obama are now less so. the job situation and the war are the two biggest reasons.

i'm sure we do "run in different circles". my block has a meth house and a couple of foreclosed houses.

[Tarheel_Dem]

100. Your block is no different than thousands of others across the nation.

My circle is not limited, and I deal with people from all walks of life. As Michael Steele would say, "that's just the way I roll". Not doubting your democratic bona fides, but most of us don't feel the need to make such a pronouncement. It's kind of like, "one of my best friend's is black", when in reality it's just a co-worker that you've never interacted with, outside the office. It has a hollow ring to it. You know what I mean?

[Hannah Bell]

139. no, i don't know what you mean. i interact with my neighbors every day.

today i'm helping one set load their moving van. their house was auctioned last week. if you find this hollow, i don't care. it's quite real.

[Kalyke]

119. OK, so I'll provide statistical numbers... and you're wrong.

In Pew Research’s February 2010 survey, 57% of Millennials approved of the way Obama was handling his job as president, down from 73% in February 2009.

http://theamericano.com/2010/02/25/obama-and-the-dems-losing-the-young-vote/

So you must be the one who runs in a statistically odd circle.

[Tarheel_Dem]

142. I smell a bit of rightwing & uber leftwing propaganda. Don't like your source.

"Please sign in so you can quickly access today's top Conservative Hispanic news and commentary".

Not sure why you would share that particular link here. I know that some on the far left (Jane Hamsher) have joined ranks with the teabaggers, so I'll wait for another source. Besides, weren't we talking about those who would come of age by the time 2012 rolls around? Not sure how a poll taken today would predict what happens 2 years from now?

[EFerrari]

144. The Pew Research Center isn't good enough?

LOL

[fishbulb703]

145. College kid here. Obama is perceived as a huge let-down. "What?! We have to BUY insurance?!" nt

[Missy Vixen]

59. Have you read the analysis of the "youth vote" lately?

The under-25's that volunteered for Obama's campaign are disillusioned, and highly unlikely to get involved again, according to three different articles I've read in less than a month.

They're in serious trouble. They've lost the youth, which were the "boots on the ground" of most of the volunteer effort this time around, and the progressives, which gave till it hurt for the last election, and were the folks standing outside freezing their asses off in DC on Inauguration Day.

Keep telling yourself it's just fine, though.

-MV
voted Obama in 2008, voted Kerry in '04, member of the Democratic Party since 1979

[Tarheel_Dem]

62. Link? (nt)

[Missy Vixen]

67. Sorry. I'm not doing your research for you.

If you doubt my assertions, you're free to Google search it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. I thought not. That's the problem with unsubstantiated "assertions".

Anyone can claim anything, and some folks will believe it without a shred of evidence. You're funny.:rofl:

[Kalyke]

122. Oh... it took me about two minutes. Why can't you do it?

http://theamericano.com/2010/02/25/obama-and-the-dems-losing-the-young-vote/

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1518/millennials-panel-three-politics-midterms-obama

http://skekoa.wordpress.com/2010/05/13/the-millennials/

[Missy Vixen]

149. Thank you, Kalyke

I appreciate your posting of supporting links.

Somehow, though, I'm thinking the party in question wouldn't read or believe them unless they bit him or her in the face, and maybe not even then.

I hope you had a good weekend.
-MV

[Missy Vixen]

140. You'll get your answers in November.

In the meantime, have fun with the other ostriches. If you claim to not have heard or read anything about the unhappiness and disillusion of those who worked to get Barack Obama into the White House, (which has been WIDELY reported,) you're even funnier than I am.

:eyes:

[Tarheel_Dem]

143. .....

:rofl:

[girl gone mad]

63. I know a lot of soon to be 18 year olds.

Not one of them is the least bit inspired by Obama (or any other national politician, for that matter).

You'll be in for the shock of your life if you are counting on these kids to swing the election for Dems. I do understand what the DLC/centrist strategy is and how they hope to play younger minorities against older whites. It's a grave miscalculation, in my opinion, because young people don't want to play that game.

[Tarheel_Dem]

66. In a country of 300 million, you know what all the 18 y.o.'s are thinking?

I'll take solid evidence over your anecdotes, if you don't mind. Seems to me the miscalculation was the fact that he won in the first place. Lots of folks said it would never happen, including you, I'll fathom.

[girl gone mad]

94. Then you would fathom wrongly.

I supported Obama in the primaries and worked very hard for his campaign, in addition to large financial donations.

I'm pretty good at spotting trends; it's actually a big part of my job.

Obama was popular with young people in 2008. Unfortunately, that fad has run it's course and, as with any fad, once the initial popularity wanes, you can't get it back.

He could have been so much more than a fad, and that's the real shame here. I think young people were looking for something real, not just a cleverly marketed run-of-the-mill politician.

I've noticed that this administration is in the habit of overpromising and underdelivering. They did it on health insurance reform, the stimulus bill, financial reform, and now they're doing it again with the Gulf disaster. But campaign Obama also overpromised and underdelivered. Ask anyone with marketing experience and they will tell you that this is a rookie mistake few products ever overcome.

[Tarheel_Dem]

97. More anecdotes? And not a single link. Gee thanks. A lot of that going around tonite.

:eyes:

[mix]

124. I work with young people and that too is my read of the Obama fad, great post. nt

[EFerrari]

87. The youth vote is progressive. So bashing progressives

while claiming the youth vote makes no sense at all, does it?

[Chulanowa]

51. On the other hand, so did I

And many of those I canvassed with are very confident that they will do it again in 2012.

The problem is that a lot of Democrats are only in it because it's stylish.

[depakid]

58. Denialism and conspiracy theory aren't the healthiest ways to deal with cognitivie dissonance.

[LooseWilly]

85. What could go wrong if progressives vote Green, right?

I challenge anyone to come up with a single instance, or even a single theory, about how progressives voting Green could make any difference whatsoever...

[Catherina]

136. "they are a very small part of that and easy to replace - with reasonable people."

Good luck with that Rahm.

[yurbud]

11. have you ever looked at polls of progressives versus DLCers here?

There's maybe a dozen DLCers here, and that's not subtracting for those with multiple accounts so they can amen their own threads.

There are only ''centrist'' Democratic politicians, not voters, since centrist is a euphemism for corporate water boy.

[flvegan]

16. A dozen?

:rofl:

Count again.

[yurbud]

19. I was being generous.

[yurbud]

22. Here's a poll I did a couple of years ago that got a pretty big response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5567638&mesg_id=5567638

Maybe two dozen if you give the DLCers the moderates too, but I'll bet some people who call themselves moderates are actually cultural conservatives, not corporate tools.

[WeDidIt]

37. Um dude, first rule of polls, self selected sampling is meaningless

and any DU poll is a self selected sample.

[yurbud]

76. someone implied that progressives were a disruptive minority on DU. How would you like to measure

who's here?

[yurbud]

77. so DLCers love to start a lot of threads and shout down others, but not vote in polls?

that makes a lot of sense.

[salguine]

29. "Centrist" is NOT a euphemism for corporate water boy. A centrist

IS a corporate water boy.

[yurbud]

79. ha! so are most conservatives.

[William Z. Foster]

15. naw

70% of the population or so would no doubt fall into that category were they to come here and post for a while. Nothing to worry about. Bunch of disruptors. If they won't get in line and shut up, who needs 'em?

[treestar]

24. What? You think 70% of the population are left wing progressives

who don't like anything at all that the government is now doing?

Talk about living in a fantasyland.

[MannyGoldstein]

68. Actually - I Think The Evidence Says Yes

They may not know what to call themselves - but the evidence is that they really want liberal/progressive policies:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8588613

[guruoo]

26. Many progressives expected Obama to to move the country back to the left the same way that Bush

moved it to the right. In other words, they expected Obama to rule like some sort of left wing dictator.
When he failed to meet their expectations, they turned against him.

[MannyGoldstein]

57. We expected a return to the rule of law

We expected an end to war crimes, and prosecution of war criminals

We expected an active attempt to fulfill campaign promises

We expected truthfulness

Doesn't sound like a "left wing dictator" to me.

[guruoo]

74. That's entirely a matter of opinion. n/t

[EFerrari]

92. That's what the tea klanners say about Obama

and has no relation to progressives whatsoever.

[guruoo]

148. Then I suppose we'll just have to

agree to disagree.

[emilyg]

I think you're wrong.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

7. I wish I knew.

[RainDog]

10. some people are deciding not to give a fuck

even if they're still here.

if the democratic party wants to be to the right of the Eisenhower administration, then some people don't want to be a part of that. some people don't think the greens have the savvy to have sway at the national level, but support greens or liberals where they live.

some people see what happened with HCR and think that the nation is too fucked up and just wish they could get the hell out and live in a more democratic country - one that actually gives a fuck about someone other than the CEO of Eli Lily or BP.

some people see the media act like the teabaggers are some big important group and remember the millions who marched against the illegal invasion of Iraq and have stopped paying for cable news, too.

the Weimar Republic fell because those in power so hated the left/socialists that they let the fascist/nationalists come into their homes and beat the shit out of them. here, we just see people living in tents - because people here don't fight back b/c people here think this is the best we can do, and as long as they think that... it is.

[SidDithers]

13. I'm sure you'll be getting a PM from some of them...

inviting you to join their own little site.

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. He already has. The o.p. is bogus. All these GBCW threads have one purpose.

It's all been coordinated, and planned elsewhere. They even had their own mod, and bragged about it. Thankfully, he finally got the pizza.

[CBR]

101. That is so pathetic. If they were really in to changing

society, I think they would focus a little less on coordinating messages on DU.

[Barack_America]

112. Um, his conspiracy theory is what is bogus.

I haven't received any PM's.

Last message in my inbox was from Skinner regarding the last fundraiser.

[Barack_America]

111. OP here. No PM's received.

Sorry to bust up your little conspiracy theory there.

[iamthebandfanman]

116. o i love conspiracies! do tell more! n/t

[angrycarpenter]

18. It no longer has as much appeal for me as it once did.

The sense of a common goal in the face of an oppressive political climate gave this place a a very human feel lacking in most places.

My anti-authoritarian rants used to go over very well here but now I rarely bother.

Even so, I am here every single day but my anger is now more of a bored kind of despair, the GOP, the teabaggers, and now even the democrats see us as a nuisance at best and an enemy at worst.

We are irrelevant, maybe we always were. Our only purpose is to serve as a handy scapegoat or boogyman for political opportunists.

[Barack_America]

20. :(

:hug:

[RainDog]

32. no, the left is not irrelevant

if you look at history you will see that the left has been the group that has brought this nation forward - the group that has improved the quality of life for all in this nation - and you'll see that the powers-that-be have opposed this. Those we elect (who are only mouthpieces for the p-t-b) unfortunately, end up sucking corporate or mil/industrial/oil cock, for the most part. over and over again. (this is in no way meant to be a slur against the gay community, btw. - prostitutes either, at least when they're honest about the work.)

those who don't offer fealty to power are constantly ridiculed by those who care more about their own wealth than they do about the principles that make the entire world a better place -- others are too f-ing stupid to see their interests are not served by the power structure as it exists.

the changes that occur occur because of groups that pressure the c.s-ers.

No matter what the southern baptist and mormons or catholics do - the force of history is on the side of civil rights for the glbt community. Those who take the side of liberty and equality rather than religious assholish-ness will prevail as they have for centuries now. Yes there are set backs along the way, but overall, the force of history is against the right wingers and the religious nutters - but, of course, only because people insist on the pursuit of equality - and insist as groups that put pressure on the govt.

We effect change by aligning ourselves in communities, whether real or virtual, that work to achieve change by challenging the status quo.

We effect change by creating lives that reflect our values and by rejecting those who stand in opposition to those values. If the U.S. has to go to hell in order for people to buy a clue, well, sadly, so be it. Western Europe went through hell and came out of it with more democratic principles than this nation. Of course, they also killed a bunch of the fascists, but a bunch of the socialists died too. Nevertheless, WWII was a victory for the people because social democracy won in the fight against the fascists.

[fadedrose]

25. As a progressive, wish I knew where to go to post

Am tired of being the "problem" to the moderate DLC'ers.

Can't get over Lanny Davis bashing progressives on Ed Shultz last week. Didn't vote for him, never did, never will. But he spoke as though he represents the REAL democrats...

DU is a place I used to love but feel that evertime I express my opinion on anything I am going to be attacked by an organized group that seems to lie in wait for people like me.

Just call me paranoid.

[Individualist]

28. DLC isn't moderate

Moderate is a label they try and hide behind when, in fact, they're neocon enablers.

[fadedrose]

30. I stand corrected and you are right . . . eom

[lpbk2713]

38. What was that about laying in wait every time ?

[mix]

127. Well said.

DLC are market ideologues as well, neocon enablers and neoliberal missionaries.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pundaint]

78. But some of us like to hear you voice your point of view too.

Screw those who wont hear, and don't let the capitulators shut you up! For added fun, post in haikku!

principled country
kept in fear by oppressors
liberals get it

[NorthCarolina]

128. Doesn't matter where Progressive go. The DLC New Dems will simply infiltrate

that venue as well. If you want to see a more Progressive DU, then simply "ignore" those obvious DLC New Dem posters. They are easily identifiable by their posts. For instance, they will periodically start a nonsensical anti-Kucinich post with little more than a misleading bullet point headline. It will usually revolve around some sort of perceived "hypocrisy", but will be nothing more than a statement with zero analysis of the thought process behind the vote/position itself. The DLC New Dems of course flock to support the OP of that thread that their co-worker started, and you can go through clicking "ignore", "ignore", "ignore". Like shooting fish in a barrel.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salguine]

27. Are you sure they're all going to the same place?

[Barack_America]

31. No idea.

They could be dropping out entirely for all I know.

[salguine]

43. Some are dropping out entirely. I know a LOT who have joined the Greens. One of them

said to me, "I didn't walk away from the Democratic Party—the Democratic Party walked away from me." I had to admit it was hard to argue with him.

[HuckleB]

44. Are the Greens registration numbers up dramatically?

[nickinSTL]

54. not last I heard

(but, to be fair, I haven't looked)

However, in Illinois, the Green candidate for Governor is polling at 9% (still short of the 10% he garnered in 2006) and the Green candidate for Senate is polling at 14%.

Both are fairly healthy numbers for a third party candidate in this country.

To be fair, the high numbers can pretty easily be explained by the disaster that is Illinois politics.

The current Governor, while he seems to be basically a good guy fighting to fix the mess here, has been spectacularly ineffectual in the face of a refusal by Dems in the legislature to play ball, and the Senate race is undoubtedly the way it is because a lot of people who would usually support a Dem are turned off by Giannoulias' banking ties (perceived or real) to Tony Rezko.

[ProSense]

33. Olbermann angrily left Kos?

That means progressives are going somewhere?

Did you see Olbermann's tweet? He thinks Obama is one of the smartest people ever elected and credits him for frequent successes. Progressives who support the Democratic Party aren't going anywhere.

[KonaKane]

36. I think we could have done without KO's thinskinned temper tantrum

That really made him look like a child.

[Hannah Bell]

49. no it didn't.

[jonnyblitz]

40. there was a thread the other day about him leaving. he wrote

a "goodbye cruel word" post at KOS and somebody did a partial cut and paste with link here. I am surprised you didn't see the thread.

[WeDidIt]

39. What I love are so-called "progressives" who laud FDR as some example of progressive virtue

Had any of those so-called "progressives" actually lived during the FDR adminsitration, given how they lambast Obama they would have DESPISED FDR.

It's easy to look back and find some "golden age" the reality is much different from the sappy nostalgia, though. FDR had huge Democratic majorities and his New Deal moved much more slowly than Obama's agenda has been and the real effect of the implemented legislation was much lower. It would take decades to improve upon social Security and the rest to the point where they are today.

I'd love to see things progress much faster and see a broader progressive agenda. I realize that political reality hinders that. I take the successes where I can find them.

[HuckleB]

45. +1

[Chulanowa]

52. I find deep irony in them calling themselves "Progressives"

Considering "progressive" is, in politics, just another word for "centrist" - first applied to American politics by Roosevelt's Progressive party. It was a party that didn't like where the right-wing Republicans of the time were going... Nor did it want the radical changes and leftism from, well, the left.

They advocated slow, measured, paced change. Not too much, not enough to hurt anyone, but progress towards some mix of right and left that would benefit everyone. Thus the name "progressive" - as opposed to "radical" or "conservative"

I know progressives. Most modern progressives are nothing of the sort. Going by the rhetoric, they are in fact radicals.

[Marr]

84. "Slow, measured, paced change"? Huh?

From their party platform: "...to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task..."

Not exactly "moderate" rhetoric. Seems to me that they would've been radicals, too, compared to our corporate servants.

[MannyGoldstein]

55. FDR Did Stuff To Help The Average American - FAST

He stopped the precipitous plummet of the economy, and put people to work. He moved, and he moved fast. He was a practitioner of "bold and persistent" experimentation, and he wasn't afraid that the Economic Royalists and similar parasites might get mad at him.

Not perfect by any means - but can you imagine, for example, Obama giving FDR's first inaugural address? Not in a billion years.

[grantcart]

64. Actually that is not true

For the record FDR is my favorite President but his actions immediately after becoming President elect were neither fast nor helpful.

After he was elected Hoover became alarmed at the increasing speed of bank foreclosures and the collapse of the system and was worried about a lack of action that would take place in an extended lame duck administration (In those days the new President didn't take over until March.)

Hoover made FDR an offer to basically back any proposal that FDR wanted and send it to Congress. He offered to meet with FDR in any public setting and announce any joint effort that FDR wanted.

FDR made the decision that he wanted to wait until he took the oath and blast through the gates with a spectacular 100 day marathon of action.



Now we tend to look back at FDR with rose colored glasses because of the great things that were achieved OVER 12 YEARS OF PRESIDENCY.

The fact is that during the time of being President elect FDR's inaction accelerated Bank runs, this caused hundreds of thousands of businesses to go out of business and dramatically increased unemployment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FDR#First_term.2C_1933.E2.80.931937

After the election, Roosevelt refused Hoover's requests for a meeting to come up with a joint program to stop the downward spiral and calm investors, claiming it would tie his hands. The economy spiraled downward until the banking system began a complete nationwide shutdown as Hoover's term ended.<42> In February 1933, Roosevelt escaped a possible assassination attempt by Giuseppe Zangara (which killed Chicago Mayor Anton Cermak sitting next to him).<43[br />

By the evening of March 4, 32 of the 48 states, as well as the District of Columbia had closed their banks.<45> The New York Federal Reserve Bank was unable to open on the 5th, as huge sums had been withdrawn by panicky customers in previous days.




By any objective standard Obama's actions during the period of being "President Elect" were much more effective than FDR's which was exactly nothing

Also forgotten by most people is that before he was sworn in FDR barely survived an assassination (which killed the mayor of Chicago) attempt by this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HegHSi5_SZk

[MannyGoldstein]

69. You're saying that President FDR was great, but President-elect FDR was not?

He may well not have trusted Hoover, who'd be the one to implement policy until FDR's inauguration. Then FDR would take office with a tarnished reputation if Hoover fucked things up again.

BTW, Hoover's economic policies were essentially the same as Obama's: http://harpers.org/archive/2009/06/hbc-90005235

Can we agree that once FDR became president, he was basically good?

[grantcart]

75. Its not that as President Elect it wasn't good - it was a huge disaster

I love FDR and have read every biography I can.

But people see him with rose colored glasses.

His imprisonment of Japanese Americans in concentration camps while their personal property was stolen was the worst single action - (with the notable exception of starting needless wars) taken by a President.

It was compounded by the fact that no Japanese in Hawaii were interned despite the fact that it was known to be a haven for real Japanese spies while Japanese on the West Coast were taken from places where the liklihood of a Japanese spy network was exactly zero - I don't think that the Japanese Imperial War Cabinet could find Spokane on a map.


FDR learned from his mistakes. His accomplishments were great. But we should look at them realistically when comparing them to Obama. FDR was President for 12 years and Obama 2.

[girl gone mad]

96. Let's talk facts, not historical revisionism.

This was Day One of the FDR administration:

“…the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance….This Nation asks for action, and action now…Our greatest primary task is to put people to work. This is no unsolvable problem if we face it wisely and courageously. It can be accomplished in part by direct recruiting by the Government itself, treating the task as we would treat the emergency of a war…

There are many ways in which it can be helped, but it can never be helped merely by talking about it….

We must act and act quickly…in our progress toward a resumption of work we require two safeguards AGAINST A RETURN OF THE EVILS OF THE OLD ORDER there must be a strict supervision of all banking and credits and investments; there must be an end to speculation with other people’s money..There are the lines of attack. I shall presently urge upon a new Congress in special session detailed measures for their fulfillment…we now realize as we have never realized before our interdependence on each other; that we can not merely take but we must give as well; that if we are to go forward, we must move as a trained and loyal army willing to sacrifice for the good of a common discipline, because without such discipline no progress is made, no leadership becomes effective.

Pay attention to this next part, please:

“But in the event that the Congress shall fail …I shall not evade the clear course of duty that will then confront me. I shall ask the Congress for the one remaining instrument to meet the crisis—broad Executive power to wage a war against the emergency, as great as the power that would be given to me if we were in fact invaded by a foreign foe.”

Got that? On day one, FDR called on the people to support him without fear. He told the Republicans in congress and the Supreme court, work with me or face the US Army. Not a revolution, but a revolt to “provide for the general welfare" as FDR believed was his duty by oath!

I can tolerate many things in this world, but not lies about Franklin Roosevelt - and on a Democratic message board, no less.

Please, educate yourself.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/history/2009/02/12/the-first-100-days-franklin-roosevelt-pioneered-the-100-day-concept.html">FDR's first 100 days:

"When Roosevelt took power on March 4, 1933, many influential Americans doubted the capacity of a democratic government to act decisively enough to save the country," writes historian Anthony Badger in FDR: The First Hundred Days . "Machine guns guarded government buildings. The newspapers and his audience responded most enthusiastically to Roosevelt's promises in his inaugural to assume wartime powers if necessary. That sense of emergency certainly made Congress willing to give FDR unprecedented power." Adds political scientist William Leuchtenburg in The FDR Years: "Roosevelt came to office at a desperate time, in the fourth year of a worldwide depression that raised the gravest doubts about the future of Western civilization."

The new president immediately established a new, infectious atmosphere of optimism. Even Sen. Hiram Johnson, a Republican from California, conceded, "The admirable trait in Roosevelt is that he has the guts to try.... He does it all with the rarest good nature.... We have exchanged for a frown in the White House a smile. Where there were hesitation and vacillation, weighing always the personal political consequences, feebleness, timidity, and duplicity, there are now courage and boldness and real action."

Roosevelt immediately called Congress into special session and kept it there for three months. He found that the Democrats who were in control were eager to do his bidding, and even some Republicans were cooperative. Raymond Moley, a member of FDR's inner circle, said many legislators "had forgotten to be Republicans or Democrats" as they worked together to relieve the crisis.

FDR quickly won congressional passage for a series of social, economic, and job-creating bills that greatly increased the authority of the federal government—the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, which supplied states and localities with federal money to help the jobless; the Civil Works Administration to create jobs during the first winter of his administration; and the Works Progress Administration, which replaced FERA, pumped money into circulation, and concentrated on longer-term projects. The Public Works Administration focused on creating jobs through heavy construction in such areas as water systems, power plants, and hospitals. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. protected bank accounts. The Civilian Conservation Corps provided jobs for unemployed young men. The Tennessee Valley Authority boosted regional development. Also approved were the Emergency Banking Act, the Farm Credit Act, and the National Industrial Recovery Act.

In all, Roosevelt got 15 major bills through Congress in his first 100 days. "Congress doesn't pass legislation anymore—they just wave at the bills as they go by," said humorist Will Rogers.

"Where there were hesitation and vacillation, weighing always the personal political consequences, feebleness, timidity, and duplicity, there are now courage and boldness and real action."

Can anyone honestly say that of Obama?

Rather, he seems to specialize in "vacillating, weighing always the personal political consequences".

[mix]

134. Your post is a willful distortion of history and a complete misreading of the Wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#The_First_Hundred_Days

[Hannah Bell]

147. Review your history. FDR's "First 100 days" are famous.

Roosevelt's legendary "First 100 Days" concentrated on the first part of his strategy: immediate relief.

From March 9 to June 16, 1933, FDR sent Congress a record number of bills, all of which passed easily.

These included the creation of the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, and the Tennessee Valley Authority.

Congress also gave the Federal Trade Commission broad new regulatory powers, and provided mortgage relief to millions of farmers and homeowners.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/First100days.htm



* The Emergency Banking Act to reopen sound banks under Treasury supervision, with federal loans if needed...

* The Glass-Steagall Act

* Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)

* The nation went off the gold standard.

* The Economy Act, to balance the "regular" federal budget by cutting the salaries of government employees and cutting pensions to veterans by fifteen percent.

* The Agricultural Adjustment Act to raise farm incomes by raising the prices farmers received by reducing total farm output.

* The Farm Credit Act

* The Emergency Farm Mortgage Act

* The National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA)...brought together leaders in each industry to design specific sets of codes for that industry; the most important provisions were anti-deflationary floors below which no company would lower prices or wages, and agreements on maintaining employment and production. In a remarkably short time, the NRA announced agreements from almost every major industry in the nation.

* The Public Works Administration: "Between July 1933 and March 1939, the PWA funded the construction of more than 34,000 projects, including airports, electricity-generating dams, and aircraft carriers; and seventy percent of the new schools and one third of the hospitals built during that time. It also electrified the Pennsylvania Railroad between New York and Washington, D.C. Its one big failure was in quality, affordable housing, building only 25,000 units in four and a half years."

* The Federal Emergency Relief Administration (FERA), $500 million appropriated to help states establish their own relief projects. It also established:

-The Civil Works Administration, to create temporary jobs for millions of unemployed.

-The Civilian Conservation Corps, which provided work for 250,000 young men 18-25. Almost immediately, CCC work camps began to appear.

* the Tennessee Valley Authority, dam construction to curb flooding, generate electricity, and modernize the very poor farms in the Tennessee Valley.

* Repeal of Prohibition

* Puerto Rico Reconstruction Administration to promote land reform and helped small farms, promote cooperatives, crop diversification, & local industry.

* The Railroad Coordination Act

* Home Owners Loan Act (dealt with foreclosure problems)


http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma02/volpe/newdeal/hundred_... .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14665 .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Works_Administratio...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Emergency_Relief_A...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Works_Administration

[mix]

132. Great points and the political climate was poisonous in the 1930s. nt

[depakid]

56. The Bus for FDR!

:rofl:

[pundaint]

73. The problem isn't with the pace of progress, it's with the direction.

FDR recognized that a fight was necessary to wrest control from some pretty greedy folks. Obama thinks the pretty greedy folks will change if they just get a little more.

[girl gone mad]

93. FDR moved slowly?????????

In what universe?

That's an odd bit of historical revisionism coming from an alleged Democrat.

[CBR]

102. On civil rights for African-Americans he did...

he segregated the WPA and CCC, did not desegregate the military, jim crow etc...

He tops my list of presidents but we cannot look at him with rose-colored glasses.

[Bluenorthwest]

131. You foist off adjectives and assumptions and characterizations

as political discourse. Of course, for any of us to claim, as you often do, or as Andy Sullivan often does, that a fantasy you build up, 'what if we had a time machine, and could replace FDR with a grape? I KNOW what others would do, in this contrived fantasy of my own consturction!', has any actual meaning or worth. Of course, in your imagined scenarios your imaginary characters behave as you desire, they are in your imagination, living a scenario you imagine them to be in. Your fantasy life proves nothing at all.
Now in reality, many of us are part of Democratic families, and although FDR was before my time, my understanding of him and of the Democratic Party's defining principles come from my father, who heard the Fireside Chats, who was hit very hard by the depression, who served in the Navy with FDR as Commander in Chief.
Not all of us were raised in a vacuum, nor are we all youngsters. Your what if scenario is a long way to go to make an absurd, unsupported slam against those who are not as conservative as you are.

[politicasista]

150. +1 n/t

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hydra]

60. Some of us are still here

I've taken to doing this:

:popcorn:

I took a few months off after the Healthcare debacle and decided to peek in here and see how the (predictable) oil disaster had affected DU's overall feel.

Surprised to see so many diehards still, but otherwise eyes are opening. Too bad it takes such hellish things to do that.

[Cleita]

82. Frankly, we will be regrouping. However, it doesn't mean that we will

be putting ourselves out of the equation, like the Greens did. Wait and see.

[LooseWilly]

88. For many of Left Leanings, Idealists, etc.- voting for Obama was an experiment.

Many felt that politicians couldn't be trusted, that voting was a waste of time... but candidate Obama managed to capture the imagination.

Now the mystique is gone. He's a politician, nothing more... and thinking back on it— all I can think of is the Comedian's quote from "The Watchmen": "It's a joke. It's all a joke. Mother forgive me."

We'll see who the joke is on come November, and even more so in 2012...

[Bonobo]

90. LooseWilly speaks for me too. nt

[iamthebandfanman]

117. no, it was the only option.

there was no experiment, just a realization that unwanted allies must be taken.

by the time i was able to vote in the primary it had already been decided it was clinton and obama...

we already knew how the clintons thought, so we took a stab in the dark.

go figure.

[treestar]

138. I'm sure Obama is scared to death of that threat

that sounds a bit pathetic. Sort of like a romance.

[NNN0LHI]

110. Same place the "progressives" went in 2001

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/04/25/GR2005042500945.html


President Bush's Approval Ratings





See? The jokes on you.

[iamthebandfanman]

121. progressivesunderground ?!

lol ;)

[Joanne98]

135. Whenever I get pissed at centrist democrats I just pound the right harder

I figure if the RW territory is blown to bits they won't have anywhere to move too.